---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/23/05:25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:08 AM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (Tim Olson) 2. 06:13 AM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (bob.kaufmann) 3. 07:15 AM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 4. 07:22 AM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (Tim Olson) 5. 07:53 AM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (Rene Felker) 6. 09:17 AM - Trutrak Autopilot (Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)) 7. 09:19 AM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (Mani Ravee) 8. 09:47 AM - Re: Trutrak Autopilot (Sean Stephens) 9. 09:48 AM - Re: Trutrak Autopilot (Tim Olson) 10. 10:06 AM - Re: Trutrak Autopilot (John W. Cox) 11. 10:09 AM - Day 2, mistakes no. 1 and 2. (James Hein) 12. 10:41 AM - Re: Trutrak Autopilot (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com) 13. 10:44 AM - Re: Day 2, mistakes no. 1 and 2. (Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)) 14. 11:37 AM - Re: Day 2, mistakes no. 1 and 2. (John Hasbrouck) 15. 12:27 PM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (JOHN STARN) 16. 12:34 PM - Re: Day 2, mistakes no. 1 and 2. (Tim Olson) 17. 12:44 PM - Re: Trutrak Autopilot (Tim Olson) 18. 01:17 PM - Re: Trutrak Autopilot (Bill Schlatterer) 19. 01:25 PM - Re: Trutrak Autopilot (Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)) 20. 01:38 PM - Re: Trutrak Autopilot (Werner Schneider) 21. 06:27 PM - Re: Trutrak Autopilot (Wayne Edgerton) 22. 06:35 PM - Re: Trutrak Autopilot (Wayne Edgerton) 23. 08:15 PM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (Robert G. Wright) 24. 08:36 PM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (Brian Denk) 25. 09:33 PM - Re: Trutrak Autopilot (LessDragProd@AOL.COM) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:08:11 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Ahhh, I forgot about the round head rivets! Yeah, I've done THAT a hundred times. Some of those dang round head rivets are a pain! Hard to believe, even though they'd seem self centering. I've had times riveting alone where I just about screwed up parts of the kit, and went in the house raving to the wife that if she didn't get out there and help I was going to mess something up. Those longer round head rivets really go much better with help sometimes, depending on the angle and reach you have to do. Thanks for the info Stein! Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Stein Bruch wrote: > Acutally, "smileys" aren't really known as a phenomenon on flush rivets > at all. Dents from your mushroom set should be called that, dents. If > they happen to be in a semi-cirlce then you have something like a "giant > smiley" on the metal, but not really on the rivet. > > "Traditional" smileys are from button head rivets (470's) when you have > the rivet set off to the side when shooting, it leaves a really nice, > little smile on the rivet head. Depending on how bad your screw up was, > it may be a minor smile, or I've seen them where they've almost sliced > the rivet head in half (yikes)! > > Anyway, just wanted to clear that up! Been around rivets for awhile > now, from little RV's to 747's (and lot's of stuff in between) and > that's what I've been exposed to. > > Cheers, > Stein > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]*On Behalf Of *RV > Builder (Michael Sausen) > *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2005 9:22 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs > > It would appear both. Having just generated a few from the mushroom > set myself, I can definatly see how those could be called smileys. > I believe the original term was from the 426 sets not being on > center causing the semi-circle on the rivets themselves. > > Just my 2 cents. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 7:06 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > OK, I'm going to try not to look like an idiot here but... > > I've always wondered when people talk about smileys, are they > talking about when the rivet head itself gets the curved marks on > it, or is this when your mushroom set starts to angle a bit and you > end up with a curved ring the size of a quarter around the rivet > area. I've also had it happen when I've bounced off the edge of a > rib when doing a skin, and ended up with a slight dent where the rib > stops supporting the skin. > > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > > > > matronix.rv10@4sythe.com wrote: > > --> RV10-List message posted by: matronix.rv10@4sythe.com > > > > Does anyone have recommendations on fixing a smiley after it is > > already there? I have one right near the front HS spar where the > > bucking bar slipped off of the rivet. The indention is very > > noticeable and I'm not sure if it should be filled in before final > > priming and painting or if I should address it before that. How much > > should I worry about this and is there any impact on structural > integrity? > > > > Thoughts/Ideas? > > > > Kent Forsythe > > FORTECH, LLC > > 8919 Brookside Ave. > > Suite 201 > > West Chester, Ohio 45069 > > > > 513.759.2000 voice > > 513.759.2001 fax > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server.at.matronics.com@matronix.rv10.at.4sythe. > > com] On Behalf Of Rick > > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 10:16 AM > > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs > > > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick > > > > Michael, > > > > If I had to do it again I would get somebody to help. My arms were > > pretty sore and brusied up after doing those HS skins. When I was > > almost done fellow -10 builder