RV-List Digest Archive

Thu 09/18/14


Total Messages Posted: 15



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 07:30 AM - Want your input on iphone vs android ()
     2. 08:09 AM - Re: Want your input on iphone vs android (Gary A. Sobek)
     3. 08:25 AM - Re: Want your input on iphone vs android (Larry Bowen)
     4. 08:28 AM - Re: Want your input on iphone vs android (Charlie England)
     5. 08:45 AM - Re: Want your input on iphone vs android (Linn Walters)
     6. 08:47 AM - Re: Want your input on iphone vs android (Carl Froehlich)
     7. 08:50 AM - Re: Want your input on iphone vs android (Bobby Hester)
     8. 09:10 AM - Re: Want your input on iphone vs android (Garry Stout)
     9. 09:14 AM - Re: Want your input on iphone vs android (Gary A. Sobek)
    10. 09:42 AM - Re: Want your input on iphone vs android (Fisher Paul A.)
    11. 09:54 AM - Re: Want your input on iphone vs android (Gary A. Sobek)
    12. 10:25 AM - Re: Want your input on iphone vs android (Tim Olson)
    13. 06:41 PM - prepaid android phone pireps? (Charlie England)
    14. 07:47 PM - Re: prepaid android phone pireps? (Linn Walters)
    15. 08:01 PM - Re: prepaid android phone pireps? (Charlie England)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 07:30:23 AM PST US
    From: <cheathco@cox.net>
    Subject: Want your input on iphone vs android
    My contract is up, I used hardly any data paying $91. also thinking about p ay as you go. Android has good reviews on flying apps as well as iphone. le t me know what you are using/thinking. Charlie --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protec tion is active. http://www.avast.com


    Message 2


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    Time: 08:09:54 AM PST US
    From: "Gary A. Sobek" <RV6_Flyer@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Want your input on iphone vs android
    iPhone and iPad with Foreflight for over 3-years. Had an Android tablet a little over a year ago and I got rid of it after a short time as there were only bad aviation apps. On 09-18-2014 10:29 AM, cheathco@cox.net wrote: > My contract is up, I used hardly any data paying $91. also thinking > about pay as you go. Android has good reviews on flying apps as well > as iphone. let me know what you are using/thinking. Charlie >


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:25:56 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Want your input on iphone vs android
    From: Larry Bowen <larry@bowenaero.com>
    I prefer Android in general and tried to be content with the flying apps, but they all fell short compared to those available on Apple. I eventually went Ipad mini and iPhone 5S. I still think it was the right choice, at least as far a flying related apps go. It might be a good opportunity to try the iPhone 6 Plus to meet your phone and tablet needs in one device. -- Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 10:29 AM, <cheathco@cox.net> wrote: > My contract is up, I used hardly any data paying $91. also thinking > about pay as you go. Android has good reviews on flying apps as well as > iphone. let me know what you are using/thinking. Charlie > > > ------------------------------ > <http://www.avast.com/> > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > <http://www.avast.com/> protection is active. > > * > > > * > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:28:29 AM PST US
    From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Want your input on iphone vs android
    On 9/18/2014 9:29 AM, cheathco@cox.net wrote: > My contract is up, I used hardly any data paying $91. also thinking > about pay as you go. Android has good reviews on flying apps as well > as iphone. let me know what you are using/thinking. Charlie > I'm currently using an iphone 4 (with no data plan) on ATT prepaid: $100 per year for 1000 minutes, and they roll over each year as long as you renew before the end of the year. You can also go month-to-month, but it's easier for me to pay once a year. I have SkyCharts Pro on the phone (I think it was a one-time charge of $20). Works great for my vfr cross country flying, but limited features; unlike the higher dollar programs. I also have a Nexus 7 tablet (1st generation) that works fine in the cockpit. 2nd gen are supposed to be even better. I'm running Avare on it (free); also works great, again with somewhat limited features. I've considered buying an android phone and switching phone service to one of the prepaid $50/month unlimited voice/data plans, but I don't need data on-the-go often enough to justify an extra $40/month for data. There are cheaper data plans out there for low volume use, especially for just phone use (no tablet connectivity). These days, a phone contract makes no sense unless you're 'grandfathered' into one of the old no-limit, no-throttle programs that no one sells anymore. If you have one of the grandfathered unlimited data plans, I'd bet you could 'sublet' your number to a friend/relative who needs lots of data, for enough money to get yourself a new phone/number/prepaid plan for free. :-) Charlie


