---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/21/11: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:41 AM - Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear (cliff dominey) 2. 05:07 AM - Re: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear (Denis Walsh) 3. 06:20 AM - Re: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear (Charles Kuss) 4. 07:41 AM - Re: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear (David Burton) 5. 11:32 AM - Re: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear (Charlie England) 6. 12:35 PM - Re: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear (Greg Young) 7. 01:00 PM - Re: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear (Linn Walters) 8. 01:00 PM - Re: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear (Linn Walters) 9. 05:33 PM - UHMW Tape - possible source of concern (vanremog@aol.com) 10. 06:19 PM - Re: UHMW Tape - possible source of concern (HCRV6@comcast.net) 11. 06:34 PM - Re: UHMW Tape - possible source of concern (Kyle Boatright) 12. 08:17 PM - Re: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear (Kelly McMullen) 13. 09:05 PM - Re: UHMW Tape - possible source of concern (Terry Watson) 14. 09:59 PM - Re: UHMW Tape - possible source of concern (Al & Gail Herron) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:41:22 AM PST US From: cliff dominey Subject: RV-List: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear I am trying to restore a damaged RV8A. Nose gear leg is stuck in the engin e mount=2C and I am thinking about heat application while it is in the hydr aulic press. >From my quick research online=2C the steel strength should not be affected so long as it is not heated beyond 40% of the melting point=2C or about 100 0 deg F. If I keep an IR thermometer on it during the attempt=2C and keep the temp below 800=2C I figure I am probably ok. But for the purpose of he at expansion=2C maybe about 500 would be enough. Any metalurists on the list? Funny things happen during that cooling down period. C Dominey csdjbtexas@live.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:26 AM PST US From: Denis Walsh Subject: Re: RV-List: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear I am not a metalologist and haven't played one. But I have talked to Harmon Lange, the builder of those legs. Go to his web site or call him on the phone. he has all the answers, and can sell you a new leg or straighten your old one, if feasible. http://www.langair.com/ On Oct 21, 2011, at 5:38 , cliff dominey wrote: > I am trying to restore a damaged RV8A. Nose gear leg is stuck in > the engine mount, and I am thinking about heat application while it > is in the hydraulic press. > From my quick research online, the steel strength should not be > affected so long as it is not heated beyond 40% of the melting > point, or about 1000 deg F. If I keep an IR thermometer on it > during the attempt, and keep the temp below 800, I figure I am > probably ok. But for the purpose of heat expansion, maybe about 500 > would be enough. > Any metalurists on the list? Funny things happen during that > cooling down period. > C Dominey > csdjbtexas@live.com > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:24 AM PST US From: Charles Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear Cliff -The gear legs are heat treated. Re-heating will destroy that. Best to or der new parts. Charlie --- On Fri, 10/21/11, cliff dominey wrote: From: cliff dominey Subject: RV-List: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear =0A=0A=0A=0AI am trying to restore a damaged RV8A.- Nose gear leg is stuc k in the engine mount, and I am thinking about heat application while it is in the hydraulic press.=0AFrom my quick research online, the steel strengt h should not be affected so long as it is not heated beyond 40% of the melt ing point, or about 1000 deg F.- If I keep an IR thermometer on it during the attempt, and keep the temp below 800, I figure I am probably ok.- Bu t for the purpose of heat expansion, maybe about 500 would be enough.=0AAny metalurists on the list?- Funny things happen during that cooling down p eriod.=0AC Dominey=0Acsdjbtexas@live.com =0A=0A ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:26 AM PST US From: "David Burton" Subject: Re: RV-List: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear This is a much more complex problem then just the melting point of steel. The atoms in steels have been specifically arranged during manufacturing to produce the desired mechanical properties. There are many complex structures in the steel at an atomic level. You can influence these properties by applying both heat or cold. The sinking of the Titanic is an example of this. The atomic structure of the steel (and its strength) was altered by the cold water temperatures causing the rivets to fail at a fraction of their room temperature strength. This was an unknown property at the time. While this property is transitory and changes with temperature, the altering of the atomic structure of the material by heat, impact or deformation is permanent until altered by the application of these inputs again. Where this can bite you badly is by inadvertently heating a localized area of a larger piece. The entire part doesn't get very hot, but some small part of it does. The large part can act as a heat sink causing rapid cooling of the small area that has been heated. This is exactly like quenching a knife blade to make it hard enough to allow it to hold an edge. This hard and brittle localized area