Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:03 AM - TR: IFR RVs in the US (Michele Delsol)
2. 09:03 AM - IFR RVs in the US (Michele Delsol)
3. 11:07 AM - Low fuel pressure indication (HCRV6@comcast.net)
4. 11:22 AM - Re: IFR RVs in the US (Mike Robertson)
5. 11:25 AM - Re: Low fuel pressure indication (Mike Robertson)
6. 01:05 PM - Re: TR: IFR RVs in the US (RV6 Flyer)
7. 01:35 PM - Re: Low fuel pressure indication (Linn Walters)
8. 03:57 PM - Re: Low fuel pressure indication (Vincent Himsl)
Message 1
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| Subject: | TR: IFR RVs in the US |
Hello to all,
I=92ve been lurking on the sidelines of this list and have contributed
at
times during the build time of my RV8 ' from France. I have finished
the 8
which has been providing me with more joy than I anticipated. What a
great
airplane.
All would be perfect except that the French and most Europeans do not
allow
home builts to fly IFR. A few of the RV owners being military and/or
professional pilots with full IFR qualifications, with planes very well
equipped avionics wise, would like to change this. I have thus taken it
upon
myself within the context of our French RV builder group to explore the
possibility of having the rules changed, at least within the context of
French skies.
Since the US FAA does allow experimental built airplanes to fly IFR in
the
US, my question to the list is : what are the criteria which would allow
an
RV to be flown IFR by a duly qualified IFR pilot ? Questions which come
to
mind are :
=B7 Does the engine have to be certified as opposed to a non
certified
such as Mattituck, Superior, Barret=85 ?
=B7 What about maintenance ' by certified mechanic or by owner
under a
certain conditions ?
=B7 Minimum avionics : ex. two radios, VORs, DME, other ?
=B7 Any steam gages ?
=B7 Does the owner who does his own maintenance have to acquire
specific qualifications ?
Thanks,
Mich=E8le Delsol
RV8 ' F-PDSL
Message 2
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| Subject: | IFR RVs in the US |
Hello to all,
I=92ve been lurking on the sidelines of this list and have contributed
at
times during the build time of my RV8 ' from France. I have finished
the 8
which has been providing me with more joy than I anticipated. What a
great
airplane.
All would be perfect except that the French and most Europeans do not
allow
home builts to fly IFR. A few of the RV owners being military and/or
professional pilots with full IFR qualifications, with planes very well
equipped avionics wise, would like to change this. I have thus taken it
upon
myself within the context of our French RV builder group
(www.vansclubdefrance.fr) to explore the possibility of having the rules
changed, at least within the context of French skies.
Since the US FAA does allow experimental built airplanes to fly IFR in
the
US, my question to the list is : what are the criteria which would allow
an
RV to be flown IFR by a duly qualified IFR pilot ? Questions which come
to
mind are :
=B7 Does the engine have to be certified as opposed to a non
certified
such as Mattituck, Superior, Barret=85 ?
=B7 What about maintenance ' by certified mechanic or by owner
under a
certain conditions ?
=B7 Minimum avionics : ex. two radios, VORs, DME, other ?
=B7 Any steam gages ?
=B7 Does the owner who does his own maintenance have to acquire
specific qualifications ?
Thanks,
Mich=E8le Delsol
RV8 ' F-PDSL
Message 3
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| Subject: | Low fuel pressure indication |
I have a puzzling problem and wondering if anyone can shed some light on it. Under
continuous high power settings, like in climb to altitude after takeoff, my
Grand Rapids EFIS fuel pressure indication drops to zero and even shows a low
negative value after a couple of minutes, but the engine continues to run at
full power. This with a carbureted O-360 and running on the engine driven pump
only. If I switch the aux pump back on the pressure indication comes back to
the normal 2 to 4 psi range. I had this problem a few years ago and installing
a new VDO pressure sender from Grand Rapids cured it, but this time a new sender
did not help. The pressure take off is at the carburetor and the sender is
mounted on the firewall, connected with a -2 hose.
The thing that has me scratching my head is that the engine keeps running fine
at high fuel flow even though the fuel pressure indicates zero or less, so I would
suspect a bum sender again, but the fact that the pressure indication comes
back to normal when I turn the aux pump back on has me baffled.
Harry Crosby
RV-6 N16CX, 1080 hours
Message 4
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| Subject: | IFR RVs in the US |
In the US we clarify the ability to IFR in each aircraft's operating limita
tions. These operating limitations are issued to the aircraft at the time
of certification. We=2C the FAA=2C use a very generic sentence=2C i.e=2C t
he sentence reads "Unless appropriately equipped for night and/or IFR fligh
t in accordance with 14 CFR 91.205=2C this aircraft is restricted to day VF
R."
So it is up to the pilot to make sure the aircraft is equipped with all the
necessry instruments and avionics=2C and make sure that all the needed ins
pections are completed. Those inspections would include the yearly conditi
on inspeciton=2C the 24 month trnasponder/encoder inspection=2C and a curre
nt IFR pitot/static inspection. From an airplane side that is it.
