Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:54 AM - Re: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... (Charles Kuss)
2. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... (Dave Saylor)
3. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... (vanremog@aol.com)
4. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...thread drift to brake fluid (Charlie England)
5. 10:47 AM - Re: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...thread drift to brake fluid (Larry Bowen)
6. 11:02 AM - Re: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... (Bill Schlatterer)
7. 11:08 AM - Re: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... (Charlie England)
8. 11:38 AM - Re: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... (vanremog@aol.com)
9. 11:53 AM - Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... (Valovich, Paul)
10. 07:47 PM - EAA 21 Club First Saturday Fly-Ins at KEHR, Henderson, KY (Steve Eberhart)
11. 11:03 PM - Official RV-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
12. 11:07 PM - Official RV-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
13. 11:45 PM - Re: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... (John Ciolino)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... |
Tracy is correct about automotive brake fluids destroying the stock brake O-rings.
Use of DOT 3 or 4 will require replacement of all the O-rings in your master
cylinders, parking brake and calipers with items made from EPDM. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPDM_rubber
This material has the added benefit of having a higher temperature rating, when
compared to the stock Nitrile [aka Buna N] O-rings. You would also have to change
out the flex hoses coming off of the master cylinders from the stock Nitrile
lined units to Teflon lined stainless steel items. Use of 3/16" lines will
change the feel of the brakes, but not much else. The amount of fluid transfer
during braking is small.
I can supply a set of EPDM O-rings if you are interested in swapping to DOT 4.
No sense in using the lower rated DOT 3 fluid. For improved heat resistance with
the standard fluids, replace the caliper O-rings with items made of Viton
rubber.
Charlie
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 8/31/13, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...
To: "rv-list@matronics.com" <rv-list@matronics.com>
Date: Saturday, August 31, 2013, 10:27 PM
Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
Dot 3 or 4 will destroy the rubber used in most AC brake
components.At least that was true 10 years
ago and I doubt that has changed.
Tracy
RV-4
RV-8
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 31, 2013, at 21:34, Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
wrote:
>
> At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:
>> --> RV8-List message posted by: Dennis Fox
<dennisfox@persona.ca>
>>
>> My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep
thinking about the brake system and lines. Seem to me
like some weight could be saved by going with 3/16 brake
lines, (smaller line and less fluid). Problem with
small lines is the heavy viscosity of A/C hydraulic
oil, especially when cold. Solution would be automotive Dot
3 or Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with
the Matco master cylinders and Cleveland
calipers? Maybe new o-rings could solve the
problem? Anyone know the answer?
>
>
> Hi Dennis,
>
> Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid
between a 1/4" and a 3/16" system on a scale and weigh
them. I think that you're going to find the difference
in weight is almost negligible. Oh the other hand, the
difference in braking capabilities could be deadly.
Personally, I could stand to lose 50 lbs around my
belly. That is some realy weight savings that would
make my RV fly a lot better. :-)
>
> I've done a fair amount of custom stuff on my RV, but
when it comes to engineered stuff like the size of the brake
lines, and other dimensional stuff, Van's is the man.
Van's hates fat airplanes. If he felt that 3/16" brake
lines would be adequate, I know for certain that he would
have used them.
>
> Matt's $.02.
>
>
> -
> Matt Dralle
>
> RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8
Construction Log
> http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild
Log
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV
YouTube Channel
> Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After
Landing Mishap...
>
> RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"
> http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization
Log
> Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete;
Now In Full Flyer Mode
>
> Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!
> Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar
at the Livermore
> Airport. Includes both Tower and Ground
transmissions. Archives too!
> For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com
>
>
>
>
>
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... |
We've installed 3/16" lines on several Lancairs since some need a
particularly small OD to fit past part of the landing gear. They work very
nicely and don't seem any different than 1/4" lines.
I second the opinion about using MIL-PRF-83282. There's not really any
reason not to.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Ed <decaclops@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Nothing wrong with 3/16" lines operationally. They make for a harder pedal
> feel. We're not moving very much fluid to where the difference in size
> would be a detriment. Really, when you think about it, brakes are for run
> up anyway. I use the MIL-PRF-83282 synthetic brake fluid. Van's sells it as
> Royco 782. It has a higher flashpoint than 5606, but is completely
> compatible. That means you can find something that will work when you need
> some fluid away from home.
