Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:06 AM - Re: Sensenich Composite Prop (Linn)
2. 12:35 PM - Re: Re: (Case 117320) VP-200 Compatibility with Dynon Skyview 5.1 EMS Data (HCRV6@comcast.net)
3. 12:45 PM - Re: Re: (Case 117320) VP-200 Compatibility with Dynon Skyview 5.1 EMS Data (Ralph Finch)
4. 12:52 PM - Fw: [MARKETING] VP-200/Dynon SkyView Service Bulletin (Kelly McMullen)
5. 02:02 PM - Re: RV10-List: Fw: [MARKETING] VP-200/Dynon SkyView Service Bulletin (Pascal)
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| Subject: | Re: Sensenich Composite Prop |
FYI .... MT is located on Deland FL airport .... next to the Gin Mill
restaurant.
Linn
On 2/4/2013 2:12 AM, DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote:
>
> A friend who is a corporate pilot and uses his RV-6A to commute to work was
> the fortunate person who got to do the testing of this new prop (on his 160
> Lycoming). Early on there were some serious issues that it looks like
> Sensenich has (mostly) solved. One of those issues was that the leading
> edge had a tendency to erode in rain and that was supposed to be fixed by
> installing a metal overlay that covers the material around and about a
> quarter inch back from leading edge. When I stopped to visit Ed last
> Saturday, I was looking at the prop and noticed that some of the surface of
> what looks like a resin top coat (that extends just slightly above the
> surface of the leading edge metal overlay about 1/16th inch) had chipped off
> behind the metal overlay in a few places.
>
> I didn't get a chance to ask Ed what had caused that so I don't know what
> his thoughts are on it. Ed does fly the RV-6A day/night in all kinds of
> weather and through the heavy afternoon Florida summer downpours and, he was
> getting tired of worrying about the leading edges of the wood prop he was
> using (didn't want to have to detour around heavy weather when he had to be
> at work ASAP). The prop was still on the airplane and he was obviously still
> flying it that way so it's not a structural issue (the only way I can think
> to describe it is if there had been a buildup of "bondo" behind the leading
> edge metal overlay and rain or some other substance had struck the edge of
> the "bondo" (that stuck up just behind the metal overlay) and just chipped
> the "bondo" away from the surface of the blade about 1/4 in back from the
> metal overlay and about 1/4 inch wide in a few places). The blade structure
> did not look compromised to me but, had I spent $3500.00 on that prop (and
> it's asthetically a beautiful looking prop) only to have some of the blade
> surface resin chip away, I would not be too happy about it. This resin to
> which I'm referring to may just be a very thick coat of epoxy paint but the
> chipping still ruins the asthetics of the prop when you look at it up close,
> something I'm sure their customers would not be happy about in any case.
>
> Sensenich also makes a smaller version of this prop that is used on the
> Rotax 912 (100HP) engines. Tampa Bay Aerosports installs this prop on their
> Revo weight shift trikes that they sell and I know some folks that own these
> trikes. They had returned one the blades to Sensenich for some work due to
> some of the resin chipping off similar to what I described above. Last I
> talked to them they had flown with the repaired blade for several hours only
> to have the problem recur (I inspected that blade and it looked a bit more
> serious like maybe a rock had struck the blade the second time so it may not
> have been a faulty repair, I won't know until I talk to them again).
> Obviously an issue like this resin chipping is not something one would want
> to have occur very often. The good part is that, IT IS Sensenich and they
> make these in Plant City Florida so if you live in the USA it will be a lot
> less inconvenient than sending an MT prop back to Germany. But, it would
> mean having the airplane not flyable for a few weeks while the prop is
> repaired and that's not something we all want to happen often.
>
> As far as the performance of the prop, Ed has great things to say about
> that, he loves it. Smooth, light and easy to adjust for the performance
> you want and he says it performs a lot like a CS prop without all the weight
> and complexity. So if they get this chipping resin problem solved I may
> have to consider one myself.
