RV-List Digest Archive

Wed 07/03/13


Total Messages Posted: 9



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:25 AM - Re: tailwheel powder coating (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
     2. 05:44 AM - Re: RV10-List: G3x Autopilot & Accessories (Carl Froehlich)
     3. 06:58 AM - powder coating thoughts (Vince Frazier)
     4. 07:54 AM - Re: powder coating thoughts (Linn Walters)
     5. 09:00 AM - Re: tailwheel powder coating (vanremog@aol.com)
     6. 11:50 AM - Re: tailwheel powder coating (HCRV6@comcast.net)
     7. 12:05 PM - RV-List (Alan Coker)
     8. 12:20 PM - Re: IFR RVs in the US (David Leonard)
     9. 12:23 PM - Re: IFR RVs in the US (David Leonard)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:25:57 AM PST US
    From: Hopperdhh@aol.com
    Subject: Re: tailwheel powder coating
    When I bent the canopy frame to make it fit I got cracks in the power coating and scraped some off and found rust. I thought it was probably rusty when they painted it. That could be the case with other parts as well. Dan Hopper RV-7A N766DH flying since 2004 In a message dated 7/2/2013 11:51:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kellym@aviating.com writes: What about all the steel parts that Vans supplies already powder coated? Like main gear mounts, engine mount, various bellcranks, etc.???


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:44:47 AM PST US
    From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@verizon.net>
    Subject: RE: RV10-List: G3x Autopilot & Accessories
    Considering they are matching Dynon on autopilot pricing, I'm thrilled that Garmin is finally feeling some competition pressure. Considering the grossly overpriced GTN-650 I put in my RV-10 (and horrible Garmin after the sale service), perhaps we will soon have more value based options for the rest of our avionics. I predict Dynon will again lead the way. Carl RV-10 (105 hours) RV-8A (sold - but it went to a good home) From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 11:56 PM Subject: RV10-List: G3x Autopilot & Accessories Not sure everyone has seen the new Garmin G3x AP & servos but it looks like they are kicking it into high gear with full G3x accessories. The AP is only $750! Servos are also $750 ea. Garmin is also offering a AOA Pitot & Heated AOA Pitot for $199 & $299 with a regulated AOA Pitot coming. They also have a new back up ADAHRS. Products http://www.garmin.com/us/products/intheair/sport-aviation/prices Here are some videos http://www.garmin.com/us/products/intheair/sport-aviation/media/ https://static.garmincdn.com/en/m/g/custom-pages/in-the-air/sport-aviation/s f/gmc305.jpg https://static.garmincdn.com/en/m/g/custom-pages/in-the-air/sport-aviation/s f/gap26.jpg https://static.garmincdn.com/en/m/g/custom-pages/in-the-air/sport-aviation/s f/gsa28.jpg https://static.garmincdn.com/en/m/g/custom-pages/in-the-air/sport-aviation/s f/gsu25.jpg Robin