in an larger area of softer material will cause stresses to concentrate there and cause cracking. This was identified as a huge problem with untrained people welding hitches onto vehicles which subsequently failed at weld/frame junction (not the weld itself) that it was outlawed. You may have noticed that aftermarket hitches are all bolted on now. Only a certified welder is allowed to weld a hitch on and most insurance companies are not OK with allowing even them to do this. You can probably carefully warm the engine mount enough to help loosen the gear leg without danger. You probably shouldn't apply heat to the leg. Striking the parts can help to loosen the bond between them. You must be careful to use a soft non-ferrous hammer or drift so you don't damage the parts. The bond that is preventing you from separating the two parts is frequently caused by corrosion products, so using a penetrating oil can be useful. Use one safe for steel. Use a lot, over a long period of time. It make take quite a while for the oil to wick through the entire joint. I am suspicious that in your case the engine mount has been deformed by the impact that caused the damage to the aircraft and this is preventing the gear leg from being removed. The impact to the engine mount may have done other damage to it and having the mount inspected might be wise. I'm sure you are like me and want to do this yourself. I suspect that if you get this problem to the engine mount manufacturer they can solve it for you. It might involve removing a section of the mount and replacing it. They can do this without damaging the gear leg. Finding out at this point that the mount is bent or cracked would be preferable to having problems later... Good luck, David (Former material scientist and accident investigator) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:32:29 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear On 10/21/2011 06:38 AM, cliff dominey wrote: > I am trying to restore a damaged RV8A. Nose gear leg is stuck in the > engine mount, and I am thinking about heat application while it is in > the hydraulic press. > From my quick research online, the steel strength should not be > affected so long as it is not heated beyond 40% of the melting point, > or about 1000 deg F. If I keep an IR thermometer on it during the > attempt, and keep the temp below 800, I figure I am probably ok. But > for the purpose of heat expansion, maybe about 500 would be enough. > Any metalurists on the list? Funny things happen during that cooling > down period. > C Dominey > csdjbtexas@live.com > If it's rust that's causing your problem, try googling 'acetone and automatic transmission fluid'. Charlie (It works for me; I now keep a pump-oil can handy when working on old equipment.) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:14 PM PST US From: "Greg Young" Subject: RE: RV-List: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear Since you have the mount off try using your rivet gun with a flush set to tap on the end of the gear leg. It doesn't have to be real strong - about the same as for AN3 rivets. It works like magic to install and remove the close tolerance spar bolts where brute force fails. It's a good idea to prep it with penetrating oil like Kroil. It's excellent but hard to find. Greg Young From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 12:54 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear On 10/21/2011 06:38 AM, cliff dominey wrote: I am trying to restore a damaged RV8A. Nose gear leg is stuck in the engine mount, and I am thinking about heat application while it is in the hydraulic press. >From my quick research online, the steel strength should not be affected so long as it is not heated beyond 40% of the melting point, or about 1000 deg F. If I keep an IR thermometer on it during the attempt, and keep the temp below 800, I figure I am probably ok. But for the purpose of heat expansion, maybe about 500 would be enough. Any metalurists on the list? Funny things happen during that cooling down period. C Dominey csdjbtexas@live.com If it's rust that's causing your problem, try googling 'acetone and automatic transmission fluid'. Charlie (It works for me; I now keep a pump-oil can handy when working on old equipment.) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:14 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear Get Kroil from Kano Labs. Google 'kroil' for a special deal. And don't blow it off for price. The stuff is worth it. Linn On 10/21/2011 3:20 PM, Greg Young wrote: > > Since you have the mount off try using your rivet gun with a flush set > to tap on the end of the gear leg. It doesn't have to be real strong > -- about the same as for AN3 rivets. It works like magic to install > and remove the close tolerance spar bolts where brute force fails. > It's a good idea to prep it with penetrating oil like Kroil. It's > excellent but hard to find. > > Greg Young > > *From:*owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Charlie England > *Sent:* Friday, October 21, 2011 12:54 PM > *To:* rv-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear > > On 10/21/2011 06:38 AM, cliff dominey wrote: > > I am trying to restore a damaged RV8A. Nose gear leg is stuck in the > engine mount, and I am thinking about heat application while it is in > the hydraulic press. > > From my quick research online, the steel strength should not be > affected so long as it is not heated beyond 40% of the melting point, > or about 1000 deg F. If I keep an IR thermometer on it during the > attempt, and keep the temp below 800, I figure I am probably ok. But > for the purpose of heat expansion, maybe about 500 would be enough. > > Any metalurists on the list? Funny things happen during that cooling > down period. > > C Dominey > > csdjbtexas@live.com > > If it's rust that's causing your problem, try googling 'acetone and > automatic transmission fluid'. > > Charlie > (It works for me; I now keep a pump-oil can handy when working on old > equipment.) > > * * > * * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:16 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear Get Kroil from Kano Labs. Google 'kroil' for a special deal. And don't blow it off for price. The stuff is worth it. Linn On 10/21/2011 3:20 PM, Greg Young wrote: > > Since you have the mount off try using your rivet gun with a flush set > to tap on the end of the gear leg. It doesn't have to be real strong > -- about the same as for AN3 rivets. It works like magic to install > and remove the close tolerance spar bolts where brute force fails. > It's a good idea to prep it with penetrating oil like Kroil. It's > excellent but hard to find. > > Greg Young > > *From:*owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Charlie England > *Sent:* Friday, October 21, 2011 12:54 PM > *To:* rv-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear > > On 10/21/2011 06:38 AM, cliff dominey wrote: > > I am trying to restore a damaged RV8A. Nose gear leg is stuck in the > engine mount, and I am thinking about heat application while it is in > the hydraulic press. > > From my quick research online, the steel strength should not be > affected so long as it is not heated beyond 40% of the melting point, > or about 1000 deg F. If I keep an IR thermometer on it during the > attempt, and keep the temp below 800, I figure I am probably ok. But > for the purpose of heat expansion, maybe about 500 would be enough. > > Any metalurists on the list? Funny things happen during that cooling > down period. > > C Dominey > > csdjbtexas@live.com > > If it's rust that's causing your problem, try googling 'acetone and > automatic transmission fluid'. > > Charlie > (It works for me; I now keep a pump-oil can handy when working on old > equipment.) > > * * > * * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:31 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: UHMW Tape - possible source of concern From: vanremog@aol.com As one of the earlier adopters of the 3" wide UHMW tape as a protective str ip (as opposed to the older Stainless Steel tape) when placed on the curved leading edge of the flaps, I wanted to share a possible cause of concern w ith all of you. Today I was working on my car and needed a wide piece of ta pe for an application. I immediately thought of the roll of UHMW left from my building days back in the late '90s. In the process of unreeling a lengt h of this tape for use, I found that it broke on the liner like glass. I we nt thru the entire roll and it has all deteriorated to the point of unusabi lity. The roll has been stored in a closed box for the past 14 yrs, so it n ever has seen UV exposure. It breaks up in a zillion shards when flexed and so it all ended up going into the waste can. Mine was bought from US Plast ics but I would assume that all UHMW used in thin sections may have similar characteristics with age. Since the flap use application on the plane is fairly stable, I think it ma y still be okay if left undisturbed. But if it ever gets to flaking off, I would assume that it could potentially jam the mechanism upon retraction, s ince the clearance to the wing skin is tight and the sharp edge it presents could catch in the break. I would encourage you all to be aware of this po ssibility and act accordingly. If it ever starts coming off in pieces, I'll do the tedious complete remova l process from both flaps and go back to the old tried and true Stainless S teel tape, since it doesn't degrade like this. Either that or I'll place an other longer lasting strip material on the underside of the top skin where the flap curved edge wipes. YMMV -GV RV-6A flying 985hrs ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:54 PM PST US From: HCRV6@comcast.net Subject: Re: RV-List: UHMW Tape - possible source of concern Good tip GV. I have noticed that the UHMW on my flaps, now seven years old, has started to yellow. I will keep a close watch on this. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 885 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: vanremog@aol.com Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 5:21:27 PM Subject: RV-List: UHMW Tape - possible source of concern As one of the earlier adopters of the 3" wide UHMW tape as a protective strip (as opposed to the older Stainless Steel tape) when placed on the curved leading edge of the flaps, I wanted to share a possible cause of concern with all of you. Today I was working on my car and needed a wide piece of tape for an application. I immediately thought of the roll of UHMW left from my building days back in the late '90s. In the process of unreeling a length of this tape for use, I found that it broke on the liner like glass. I went thru the entire roll and it has all deteriorated to the point of unusability. The roll has been stored in a closed box for the past 14 yrs, so it never has seen UV exposure. It breaks up in a zillion shards when flexed and so it all ended up going into the waste can. Mine was bought from US Plastics but I would assume that all UHMW used in thin sections may have similar characteristics