Today's Message Index:
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1. 03:10 AM - Re: RV-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 10/06/12 (Glen Matejcek)
2. 07:47 AM - Re: Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question..... (RV6 Flyer)
3. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question..... (mr.gsun@gmail.com)
4. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question..... (Kelly McMullen)
5. 08:32 AM - Re: Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question..... (Shannon Miller)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 10/06/12 |
HI Greg-
That is an excellent question and example.
Starting at the back end and working forward, if you read the regs from end to
end, you will never come across the concepts of "check out" or "insurance".
The basic FAA qualification scheme involves category and class, and then type ratings
for turbojets and anything over 12,500 pounds. Some weaknesses in this
scheme became apparent over time, and one-time endorsements evolved. In the context
of this discussion, High Performance, Complex, and Conventional Gear come
to mind. However, only certificate, category, and class are noted in the reg
in question here. So, had you gotten a multi engine rating in a Champion Lancer,
you could be safety pilot in a twin Beech. How's that for a stretch? But the
salient point is that you are ACTING as PIC, not BEING PIC.
So yes, in the example you cited, your safety pilot time would count towards your
requirements. The bit of trivia I don't posess is whether a safety pilot needs
a valid medical cert for operations in VMC. I suspect the answer is no since
a med cert is not mentioned in either 61.51 (logging time) or 91.109 (safety
pilot), but I am also pretty confident the average safety inspector, when put
on the spot and absent the specific knowledge, would default to the most conervative
answer.
Now, what an FBO or an insurance company requires to protect itself from liability
is an entirely separate hurdle. Functionally those hurdles are as significant
as the regulatory ones, and in the pilot lounge the significance of and distinction
between the sources of the hurdles can become blurred.
As a tangential issue, when you take instruction for your commercial certificate,
your CFI will not need a valid medical certificate. This is because you will
be qualified for the operations conducted, and as such you will be PIC, not
acting PIC. As long as there is a real PIC aboard, you are good to go. To take
training towards an Instrument certificate in IMC would require the CFII to have
a valid medical certificate, as the student would not be qualified for that
particular operation. (since there is no such thing as an FAA aerobatic certificate
or endorsement, you can take acro dual from anybody, with or without a
CFI. You just can't count that 'dual' for an FAA certificate or rating of any
sort. Of course, 'anybody' is not a good concept WRT acro, but that is a whole
'nuther topic).
Now, this list being what it is, surely someone somewhere is already searching
the back of the fridge for an old tomato. What I recommend to others is what I
do myself: Don't take someone else's word, including mine, for any of this. Read
the pertinent regs, and go to the FAA website and pull up the legal interpretations
on the topic. Also, I myself have the good fortune to know several good
folks in the FAA that I can count on for straight answers, including "Huh...
I'll have to look that one up!"
>Time: 10:20:33 PM PST US
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question.....
>From: mr.gsun@gmail.com
>
>So, if I am in a complex aircraft acting as PIC because I am the safety
>pilot, can I count that as some of the complex time needed for my
>commercial? Even though I am not checked out, nor insured to fly that
>aircraft? I am, however, current in my RV7 with a current class II
>medical.
>
>Greg
>On Oct 5, 2012 1:41 AM, "Glen Matejcek" wrote:
>
>>
>> HI Guys-
>>
>> This is a subject area that triggers heated debates all the way up to
>> heavy cockpits. The source guidance for this particular issue can be found
>> in FAR 61.51(e)(1)(iii) which states, paraphrased, that when ACTING as PIC
>> you can log PIC. While the statemant that there is only one PIC aboard is
>> correct, it is also correct that when one pilot (the real PIC) is under the
>> hood in VMC, he can not fully discharge his duties. The safety pilot is an
>> FAR required position and can only be filled by someone with the
>> appropriate category and class ratings. Per the reg cited above, the
>> safety pilot gets to log PIC and it does indeed count towards his next
>> certificate or rating. Tailwheel and complex / high perf endorsements are
>> not an issue.
>>
>> If you guys think this stuff is sticky, get a couple heavy pilots to
>> discuss logging bunk time on multi-crew long haul flights... however, not
>> only is the black ink on the white page, but the FAA website has a section
>> for legal interpretations that spells out how DC views these issues.
Glen Matejcek
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question..... |
NO you cannot use the complex time toward your Commercial rating. The Comm
ercial rating requires that you have 10-hours of instruction in complex air
planes.
Ref 61.129http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgFAR
.nsf/0/6B2FADCE6B2C97E88625768D0073A7A1?OpenDocument
(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing =0A
gear=2C flaps=2C and a controllable pitch propeller=2C or is turbine-powere
d=2C =0A
or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating=2C 10 hours of
=0A
training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch =0A
propeller=3B=0A
Now if you can get the other person to sign you off as having instruction
=2C then you would be able to use it.
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell=2C
2=2C640+ Flying Hours So. CA=2C USA
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: logging PIC time=2C was Almost an RV question....
.
From: mr.gsun@gmail.com
So=2C if I am in a complex aircraft acting as PIC because I am the safety p
ilot=2C can I count that as some of the complex time needed for my commerci
al? Even though I am not checked out=2C nor insured to fly that aircraft
? I am=2C however=2C current in my RV7 with a current class II medical.
