Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:47 AM - Re: Vendor Pricing (James E. Clark)
2. 05:49 AM - Trutrak (David McNeill)
3. 05:54 AM - Re: Vendor Pricing (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto)
4. 06:38 AM - Re: Vendor Pricing (Andrew Barker)
5. 06:55 AM - Re: Vendor Pricing (James E. Clark)
6. 07:00 AM - Re: Day 2, mistakes no. 1 and 2. (Rick)
7. 07:01 AM - Re: Vendor Pricing (Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr))
8. 07:02 AM - Re: Trutrak (Wayne Edgerton)
9. 07:06 AM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (Rick)
10. 07:15 AM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (matronix.rv10@4sythe.com)
11. 07:45 AM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com)
12. 08:15 AM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (Rick)
13. 08:29 AM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
14. 08:47 AM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (Rick)
15. 10:58 AM - Re: rv10 quick build (Scott Schmidt)
16. 10:59 AM - Re: Weight & Balance? (Scott Schmidt)
17. 11:05 AM - emp kit ship times (James Ochs)
18. 11:26 AM - Re: emp kit ship times (matronix.rv10@4sythe.com)
19. 11:31 AM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (Mark Grieve)
20. 11:34 AM - Re: rv10 quick build (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com)
21. 11:36 AM - Re: rv10 quick build (John Jessen)
22. 11:52 AM - Fuselage Wire Routing (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
23. 11:54 AM - Re: HS Nose Ribs (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
24. 12:35 PM - Re: emp kit ship times (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com)
25. 03:27 PM - Re: Fuselage Wire Routing (Randy DeBauw)
26. 05:07 PM - Re: emp kit ship times (Robert G. Wright)
27. 07:35 PM - Trutrak and ILs etc. (Chris)
28. 08:06 PM - Re: Fuselage Wire Routing (Jesse Saint)
29. 08:55 PM - Re: rv10 quick build (DejaVu)
30. 09:09 PM - Re: Fuselage Wire Routing (DejaVu)
31. 09:11 PM - Switching to a 7A (Paul Folbrecht)
32. 09:27 PM - Re: rv10 quick build (McGANN, Ron)
33. 09:40 PM - Countersinking Tank skins (McGANN, Ron)
Message 1
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And if Dealer "A" sells the product as a "loss leader" (to attract buyers
for OTHER products with high margins, Dealer "B" cannot compete. Dealer "B"
gives up and moves on. Dealer A moves to another product as the loss leader
and now the manufacturer has to start the process (expense) all over to set
up a dealer network.
If the prices are too high, one can simply NOT BUY and move on. I for one
have paid Garmin's "high" price and felt I got value for it. Otherwise I
would not have purchased. Another perspective is from a Manufacturer-End
Customer Relationship point of view.
Imagine if I purchased and ACS 2002 for say $3895 but immediately find that
my buddy Joe got it from somewhere for $1800 (even if the dealer COST was
$2800 and the cost to build was $2000) << I am making up these numbers
except for the approx price>>. Now we have a situation where there is a
perception among potential customers that the product can be had for a price
that is NOT realistic. The manufacturer cannot build it for that.
I am all for the cheapest price I can get for something. But I am NOT for
putting the squeeze on these small innovative companies that are trying to
keep the business (and innovations) alive. And Rob, I consider your company
to be one of those innovative companies that I would hate to see having to
worry about FTC inquiries, EVEN THOUGH they are most likely fully innocent.
Takes time away from innovation.
James
. probably too sensitive to things that have the potential to have a
chilling effect on innovation
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
RobHickman@aol.com
Subject: RV10-List: Vendor Pricing
I bet the FTC would be interested in what sounds like price fixing...
I have some experience with this and deal with it every week.
This really started when Garmin introduced the 296 and set the price for it.
Any dealer found to be selling a 296 below the set price will get their
dealership canceled. Up to this point they had "Minimum Advertised" pricing
that was fixed and you could call for a lower price. When Garmin did this I
had a friend tell me this is not legal, he was positive! My first thought
was that Garmin is a really big company with a large legal department and
they would be the last one to break the law. The answer is apparently with
the "Colgate Act" and Garmin does know what they are doing.
So why would a manufacturer do it?
Don't blame the manufacturer blame the dealers. I get frequent calls from
dealers complaining about other dealers selling products to cheap. Here is
the complaint I get:
Dealer "A" sells products on-line or by phone as a part time business, they
have a regular full time job with health insurance, vacation pay,
retirement. Dealer "A" can sell products at a very low margin and be very
happy.
Dealer "B" sells products full time and have all the overhead that goes with
it, building rent, insurance, employee salaries, advertising. Dealer "B"
has to sell products for more to cover the added costs.
As a manufacturer I really don't care who sells the products, I get the same
amount of money. What happens is that dealer "B" decides to advertise and
push another product that does control dealer pricing.
I wish I had a good answer.
Rob Hickman
N401RH RV-4
N402RH RV-10 (Wings in 5 weeks)
Message 2
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Just another note and I will let this one drop. The principal "designers at TT
have many years experience in engineering APs for S-TEC, so rest assured they
know what they are about.