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:58:46 AM PST US
    Subject: powder coating thoughts
    From: Vince Frazier <vincefrazier@gmail.com>
    SNIP > Echoing some of what Vince said I do not like Powder Coast on high stres > s steel airplane parts. The Powder coat tends to hide cracks that paint wi > ll not. Do you want a crack to develop in one of your steel parts and be h > idden from view? > > Gary A. Sobek > "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell=2C > 2=2C720+ Flying Hours So. CA=2C USA > > > Time: 10:52:03 AM PST US > From: HCRV6@comcast.net > Subject: Re: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating > > Back when I was building my RV-6 slider, I discovered that my brand new > powder > coated canopy bar was rusted in many places under the powder coating. The > only > way I discovered that was that I accidentally chipped the powder coating > in one > place and noticed the rust underneath. It took me several weeks of grinding > and chipping to remove all the powder coat so that I could paint the bar. > After > that I would be very reluctant to use powder coating on critical steel > parts. > > > Harry Crosby > RV-6 N16CX, 1082 hours > > ----- Original Message ----- > > Time: 11:07:02 AM PST US > Subject: Re: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating > From: mr.gsun@gmail.com > > What about the engine mount? > > Greg > > > Time: 03:29:55 PM PST US > From: HCRV6@comcast.net > Subject: Re: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating > > After the canopy frame experience, I ordered the engine mount bare and > painted > it myself. > > > Harry Crosby > > Time: 07:16:01 PM PST US > From: "LARRY C. BOWLES" <SCHYBOLT@austin.rr.com> > Subject: Re: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating > > WHAT ABOUT THE LANDING GEAR??????????? > > > Time: 08:50:58 PM PST US > From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> > Subject: Re: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating > > > What about all the steel parts that Vans supplies already powder coated? > Like main gear mounts, engine mount, various bellcranks, etc.??? > > SNIP My comments are not meant to bash any kit company, but I think they are doing the kitbuilders a HUGE disservice by offering powder coated parts. Builders would be much better off to pay someone to paint the parts than to pay for powder coating! There is a huge misconception that powder coating will protect the parts. Once it cracks (and it will), moisture has a highway to the steel and WILL create LOTS of rust because it's hidden. Of course, if the guy doing the powder coating doesn't properly blast and clean the steel before it's powder coated, then you're already starting off badly! Since there is no way to check the part preparation without damaging the powder coating, then what do you think the average powder coating shop will do? In my opinion, powder coating is for beauty, paint is for protection. I wouldn't put powder coating on an engine mount, no way, no how. I've been around RVs since 1987 and have yet to see an RV4,6,7 or other taildragger engine mount that doesn't develop cracks after XXX hours of use. Nosedragger RVs might be OK. I can't say as we don't have as many of those around my area. Please don't make rash decisions based solely on my comments, but in my opinion, I'd remove any powder coating from my engine mount and any other flight critical parts. It's tough to beat a good, light grey or white, epoxy finish on those parts. It makes cracks and rust show up easily. Sorry if this creates consternation for anyone, but this is a clear case for "do it right, or do it over." FWIW, we get asked all the time if we offer our tailwheel parts already powder coated. The answer has been and will remain "no." YMMV. Thanks, Vince www.flyboyaccessories.com


