Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:56 PM - External Flight Plans - Dynon Skyview/Garmin 696 (Matt Dralle)
2. 02:58 PM - External Flight Plans - Dynon Skyview/Garmin 696 (Matt Dralle)
3. 04:24 PM - Re: (Case 117320) VP-200 Compatibility with Dynon Skyview 5.1 EMS Data (Matt Dralle)
4. 11:13 PM - Sensenich Composite Prop (DEAN PSIROPOULOS)
Message 1
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| Subject: | External Flight Plans - Dynon Skyview/Garmin 696 |
Dear Listers,
Below is a dialog that I'm currently having with Dynon technical support regarding
the support for External Flight Plans on the Dynon Skyview. I have a Garmin
696 connected serially to the Dynon and use it for primary GPS positional data.
I would like to also have it transfer the current flight plan data as its
a LOT easier to look up remote airports, etc. on the Garmin696. But, for some
reason, the flight plan data doesn't seem to propagate to the Skyview; I can
only assume because the Dynon is ignoring the GPRMB NMEA0182 data fields.
In contrast, I have a King Skymap IIIc connected to the GRT HXs in the RV-8 (for
testing) and I am able to easily get external flight plan data from the Skymap
to the GRT HX over the serial line (see screen shots)
Finally, with the new ADSB receiver on the Skyview, I'm no longer getting Traffic
data on the Garmin 696. With just the Mode S transponder, I get traffic targets
when I'm in traffic areas so the TIS data link (Skyvew->Garmin696) seems
to be working. But as soon as I enable the ADSB receiver, I no longer get the
traffic on the Garmin 696 even though the ADSB traffic is showing up on the
Skyview Map and PDF displays.
Below are some composite screen shots I made for Dynon with embedded comments and
documentation to describe what I'm seeing. I thought I'd share with the rest
of the group in case someone maybe had some feedback or thoughts.
-
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log
http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log
http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...
RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"
http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log
Status: 120+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode
At 10:36 AM 2/1/2013 Friday, you wrote:
>Matt,
>
>Please do send some screen shots. We will fly a flight plan from the Garmin. Do
you see the CDI on the HSI?
>
>I can make sense out of this with a picture.
>
>Mike H
>
>Dynon Avionics Technical Support
>support@dynonavionics.com
>Phone: 425-402-0433 - 07:00-17:00 Pacific weekdays
>---
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com>
>Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 10:01:39 -0800
>To: "Dynon Technical Support" <support@dynonavionics.com>
>Cc: "dralle@matronics.com" <dralle@matronics.com>, "michael Woolson" <mrwoolson@prodigy.net>
>Subject: Re: (Case 117228) Garmin GPS696 Input to Skyview
>
>>Hi Mike,
>>
>>That's not what I'm talking about. What I mean is when I go into the Garmin
and enter in a flight plan. For example, KLVK to KEDU to KMRY. These destinations
are being transmitted by the Garmin over the NMEA 0183 serial output but
the Skyview isn't using them. I have to go into the Skyview and reenter the
destinations.
>>
>>In contrast, on my Garmin to GRT HX installation, if I have a flight plan entered
into the Garmin, that information is picked up and used by the GRT HX. If
I don't have a flight plan on the Garmin, then the GRT HX uses whatever I enter
in on the GRT HX. I can sent you some screen shots if you want.
>>
>>Matt
>>
>>At 09:26 AM 2/1/2013 Friday, you wrote:
>>
Hi Mike,
Please see that attached two images. The first describes what I'm seeing on the
Dynon/Garmin696 and the second shows what I'm getting on the GRT HX/SkymapIIIc.
The third shot is of my Dynon and Garmin 696 configuration.
Note that with the Dynon, there's no external flight plan data utiliation.
Note on the GRT, there is full external flight plan data utilization. I've included
the NMEA0183 data strings that include the flight plan data.
Also note, the lack of ADSB traffic on the Garmin 696 when the ADSB is enabled.
With the ADSB DISABLED, the Mode S traffic appears.
Emacs!
Emacs!
Emacs!
Message 2
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| Subject: | External Flight Plans - Dynon Skyview/Garmin 696 |
Dear Listers,
Below is a dialog that I'm currently having with Dynon technical support regarding
the support for External Flight Plans on the Dynon Skyview. I have a Garmin
696 connected serially to the Dynon and use it for primary GPS positional data.
