Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:59 PM - Engine Quit (Jim Thorne)
2. 03:23 PM - Re: Engine Quit (Paul Rice)
3. 03:33 PM - Re: Engine Quit (Mark Burns)
4. 03:41 PM - Re: Engine Quit (Bobby Hester)
5. 03:43 PM - Re: Engine Quit (Jeff Luckey)
6. 03:54 PM - Re: Engine Quit (Carl Froehlich)
7. 04:03 PM - Engaged Starter? Re: Engine Quit (Ed Anderson)
8. 04:11 PM - Re: Engine Quit (n801bh@netzero.com)
9. 06:57 PM - Re: Engine Quit (Reuven Silberman)
Message 1
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OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post
but don't know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About
a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn't quit completely so
thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the "impossible turn"
and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar.
First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way
we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a "climb out
attitude". All flows seemed to be normal.
The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over
it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps
and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more
normal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that
the spikes were when the engine wasn't running.
The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing
my story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the
P-Mag wasn't reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps,
according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the
high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly.
They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags.
The alternator, Van's Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two
separate shops. Everything was normal.
The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until
I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the
amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept
running on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying
to fly it with these same conditions.
Where do I go from here?
Jim Thorne
RV7A
Message 2
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Just an amateur thought here. Did you look at the battery? I've always k
ind of thought of it as a shock absorber for the alternator. Are the conne
ctions good/clean=2C is the battery shorting out? I don't have any experie
nce with the P mags so I don't know how they would come into play. Good lu
ckFrom: rv7a@cox.net
Subject: RV-List: Engine Quit
OK I need
some help on where to start looking.
Sorry for a long post but don=92t know how to say it without leaving
important stuff out. About a month
ago I lost power on takeoff. It
didn=92t quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I ma
de the
=93impossible turn=94 and got the plane back on the ground and taxied norma
lly to
the hangar.
First we
checked the fuel system=2C doing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew h
ow.
Even tied the tail down and ran one in a =93climb out attitude=94. All flo
ws seemed to be normal.
The next
thing was to download the Dynon data log.
In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the incident I was
producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts.
This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range then
spike again it did it several times.
It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasn=92t running.
The next was
checking the P and E mags. Brad=2C at
E-Mag=2C after hearing my story suggested I send them in. They found the c
ircuit board in the
P-Mag wasn=92t reliable. Both mags
had been subjected to very high temps=2C according to Brad this could have
been
from the engine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the bla
st
tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are now both
P-Mags.
The
alternator=2C Van=92s Nippon Denso=2C was bench checked twice by two separa
te
shops. Everything was normal.
The plane was
reassembled and test run.
Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM=2C 2000+. As soon as the RPMs
climbed the Dynon showed the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to
20. The engine kept running on the
ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with the
se
same conditions.
Where do I go
from here?
Jim
Thorne
RV7A
Message 3
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Jim,
I'd start by verifying the high voltage.
If it really does go to 20 that is bad.
Replace the alternator.
Mark
Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
From: Jim Thorne <rv7a@cox.net>
Sent: Fri, May 11, 2012 21:58:49 GMT+00:00
Subject: RV-List: Engine Quit
OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but
don't know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month
ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn't quit completely so thanks to some
throttle blips and altitude I made the "impossible turn" and got the plane
back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar.
First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we
knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a "climb out attitude".
All flows seemed to be normal.
The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it
became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+
Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range
then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were
when the engine wasn't running.
The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my
story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag
wasn't reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, according
to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage.
I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been
rebuilt and are now both P-Mags.
The alternator, Van's Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate
shops. Everything was normal.
The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I
ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps
climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the
ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with
these same conditions.
Where do I go from here?
Jim Thorne
RV7A
Message 4
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Just thinking. Maybe try a different alternator.
Sent from my Verizon iPhone
On May 11, 2012, at 4:58 PM, "Jim Thorne" <rv7a@cox.net> wrote:
> OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but d
on=99t know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a
month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn=99t quit completely so th
anks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the =9Cimpossible turn
=9D and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the ha
ngar.
>
> First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way w
e knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a =9Cclimb out atti
tude=9D. All flows seemed to be normal.