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
> On 8/31/2013 7:33 PM, Dan Bergeron wrote:
>
>> Dennis
>> Re use of 3/16" brake line instead of Vans' 1/4" - I'm not an engineer
>> but the folks who design airplanes at Vans Aircraft are - they use 1/4"
>> brake lines for a reason - my advice would be don't do it - there is a
>> serious safety issue here - braking action would almost certainly be
>> dangerously impacted - want to save a few ounces - Matt offered some
>> great advice - go on a diet -
>> Dan Bergeron
>> RV-7A - N307TB
>> 425 hours since first
>> flight on 8/6/09
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com
>> <mailto:dralle@matronics.com>> wrote:
>>
>> <mailto:dralle@matronics.com>>
>>
>> At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:
>> >--> RV8-List message posted by: Dennis Fox <dennisfox@persona.ca
>> <mailto:dennisfox@persona.ca>>
>> >
>> >My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep thinking about the
>> brake system and lines. Seem to me like some weight could be saved
>> by going with 3/16 brake lines, (smaller line and less fluid).
>> Problem with small lines is the heavy viscosity of A/C hydraulic
>> oil, especially when cold. Solution would be automotive Dot 3 or
>> Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with the Matco master
>> cylinders and Cleveland calipers? Maybe new o-rings could solve the
>> problem? Anyone know the answer?
>>
>>
>> Hi Dennis,
>>
>> Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid between a 1/4" and
>> a 3/16" system on a scale and weigh them. I think that you're going
>> to find the difference in weight is almost negligible. Oh the other
>> hand, the difference in braking capabilities could be deadly.
>> Personally, I could stand to lose 50 lbs around my belly. That is
>> some realy weight savings that would make my RV fly a lot better. :-)
>>
>> I've done a fair amount of custom stuff on my RV, but when it comes
>> to engineered stuff like the size of the brake lines, and other
>> dimensional stuff, Van's is the man. Van's hates fat airplanes. If
>> he felt that 3/16" brake lines would be adequate, I know for certain
>> that he would have used them.
>>
>> Matt's $.02.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Matt Dralle
>>
>> RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
>> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log
>> http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log
>> http://www.youtube.com/**MattsRV8 <http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8>- Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
>> Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...
>>
>> RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"
>> http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log
>> Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full
>> Flyer Mode
>>
>> Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!
>> Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore
>> Airport. Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions. Archives too!
>> For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> get="_blank">http://www.**matronics.com/Navigator?RV-**List<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List>
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.**matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... |
I applaud the fact that many of you have gotten educated over the years on
the MIL-PRF-83282 fluid (developed in response to many military aircraft br
ake fires in the the early '50s) and the use of Viton O-rings. It only too
k us in GA fifty years to begin adopting it. IMO the 5606 should be consig
ned to the scrap bin of history.
I agree with the acceptability of the 3/16" lines as well. Been working fi
ne for 15 yrs now on N1GV.
-GV
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 1, 2013 10:15 am
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...
We've installed 3/16" lines on several Lancairs since some need a particula
rly small OD to fit past part of the landing gear. They work very nicely a
nd don't seem any different than 1/4" lines.
I second the opinion about using MIL-PRF-83282. There's not really any rea
son not to.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Ed <decaclops@gmail.com> wrote:
Nothing wrong with 3/16" lines operationally. They make for a harder pedal
feel. We're not moving very much fluid to where the difference in size woul
d be a detriment. Really, when you think about it, brakes are for run up an
yway. I use the MIL-PRF-83282 synthetic brake fluid. Van's sells it as Royc
o 782. It has a higher flashpoint than 5606, but is completely compatible.
That means you can find something that will work when you need some fluid a
way from home.