>
> Before I get the Plant City folks too ticked off at me though, let me
> recommend their metal RV props. I've been using their FP metal prop on a 180
> HP RV-6A for several years and I love it. Yes it's a little heavier than
> wood or composite (40Lbs vs about 15 for wood and its mounting hardware) but
> it is very robust and even though it's a cruise prop that doesn't give me
> full RPM for takeoff, that's not an issue with extra power the RV has. Also,
> if you are going to fly with two people and baggage for long trips, you
> might need that extra weight up front to avoid weight and balance issues. I
> had considered composite and Hartzell CS props while building the RV and
> just couldn't justify spending the money when FP RVs have more than adequate
> power available for takeoff. Sure if you are flying out of a high altitude
> short strip, you might need every ounce of power you'd get from a CS
> installation but, very rarely and, I'd rather put the $3-5 thousand extra
> dollars in the gas tank and have that much more flying time. The MT props
> are beautiful smooth and light but, aside from the cost to purchase, having
> to remove them for maintenance and send them to Germany at great expense at
> fairly regular intervals makes even less sense than buying a Hartzell CS.
> Just one RV guy's opinion, consider what you paid for it.
>
> Dean Psiropoulos
> RV-6A 197DM
> 3+ years of flying fun
> ________________________________ Original Message
> _____________________________________
>
>
> From: "charlie" <cheathco@cox.net>
> Subject: RV-List: Ground adjustable composit prop for RV's
>
> Sensenich will begin deliveries next month. Wondering if anyone with
> o-320 (which is what they are made for) is, or would consider installing
> one? Charlie H
>
>
> -----
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>
>
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| Subject: | Re: (Case 117320) VP-200 Compatibility with Dynon Skyview |
5.1 EMS Data
Matt, Please keep us in the loop when (IF?) Dynon reply's.
Harry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2013 4:17:59 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: (Case 117320) VP-200 Compatibility with Dynon Skyview 5.1
EMS Data
(I sent the message below to Dynon this afternoon. FYI -Matt)
Dear Dynon Support,
I was forwarded the text immediately below regarding the new Skyview Version 5.1
issue and EMS data stream compatibility with Vertical Power VP-200
I think that Dynon is kind of missing the point here. Dynon has, for all intents
and purposes, developed a "standard" for this EMS data format. Whether arbitrary
3rd parties use it and/or communicate that use to Dynon is also beside the
point. Dynon has committed to a certain format and as such cannot change it
without incurring some serious, potentially negative and/or life threatening ramifications
in the field. The designers of TCP/IP didn't just randomly decide
to change the order and meaning byte values in the standard. A standard is a
standard. When its done and released, *its done*. Version 1.0 cannot be updated.
Adding a "version string" to the data stream doesn't work either as the devices
listening to version 1.0 don't know the version string is there and are equally
as broken.
The only option is to version each new format and allow the user to select between
the various version. Or, depending on the flexibility of the protocol, ADD
new data strings to the format. But the original data strings *cannot* be changed.
For example, in NMEA0183, $GPGGAxxx, $GPRMCxxx etc. allow for a progression
of new formats to be added. But the format of $GPGGAxxx always has to remain
the same.
I work at a Government research laboratory in Livermore where I engineer and write
embedded firmware for remote security terminals that are used throughout the
Department of Energy sites. Part of that responsibility is to design, implement,
and utilize serial protocols for communicating between various devices over
both RS485 and Ethernet. If I were to make a change to our protocol like Dynon
has done in the upgrade between 5.0 and 5.1, I would be fired. Plain and
simple. Even IF everyone that is using the protocol happens to be notified of
the change, there is still the issue of incrementally upgrading all of the end
devices.
I guess my point here is that Dynon needs to take their various "proprietary" serial
protocols a whole lot more seriously. I believe this is now at least the
*third* time that a protocol change has adversely impacted the user community.
