Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:50 AM - Trutrak AP (David McNeill)
2. 02:06 PM - Re: Trutrak Autopilot (AI Nut)
3. 06:59 PM - Re: builder (shipping) (DejaVu)
4. 07:05 PM - Re: Trutrak AP (Chris)
5. 07:11 PM - Re: Trutrak AP (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
6. 07:12 PM - Re: Weight & Balance? (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
7. 07:26 PM - Re: Trutrak AP (Tim Olson)
8. 07:50 PM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (Rick)
9. 08:04 PM - Re: Trutrak AP (Tim Olson)
10. 08:27 PM - Re: Trutrak Autopilot (James E. Clark)
11. 09:24 PM - Vendor Pricing (RobHickman@AOL.COM)
Message 1
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Have dealt with Van's, TT direct and Stein Air on the TT AP. Bought the Digitrak
for my Glastar through Van's at a slight discount from list. Install package
came at no charge direct from TT. later traded AP heads for the Pictorial pilot
in the Glastar.
When it was time to build the 10 I called SteinAir and got the aileron servo at
a slight discount and purchased the harness as well. Called TT direct and they
supplied the bracket and pushrod hardware at no charge including the shipping.
To put things in perspective "certified AP" in my Cessna cost $2000 in the mid
70s and would only track a VOR/LOC and that marginally. Today's TT and Trio do
an excellent job of tracking a GPS signal which is overlaid on any airway or
approach segment. The inflation adjusted cost is less than 500 1970s dollars.
Today's APs are excellent values and the bargain is in the capabilities rather
than how much off list one is able to extract.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Trutrak Autopilot |
--> RV10-List message posted by: AI Nut <ainut@hiwaay.net>
I bet the FTC would be interested in what sounds like price fixing...
Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr) wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" <nikolaos.napoli@ngc.com>
>
>I have been checking prices on TruTrak autopilots and it seems that everyone is
selling them at the same price. What I have heard is that TruTrak specifys
the price the retailers will sell them at. This just makes me mad and not want
to use their products. Any alternatives to this nonsense they are imposing
on us?
>
>Niko
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: builder (shipping) |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "DejaVu" <wvu@mail.ameritel.net>
Make sure what the freightliners charge you is reasonable. Van's is
supposed to get a discount from them, which you inturn benefit.
My finish kit could've been in my garage here in MD in 8 days total. As it
turned out, it took 6 days for it to go accross the country, and 4 days to
go the last 60 miles. !#$%&
#$%%. ABS said they try to call me last Friday
once the driver was on the road and got no answer. So he turned around and
went back. What's the chance of the driver calling on a Friday afternoon
for a 60mile delivery? My caller ID would've also told me that someone
tried to call so I know no one called. I finally got a hold of the
dispatcher who explained what happened and said that they could deliver any
time next week. I asked what was the earliest that they could deliver
hoping that they would work on Sat. He said: ANY TIME next week. That
would be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.... They had the nerv to be
sarcastic.
I'm off the soap box now thank you very much.
Anh
#141
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Hein" <n8vim@arrl.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: builder
> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
>
> Robert,
> I sent my order in on the 1st, it was in crating on the 8th, and it was
> in my workshop on the 20th, started working on it today, the 22nd. (What
> have I gotten myself into?!? )
>
> I live in eastern MA, so it is almost as far from Vans as you can expect.
>
> Also, the freight companies are charging 13.9% fuel surcharge !!!
>
> -Jim (#40384)
>
> Robert G. Wright wrote:
>
> > All,
> >
> > Vans has started inputting all the orders from SNF.
> >
> > My tail kit went to crating yesterday; it should ship early next
> > weekdo I dare expect local pickup by next Friday???
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > #40392
> >
> > Awaiting tail kit inventory
> >
>
>
> ---
>
>
---
Message 4
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Is it acceptable practice to trust the GPS overlay to track along the localizer?
I am not instrument rated yet and I don't know much about GPS and IFR, but
I am really interested in being able to allow the AP to help keep me on the localizer/ILS.
Only the DFC-200 says it can actually track a VOR/localizer.
-Chris Lucas
#40072
----- Original Message -----
From: David McNeill
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 2:49 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Trutrak AP
Have dealt with Van's, TT direct and Stein Air on the TT AP. Bought the Digitrak
for my Glastar through Van's at a slight discount from list. Install package
came at no charge direct from TT. later traded AP heads for the Pictorial pilot
in the Glastar.
When it was time to build the 10 I called SteinAir and got the aileron servo
at a slight discount and purchased the harness as well. Called TT direct and
they supplied the bracket and pushrod hardware at no charge including the shipping.