=0A
=0A
Greg
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question..... |
So lets see, do I have to get this ten hours of training from a CFI or
from my experienced neighbor with the complex airplane?
Greg
On Oct 7, 2012 7:51 AM, "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com> wrote:
> NO you cannot use the complex time toward your Commercial rating. The
> Commercial rating requires that you have 10-hours of instruction in complex
> airplanes.
>
> Ref 61.129
>
> http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgFAR.nsf/0/6B2FADCE6B2C97E88625768D0073A7A1?OpenDocument
>
> *(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing
> gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or
> for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of
> training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
> *
>
> Now if you can get the other person to sign you off as having instruction,
> then you would be able to use it.
>
> Gary A. Sobek
> "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
> 2,640+ Flying Hours So. CA, USA
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 22:18:59 -0700
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question.....
> From: mr.gsun@gmail.com
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>
> So, if I am in a complex aircraft acting as PIC because I am the safety
> pilot, can I count that as some of the complex time needed for my
> commercial? Even though I am not checked out, nor insured to fly that
> aircraft? I am, however, current in my RV7 with a current class II
> medical.
> Greg
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question..... |
Only a CFI can give *required* instruction time. Ratings have experience
requirements and instruction requirements. This is an instruction
requirement.
On 10/7/2012 8:07 AM, mr.gsun@gmail.com wrote:
>
> So lets see, do I have to get this ten hours of training from a CFI
> or from my experienced neighbor with the complex airplane?
>
> Greg
>
> On Oct 7, 2012 7:51 AM, "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com
> <mailto:rv6_flyer@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
> NO you cannot use the complex time toward your Commercial rating.
> The Commercial rating requires that you have 10-hours of
> instruction in complex airplanes.
>
> Ref 61.129
> http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgFAR.nsf/0/6B2FADCE6B2C97E88625768D0073A7A1?OpenDocument
>
> /(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable
> landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is
> turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine
> seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps
> and a controllable pitch propeller; /
>
> Now if you can get the other person to sign you off as having
> instruction, then you would be able to use it.
>
> Gary A. Sobek
> "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
> 2,640+ Flying Hours So. CA, USA
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 22:18:59 -0700
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV
> question.....
> From: mr.gsun@gmail.com <mailto:mr.gsun@gmail.com>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>
>
> So, if I am in a complex aircraft acting as PIC because I am the
> safety pilot, can I count that as some of the complex time needed
> for my commercial? Even though I am not checked out, nor
> insured to fly that aircraft? I am, however, current in my RV7
> with a current class II medical.
> Greg
>
> *
>
> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question..... |
However, time logged as SIC (safety pilot) DOES count toward the 250 hours
total flight time requirement of the commercial certificate. 14 CFR
61.129(a).
As for logging PIC when you are safety pilot, yes, that's possible as well
(for the time the PF is under the hood), when certain conditions are met
and prior agreement is made. It's not something to take lightly, however.
Google around and you'll find some really good AOPA/etc. guidance on this,
complete with LOIs from the FAA.
Oddly, there are also situations when you are ACTING PIC (14 CFR 1.1, under
"Pilot in command"), fully responsible for the safety of the flight, but
can NOT log it. For example, say you're checked out in your complex ASEL
aircraft and you and your friend go on a one-hour flight together. Your
friend is a private pilot ASEL with no complex endorsement, but you let him
do all the flying except for takeoff and landing. You watch him like a hawk
because you're acting PIC -- your butt is on the line if anything happens.
Since your friend is a private pilot with an ASEL rating (an endorsement is
not a rating), and was sole manipulator of the controls, he gets to log
that one hour of flight time as PIC (14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i). But since
neither of you were under the hood and only one pilot was required at a
time, you may NOT log that flight time (except for the time you were
actually manipulating the controls yourself, for taxi, takeoff, and
landing)! Seems unfair, I know. There are other situations like this as
well.
So, ACTING PIC and LOGGING PIC are two totally different things. You can
log PIC during times you are not actually acting PIC, and vice versa. So
there is a whole lot of confusion on it all. Gotta love the FAA.
--Shannon Miller, CFI
RV-7A, Wings
On Oct 7, 2012, at 7:51, RV6 Flyer <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com> wrote:
NO you cannot use the complex time toward your Commercial rating. The
Commercial rating requires that you have 10-hours of instruction in complex
airplanes.
Ref 61.129
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgFAR.nsf/0/6B2FADCE6B2C97E88625768D0073A7A1?OpenDocument
*(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing
gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or
for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of
training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller; *
Now if you can get the other person to sign you off as having instruction,
then you would be able to use it.
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
2,640+ Flying Hours So. CA, USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: logging PIC time, was Almost an RV question.....
From: mr.gsun@gmail.com
So, if I am in a complex aircraft acting as PIC because I am the safety
pilot, can I count that as some of the complex time needed for my
commercial? Even though I am not checked out, nor insured to fly that
aircraft? I am, however, current in my RV7 with a current class II
medical.
Greg
*
*
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