That is *not* acceptable. I would have probably been fired after the first indiscretion,
if not strongly reprimanded. The second and third times would just
not have happened.
For protocol versioning control, Dynon needs to either add additional named strings
to their protocol or they need to simply start versioning each change AND
including support for all versions in their products. For example, the user should
be able to select between EMS Version 1 or EMS Version 2 or EMS Version
3 from the configuration menu. The format of EMS Version 1 or any previous versions
can never change; period.
And finally, given Dynon's lackadaisical attitude toward their protocol specifications,
I find it almost impossible to believe that a simple downgrade from Version
5.1 to 5.0 is, by default, disallowed? Why aren't the same Draconian version
control practices imposed on the customers, applied to their software developers
as well?
Matt Dralle
RV-8/RV-6/RV-4
>Forwarded Email (Originally from Dynon Support)
>
> We updated the serial stream because we had some important customers that asked
for specific elements to be added to the stream. We knew this was a possibility
since day one, and even put a version number in the serial stream so an application
can tell that the stream has been changed. We would always prefer to
not change the format, but at some point you need to balance the needs of a
variety of customers, and we had a clear business case to support customers asking
for new features in the serial stream.
>
>One of the issues here is that the VP-200 is not a product we "support." While
we have official support for the VP-X,
>Vertical Power used our serial stream for the VP-200 on their own accord without
any input from us. This is fine and in fact the whole reason that we created
a documented serial stream, but this means we didn't even really know they were
using it so it's hard for us to realize that we were going to break anything.
Compatibility is something that we test every release for products we support,
but isn't something that we can promise for arbitrary 3rd party devices that
few of our customers use.
>
>We only moved a few parameters around in the new serial stream, so it's unfortunate
that it will take them months to fix this as it's likely just a few constants
in their code to make it work again.
>
>It is possible to revert to 5.0 without much hassle. Contact support via email
or phone and we can send you instructions.
At 03:48 PM 2/1/2013 Friday, Dynon Technical Support wrote:
>Matt:
>
>Another customer told us today that Vertical Power recommended not updating to
v5.1 because of changes Dynon made to the streaming data format.
>
>We advise talking to Vertical Power first.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Steve
>
>Dynon Avionics Technical Support
>support@dynonavionics.com
>Phone: 425-402-0433 - 07:00-17:00 Pacific weekdays
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com>
>Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 15:26:51 -0800
>To: "support@dynonavionics.com" <support@dynonavionics.com>
>Cc: "support@verticalpower.com" <support@verticalpower.com>
>Subject: VP-200 Compatibility with Dynon Skyview 5.1 EMS Data
>
>>With the release of Skyview 5.1, it seems there might be an issue with the new
EMS data format from the Skyview and compatibility with the Vertical Power VP-200
EMS input.
>>
>>I haven't upgraded my Skyview from 5.0 to 5.1 but I was planning to on Saturday.
Any thoughts?
>>
>>Here's the thread from the RV10-List Forum (towards the bottom):
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393418#393418
>>
>>Thanks for your help,
>>
>>Matt Dralle
>>
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | 581 Jeannie Way | Livermore | CA | 94550
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
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| Subject: | Re: (Case 117320) VP-200 Compatibility with Dynon Skyview |
5.1 EMS Data
The good news is that Vertical Power is working on a fix for this. My
impression is that it won't take ages to deliver a firmware update for
the VP-200. While Dynon's software release practices are poor, the
burden is on VP and other users of Dynon's protocols to update their
products, rather than Dynon take the lead.
RF
On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 12:34 PM, <HCRV6@comcast.net> wrote:
> Matt, Please keep us in the loop when (IF?) Dynon reply's.