Ed Holyoke
On 8/31/2013 7:33 PM, Dan Bergeron wrote:
Dennis
Re use of 3/16" brake line instead of Vans' 1/4" - I'm not an engineer
but the folks who design airplanes at Vans Aircraft are - they use 1/4"
brake lines for a reason - my advice would be don't do it - there is a
serious safety issue here - braking action would almost certainly be
dangerously impacted - want to save a few ounces - Matt offered some
great advice - go on a diet -
Dan Bergeron
RV-7A - N307TB
425 hours since first
flight on 8/6/09
On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com
<mailto:dralle@matronics.com>> wrote:
<mailto:dralle@matronics.com>>
At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:
>--> RV8-List message posted by: Dennis Fox <dennisfox@persona.ca
<mailto:dennisfox@persona.ca>>
>
>My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep thinking about the
brake system and lines. Seem to me like some weight could be saved
by going with 3/16 brake lines, (smaller line and less fluid).
Problem with small lines is the heavy viscosity of A/C hydraulic
oil, especially when cold. Solution would be automotive Dot 3 or
Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with the Matco master
cylinders and Cleveland calipers? Maybe new o-rings could solve the
problem? Anyone know the answer?
Hi Dennis,
Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid between a 1/4" and
a 3/16" system on a scale and weigh them. I think that you're going
to find the difference in weight is almost negligible. Oh the other
hand, the difference in braking capabilities could be deadly.
Personally, I could stand to lose 50 lbs around my belly. That is
some realy weight savings that would make my RV fly a lot better. :-)
I've done a fair amount of custom stuff on my RV, but when it comes
to engineered stuff like the size of the brake lines, and other
dimensional stuff, Van's is the man. Van's hates fat airplanes. If
he felt that 3/16" brake lines would be adequate, I know for certain
that he would have used them.
Matt's $.02.
-
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log
http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log
http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...
RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"
http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log
Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full
Flyer Mode
Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!
Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore
Airport. Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions. Archives too!
For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com
==========
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
*
*
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...thread drift to brake fluid |
Best reason I've found for not using mil spec fluid is *synthetic*
automatic transmission fluid; available everywhere, high temp, &
compatible with original seals. The internet tubes tell me that Matco
even recommends it.
FWIW,
Charlie
On 09/01/2013 12:12 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
> We've installed 3/16" lines on several Lancairs since some need a
> particularly small OD to fit past part of the landing gear. They work
> very nicely and don't seem any different than 1/4" lines.
>
> I second the opinion about using MIL-PRF-83282. There's not really
> any reason not to.
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Ed <decaclops@gmail.com
> <mailto:decaclops@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> <mailto:decaclops@gmail.com>>
>
> Nothing wrong with 3/16" lines operationally. They make for a
> harder pedal feel. We're not moving very much fluid to where the
> difference in size would be a detriment. Really, when you think
> about it, brakes are for run up anyway. I use the MIL-PRF-83282
> synthetic brake fluid. Van's sells it as Royco 782. It has a
> higher flashpoint than 5606, but is completely compatible. That
> means you can find something that will work when you need some
> fluid away from home.
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
> On 8/31/2013 7:33 PM, Dan Bergeron wrote:
>
> Dennis
> Re use of 3/16" brake line instead of Vans' 1/4" - I'm not an
> engineer
> but the folks who design airplanes at Vans Aircraft are -
> they use 1/4"
> brake lines for a reason - my advice would be don't do it -
> there is a
> serious safety issue here - braking action would almost
> certainly be
> dangerously impacted - want to save a few ounces - Matt
> offered some
> great advice - go on a diet -
> Dan Bergeron
> RV-7A - N307TB
> 425 hours since first
> flight on 8/6/09
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Matt Dralle
> <dralle@matronics.com <mailto:dralle@matronics.com>
> <mailto:dralle@matronics.com <mailto:dralle@matronics.com>>>
> wrote:
>
> <dralle@matronics.com <mailto:dralle@matronics.com>
> <mailto:dralle@matronics.com <mailto:dralle@matronics.com>>>
>
> At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:
> >--> RV8-List message posted by: Dennis Fox
> <dennisfox@persona.ca <mailto:dennisfox@persona.ca>
> <mailto:dennisfox@persona.ca <mailto:dennisfox@persona.ca>>>
> >
> >My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep thinking
> about the
> brake system and lines. Seem to me like some weight could
> be saved
> by going with 3/16 brake lines, (smaller line and less fluid).
