---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/27/13: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:03 AM - TR: IFR RVs in the US (Michele Delsol) 2. 09:03 AM - IFR RVs in the US (Michele Delsol) 3. 11:07 AM - Low fuel pressure indication (HCRV6@comcast.net) 4. 11:22 AM - Re: IFR RVs in the US (Mike Robertson) 5. 11:25 AM - Re: Low fuel pressure indication (Mike Robertson) 6. 01:05 PM - Re: TR: IFR RVs in the US (RV6 Flyer) 7. 01:35 PM - Re: Low fuel pressure indication (Linn Walters) 8. 03:57 PM - Re: Low fuel pressure indication (Vincent Himsl) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:16 AM PST US From: "Michele Delsol" Subject: RV-List: TR: IFR RVs in the US Hello to all, I=92ve been lurking on the sidelines of this list and have contributed at times during the build time of my RV8 ' from France. I have finished the 8 which has been providing me with more joy than I anticipated. What a great airplane. All would be perfect except that the French and most Europeans do not allow home builts to fly IFR. A few of the RV owners being military and/or professional pilots with full IFR qualifications, with planes very well equipped avionics wise, would like to change this. I have thus taken it upon myself within the context of our French RV builder group to explore the possibility of having the rules changed, at least within the context of French skies. Since the US FAA does allow experimental built airplanes to fly IFR in the US, my question to the list is : what are the criteria which would allow an RV to be flown IFR by a duly qualified IFR pilot ? Questions which come to mind are : =B7 Does the engine have to be certified as opposed to a non certified such as Mattituck, Superior, Barret=85 ? =B7 What about maintenance ' by certified mechanic or by owner under a certain conditions ? =B7 Minimum avionics : ex. two radios, VORs, DME, other ? =B7 Any steam gages ? =B7 Does the owner who does his own maintenance have to acquire specific qualifications ? Thanks, Mich=E8le Delsol RV8 ' F-PDSL ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:16 AM PST US From: "Michele Delsol" Subject: RV-List: IFR RVs in the US Hello to all, I=92ve been lurking on the sidelines of this list and have contributed at times during the build time of my RV8 ' from France. I have finished the 8 which has been providing me with more joy than I anticipated. What a great airplane. All would be perfect except that the French and most Europeans do not allow home builts to fly IFR. A few of the RV owners being military and/or professional pilots with full IFR qualifications, with planes very well equipped avionics wise, would like to change this. I have thus taken it upon myself within the context of our French RV builder group (www.vansclubdefrance.fr) to explore the possibility of having the rules changed, at least within the context of French skies. Since the US FAA does allow experimental built airplanes to fly IFR in the US, my question to the list is : what are the criteria which would allow an RV to be flown IFR by a duly qualified IFR pilot ? Questions which come to mind are : =B7 Does the engine have to be certified as opposed to a non certified such as Mattituck, Superior, Barret=85 ? =B7 What about maintenance ' by certified mechanic or by owner under a certain conditions ? =B7 Minimum avionics : ex. two radios, VORs, DME, other ? =B7 Any steam gages ? =B7 Does the owner who does his own maintenance have to acquire specific qualifications ? Thanks, Mich=E8le Delsol RV8 ' F-PDSL ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:07:59 AM PST US From: HCRV6@comcast.net Subject: RV-List: Low fuel pressure indication I have a puzzling problem and wondering if anyone can shed some light on it. Under continuous high power settings, like in climb to altitude after takeoff, my Grand Rapids EFIS fuel pressure indication drops to zero and even shows a low negative value after a couple of minutes, but the engine continues to run at full power. This with a carbureted O-360 and running on the engine driven pump only. If I switch the aux pump back on the pressure indication comes back to the normal 2 to 4 psi range. I had this problem a few years ago and installing a new VDO pressure sender from Grand Rapids cured it, but this time a new sender did not help. The pressure take off is at the carburetor and the sender is mounted on the firewall, connected with a -2 hose. The thing that has me scratching my head is that the engine keeps running fine at high fuel flow even though the fuel pressure indicates zero or less, so I would suspect a bum sender again, but the fact that the pressure indication comes back to normal when I turn the aux pump back on has me baffled. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 1080 hours ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:22:04 AM PST US From: Mike Robertson Subject: RE: RV-List: IFR RVs in the US In the US we clarify the ability to IFR in each aircraft's operating limita tions. These operating limitations are issued to the aircraft at the time of certification. We=2C the FAA=2C use a very generic sentence=2C i.e=2C t he sentence reads "Unless appropriately equipped for night and/or IFR fligh t in accordance with 14 CFR 91.205=2C this aircraft is restricted to day VF R." So it is up to the pilot to make sure the aircraft is equipped with all the necessry instruments and avionics=2C and make sure that all the needed ins pections are completed. Those inspections would include the yearly conditi on inspeciton=2C the 24 month trnasponder/encoder inspection=2C and a curre nt IFR pitot/static inspection. From an airplane side that is it. We do not require anything special for the engine=2C and even the