---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/19/15: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 02:04 PM - Auction For P113 eMag To Support Matronics List Fund Raiser (Matt Dralle) 1. 04:52 AM - Re: Lycoming O-360 Fuel Flow Rate (Linn Walters) 2. 10:47 AM - Re: Lycoming O-360 Fuel Flow Rate (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 3. 12:48 PM - Re: Lycoming O-360 Fuel Flow Rate (Matt Dralle) 4. 01:31 PM - Re: Re: Lycoming O-360 Fuel Flow Rate (Ken Cantrell) 5. 07:41 PM - 2015 List of Contributors (Matt Dralle) 6. 08:46 PM - Re: Re: Lycoming O-360 Fuel Flow Rate (Lee Johnston) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 02:04:20 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Auction For P113 eMag To Support Matronics List Fund Raiser Dear Listers, Bob Nuckolls of the AeroElectric fame has generously put a new eMag P113 electronic 4-cylinder mag up for sale on EBay. Bob has pledged to donate all of the proceeds from this auction in support of this year's Matronics Fund Raiser. If you are in the market for one of these great electronic ignitions (I have two eMags on my RV-8 and love them), please bid on this one! http://www.ebay.com/itm/151920582478 Thank you in advance! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Lycoming O-360 Fuel Flow Rate From: Linn Walters We really do agree ..... for Matt's case. Too many listers (me included :-P ) read posts and take the content as being applicable in a broad sense. I didn't want a whole new thread to result because others aren't getting EGTs in that specific range. I have friends that are completely anal about their EGT readings ..... especially when they have a new (to them) engine monitoring system. Linn On 12/19/2015 12:05 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > I don't disagree with your points in general, but they are not > particularly relevant for this situation. > 1. His fuel flow has demonstrated to be unreliable, so is not properly > calibrated. > 2. At full power installation variations are minimized due to the > velocity and volume of exhaust, compared to cruise settings. > 3. 1200-1300 are very reliable numbers. Whether it varies 25 degrees > one way or the other is not important. It is important that it be > within that 100 degree range to indicate combustion approximately > 150-200 ROP. Given he does not know if his fuel flow is working, only > the EGT will confirm fuel flow. > The actual temp will vary from engine to engine and with OAT. That is > why it is a range, not a single number. He wants to know if his fuel > flow is in the ballpark to safely operate the engine, not if it is > optimal. > > On 12/18/2015 7:55 PM, Linn Walters wrote: >> >> EGT varies significantly depending on where the probes are in >> relation to the flange, and also radially. EGT is most valuable as a >> comparison to the history ..... significant change in EGT will alert >> you to a change in that cylinders operation, but the actual number >> (historically) really doesn't tell you much. Properly calibrated FF >> and a MP gauge will tell you far more about power. >> Linn (IMHO) >> >> On 12/18/2015 7:28 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >>> >>> While fuel flow numbers are good general indicators, EGT will tell >>> you more. On takeoff at sea level you should see 1200-1300 EGT with >>> 1250 optimal. If your fuel flow is too low EGT will go well above 1300. >>> Assuming 180 hp version, Fuel flow for takeoff should be around >>> 16-18 gph. Cruise at 75% should be 9-9.5 gph. >>> >>> On 12/18/2015 4:25 PM, Charlie England wrote: >>>> >>>> On 12/18/2015 4:38 PM, Matt Dralle wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm still chasing down this weird problem with low fuel flow rates >>>>> on the RV-6. I've replaced the mechanical fuel pump and got a >>>>> rebuilt 4-5 carburetor, both of which were well over do for >>>>> replacement/overhaul anyway. I haven't put the cowling back on >>>>> yet, but I did a static run up to about 2350-2400 and am seeing >>>>> about 9gph, which seems low to me? >>>>> >>>>> I pulled the fuel line off the carburetor and turned the electric >>>>> fuel pump on and saw about 21 GPH flow. Is that considered >>>>> "normal" or too low? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the feedback, >>>>> >>>>> Matt >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> Matt Dralle >>>> Never paid much attention to my flow when doing a static runup, but >>>> that doesn't sound too unreasonable. If CS & flat pitch, it won't >>>> take much power to get to 2400rpm. What's the MAP? You should be >>>> able to use Lyc's power charts to see MAP/rpm/power. 75% on a 180 >>>> is around 10 GPH, if leaned. Obviously lower fuel flow if you're >>>> under 24". >>>> >>>> I think that the FAA recommends 125% of max power flow if running a >>>> pump (150% for gravity feed). Max power flow would be (180 * >>>> .6)/6=18GPH. That would assume a very rich mixture of .6 lbs per HP >>>> per hour. So your electric pump flow sounds more than adequate. >>>> >>>> It's really odd that you didn't see any degraded performance when >>>> your flow went from 17 down to 9 gph in climbout, unless it's some >>>> sort of instrumentation issue giving false readings. Hard to >>>> explain two different flow monitors making the same error, but hard >>>> to explain the performance, too. :-) >>>> >>>> Having said that, if you were seeing 9gph in a full power (2700rpm, >>>> full rich, 29"MAP) before, and you're now seeing the same flow on >>>> the ground, with less than full throttle, flat pitch & 2400 rpm, >>>> then *something* must be better now. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:50 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Lycoming O-360 Fuel Flow Rate Hi Matt, It wouldn't be too hard to check the calibration of your fuel flow gauge including the sensor. Could you make a restricted fitting so that it flows about 10 to 14 GPH using the electric pump? See how long it takes to fill a 1 quart jar while observing the fuel flow meter. Divide 900 by the time in seconds for GPH. 60 seconds would be 15 GPH. Compare the calculated GPH with what your fuel flow gauge read during the test. Be careful, obviously! Just a wild idea, so take it for what its worth! I know someone (can't name the person!) who put the sensor in backwards while being distracted by a visitor. The readings were low! Dan RV-7A 766DH -- flying since 2004 In a message dated 12/18/2015 5:42:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dralle@matronics.com writes: I'm still chasing down this weird problem with low fuel flow rates on the RV-6. I've replaced the mechanical fuel pump and got a rebuilt 4-5 carburetor, both of which were well over do for replacement/overhaul anyway. I haven't put the cowling back on yet, but I did a static run up to about 2350-2400 and am seeing about 9gph, which seems low to me? I pulled the fuel line off the carburetor and turned the electric fuel pump on and saw about 21 GPH flow. Is that considered "normal" or too low? Thanks for the feedback, Matt ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:48:32 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Re: Lycoming O-360 Fuel Flow Rate Thank you to everyone that responded!! There were some great comments that got me going down the right path. Last night I got the cowling back on and took the RV-6 out on the runway and ran it up to full power with the intent of carefully watching the flow rate and aborting the take off if the flow wasn't sufficiently high enough. I'm happy to report that the flow rate climbed nicely up though the teens as my takeoff roll progressed. I lifted off around 15-16 gph and decided to take it around the pattern. As I climbed through the crosswind to downwind turn I noted that the flow was in the 18.5gph range, RPM was at 2700, and EGTs were low 1300's. After a few more loops around the pattern everything seemed to be working as expected. I took it out of the pattern and dialed it into my normal cruse configuration which is typically 75% power at 2250 RPM and leaned to about 1425 on the hottest EGT. Everything sounded and felt fine. Flow was right at 9.5 GPH per usual. The only weird thing I noticed was at about 1700 RPM. When I turn from Downwind to Base and go from idle to about 2000 RPM like I usually do, right about 1700 RPM the engine kind of sags and then picks back up. It is very repeatable. Strangely there is no sag on the ground after a touch and go when I push the throttle in fast going from idle to full power anymore like there was with the old carb. Does anyone have any idea what that sag at 1700 is? Is there a nurd knob on the carb for this specifically? Thanks again for the great feedback! Matt Dralle At 02:38 PM 12/18/2015 Friday, Matt Dralle wrote: >I'm still chasing down this weird problem with low fuel flow rates on the RV-6. I've replaced the mechanical fuel pump and got a rebuilt 4-5 carburetor, both of which were well over do for replacement/overhaul anyway. I haven't put the cowling back on yet, but I did a static run up to about 2350-2400 and am seeing about 9gph, which seems low to me? > >I pulled the fuel line off the carburetor and turned the electric fuel pump on and saw about 21 GPH flow. Is that considered "normal" or too low? > >Thanks for the feedback, > >Matt - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 210+ Hours TTSN - Version 2.0 Now Flying! RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer" http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log Status: 300+ Hours - Full Flyer Mode! Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream! Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore Airport. Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions. Archives too! For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:31:39 PM PST US From: "Ken Cantrell" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Lycoming O-360 Fuel Flow Rate For me, in the same situation,(in the pattern adding power from idle) this sag at 1700 has been very common. I have 2100+ hours on my O-360 precision carburetor RV-6. Always unsettling but never became a more serious issue. Ken Cantrell -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Dralle Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 12:45 PM rv6-list@matronics.com; rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV-List: Re: Lycoming O-360 Fuel Flow Rate Thank you to everyone that responded!! There were some great comments that got me going down the right path. Last night I got the cowling back on and took the RV-6 out on the runway and ran it up to full power with the intent of carefully watching the flow rate and aborting the take off if the flow wasn't sufficiently high enough. I'm happy to report that the flow rate climbed nicely up though the teens as my takeoff roll progressed. I lifted off around 15-16 gph and decided to take it around the pattern. As I climbed through the crosswind to downwind turn I noted that the flow was in the 18.5gph range, RPM was at 2700, and EGTs were low 1300's. After a few more loops around the pattern everything seemed to be working as expected. I took it out of the pattern and dialed it into my normal cruse configuration which is typically 75% power at 2250 RPM and leaned to about 1425 on the hottest EGT. Everything sounded and felt fine. Flow was right at 9.5 GPH per usual. The only weird thing I noticed was at about 1700 RPM. When I turn from Downwind to Base and go from idle to about 2000 RPM like I usually do, right about 1700 RPM the engine kind of sags and then picks back up. It is very repeatable. Strangely there is no sag on the ground after a touch and go when I push the throttle in fast going from idle to full power anymore like there was with the old carb. Does anyone have any idea what that sag at 1700 is? Is there a