From the legality aspect who really knows or cares whether your hand is pushing
the stick and you are watching the LOC needle or the AP is moving the controls
and you are monitoring the GPS moving map and the LOC. Having spent many years
in the computer and airline business I can assure that the really low IFR IMC
approaches are flown by the AP and monitored by the PIC.
Message 3
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Not getting into an existential debate on economic theory, keep in mind that the
philosophy of "cheaper is better" is not the best for the long term. Remember
all of your Chinese-made home electronics when the 7th Fleet is fighting 10:1
numbers to help protect Taiwan . . .
TDT
-----Original Message-----
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vendor Pricing
And if Dealer "A" sells the product as a "loss leader" (to attract buyers for OTHER
products with high margins, Dealer "B" cannot compete. Dealer "B" gives up
and moves on. Dealer A moves to another product as the loss leader and now the
manufacturer has to start the process (expense) all over to set up a dealer
network.
If the prices are too high, one can simply NOT BUY and move on. I for one have
paid Garmin's "high" price and felt I got value for it. Otherwise I would not
have purchased. Another perspective is from a Manufacturer-End Customer Relationship
point of view.
Imagine if I purchased and ACS 2002 for say $3895 but immediately find that my
buddy Joe got it from somewhere for $1800 (even if the dealer COST was $2800 and
the cost to build was $2000) << I am making up these numbers except for the
approx price>>. Now we have a situation where there is a perception among potential
customers that the product can be had for a price that is NOT realistic.
The manufacturer cannot build it for that.
I am all for the cheapest price I can get for something. But I am NOT for putting
the squeeze on these small innovative companies that are trying to keep the
business (and innovations) alive. And Rob, I consider your company to be one
of those innovative companies that I would hate to see having to worry about FTC
inquiries, EVEN THOUGH they are most likely fully innocent. Takes time away
from innovation.
James
... probably too sensitive to things that have the potential to have a chilling
effect on innovation
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RobHickman@aol.com
Subject: RV10-List: Vendor Pricing
I bet the FTC would be interested in what sounds like price fixing...
I have some experience with this and deal with it every week.
This really started when Garmin introduced the 296 and set the price for it. Any
dealer found to be selling a 296 below the set price will get their dealership
canceled. Up to this point they had "Minimum Advertised" pricing that was
fixed and you could call for a lower price. When Garmin did this I had a friend
tell me this is not legal, he was positive! My first thought was that Garmin
is a really big company with a large legal department and they would be the
last one to break the law. The answer is apparently with the "Colgate Act" and
Garmin does know what they are doing.
So why would a manufacturer do it?
Don't blame the manufacturer blame the dealers. I get frequent calls from dealers
complaining about other dealers selling products to cheap. Here is the complaint
I get:
Dealer "A" sells products on-line or by phone as a part time business, they have
a regular full time job with health insurance, vacation pay, retirement. Dealer
"A" can sell products at a very low margin and be very happy.
Dealer "B" sells products full time and have all the overhead that goes with it,
building rent, insurance, employee salaries, advertising. Dealer "B" has to
sell products for more to cover the added costs.
As a manufacturer I really don't care who sells the products, I get the same amount
of money. What happens is that dealer "B" decides to advertise and push
another product that does control dealer pricing.
I wish I had a good answer.
Rob Hickman
N401RH RV-4
N402RH RV-10 (Wings in 5 weeks)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Vendor Pricing |
Rob is exactly right, as are a few of the other responses on the list. Yes, we
do have minimum advertised pricing, as do most companies. We do NOT however
dictate a minimum selling price. We were asked by several dealers to go to minimum
advertised pricing so that they would be more protected. We are very open
about this policy, and in fact if you spoke with me at Sun-n-Fun I probably
told you to purchase from a dealer because they will be selling at a lower price
than I. I even quoted a few people the price that they could expect from
a dealer. We do not compete with our dealers, we do still sell direct because
some prefer to purchase from the manufacturer. If we run a special, we even
pass the same special on to all of the dealers so that they can offer our special
as well.
Andrew Barker
General Manager
TruTrak Flight Systems
PH: 479-751-0250 Ext.222
Toll Free: 1-866-TruTrak
www.trutrakap.com
----- Original Message -----
From: RobHickman@aol.com
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 11:23 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Vendor Pricing
I bet the FTC would be interested in what sounds like price fixing...
I have some experience with this and deal with it every week.
This really started when Garmin introduced the 296 and set the price for it.
Any dealer found to be selling a 296 below the set price will get their dealership
canceled. Up to this point they had "Minimum Advertised" pricing that was
fixed and you could call for a lower price. When Garmin did this I had a friend
tell me this is not legal, he was positive! My first thought was that Garmin
is a really big company with a large legal department and they would be the
last one to break the law. The answer is apparently with the "Colgate Act" and
Garmin does know what they are doing.
So why would a manufacturer do it?
Don't blame the manufacturer blame the dealers. I get frequent calls from dealers
complaining about other dealers selling products to cheap. Here is the
complaint I get:
Dealer "A" sells products on-line or by phone as a part time business, they have
a regular full time job with health insurance, vacation pay, retirement.
