---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/03/13: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:56 PM - External Flight Plans - Dynon Skyview/Garmin 696 (Matt Dralle) 2. 02:58 PM - External Flight Plans - Dynon Skyview/Garmin 696 (Matt Dralle) 3. 04:24 PM - Re: (Case 117320) VP-200 Compatibility with Dynon Skyview 5.1 EMS Data (Matt Dralle) 4. 11:13 PM - Sensenich Composite Prop (DEAN PSIROPOULOS) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:56:49 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: External Flight Plans - Dynon Skyview/Garmin 696 Dear Listers, Below is a dialog that I'm currently having with Dynon technical support regarding the support for External Flight Plans on the Dynon Skyview. I have a Garmin 696 connected serially to the Dynon and use it for primary GPS positional data. I would like to also have it transfer the current flight plan data as its a LOT easier to look up remote airports, etc. on the Garmin696. But, for some reason, the flight plan data doesn't seem to propagate to the Skyview; I can only assume because the Dynon is ignoring the GPRMB NMEA0182 data fields. In contrast, I have a King Skymap IIIc connected to the GRT HXs in the RV-8 (for testing) and I am able to easily get external flight plan data from the Skymap to the GRT HX over the serial line (see screen shots) Finally, with the new ADSB receiver on the Skyview, I'm no longer getting Traffic data on the Garmin 696. With just the Mode S transponder, I get traffic targets when I'm in traffic areas so the TIS data link (Skyvew->Garmin696) seems to be working. But as soon as I enable the ADSB receiver, I no longer get the traffic on the Garmin 696 even though the ADSB traffic is showing up on the Skyview Map and PDF displays. Below are some composite screen shots I made for Dynon with embedded comments and documentation to describe what I'm seeing. I thought I'd share with the rest of the group in case someone maybe had some feedback or thoughts. - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap... RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer" http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log Status: 120+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode At 10:36 AM 2/1/2013 Friday, you wrote: >Matt, > >Please do send some screen shots. We will fly a flight plan from the Garmin. Do you see the CDI on the HSI? > >I can make sense out of this with a picture. > >Mike H > >Dynon Avionics Technical Support >support@dynonavionics.com >Phone: 425-402-0433 - 07:00-17:00 Pacific weekdays >--- > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Matt Dralle" >Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 10:01:39 -0800 >To: "Dynon Technical Support" >Cc: "dralle@matronics.com" , "michael Woolson" >Subject: Re: (Case 117228) Garmin GPS696 Input to Skyview > >>Hi Mike, >> >>That's not what I'm talking about. What I mean is when I go into the Garmin and enter in a flight plan. For example, KLVK to KEDU to KMRY. These destinations are being transmitted by the Garmin over the NMEA 0183 serial output but the Skyview isn't using them. I have to go into the Skyview and reenter the destinations. >> >>In contrast, on my Garmin to GRT HX installation, if I have a flight plan entered into the Garmin, that information is picked up and used by the GRT HX. If I don't have a flight plan on the Garmin, then the GRT HX uses whatever I enter in on the GRT HX. I can sent you some screen shots if you want. >> >>Matt >> >>At 09:26 AM 2/1/2013 Friday, you wrote: >> Hi Mike, Please see that attached two images. The first describes what I'm seeing on the Dynon/Garmin696 and the second shows what I'm getting on the GRT HX/SkymapIIIc. The third shot is of my Dynon and Garmin 696 configuration. Note that with the Dynon, there's no external flight plan data utiliation. Note on the GRT, there is full external flight plan data utilization. I've included the NMEA0183 data strings that include the flight plan data. Also note, the lack of ADSB traffic on the Garmin 696 when the ADSB is enabled. With the ADSB DISABLED, the Mode S traffic appears. Emacs! Emacs! Emacs! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:58:36 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: External Flight Plans - Dynon Skyview/Garmin 696 Dear Listers, Below is a dialog that I'm currently having with Dynon technical support regarding the support for External Flight Plans on the Dynon Skyview. I have a Garmin 696 connected serially to the Dynon and use it for primary GPS positional data. I would like to also have it transfer the current flight plan data as its a LOT easier to look up remote airports, etc. on the Garmin696. But, for some reason, the flight plan data doesn't seem to propagate to the Skyview; I can only assume because the Dynon is ignoring the GPRMB NMEA0182 data fields. In contrast, I have a King Skymap IIIc connected to the GRT HXs in the RV-8 (for testing) and I am able to easily get external flight plan data from the Skymap to the GRT HX over the serial line (see screen shots) Finally, with the new ADSB receiver on the Skyview, I'm no longer getting Traffic data on the Garmin 696. With just the Mode S transponder, I get traffic targets when I'm in traffic areas so the TIS data link (Skyvew->Garmin696) seems to be working. But as soon as I enable the ADSB receiver, I no longer get the traffic on the Garmin 696 even though the ADSB traffic is showing up on the Skyview Map and PDF displays. Below are some composite screen shots I made for Dynon with embedded comments and documentation to describe what I'm seeing. I thought I'd share with the rest of the group in case someone maybe had some feedback or thoughts. - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap... RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer" http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log Status: 120+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode At 10:36 AM 2/1/2013 Friday, you wrote: >Matt, > >Please do send some screen shots. We will fly a flight plan from the Garmin. Do you see the CDI on the HSI? > >I can make sense out of this with a picture. > >Mike H > >Dynon Avionics Technical Support >support@dynonavionics.com >Phone: 425-402-0433 - 07:00-17:00 Pacific weekdays >--- > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Matt Dralle" >Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 10:01:39 -0800 >To: "Dynon Technical Support" >Cc: "dralle@matronics.com" , "michael Woolson" >Subject: Re: (Case 117228) Garmin GPS696 Input to Skyview > >>Hi Mike, >> >>That's not what I'm talking about. What I mean is when I go into the Garmin and enter in a flight plan. For example, KLVK to KEDU to KMRY. These destinations are being transmitted by the Garmin over the NMEA 0183 serial output but the Skyview isn't using them. I have to go into the Skyview and reenter the destinations. >> >>In contrast, on my Garmin to GRT HX installation, if I have a flight plan entered into the Garmin, that information is picked up and used by the GRT HX. If I don't have a flight plan on the Garmin, then the GRT HX uses whatever I enter in on the GRT HX. I can sent you some screen shots if you want. >> >>Matt >> >>At 09:26 AM 2/1/2013 Friday, you wrote: >> Hi Mike, Please see that attached two images. The first describes what I'm seeing on the Dynon/Garmin696 and the second shows what I'm getting on the GRT HX/SkymapIIIc. The third shot is of my Dynon and Garmin 696 configuration. Note that with the Dynon, there's no external flight plan data utiliation. Note on the GRT, there is full external flight plan data utilization. I've included the NMEA0183 data strings that include the flight plan data. Also note, the lack of ADSB traffic on the Garmin 696 when the ADSB is enabled. With the ADSB DISABLED, the Mode S traffic appears. Emacs! Emacs! Emacs! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:33 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Re: (Case 117320) VP-200 Compatibility with Dynon Skyview 5.1 EMS Data (I sent the message below to Dynon this afternoon. FYI -Matt) Dear Dynon Support, I was forwarded the text immediately below regarding the new Skyview Version 5.1 issue and EMS data stream compatibility with Vertical Power VP-200 I think that Dynon is kind of missing the point here. Dynon has, for all intents and purposes, developed a "standard" for this EMS data format. Whether arbitrary 3rd parties use it and/or communicate that use to Dynon is also beside the point. Dynon has committed to a certain format and as such cannot change it without incurring some serious, potentially negative and/or life threatening ramifications in the field. The designers of TCP/IP didn't just randomly decide to change the order and meaning byte values in the standard. A standard is a standard. When its done and released, *its done*. Version 1.0 cannot be updated. Adding a "version string" to the data stream doesn't work either as the devices listening to version 1.0 don't know the version string is there and are equally as broken. The only option is to version each new format and allow the user to select between the various version. Or, depending on the flexibility of the protocol, ADD new data strings to the format. But the original data strings *cannot* be changed. For example, in NMEA0183, $GPGGAxxx, $GPRMCxxx etc. allow for a progression of new formats to be added. But the format of $GPGGAxxx always has to remain the same. I work at a Government research laboratory in Livermore where I engineer and write embedded firmware for remote security terminals that are used throughout the Department of Energy sites. Part of that responsibility is to design, implement, and utilize