>
> Harry
>
> ________________________________
> From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com, rv-list@matronics.com, rv8-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2013 4:17:59 PM
> Subject: RV-List: Re: (Case 117320) VP-200 Compatibility with Dynon Skyview
> 5.1 EMS Data
>
>
> (I sent the message below to Dynon this afternoon. FYI -Matt)
>
>
> Dear Dynon Support,
>
> I was forwarded the text immediately below regarding the new Skyview Version
> 5.1 issue and EMS data stream compatibility with Vertical Power VP-200
>
> I think that Dynon is kind of missing the point here. Dynon has, for all
> intents and purposes, developed a "standard" for this EMS data format.
> Whether arbitrary 3rd parties use it and/or communicate that use to Dynon is
> also beside the point. Dynon has committed to a certain format and as such
> cannot change it without incurring some serious, potentially negative and/or
> life threatening ramifications in the field. The designers of TCP/IP didn't
> just randomly decide to change the order and meaning byte values in the
> standard. A standard is a standard. When its done and released, *its
> done*. Version 1.0 cannot be updated.
>
> Adding a "version string" to the data stream doesn't work either as the
> devices listening to version 1.0 don't know the version string is there and
> are equally as broken.
>
> The only option is to version each new format and allow the user to select
> between the various version. Or, depending on the flexibility of the
> protocol, ADD new data strings to the format. But the original data strings
> *cannot* be changed. For example, in NMEA0183, $GPGGAxxx, $GPRMCxxx etc.
> allow for a progression of new formats to be added. But the format of
> $GPGGAxxx always has to remain the same.
>
> I work at a Government research laboratory in Livermore where I engineer and
> write embedded firmware for remote security terminals that are used
> throughout the Department of Energy sites. Part of that responsibility is
> to design, implement, and utilize serial protocols for communicating between
> various devices over both RS485 and Ethernet. If I were to make a change to
> our protocol like Dynon has done in the upgrade between 5.0 and 5.1, I would
> be fired. Plain and simple. Even IF everyone that is using the protocol
> happens to be notified of the change, there is still the issue of
> incrementally upgrading all of the end devices.
>
> I guess my point here is that Dynon needs to take their various
> "proprietary" serial protocols a whole lot more seriously. I believe this
> is now at least the *third* time that a protocol change has adversely
> impacted the user community. That is *not* acceptable. I would have
> probably been fired after the first indiscretion, if not strongly
> reprimanded. The second and third times would just not have happened.
>
> For protocol versioning control, Dynon needs to either add additional named
> strings to their protocol or they need to simply start versioning each
> change AND including support for all versions in their products. For
> example, the user should be able to select between EMS Version 1 or EMS
> Version 2 or EMS Version 3 from the configuration menu. The format of EMS
> Version 1 or any previous versions can never change; period.
>
> And finally, given Dynon's lackadaisical attitude toward their protocol
> specifications, I find it almost impossible to believe that a simple
> downgrade from Version 5.1 to 5.0 is, by default, disallowed? Why aren't
> the same Draconian version control practices imposed on the customers,
> applied to their software developers as well?
>
> Matt Dralle
> RV-8/RV-6/RV-4
>
>
>>Forwarded Email (Originally from Dynon Support)
>>
>> We updated the serial stream because we had some important customers that
>> asked for specific elements to be added to the stream. We knew this was a
>> possibility since day one, and even put a version number in the serial
>> stream so an application can tell that the stream has been changed. We would
>> always prefer to not change the format, but at some point you need to
>> balance the needs of a variety of customers, and we had a clear business
>> case to support customers asking for new features in the serial stream.
>>
>>One of the issues here is that the VP-200 is not a product we "support."
>> While we have official support for the VP-X,
>>Vertical Power used our serial stream for the VP-200 on their own accord
>> without any input from us. This is fine and in fact the whole reason that we
>> created a documented serial stream, but this means we didn't even really
>> know they were using it so it's hard for us to realize that we were going to
>> break anything. Compatibility is something that we test every release for
>> products we support, but isn't something that we can promise for arbitrary
>> 3rd party devices that few of our customers use.