John Erickson came over and we > finished > > the rest without even breaking a sweat. I was lucky not to have > made any smileys. > > Other than the fact I use a mushroom set with a rubber lip that keeps > > it in place, It isn't the swivel type, I have managed to develop a > > good feel for balancing the bucking bar on top of the rivet by feel, > > sorta teeterer tottering while concentrating on the rivet set. Be > > careful not to let the bar touch the skin or you'll get the > infamous reverse smiley. > > You will get de'jevu when you get to the leading edge wing skins and > > tanks. Bottom line is take your time, make sure the bar is not > > touching the skins and the rivet set is flush on the skin. Don't > be in > > a big hurry to fire off the gun. Slow taps to start seem to work just > > as well as a suicide burst. > > > > Rick S. > > 40185 > > Wings > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==================================== > RV10-List Email Forum - > more: > bsp; > s.com/Navigator?RV10-List > ==================================== > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:23 AM PST US From: "bob.kaufmann" Subject: RE: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs Its amazing, here Rick, John, and I are almost finished with the wings and you guys finally tell us that you all have smileys. Hey Rick do we have to screw up just to join this club. Bob K _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN STARN Subject: Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs YES... There are no stupid questions. As my ole pappy usta say "It's better to ask a question & maybe look foolish for a second, than not ask it and remain ignorant for the rest of your life". KABONG 8*) (GBA & GWB) Do Not Archive I've always wondered when people talk about smileys, are they talking about when the rivet head itself gets the curved marks on it, or is this when your mushroom set starts to angle a bit and you end up with a curved ring the size of a quarter around the rivet area. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:15 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Umm, need more beer. 470 is what I meant. :-) do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stein Bruch Subject: RE: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs Acutally, "smileys" aren't really known as a phenomenon on flush rivets at all. Dents from your mushroom set should be called that, dents. If they happen to be in a semi-cirlce then you have something like a "giant smiley" on the metal, but not really on the rivet. "Traditional" smileys are from button head rivets (470's) when you have the rivet set off to the side when shooting, it leaves a really nice, little smile on the rivet head. Depending on how bad your screw up was, it may be a minor smile, or I've seen them where they've almost sliced the rivet head in half (yikes)! Anyway, just wanted to clear that up! Been around rivets for awhile now, from little RV's to 747's (and lot's of stuff in between) and that's what I've been exposed to. Cheers, Stein -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 9:22 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs =09 =09 It would appear both. Having just generated a few from the mushroom set myself, I can definatly see how those could be called smileys. I believe the original term was from the 426 sets not being on center causing the semi-circle on the rivets themselves. =09 Just my 2 cents. =09 Michael =09 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 7:06 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs =09 --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson =09 OK, I'm going to try not to look like an idiot here but... =09 I've always wondered when people talk about smileys, are they talking about when the rivet head itself gets the curved marks on it, or is this when your mushroom set starts to angle a bit and you end up with a curved ring the size of a quarter around the rivet area. I've also had it happen when I've bounced off the edge of a rib when doing a skin, and ended up with a slight dent where the rib stops supporting the skin. =09 =09 Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 =09 =09 =09 matronix.rv10@4sythe.com wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: matronix.rv10@4sythe.com > > Does anyone have recommendations on fixing a smiley after it is > already there? I have one right near the front HS spar where the > bucking bar slipped off of the rivet. The indention is very > noticeable and I'm not sure if it should be filled in before final > priming and painting or if I should address it before that. How much > should I worry about this and is there any impact on structural integrity? > > Thoughts/Ideas? > > Kent Forsythe > FORTECH, LLC > 8919 Brookside Ave. > Suite 201 > West Chester, Ohio 45069 > > 513.759.2000 voice > 513.759.2001 fax > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server.at.matronics.com@matronix.rv10.at.4sythe. > com] On Behalf Of Rick > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 10:16 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick > > Michael, > > If I had to do it again I would get somebody to help. My arms were > pretty sore and brusied up after doing those HS skins. When I was > almost done fellow -10 builder John Erickson came over and we finished > the rest without even breaking a sweat. I was lucky not to have made any smileys. > Other than the fact I use a mushroom set with a rubber lip that keeps > it in place, It isn't the swivel type, I have managed to develop a > good feel for balancing the bucking bar on top of the rivet by feel, > sorta teeterer tottering while concentrating on the rivet set. Be > careful