To put things in perspective "certified AP" in my Cessna cost $2000 in the mid
70s and would only track a VOR/LOC and that marginally. Today's TT and Trio
do an excellent job of tracking a GPS signal which is overlaid on any airway or
approach segment. The inflation adjusted cost is less than 500 1970s dollars.
Today's APs are excellent values and the bargain is in the capabilities rather
than how much off list one is able to extract.
Message 5
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It's not technically "legal" to use GPS for guidance if you're supposed to be following
the localizer beam . . .
Anyone know the legalities of using an uncertified autopilot for instrument approach
operations?
TDT
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Chris
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak AP
Is it acceptable practice to trust the GPS overlay to track along the localizer?
I am not instrument rated yet and I don't know much about GPS and IFR, but
I am really interested in being able to allow the AP to help keep me on the localizer/ILS.
Only the DFC-200 says it can actually track a VOR/localizer.
-Chris Lucas
#40072
----- Original Message -----
From: David McNeill <mailto:dlm46007@cox.net>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 2:49 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Trutrak AP
Have dealt with Van's, TT direct and Stein Air on the TT AP. Bought the
Digitrak for my Glastar through Van's at a slight discount from list. Install
package came at no charge direct from TT. later traded AP heads for the Pictorial
pilot in the Glastar.
When it was time to build the 10 I called SteinAir and got the aileron
servo at a slight discount and purchased the harness as well. Called TT direct
and they supplied the bracket and pushrod hardware at no charge including the
shipping.
To put things in perspective "certified AP" in my Cessna cost $2000 in
the mid 70s and would only track a VOR/LOC and that marginally. Today's TT and
Trio do an excellent job of tracking a GPS signal which is overlaid on any airway
or approach segment. The inflation adjusted cost is less than 500 1970s dollars.
Today's APs are excellent values and the bargain is in the capabilities
rather than how much off list one is able to extract.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Weight & Balance? |
Was someone with a finish kit going to volunteer to post some of the weight & balance
data from Van's, so we can play with numbers?
TDT
Message 7
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I would think that on any of the true panel-mounted GPS units that
normally go into certified aircraft, that you could fully expect
to fly using the overlays. A handheld, I'd maybe question a bit.
The DFC-200 is now obsolete, but, there are others now...like the
sorcerer. In addition, I recently found that by using the
GRT EFIS, you can actually pay less and get some of the lower
(at least not highest) end models and get the functionality you
want, because the autopilot can slave to the EFIS. So you can
track the VOR/LOC being fed from a GNS-480, and fly it on your
GRT's screen, and it will in turn feed the proper steering to the
TruTrak. (or so I've heard...never flown behind one that way)
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Chris wrote:
> Is it acceptable practice to trust the GPS overlay to track along the
> localizer? I am not instrument rated yet and I don't know much about
> GPS and IFR, but I am really interested in being able to allow the AP to
> help keep me on the localizer/ILS. Only the DFC-200 says it can actually
> track a VOR/localizer.
> -Chris Lucas
> #40072
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* David McNeill <mailto:dlm46007@cox.net>
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 24, 2005 2:49 PM
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Trutrak AP
>
> Have dealt with Van's, TT direct and Stein Air on the TT AP. Bought
> the Digitrak for my Glastar through Van's at a slight discount from
> list. Install package came at no charge direct from TT. later traded
> AP heads for the Pictorial pilot in the Glastar.
> When it was time to build the 10 I called SteinAir and got the
> aileron servo at a slight discount and purchased the harness as
> well. Called TT direct and they supplied the bracket and pushrod
> hardware at no charge including the shipping.
>
> To put things in perspective "certified AP" in my Cessna cost $2000
> in the mid 70s and would only track a VOR/LOC and that marginally.
> Today's TT and Trio do an excellent job of tracking a GPS signal
> which is overlaid on any airway or approach segment. The inflation
> adjusted cost is less than 500 1970s dollars.
>
> Today's APs are excellent values and the bargain is in the
> capabilities rather than how much off list one is able to extract.
do not archive
Message 8
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DNA: do not archive
Its-Bogus: do not forward to list
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Message 9
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Ouch!!! Big miss on my part. I thought he was talking about the GPS
overlays. Yeah, I don't know if you could trust the LOC and VOR
overlays by using a GPS, and you're right that it wouldn't technically
be legal. But, if you have a good radio like the GNS-480 that has
a NAV in it, you can legally track the VOR/LOC overlay on that screen.
As far as the uncertified GPS for doing approaches, I think the
answer would be no....since there are "approach" and "enroute"
certified GPS's.....why would they do all that splitting between
the two CERTIFIED types if there was any chance an uncertified
would meet the "approach" definitions. I'd just stick to
certifiable units if you want to do real IFR flying.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
> It's not technically "legal" to use GPS for guidance if you're supposed to be
following the localizer beam . . .