I would like to also have it transfer the current flight plan data as its
a LOT easier to look up remote airports, etc. on the Garmin696. But, for some
reason, the flight plan data doesn't seem to propagate to the Skyview; I can
only assume because the Dynon is ignoring the GPRMB NMEA0182 data fields.
In contrast, I have a King Skymap IIIc connected to the GRT HXs in the RV-8 (for
testing) and I am able to easily get external flight plan data from the Skymap
to the GRT HX over the serial line (see screen shots)
Finally, with the new ADSB receiver on the Skyview, I'm no longer getting Traffic
data on the Garmin 696. With just the Mode S transponder, I get traffic targets
when I'm in traffic areas so the TIS data link (Skyvew->Garmin696) seems
to be working. But as soon as I enable the ADSB receiver, I no longer get the
traffic on the Garmin 696 even though the ADSB traffic is showing up on the
Skyview Map and PDF displays.
Below are some composite screen shots I made for Dynon with embedded comments and
documentation to describe what I'm seeing. I thought I'd share with the rest
of the group in case someone maybe had some feedback or thoughts.
-
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log
http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log
http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...
RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"
http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log
Status: 120+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode
At 10:36 AM 2/1/2013 Friday, you wrote:
>Matt,
>
>Please do send some screen shots. We will fly a flight plan from the Garmin. Do
you see the CDI on the HSI?
>
>I can make sense out of this with a picture.
>
>Mike H
>
>Dynon Avionics Technical Support
>support@dynonavionics.com
>Phone: 425-402-0433 - 07:00-17:00 Pacific weekdays
>---
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com>
>Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 10:01:39 -0800
>To: "Dynon Technical Support" <support@dynonavionics.com>
>Cc: "dralle@matronics.com" <dralle@matronics.com>, "michael Woolson" <mrwoolson@prodigy.net>
>Subject: Re: (Case 117228) Garmin GPS696 Input to Skyview
>
>>Hi Mike,
>>
>>That's not what I'm talking about. What I mean is when I go into the Garmin
and enter in a flight plan. For example, KLVK to KEDU to KMRY. These destinations
are being transmitted by the Garmin over the NMEA 0183 serial output but
the Skyview isn't using them. I have to go into the Skyview and reenter the
destinations.
>>
>>In contrast, on my Garmin to GRT HX installation, if I have a flight plan entered
into the Garmin, that information is picked up and used by the GRT HX. If
I don't have a flight plan on the Garmin, then the GRT HX uses whatever I enter
in on the GRT HX. I can sent you some screen shots if you want.
>>
>>Matt
>>
>>At 09:26 AM 2/1/2013 Friday, you wrote:
>>
Hi Mike,
Please see that attached two images. The first describes what I'm seeing on the
Dynon/Garmin696 and the second shows what I'm getting on the GRT HX/SkymapIIIc.
The third shot is of my Dynon and Garmin 696 configuration.
Note that with the Dynon, there's no external flight plan data utiliation.
Note on the GRT, there is full external flight plan data utilization. I've included
the NMEA0183 data strings that include the flight plan data.
Also note, the lack of ADSB traffic on the Garmin 696 when the ADSB is enabled.
With the ADSB DISABLED, the Mode S traffic appears.
Emacs!
Emacs!
Emacs!
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: (Case 117320) VP-200 Compatibility with Dynon Skyview 5.1 |
EMS Data
(I sent the message below to Dynon this afternoon. FYI -Matt)
Dear Dynon Support,
I was forwarded the text immediately below regarding the new Skyview Version 5.1
issue and EMS data stream compatibility with Vertical Power VP-200
I think that Dynon is kind of missing the point here. Dynon has, for all intents
and purposes, developed a "standard" for this EMS data format. Whether arbitrary
3rd parties use it and/or communicate that use to Dynon is also beside
the point. Dynon has committed to a certain format and as such cannot change
it without incurring some serious, potentially negative and/or life threatening
ramifications in the field. The designers of TCP/IP didn't just randomly decide
to change the order and meaning byte values in the standard. A standard
is a standard. When its done and released, *its done*. Version 1.0 cannot be
updated.
Adding a "version string" to the data stream doesn't work either as the devices
listening to version 1.0 don't know the version string is there and are equally
as broken.