We do not require anything special for the engine=2C and even the avionics
do not have to be approved (but the must pass inspection). And your panel
could be all glass if you like provided all the instruments called out in 9
1.205 are there.
The pilot must have an instrument airplane rating and be current but that i
s all. Nothing special for operation of an amateur-built airplane.
I hope this helps.
Mike Robertson
RV-6=2C RV-8=2C RV-9 builder
FAA Inspector
From: mdelsol@md-dsl.fr
Subject: RV-List: IFR RVs in the US
Hello to all=2C
I=92ve been lurking on the sidelines of this list and have contributed at t
imes during the build time of my RV8 ' from France. I have finished the 8
which has been providing me with more joy than I anticipated. What a great
airplane.
All would be perfect except that the French and most Europeans do not allow
home builts to fly IFR. A few of the RV owners being military and/or profe
ssional pilots with full IFR qualifications=2C with planes very well equipp
ed avionics wise=2C would like to change this. I have thus taken it upon my
self within the context of our French RV builder group (www.vansclubdefranc
e.fr) to explore the possibility of having the rules changed=2C at least wi
thin the context of French skies.
Since the US FAA does allow experimental built airplanes to fly IFR in the
US=2C my question to the list is : what are the criteria which would allow
an RV to be flown IFR by a duly qualified IFR pilot ? Questions which come
to mind are :
=B7 Does the engine have to be certified as opposed to a non certifi
ed such as Mattituck=2C Superior=2C Barret=85 ?
=B7 What about maintenance ' by certified mechanic or by owner und
er a certain conditions ?
=B7 Minimum avionics : ex. two radios=2C VORs=2C DME=2C other ?
=B7 Any steam gages ?
=B7 Does the owner who does his own maintenance have to acquire spec
ific qualifications ?
Thanks=2C
Mich=E8le Delsol
RV8 ' F-PDSL
Message 5
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| Subject: | Low fuel pressure indication |
Harry=2C
Keep in mind that when we measure pressure we are really talking pressure d
ifferential. If the throttle is full open then the fuel pressure different
ial may actually be zero. For carb equipped airplanes I would not get too
carried away with a zero reading at full throttle as long as the engine is
running good and you still see some pressure when you turn on the boost pum
p.
Mike Robertson
From: HCRV6@comcast.net
Subject: RV-List: Low fuel pressure indication
I have a puzzling problem and wondering if anyone can shed some light on it
. Under continuous high power settings=2C like in climb to altitude after
takeoff=2C my Grand Rapids EFIS fuel pressure indication drops to zero and
even shows a low negative value after a couple of minutes=2C but the engin
e continues to run at full power. This with a carbureted O-360 and running
on the engine driven pump only. If I switch the aux pump back on the pres
sure indication comes back to the normal 2 to 4 psi range. I had this prob
lem a few years ago and installing a new VDO pressure sender from Grand Rap
ids cured it=2C but this time a new sender did not help. The pressure take
off is at the carburetor and the sender is mounted on the firewall=2C conn
ected with a -2 hose.
The thing that has me scratching my head is that the engine keeps running f
ine at high fuel flow even though the fuel pressure indicates zero or less
=2C so I would suspect a bum sender again=2C but the fact that the pressure
indication comes back to normal when I turn the aux pump back on has me ba
ffled.
Harry Crosby
RV-6 N16CX=2C 1080 hours
Message 6
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| Subject: | TR: IFR RVs in the US |
All US Amateur Built Experimental aircraft are issued "Special Airworthines
s Certificates" (FAA Form 8130-7) by the FAA Inspector or by a DAR. The "O
perating Limitations" that are a part of 8130-7 come right out of FAA Order
8130.2. (Latest version is 8130.2G Change 1)
At the time of the initial Airworthiness Inspection=2C the aircraft will be
limited to DAY VFR or to DAY VFR unless equipped In Accordance With CFR 14
part 91.205 for night or IFR. 91.205 only applies to Standard Category A
irplanes but the FAA makes that part apply by the Operating Limitations.
Once the Operating Limitations are issued=2C it becomes the builder's respo
nsibility to make sure that the aircraft meets 91.205.
I am a Commercial Pilot that is Instrument rated and current. I have and d
o fly my RV IFR.
Link to FAA Order 8130.2G with Change 1. http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulat
ory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/7a09d53fb0d5325586257885004d9e1b/$F
ILE/8130.2G_CHG1_Incorporated.pdf
The following is the Operating Limitation that is issued that allows IFR in
a homebuilt.
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
After completion of phase I flight testing=2C unless appropriately equipped
=0A
for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with =A7 91.205=2C this ai
rcraft=0A
is to be operated under VFR=2C day only. (7/8 as appropriate)=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Hope this helps. Yes I am a DAR with Function Code 46 that allows me to do
initial airworthiness inspections on amateur built aircraft.