Dealer "A" can sell products at a very low margin and be very happy.
Dealer "B" sells products full time and have all the overhead that goes with
it, building rent, insurance, employee salaries, advertising. Dealer "B" has
to sell products for more to cover the added costs.
As a manufacturer I really don't care who sells the products, I get the same
amount of money. What happens is that dealer "B" decides to advertise and push
another product that does control dealer pricing.
I wish I had a good answer.
Rob Hickman
N401RH RV-4
N402RH RV-10 (Wings in 5 weeks)
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http://www.nod32.com
Message 5
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I can attest to Andrew's comments here about suggesting one take a look at
their dealers for the best deal.
Good people. He even went through an analysis with me that led to **LESS**
of their equipment being used! I respect that a lot.
James
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Barker
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Vendor Pricing
Rob is exactly right, as are a few of the other responses on the list. Yes,
we do have minimum advertised pricing, as do most companies. We do NOT
however dictate a minimum selling price. We were asked by several dealers
to go to minimum advertised pricing so that they would be more protected.
We are very open about this policy, and in fact if you spoke with me at
Sun-n-Fun I probably told you to purchase from a dealer because they will be
selling at a lower price than I. I even quoted a few people the price that
they could expect from a dealer. We do not compete with our dealers, we do
still sell direct because some prefer to purchase from the manufacturer. If
we run a special, we even pass the same special on to all of the dealers so
that they can offer our special as well.
Andrew Barker
General Manager
TruTrak Flight Systems
PH: 479-751-0250 Ext.222
Toll Free: 1-866-TruTrak
<http://www.trutrakap.com> www.trutrakap.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Day 2, mistakes no. 1 and 2. |
DNA: do not archive
Its-Bogus: do not forward to list
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Message 7
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Good response Rob.
I have to say that the overall cost is small and not really not a big deal as its
an extremely small fraction of the cost of the toys we are building. However,
it is a big deal to the small businesses that are trying to sell these products
at lower prices to compete.
I sure didn't think my post would generate so much interest. I was partly blowing
off some steam.
II gotta go, I have to order myself a TT autopilot.
Niko
[Niko] -----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RobHickman@aol.com
Subject: RV10-List: Vendor Pricing
I bet the FTC would be interested in what sounds like price fixing...
I have some experience with this and deal with it every week.
This really started when Garmin introduced the 296 and set the price for it. Any
dealer found to be selling a 296 below the set price will get their dealership
canceled. Up to this point they had "Minimum Advertised" pricing that was
fixed and you could call for a lower price. When Garmin did this I had a friend
tell me this is not legal, he was positive! My first thought was that Garmin
is a really big company with a large legal department and they would be the
last one to break the law. The answer is apparently with the "Colgate Act" and
Garmin does know what they are doing.
So why would a manufacturer do it?
Don't blame the manufacturer blame the dealers. I get frequent calls from dealers
complaining about other dealers selling products to cheap. Here is the complaint
I get:
Dealer "A" sells products on-line or by phone as a part time business, they have
a regular full time job with health insurance, vacation pay, retirement. Dealer
"A" can sell products at a very low margin and be very happy.
Dealer "B" sells products full time and have all the overhead that goes with it,
building rent, insurance, employee salaries, advertising. Dealer "B" has to
sell products for more to cover the added costs.
As a manufacturer I really don't care who sells the products, I get the same amount
of money. What happens is that dealer "B" decides to advertise and push
another product that does control dealer pricing.
I wish I had a good answer.
Rob Hickman
N401RH RV-4
N402RH RV-10 (Wings in 5 weeks)
Message 8
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David -
I was thinking exactly the same as you. As long as you're monitoring the approach,
whether you or the auotpilot is running the stick is somewhat irrelevant.
Also I believe that the current owner and CEO of Tru Trak designed the Century
line of auto pilots. I talked to him at Sun-N-Fun and told him that I had flown
quite a bit with a Century IV auto pilot, which could intercept and fly an
ILS approach, and he said their Sorrcer, which I believe I will use in my 10,
is much better and has more features than the Century IV.
You would never want to fly any IFR approach with an auto pilot and not monitor
the guages.
----- Original Message -----
From: David McNeill
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 7:48 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Trutrak
Just another note and I will let this one drop. The principal "designers at TT
have many years experience in engineering APs for S-TEC, so rest assured they
know what they are about.
From the legality aspect who really knows or cares whether your hand is pushing
the stick and you are watching the LOC needle or the AP is moving the controls
and you are monitoring the GPS moving map and the LOC. Having spent many years
in the computer and airline business I can assure that the really low IFR
IMC approaches are flown by the AP and monitored by the PIC.
Message 9
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|
| Subject: | Re: HS Nose Ribs |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
Heck I became a member in February 2004, now I have a few dents but most are from
the bucking bar hitting on the inside of the skin. My total is about 7, maybe
8. After paint...NONE!!! I never left a universal rivet in that had the head
smiled. If you peel off that blue plastic the pristine aluminum beneath will
make it look even worse!!! My advice is if you don't have a corrosion issue with
keeping the blue stuff on leave it until the end, that way you will only anguish
ove a dent for a few months vs. years.