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:54:56 AM PST US
    From: Linn Walters <flying-nut@cfl.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: powder coating thoughts
    Been watching this thread ...... Rust under the powder coat was probably there when it was coated. The heat necessary to melt the powder coat doesn't change the steel at all, and powder coat really seals out the moisture. You might see fatigue cracks earlier with powder coat than paint since the powder coat is brittle and paint still has a little flex to it. My nose gear had some rust under the powder coat but I'll Ospho that and paint over it. Linn ...... fitting the cowl \On 7/3/2013 9:57 AM, Vince Frazier wrote: > > SNIP > > Echoing some of what Vince said I do not like Powder Coast on high > stres > s steel airplane parts. The Powder coat tends to hide cracks that > paint wi > ll not. Do you want a crack to develop in one of your steel parts > and be h > idden from view? > > Gary A. Sobek > "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell=2C > 2=2C720+ Flying Hours So. CA=2C USA > > > Time: 10:52:03 AM PST US > From: HCRV6@comcast.net <mailto:HCRV6@comcast.net> > Subject: Re: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating > > Back when I was building my RV-6 slider, I discovered that my > brand new powder > coated canopy bar was rusted in many places under the powder > coating. The only > way I discovered that was that I accidentally chipped the powder > coating in one > place and noticed the rust underneath. It took me several weeks of > grinding > and chipping to remove all the powder coat so that I could paint > the bar. After > that I would be very reluctant to use powder coating on critical > steel parts. > > > Harry Crosby > RV-6 N16CX, 1082 hours > > ----- Original Message ----- > > Time: 11:07:02 AM PST US > Subject: Re: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating > From: mr.gsun@gmail.com <mailto:mr.gsun@gmail.com> > > What about the engine mount? > > Greg > > > Time: 03:29:55 PM PST US > From: HCRV6@comcast.net <mailto:HCRV6@comcast.net> > Subject: Re: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating > > After the canopy frame experience, I ordered the engine mount bare > and painted > it myself. > > > Harry Crosby > > Time: 07:16:01 PM PST US > From: "LARRY C. BOWLES" <SCHYBOLT@austin.rr.com > <mailto:SCHYBOLT@austin.rr.com>> > Subject: Re: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating > > WHAT ABOUT THE LANDING GEAR??????????? > > > Time: 08:50:58 PM PST US > From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com > <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>> > Subject: Re: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating > > > What about all the steel parts that Vans supplies already powder > coated? > Like main gear mounts, engine mount, various bellcranks, etc.??? > > SNIP > > My comments are not meant to bash any kit company, but I think they > are doing the kitbuilders a HUGE disservice by offering powder coated > parts. Builders would be much better off to pay someone to paint the > parts than to pay for powder coating! > > There is a huge misconception that powder coating will protect the > parts. Once it cracks (and it will), moisture has a highway to the > steel and WILL create LOTS of rust because it's hidden. Of course, > if the guy doing the powder coating doesn't properly blast and clean > the steel before it's powder coated, then you're already starting off > badly! Since there is no way to check the part preparation without > damaging the powder coating, then what do you think the average powder > coating shop will do? > > In my opinion, powder coating is for beauty, paint is for protection. > > I wouldn't put powder coating on an engine mount, no way, no how. I've > been around RVs since 1987 and have yet to see an RV4,6,7 or other > taildragger engine mount that doesn't develop cracks after XXX hours > of use. Nosedragger RVs might be OK. I can't say as we don't have as > many of those around my area. > > Please don't make rash decisions based solely on my comments, but in > my opinion, I'd remove any powder coating from my engine mount and any > other flight critical parts. It's tough to beat a good, light grey or > white, epoxy finish on those parts. It makes cracks and rust show up > easily. > > Sorry if this creates consternation for anyone, but this is a clear > case for "do it right, or do it over." > > FWIW, we get asked all the time if we offer our tailwheel parts > already powder coated. The answer has been and will remain "no." > > YMMV. > > Thanks, > > Vince > www.flyboyaccessories.com <http://www.flyboyaccessories.com> > > * > > > * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> >