serial protocols for communicating between various devices over both RS485 and Ethernet. If I were to make a change to our protocol like Dynon has done in the upgrade between 5.0 and 5.1, I would be fired. Plain and simple. Even IF everyone that is using the protocol happens to be notified of the change, there is still the issue of incrementally upgrading all of the end devices. I guess my point here is that Dynon needs to take their various "proprietary" serial protocols a whole lot more seriously. I believe this is now at least the *third* time that a protocol change has adversely impacted the user community. That is *not* acceptable. I would have probably been fired after the first indiscretion, if not strongly reprimanded. The second and third times would just not have happened. For protocol versioning control, Dynon needs to either add additional named strings to their protocol or they need to simply start versioning each change AND including support for all versions in their products. For example, the user should be able to select between EMS Version 1 or EMS Version 2 or EMS Version 3 from the configuration menu. The format of EMS Version 1 or any previous versions can never change; period. And finally, given Dynon's lackadaisical attitude toward their protocol specifications, I find it almost impossible to believe that a simple downgrade from Version 5.1 to 5.0 is, by default, disallowed? Why aren't the same Draconian version control practices imposed on the customers, applied to their software developers as well? Matt Dralle RV-8/RV-6/RV-4 >Forwarded Email (Originally from Dynon Support) > > We updated the serial stream because we had some important customers that asked for specific elements to be added to the stream. We knew this was a possibility since day one, and even put a version number in the serial stream so an application can tell that the stream has been changed. We would always prefer to not change the format, but at some point you need to balance the needs of a variety of customers, and we had a clear business case to support customers asking for new features in the serial stream. > >One of the issues here is that the VP-200 is not a product we "support." While we have official support for the VP-X, >Vertical Power used our serial stream for the VP-200 on their own accord without any input from us. This is fine and in fact the whole reason that we created a documented serial stream, but this means we didn't even really know they were using it so it's hard for us to realize that we were going to break anything. Compatibility is something that we test every release for products we support, but isn't something that we can promise for arbitrary 3rd party devices that few of our customers use. > >We only moved a few parameters around in the new serial stream, so it's unfortunate that it will take them months to fix this as it's likely just a few constants in their code to make it work again. > >It is possible to revert to 5.0 without much hassle. Contact support via email or phone and we can send you instructions. At 03:48 PM 2/1/2013 Friday, Dynon Technical Support wrote: >Matt: > >Another customer told us today that Vertical Power recommended not updating to v5.1 because of changes Dynon made to the streaming data format. > >We advise talking to Vertical Power first. > >Thanks, > >Steve > >Dynon Avionics Technical Support >support@dynonavionics.com >Phone: 425-402-0433 - 07:00-17:00 Pacific weekdays > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Matt Dralle" >Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 15:26:51 -0800 >To: "support@dynonavionics.com" >Cc: "support@verticalpower.com" >Subject: VP-200 Compatibility with Dynon Skyview 5.1 EMS Data > >>With the release of Skyview 5.1, it seems there might be an issue with the new EMS data format from the Skyview and compatibility with the Vertical Power VP-200 EMS input. >> >>I haven't upgraded my Skyview from 5.0 to 5.1 but I was planning to on Saturday. Any thoughts? >> >>Here's the thread from the RV10-List Forum (towards the bottom): >> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393418#393418 >> >>Thanks for your help, >> >>Matt Dralle >> Matt G Dralle | Matronics | 581 Jeannie Way | Livermore | CA | 94550 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:13:38 PM PST US From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: RV-List: Sensenich Composite Prop A friend who is a corporate pilot and uses his RV-6A to commute to work was the fortunate person who got to do the testing of this new prop (on his 160 Lycoming). Early on there were some serious issues that it looks like Sensenich has (mostly) solved. One of those issues was that the leading edge had a tendency to erode in rain and that was supposed to be fixed by installing a metal overlay that covers the material around and about a quarter