Rick S.
40185
Wings
Message 10
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--> RV10-List message posted by: matronix.rv10@4sythe.com
I get a membership for the right hand and one for the left. Double
bonus!!!
Kent Forsythe
40338
HS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server.at.matronics.com@matronix.rv10.at.4sythe.
com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
In order to join that club, you have to perform the following on your
kit...
* 10 large smileys on round head rivets
* 2 dents from mushroom sets
* At least one unsightly mis-dimpled extra hole -or- optional 5
holes so oversized you have to use OOOps rivets.
:)
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
bob.kaufmann wrote:
> Its amazing, here Rick, John, and I are almost finished with the wings
> and you guys finally tell us that you all have smileys. Hey Rick do
we
> have to screw up just to join this club.
>
>
>
> Bob K
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *JOHN
STARN
> *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2005 8:37 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs
>
>
>
> YES...
>
>
>
> There are no stupid questions. As my ole pappy usta say "It's better
to
> ask a question & maybe look foolish for a second, than not ask it
> and remain ignorant for the rest of your life". KABONG 8*) (GBA &
GWB)
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> I've always wondered when people talk about smileys, are they
> talking about when the rivet head itself gets the curved marks on
> it, or is this when your mushroom set starts to angle a bit and
you
> end up with a curved ring the size of a quarter around the rivet
area.
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>
Message 11
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Do you get premier membership for an unintentional extra hole from c-frame dimpling?
What about platinum level if that extra hole was on a fuel tank skin...
Bob #40105
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
matronix.rv10@4sythe.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs
--> RV10-List message posted by: matronix.rv10@4sythe.com
I get a membership for the right hand and one for the left. Double
bonus!!!
Kent Forsythe
40338
HS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server.at.matronics.com@matronix.rv10.at.4sythe.
com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
In order to join that club, you have to perform the following on your
kit...
* 10 large smileys on round head rivets
* 2 dents from mushroom sets
* At least one unsightly mis-dimpled extra hole -or- optional 5
holes so oversized you have to use OOOps rivets.
:)
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
bob.kaufmann wrote:
> Its amazing, here Rick, John, and I are almost finished with the wings
> and you guys finally tell us that you all have smileys. Hey Rick do
we
> have to screw up just to join this club.
>
>
>
> Bob K
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *JOHN
STARN
> *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2005 8:37 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs
>
>
>
> YES...
>
>
>
> There are no stupid questions. As my ole pappy usta say "It's better
to
> ask a question & maybe look foolish for a second, than not ask it
> and remain ignorant for the rest of your life". KABONG 8*) (GBA &
GWB)
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> I've always wondered when people talk about smileys, are they
> talking about when the rivet head itself gets the curved marks on
> it, or is this when your mushroom set starts to angle a bit and
you
> end up with a curved ring the size of a quarter around the rivet
area.
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>
Message 12
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
Bob,
LOL....after just finishing the tanks I can relate to THAT worry, I was extra special
double secret probation careful about not doing a double hit on the tank
skins. FWIW, I used a manometer to check for leaks and it worked great, I think
every filler cap has some leakage to it so for those who use a manometer to
check for leaks, tape over your filler holes with plastic tape or be prepared
to lose sleep and valuable time hunting for ghost leaks. Also a change in barometric
pressure can give you some interesting results as well. If the feeling
you get for finishing the tanks is anything like the first flight, I can't wait!!!
Rick S.
40185
Wings
Message 13
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
Don't forget the groove around a hole from trying to drill out a pop
rivet that got set half way and then broke the mandrel, and will only
spin in the hole no matter how hard you grip it with needle nose pliers,
because there is no way to get a bloody hand back in there without
messing up your primer!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
In order to join that club, you have to perform the following on your
kit...
* 10 large smileys on round head rivets
* 2 dents from mushroom sets
* At least one unsightly mis-dimpled extra hole -or- optional 5
holes so oversized you have to use OOOps rivets.
:)
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
bob.kaufmann wrote:
> Its amazing, here Rick, John, and I are almost finished with the wings
> and you guys finally tell us that you all have smileys. Hey Rick do
we
> have to screw up just to join this club.
>
>
>
> Bob K
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *JOHN
STARN
> *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2005 8:37 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs
>
>
>
> YES...
>
>
>
> There are no stupid questions. As my ole pappy usta say "It's better
to
> ask a question & maybe look foolish for a second, than not ask it
> and remain ignorant for the rest of your life". KABONG 8*) (GBA &
GWB)
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> I've always wondered when people talk about smileys, are they
> talking about when the rivet head itself gets the curved marks on
> it, or is this when your mushroom set starts to angle a bit and
you
> end up with a curved ring the size of a quarter around the rivet
area.