> Problem with small lines is the heavy viscosity of A/C
> hydraulic
> oil, especially when cold. Solution would be automotive
> Dot 3 or
> Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with the
> Matco master
> cylinders and Cleveland calipers? Maybe new o-rings could
> solve the
> problem? Anyone know the answer?
>
>
> Hi Dennis,
>
> Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid between a
> 1/4" and
> a 3/16" system on a scale and weigh them. I think that
> you're going
> to find the difference in weight is almost negligible. Oh
> the other
> hand, the difference in braking capabilities could be deadly.
> Personally, I could stand to lose 50 lbs around my
> belly. That is
> some realy weight savings that would make my RV fly a lot
> better. :-)
>
> I've done a fair amount of custom stuff on my RV, but when
> it comes
> to engineered stuff like the size of the brake lines, and
> other
> dimensional stuff, Van's is the man. Van's hates fat
> airplanes. If
> he felt that 3/16" brake lines would be adequate, I know
> for certain
> that he would have used them.
>
> Matt's $.02.
>
>
> -
> Matt Dralle
>
> RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log
> http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
> Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After
> Landing Mishap...
>
> RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"
> http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log
> Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now
> In Full
> Flyer Mode
>
> Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!
> Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at
> the Livermore
> Airport. Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions.
> Archives too!
> For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...thread drift to brake fluid |
I've also heard this, and plan to use Mobile 1 Synthetic ATF in my RV-7
project.
On Sep 1, 2013 1:28 PM, "Charlie England" <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
> Best reason I've found for not using mil spec fluid is *synthetic*
> automatic transmission fluid; available everywhere, high temp, & compatible
> with original seals. The internet tubes tell me that Matco even recommends
> it.
>
> FWIW,
>
> Charlie
>
>
> On 09/01/2013 12:12 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
>
> We've installed 3/16" lines on several Lancairs since some need a
> particularly small OD to fit past part of the landing gear. They work very
> nicely and don't seem any different than 1/4" lines.
>
> I second the opinion about using MIL-PRF-83282. There's not really any
> reason not to.
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Ed <decaclops@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Nothing wrong with 3/16" lines operationally. They make for a harder
>> pedal feel. We're not moving very much fluid to where the difference in
>> size would be a detriment. Really, when you think about it, brakes are for
>> run up anyway. I use the MIL-PRF-83282 synthetic brake fluid. Van's sells
>> it as Royco 782. It has a higher flashpoint than 5606, but is completely
>> compatible. That means you can find something that will work when you need
>> some fluid away from home.
>>
>> Ed Holyoke
>>
>> On 8/31/2013 7:33 PM, Dan Bergeron wrote:
>>
>>> Dennis
>>> Re use of 3/16" brake line instead of Vans' 1/4" - I'm not an engineer
>>> but the folks who design airplanes at Vans Aircraft are - they use 1/4"
>>> brake lines for a reason - my advice would be don't do it - there is a
>>> serious safety issue here - braking action would almost certainly be
>>> dangerously impacted - want to save a few ounces - Matt offered some
>>> great advice - go on a diet -
>>> Dan Bergeron
>>> RV-7A - N307TB
>>> 425 hours since first
>>> flight on 8/6/09
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com
>>> <mailto:dralle@matronics.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> <mailto:dralle@matronics.com>>
>>>
>>> At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:
>>> >--> RV8-List message posted by: Dennis Fox <dennisfox@persona.ca
>>> <mailto:dennisfox@persona.ca>>
>>> >
>>> >My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep thinking about the
>>> brake system and lines. Seem to me like some weight could be saved
>>> by going with 3/16 brake lines, (smaller line and less fluid).
>>> Problem with small lines is the heavy viscosity of A/C hydraulic
>>> oil, especially when cold. Solution would be automotive Dot 3 or
>>> Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with the Matco master
>>> cylinders and Cleveland calipers? Maybe new o-rings could solve the
>>> problem? Anyone know the answer?
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Dennis,
>>>
>>> Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid between a 1/4" and
>>> a 3/16" system on a scale and weigh them. I think that you're going
>>> to find the difference in weight is almost negligible. Oh the other
>>> hand, the difference in braking capabilities could be deadly.