The only option is to version each new format and allow the user to select between
the various version. Or, depending on the flexibility of the protocol, ADD
new data strings to the format. But the original data strings *cannot* be changed.
For example, in NMEA0183, $GPGGAxxx, $GPRMCxxx etc. allow for a progression
of new formats to be added. But the format of $GPGGAxxx always has to
remain the same.
I work at a Government research laboratory in Livermore where I engineer and write
embedded firmware for remote security terminals that are used throughout the
Department of Energy sites. Part of that responsibility is to design, implement,
and utilize serial protocols for communicating between various devices
over both RS485 and Ethernet. If I were to make a change to our protocol like
Dynon has done in the upgrade between 5.0 and 5.1, I would be fired. Plain and
simple. Even IF everyone that is using the protocol happens to be notified
of the change, there is still the issue of incrementally upgrading all of the
end devices.
I guess my point here is that Dynon needs to take their various "proprietary" serial
protocols a whole lot more seriously. I believe this is now at least the
*third* time that a protocol change has adversely impacted the user community.
That is *not* acceptable. I would have probably been fired after the first
indiscretion, if not strongly reprimanded. The second and third times would
just not have happened.
For protocol versioning control, Dynon needs to either add additional named strings
to their protocol or they need to simply start versioning each change AND
including support for all versions in their products. For example, the user
should be able to select between EMS Version 1 or EMS Version 2 or EMS Version
3 from the configuration menu. The format of EMS Version 1 or any previous versions
can never change; period.
And finally, given Dynon's lackadaisical attitude toward their protocol specifications,
I find it almost impossible to believe that a simple downgrade from Version
5.1 to 5.0 is, by default, disallowed? Why aren't the same Draconian version
control practices imposed on the customers, applied to their software developers
as well?
Matt Dralle
RV-8/RV-6/RV-4
>Forwarded Email (Originally from Dynon Support)
>
> We updated the serial stream because we had some important customers that asked
for specific elements to be added to the stream. We knew this was a possibility
since day one, and even put a version number in the serial stream so an
application can tell that the stream has been changed. We would always prefer
to not change the format, but at some point you need to balance the needs of a
variety of customers, and we had a clear business case to support customers asking
for new features in the serial stream.
>
>One of the issues here is that the VP-200 is not a product we "support." While
we have official support for the VP-X,
>Vertical Power used our serial stream for the VP-200 on their own accord without
any input from us. This is fine and in fact the whole reason that we created
a documented serial stream, but this means we didn't even really know they were
using it so it's hard for us to realize that we were going to break anything.
Compatibility is something that we test every release for products we support,
but isn't something that we can promise for arbitrary 3rd party devices
that few of our customers use.
>
>We only moved a few parameters around in the new serial stream, so it's unfortunate
that it will take them months to fix this as it's likely just a few constants
in their code to make it work again.
>
>It is possible to revert to 5.0 without much hassle. Contact support via email
or phone and we can send you instructions.
At 03:48 PM 2/1/2013 Friday, Dynon Technical Support wrote:
>Matt:
>
>Another customer told us today that Vertical Power recommended not updating to
v5.1 because of changes Dynon made to the streaming data format.
>
>We advise talking to Vertical Power first.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Steve
>
>Dynon Avionics Technical Support
>support@dynonavionics.com
>Phone: 425-402-0433 - 07:00-17:00 Pacific weekdays
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com>
>Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 15:26:51 -0800
>To: "support@dynonavionics.com" <support@dynonavionics.com>
>Cc: "support@verticalpower.com" <support@verticalpower.com>
>Subject: VP-200 Compatibility with Dynon Skyview 5.1 EMS Data
>
>>With the release of Skyview 5.1, it seems there might be an issue with the new
EMS data format from the Skyview and compatibility with the Vertical Power VP-200
EMS input.
>>
>>I haven't upgraded my Skyview from 5.0 to 5.1 but I was planning to on Saturday.
Any thoughts?
