Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:03 AM - Re: WTB: (Mani Ravee)
2. 04:16 AM - Re: Quickbuild Purchase Question (Mani Ravee)
3. 05:24 AM - Re: Quickbuild Purchase Question (Wayne Edgerton)
4. 07:17 AM - Re: WTB: (Rick)
5. 07:20 AM - Re: Pneumatic rivet squeezers (Rick)
6. 07:27 AM - Re: WTB: (Rick)
7. 07:40 AM - Re: Quickbuild Purchase Question ()
8. 07:42 AM - Re: Quickbuild Purchase Question (Rick)
9. 07:55 AM - Re: WTB: (Darton Steve)
10. 09:11 AM - Re: WTB: (Mani Ravee)
11. 09:24 AM - Re: WTB: (Rick)
12. 10:42 AM - Oops. Grrr. ;) (James Ochs)
13. 10:49 AM - Re: Quickbuild Purchase Question (John Jessen)
14. 10:55 AM - Re: WTB: (Rene Felker)
15. 11:00 AM - Re: WTB: (Rene Felker)
16. 11:03 AM - Re: WTB: (Larry)
17. 11:08 AM - Re: Oops. Grrr. ;) (Randy DeBauw)
18. 11:08 AM - Re: WTB: (James Ochs)
19. 11:25 AM - Re: Oops. Grrr. ;) (James Ochs)
20. 11:49 AM - Re: WTB: (matronix.rv10@4sythe.com)
21. 12:07 PM - Mogas warning (James Ochs)
22. 12:07 PM - Re: Oops. Grrr. ;) (Randy DeBauw)
23. 12:53 PM - Re: WTB: (Jeff Carpenter)
24. 12:53 PM - Re: Oops. Grrr. ;) (PJ Seipel)
25. 12:53 PM - Re: Oops. Grrr. ;) (Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr))
26. 12:54 PM - Re: WTB: (John Jessen)
27. 01:27 PM - Re: WTB: (Rene Felker)
28. 01:50 PM - Re: WTB: (Darton Steve)
29. 01:54 PM - Re: Oops. Grrr. ;) (rv10@tpg.com.au)
30. 01:54 PM - Re: WTB: (Darton Steve)
31. 02:12 PM - Re: WTB: (Carlos Hernandez)
32. 02:34 PM - Re: WTB: (Jeff Carpenter)
33. 02:56 PM - Re: Oops. Grrr. ;) (Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr))
34. 03:00 PM - Re: Quickbuild Purchase Question (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com)
35. 03:03 PM - Re: WTB: (Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr))
36. 03:49 PM - ELTs (David McNeill)
37. 03:52 PM - deburring video (Darton Steve)
38. 03:54 PM - Re: Quickbuild Purchase Question (Tim Olson)
39. 05:07 PM - Re: Quickbuild Purchase Question (John W. Cox)
40. 05:17 PM - Re: WTB: (John W. Cox)
41. 05:30 PM - Re: Quickbuild Purchase Question (John W. Cox)
42. 06:34 PM - Re: Oops. Grrr. ;) (PJ Seipel)
43. 06:38 PM - Re: WTB: (Mark Grieve)
44. 06:43 PM - Re: Quickbuild Purchase Question (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
45. 06:44 PM - Re: Quickbuild Purchase Question (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
46. 06:48 PM - Re: Quickbuild Purchase Question (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
47. 07:50 PM - Re: Pneumatic rivet squeezers (Robert G. Wright)
48. 10:17 PM - Re: ELTs (NYTerminat@aol.com)
Message 1
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Mani Ravee" <maniravee@sbcglobal.net>
For those interested, you can get the bigger versions of the c yoke,
longeron yoke and no hole yoke from places like Clear Tools and Plane tools,
and these will work well with the adjustable set from Avery. I use the
adjustable set in mine with all the yokes and works fine. Yes the taller
squeezer set is very useful then. Also, for dimpling, I found the regular
tabletop dimpler from Avery to work very well - love to go whack on it. Have
not used the DDRT so. But in reality, the time spent on dimpling is not all
that much. Just my thoughts.
Mani
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: WTB:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Heya Bill,
What it means is that the flat set....(the flat dime-sized squeezer set)
needs to be taller, so the piston (plunger) doesn't have to extend
quite so far to do the squeeze, since the jaws are so far apart on
the yoke. It loses its "oompf" at the end of the stroke, so by getting
a taller flat set (like maybe have a few that are 1/8", 1/4" and 3/8"
(possibly even 1/2")) tall, so that you can always get the full force
out of the squeezer.
I had the standard set with the tool kit, then picked up more later.
Cleaveland and Avery both have all sorts of these things.
The Yard Store at http://www.yardstore.com is a good place for picking
up some of the extras at a pretty low price. Probably want a 2nd
3/32" dimple die set too, 'cuz you'll be really mad the day yours
breaks it's nose off.
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Current project: Fuselage
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Bill and Tami Britton wrote:
> I've got my pneumatic squeezer bought. Now I need a 2.5" longeron yoke,
> 4" pneumatic yoke, quick change pins and the adjustable set holder.
> Also, what does it mean to use a 1/2" long flat set with the longeron
> yoke (evidently if you don't you'll overextend the plunger)???