>>> Personally, I could stand to lose 50 lbs around my belly. That is
>>> some realy weight savings that would make my RV fly a lot better.
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> I've done a fair amount of custom stuff on my RV, but when it comes
>>> to engineered stuff like the size of the brake lines, and other
>>> dimensional stuff, Van's is the man. Van's hates fat airplanes. If
>>> he felt that 3/16" brake lines would be adequate, I know for certain
>>> that he would have used them.
>>>
>>> Matt's $.02.
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Matt Dralle
>>>
>>> RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
>>> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log
>>> http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log
>>> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
>>> Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...
>>>
>>> RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"
>>> http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log
>>> Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full
>>> Flyer Mode
>>>
>>> Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!
>>> Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the
>>> Livermore
>>> Airport. Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions. Archives
>>> too!
>>> For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com
>>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... |
Also note that EDPM is not compatible with 5606 or 83282 ! I thought
I
would do the Dot3 or 4 and put in the EDPM ORings but used 5606 later
assuming if good for D3 or D4 it would work as well. See results....not
pretty. Soo...my thought was why change up a good design, just use the
83282 which has a higher flash point and is compatible with anything you
are
likely to find at an airport if you ever need a fill away from home. I
think there is also a better O'Ring for the stock 5606/83282 fluid as
well.
Bill S
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Kuss
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...
Tracy is correct about automotive brake fluids destroying the stock
brake
O-rings. Use of DOT 3 or 4 will require replacement of all the O-rings
in
your master cylinders, parking brake and calipers with items made from
EPDM.
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPDM_rubber
This material has the added benefit of having a higher temperature
rating,
when compared to the stock Nitrile [aka Buna N] O-rings. You would also
have
to change out the flex hoses coming off of the master cylinders from the
stock Nitrile lined units to Teflon lined stainless steel items. Use of
3/16" lines will change the feel of the brakes, but not much else. The
amount of fluid transfer during braking is small.
I can supply a set of EPDM O-rings if you are interested in swapping to
DOT
4. No sense in using the lower rated DOT 3 fluid. For improved heat
resistance with the standard fluids, replace the caliper O-rings with
items
made of Viton rubber.
Charlie
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 8/31/13, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...
To: "rv-list@matronics.com" <rv-list@matronics.com>
Date: Saturday, August 31, 2013, 10:27 PM
Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
Dot 3 or 4 will destroy the rubber used in most AC brake
components.---At
least that was true 10 years ago and I doubt that has changed.
Tracy
RV-4
RV-8
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 31, 2013, at 21:34, Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
wrote:
>
At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:
>> --> RV8-List message posted by: Dennis Fox <dennisfox@persona.ca>
>>
>> My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep thinking about the
brake
system and lines.- Seem to me like some weight could be saved by
going with
3/16 brake lines, (smaller line and less fluid).- Problem with small
lines
is the heavy- viscosity of A/C hydraulic oil, especially when cold.
Solution would be automotive Dot
3 or- Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with the- Matco
master
cylinders and Cleveland calipers?- Maybe new o-rings could solve the
problem?- Anyone know the answer?
>
>
> Hi Dennis,
>
> Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid between a 1/4" and
a
3/16" system on a scale and weigh them.- I think that you're going to
find
the difference in weight is almost negligible.- Oh the other hand,
the
difference in braking capabilities could be deadly. Personally, I could
stand to lose 50 lbs around my belly.- That is some realy weight
savings
that would make my RV fly a lot better.- :-) > > I've done a fair
amount
of custom stuff on my RV, but when it comes to engineered stuff like
the
size of the brake lines, and other dimensional stuff, Van's is the man.
Van's hates fat airplanes.- If he felt that 3/16" brake lines would
be
adequate, I know for certain that he would have used them.
>
> Matt's $.02.
>
>
> -
> Matt Dralle
>
> RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log >
http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log >
http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >
Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...
>
> RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"
> http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log > Status:
180+
Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode > >
Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!
> Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the
Livermore
> Airport.- Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions.- Archives
too!
> For entertainment purposes only.- http://klvk.matronics.com > >
> >
>
Forum -
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Dralle, List Admin.