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>
Message 14
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
No kidding,
For those of you not there, the back baffle on the tanks is attached though the
Z-brackets with pop rivets except the end ribs. Sounds easy right?? Let me clue
you in, you mess one of those puppys (luckily I didn't) up especially near
the end of the run of 40 or so rivets you going to be battling to fix it, let
alone getting the already prosealed baffle off so you don't drop the rivet parts
in the tanks. Word of advice...make these pop rivets the best you can because
there's not an easy way to fix it at this point. Riveting the tanks together
is not a real big deal, but I highly recoomend being totally prepared and extra
careful riveting, drilling out a rivet normally is not a problem, add proseal
to the mix and it gets nasty, try picking out the shavings from the sealant,
adding extra time because the proseal is starting to set...prepare, prepare,
prepare, take it in steps, read your steps so you KNOW exactly what you will
be doing and have all your stuff ready like a surgeons tray. You'll be glad when
your finished.
Rick S.
40185
Wings
Message 15
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| Subject: | rv10 quick build |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Scott Schmidt" <sschmidt@ussynthetic.com>
The best thing you can do is have a partner helping you 100% of the
time. We will have our (slow build) RV-10 flying in two years. We have
about 6 months left. And I travel with my work a lot. But Randy is
about right on his time estimates. If I am home on a weekend we both
will work between 12-15 hours on the weekend and 2-3 days during the
week. I am planning to be right around 2000 - 2200 hours but that is
only 1000 shop hours with two people.
I really want to write an article about building with a partner. I have
worked about 2 or 3 days without a partner and I just get frustrated at
how slow I go and just quit. It just isn't even worth my time working
on the plane without having someone there. I think it would be very
easy to order a quick build kit, have someone help you and be flying in
less than one year.
Scott Schmidt
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Folbrecht
Subject: RE: RV10-List: rv10 quick build
--> RV10-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht
<paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com>
3-4 years (for a slow-build) is exactly what I've been planning on.
And I doubt I'll paint it myself.
--- John Jessen <jjessen@rcn.com> wrote:
> So, if I have the arithmetic right, and if life were highly regulated,
and
> one could work 15 hours per week, 48 weeks a year, you'd be done with
the
> quick build in 2.36 years. Slow build 3.05 years. Ouch. John
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | RE: Weight & Balance? |
Sorry, I forgot that I loaned my final instructions to read and I need
to get them back.
Scott Schmidt
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Dawson-Townsend
Subject: RE: Weight & Balance?
Was someone going to post some of that weight and balance information
from the finish kit? Some of us are still waiting on our finish kits .
. . : (
TDT
40025
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Mani Ravee
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Duckworks lights for the 10
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Mani Ravee" <maniravee@sbcglobal.net>
Hey guys, have a web at tripod for a long time now and am really getting
sick of the pop ups. Where do you guys go for hosting your webs online
and
how many gigs of space/ and gigs of transfer per month do you guys get/
Also
how much $? I need to move badly so I can post all my building pics.
Thanks for your input.
Do Not Archive.
Mani
Message 17
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| Subject: | emp kit ship times |
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
Hi All,
Does anyone have an idea of what the current lead time is on the emp.
kit from order to shipment?
do not archive
Thanks,
James
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | emp kit ship times |
--> RV10-List message posted by: matronix.rv10@4sythe.com
James,
Van's seems to hold pretty true to their estimate of lead time on the
empennage. From order date, it takes 7-8 days to crate, then shipping
will vary depending on your part of the country. I am in Ohio and mine
took about a week to arrive...so overall you're probably looking at two
weeks.
Call Vans and I'm sure they'll be truthful on whether or not they're in
stock.
Kent Forsythe
40338
HS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server.at.matronics.com@matronix.rv10.at.4sythe.
com] On Behalf Of James Ochs
Subject: RV10-List: emp kit ship times
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
Hi All,
Does anyone have an idea of what the current lead time is on the emp.
kit from order to shipment?
do not archive
Thanks,
James
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: HS Nose Ribs |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Mark Grieve <mark@macomb.com>
Ouch! Extra holes will happen but doing on on a fuel tank skin raises
your membership to Platinum.
Do not archive
Mark
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>
>Do you get premier membership for an unintentional extra hole from c-frame dimpling?
What about platinum level if that extra hole was on a fuel tank skin...
>
>Bob #40105
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | rv10 quick build |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
You got that right. I have only been with out a building partner for about 2 months
and it makes a huge difference. Randy
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Subject: RE: RV10-List: rv10 quick build
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Scott Schmidt" <sschmidt@ussynthetic.com>
The best thing you can do is have a partner helping you 100% of the
time. We will have our (slow build) RV-10 flying in two years. We have
about 6 months left. And I travel with my work a lot. But Randy is
about right on his time estimates. If I am home on a weekend we both
will work between 12-15 hours on the weekend and 2-3 days during the
week. I am planning to be right around 2000 - 2200 hours but that is
only 1000 shop hours with two people.
I really want to write an article about building with a partner. I have
worked about 2 or 3 days without a partner and I just get frustrated at
how slow I go and just quit. It just isn't even worth my time working
on the plane without having someone there. I think it would be very
easy to order a quick build kit, have someone help you and be flying in
less than one year.
Scott Schmidt
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Folbrecht
Subject: RE: RV10-List: rv10 quick build
--> RV10-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht
<paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com>
3-4 years (for a slow-build) is exactly what I've been planning on.
