RV-List Digest Archive

Fri 05/11/12


Total Messages Posted: 9



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 02:59 PM - Engine Quit (Jim Thorne)
     2. 03:23 PM - Re: Engine Quit (Paul Rice)
     3. 03:33 PM - Re: Engine Quit (Mark Burns)
     4. 03:41 PM - Re: Engine Quit (Bobby Hester)
     5. 03:43 PM - Re: Engine Quit (Jeff Luckey)
     6. 03:54 PM - Re: Engine Quit (Carl Froehlich)
     7. 04:03 PM - Engaged Starter? Re: Engine Quit (Ed Anderson)
     8. 04:11 PM - Re: Engine Quit (n801bh@netzero.com)
     9. 06:57 PM - Re: Engine Quit (Reuven Silberman)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 02:59:45 PM PST US
    From: "Jim Thorne" <rv7a@cox.net>
    Subject: Engine Quit
    OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but don't know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn't quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the "impossible turn" and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar. First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a "climb out attitude". All flows seemed to be normal. The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasn't running. The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag wasn't reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags. The alternator, Van's Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate shops. Everything was normal. The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with these same conditions. Where do I go from here? Jim Thorne RV7A


    Message 2


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    Time: 03:23:01 PM PST US
    From: Paul Rice <rice737@msn.com>
    Subject: Engine Quit
    Just an amateur thought here. Did you look at the battery? I've always k ind of thought of it as a shock absorber for the alternator. Are the conne ctions good/clean=2C is the battery shorting out? I don't have any experie nce with the P mags so I don't know how they would come into play. Good lu ckFrom: rv7a@cox.net Subject: RV-List: Engine Quit OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but don=92t know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn=92t quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I ma de the =93impossible turn=94 and got the plane back on the ground and taxied norma lly to the hangar. First we checked the fuel system=2C doing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew h ow. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a =93climb out attitude=94. All flo ws seemed to be normal. The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasn=92t running. The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad=2C at E-Mag=2C after hearing my story suggested I send them in. They found the c ircuit board in the P-Mag wasn=92t reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps=2C according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the bla st tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags. The alternator=2C Van=92s Nippon Denso=2C was bench checked twice by two separa te shops. Everything was normal. The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM=2C 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with the se same conditions. Where do I go from here? Jim Thorne RV7A


    Message 3


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    Time: 03:33:44 PM PST US
    From: "Mark Burns" <burnsm@suddenlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Engine Quit
    Jim, I'd start by verifying the high voltage. If it really does go to 20 that is bad. Replace the alternator. Mark Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: Jim Thorne <rv7a@cox.net> Sent: Fri, May 11, 2012 21:58:49 GMT+00:00 Subject: RV-List: Engine Quit OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but don't know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn't quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the "impossible turn" and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar. First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a "climb out attitude". All flows seemed to be normal. The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasn't running. The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag wasn't reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags. The alternator, Van's Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate shops. Everything was normal. The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with these same conditions. Where do I go from here? Jim Thorne RV7A


    Message 4


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    Time: 03:41:29 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Engine Quit
    From: Bobby Hester <bobbyhester@newwavecomm.net>
    Just thinking. Maybe try a different alternator. Sent from my Verizon iPhone On May 11, 2012, at 4:58 PM, "Jim Thorne" <rv7a@cox.net> wrote: > OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but d on=99t know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn=99t quit completely so th anks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the =9Cimpossible turn =9D and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the ha ngar. > > First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way w e knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a =9Cclimb out atti tude=9D. All flows seemed to be normal. > > The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over i t became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20 + Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range t hen spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were w hen the engine wasn=99t running. > > The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my s tory suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag wa sn=99t reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, acc ording to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amp erage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have bee n rebuilt and are now both P-Mags. > > The alternator, Van=99s Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate shops. Everything was normal. > > The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I r an high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps cl imbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the g round but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with these same conditions. > > Where do I go from here? > > Jim Thorne > > RV7A > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= >


    Message 5


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    Time: 03:43:39 PM PST US
    From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey@pacbell.net>
    Subject: Engine Quit
    Jim, When checking the alternator, was the regulator also checked? This has some classic symptoms of regulator failure. If the voltage is getting that high there is definitely something wrong w/ the regulator. In your research, did you find that the mags would likely stop making sparks when exposed to that level of over-voltage? _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Thorne Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 14:59 Subject: RV-List: Engine Quit OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but don't know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn't quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the "impossible turn" and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar. First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a "climb out attitude". All flows seemed to be normal. The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasn't running. The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag wasn't reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags. The alternator, Van's Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate shops. Everything was normal. The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with these same conditions. Where do I go from here? Jim Thorne RV7A


    Message 6


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    Time: 03:54:25 PM PST US
    From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@verizon.net>
    Subject: Engine Quit
    Only the alternator can put out this much power - the pMags are tiny in comparison. Hopefully you have not damaged them with the excessive voltage. Disconnect the alternator and do a run up. If normal this confirms the alternator as the problem. I had a Nippon Denso alternator slowly go bad on my 8A - same problem, high voltage. I replaced it with a Plane Power alternator. This is a much better product and I recommend it. When you replace, make sure you have proper alternator ground and a clean source voltage connection. Carl From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Rice Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 6:22 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Engine Quit Just an amateur thought here. Did you look at the battery? I've always kind of thought of it as a shock absorber for the alternator. Are the connections good/clean, is the battery shorting out? I don't have any experience with the P mags so I don't know how they would come into play. Good luck _____ From: rv7a@cox.net Subject: RV-List: Engine Quit OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but don't know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn't quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the "impossible turn" and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar. First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a "climb out attitude". All flows seemed to be normal. The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasn't running. The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag wasn't reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags. The alternator, Van's Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate shops. Everything was normal. The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with these same conditions. Where do I go from here? Jim Thorne RV7A get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 7