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:00:57 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: tailwheel powder coating
    From: vanremog@aol.com
    I agree with Harry. Powder Coating is a decorative coating only, not a pro per aircraft quality finish with corrosion protective capabilities. Van's s hould never have used it in these applications on steel in my opinion. -GV -----Original Message----- From: HCRV6 <HCRV6@comcast.net> Sent: Tue, Jul 2, 2013 3:30 pm Subject: Re: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating After the canopy frame experience, I ordered the engine mount bare and pain ted it myself. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 1082 hours From: "mr gsun" <mr.gsun@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 11:06:44 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating What about the engine mount? Greg On Jul 2, 2013 10:55 AM, <HCRV6@comcast.net> wrote: Back when I was building my RV-6 slider, I discovered that my brand new pow der coated canopy bar was rusted in many places under the powder coating. The only way I discovered that was that I accidentally chipped the powder c oating in one place and noticed the rust underneath. It took me several we eks of grinding and chipping to remove all the powder coat so that I could paint the bar. After that I would be very reluctant to use powder coating on critical steel parts. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 1082 hours From: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 9:00:25 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating Echoing some of what Vince said, I do not like Powder Coast on high stress steel airplane parts. The Powder coat tends to hide cracks that paint will not. Do you want a crack to develop in one of your steel parts and be hid den from view? Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 2,720+ Flying Hours So. CA, USA Subject: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating From: vincefrazier@gmail.com SNIPTime: 05:11:24 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com> Subject: RV-List: Tailwheel Bearing - Separating Bronze Bearing... Dear Listers, Well, I disassembled the tailwheel on the RV-6 and RV-8 this weekend and to ok the wad of parts including the steel spring, bearing knuckles, forks and little hub caps to the local powdercoaters. But they won't accept the bearing knuckle because it has a bronze or brass sleeve! They claim it will leak oil and make a mess in the oven. They expect me to somehow get that sleeve out of the steel part! That seems crazy? Is th at even possible? Surely it won't just come out with a gentle knocking, will it? Help... Thanks! Matt Dralle SNIP Matt, Don't take it out unless you are prepared to install a brand new one, which requires minor machining around the cam groove. Removal will undoubtedly l oosen it to the point that it is sloppy. FWIW, we use engineered plastic bushings in our mounting sockets... but tho se can't be baked either! They are easier to install/machine, more durable , and don't require the locking screw to retain them. (Don't mistake the l ocking screw for a grease zerk... it's useless to grease the spindle with i t. You need to disassemble the parts to properly grease them.) I suggest that you bead blast the parts and paint them. Sorry. FWIW, in my experience, powder coating is not appropriate for aviation stee l parts. ( I can feel the flames already.) For example, I have an Avid Flye r engine mount in my shop right now that is about 20 years old and the powd er coating is cracked and flaking in several spots. There is heavy rust be neath.... which is invisible until it flakes. The plane has been hangared all of it's life and has only 250 hours on it. To me, that powder coating is an accident waiting to happen. It's also rather difficult to strip off. Why anyone would use it is beyond my grasp. Sure, it looks nice... but i s it worth your life if it hides cracks and rust? YMMV, Vince www.flyboyaccessories.com get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:50:30 AM PST US