And I doubt I'll paint it myself.
--- John Jessen <jjessen@rcn.com> wrote:
> So, if I have the arithmetic right, and if life were highly regulated,
and
> one could work 15 hours per week, 48 weeks a year, you'd be done with
the
> quick build in 2.36 years. Slow build 3.05 years. Ouch. John
Message 21
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| Subject: | rv10 quick build |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
I'm very interested in this "partner" building process. Your article will
be interesting, especially on the topics of how the work is divided, how
decisions are made, what incentive each partner has, etc. One person
recommended that I partner with another builder, working x number of days on
his plane with him/her, then y number of days on mine. There would be many
partnering strategies, of course. But, bottom line, if the kits are now so
advanced that a plane as "complex" as the RV-10 could be built (assuming
fast build) in less than 2 years, that would be simply amazing.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Subject: RE: RV10-List: rv10 quick build
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Scott Schmidt"
--> <sschmidt@ussynthetic.com>
The best thing you can do is have a partner helping you 100% of the time.
We will have our (slow build) RV-10 flying in two years. We have about 6
months left. And I travel with my work a lot. But Randy is about right on
his time estimates. If I am home on a weekend we both will work between
12-15 hours on the weekend and 2-3 days during the week. I am planning to
be right around 2000 - 2200 hours but that is only 1000 shop hours with two
people.
I really want to write an article about building with a partner. I have
worked about 2 or 3 days without a partner and I just get frustrated at how
slow I go and just quit. It just isn't even worth my time working on the
plane without having someone there. I think it would be very easy to order
a quick build kit, have someone help you and be flying in less than one
year.
Scott Schmidt
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Folbrecht
Subject: RE: RV10-List: rv10 quick build
--> RV10-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht
<paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com>
3-4 years (for a slow-build) is exactly what I've been planning on.
And I doubt I'll paint it myself.
--- John Jessen <jjessen@rcn.com> wrote:
> So, if I have the arithmetic right, and if life were highly regulated,
and
> one could work 15 hours per week, 48 weeks a year, you'd be done with
the
> quick build in 2.36 years. Slow build 3.05 years. Ouch. John
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Fuselage Wire Routing |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
I finally got a little time in the shop and got the tailcone attached to the main
cabin. How are folks routing cables from the tailcone to the front of the
plane? It looks like some may have to run below the baggage floor and possible
below the rear seat bottoms before transitioning to the side channels. Any
pictures from Randy, Scott or others?
Bob #40105
Message 23
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
It's interesting - I'd occasionally read about somebody putting in an extra hole
while dimpling and wonder how that could ever happen. Of course, never being
satisfied with the ordinary combined with a few millisecond distraction...
Bob #40105
Platinum Member
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark Grieve
Subject: Re: RV10-List: HS Nose Ribs
--> RV10-List message posted by: Mark Grieve <mark@macomb.com>
Ouch! Extra holes will happen but doing on on a fuel tank skin raises
your membership to Platinum.
Do not archive
Mark
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>
>Do you get premier membership for an unintentional extra hole from c-frame dimpling?
What about platinum level if that extra hole was on a fuel tank skin...
>
>Bob #40105
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | emp kit ship times |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
Where in Ohio? We are located on the PA/OH border where I80 crosses.
Dan
40269
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
matronix.rv10@4sythe.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: emp kit ship times
--> RV10-List message posted by: matronix.rv10@4sythe.com
James,
Van's seems to hold pretty true to their estimate of lead time on the
empennage. From order date, it takes 7-8 days to crate, then shipping
will vary depending on your part of the country. I am in Ohio and mine
took about a week to arrive...so overall you're probably looking at two
weeks.
Call Vans and I'm sure they'll be truthful on whether or not they're in
stock.
Kent Forsythe
40338
HS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server.at.matronics.com@matronix.rv10.at.4sythe.
com] On Behalf Of James Ochs
Subject: RV10-List: emp kit ship times
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
Hi All,
Does anyone have an idea of what the current lead time is on the emp.
kit from order to shipment?
do not archive
Thanks,
James
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Fuselage Wire Routing |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
I drilled out some tooling holes in the rear baggage floor bulkhead and put conduit
from there to the holes just outboard of the rear passenger foot well. I
have the photos at home and not with me. Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob
(US SSA)
Subject: RV10-List: Fuselage Wire Routing
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
I finally got a little time in the shop and got the tailcone attached to the main
cabin. How are folks routing cables from the tailcone to the front of the
plane? It looks like some may have to run below the baggage floor and possible
below the rear seat bottoms before transitioning to the side channels. Any
pictures from Randy, Scott or others?
Bob #40105
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | emp kit ship times |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Robert G. Wright" <armywrights@adelphia.net>
I ordered mine at SnF on Thursday, the guys got back to Vans on Tuesday,
mine went to crating on Wednesday, and I'm awaiting the call that it's on
the road...