>>
>>Here's the thread from the RV10-List Forum (towards the bottom):
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393418#393418
>>
>>Thanks for your help,
>>
>>Matt Dralle
>>
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | 581 Jeannie Way | Livermore | CA | 94550
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Message 4
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| Subject: | Sensenich Composite Prop |
A friend who is a corporate pilot and uses his RV-6A to commute to work was
the fortunate person who got to do the testing of this new prop (on his 160
Lycoming). Early on there were some serious issues that it looks like
Sensenich has (mostly) solved. One of those issues was that the leading
edge had a tendency to erode in rain and that was supposed to be fixed by
installing a metal overlay that covers the material around and about a
quarter inch back from leading edge. When I stopped to visit Ed last
Saturday, I was looking at the prop and noticed that some of the surface of
what looks like a resin top coat (that extends just slightly above the
surface of the leading edge metal overlay about 1/16th inch) had chipped off
behind the metal overlay in a few places.
I didn't get a chance to ask Ed what had caused that so I don't know what
his thoughts are on it. Ed does fly the RV-6A day/night in all kinds of
weather and through the heavy afternoon Florida summer downpours and, he was
getting tired of worrying about the leading edges of the wood prop he was
using (didn't want to have to detour around heavy weather when he had to be
at work ASAP). The prop was still on the airplane and he was obviously still
flying it that way so it's not a structural issue (the only way I can think
to describe it is if there had been a buildup of "bondo" behind the leading
edge metal overlay and rain or some other substance had struck the edge of
the "bondo" (that stuck up just behind the metal overlay) and just chipped
the "bondo" away from the surface of the blade about 1/4 in back from the
metal overlay and about 1/4 inch wide in a few places). The blade structure
did not look compromised to me but, had I spent $3500.00 on that prop (and
it's asthetically a beautiful looking prop) only to have some of the blade
surface resin chip away, I would not be too happy about it. This resin to
which I'm referring to may just be a very thick coat of epoxy paint but the
chipping still ruins the asthetics of the prop when you look at it up close,
something I'm sure their customers would not be happy about in any case.
Sensenich also makes a smaller version of this prop that is used on the
Rotax 912 (100HP) engines. Tampa Bay Aerosports installs this prop on their
Revo weight shift trikes that they sell and I know some folks that own these
trikes. They had returned one the blades to Sensenich for some work due to
some of the resin chipping off similar to what I described above. Last I
talked to them they had flown with the repaired blade for several hours only
to have the problem recur (I inspected that blade and it looked a bit more
serious like maybe a rock had struck the blade the second time so it may not
have been a faulty repair, I won't know until I talk to them again).
Obviously an issue like this resin chipping is not something one would want
to have occur very often. The good part is that, IT IS Sensenich and they
make these in Plant City Florida so if you live in the USA it will be a lot
less inconvenient than sending an MT prop back to Germany. But, it would
mean having the airplane not flyable for a few weeks while the prop is
repaired and that's not something we all want to happen often.
As far as the performance of the prop, Ed has great things to say about
that, he loves it. Smooth, light and easy to adjust for the performance
you want and he says it performs a lot like a CS prop without all the weight
and complexity. So if they get this chipping resin problem solved I may
have to consider one myself.
Before I get the Plant City folks too ticked off at me though, let me
recommend their metal RV props. I've been using their FP metal prop on a 180
HP RV-6A for several years and I love it. Yes it's a little heavier than
wood or composite (40Lbs vs about 15 for wood and its mounting hardware) but
it is very robust and even though it's a cruise prop that doesn't give me
full RPM for takeoff, that's not an issue with extra power the RV has. Also,
if you are going to fly with two people and baggage for long trips, you
might need that extra weight up front to avoid weight and balance issues. I
had considered composite and Hartzell CS props while building the RV and
just couldn't justify spending the money when FP RVs have more than adequate
power available for takeoff. Sure if you are flying out of a high altitude
short strip, you might need every ounce of power you'd get from a CS
installation but, very rarely and, I'd rather put the $3-5 thousand extra
dollars in the gas tank and have that much more flying time. The MT props
are beautiful smooth and light but, aside from the cost to purchase, having
to remove them for maintenance and send them to Germany at great expense at
fairly regular intervals makes even less sense than buying a Hartzell CS.
Just one RV guy's opinion, consider what you paid for it.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A 197DM
3+ years of flying fun
________________________________ Original Message
_____________________________________
From: "charlie" <cheathco@cox.net>
Subject: RV-List: Ground adjustable composit prop for RV's
Sensenich will begin deliveries next month. Wondering if anyone with
o-320 (which is what they are made for) is, or would consider installing
one? Charlie H
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