nurd knob on the carb for this specifically? Thanks again for the great feedback! Matt Dralle At 02:38 PM 12/18/2015 Friday, Matt Dralle wrote: >I'm still chasing down this weird problem with low fuel flow rates on the RV-6. I've replaced the mechanical fuel pump and got a rebuilt 4-5 carburetor, both of which were well over do for replacement/overhaul anyway. I haven't put the cowling back on yet, but I did a static run up to about 2350-2400 and am seeing about 9gph, which seems low to me? > >I pulled the fuel line off the carburetor and turned the electric fuel pump on and saw about 21 GPH flow. Is that considered "normal" or too low? > >Thanks for the feedback, > >Matt - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 210+ Hours TTSN - Version 2.0 Now Flying! RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer" http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log Status: 300+ Hours - Full Flyer Mode! Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream! Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore Airport. Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions. Archives too! For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:15 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: 2015 List of Contributors Dear Listers, The 2015 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of weeks ago and it's time that I published this year's List of Contributors. It is the people on this list that directly make these Email Lists and Forums possible! Their generous Contributions keep the servers and Internet connection up and running! You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 I also want to thank Andy, Bob, and George for their generous support through the supply of many great gifts this year!! These guys have some excellent products and I encourage you to visit their respective web sites: Andy Gold - The Builder's Bookstore - http://www.buildersbooks.com Bob Nucklolls - AeroElectric - http://www.aeroelectric.com George Race - Race Consulting - http://www.mrrace.com And finally, I'm proud to present The 2015 Fund Raiser List of Contributors: http://www.matronics.com/loc/2015.html Thanks again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List & Forum Administrator ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Lycoming O-360 Fuel Flow Rate From: Lee Johnston Trying leaving the mixture a little lean in the pattern and I think you will find the issue stops happening. LeRoy Johnston RV-6A Esperanza 1000 hours. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 19, 2015, at 4:30 PM, "Ken Cantrell" wrote: > > > For me, in the same situation,(in the pattern adding power from idle) this > sag at 1700 has been very common. I have 2100+ hours on my O-360 precision > carburetor RV-6. Always unsettling but never became a more serious issue. > > Ken Cantrell > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Dralle > Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 12:45 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com; LycomingEngines-list@matronics.com; > rv6-list@matronics.com; rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Re: Lycoming O-360 Fuel Flow Rate > > > Thank you to everyone that responded!! There were some great comments that > got me going down the right path. > > Last night I got the cowling back on and took the RV-6 out on the runway and > ran it up to full power with the intent of carefully watching the flow rate > and aborting the take off if the flow wasn't sufficiently high enough. I'm > happy to report that the flow rate climbed nicely up though the teens as my > takeoff roll progressed. I lifted off around 15-16 gph and decided to take > it around the pattern. As I climbed through the crosswind to downwind turn > I noted that the flow was in the 18.5gph range, RPM was at 2700, and EGTs > were low 1300's. After a few more loops around the pattern everything > seemed to be working as expected. I took it out of the pattern and dialed > it into my normal cruse configuration which is typically 75% power at 2250 > RPM and leaned to about 1425 on the hottest EGT. Everything sounded and > felt fine. Flow was right at 9.5 GPH per usual. > > The only weird thing I noticed was at about 1700 RPM. When I turn from > Downwind to Base and go from idle to about 2000 RPM like I usually do, right > about 1700 RPM the engine kind of sags and then picks back up. It is very > repeatable. Strangely there is no sag on the ground after a touch and go > when I push the throttle in fast going from idle to full power anymore like > there was with the old carb. > > Does anyone have any idea what that sag at 1700 is? Is there a nurd knob on > the carb for this specifically? > > Thanks again for the great feedback! > > Matt Dralle > > > > At 02:38 PM 12/18/2015 Friday, Matt Dralle wrote: > >> I'm still chasing down this weird problem with low fuel flow rates on the > RV-6. I've replaced the mechanical fuel pump and got a rebuilt 4-5 > carburetor, both of which were well over do for replacement/overhaul anyway. > I haven't put the cowling back on yet, but I did a static run up to about > 2350-2400 and am seeing about 9gph, which seems low to me? >> >> I pulled the fuel line off the carburetor and turned the electric fuel pump > on and saw about 21 GPH flow. Is that considered "normal" or too low? >> >> Thanks for the feedback, >> >> Matt > > - > Matt Dralle > > RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > Status: 210+ Hours TTSN - Version 2.0 Now Flying! > > RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer" > http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log > Status: 300+ Hours - Full Flyer Mode! > > Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream! > Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore > Airport. Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions. Archives too! > For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.