---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/17/12: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:39 AM - Re: Avoiding a Flip Over? (ianxbrown) 2. 08:47 AM - Auto Pilot issues... (Bill Judge) 3. 01:01 PM - Re: Auto Pilot issues... (Garry Stout) 4. 01:29 PM - Re: Auto Pilot issues... (bigginsking) 5. 02:07 PM - Re: Auto Pilot issues... (Ralph Finch) 6. 02:10 PM - Re: Auto Pilot issues... (Ralph Finch) 7. 07:58 PM - ASRS was Auto Pilot issues... (Dave Saylor) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:14 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Avoiding a Flip Over? From: "ianxbrown" Bob, I think you misunderstood. I was saying AFTER an accident like this one is more likely to place a HIGHER priority on safe landing technique than one did before the accident... I'm not sure that those who never had an accident like this can be assumed to be safer just because it didn't happen. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385558#385558 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:14 AM PST US From: Bill Judge Subject: RV-List: Auto Pilot issues... I get the NASA Callback emailed to me regularly, it is a periodical that details some of the more interesting reports filed by pilots, controllers and mechanics playing their "get out of jail free card." It generally makes for thought provoking reading and it's free. This month talks about auto pilots going awry and 2 of the 3 incidents detailed are in experimentals yet, experimentals are less than 20% of the total number of piston fixed wings out there... http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/callback/cb_393.html We can do better! Make sure you really know how to operate all that gadgetry that you've got before you use it in what I would call "an operational environment" and make sure it all works the way it should before you depend on it. Bill Judge N84WJ, RV-8, 820 hrs http://rv-8.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:55 PM PST US From: "Garry Stout" Subject: RE: RV-List: Auto Pilot issues... The "get out of jail free" card doesn't work. I had one of those "call the tower" incidents 2 months ago, which led to a discussion with the FAA. I sent in my "get out of jail" paperwork, but the FAA said they never see that paperwork and don't even have access to it. It plays no part in their enforcement actions. The paperwork is strictly a NASA thing, for safety statistics. Don't think it will do you any good, and certainly won't get you out of jail. Garry Stout From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Judge Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 11:46 AM Subject: RV-List: Auto Pilot issues... I get the NASA Callback emailed to me regularly, it is a periodical that details some of the more interesting reports filed by pilots, controllers and mechanics playing their "get out of jail free card." It generally makes for thought provoking reading and it's free. This month talks about auto pilots going awry and 2 of the 3 incidents detailed are in experimentals yet, experimentals are less than 20% of the total number of piston fixed wings out there... http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/callback/cb_393.html We can do better! Make sure you really know how to operate all that gadgetry that you've got before you use it in what I would call "an operational environment" and make sure it all works the way it should before you depend on it. Bill Judge N84WJ, RV-8, 820 hrs http://rv-8.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:29:57 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Auto Pilot issues... From: "bigginsking" Sorry to hear you got a bad deal. >From this link: http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview/immunity.html I got this: Enforcement Restrictions. The FAA considers the filing of a report with NASA concerning an incident or occurrence involving a violation of 49 U.S.C. subtitle VII or the 14 CFR to be indicative of a constructive attitude. Such an attitude will tend to prevent future violations. Accordingly, although a finding of violation may be made, neither a civil penalty nor certificate suspension will be imposed if: The violation was inadvertent and not deliberate; The violation did not involve a criminal offense, accident, or action under 49 U.S.C. 44709, which discloses a lack of qualification or competency, which is wholly excluded from this policy; The person has not been found in any prior FAA enforcement action to have committed a violation of 49 U.S.C. subtitle VII, or any regulation promulgated there for a period of 5 years prior to the date of occurrence; and The person proves that, within 10 days after the violation, or date when the person became aware or should have been aware of the violation, he or she completed and delivered or mailed a written report of the incident or occurrence to NASA. -------- Bill Judge N84WJ, RV-8 