with age. Since the flap use application on the plane is fairly stable, I think it may still be okay if left undisturbed. But if it ever gets to flaking off, I would assume that it could potentially jam the mechanism upon retraction, since the clearance to the wing skin is tight and the sharp edge it presents could catch in the break. I would encourage you all to be aware of this possibility and act accordingly. If it ever starts coming off in pieces, I'll do the tedious complete removal process from both flaps and go back to the old tried and true Stainless Steel tape, since it doesn't degrade like this. Either that or I'll place another longer lasting strip material on the underside of the top skin where the flap curved edge wipes. YMMV ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:08 PM PST US From: "Kyle Boatright" Subject: Re: RV-List: UHMW Tape - possible source of concern I replaced the UHMW flap tape on my airplane a month or so ago. The wear layer had become brittle and had begun to delaminate from the other (2?) layers. Removing the wear layer was easy, but the other two layers were a bear until I checked with my friends at a local auto paint store. They pointed me towards a vinyl striping removal wheel like this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0020HQRQC/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd _p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t 1&pf_rd_i=B00063V T0G&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0SHHTFTYBF2GY0RN4ZXH Basically a 3" diameter eraser that uses friction to heat, then shear off the remaining layers of the tape. One wheel was just enough to do the job (the wheel wears down during the process). With this tool, it took 30 minutes to clean off each flap. I used one of the clear films (like for rock protection on cars) as a replacement for the UHMW. It applied easily, but it'll be a few years before I can report on how well it holds up. Kyle Boatright 2001 RV-6 ----- Original Message ----- From: vanremog@aol.com To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 8:21 Subject: RV-List: UHMW Tape - possible source of concern As one of the earlier adopters of the 3" wide UHMW tape as a protective strip (as opposed to the older Stainless Steel tape) when placed on the curved leading edge of the flaps, I wanted to share a possible cause of concern with all of you. Today I was working on my car and needed a wide piece of tape for an application. I immediately thought of the roll of UHMW left from my building days back in the late '90s. In the process of unreeling a length of this tape for use, I found that it broke on the liner like glass. I went thru the entire roll and it has all deteriorated to the point of unusability. The roll has been stored in a closed box for the past 14 yrs, so it never has seen UV exposure. It breaks up in a zillion shards when flexed and so it all ended up going into the waste can. Mine was bought from US Plastics but I would assume that all UHMW used in thin sections may have similar characteristics with age. Since the flap use application on the plane is fairly stable, I think it may still be okay if left undisturbed. But if it ever gets to flaking off, I would assume that it could potentially jam the mechanism upon retraction, since the clearance to the wing skin is tight and the sharp edge it presents could catch in the break. I would encourage you all to be aware of this possibility and act accordingly. If it ever starts coming off in pieces, I'll do the tedious complete removal process from both flaps and go back to the old tried and true Stainless Steel tape, since it doesn't degrade like this. Either that or I'll place another longer lasting strip material on the underside of the top skin where the flap curved edge wipes. YMMV -GV RV-6A flying 985hrs ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:38 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV-List: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear The previously mentioned acetone with ATF works better in penetrating and freeing parts than any commercial product, almost by a factor of 2. On 10/21/2011 12:20 PM, Greg Young wrote: > > Since you have the mount off try using your rivet gun with a flush set > to tap on the end of the gear leg. It doesnt have to be real strong > about the same as for AN3 rivets. It works like magic to install and > remove the close tolerance spar bolts where brute force fails. Its a > good idea to prep it with penetrating oil like Kroil. Its excellent > but hard to find. > > Greg Young > > *From:*owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Charlie England > *Sent:* Friday, October 21, 2011 12:54 PM > *To:* rv-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Rehab RV - Engine mount and Nose gear > > On 10/21/2011 06:38 AM, cliff dominey wrote: > > I am trying to restore a damaged RV8A. Nose gear leg is stuck in the > engine mount, and I am thinking about heat application while it is in > the hydraulic press. > > From my quick research online, the steel strength should not be > affected so long as it is not heated beyond 40% of the melting point, > or about 1000 deg F. If I keep an IR thermometer on it during the > attempt, and keep the temp below 800, I figure I am probably ok. But > for the purpose of heat expansion, maybe about 500 would be enough. > > Any metalurists on the list? Funny things happen during that cooling > down period. > > C Dominey > > csdjbtexas@live.com > > If it's rust that's causing your problem, try googling 'acetone