Rob
40392
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs
Subject: RV10-List: emp kit ship times
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
Hi All,
Does anyone have an idea of what the current lead time is on the emp.
kit from order to shipment?
do not archive
Thanks,
James
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Trutrak and ILs etc. |
Thanks
for the discussion on using a GPS based AP to track ILS. Since I will probably
have an IFR GPS/NAV combo of some sort I can probably go with the less expensive
AP and "pretend" to track the ILS. I like the idea of being able to track NAV/ILS
directly but it seems very pricey to do that.
-Chris L
#40072
do not archive
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Fuselage Wire Routing |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
We made the right side closeout panel in the baggage compartment removeable
with nut plates and plan to run all our wiring through there. The conduit
is also a great way to do it in areas that are closed out. We ran conduit
in the wings for wiring runs with a break in the pipe at the inspection
cover(s).
We are just now starting the wiring, which is a daunting task, especially
doing this type of thing for the first time. We are getting a number of
wiring harnesses for specific equipment, but will do all the connecting and
runs to antennas, lights, etc on our own. Any guidance in this area would
be greatly appreciated. If anybody knows of a website that kind of lays out
the procedure for selecting wire sizes, breaker sizes, bus bar stuff, etc,
that would be perfect.
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob (US
SSA)
Subject: RV10-List: Fuselage Wire Routing
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)"
<bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
I finally got a little time in the shop and got the tailcone attached to the
main cabin. How are folks routing cables from the tailcone to the front of
the plane? It looks like some may have to run below the baggage floor and
possible below the rear seat bottoms before transitioning to the side
channels. Any pictures from Randy, Scott or others?
Bob #40105
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: rv10 quick build |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "DejaVu" <wvu@mail.ameritel.net>
I've had only about 20 hours or so with a partner in 1600hrs total. Things
get interesting real quick if you're not careful, especially when both the
rivet gun and bucking bar are at arms reach and you're squeezing the trigger
with your thumb.
Anh
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: rv10 quick build
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
>
> You got that right. I have only been with out a building partner for about
2 months and it makes a huge difference. Randy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:58 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: rv10 quick build
>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Scott Schmidt"
<sschmidt@ussynthetic.com>
>
> The best thing you can do is have a partner helping you 100% of the
> time. We will have our (slow build) RV-10 flying in two years. We have
> about 6 months left. And I travel with my work a lot. But Randy is
> about right on his time estimates. If I am home on a weekend we both
> will work between 12-15 hours on the weekend and 2-3 days during the
> week. I am planning to be right around 2000 - 2200 hours but that is
> only 1000 shop hours with two people.
>
> I really want to write an article about building with a partner. I have
> worked about 2 or 3 days without a partner and I just get frustrated at
> how slow I go and just quit. It just isn't even worth my time working
> on the plane without having someone there. I think it would be very
> easy to order a quick build kit, have someone help you and be flying in
> less than one year.
>
> Scott Schmidt
> sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
> Folbrecht
> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 5:16 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: rv10 quick build
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht
> <paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com>
>
> 3-4 years (for a slow-build) is exactly what I've been planning on.
>
> And I doubt I'll paint it myself.
>
> --- John Jessen <jjessen@rcn.com> wrote:
> > So, if I have the arithmetic right, and if life were highly regulated,
> and
> > one could work 15 hours per week, 48 weeks a year, you'd be done with
> the
> > quick build in 2.36 years. Slow build 3.05 years. Ouch. John
>
>
> ---
>
>
---
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Wire Routing |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "DejaVu" <wvu@mail.ameritel.net>
They give you one hole on each side at the bulkhead where the rear seat
backs are. I enlarged those and also drilled two extra holes in the O/B
most ribs under the rear seats since there are no lightening holes in those.
I can then run two conduits on each side starting from the tailcone, under
the baggage area, one conduit goes through the hole that they give you and
up to the side channel, the other goes under the rear seat then through the
extra hole in the rear seat rib and up the side channel. Van's OK'ed all of
course. They also suggested to route wires in the the tunnel and use Adel
clamps every so often but I didn't take this route. I also ran one conduit
each from under the pilot and copilot seats, under the floor panels, and up
the lower engine mounting bolt access covers.
Anh
#141
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuselage Wire Routing
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
>
> I drilled out some tooling holes in the rear baggage floor bulkhead and
put conduit from there to the holes just outboard of the rear passenger foot
well. I have the photos at home and not with me. Randy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob
> (US SSA)
> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 11:52 AM
> To: RV-10 List (E-mail)
> Subject: RV10-List: Fuselage Wire Routing
>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)"
<bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>
> I finally got a little time in the shop and got the tailcone attached to
the main cabin. How are folks routing cables from the tailcone to the front
of the plane? It looks like some may have to run below the baggage floor
and possible below the rear seat bottoms before transitioning to the side
channels. Any pictures from Randy, Scott or others?
>
> Bob #40105
>
>
> ---
>
>
---
Message 31
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| Subject: | Switching to a 7A |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht <paul.folbrecht@veribox.net>
Well, folks, I'm afraid I have some terrible news: I'm not going to
build an RV-10. At least, not now. I'm going to build an RV-7A
instead, quickbuild. My order (I had ordered and prepaid -10 tail &
wing kits) has been switched at Van's - they didn't charge me any fee
at all.