not to let the bar touch the skin or you'll get the infamous reverse smiley. > You will get de'jevu when you get to the leading edge wing skins and > tanks. Bottom line is take your time, make sure the bar is not > touching the skins and the rivet set is flush on the skin. Don't be in > a big hurry to fire off the gun. Slow taps to start seem to work just > as well as a suicide burst. > > Rick S. > 40185 > Wings > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =09 =09 =09 more: bsp; s.com/Navigator?RV10-List =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:49 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson In order to join that club, you have to perform the following on your kit... * 10 large smileys on round head rivets * 2 dents from mushroom sets * At least one unsightly mis-dimpled extra hole -or- optional 5 holes so oversized you have to use OOOps rivets. :) Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 bob.kaufmann wrote: > Its amazing, here Rick, John, and I are almost finished with the wings > and you guys finally tell us that you all have smileys. Hey Rick do we > have to screw up just to join this club. > > > > Bob K > > > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *JOHN STARN > *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2005 8:37 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs > > > > YES... > > > > There are no stupid questions. As my ole pappy usta say "It's better to > ask a question & maybe look foolish for a second, than not ask it > and remain ignorant for the rest of your life". KABONG 8*) (GBA & GWB) > > Do Not Archive > > > I've always wondered when people talk about smileys, are they > talking about when the rivet head itself gets the curved marks on > it, or is this when your mushroom set starts to angle a bit and you > end up with a curved ring the size of a quarter around the rivet area. > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:47 AM PST US From: "Rene Felker" Subject: RE: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs --> RV10-List message posted by: "Rene Felker" Sign me up.......tailcone complete and I have met the criteria. Rene' Felker 40322 N423CF (801) 399-1858x205 (c)(801) 721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson In order to join that club, you have to perform the following on your kit... * 10 large smileys on round head rivets * 2 dents from mushroom sets * At least one unsightly mis-dimpled extra hole -or- optional 5 holes so oversized you have to use OOOps rivets. :) Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 bob.kaufmann wrote: > Its amazing, here Rick, John, and I are almost finished with the wings > and you guys finally tell us that you all have smileys. Hey Rick do we > have to screw up just to join this club. > > > Bob K > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *JOHN STARN > *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2005 8:37 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs > > > YES... > > > There are no stupid questions. As my ole pappy usta say "It's better to > ask a question & maybe look foolish for a second, than not ask it > and remain ignorant for the rest of your life". KABONG 8*) (GBA & GWB) > > Do Not Archive > > > I've always wondered when people talk about smileys, are they > talking about when the rivet head itself gets the curved marks on > it, or is this when your mushroom set starts to angle a bit and you > end up with a curved ring the size of a quarter around the rivet area. > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:17:27 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot From: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" I have been checking prices on TruTrak autopilots and it seems that everyone is selling them at the same price. What I have heard is that TruTrak specifys the price the retailers will sell them at. This just makes me mad and not want to use their products. Any alternatives to this nonsense they are imposing on us? Niko ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:29 AM PST US From: "Mani Ravee" Subject: RE: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs --> RV10-List message posted by: "Mani Ravee" This thread is sweet. No more skeletons in the closet. Bring em out folks. :) Well to fess up I think I have two dents from mushroom sets. And one smiley on a rivet head. A small one. Will the gods that be ever forgive me? :) Mani -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker Subject: RE: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs --> RV10-List message posted by: "Rene Felker" Sign me up.......tailcone complete and I have met the criteria. Rene' Felker 40322 N423CF (801) 399-1858x205 (c)(801) 721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson In order to join that club, you have to perform the following on your kit... * 10 large smileys on round head rivets * 2 dents from mushroom sets * At least one unsightly mis-dimpled extra hole -or- optional 5 holes so oversized you have to use OOOps rivets. :) Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 bob.kaufmann wrote: > Its amazing, here Rick, John, and I are almost finished with the wings > and you guys finally tell us that you all have smileys. Hey Rick do we > have to screw up just to join this club. > > > Bob K > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *JOHN STARN > *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2005 8:37 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs > > > YES... > > > There are no stupid questions. As my ole pappy usta say "It's better to > ask a question & maybe look foolish for a second, than not ask it > and remain ignorant for the rest of your life". KABONG 8*) (GBA & GWB) > > Do Not Archive > > > I've always wondered when people talk about smileys, are they > talking about when the rivet head itself gets the curved marks on > it, or is this when your mushroom set starts to angle a bit and you > end up with a curved ring the size of a quarter around the rivet area. > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:43 AM PST US From: Sean Stephens Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot --> RV10-List message posted by: Sean Stephens Here's what I'm leaning towards... http://www.trioavionics.com/ -Sean #40303 Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr) wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" > >I have been checking prices on TruTrak autopilots and it seems that everyone is selling them at the same price. What I have heard is that TruTrak specifys the price the retailers will sell them at. This just makes me mad and not want to use their products. Any alternatives to this nonsense they are imposing on us? > >Niko > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:09 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson It may be just the stuff you're finding on the web. In my experience, I ordered my servos from TruTrak, but then after I was paid up I found out that the same autopilot, or servos only, would have been a bunch cheaper from other places. Try http://www.steinair.com/ or http://www.rvtraining.com/ I know that both of those places sold the stuff at less than TruTrak's price. They may have a minimum advertized price, or even a minimum sales price or something but you should be able to at least find them less than buying direct. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr) wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" > > I have been checking prices on TruTrak autopilots and it seems that everyone is selling them at the same price. What I have heard is that TruTrak specifys the price the retailers will sell them at. This just makes me mad and not want to use their products. Any alternatives to this nonsense they are imposing on us? > > Niko > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:17 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot From: "John W. Cox" --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Niko, it's a free market capitalist system. Take your hard earned dollars to the competition. If the features are less robust, the alternative may still be to an acceptable level of satisfaction to you. Why should a manufacturer bypass retailers and price discount to the end user? I look for the best deal possible, make sure it is of the quality and feature set desired, then go for it. When I deal with a retailer, I expect a higher level of service. Tim turned me on to the Sorcerer (and a higher feature set) and I have patiently waited since he mentioned it. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to start another thread like the Oregon Aero seats (which are included in the price of the kit everyone buys - thus effective ending that discussion). Can you clarify the Nonsense for me so I can relate? John -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr) Subject: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot --> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" I have been checking prices on TruTrak autopilots and it seems that everyone is selling them at the same price. What I have heard is that TruTrak specifys the price the retailers will sell them at. This just makes me mad and not want to use their products. Any alternatives to this nonsense they are imposing on us? Niko ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:53 AM PST US d="scan'217,145,208"; a="953616367:sNHT169396844" From: James Hein Subject: RV10-List: Day 2, mistakes no. 1 and 2. DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list --- MIME Errors --- A message with no text/plain section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using plaintext formatting. NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus WAS NOT forwarded on to the List. The poster should be informed of the potential problem with their system as soon as possible. --- MIME Errors --- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:32 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot --> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" I am not talking about what price a manufacturer charges directly to their customers or to the retailer. Its their option to charge whatever they want. I am talking about specifying the minimum price that a retailer has to charge for that product he just bought and wants to resell. Mind you I am not saying that I know this is happening for a fact. I do find it strange that a good number of shops have the same price. For example if I am a retailer and I just bought product A from a manufacturer for say $1000 which has a retail price of $2000 the manufacturer tells me that I can't sell their product for less than $1800. In a free market, if I bought a product from a manufacturer for $1000 and I want to sell it for $1100 because it fits my business model its my business not the manufacturers. If I have a low markup high volume business its my prerogative. A manufacturer setting a price that an independent retailer has to sell something at is the exact opposite of a free market system. This would be equivalent to the oil companies telling the independent gas stations you have to charge a minimum of 4 dollars per gallon if you want to sell our gas regardless of what it costs you. And by the way since, you did bring up the seats again, I don't have a problem with Van's putting the seats in the kit. Its their kit and if they want to incorporate them into the kits its their option. What I am talking about is not related to the seat issue at all. Check the hot news flash at the following site http://www.homebuiltcentral.com/site/960757/page/45029 Niko -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Niko, it's a free market capitalist system. Take your hard earned dollars to the competition. If the features are less robust, the alternative may still be to an acceptable level of satisfaction to you. Why should a manufacturer bypass retailers and price discount to the end user? I look for the best deal possible, make sure it is of the quality and feature set desired, then go for it. When I deal with a retailer, I expect a higher level of service. Tim turned me on to the Sorcerer (and a higher feature set) and I have patiently waited since he mentioned it. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to start another thread like the Oregon Aero seats (which are included in the price of the kit everyone buys - thus effective ending that discussion). Can you clarify the Nonsense for me so I can relate? John -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr) Subject: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot --> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" I have been checking prices on TruTrak autopilots and it seems that everyone is selling them at the same price. What I have heard is that TruTrak specifys the price the retailers will sell them at. This just makes me mad and not want to use their products. Any alternatives to this nonsense they are imposing on us? Niko ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Day 2, mistakes no. 1 and 2. From: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" I had a similar problem and contacted Vans. I was told that it should be okay and that its common to be overly zealous with the countersinking when you first start out. You might want to send these pictures to Vans. Niko -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of James Hein Subject: RV10-List: Day 2, mistakes no. 1 and 2. Well folks, I've made my first two mistakes. (Does this mean I can officialy join the club?) Mistake #1: Adjusting machine countersink too deep (a small chip was stuck on the countersink, so I inadvertently adjusted it too deep.) Result: 1 countersink in the VS-1008 too deep. Mistake #2: Having too much fun with the countersinking. Result: 3 extra countersinks above the upper attach bolt holes in the VS-1008 I will probably be ordering a new VS-1008 on Monday since I don't like how it looks, however I would like to know what you think about this goof . Could you just use flush rivets in the 3 extra countersunk holes? Is the countersink way too deep, or just a bit? I've attached pictures to show the goof; I dropped a flush rivet in the countersink that went too deep to show it. -Jim 40384 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:44 AM PST US From: "John Hasbrouck" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Day 2, mistakes no. 1 and 2. Jim, One other solution is to move to the next larger rivet. I did the same thing you did and the 5/32 flush rivet was my solution. Remember the length of the rivet unset should be 1.5 times the diameter so you may need a longer rivet to get the correct shop head. Oh, BTW since we're confessing, I made a couple of reverse dimples on my rudder skins when I riveted the shear clips with the pop riveter. Duck tape over the sharp edges on the tool solved that problem.....john ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:25 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs --> RV10-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" I can't speak for the GODS, but most of us mere mortals certainly will. KABONG Do Not Archive. 8*) )GBA & GWB) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mani Ravee" Subject: RE: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Mani Ravee" > > This thread is sweet. > No more skeletons in the closet. Bring em out folks. :) > Well to fess up I think I have two dents from mushroom sets. And one > smiley > on a rivet head. A small one. Will the gods that be ever forgive me? :) > Mani ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:57 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Day 2, mistakes no. 1 and 2. --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Well, if it's any help... The countersink too deep doesn't look to be a big deal to me at all. If there's still plenty of metal there, and it's only a couple rivets it's probably not worth doing anything. And, I just checked my VS for you....those 2 extra countersunk holes....I looked at my VS, and I don't see any issue with just using countersunk rivets there. My guess is that there would be no strength issue, and the only reason that the other once got countersunk was probably due to the way that VS spar mates up with the tailcone. Then they switched to the AN470 rivets up higher, but I really don't see any real difference except for not having to countersink. So, from the looks of it, if it were mine, I'd leave it and move on. You'll probably make far worse mistakes along the way....save the hassle of shipping parts to you for something that's really a bigger deal. That's just advice from another person who's never flown a plane he's built, but, your photos just don't make it look that bad. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 James Hein wrote: > Well folks, I've made my first two mistakes. (Does this mean I can > officialy join the club?) > > Mistake #1: Adjusting machine countersink too deep (a small chip was > stuck on the countersink, so I inadvertently adjusted it too deep.) > Result: 1 countersink in the VS-1008 too deep. > > Mistake #2: Having too much fun with the countersinking. > Result: 3 extra countersinks above the upper attach bolt holes in > the VS-1008 > > I will probably be ordering a new VS-1008 on Monday since I don't like > how it looks, however I would like to know what you think about this > goof . Could you just use flush rivets in the 3 extra countersunk holes? > Is the countersink way too deep, or just a bit? > > I've attached pictures to show the goof; I dropped a flush rivet in the > countersink that went too deep to show it. > > -Jim 40384 > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:39 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Ok, so I read the newsflash about the minimum advertized price....that's exactly what I was talking about (I think I did anyway) in my last email. Minimum ADVERTIZED prices are very common in many industries from many suppliers. Sure, it might not be viewed as being a good thing, kind of like price fixing, but there are all kinds of products that are treated that way. Garmin stuff is often that way I believe. So the manufacturer says you can't ADVERTIZE the price any lower than a specific dollar amount...but, you'll find that if you actually CALL the supplier, they'll sell it cheaper. That's actually why when you surf the net or read some ads in papers, you'll see them put the price down as $$ CALL $$....they don't want to list a price that is $1500, if the real price is going to be $1000....they don't want to look like the high price guy....they'd rather have you call and be happy with the deal you get by phone. So sure, it's maybe something lightly offensive to some done by TruTrak, but it really is a common thing...many buyers just aren't aware that it's happening sometimes. I'd say, call them in person and see what they'll do. I'm betting you'll get better numbers by phone. When I talked to Steinair, I know that they aren't making millions on their products. They seem to be trying to be very fair. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr) wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" > > > I am not talking about what price a manufacturer charges directly to > their customers or to the retailer. Its their option to charge > whatever they want. I am talking about specifying the minimum price > that a retailer has to charge for that product he just bought and > wants to resell. Mind you I am not saying that I know this is > happening for a fact. I do find it strange that a good number of > shops have the same price. > > For example if I am a retailer and I just bought product A from a > manufacturer for say $1000 which has a retail price of $2000 the > manufacturer tells me that I can't sell their product for less than > $1800. In a free market, if I bought a product from a manufacturer > for $1000 and I want to sell it for $1100 because it fits my business > model its my business not the manufacturers. If I have a low markup > high volume business its my prerogative. > > A manufacturer setting a price that an independent retailer has to > sell something at is the exact opposite of a free market system. > This would be equivalent to the oil companies telling the independent > gas stations you have to charge a minimum of 4 dollars per gallon if > you want to sell our gas regardless of what it costs you. > > And by the way since, you did bring up the seats again, I don't have > a problem with Van's putting the seats in the kit. Its their kit and > if they want to incorporate them into the kits its their option. > What I am talking about is not related to the seat issue at all. > > Check the hot news flash at the following site > http://www.homebuiltcentral.com/site/960757/page/45029 > > Niko > > > > -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. > Cox Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 12:49 PM To: > rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot > > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" > > > Niko, it's a free market capitalist system. Take your hard earned > dollars to the competition. If the features are less robust, the > alternative may still be to an acceptable level of satisfaction to > you. > > Why should a manufacturer bypass retailers and price discount to the > end user? I look for the best deal possible, make sure it is of the > quality and feature set desired, then go for it. When I deal with a > retailer, I expect a higher level of service. Tim turned me on to the > Sorcerer (and a higher feature set) and I have patiently waited since > he mentioned it. > > Don't get me wrong, I don't want to start another thread like the > Oregon Aero seats (which are included in the price of the kit > everyone buys - thus effective ending that discussion). > > Can you clarify the Nonsense for me so I can relate? > > John > > -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Napoli, > Nikolaos (Contr) Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:00 AM To: RV10-List > Digest List Subject: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" > > > I have been checking prices on TruTrak autopilots and it seems that > everyone is selling them at the same price. What I have heard is > that TruTrak specifys the price the retailers will sell them at. > This just makes me mad and not want to use their products. Any > alternatives to this nonsense they are imposing on us? > > Niko > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:03 PM PST US From: "Bill Schlatterer" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" Niko, if a TT AP sold to a dealer for 1,000 and retailed for 2,000 you would probably find a lot of difference. A 100% markup or 50% Gross Profit leaves a lot of room for discounts. On the other hand, if the dealer discount is more like 10%, how much variance would