List
7-Day
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... |
You know, Van might have made the decision to use 1/4" for any number of
reasons. It could be a combination of factors like: it's what they
always used, parts stock commonality, ease of workability for
inexperienced builders, etc. My -7 kit shipped with the old style black
fabric covered flexible lines. Certainly not the best option, measured
by several different standards.
Look how long it took them to switch to a modern airfoil. As great as
the -3-- -8s fly, they finally switched to more modern airfoils on the
later models.
Charlie
On 09/01/2013 12:26 PM, vanremog@aol.com wrote:
> I applaud the fact that many of you have gotten educated over the
> years on the MIL-PRF-83282 fluid (developed in response to many
> military aircraft brake fires in the the early '50s) and the use of
> Viton O-rings. It only took us in GA fifty years to begin adopting
> it. IMO the 5606 should be consigned to the scrap bin of history.
> I agree with the acceptability of the 3/16" lines as well. Been
> working fine for 15 yrs now on N1GV.
> -GV
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
> To: rv-list <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sun, Sep 1, 2013 10:15 am
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...
>
> We've installed 3/16" lines on several Lancairs since some need a
> particularly small OD to fit past part of the landing gear. They work
> very nicely and don't seem any different than 1/4" lines.
>
> I second the opinion about using MIL-PRF-83282. There's not really
> any reason not to.
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Ed <decaclops@gmail.com
> <mailto:decaclops@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> <mailto:decaclops@gmail.com>>
>
> Nothing wrong with 3/16" lines operationally. They make for a
> harder pedal feel. We're not moving very much fluid to where the
> difference in size would be a detriment. Really, when you think
> about it, brakes are for run up anyway. I use the MIL-PRF-83282
> synthetic brake fluid. Van's sells it as Royco 782. It has a
> higher flashpoint than 5606, but is completely compatible. That
> means you can find something that will work when you need some
> fluid away from home.
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
> On 8/31/2013 7:33 PM, Dan Bergeron wrote:
>
> Dennis
> Re use of 3/16" brake line instead of Vans' 1/4" - I'm not an
> engineer
> but the folks who design airplanes at Vans Aircraft are -
> they use 1/4"
> brake lines for a reason - my advice would be don't do it -
> there is a
> serious safety issue here - braking action would almost
> certainly be
> dangerously impacted - want to save a few ounces - Matt
> offered some
> great advice - go on a diet -
> Dan Bergeron
> RV-7A - N307TB
> 425 hours since first
> flight on 8/6/09
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Matt Dralle
> <dralle@matronics.com <mailto:dralle@matronics.com>
> <mailto:dralle@matronics.com <mailto:dralle@matronics.com>>>
> wrote:
>
> <dralle@matronics.com <mailto:dralle@matronics.com>
> <mailto:dralle@matronics.com <mailto:dralle@matronics.com>>>
>
> At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:
> >--> RV8-List message posted by: Dennis Fox
> <dennisfox@persona.ca <mailto:dennisfox@persona.ca>
> <mailto:dennisfox@persona.ca <mailto:dennisfox@persona.ca>>>
> >
> >My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep thinking
> about the
> brake system and lines. Seem to me like some weight could
> be saved
> by going with 3/16 brake lines, (smaller line and less fluid).
> Problem with small lines is the heavy viscosity of A/C
> hydraulic
> oil, especially when cold. Solution would be automotive
> Dot 3 or
> Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with the
> Matco master
> cylinders and Cleveland calipers? Maybe new o-rings could
> solve the
> problem? Anyone know the answer?
>
>
> Hi Dennis,
>
> Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid between a
> 1/4" and
> a 3/16" system on a scale and weigh them. I think that
> you're going
> to find the difference in weight is almost negligible. Oh
> the other
> hand, the difference in braking capabilities could be deadly.
> Personally, I could stand to lose 50 lbs around my
> belly. That is
> some realy weight savings that would make my RV fly a lot
> better. :-)
>
> I've done a fair amount of custom stuff on my RV, but when
> it comes
> to engineered stuff like the size of the brake lines, and
> other
> dimensional stuff, Van's is the man. Van's hates fat
> airplanes. If
> he felt that 3/16" brake lines would be adequate, I know
> for certain
> that he would have used them.