Ok, on to the long-winded "why". It is mainly an economic decision,
together with me doing some hard & serious analysis of the flying I'm
likely to be doing for the next 10+ years. I believe that the majority
of that flying, the solid majority, will be with 0..1 pax. A four
seater would be wonderful in a perfect world (a Citation X would be
even better, I guess), but I don't really need it.
Economics: 1st is initial cost. While I can afford the $115K I would
likely have into the 10, and planned to build it with no financing, I
was never quite sure that I wanted to invest that much cash in to what
I see as a "luxury" item. I can build a *quickbuild* 7A with
equivalent panel for an easy $25K less than the slow-build 10 I
planned: $9K savings on the kit, $12K+ on the engine, and $4K+ on the
prop (I will do metal fixed pitch on the 7. FP is not really an option
on the 10). I will also have a completed airplane in probably not much
more than half the time a slow-build 10 would take.
The main part of the economics question, though, is operating cost. I
know I can easily cruise at 6 gph with a FI 360, with a 540 sucking at
least 50% more fuel best-case throttled back. I don't really want to
pay that when I don't have those rear seats filled. Add about 50% more
for the engine-overhaul fund as well and these are substantial figures
when flying 200+ hours/year. How much these figures mean is a personal
thing, obviously.
As to the type of flying, I figure that even if I do marry a girl who
loves to fly and have kids that like flying, those full-family trips
are still going to be rare. As in once a month or less rare. For
that, I can rent. I'm getting checked-out right now in a 172RG now
with a Garmin 430 which is not a shabby bird at all, for a spam-can,
IMHO. 130 knots isn't so bad.
I like to fly 2-3 times/week. I like to do the local fly-ins and
breakfast trips and the like, as well as just buzzing around, and
practicing approaches too (nobody told me keeping IFR current is the
challenging part of the rating). For all of this stuff, I'm going to
be flying with 1 pax or by myself, at least most of the time, 4 seats
or no.
For you guys that are building 10s for all the right reasons, awesome.
I may very well do it some day myself.. just not now. I do have a
feeling that this building thing is going to get its hooks in me, and
I'm going to want to do another one before I croak. I'm in my early
30s now and will have plenty of time.
I am going to continue to subscribe to this list because you guys are
awesome - there are so many very knowledgeable people here, and a great
deal of what's discussed is applicable to any RV. Sides, an RV is an
RV, and we're all brothers, right?!
Later,
~Paul
Message 32
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| Subject: | rv10 quick build |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "McGANN, Ron" <ron.mcgann@baesystems.com>
I think Scott is spot on. I built the tail kit solo - with the exception of
the HS nose ribs where I had some help. Rivetting solo is tough - the bar
slipped off one of the first rivets I set on the VS and left an impressive
birth mark. But after some practice, I managed to finish off the tail
without any more trauma. However, it took me a looooong time. I am now
well into the wings, and after getting some help with the wing skins,
particularly the leading edges, I am reluctant to even try it solo. With
two people, the rivetting goes sweetly and (IMHO) dramatically reduces the
time required.
Ron
Tanks
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Subject: RE: RV10-List: rv10 quick build
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Scott Schmidt" <sschmidt@ussynthetic.com>
The best thing you can do is have a partner helping you 100% of the
time. We will have our (slow build) RV-10 flying in two years. We have
about 6 months left. And I travel with my work a lot. But Randy is
about right on his time estimates. If I am home on a weekend we both
will work between 12-15 hours on the weekend and 2-3 days during the
week. I am planning to be right around 2000 - 2200 hours but that is
only 1000 shop hours with two people.
I really want to write an article about building with a partner. I have
worked about 2 or 3 days without a partner and I just get frustrated at
how slow I go and just quit. It just isn't even worth my time working
on the plane without having someone there. I think it would be very
easy to order a quick build kit, have someone help you and be flying in
less than one year.
Scott Schmidt
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Folbrecht
Subject: RE: RV10-List: rv10 quick build
--> RV10-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht
<paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com>
3-4 years (for a slow-build) is exactly what I've been planning on.
And I doubt I'll paint it myself.
--- John Jessen <jjessen@rcn.com> wrote:
> So, if I have the arithmetic right, and if life were highly regulated,
and
> one could work 15 hours per week, 48 weeks a year, you'd be done with
the
> quick build in 2.36 years. Slow build 3.05 years. Ouch. John
Message 33
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| Subject: | Countersinking Tank skins |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "McGANN, Ron" <ron.mcgann@baesystems.com>
Spent some time yesterday countersinking the tank skin to the baffle. All
went well. Disassembled the tank and started deburring ALL holes per
instructions - including the holes just countersunk. Noticed after
deburring the bottom row of skin to baffle holes that the skin holes are
enlarged during deburring. Anyone else experience this? For anyone not yet
at this stage, I would recommend against deburring countersunk skin holes.
Just give them a buff with some scothbright. I think there is just enough
material for the rivet head to grip to, and combined with the added strength
of the proseal at the baffle joint I hope the joint should be strong enough.
Has anyone else made this mistake and had to use 1/8" rivets?
cheers,
Ron
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