Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 10:23 AM - Just Two Days Left! - Still Behind... (Matt Dralle)
1. 01:34 PM - Spins in an RV-6 (Panama Red)
2. 02:06 PM - Re: Spins in an RV-6 (Stein Bruch)
3. 02:58 PM - Re: Spins in an RV-6 (David Leonard)
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| Subject: | Just Two Days Left! - Still Behind... |
Dear Listers,
There are just two more days left in this years List Fund Raiser. Over the last
couple of weeks I have received some more really nice comments from members
on what the Lists have meant to them. I have included a few more of them below.
Please read over the comments and ponder on your own feelings about the Lists
and the support and camaraderie you have found here.
We are still behind last year in terms of the number of contributions. I really
want to keep providing these services to the homebuilt community, but it take
resources. Since there's no advertising budget or deep pockets to keep the
operation a float, its solely your generosity during the Fund Raiser that keeps
things going. Please make a Contribution today.
If you've been putting off showing your support for the Lists, now is the time
to do it!
Make a contribution with a Credit Card or though PayPal at that Matronics Contribution
web site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, drop a check in the mail:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore, CA 94550
Thank you in advance for your support!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
==================== A Few List Member Comments =====================
I have been flying my Pietenpol for a month now and am
enjoying the fruits of ten hard years of work. I seriously
doubt it would ever have been finished but for the help,
encouragement and friendships I've received and made through
the Pietenpol list.
Douwe B
Hey-Long time subscriber, zero-time contributor. Just a
note of thanks. This is first time I have the resources to
contribute. Thanks for carrying a lightweight for years and
a special thanks for your time and effort.
Billy R
My 601 hd is flying with the help with the listers.
Noel G
A very useful facility.
Graeme B
..great site!
Robert C
Great Pietenpol site!
Don Y
Not active but always interested in keeping up. Enjoy
when I can.
Richard R
Dave and Tim from Aircrafters just want to reiterate our
thanks for hosting the lists.
Tim F.
I don't have a lot to give at this time of year, but I
hope my contribution helps none the less. I really enjoy
the message board.
Mark C
Thanks to your continued work on maintaining these lists.
Ralph C
The lists and the various contributors have been a great
help while I was building and also now that I'm flying.
Albert G
Very helpful tools for the homebuilder.
Vaughn T
We appreciate your great help!
Richard H
Many of our customers have expressed to us that you
provide them with an invaluable service - and we agree!
Bill B
I Fly a Quicksilver GT400 but love to read what the Kolb
boys have to say and it was on your list that I found out
about the Yamaha product Ring Free,, now called engine med,
that shit works.. no carbon in my rings or any to speak of
with the use of the Yamaha product with a premix 503 with
over 300 hrs of use.. thanks to your Kolb bulletin board.
Robert B
You are providing a valuable service that helps a lot of
people through information sharing. When I built my
Pietenpol over 40 years ago we were largely on our own,
working without a resource like this list.
Graham H
Thanks for the opportunity to link us all, keep the good work!
Peter B
Message 1
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| Subject: | Spins in an RV-6 |
Recently posted on the VAF:
>The reasoning behind using the larger rudders (RV-8 at first, then finally
>the late RV-7/RV-9 rudder) on the -6 was to help with spin recovery. You do
>not want to intentionally spin a -6. It is capable of >spin recovery with
>the original small rudder, but the spin develops very quickly and will take
>much longer to recover with full recovery control inputs than what a
>"regular spamcan" trainer airplane will do. In >other words, spinning a -6
>will probably scare the holy crapola out of you and might make you panic
>(and if you don't have enough altitude, then you know what happens next).
I disagree. I have an RV6 with the small rudder and I intentionally spin it
almost every flight. I fly the IAC sportsman aerobatic sequence with it
and have no problems. One must just carefully watch entry and exit speeds
on some maneuvers. I do not like the term "gentleman aerobatics," it
implies to me that you fly the maneuver sloppily with a who cares attitude.
I fly each maneuver as precisely and as aggressively as possible (by
aggressive I don't mean violent, but when it is time to pull to 4Gs, then
smoothly, but quickly ...PULL TO 4Gs!).
As for spins:
1. It takes a positive prospin inputs to enter and stay in the spin. My RV
does not like to spin without aggressive prospin inputs, my RV has failed to
spin on numerous occasions (that gentleman aerobatic stuff).