>
> Anyone know the legalities of using an uncertified autopilot for instrument approach
operations?
>
> TDT
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Chris
> Sent: Sun 4/24/2005 10:05 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak AP
>
>
> Is it acceptable practice to trust the GPS overlay to track along the localizer?
I am not instrument rated yet and I don't know much about GPS and IFR, but
I am really interested in being able to allow the AP to help keep me on the
localizer/ILS. Only the DFC-200 says it can actually track a VOR/localizer.
> -Chris Lucas
> #40072
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David McNeill <mailto:dlm46007@cox.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 2:49 PM
> Subject: RV10-List: Trutrak AP
>
> Have dealt with Van's, TT direct and Stein Air on the TT AP. Bought the
Digitrak for my Glastar through Van's at a slight discount from list. Install
package came at no charge direct from TT. later traded AP heads for the Pictorial
pilot in the Glastar.
> When it was time to build the 10 I called SteinAir and got the aileron
servo at a slight discount and purchased the harness as well. Called TT direct
and they supplied the bracket and pushrod hardware at no charge including
the shipping.
>
> To put things in perspective "certified AP" in my Cessna cost $2000 in
the mid 70s and would only track a VOR/LOC and that marginally. Today's TT and
Trio do an excellent job of tracking a GPS signal which is overlaid on any
airway or approach segment. The inflation adjusted cost is less than 500 1970s
dollars.
>
> Today's APs are excellent values and the bargain is in the capabilities
rather than how much off list one is able to extract.
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Trutrak Autopilot |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
I would think we would best served not to raise the ire of the FTC on a
small innovative company like TT, who is simply trying to make sure they
stay in business as far as I am concerned.
MANY companies have a "suggested" retail price. Most companies know what
margin is required in order for them and their resellers to remain in
business and make a buck or two. They then work to try to establish a
balance.
To be sure, TT could add another 50% to their prices, discount that by 30%
to their dealers and let them have at it. In the end WE end up paying more.
We can very easily put TT (or any company) in a position where it is easier
to just sell the stuff "online" without the support offered by the resellers
... and then not hire enough people to answer the phone because the price
was set too low. Of course they might then go out of business and yes, it is
a tough world out there. But let's give the real innovators a little slack.
In all my dealings with TT, I have found them to be most honorable and
honest as far as I could tell, about EVERYTHING.
There are much bigger windmills out there that could use the attention if
you must.
James
p.s. At some level, **ALL** prices are fixed. By the seller. It is up to the
buyer to decide if (s)he wants to buy at that price. If enough do not, then
the seller often "fixes" it lower. If it is set too high and the seller is
very flexible, you soon enter into the sport of price haggling.
| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-
| server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AI Nut
| Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 5:07 PM
| To: rv10-list@matronics.com
| Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak Autopilot
|
| --> RV10-List message posted by: AI Nut <ainut@hiwaay.net>
|
| I bet the FTC would be interested in what sounds like price fixing...
|
|
| Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr) wrote:
|
| >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)"
| <nikolaos.napoli@ngc.com>
| >
| >I have been checking prices on TruTrak autopilots and it seems that
| everyone is selling them at the same price. What I have heard is that
| TruTrak specifys the price the retailers will sell them at. This just
| makes me mad and not want to use their products. Any alternatives to
| this nonsense they are imposing on us?
| >
| >Niko
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >.
| >
| >
| >
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Message 11
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I bet the FTC would be interested in what sounds like price fixing...
I have some experience with this and deal with it every week.
This really started when Garmin introduced the 296 and set the price for it.
Any dealer found to be selling a 296 below the set price will get their
dealership canceled. Up to this point they had "Minimum Advertised" pricing that
was fixed and you could call for a lower price. When Garmin did this I had a
friend tell me this is not legal, he was positive! My first thought was that
Garmin is a really big company with a large legal department and they would be
the last one to break the law. The answer is apparently with the "Colgate Act"
and Garmin does know what they are doing.
So why would a manufacturer do it?
Don't blame the manufacturer blame the dealers. I get frequent calls from
dealers complaining about other dealers selling products to cheap. Here is the
complaint I get:
Dealer "A" sells products on-line or by phone as a part time business, they
have a regular full time job with health insurance, vacation pay, retirement.
Dealer "A" can sell products at a very low margin and be very happy.
Dealer "B" sells products full time and have all the overhead that goes with
it, building rent, insurance, employee salaries, advertising. Dealer "B" has
to sell products for more to cover the added costs.
As a manufacturer I really don't care who sells the products, I get the same
amount of money. What happens is that dealer "B" decides to advertise and
push another product that does control dealer pricing.
I wish I had a good answer.
Rob Hickman
N401RH RV-4
N402RH RV-10 (Wings in 5 weeks)
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