    From: HCRV6@comcast.net
    Subject: Re: tailwheel powder coating
    My taildragger gear was unfinished as received, painted it myself. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 1082 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: "LARRY C. BOWLES" <SCHYBOLT@austin.rr.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:15:35 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating WHAT ABOUT THE LANDING GEAR??????????? From: mr.gsun@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 1:06 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating What about the engine mount? Greg On Jul 2, 2013 10:55 AM, < HCRV6@comcast.net > wrote: Back when I was building my RV-6 slider, I discovered that my brand new powder coated canopy bar was rusted in many places under the powder coating. The only way I discovered that was that I accidentally chipped the powder coating in one place and noticed the rust underneath. It took me several weeks of grinding and chipping to remove all the powder coat so that I could paint the bar. After that I would be very reluctant to use powder coating on critical steel parts. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 1082 hours From: "RV6 Flyer" < rv6_flyer@hotmail.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 9:00:25 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating Echoing some of what Vince said, I do not like Powder Coast on high stress steel airplane parts. The Powder coat tends to hide cracks that paint will not. Do you want a crack to develop in one of your steel parts and be hidden from view? Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 2,720+ Flying Hours So. CA, USA Subject: RV-List: tailwheel powder coating From: vincefrazier@gmail.com SNIPTime: 05:11:24 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle < dralle@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Tailwheel Bearing - Separating Bronze Bearing... Dear Listers, Well, I disassembled the tailwheel on the RV-6 and RV-8 this weekend and took the wad of parts including the steel spring, bearing knuckles, forks and little hub caps to the local powdercoaters. But they won't accept the bearing knuckle because it has a bronze or brass sleeve! They claim it will leak oil and make a mess in the oven. They expect me to somehow get that sleeve out of the steel part! That seems crazy? Is that even possible? Surely it won't just come out with a gentle knocking, will it? Help... Thanks! Matt Dralle SNIP Matt, Don't take it out unless you are prepared to install a brand new one, which requires minor machining around the cam groove. Removal will undoubtedly loosen it to the point that it is sloppy. FWIW, we use engineered plastic bushings in our mounting sockets... but those can't be baked either! They are easier to install/machine, more durable, and don't require the locking screw to retain them. (Don't mistake the locking screw for a grease zerk... it's useless to grease the spindle with it. You need to disassemble the parts to properly grease them.) I suggest that you bead blast the parts and paint them. Sorry. FWIW, in my experience, powder coating is not appropriate for aviation steel parts. ( I can feel the flames already.) For example, I have an Avid Flyer engine mount in my shop right now that is about 20 years old and the powder coating is cracked and flaking in several spots. There is heavy rust beneath.... which is invisible until it flakes. The plane has been hangared all of it's life and has only 250 hours on it. To me, that powder coating is an accident waiting to happen. It's also rather difficult to strip off. Why anyone would use it is beyond my grasp. Sure, it looks nice... but is it worth your life if it hides cracks and rust? YMMV, Vince www.flyboyaccessories.com get="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com