2. Spin recovery:
a. Throttle off
b. Opposite rudder
c. And or Release back pressure (I find if I release back pressure too
soon the spin will stop before I apply opposite rudder)
d. If you do both as the Briggs-Meyer technique describes, then the
spin stops instantaneously.
3. Competition spins are only 1-2 turns, never more than two. To stay in
the spin beyond the first half turn requires that positive prospin inputs be
maintained. I do not spin more than 2 turns as there is no point for
aerobatic competitions.
4. Unintentional spins with power on. If you fly based upon airspeed, G
number and bank angle, how on earth would this happen? But if it does, spin
exit:
a. reduce power
b. release all controls
c. If spin hasn't stopped, apply opposite rudder
d. Reduce back pressure if any (my old flight instructor told me, you
can't spin if the wing isn't stalled). Van recommends forward push, point
is that elevator should go to neutral. NOTE: if you use to much negative
elevator during the recovery it is possible in some aircraft to do a
crossover spin, i.e. recover from a upright spin into an inverted spin.
e. Recover to level flight, then add power.
5. For a competition spin, after spin stops, aircraft must recover to a
vertical downline, then recover to straight and level. After the spin
stops, it is easy to recover to straight and level, don't need power. But
for competition spins it takes a significant amount of forward push to get
the aircraft into the vertical downline. NOTE: the idea of going to a
vertical downline is to gain sufficient airspeed to insure one does not
recover to level flight in a stall condition. This is really not a problem
with an RV.
6. If you find yourself in an unintentional spin, then you should be able
to recover in 1/2 turn or less (but it will take practice). Spins in an RV6
should be no more scary than any other maneuver. If you have never done a
spin, get a flight instructor to show you how. If you fear the spin, then
it is due to a lack of spin understanding and practice rather than of any
real danger, unless you are doing it less than 1,000 feet AGL! My
competition spins need 600-900 feet to complete, that includes the
intentional downline. I probably could do a 1/2 turn spin and recover in
less than 300 feet.
BTW, from an aerodynamic standpoint, higher vertical rudder is not the best
answer for increased spin recovery as the wing tends to blank out the top
portion of the rudder, more rudder below the horizontal stabilizer is much
more effective in an upright spin. Read Alan Cassidy's book "Better
Aerobatics" for an indepth explanation.
Anyway, that is my 10 years experience with spins in my RV6. Your RV6 may
be different!
Bob
RV6
Message 2
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| Subject: | Spins in an RV-6 |
I would agree with much of what you said below, however having built and owned
a number of RV6's over the past decades I will attest to the fact that the differences
between planes and their configurations can be a HUGE factor in this
particular airframe....specifically engine/prop combos, battery location, fuel
levels, CG, W&B, etc.. Indeed some of them behave exactly as Bob mentioned below,
but then again some of them are just absolute tigers (meaning they will
wind up quickly and will NOT come out in a half turn no matter what you do or
how good you are). My point of caution is that just because one particular airframe
may behave that way and allow a quick spin recovery, my experience is that
many -6's will not (and some -4's as well). I certainly wouldnt out practicing
for my first time with that assumption! In the end though, some of them
do behave in the way that absolutely requires you to work hard in order to even
get them into a spin (much less maintain it).
Just my 2 cents as usual!
Cheers,
Stein
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Panama Red
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 3:34 PM
Subject: RV-List: Spins in an RV-6
Recently posted on the VAF:
I disagree. I have an RV6 with the small rudder and I intentionally spin it almost
every flight. I fly the IAC sportsman aerobatic sequence with it and have
no problems. One must just carefully watch entry and exit speeds on some maneuvers.
I do not like the term "gentleman aerobatics," it implies to me that
you fly the maneuver sloppily with a who cares attitude.
I fly each maneuver as precisely and as aggressively as possible (by aggressive
I don't mean violent, but when it is time to pull to 4Gs, then smoothly, but
quickly ...PULL TO 4Gs!).
As for spins:
1. It takes a positive prospin inputs to enter and stay in the spin. My RV does
not like to spin without aggressive prospin inputs, my RV has failed to spin
on numerous occasions (that gentleman aerobatic stuff).