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    Time: 04:03:17 PM PST US
    From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Engine Quit
    Jim, one thing you don't want to overlook. Check the next time you run the engine that the starter is not engaging the flywheel. I have heard (don't know how valid) that a engaged/stuck starter can act as a generator. I would presume the starter/flywheel might show some physical evidence if that occurred. I know pretty long shot - but, wouldn't hurt to check. The Pmags have an internal generator that can easily produce 20 volts - however, I am certain it could not sustain 60 amps - probably no more than 3-4 amps. In any case, there is a diode in the Pmag that should prevent your aircraft system from ever seeing the Pmag internally generator voltage. Check your Pmag manual for more information. Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: Jim Thorne Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 5:58 PM Subject: RV-List: Engine Quit OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but don't know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn't quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the "impossible turn" and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar. First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a "climb out attitude". All flows seemed to be normal. The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasn't running. The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag wasn't reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags. The alternator, Van's Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate shops. Everything was normal. The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with these same conditions. Where do I go from here? Jim Thorne RV7A


    Message 8


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    Time: 04:11:20 PM PST US
    From: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>
    Subject: Engine Quit
    I am curious about the battery... What size ? What brand ? do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Paul Rice <rice737@msn.com> Subject: RE: RV-List: Engine Quit Just an amateur thought here. Did you look at the battery? I've alway s kind of thought of it as a shock absorber for the alternator. Are the connections good/clean, is the battery shorting out? I don't have any experience with the P mags so I don't know how they would come into play . Good luck From: rv7a@cox.net Subject: RV-List: Engine Quit OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post bu t don=92t know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn=92t quit completely so th anks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the =93impossible turn=94 and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar. First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a =93climb out atti tude=94. All flows seemed to be normal. The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more nor mal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that th e spikes were when the engine wasn=92t running. The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing m y story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P -Mag wasn=92t reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps , according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags. The alternator, Van=92s Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two sep arate shops. Everything was normal. The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept runni ng on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fl y it with these same conditions. Where do I go from here? Jim Thorne RV7A get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhttp://forums.m ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== === ____________________________________________________________ Credit Monitoring Service Get 3 Credit Scores+Monitoring. Try Free for 30 Days. Sign Up Now. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4fad9bfc861c210f467dst04vuc


    Message 9


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    Time: 06:57:20 PM PST US
    From: Reuven Silberman <pilots2@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Engine Quit
    I would agree with Jim here.=C2- Check the regulator.=C2- An alternator basically puts out 100% of its rated power when it is up=C2-operating sp eed and the regulator chokes it down to manageable levels.=C2- If you hav e one of the old style regulators with the coils and points - junk it and p ick up a solid state one.=C2-=C2- Many of the newer alternators have in ternal regualtors and to check them out I would take it=C2-to an automoti ve electrical shop and have them run it on a tester.=0A=C2-=0AReuven=0A =0AEnjoy life now=0AIt has an expiration date.=0A =0A=0A___________________ _____________=0A From: Jeff Luckey <JLuckey@pacbell.net>=0ATo: rv-list@matr onics.com =0ASent: Friday, May 11, 2012 3:42 PM=0ASubject: RE: RV-List: Eng ine Quit=0A =0A=0A =0AJim, =0A=C2- =0AWhen checking the alternator, was the regulator=0Aalso checked?=C2- This has some classic symptoms of regul ator failure. =C2-If the=0Avoltage is getting that high there is definite ly something wrong w/ the=0Aregulator. =0A=C2- =0AIn your research, did y ou find that the=0Amags would likely stop making sparks when exposed to tha t level of over-voltage? =0A=C2- =0A=0A________________________________ =0A =0AFrom:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-serve r@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Thorne=0ASent: Friday, May 11, 2012 14:59 =0ATo: rv-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: RV-List: Engine Quit =0A=C2- =0A OK I need some help on where to=0Astart looking.=C2- Sorry for a long pos t but don=99t know how to say it=0Awithout leaving important stuff ou t.=C2- About a month ago I lost power on=0Atakeoff.=C2- It didn =99t quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and=0Aaltitude I made the =9Cimpossible turn=9D and got the plane back on the=0Agrou nd and taxied normally to the hangar. =0AFirst we checked the fuel system, =0Adoing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew how. Even tied the tail d own and=0Aran one in a =9Cclimb out attitude=9D.=C2- All flow s seemed to be normal. =0AThe next thing was to download the=0ADynon data l og.=C2- In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the=0Ainci dent I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts.=C2- This would last for a few =0Aseconds and drop to a more normal range then spike again it did it sever al=0Atimes.=C2- It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasn =99t running.=C2- =0AThe next was checking the P and E=0Amags.=C2- Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my story suggested I send them in.=C2- They =0Afound the circuit board in the P-Mag wasn=99t reliable.=C2- Both mags had been=0Asubjected to very high temps, according to Brad this could have been from the=0Aengine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes=0Aaimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are n ow both P-Mags. =0AThe alternator, Van=99s Nippon=0ADenso, was bench checked twice by two separate shops.=C2- Everything was normal.=C2- =0AThe plane was reassembled and test=0Arun.=C2- Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs=0Aclimbed the Dynon showe d the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20.=C2-=0AThe engine kept running on the ground but to say the least I am not=0Aenthusiastic try ing to fly it with these same conditions. =0AWhere do I go from here? =0AJi m Thorne =0ARV7A =0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?R V-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/contributio ===============




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