    Message 7


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    Time: 12:05:33 PM PST US
    From: Alan Coker <Alan.Coker@canal-ins.com>
    Subject: RV-List
    Q291bGQgdGhlIGFkbWluIG9mIHRoaXMgbGlzdCBzZW5kIG1lIFBNIG9uIGhvdyB0byBnZXQgaW50 byBteSBhY2NvdW50cyBpZiBJIGNhbuKAmXQgcmVtZW1iZXIgbXkgbG9naW4gbmFtZT8NCg0KDQoN ClRoYW5rcw0K


    Message 8


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    Time: 12:20:40 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: IFR RVs in the US
    From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
    Michele, To paraphrase the excellent responses you have already received I offer some clarification because you may not be familiar with the rest of the rules for our experimentals: Our instrument and avionics requirements are the same as those for certified aircraft except that the instruments themselves do not necessarily have to be certified, just meet the TSO performance requirements. In practice that usually means that the Transponder and any GPS or VOR navigation systems are TSO certified and the other instruments are quality panel-mount items. Significantly, that means that in order to fly en-route with GPS guidance, the GPS needs to be IFR certified and to fly GPS approaches the unit must be WAAS approach certified. The bi-annual static system check and transponder test have to be done by a certified shop, but otherwise engine and air frame work can be done by either a certified shop or by the builder who has the repairman certificate, but not necessarily by just the current owner. The annual condition inspection much be current. The engine/prop need not be certified. In fact, I fly IFR with my Wankel engine out of a Mazda RX-7. No IFR during the initial test phase or anytime the aircraft is temporarily returned to 'Test Phase' because of a major modification. Requirements for the pilot are the same as if you were flying a certified aircraft, including medical. Just like with VFR flight in an experimental, we cannot carry passengers or cargo for hire even if the pilot has a commercial rating. Other forms of commercial compensation seem to have relaxed a little (more accurately, they have been more clearly defined in order to improve aviation safety). For example you can be compensated to fly in an airshow, with special permission you can provide type-specific transition training for compensation. You can be paid for pictures taken from your aircraft, but not be paid as a hired photographer or sky writer. You can fly to a business event and deduct the costs from your income, even carry passengers IFR incidental to that trip who share some of the direct costs but the pilot has to pay an equal share. We may not rent the aircraft, but we can lend it to someone if the owner is not paid. We cannot do banner tow or drop skydivers even if it is unpaid. All in all I feel it is a very fair and safe system. While experimentals here have not yet shown themselves to be as safe as certified aircraft, I would venture to bet that accidents under IFR are no higher than with certified aircraft. If you can find that statistic someplace I think it could greatly help your cause. Good luck! I am sure that I speak for my US experimental aviation brothers and sisters when I say that we would love to see you succeed. In fact, if you contact the EAA they may be able to offer some advise. Our EAA has an excellent rapport with the FAA. Do you have a similar organization in France? -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Michele Delsol <mdelsol@md-dsl.fr> wrote: > I knew I=92d get knowledgeable responses from the list ' you guys are g reat. > Such good stuff, thanks. Gives me the ammo to approach the French > authorities ' they really treat us like children ' no trust. They wan t us > to have just about everything certified : engine and everything that goes > on one, all avionics, gages, why not switches, breakers, wiring=85 with t he > appropriate form One=92s on each item. Maintenance in a certified shop an d > the paper work to go along... Result ' there are no Night or IFR home > builts in France ' there is one exception which proves the rule. **** > > ** ** > > Thanks ' i=92ll work with the material/info you sent and would get back off > line if I need clarifications.**** > > Mich=E8le**** > > ** ** > > *De :* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *De la part de* Michele Delsol > *Envoy=E9 :* lundi 24 juin 2013 22:04 > *=C0 :* rv-list@matronics.com > *Objet :* RV-List: IFR RVs in the US**** > > ** ** > > Hello to all,**** > > ** ** > > I=92ve been lurking on the sidelines of this list and have contributed at > times during the build time of my RV8 ' from France. I have finished th e 8 > which has been providing me with more joy than I anticipated. What a grea t > airplane.**** > > ** ** > > All would be perfect except that the French and most Europeans do not > allow home builts to fly IFR. A few of the RV owners being military and/o r > professional pilots with full IFR qualifications, with planes very well > equipped avionics wise, would like to change this. I have thus taken it > upon myself within the context of our French RV builder group ( > www.vansclubdefrance.fr) to explore the possibility of having the rules > changed, at least within the context of French skies.**** > > ** ** > > Since the US FAA does allow experimental built airplanes to fly IFR in th e > US, my question to the list is : what are the criteria which would allow an > RV to be flown IFR by a duly qualified IFR pilot ? Questions which come t o > mind are :**** > > **=B7 **Does the engine have to be certified as opposed to a non > certified such as Mattituck, Superior, Barret=85 ?**** > > **=B7 **What about maintenance ' by certified mechanic or by own er > under a certain conditions ?**** > > **=B7 **Minimum avionics : ex. two radios, VORs, DME, other ?**** > > **=B7 **Any steam gages ?**** > > **=B7 **Does the owner who does his own maintenance have to acquir e > specific qualifications ? **** > > ** ** > > Thanks,**** > > Mich=E8le Delsol**** > > RV8 ' F-PDSL**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net