>
> Matt's $.02.
>
>
> -
> Matt Dralle
>
> RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log
> http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
> Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After
> Landing Mishap...
>
> RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"
> http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log
> Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now
> In Full
> Flyer Mode
>
> Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!
> Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at
> the Livermore
> Airport. Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions.
> Archives too!
> For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... |
Nitrile/BunaN Seals = Low temp petroleum-like hydraulic fluids 5606 (non-
hygroscopic)
Viton (Fluorocarbon) Seals = Higher temp petroleum-like hydraulic fluids
83282 and many ATFs (non-hygroscopic)
EPDM Seals = Dot 3 and 4 glycol fluids (hygroscopic)
Natural Rubber Seals = Girling fluid (vegetable oil based)
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schlatterer <billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Sun, Sep 1, 2013 11:07 am
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...
Also note that EDPM is not compatible with 5606 or 83282 ! I thought I
would do the Dot3 or 4 and put in the EDPM ORings but used 5606 later
assuming if good for D3 or D4 it would work as well. See results....not
pretty. Soo...my thought was why change up a good design, just use the
83282 which has a higher flash point and is compatible with anything you ar
e
likely to find at an airport if you ever need a fill away from home. I
think there is also a better O'Ring for the stock 5606/83282 fluid as well.
Bill S
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Kuss
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...
Tracy is correct about automotive brake fluids destroying the stock brake
O-rings. Use of DOT 3 or 4 will require replacement of all the O-rings in
your master cylinders, parking brake and calipers with items made from EPDM
.
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPDM_rubber
This material has the added benefit of having a higher temperature rating,
when compared to the stock Nitrile [aka Buna N] O-rings. You would also hav
e
to change out the flex hoses coming off of the master cylinders from the
stock Nitrile lined units to Teflon lined stainless steel items. Use of
3/16" lines will change the feel of the brakes, but not much else. The
amount of fluid transfer during braking is small.
I can supply a set of EPDM O-rings if you are interested in swapping to DO
T
4. No sense in using the lower rated DOT 3 fluid. For improved heat
resistance with the standard fluids, replace the caliper O-rings with items
made of Viton rubber.
Charlie
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 8/31/13, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...
To: "rv-list@matronics.com" <rv-list@matronics.com>
Date: Saturday, August 31, 2013, 10:27 PM
Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
Dot 3 or 4 will destroy the rubber used in most AC brake components. At
least that was true 10 years ago and I doubt that has changed.
Tracy
RV-4
RV-8
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 31, 2013, at 21:34, Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
wrote:
At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:
>> --> RV8-List message posted by: Dennis Fox <dennisfox@persona.ca> >>
>> My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep thinking about the brak
e
system and lines. Seem to me like some weight could be saved by going wit
h
3/16 brake lines, (smaller line and less fluid). Problem with small line
s
is the heavy viscosity of A/C hydraulic oil, especially when cold.
Solution would be automotive Dot
3 or Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with the Matco master
cylinders and Cleveland calipers? Maybe new o-rings could solve the
problem? Anyone know the answer?
>
>
> Hi Dennis,
>
> Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid between a 1/4" and a
3/16" system on a scale and weigh them. I think that you're going to find
the difference in weight is almost negligible. Oh the other hand, the
difference in braking capabilities could be deadly. Personally, I could
stand to lose 50 lbs around my belly. That is some realy weight savings
that would make my RV fly a lot better. :-) > > I've done a fair amount
of custom stuff on my RV, but when it comes to engineered stuff like the
size of the brake lines, and other dimensional stuff, Van's is the man.
Van's hates fat airplanes. If he felt that 3/16" brake lines would be
adequate, I know for certain that he would have used them.
>
> Matt's $.02.
>
>
> -
> Matt Dralle
>
> RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log >
http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log >
http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >
Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...
>
> RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"
> http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log > Status: 180
+
Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode > >
Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!
> Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore
> Airport. Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions. Archives too!
> For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com > > > >
>
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
List Contribution Web Site -
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Dralle, List Admin.