>>
>>We only moved a few parameters around in the new serial stream, so it's
>> unfortunate that it will take them months to fix this as it's likely just a
>> few constants in their code to make it work again.
>>
>>It is possible to revert to 5.0 without much hassle. Contact support via
>> email or phone and we can send you instructions.
>
>
> At 03:48 PM 2/1/2013 Friday, Dynon Technical Support wrote:
>>Matt:
>>
>>Another customer told us today that Vertical Power recommended not updating
>> to v5.1 because of changes Dynon made to the streaming data format.
>>
>>We advise talking to Vertical Power first.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Steve
>>
>>Dynon Avionics Technical Support
>>support@dynonavionics.com
>>Phone: 425-402-0433 - 07:00-17:00 Pacific weekdays
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com>
>>Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 15:26:51 -0800
>>To: "support@dynonavionics.com" <support@dynonavionics.com>
>>Cc: "support@verticalpower.com" <support@verticalpower.com>
>>Subject: VP-200 Compatibility with Dynon Skyview 5.1 EMS Data
>>
>>>With the release of Skyview 5.1, it seems there might be an issue with the
>>> new EMS data format from the Skyview and compatibility with the Vertical
>>> Power VP-200 EMS input.
>>>
>>>I haven't upgraded my Skyview from 5.0 to 5.1 but I was planning to on
>>> Saturday. Any thoughts?
>>>
>>>Here's the thread from the RV10-List Forum (towards the bottom):
>>>
>>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393418#393418
>>>
>>>Thanks for your help,
>>>
>>>Matt Dralle
>>>
>
>
> Matt G Dralle | Matronics | 581 Jeannie Way | Livermore | CA | 94550
> 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
> http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
>
>
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| Subject: | Fwd: [MARKETING] VP-200/Dynon SkyView Service Bulletin |
Well, at least Vertical Power is listening.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [MARKETING] VP-200/Dynon SkyView Service Bulletin
From: Vertical Power Support <support@verticalpower.com>
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*Service Bulletin:*
*VP-200 and Dynon SkyView*
**
Dynon recently released SkyView 5.1 that added some new data logging
features and at the same time affected the interface to the VP-200.
If you have a VP-200 and Dynon SkyView installed, please do not upgrade
to SkyView 5.1.
*This does NOT affect VP-X customers. *
We are investigating the issue and will have additional details in the
future. Please contact Vertical Power directly (by replying to this
e-mail) if you have any questions.
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| Subject: | Re: RV10-List: Fwd: [MARKETING] VP-200/Dynon SkyView Service |
Bulletin
According to Dynon Support -We only moved a few parameters around in the
new serial stream, so it's unfortunate that it will take them months to
fix this as it's likely just a few constants in their code to make it
work again.
Hopefully =9CWe are investigating the issue and will have
additional details in the future.=9D means they may release a fix
much sooner than the expected Q2 that I was told last Friday. Granted
this should not be VP issue, kudos, to Marc for at least providing a
fix, even if it is a potential long wait.
From: Kelly McMullen
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 12:50 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Fwd: [MARKETING] VP-200/Dynon SkyView Service
Bulletin
Well, at least Vertical Power is listening.
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [MARKETING] VP-200/Dynon
SkyView Service Bulletin
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 14:01:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Vertical Power Support mailto:support@verticalpower.com
To: kellym@aviating.com
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Service Bulletin - February 2013
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Service Bulletin:
VP-200 and Dynon SkyView
Dynon recently released SkyView 5.1 that added
some new data logging features and at the same time affected the
interface to the VP-200.
If you have a VP-200 and Dynon SkyView
installed, please do not upgrade to SkyView 5.1.
This does NOT affect VP-X customers.
We are investigating the issue and will have
additional details in the future. Please contact Vertical Power directly
(by replying to this e-mail) if you have any questions.
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Vertical Power | 317 Commercial St, G-102 | Albuquerque | NM |
87102
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