>
> The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over i
t became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20
+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range t
hen spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were w
hen the engine wasn=99t running.
>
> The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my s
tory suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag wa
sn=99t reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, acc
ording to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amp
erage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have bee
n rebuilt and are now both P-Mags.
>
> The alternator, Van=99s Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two
separate shops. Everything was normal.
>
> The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I r
an high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps cl
imbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the g
round but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with these
same conditions.
>
> Where do I go from here?
>
> Jim Thorne
>
> RV7A
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 5
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Jim,
When checking the alternator, was the regulator also checked? This has some
classic symptoms of regulator failure. If the voltage is getting that high
there is definitely something wrong w/ the regulator.
In your research, did you find that the mags would likely stop making sparks
when exposed to that level of over-voltage?
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Thorne
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 14:59
Subject: RV-List: Engine Quit
OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but
don't know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month
ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn't quit completely so thanks to some
throttle blips and altitude I made the "impossible turn" and got the plane
back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar.
First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we
knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a "climb out attitude".
All flows seemed to be normal.
The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it
became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+
Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range
then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were
when the engine wasn't running.
The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my
story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag
wasn't reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, according
to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage.
I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been
rebuilt and are now both P-Mags.
The alternator, Van's Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate
shops. Everything was normal.
The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I
ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps
climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the
ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with
these same conditions.
Where do I go from here?
Jim Thorne
RV7A
Message 6
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Only the alternator can put out this much power - the pMags are tiny in
comparison. Hopefully you have not damaged them with the excessive voltage.
Disconnect the alternator and do a run up. If normal this confirms the
alternator as the problem. I had a Nippon Denso alternator slowly go bad on
my 8A - same problem, high voltage. I replaced it with a Plane Power
alternator. This is a much better product and I recommend it. When you
replace, make sure you have proper alternator ground and a clean source
voltage connection.
Carl
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Rice
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 6:22 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Engine Quit
Just an amateur thought here. Did you look at the battery? I've always
kind of thought of it as a shock absorber for the alternator. Are the
connections good/clean, is the battery shorting out? I don't have any
experience with the P mags so I don't know how they would come into play.
Good luck
_____
From: rv7a@cox.net
Subject: RV-List: Engine Quit
OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but
don't know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month
ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn't quit completely so thanks to some
throttle blips and altitude I made the "impossible turn" and got the plane
back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar.
First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we
knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a "climb out attitude".
All flows seemed to be normal.
The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it
became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+
Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range
then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were
when the engine wasn't running.
The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my
story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag
wasn't reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, according
to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage.
I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been
rebuilt and are now both P-Mags.
The alternator, Van's Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate
shops. Everything was normal.
The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I
ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps
climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the
ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with
these same conditions.
Where do I go from here?
Jim Thorne
RV7A
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
http://forums.matronics.com
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 7
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Jim, one thing you don't want to overlook. Check the next time you run
the engine that the starter is not engaging the flywheel. I have heard
(don't know how valid) that a engaged/stuck starter can act as a
generator. I would presume the starter/flywheel might show some
physical evidence if that occurred. I know pretty long shot - but,
wouldn't hurt to check.
The Pmags have an internal generator that can easily produce 20 volts -
however, I am certain it could not sustain 60 amps - probably no more
than 3-4 amps. In any case, there is a diode in the Pmag that should
prevent your aircraft system from ever seeing the Pmag internally
generator voltage.
Check your Pmag manual for more information.
Ed
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com
From: Jim Thorne
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 5:58 PM
Subject: RV-List: Engine Quit
OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post
but don't know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About
a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn't quit completely so
thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the "impossible turn"
and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar.
First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way
we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a "climb out
attitude". All flows seemed to be normal.
The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over
it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps
and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more
normal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that
the spikes were when the engine wasn't running.
The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing
my story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the
P-Mag wasn't reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps,
according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the
high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly.
They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags.
The alternator, Van's Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two
separate shops. Everything was normal.
The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until
I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the
amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept
running on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying
to fly it with these same conditions.
Where do I go from here?
Jim Thorne
RV7A
Message 8
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I am curious about the battery... What size ? What brand ?