avionics do not have to be approved (but the must pass inspection). And your panel could be all glass if you like provided all the instruments called out in 9 1.205 are there. The pilot must have an instrument airplane rating and be current but that i s all. Nothing special for operation of an amateur-built airplane. I hope this helps. Mike Robertson RV-6=2C RV-8=2C RV-9 builder FAA Inspector From: mdelsol@md-dsl.fr Subject: RV-List: IFR RVs in the US Hello to all=2C I=92ve been lurking on the sidelines of this list and have contributed at t imes during the build time of my RV8 ' from France. I have finished the 8 which has been providing me with more joy than I anticipated. What a great airplane. All would be perfect except that the French and most Europeans do not allow home builts to fly IFR. A few of the RV owners being military and/or profe ssional pilots with full IFR qualifications=2C with planes very well equipp ed avionics wise=2C would like to change this. I have thus taken it upon my self within the context of our French RV builder group (www.vansclubdefranc e.fr) to explore the possibility of having the rules changed=2C at least wi thin the context of French skies. Since the US FAA does allow experimental built airplanes to fly IFR in the US=2C my question to the list is : what are the criteria which would allow an RV to be flown IFR by a duly qualified IFR pilot ? Questions which come to mind are : =B7 Does the engine have to be certified as opposed to a non certifi ed such as Mattituck=2C Superior=2C Barret=85 ? =B7 What about maintenance ' by certified mechanic or by owner und er a certain conditions ? =B7 Minimum avionics : ex. two radios=2C VORs=2C DME=2C other ? =B7 Any steam gages ? =B7 Does the owner who does his own maintenance have to acquire spec ific qualifications ? Thanks=2C Mich=E8le Delsol RV8 ' F-PDSL ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:25:31 AM PST US From: Mike Robertson Subject: RE: RV-List: Low fuel pressure indication Harry=2C Keep in mind that when we measure pressure we are really talking pressure d ifferential. If the throttle is full open then the fuel pressure different ial may actually be zero. For carb equipped airplanes I would not get too carried away with a zero reading at full throttle as long as the engine is running good and you still see some pressure when you turn on the boost pum p. Mike Robertson From: HCRV6@comcast.net Subject: RV-List: Low fuel pressure indication I have a puzzling problem and wondering if anyone can shed some light on it . Under continuous high power settings=2C like in climb to altitude after takeoff=2C my Grand Rapids EFIS fuel pressure indication drops to zero and even shows a low negative value after a couple of minutes=2C but the engin e continues to run at full power. This with a carbureted O-360 and running on the engine driven pump only. If I switch the aux pump back on the pres sure indication comes back to the normal 2 to 4 psi range. I had this prob lem a few years ago and installing a new VDO pressure sender from Grand Rap ids cured it=2C but this time a new sender did not help. The pressure take off is at the carburetor and the sender is mounted on the firewall=2C conn ected with a -2 hose. The thing that has me scratching my head is that the engine keeps running f ine at high fuel flow even though the fuel pressure indicates zero or less =2C so I would suspect a bum sender again=2C but the fact that the pressure indication comes back to normal when I turn the aux pump back on has me ba ffled. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX=2C 1080 hours ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:05:14 PM PST US From: RV6 Flyer Subject: RE: RV-List: TR: IFR RVs in the US All US Amateur Built Experimental aircraft are issued "Special Airworthines s Certificates" (FAA Form 8130-7) by the FAA Inspector or by a DAR. The "O perating Limitations" that are a part of 8130-7 come right out of FAA Order 8130.2. (Latest version is 8130.2G Change 1) At the time of the initial Airworthiness Inspection=2C the aircraft will be limited to DAY VFR or to DAY VFR unless equipped In Accordance With CFR 14 part 91.205 for night or IFR. 91.205 only applies to Standard Category A irplanes but the FAA makes that part apply by the Operating Limitations. Once the Operating Limitations are issued=2C it becomes the builder's respo nsibility to make sure that the aircraft meets 91.205. I am a Commercial Pilot that is Instrument rated and current. I have and d o fly my RV IFR. Link to FAA Order 8130.2G with Change 1. http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulat ory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/7a09d53fb0d5325586257885004d9e1b/$F ILE/8130.2G_CHG1_Incorporated.pdf The following is the Operating Limitation that is issued that allows IFR in a homebuilt. =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A After completion of phase I flight testing=2C unless appropriately equipped =0A for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with =A7 91.205=2C this ai rcraft=0A is to be operated under VFR=2C day only. (7/8 as appropriate)=0A =0A =0A =0A Hope this helps. Yes I am a DAR with Function Code 46 that allows me to do initial airworthiness inspections on amateur built aircraft. Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell=2C 2=2C726+ Flying Hours So. CA=2C USA From: mdelsol@md-dsl.fr Subject: RV-List: TR: IFR RVs in the US =0A Hello to all=2C I=92ve been lurking on the sidelines of this list and have contributed at times during the build time of my RV8 ' from France. I hav e finished the 8 which has been providing me with more joy than I anticipat ed. What a great airplane. All would be perfect except that the French and most Europeans do not allow home builts to fly IFR. A few of the RV owners being military and/or professional pilots with full IFR qualifications=2C w ith planes very well equipped avionics wise=2C would like to change this. I have thus taken it upon myself within the context of our French RV builder group to explore the possibility of having the rules changed=2C at least w ithin the context of French skies. Since the US FAA does allow experimental built airplanes to fly IFR in the US=2C my question to the list is : what are the criteria which would allow an RV to be flown IFR by a duly qualifie d IFR pilot ? Questions which come to mind are :=B7 Does the engine have to be certified as opposed to a non certified such as Mattituck=2C Sup erior=2C Barret=85 ?=B7 What about maintenance ' by certified mech anic or by owner under a certain conditions ?=B7 Minimum avionics : ex. two radios=2C VORs=2C DME=2C other ?=B7 Any steam gages ?=B7 Does the owner who does his own maintenance have to acquire specific qu alifications ? Thanks=2CMich=E8le DelsolRV8 ' F-PDSL =0A =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:35:16 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Low fuel pressure indication BTDT!!! The sender 'wiper' sits in one place at where ever the fuel pressure puts it. The normal engine vibration wears a hole in the carbon path ..... and the reading goes to zero. Turning on the electric pump moves the wiper off it's 'normal' spot and onto a good spot. Replaced the sender and my problem went away. My sender had about 2500 hours on it but it's a crapshoot when it will fail. A prop balance is a good investment. Linn On 6/27/2013 2:07 PM, HCRV6@comcast.net wrote: > I have a puzzling problem and wondering if anyone can shed some light > on it. Under continuous high power settings, like in climb to > altitude after takeoff, my Grand Rapids EFIS fuel pressure indication > drops to zero and even shows a low negative value after a couple of > minutes, but the engine continues to run at full power. This with a > carbureted O-360 and running on the engine driven pump only. If I > switch the aux pump back on the pressure indication comes back to the > normal 2 to 4 psi range. I had this problem a few years ago and > installing a new VDO pressure sender from Grand Rapids cured it, but > this time a new sender did not help. The pressure take off is at the > carburetor and the sender is mounted on the firewall, connected with a > -2 hose. > > The thing that has me scratching my head is that the engine keeps > running fine at high fuel flow even though the fuel pressure indicates > zero or less, so I would suspect a bum sender again, but the fact that > the pressure indication comes back to normal when I turn the aux pump > back on has me baffled. > > HarryCrosby > RV-6 N16CX, 1080 hours > > * > > > * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:57:18 PM PST US From: Vincent Himsl Subject: RE: RV-List: Low fuel pressure indication Only way a working gauge pressure transducer would register negative is if its sensing a vacuum. I am keying in on fact you have takeoff at carburetor rather than the fuel pump outlet and that your boost pump readings are, compared to mine, low. I would also suspect you have the fuel pressure transducer mounted fairly high up on the firewall. Is it possible to move the takeoff back to the fuel pump out port near the rear of the engine? Moving the =98T=99 to the fuel pump output decreases the height differential and also the length of hose. I am thinking your problem will disappear, and your current transducer and quite possibly your old transducer, will work correctly reading more like 4 to 6 PSI with boost pump on. I may be way off, but moving the Takeoff is something =98relatively=99 quick and inexpensive to try. Regards, VinceH RV8432 flying From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Linn Walters Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 1:34 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Low fuel pressure indication BTDT!!! The sender 'wiper' sits in one place at where ever the fuel pressure puts it. The normal engine vibration wears a hole in the carbon path ..... and the reading goes to zero. Turning on the electric pump moves the wiper off it's 'normal' spot and onto a good spot. Replaced the sender and my problem went away. My sender had about 2500 hours on it but it's a crapshoot when it will fail. A prop balance is a good investment. Linn On 6/27/2013 2:07 PM, HCRV6@comcast.net wrote: I have a puzzling problem and wondering if anyone can shed some light on it. Under continuous high power settings, like in climb to altitude after takeoff, my Grand Rapids EFIS fuel pressure indication drops to zero and even shows a low negative value after a couple of minutes, but the engine continues to run at full power. This with a carbureted O-360 and running on the engine driven pump only. If I switch the aux pump back on the pressure indication comes back to the normal 2 to 4 psi range. I had this problem a few years ago and installing a new VDO pressure sender from Grand Rapids cured it, but this time a new sender did not help. The pressure take off is at the carburetor and the sender is mounted on the firewall, connected with a -2 hose. The thing that has me scratching my head is that the engine keeps running fine at high fuel flow even though the fuel pressure indicates zero or less, so I would suspect a bum sender again, but the fact that the pressure indication comes back to normal when I turn the aux pump back on has me baffled. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 1080 hours No virus found in this message. 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