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:45:52 AM PST US
    From: Linn Walters <flying-nut@cfl.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Want your input on iphone vs android
    On 9/18/2014 10:29 AM, cheathco@cox.net wrote: > My contract is up, I used hardly any data paying $91. also thinking > about pay as you go. Android has good reviews on flying apps as well > as iphone. let me know what you are using/thinking. Charlie Can't comment on iphone ..... I have AT&T service but like my buddy's T-mobile contract better. I might switch since they'll buy your contract. I don't use much data (2 GB) either, doing most stuff on my home wifi. Only time I seem to use data is looking at weather when I'm away from home. Also, when you're away from home, almost any fast food place has wifi. If you're a Brighthouse subscriber they have free wifi spread around too. I have android phone and tablet. I have anywheremap on the tablet that I fly with, but also have avare on both. I have lifetime IFR/VFR subscription for anywheremap, but that seems to be their lifetime, not mine. Avare is free, and is constantly being upgraded .... by volunteers who write the code so it should always be free ..... donations accepted. Linn


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:47:07 AM PST US
    From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@verizon.net>
    Subject: Want your input on iphone vs android
    I got addicted to ForeFlight on the iPad. I got a WiFi only iPad with a Bad Elf GPS. While WiFi is needed for flight planning weather, I never had a situation where I was not able to find WiFi when needed. This of course eliminates the monthly data bill. I like the set up. Carl From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cheathco@cox.net Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 10:30 AM Subject: RV-List: Want your input on iphone vs android My contract is up, I used hardly any data paying $91. also thinking about pay as you go. Android has good reviews on flying apps as well as iphone. let me know what you are using/thinking. Charlie _____ <http://www.avast.com/> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com/> protection is active.


    Message 7


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    Time: 08:50:58 AM PST US
    From: Bobby Hester <bobbyhester@twc.com>
    Subject: Re: Want your input on iphone vs android
    If you are using a newer iPhone 5or 5s and your contact is up you can use St raight talk for $45 a mouth unlimited talk/text and I think 2 gigs of Data. Sent from my Verizon iPhone > On Sep 18, 2014, at 9:29 AM, <cheathco@cox.net> <cheathco@cox.net> wrote: > > My contract is up, I used hardly any data paying $91. also thinking about p ay as you go. Android has good reviews on flying apps as well as iphone. let me know what you are using/thinking. Charlie > > > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus prote ction is active. > > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:10:47 AM PST US
    From: "Garry Stout" <garrys@tampabay.rr.com>
    Subject: Want your input on iphone vs android
    I am using an iPad Mini in the cockpit with Foreflight Pro. I love the software but the Mini screen is almost impossible to read on all but a very cloudy day. Does anyone know of a tablet or whatever that will run Foreflight, but has a sunlight readable screen? Garry Stout From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 11:30 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Want your input on iphone vs android On 9/18/2014 9:29 AM, cheathco@cox.net <mailto:cheathco@cox.net> wrote: My contract is up, I used hardly any data paying $91. also thinking about pay as you go. Android has good reviews on flying apps as well as iphone. let me know what you are using/thinking. Charlie I'm currently using an iphone 4 (with no data plan) on ATT prepaid: $100 per year for 1000 minutes, and they roll over each year as long as you renew before the end of the year. You can also go month-to-month, but it's easier for me to pay once a year. I have SkyCharts Pro on the phone (I think it was a one-time charge of $20). Works great for my vfr cross country flying, but limited features; unlike the higher dollar programs. I also have a Nexus 7 tablet (1st generation) that works fine in the cockpit. 2nd gen are supposed to be even better. I'm running Avare on it (free); also works great, again with somewhat limited features. I've considered buying an android phone and switching phone service to one of the prepaid $50/month unlimited voice/data plans, but I don't need data on-the-go often enough to justify an extra $40/month for data. There are cheaper data plans out there for low volume use, especially for just phone use (no tablet connectivity). These days, a phone contract makes no sense unless you're 'grandfathered' into one of the old no-limit, no-throttle programs that no one sells anymore. If you have one of the grandfathered unlimited data plans, I'd bet you could 'sublet' your number to a friend/relative who needs lots of data, for enough money to get yourself a new phone/number/prepaid plan for free. :-) Charlie