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385575#385575 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:07:47 PM PST US From: Ralph Finch Subject: Re: RV-List: Auto Pilot issues... Quite right. Some years ago I busted a VIP-TFR and though they didn't send F-16s after me, they did give me a 30-day suspension. I had sent in the form too, but the FAA attorney said that since I had willfully violated the regulations (by not getting "all available information before the flight", i.e. a LockMart briefing), the NASA form doesn't work. Seems to me they can pull that trick on any pilot. Ralph Finch On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 1:01 PM, Garry Stout wrote : > *The =93get out of jail free=94 card doesn=92t work*. I had one of those =93call > the tower=94 incidents 2 months ago, which led to a discussion with the F AA. > I sent in my =93get out of jail=94 paperwork, but the FAA said they never see > that paperwork and don=92t even have access to it. It plays no part in t heir > enforcement actions. The paperwork is strictly a NASA thing, for safety > statistics. Don=92t think it will do you any good, and certainly won=92t get > you out of jail. > > ** ** > > Garry Stout**** > > ** ** > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:10:25 PM PST US From: Ralph Finch Subject: Re: RV-List: Auto Pilot issues... I would venture that proportionally, way more experimental aircraft than certificated have autopilots. Ralph Finch On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Bill Judge wrote: > This month talks about auto pilots going awry and 2 of the > 3 incidents detailed are in experimentals yet, experimentals are less than > 20% of the total number of piston fixed wings out there... > > http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/callback/cb_393.html > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:58 PM PST US From: Dave Saylor Subject: RV-List: ASRS was Auto Pilot issues... When I worked for an experienced 135 operator, his first advice in a "call the tower" situation was NEVER call the tower just because they ask you to. You have no obligation, period. I've asked an aviation attorney since then, and he agreed. My own experience with FAA's "friendly chats" is that there's no such thing as off-the-record, everything you say is evidence, and they will use it if they wish. The ASRS (NASA) form is absolutely worth the effort, and it does work. My wife and I both worked for ASRS many years ago, and I've seen it work plenty of times, even to my own personal benefit. But it takes a concerted effort and a lawyer who wants to do the work. If avoiding the suspension is worth it to you, there are several levels to work through before a violation is made, and the form is one layer of protection. Garry is right, FAA never sees it, and that's the point, in order to protect you for admitting an error. But the law does respect the form and if you take it far enough it works like a charm. > Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 1:01 PM, Garry Stout wrote : > The =9Cget out of jail free=9D card doesn=99t work. I had one of those =9Ccall > the tower=9D incidents 2 months ago, which led to a discussion with the FAA. > I sent in my =9Cget out of jail=9D paperwork, but the FAA sai d they never see > that paperwork and don=99t even have access to it. It plays no par t in their > enforcement actions. The paperwork is strictly a NASA thing, for safety > statistics. Don=99t think it will do you any good, and certainly w on=99t get > you out of jail.**** > > ** ** > > Garry Stout**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Judge > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 17, 2012 11:46 AM > *To:* SoCAL-RVlist@yahoogroups.com; rv-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RV-List: Auto Pilot issues...**** > > ** ** > > I get the NASA Callback emailed to me regularly, it is a periodical that > details some of the more interesting reports filed by pilots, controllers > and mechanics playing their "get out of jail free card."**** > > ** ** > > It generally makes for thought provoking reading and it's free.**** > > ** ** > > This month talks about auto pilots going awry and 2 of the > 3 incidents detailed are in experimentals yet, experimentals are less tha n > 20% of the total number of piston fixed wings out there...**** > > ** ** > > http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/callback/cb_393.html**** > > ** ** > > We can do better!**** > > ** ** > > Make sure you really know how to operate all that gadgetry that you've go t > before you use it in what I would call "an operational environment" **** > > ** ** > > and **** > > ** ** > > make sure it all works the way it should before you depend on it.**** > > ** ** > > Bill Judge > N84WJ, RV-8, 820 hrs**** > > http://rv-8.blogspot.com/**** > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List* > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.