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: Paul Rice <rice737@msn.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Engine Quit
Just an amateur thought here. Did you look at the battery? I've alway
s kind of thought of it as a shock absorber for the alternator. Are the
connections good/clean, is the battery shorting out? I don't have any
experience with the P mags so I don't know how they would come into play
. Good luck
From: rv7a@cox.net
Subject: RV-List: Engine Quit
OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post bu
t don=92t know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About
a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn=92t quit completely so th
anks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the =93impossible turn=94
and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar.
First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way
we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a =93climb out atti
tude=94. All flows seemed to be normal.
The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over
it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps
and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more nor
mal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that th
e spikes were when the engine wasn=92t running.
The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing m
y story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P
-Mag wasn=92t reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps
, according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the
high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly.
They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags.
The alternator, Van=92s Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two sep
arate shops. Everything was normal.
The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until
I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the
amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept runni
ng on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fl
y it with these same conditions.
Where do I go from here?
Jim Thorne
RV7A
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhttp://forums.m
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Message 9
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I would agree with Jim here.=C2- Check the regulator.=C2- An alternator
basically puts out 100% of its rated power when it is up=C2-operating sp
eed and the regulator chokes it down to manageable levels.=C2- If you hav
e one of the old style regulators with the coils and points - junk it and p
ick up a solid state one.=C2-=C2- Many of the newer alternators have in
ternal regualtors and to check them out I would take it=C2-to an automoti
ve electrical shop and have them run it on a tester.=0A=C2-=0AReuven=0A
=0AEnjoy life now=0AIt has an expiration date.=0A =0A=0A___________________
_____________=0A From: Jeff Luckey <JLuckey@pacbell.net>=0ATo: rv-list@matr
onics.com =0ASent: Friday, May 11, 2012 3:42 PM=0ASubject: RE: RV-List: Eng
ine Quit=0A =0A=0A =0AJim, =0A=C2- =0AWhen checking the alternator, was
the regulator=0Aalso checked?=C2- This has some classic symptoms of regul
ator failure. =C2-If the=0Avoltage is getting that high there is definite
ly something wrong w/ the=0Aregulator. =0A=C2- =0AIn your research, did y
ou find that the=0Amags would likely stop making sparks when exposed to tha
t level of over-voltage? =0A=C2- =0A=0A________________________________
=0A =0AFrom:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-serve
r@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Thorne=0ASent: Friday, May 11, 2012 14:59
=0ATo: rv-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: RV-List: Engine Quit =0A=C2- =0A
OK I need some help on where to=0Astart looking.=C2- Sorry for a long pos
t but don=99t know how to say it=0Awithout leaving important stuff ou
t.=C2- About a month ago I lost power on=0Atakeoff.=C2- It didn
=99t quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and=0Aaltitude I made
the =9Cimpossible turn=9D and got the plane back on the=0Agrou
nd and taxied normally to the hangar. =0AFirst we checked the fuel system,
=0Adoing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew how. Even tied the tail d
own and=0Aran one in a =9Cclimb out attitude=9D.=C2- All flow
s seemed to be normal. =0AThe next thing was to download the=0ADynon data l
og.=C2- In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the=0Ainci
dent I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts.=C2- This would last for a few
=0Aseconds and drop to a more normal range then spike again it did it sever
al=0Atimes.=C2- It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasn
=99t running.=C2- =0AThe next was checking the P and E=0Amags.=C2-
Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my story suggested I send them in.=C2- They
=0Afound the circuit board in the P-Mag wasn=99t reliable.=C2- Both
mags had been=0Asubjected to very high temps, according to Brad this could
have been from the=0Aengine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that
I had the blast tubes=0Aaimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are n
ow both P-Mags. =0AThe alternator, Van=99s Nippon=0ADenso, was bench
checked twice by two separate shops.=C2- Everything was normal.=C2-
=0AThe plane was reassembled and test=0Arun.=C2- Everything seemed normal
until I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs=0Aclimbed the Dynon showe
d the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20.=C2-=0AThe engine
kept running on the ground but to say the least I am not=0Aenthusiastic try
ing to fly it with these same conditions. =0AWhere do I go from here? =0AJi
m Thorne =0ARV7A =0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?R
V-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/contributio
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