List
7-Day
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... |
I had some initial wear issues with my -8A left brake (built IAW Vans instr
uctions) during Phase 1. Got those resolved and consider brakes to be a con
dition inspection item, pretty much ignored if working properly the rest of
the time - over 330 hrs. I think substituting 3/16 lines would always ind
uce a "Wonder if they're still ok?" feeling. IMHO not worth the couple ounc
es of weight savings. If you are really into weight savings by the ounce th
ere are a lot of other ways to approach your objectives.
Paul Valovich
N192NM
Message 10
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| Subject: | EAA 21 Club First Saturday Fly-Ins at KEHR, Henderson, KY |
We will be preparing Hamburgers, Brats and NATHANS FAMOUS Hot Dogs for
all that fly in.
Just as New York's 21 Club has become known as the HAPPENING PLACE to be
and be seen, EAA 21 Club is the place to be on the first Saturday of
each month.
When: September 7, October 5
10:00 AM till 2:00 PM Central time.
Where: Henderson Kentucky City-County Airport (KEHR)
If KEHR is VFR then we will be cooking the best Gourmet Burgers,
Brats and Dogs this side of Sporty's.
Message 11
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[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Official RV-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
RV-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines... |
I installed 3/16=9D brake lines made by Bonaco. I asked them the
question about 3/16 vs. =C2=BC and they pointed out that 3/16 is used on
3000lb race cars. Give them a call. They should also have my dimensions
and pics of my lines running from the Grove gear to the caliper.
I have no expertise in brake engineering but my brakes are working well.
John Ciolino
RV-8
N894Y
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...
We've installed 3/16" lines on several Lancairs since some need a
particularly small OD to fit past part of the landing gear. They work
very nicely and don't seem any different than 1/4" lines.
I second the opinion about using MIL-PRF-83282. There's not really any
reason not to.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Ed <decaclops@gmail.com> wrote:
Nothing wrong with 3/16" lines operationally. They make for a harder
pedal feel. We're not moving very much fluid to where the difference in
size would be a detriment. Really, when you think about it, brakes are
for run up anyway. I use the MIL-PRF-83282 synthetic brake fluid. Van's
sells it as Royco 782. It has a higher flashpoint than 5606, but is
completely compatible. That means you can find something that will work
when you need some fluid away from home.
Ed Holyoke
On 8/31/2013 7:33 PM, Dan Bergeron wrote:
Dennis
Re use of 3/16" brake line instead of Vans' 1/4" - I'm not an engineer
but the folks who design airplanes at Vans Aircraft are - they use 1/4"
brake lines for a reason - my advice would be don't do it - there is a
serious safety issue here - braking action would almost certainly be
dangerously impacted - want to save a few ounces - Matt offered some
great advice - go on a diet -
Dan Bergeron
RV-7A - N307TB
425 hours since first
flight on 8/6/09
On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com
<mailto:dralle@matronics.com>> wrote:
<mailto:dralle@matronics.com>>
At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:
>--> RV8-List message posted by: Dennis Fox <dennisfox@persona.ca
<mailto:dennisfox@persona.ca>>
>
>My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep thinking about the
brake system and lines. Seem to me like some weight could be saved
by going with 3/16 brake lines, (smaller line and less fluid).
Problem with small lines is the heavy viscosity of A/C hydraulic
oil, especially when cold. Solution would be automotive Dot 3 or
Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with the Matco master
cylinders and Cleveland calipers? Maybe new o-rings could solve the
problem? Anyone know the answer?
Hi Dennis,
Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid between a 1/4" and
a 3/16" system on a scale and weigh them. I think that you're going
to find the difference in weight is almost negligible. Oh the other
hand, the difference in braking capabilities could be deadly.
Personally, I could stand to lose 50 lbs around my belly. That is
some realy weight savings that would make my RV fly a lot better.
:-)
I've done a fair amount of custom stuff on my RV, but when it comes
to engineered stuff like the size of the brake lines, and other
dimensional stuff, Van's is the man. Van's hates fat airplanes. If
he felt that 3/16" brake lines would be adequate, I know for certain
that he would have used them.
Matt's $.02.
-
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log
http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log
http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing
Mishap...
RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"
http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log
Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full
Flyer Mode
Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!
Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the
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too!
For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com
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