    Message 9


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    Time: 12:23:04 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: IFR RVs in the US
    From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
    Oh, I forgot to add this Excellent link to the EAA's comments on equiping an experimental for IFR flight. http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/faq/Equipping%20a%20Homebuilt%20fo r%20IFR%20operations.html Rodoc On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 12:19 PM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote: > Michele, > > To paraphrase the excellent responses you have already received I offer > some clarification because you may not be familiar with the rest of the > rules for our experimentals: > > Our instrument and avionics requirements are the same as those for > certified aircraft except that the instruments themselves do not > necessarily have to be certified, just meet the TSO performance > requirements. In practice that usually means that the Transponder and any > GPS or VOR navigation systems are TSO certified and the other instruments > are quality panel-mount items. Significantly, that means that in order t o > fly en-route with GPS guidance, the GPS needs to be IFR certified and to > fly GPS approaches the unit must be WAAS approach certified. > > The bi-annual static system check and transponder test have to be done by > a certified shop, but otherwise engine and air frame work can be done by > either a certified shop or by the builder who has the repairman > certificate, but not necessarily by just the current owner. The annual > condition inspection much be current. > > The engine/prop need not be certified. In fact, I fly IFR with my Wankel > engine out of a Mazda RX-7. > > No IFR during the initial test phase or anytime the aircraft is > temporarily returned to 'Test Phase' because of a major modification. > > Requirements for the pilot are the same as if you were flying a certified > aircraft, including medical. > > Just like with VFR flight in an experimental, we cannot carry passengers > or cargo for hire even if the pilot has a commercial rating. Other forms > of commercial compensation seem to have relaxed a little (more accurately , > they have been more clearly defined in order to improve aviation safety). > For example you can be compensated to fly in an airshow, with special > permission you can provide type-specific transition training for > compensation. You can be paid for pictures taken from your aircraft, but > not be paid as a hired photographer or sky writer. You can fly to a > business event and deduct the costs from your income, even carry passenge rs > IFR incidental to that trip who share some of the direct costs but the > pilot has to pay an equal share. We may not rent the aircraft, but we ca n > lend it to someone if the owner is not paid. We cannot do banner tow or > drop skydivers even if it is unpaid. > > All in all I feel it is a very fair and safe system. While experimentals > here have not yet shown themselves to be as safe as certified aircraft, I > would venture to bet that accidents under IFR are no higher than with > certified aircraft. If you can find that statistic someplace I think it > could greatly help your cause. > > Good luck! I am sure that I speak for my US experimental aviation brother s > and sisters when I say that we would love to see you succeed. In fact, i f > you contact the EAA they may be able to offer some advise. Our EAA has an > excellent rapport with the FAA. Do you have a similar organization in > France? > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net > > > On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Michele Delsol <mdelsol@md-dsl.fr>wrote : > >> I knew I=92d get knowledgeable responses from the list ' you guys are >> great. Such good stuff, thanks. Gives me the ammo to approach the French >> authorities ' they really treat us like children ' no trust. They wa nt us >> to have just about everything certified : engine and everything that goe s >> on one, all avionics, gages, why not switches, breakers, wiring=85 with the >> appropriate form One=92s on each item. Maintenance in a certified shop a nd >> the paper work to go along... Result ' there are no Night or IFR home >> builts in France ' there is one exception which proves the rule. **** >> >> ** ** >> >> Thanks ' i=92ll work with the material/info you sent and would get bac k off >> line if I need clarifications.**** >> >> Mich=E8le**** >> >> ** ** >> >> *De :* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: >> owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *De la part de* Michele Delsol >> *Envoy=E9 :* lundi 24 juin 2013 22:04 >> *=C0 :* rv-list@matronics.com >> *Objet :* RV-List: IFR RVs in the US**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Hello to all,**** >> >> ** ** >> >> I=92ve been lurking on the sidelines of this list and have contributed a t >> times during the build time of my RV8 ' from France. I have finished t he 8 >> which has been providing me with more joy than I anticipated. What a gre at >> airplane.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> All would be perfect except that the French and most Europeans do not >> allow home builts to fly IFR. A few of the RV owners being military and/ or >> professional pilots with full IFR qualifications, with planes very well >> equipped avionics wise, would like to change this. I have thus taken it >> upon myself within the context of our French RV builder group ( >> www.vansclubdefrance.fr) to explore the possibility of having the rules >> changed, at least within the context of French skies.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Since the US FAA does allow experimental built airplanes to fly IFR in >> the US, my question to the list is : what are the criteria which would >> allow an RV to be flown IFR by a duly qualified IFR pilot ? Questions wh ich >> come to mind are :**** >> >> **=B7 **Does the engine have to be certified as opposed to a non >> certified such as Mattituck, Superior, Barret=85 ?**** >> >> **=B7 **What about maintenance ' by certified mechanic or by ow ner >> under a certain conditions ?**** >> >> **=B7 **Minimum avionics : ex. two radios, VORs, DME, other ?**** >> >> **=B7 **Any steam gages ?**** >> >> **=B7 **Does the owner who does his own maintenance have to acqui re >> specific qualifications ? **** >> >> ** ** >> >> Thanks,**** >> >> Mich=E8le Delsol**** >> >> RV8 ' F-PDSL**** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> * * >> >> * * >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List* >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> *http://forums.matronics.com* >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* >> >> ** >> >> * * >> >> * >> =========== =========== =========== =========== >> * >> >> > > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net > -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net




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