2. Spin recovery:
a. Throttle off
b. Opposite rudder
c. And or Release back pressure (I find if I release back pressure too soon
the spin will stop before I apply opposite rudder)
d. If you do both as the Briggs-Meyer technique describes, then the spin stops
instantaneously.
3. Competition spins are only 1-2 turns, never more than two. To stay in the
spin beyond the first half turn requires that positive prospin inputs be maintained.
I do not spin more than 2 turns as there is no point for aerobatic competitions.
4. Unintentional spins with power on. If you fly based upon airspeed, G number
and bank angle, how on earth would this happen? But if it does, spin
exit:
a. reduce power
b. release all controls
c. If spin hasn't stopped, apply opposite rudder
d. Reduce back pressure if any (my old flight instructor told me, you can't
spin if the wing isn't stalled). Van recommends forward push, point is that
elevator should go to neutral. NOTE: if you use to much negative elevator during
the recovery it is possible in some aircraft to do a crossover spin, i.e.
recover from a upright spin into an inverted spin.
e. Recover to level flight, then add power.
5. For a competition spin, after spin stops, aircraft must recover to a vertical
downline, then recover to straight and level. After the spin stops, it is
easy to recover to straight and level, don't need power. But for competition
spins it takes a significant amount of forward push to get the aircraft into the
vertical downline. NOTE: the idea of going to a vertical downline is to gain
sufficient airspeed to insure one does not recover to level flight in a stall
condition. This is really not a problem with an RV.
6. If you find yourself in an unintentional spin, then you should be able to recover
in 1/2 turn or less (but it will take practice). Spins in an RV6 should
be no more scary than any other maneuver. If you have never done a spin, get
a flight instructor to show you how. If you fear the spin, then it is due to
a lack of spin understanding and practice rather than of any real danger, unless
you are doing it less than 1,000 feet AGL! My competition spins need 600-900
feet to complete, that includes the intentional downline. I probably could
do a 1/2 turn spin and recover in less than 300 feet.
BTW, from an aerodynamic standpoint, higher vertical rudder is not the best answer
for increased spin recovery as the wing tends to blank out the top portion
of the rudder, more rudder below the horizontal stabilizer is much
more effective in an upright spin. Read Alan Cassidy's book "Better
Aerobatics" for an indepth explanation.
Anyway, that is my 10 years experience with spins in my RV6. Your RV6 may be different!
Bob
RV6
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in an RV-6 |
I definately agree with Stein and Bob, they have not really contradiced
each other. My RV-6 is clearly different than Bobs. While spin recovery
is reliably prompt if recovered within one turn, fully developed spins are
another matter. Recovery depends highly on development (how many turns so
far), CG and loaded weight (heavier and more aft both slow recovery
significantly), and spin direction (I have a heavy right wing so left spins
recover easier). My engine and FP prop are rather light so I am usually
more aft CG than a lot of RV-6's.
I have been in spins where static spin recovery inputs don't do it.
Meaning, neither releasing back pressure nor holding the stick forward
would allow recovery by itself (oppisite rudder being applied). The
technique in my plane is to relase back pressure until the rotation slows,
then briskly but smoothly move the stick forward before the spin develops
in the oppisite direction. It is a very re-assuring feeing when you feel
the plane start to 'fly' again.
The first couple of turns are steeply pointed downward and lazy feeling
(except for the abrupt pitch downward). Developed spins are flat and quick
enough to send all the fuel outboard in the tanks making the engine stop
and oil pressure goes away. Quite a ride really. I loose about 400' per
turn. I begin recovery no less than 6k' AGL. It takes 2-4 turns to
recover from a developed spin especially if you don't do it right the first
time.
Snap rolls are fun and recover instantly but seem to stress out the tail
wheel linkages when I do them.
As for upgrading the rudder in the -6 the the 7/8 rudder - the main
advantage there is the counterbalance, giving a wider margin from flutter.
I know the rudder are also bigger, but I have never really felt that I
needed more rudder.
That is my experience.