    Message 9


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    Time: 09:14:22 AM PST US
    From: "Gary A. Sobek" <RV6_Flyer@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Want your input on iphone vs android
    Have had an AT&T iPhone so long that I have UNLIMITED data plus get a 25% discount from the company I retired from on my AT&T data and voice plans. 32GB iPad2 is AT&T but was never activated. Only used on WiFi networks at home, hotels, and FBOs. Thought it was worth the $130 Apple premium to get a built in GPS that will not break off or require an additional charger. BTW, I typically use less than 1GB data per month on my iPhone 5S except for when I travel or am on vacation. Could move to cheaper dataplan but cannot get 25% discount on the cheaper data plan. With the discount, I am only $2.50 a month more than the limited data plan. When traveling or on vacation, I save by keeping my unlimited iPhone data. Replacement iPad was / is 64GB iPad Mini with Retina on T-Mobile. T-Mobile has FREE 200 MB each month for life. Have used iPad Mini a few times on Cell network but T-Mobile typically only has data in big cities. Foreflight is my standard App. Have SkyCharts Pro but quit using it as Foreflight has the best user interface. WingX, Garmin Pilot, and FlyQ (Seattle Avionics) are all good but I like Foreflight best so I pay Foreflight for a subscription the past 3-years. Any iPad you get for aviation use REQUIRES Anti Glare Screen protector. iPad is not very usable in the RV Cockpit without the Anti Glare Screen Protector. Gary > On Sep 18, 2014, at 9:29 AM, <cheathco@cox.net > <mailto:cheathco@cox.net>> <cheathco@cox.net > <mailto:cheathco@cox.net>> wrote: > >> My contract is up, I used hardly any data paying $91. also thinking >> about pay as you go. Android has good reviews on flying apps as well >> as iphone. let me know what you are using/thinking. Charlie >>


    Message 10


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    Time: 09:42:56 AM PST US
    From: "Fisher Paul A." <FisherPaulA@johndeere.com>
    Subject: Want your input on iphone vs android
    I use an Android tablet that is WiFi only (no data contract at all!) and ru n Naviator (http://www.naviatorapp.com/) as my primary flight application. It's not free ($35/year), but it has been worth the price from my perspect ive. The developer is very responsive to issues that people bring up on th e forum. As someone else mentioned, I too have been experimenting with Avare (http:/ /apps4av.com/avare-overview/), but I don't think it is quite there yet. Bu t as was also mentioned it is being upgraded regularly, so maybe it will ge t there soon! I've also been playing with Fltpln Go (http://fltplan.com) which is also fr ee. It has a lot of nice features as well. As long as you have WiFi available on the ground, I don't see a big need fo r a data plan on my tablet. I also have an Android phone, but all of my fl ight planning is done on the tablet. Just my $0.02. Paul A. Fisher RV-7A N18PF