you think there would be? I can tell you having shopped the TT's that you can find folks selling these for a variety of prices particularly if you include harnesses, mounts, etc. which some charge for and some do not. But, there is no large margin in them for dealers that would justify large discounts and thus most low volume dealers end up with pricing pretty close. If TT chose not to even use a dealer network and charged their normal retail, they would still be a good value and the discussion would center on why no dealers. Now that they have thrown in a little margin for a dealer network, it's a better deal not a worse one. Availability is greater, service is better and the prices are marginally cheaper. Try Stark Avionics, SteinAir, Fabian, etc. You will find the big difference in value is the service added not the small price differential. I have had good luck with SteinAir, others with Stark, others with Fabian. Pick any one and you'll do OK. All are better than TT direct. Good Luck Bill S 7a Ark -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr) Subject: RE: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot --> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" I am not talking about what price a manufacturer charges directly to their customers or to the retailer. Its their option to charge whatever they want. I am talking about specifying the minimum price that a retailer has to charge for that product he just bought and wants to resell. Mind you I am not saying that I know this is happening for a fact. I do find it strange that a good number of shops have the same price. For example if I am a retailer and I just bought product A from a manufacturer for say $1000 which has a retail price of $2000 the manufacturer tells me that I can't sell their product for less than $1800. In a free market, if I bought a product from a manufacturer for $1000 and I want to sell it for $1100 because it fits my business model its my business not the manufacturers. If I have a low markup high volume business its my prerogative. A manufacturer setting a price that an independent retailer has to sell something at is the exact opposite of a free market system. This would be equivalent to the oil companies telling the independent gas stations you have to charge a minimum of 4 dollars per gallon if you want to sell our gas regardless of what it costs you. And by the way since, you did bring up the seats again, I don't have a problem with Van's putting the seats in the kit. Its their kit and if they want to incorporate them into the kits its their option. What I am talking about is not related to the seat issue at all. Check the hot news flash at the following site http://www.homebuiltcentral.com/site/960757/page/45029 Niko -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Niko, it's a free market capitalist system. Take your hard earned dollars to the competition. If the features are less robust, the alternative may still be to an acceptable level of satisfaction to you. Why should a manufacturer bypass retailers and price discount to the end user? I look for the best deal possible, make sure it is of the quality and feature set desired, then go for it. When I deal with a retailer, I expect a higher level of service. Tim turned me on to the Sorcerer (and a higher feature set) and I have patiently waited since he mentioned it. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to start another thread like the Oregon Aero seats (which are included in the price of the kit everyone buys - thus effective ending that discussion). Can you clarify the Nonsense for me so I can relate? John -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr) Subject: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot --> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" I have been checking prices on TruTrak autopilots and it seems that everyone is selling them at the same price. What I have heard is that TruTrak specifys the price the retailers will sell them at. This just makes me mad and not want to use their products. Any alternatives to this nonsense they are imposing on us? Niko ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:59 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot From: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" Tim You do have valid points and I have also noticed this phenomena in a lot of other products. I didn't make the connection to the $$CALL$$ notes though. You are also correct in that some of the retailers are willing to go below the minimum advertised price and in this case I had to jump through another hoop. Having said all that I will most likely end up with one of their autopilots as they do make good products. Niko ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:23 PM PST US From: "Werner Schneider" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot --> RV10-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" That sounds strange to me, check: http://www.steinair.com/trutrak.htm this prices are as an example lower then trutrak and I believe Van's does the same. Otherwise check http://www.trioavionics.com/ their AP's seems also to be quite advanced. However I like the way my trutrak/altrak work and how they've treated me when things were not working as expected and also their upgrade politic. Werner (still GlaStar bound) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" Subject: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" > > I have been checking prices on TruTrak autopilots and it seems that everyone is selling them at the same price. What I have heard is that TruTrak specifys the price the retailers will sell them at. This just makes me mad and not want to use their products. Any alternatives