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell=2C
2=2C726+ Flying Hours So. CA=2C USA
From: mdelsol@md-dsl.fr
Subject: RV-List: TR: IFR RVs in the US
=0A
Hello to all=2C I=92ve been lurking on the sidelines of this list and have
contributed at times during the build time of my RV8 ' from France. I hav
e finished the 8 which has been providing me with more joy than I anticipat
ed. What a great airplane. All would be perfect except that the French and
most Europeans do not allow home builts to fly IFR. A few of the RV owners
being military and/or professional pilots with full IFR qualifications=2C w
ith planes very well equipped avionics wise=2C would like to change this. I
have thus taken it upon myself within the context of our French RV builder
group to explore the possibility of having the rules changed=2C at least w
ithin the context of French skies. Since the US FAA does allow experimental
built airplanes to fly IFR in the US=2C my question to the list is : what
are the criteria which would allow an RV to be flown IFR by a duly qualifie
d IFR pilot ? Questions which come to mind are :=B7 Does the engine
have to be certified as opposed to a non certified such as Mattituck=2C Sup
erior=2C Barret=85 ?=B7 What about maintenance ' by certified mech
anic or by owner under a certain conditions ?=B7 Minimum avionics :
ex. two radios=2C VORs=2C DME=2C other ?=B7 Any steam gages ?=B7
Does the owner who does his own maintenance have to acquire specific qu
alifications ? Thanks=2CMich=E8le DelsolRV8 ' F-PDSL =0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
=0A
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Low fuel pressure indication |
BTDT!!!
The sender 'wiper' sits in one place at where ever the fuel pressure
puts it. The normal engine vibration wears a hole in the carbon path
..... and the reading goes to zero. Turning on the electric pump moves
the wiper off it's 'normal' spot and onto a good spot.
Replaced the sender and my problem went away.
My sender had about 2500 hours on it but it's a crapshoot when it will fail.
A prop balance is a good investment.
Linn
On 6/27/2013 2:07 PM, HCRV6@comcast.net wrote:
> I have a puzzling problem and wondering if anyone can shed some light
> on it. Under continuous high power settings, like in climb to
> altitude after takeoff, my Grand Rapids EFIS fuel pressure indication
> drops to zero and even shows a low negative value after a couple of
> minutes, but the engine continues to run at full power. This with a
> carbureted O-360 and running on the engine driven pump only. If I
> switch the aux pump back on the pressure indication comes back to the
> normal 2 to 4 psi range. I had this problem a few years ago and
> installing a new VDO pressure sender from Grand Rapids cured it, but
> this time a new sender did not help. The pressure take off is at the
> carburetor and the sender is mounted on the firewall, connected with a
> -2 hose.
>
> The thing that has me scratching my head is that the engine keeps
> running fine at high fuel flow even though the fuel pressure indicates
> zero or less, so I would suspect a bum sender again, but the fact that
> the pressure indication comes back to normal when I turn the aux pump
> back on has me baffled.
>
> HarryCrosby
> RV-6 N16CX, 1080 hours
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Low fuel pressure indication |
Only way a working gauge pressure transducer would register negative is
if its sensing a vacuum. I am keying in on fact you have takeoff at
carburetor rather than the fuel pump outlet and that your boost pump
readings are, compared to mine, low. I would also suspect you have the
fuel pressure transducer mounted fairly high up on the firewall.
Is it possible to move the takeoff back to the fuel pump out port near
the rear of the engine? Moving the =98T=99 to the fuel pump
output decreases the height differential and also the length of hose.
I am thinking your problem will disappear, and your current transducer
and quite possibly your old transducer, will work correctly reading more
like 4 to 6 PSI with boost pump on.
I may be way off, but moving the Takeoff is something
=98relatively=99 quick and inexpensive to try.
Regards,
VinceH
RV8432 flying
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Linn Walters
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Low fuel pressure indication
BTDT!!!
The sender 'wiper' sits in one place at where ever the fuel pressure
puts it. The normal engine vibration wears a hole in the carbon path
..... and the reading goes to zero. Turning on the electric pump moves
the wiper off it's 'normal' spot and onto a good spot.
Replaced the sender and my problem went away.
My sender had about 2500 hours on it but it's a crapshoot when it will
fail.
A prop balance is a good investment.
Linn
On 6/27/2013 2:07 PM, HCRV6@comcast.net wrote:
I have a puzzling problem and wondering if anyone can shed some light on
it. Under continuous high power settings, like in climb to altitude
after takeoff, my Grand Rapids EFIS fuel pressure indication drops to
zero and even shows a low negative value after a couple of minutes, but
the engine continues to run at full power. This with a carbureted O-360
and running on the engine driven pump only. If I switch the aux pump
back on the pressure indication comes back to the normal 2 to 4 psi
range. I had this problem a few years ago and installing a new VDO
pressure sender from Grand Rapids cured it, but this time a new sender
did not help. The pressure take off is at the carburetor and the sender
is mounted on the firewall, connected with a -2 hose.
The thing that has me scratching my head is that the engine keeps
running fine at high fuel flow even though the fuel pressure indicates
zero or less, so I would suspect a bum sender again, but the fact that
the pressure indication comes back to normal when I turn the aux pump
back on has me baffled.
Harry Crosby
RV-6 N16CX, 1080 hours
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
06/26/13
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