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:54:12 AM PST US
    From: "Gary A. Sobek" <RV6_Flyer@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Want your input on iphone vs android
    Garry: You must get an Anti Glare screen protector. I typically use a CHEAP one. Here is a link to one that is reasonable in cost. http://smile.amazon.com/Halo-Screen-Protector-Anti-Glare-Retina/dp/B00AOK54MA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1411058952&sr=8-2&keywords=iPad+mini+anti+glare+screen+protector I agree that the iPad is not very useful in the cockpit without an Anti Glare Screen protector. I used an iPad with an Anti Glare screen protector in Southern California for more than two years with very few viewing issues in my RV. Yes I fly over 100 hours per year. Gary On 09-18-2014 12:07 PM, Garry Stout wrote: > > I am using an iPad Mini in the cockpit with Foreflight Pro. I love > the software but the Mini screen is almost impossible to read on all > but a very cloudy day. Does anyone know of a tablet or whatever that > will run Foreflight, but has a sunlight readable screen? > > > > Garry Stout > > > > > > *From:*owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Charlie England > *Sent:* Thursday, September 18, 2014 11:30 AM > *To:* rv-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Want your input on iphone vs android > > > > On 9/18/2014 9:29 AM, cheathco@cox.net <mailto:cheathco@cox.net> wrote: > > My contract is up, I used hardly any data paying $91. also > thinking about pay as you go. Android has good reviews on flying > apps as well as iphone. let me know what you are using/thinking. > Charlie > > > > I'm currently using an iphone 4 (with no data plan) on ATT prepaid: > $100 per year for 1000 minutes, and they roll over each year as long > as you renew before the end of the year. You can also go > month-to-month, but it's easier for me to pay once a year. > > I have SkyCharts Pro on the phone (I think it was a one-time charge of > $20). Works great for my vfr cross country flying, but limited > features; unlike the higher dollar programs. > > I also have a Nexus 7 tablet (1st generation) that works fine in the > cockpit. 2nd gen are supposed to be even better. I'm running Avare on > it (free); also works great, again with somewhat limited features. > > I've considered buying an android phone and switching phone service to > one of the prepaid $50/month unlimited voice/data plans, but I don't > need data on-the-go often enough to justify an extra $40/month for > data. There are cheaper data plans out there for low volume use, > especially for just phone use (no tablet connectivity). > > These days, a phone contract makes no sense unless you're > 'grandfathered' into one of the old no-limit, no-throttle programs > that no one sells anymore. > > If you have one of the grandfathered unlimited data plans, I'd bet you > could 'sublet' your number to a friend/relative who needs lots of > data, for enough money to get yourself a new phone/number/prepaid plan > for free. :-) > > Charlie > > * * > ========================http://www.matronics.=============== > http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web generous > nbsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/c > * * > <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> > <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> > * > > > *


    Message 12


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    Time: 10:25:54 AM PST US
    From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
    Subject: Re: Want your input on iphone vs android
    I use Brando anti-glare protectors on everything. They work real well. Rumor has it the next iPad Air will have an anti glare screen, so I may not h ave to anymore. I like the way the Brando feels, too. Tim > On Sep 18, 2014, at 11:53 AM, "Gary A. Sobek" <RV6_Flyer@hotmail.com> wrot e: > > Garry: > > You must get an Anti Glare screen protector. I typically use a CHEAP one. > > Here is a link to one that is reasonable in cost. > http://smile.amazon.com/Halo-Screen-Protector-Anti-Glare-Retina/dp/B00AOK5 4MA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1411058952&sr=8-2&keywords=iPad+mini+an ti+glare+screen+protector > > I agree that the iPad is not very useful in the cockpit without an Anti Gl are Screen protector. I used an iPad with an Anti Glare screen protecto r in Southern California for more than two years with very few viewing issue s in my RV. Yes I fly over 100 hours per year. > > Gary > >> On 09-18-2014 12:07 PM, Garry Stout wrote: >> I am using an iPad Mini in the cockpit with Foreflight Pro. I love the s oftware but the Mini screen is almost impossible to read on all but a very c loudy day. Does anyone know of a tablet or whatever that will run Forefligh t, but has a sunlight readable screen? >> >> Garry Stout >> >> >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@mat ronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England >> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 11:30 AM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Want your input on iphone vs android >> >> On 9/18/2014 9:29 AM, cheathco@cox.net wrote: >> My contract is up, I used hardly any data paying $91. also thinking about pay as you go. Android has good reviews on flying apps as well as iphone. l et me know what you are using/thinking. Charlie >> >> I'm currently using an iphone 4 (with no data plan) on ATT prepaid: $100 p er year for 1000 minutes, and they roll over each year as long as you renew b efore the end of the year. You can also go month-to-month, but it's easier f or me to pay once a year. >> >> I have SkyCharts Pro on the phone (I think it was a one-time charge of $2 0). Works great for my vfr cross country flying, but limited features; unlik e the higher dollar programs. >> >> I also have a Nexus 7 tablet (1st generation) that works fine in the cock pit. 2nd gen are supposed to be even better. I'm running Avare on it (free); also works great, again with somewhat limited features. >> >> I've considered buying an android phone and switching phone service to on e of the prepaid $50/month unlimited voice/data plans, but I don't need data on-the-go often enough to justify an extra $40/month for data. There are ch eaper data plans out there for low volume use, especially for just phone use (no tablet connectivity). >> >> These days, a phone contract makes no sense unless you're 'grandfathered' into one of the old no-limit, no-throttle programs that no one sells anymor e. >> >> If you have one of the grandfathered unlimited data plans, I'd bet you co uld 'sublet' your number to a friend/relative who needs lots of data, for en ough money to get yourself a new phone/number/prepaid plan for free. :-) >> >> Charlie >> >> ========================h ttp://www.matronics.=============== >> http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web generous nbsp ; --> http://www.matronics.com/c >> >> >> >> new,courier" size="2">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List >> s.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> om/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >


    Message 13


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    Time: 06:41:36 PM PST US
    From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
    Subject: prepaid android phone pireps?
    Since Charlie H brought it up.... Anyone have a recommendation for an inexpensive android phone with, at minimum, the hardware capabilities of something like an iphone 4/4s? I'm considering the replacement of my iphone 4 with an android device. I'd like the ability to move between carriers, but be able to continue using my ATT gophone sim card at present. A potential future use would be as a 'hot spot' for my Nexus 7 tablet & my wife's ipad. Any thoughts on an inexpensive unlocked phone? I don't need 'tomorrow's state of the art'. Buying used doesn't necessarily bother me, as long as it's truly unlocked and I can use my ATT prepaid (gophone) sim card in the short term. Thanks, Charlie


    Message 14


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    Time: 07:47:00 PM PST US
    From: Linn Walters <flying-nut@cfl.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: prepaid android phone pireps?
    Go on ebay ..... lots of hits for android phone ..... You should do some homework to find what models have the capabilities you want. The Samsung S5 has a pressure sensor .... my S4 doesn't. I upgraded from an old flip phone and didn't know what I really had! Linn On 9/18/2014 9:42 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > Since Charlie H brought it up.... > > Anyone have a recommendation for an inexpensive android phone with, at > minimum, the hardware capabilities of something like an iphone 4/4s? > I'm considering the replacement of my iphone 4 with an android device. > I'd like the ability to move between carriers, but be able to continue > using my ATT gophone sim card at present. A potential future use would > be as a 'hot spot' for my Nexus 7 tablet & my wife's ipad. > > Any thoughts on an inexpensive unlocked phone? I don't need > 'tomorrow's state of the art'. Buying used doesn't necessarily bother > me, as long as it's truly unlocked and I can use my ATT prepaid > (gophone) sim card in the short term. > > Thanks, > > Charlie > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 08:01:43 PM PST US
    From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: prepaid android phone pireps?
    I was hoping someone had already done that research. :-) Seriously, I have been looking, but there are so many choices, it's just about impossible to sort through them. Thanks, Charlie On 9/18/2014 9:45 PM, Linn Walters wrote: > > Go on ebay ..... lots of hits for android phone ..... > You should do some homework to find what models have the capabilities > you want. The Samsung S5 has a pressure sensor .... my S4 doesn't. I > upgraded from an old flip phone and didn't know what I really had! > Linn > > On 9/18/2014 9:42 PM, Charlie England wrote: >> >> Since Charlie H brought it up.... >> >> Anyone have a recommendation for an inexpensive android phone with, >> at minimum, the hardware capabilities of something like an iphone >> 4/4s? I'm considering the replacement of my iphone 4 with an android >> device. I'd like the ability to move between carriers, but be able to >> continue using my ATT gophone sim card at present. A potential future >> use would be as a 'hot spot' for my Nexus 7 tablet & my wife's ipad. >> >> Any thoughts on an inexpensive unlocked phone? I don't need >> 'tomorrow's state of the art'. Buying used doesn't necessarily bother >> me, as long as it's truly unlocked and I can use my ATT prepaid >> (gophone) sim card in the short term. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Charlie >> >> >> >> >> >>




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