--
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Stein Bruch <stein@steinair.com> wrote:
>
> I would agree with much of what you said below, however having built and
> owned a number of RV6's over the past decades I will attest to the fact
> that the differences between planes and their configurations can be a HUG
E
> factor in this particular airframe....specifically engine/prop combos,
> battery location, fuel levels, CG, W&B, etc.. Indeed some of them behave
> exactly as Bob mentioned below, but then again some of them are just
> absolute tigers (meaning they will wind up quickly and will NOT come out
in
> a half turn no matter what you do or how good you are). My point of
> caution is that just because one particular airframe may behave that way
> and allow a quick spin recovery, my experience is that many -6's will not
> (and some -4's as well). I certainly wouldn=92t out practicing for my fi
rst
> time with that assumption! In the end though, some of them do behave in t
he
> way that absolutely requires you to work hard in order to even get them
> into a spin (much less maintain it).
>
> Just my 2 cents as usual!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stein
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Panama Red
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 3:34 PM
> To: Panama Red; rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Spins in an RV-6
>
>
> Recently posted on the VAF:
>
>
> I disagree. I have an RV6 with the small rudder and I intentionally spin
> it almost every flight. I fly the IAC sportsman aerobatic sequence with
> it and have no problems. One must just carefully watch entry and exit
> speeds on some maneuvers. I do not like the term "gentleman aerobatics,"
> it implies to me that you fly the maneuver sloppily with a who cares
> attitude.
> I fly each maneuver as precisely and as aggressively as possible (by
> aggressive I don't mean violent, but when it is time to pull to 4Gs, then
> smoothly, but quickly ...PULL TO 4Gs!).
>
>
> As for spins:
>
> 1. It takes a positive prospin inputs to enter and stay in the spin. My
> RV does not like to spin without aggressive prospin inputs, my RV has
> failed to spin on numerous occasions (that gentleman aerobatic stuff).
>
> 2. Spin recovery:
>
> a. Throttle off
>
> b. Opposite rudder
>
> c. And or Release back pressure (I find if I release back pressure
> too soon the spin will stop before I apply opposite rudder)
>
> d. If you do both as the Briggs-Meyer technique describes, then the
> spin stops instantaneously.
>
> 3. Competition spins are only 1-2 turns, never more than two. To stay i
n
> the spin beyond the first half turn requires that positive prospin inputs
> be maintained. I do not spin more than 2 turns as there is no point for
> aerobatic competitions.
>
> 4. Unintentional spins with power on. If you fly based upon airspeed, G
> number and bank angle, how on earth would this happen? But if it does, s
pin
> exit:
>
> a. reduce power
>
> b. release all controls
>
> c. If spin hasn't stopped, apply opposite rudder
>
> d. Reduce back pressure if any (my old flight instructor told me, yo
u
> can't spin if the wing isn't stalled). Van recommends forward push, poin
t
> is that elevator should go to neutral. NOTE: if you use to much negativ
e
> elevator during the recovery it is possible in some aircraft to do a
> crossover spin, i.e. recover from a upright spin into an inverted spin.
>
> e. Recover to level flight, then add power.
>
> 5. For a competition spin, after spin stops, aircraft must recover to a
> vertical downline, then recover to straight and level. After the spin
> stops, it is easy to recover to straight and level, don't need power. Bu
t
> for competition spins it takes a significant amount of forward push to ge
t
> the aircraft into the vertical downline. NOTE: the idea of going to a
> vertical downline is to gain sufficient airspeed to insure one does not
> recover to level flight in a stall condition. This is really not a probl
em
> with an RV.
>
> 6. If you find yourself in an unintentional spin, then you should be abl
e
> to recover in 1/2 turn or less (but it will take practice). Spins in an
> RV6 should be no more scary than any other maneuver. If you have never
> done a spin, get a flight instructor to show you how. If you fear the
> spin, then it is due to a lack of spin understanding and practice rather
> than of any real danger, unless you are doing it less than 1,000 feet AGL
!
> My competition spins need 600-900 feet to complete, that includes the
> intentional downline. I probably could do a 1/2 turn spin and recover in
> less than 300 feet.
>
>
> BTW, from an aerodynamic standpoint, higher vertical rudder is not the
> best answer for increased spin recovery as the wing tends to blank out th
e
> top portion of the rudder, more rudder below the horizontal stabilizer is
> much
> more effective in an upright spin. Read Alan Cassidy's book "Better
> Aerobatics" for an indepth explanation.
>
>
> Anyway, that is my 10 years experience with spins in my RV6. Your RV6 ma
y
> be different!
>
>
> Bob
>
> RV6
>
>
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>
>
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