and > automatic transmission fluid'. > > Charlie > (It works for me; I now keep a pump-oil can handy when working on old > equipment.) > > * * > * * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:24 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: UHMW Tape - possible source of concern A few years back, I used the tape that I had bought for the wear protection on my flaps and put it on the top edge of the tailgate of my pickup to protect the paint from being rubbed off by the bottom edge of the canopy rear opening window. It actually wasn't very long before it became yellow and brittle. I decided to use something else on the flaps. Unfortunately, I never got far enough on my RV-8A to need to find a better tape. Terry From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of vanremog@aol.com Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 5:21 PM Subject: RV-List: UHMW Tape - possible source of concern As one of the earlier adopters of the 3" wide UHMW tape as a protective strip (as opposed to the older Stainless Steel tape) when placed on the curved leading edge of the flaps, I wanted to share a possible cause of concern with all of you. Today I was working on my car and needed a wide piece of tape for an application. I immediately thought of the roll of UHMW left from my building days back in the late '90s. In the process of unreeling a length of this tape for use, I found that it broke on the liner like glass. I went thru the entire roll and it has all deteriorated to the point of unusability. The roll has been stored in a closed box for the past 14 yrs, so it never has seen UV exposure. It breaks up in a zillion shards when flexed and so it all ended up going into the waste can. Mine was bought from US Plastics but I would assume that all UHMW used in thin sections may have similar characteristics with age. Since the flap use application on the plane is fairly stable, I think it may still be okay if left undisturbed. But if it ever gets to flaking off, I would assume that it could potentially jam the mechanism upon retraction, since the clearance to the wing skin is tight and the sharp edge it presents could catch in the break. I would encourage you all to be aware of this possibility and act accordingly. If it ever starts coming off in pieces, I'll do the tedious complete removal process from both flaps and go back to the old tried and true Stainless Steel tape, since it doesn't degrade like this. Either that or I'll place another longer lasting strip material on the underside of the top skin where the flap curved edge wipes. YMMV -GV RV-6A flying 985hrs ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:59 PM PST US From: "Al & Gail Herron" Subject: RE: RV-List: UHMW Tape - possible source of concern My UMHW tape was installed in late 2008/early 2009, probably was ordered from Vans's no earlier than 2005. I was very disappointed in how poorly it held up, it is doing exactly as you describe, extensively cracked and in some places pieces have come off. So far I've just been keeping an eye on it, although I really should strip it off and replace it with something better. I'm not too concerned about it jamming the flaps, although it certainly is a theoretical possibility. For one thing, it's so broken up that no individual piece would be more than an inch or two wide. I think it would be more likely to catch the edge of the upper wing skin and just pop off. Definitely near the top of my squawk list though. Anyone know of a better brand of UMHW, or another alternative? I did see mention of stainless steel tape in one response. Al in Hangtown CA RV-7A, 175 hrs From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of vanremog@aol.com Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 5:21 PM Subject: RV-List: UHMW Tape - possible source of concern As one of the earlier adopters of the 3" wide UHMW tape as a protective strip (as opposed to the older Stainless Steel tape) when placed on the curved leading edge of the flaps, I wanted to share a possible cause of concern with all of you. Today I was working on my car and needed a wide piece of tape for an application. I immediately thought of the roll of UHMW left from my building days back in the late '90s. In the process of unreeling a length of this tape for use, I found that it broke on the liner like glass. I went thru the entire roll and it has all deteriorated to the point of unusability. The roll has been stored in a closed box for the past 14 yrs, so it never has seen UV exposure. It breaks up in a zillion shards when flexed and so it all ended up going into the waste can. Mine was bought from US Plastics but I would assume that all UHMW used in thin sections may have similar characteristics with age. Since the flap use application on the plane is fairly stable, I think it may still be okay if left undisturbed. But if it ever gets to flaking off, I would assume that it could potentially jam the mechanism upon retraction, since the clearance to the wing skin is tight and the sharp edge it presents could catch in the break. I would encourage you all to be aware of this possibility and act accordingly. If it ever starts coming off in pieces, I'll do the tedious complete removal process from both flaps and go back to the old tried and true Stainless Steel tape, since it doesn't degrade like this. Either that or I'll place another longer lasting strip material on the underside of the top skin where the flap curved edge wipes. YMMV -GV RV-6A flying 985hrs ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.