to this nonsense they are imposing on us? > > Niko > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:38 PM PST US From: "Wayne Edgerton" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot --> RV10-List message posted by: "Wayne Edgerton" Take a look at this link. It appears they have some Tru Trak prices lower than retail. http://www.affordablepanels.com/trutrak_autopilots.htm Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" Subject: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" > > > I have been checking prices on TruTrak autopilots and it seems that > everyone is selling them at the same price. What I have heard is that > TruTrak specifys the price the retailers will sell them at. This just > makes me mad and not want to use their products. Any alternatives to this > nonsense they are imposing on us? > > Niko > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:52 PM PST US From: "Wayne Edgerton" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot --> RV10-List message posted by: "Wayne Edgerton" Here's another one you might want to check for a discount. http://www.rvtraining.com/html/ifr_products.html Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" Subject: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" > > > I have been checking prices on TruTrak autopilots and it seems that > everyone is selling them at the same price. What I have heard is that > TruTrak specifys the price the retailers will sell them at. This just > makes me mad and not want to use their products. Any alternatives to this > nonsense they are imposing on us? > > Niko > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:48 PM PST US From: "Robert G. Wright" Subject: RE: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs --> RV10-List message posted by: "Robert G. Wright" I think I almost met this criteria just on the practice kit.... Rob 40392 Awaiting emp kit ship -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mani Ravee Subject: RE: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs --> RV10-List message posted by: "Mani Ravee" This thread is sweet. No more skeletons in the closet. Bring em out folks. :) Well to fess up I think I have two dents from mushroom sets. And one smiley on a rivet head. A small one. Will the gods that be ever forgive me? :) Mani -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker Subject: RE: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs --> RV10-List message posted by: "Rene Felker" Sign me up.......tailcone complete and I have met the criteria. Rene' Felker 40322 N423CF (801) 399-1858x205 (c)(801) 721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson In order to join that club, you have to perform the following on your kit... * 10 large smileys on round head rivets * 2 dents from mushroom sets * At least one unsightly mis-dimpled extra hole -or- optional 5 holes so oversized you have to use OOOps rivets. :) Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 bob.kaufmann wrote: > Its amazing, here Rick, John, and I are almost finished with the wings > and you guys finally tell us that you all have smileys. Hey Rick do we > have to screw up just to join this club. > > > Bob K > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *JOHN STARN > *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2005 8:37 PM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs > > > YES... > > > There are no stupid questions. As my ole pappy usta say "It's better to > ask a question & maybe look foolish for a second, than not ask it > and remain ignorant for the rest of your life". KABONG 8*) (GBA & GWB) > > Do Not Archive > > > I've always wondered when people talk about smileys, are they > talking about when the rivet head itself gets the curved marks on > it, or is this when your mushroom set starts to angle a bit and you > end up with a curved ring the size of a quarter around the rivet area. > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:37 PM PST US From: "Brian Denk" Subject: RE: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs --> RV10-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" > >I think I almost met this criteria just on the practice kit.... > >Rob >40392 >Awaiting emp kit ship > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mani Ravee >Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 11:02 AM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Mani Ravee" > >This thread is sweet. >No more skeletons in the closet. Bring em out folks. :) >Well to fess up I think I have two dents from mushroom sets. And one smiley >on a rivet head. A small one. Will the gods that be ever forgive me? :) >Mani Gawd, you guys SUCK! My -10 is perfect. Smooth as glass. Not a scuff, ding, boo-boo, fubar, smiley or frownie anywhere. Now, where did I put that can of Bondo... Brian Denk RV8 N94BD....complete with smilies to improve boundary layer airflow so it goes faster than heck and takes off quicker than a prom dress. RV10 '51 waitin' on it's new hangar/shop. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:20 PM PST US From: LessDragProd@AOL.COM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com) Then open the "trutrak autopilot" page. Jim Ayers Less Drag Products, Inc. In a message dated 04/23/2005 9:18:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, nikolaos.napoli@ngc.com writes: --> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" I have been checking prices on TruTrak autopilots and it seems that everyone is selling them at the same price. What I have heard is that TruTrak specifys the price the retailers will sell them at. This just makes me mad and not want to use their products. Any alternatives to this nonsense they are imposing on us? Niko