inch back from leading edge. When I stopped to visit Ed last Saturday, I was looking at the prop and noticed that some of the surface of what looks like a resin top coat (that extends just slightly above the surface of the leading edge metal overlay about 1/16th inch) had chipped off behind the metal overlay in a few places. I didn't get a chance to ask Ed what had caused that so I don't know what his thoughts are on it. Ed does fly the RV-6A day/night in all kinds of weather and through the heavy afternoon Florida summer downpours and, he was getting tired of worrying about the leading edges of the wood prop he was using (didn't want to have to detour around heavy weather when he had to be at work ASAP). The prop was still on the airplane and he was obviously still flying it that way so it's not a structural issue (the only way I can think to describe it is if there had been a buildup of "bondo" behind the leading edge metal overlay and rain or some other substance had struck the edge of the "bondo" (that stuck up just behind the metal overlay) and just chipped the "bondo" away from the surface of the blade about 1/4 in back from the metal overlay and about 1/4 inch wide in a few places). The blade structure did not look compromised to me but, had I spent $3500.00 on that prop (and it's asthetically a beautiful looking prop) only to have some of the blade surface resin chip away, I would not be too happy about it. This resin to which I'm referring to may just be a very thick coat of epoxy paint but the chipping still ruins the asthetics of the prop when you look at it up close, something I'm sure their customers would not be happy about in any case. Sensenich also makes a smaller version of this prop that is used on the Rotax 912 (100HP) engines. Tampa Bay Aerosports installs this prop on their Revo weight shift trikes that they sell and I know some folks that own these trikes. They had returned one the blades to Sensenich for some work due to some of the resin chipping off similar to what I described above. Last I talked to them they had flown with the repaired blade for several hours only to have the problem recur (I inspected that blade and it looked a bit more serious like maybe a rock had struck the blade the second time so it may not have been a faulty repair, I won't know until I talk to them again). Obviously an issue like this resin chipping is not something one would want to have occur very often. The good part is that, IT IS Sensenich and they make these in Plant City Florida so if you live in the USA it will be a lot less inconvenient than sending an MT prop back to Germany. But, it would mean having the airplane not flyable for a few weeks while the prop is repaired and that's not something we all want to happen often. As far as the performance of the prop, Ed has great things to say about that, he loves it. Smooth, light and easy to adjust for the performance you want and he says it performs a lot like a CS prop without all the weight and complexity. So if they get this chipping resin problem solved I may have to consider one myself. Before I get the Plant City folks too ticked off at me though, let me recommend their metal RV props. I've been using their FP metal prop on a 180 HP RV-6A for several years and I love it. Yes it's a little heavier than wood or composite (40Lbs vs about 15 for wood and its mounting hardware) but it is very robust and even though it's a cruise prop that doesn't give me full RPM for takeoff, that's not an issue with extra power the RV has. Also, if you are going to fly with two people and baggage for long trips, you might need that extra weight up front to avoid weight and balance issues. I had considered composite and Hartzell CS props while building the RV and just couldn't justify spending the money when FP RVs have more than adequate power available for takeoff. Sure if you are flying out of a high altitude short strip, you might need every ounce of power you'd get from a CS installation but, very rarely and, I'd rather put the $3-5 thousand extra dollars in the gas tank and have that much more flying time. The MT props are beautiful smooth and light but, aside from the cost to purchase, having to remove them for maintenance and send them to Germany at great expense at fairly regular intervals makes even less sense than buying a Hartzell CS. Just one RV guy's opinion, consider what you paid for it. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A 197DM 3+ years of flying fun ________________________________ Original Message _____________________________________ From: "charlie" Subject: RV-List: Ground adjustable composit prop for RV's Sensenich will begin deliveries next month. Wondering if anyone with o-320 (which is what they are made for) is, or would consider installing one? Charlie H ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.