>
> Thanks,
> Bill Britton
> RV-10 Emp #40137
Message 2
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| Subject: | Quickbuild Purchase Question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Mani Ravee" <maniravee@sbcglobal.net>
Well, I have ordered the SB wing kit. Will go with QB fuse. My reasoning is
that there is more to be customized in the building of the wings. Wires,
conduits, HIDs, AOA, etc, etc. Plus I will be able to epoxy (AKZO) the
material. I find that in the 30 yr ole Cessnas, the corrosion usually is
apparent and more in the wings than anywhere else. My delivery date is in
August for the slow build wings.
Mani
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Denk
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>
>I'm thinking of ordering one or the other quick builds soon, either the
>wing
>or fuselage. I'm trying to save both time and money, so thought I'd
>compromise. Any opinions as to which would be "easier" to build from
>pieces
>and which would be best bought as a quick build? My apologies if this has
>all been hashed out before, but thought since many have now been down this
>road there might be new thoughts.
>
>John Jessen
> Empcone 1%
For me, it's QB wings and slowbuild fuse. The fuse is interesting to build,
and seldom gets boring. The wings, well, they ARE boring! Lot's of
repetition and proseal too. I've already proved my mettle (or is it
"metal"?) by building a slowbuild, non-matched hole RV8 so I'll let the
Phillippine folks do those big ole wing planks for me this time.
To each his own, but this just makes the most sense for me this time around.
For the next RV (RV3), I'll de-evolve back to raw bauxite and bailing wire
just for nostalgia's sake!
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51 waitin' in the wings....for the wings.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Quickbuild Purchase Question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Wayne Edgerton" <weeav8ter@grandecom.net>
Being the naive person that I am, what is KABONG?
----- Original Message -----
From: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
>
> Don't forget the duct tape... KABONG 8*)
> Do Not Archive
>
> From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 4:27 PM
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
>
>
>> I've already proved my mettle (or is it "metal"?) by building a
>> slowbuild, non-matched hole RV8 so I'll let the Phillippine folks do
>> those big ole wing planks for me this time.
>>
>> To each his own, but this just makes the most sense for me this time
>> around. For the next RV (RV3), I'll de-evolve back to raw bauxite and
>> bailing wire just for nostalgia's sake!
>>
>> Brian Denk
>> RV8 N94BD
>> RV10 '51 waitin' in the wings....for the wings.
>
>
>
Message 4
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
Mani,
Not much time dimpling? he he he....have you passed the tail cone yet? Cause there
are these big ole wing skins waiting for you after you get done dimpling the
tailcone.. ;) All in jest of course...
Rick S.
40185
Wings
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic rivet squeezers |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
They will make an extra hole in ANY part....just have to pay attention while your
doing it, or as Brian says..."your head in the game"
Rick S.
40185
Wings
Message 6
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DNA: do not archive
Its-Bogus: do not forward to list
--- MIME Errors ---
A message with no text/plain section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using plaintext formatting.
NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the
message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus
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as possible.
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Quickbuild Purchase Question |
I had no choice as in France, QB are not allowed BUT if I had a choice, I
would QB the wing and slow build the fuse. The wing is boring and standard -
there is not much one can do to customize it. The fuse on the other hand can
incorporate personal touches such as platenuts for floors, sound proofing,
battery fixture...
Michle
RV8 - just starting on the fuselage, at last.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 10:09 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
>
> I'm thinking of ordering one or the other quick builds soon, either the
> wing
> or fuselage. I'm trying to save both time and money, so thought I'd
> compromise. Any opinions as to which would be "easier" to build from
> pieces
> and which would be best bought as a quick build? My apologies if this has
> all been hashed out before, but thought since many have now been down this
> road there might be new thoughts.
>
> John Jessen
> Empcone 1%
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Quickbuild Purchase Question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
I'll second the tiresome or at times boring part of the wings...finish a part...then
do it again. Anyone noticed that the right wing parts come out a tad better
than the left wing?...I guess practice makes perfect. I must admit though
that finishing the tanks really felt good!!
Rick S.
40185
Flaps
Message 9
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|
s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=Q+cy42foLXSNUgH2owh4vaLXkGNEHemURfGAYgZKZDoA55mkQLygqxC47awqNcc81zIm+2YzhZJXvTEwtetDkFC0kGO6wj8jDn5nB8PPqwyFhIfLnMIcrweuYfUnDb0+GrqbdTTwZTym273n/tG26KXiVP77IyTxYYQyH8iiFbY=
;
--> RV10-List message posted by: Darton Steve <sfdarton@yahoo.com>
Mani,
Can you give me a link or Phone # for clear tools and
plane tools?
Steve 40212
--- Mani Ravee <maniravee@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Mani Ravee"
> <maniravee@sbcglobal.net>
>
> For those interested, you can get the bigger
> versions of the c yoke,
> longeron yoke and no hole yoke from places like
> Clear Tools and Plane tools,
> and these will work well with the adjustable set
> from Avery. I use the
> adjustable set in mine with all the yokes and works
> fine. Yes the taller
> squeezer set is very useful then. Also, for
> dimpling, I found the regular
> tabletop dimpler from Avery to work very well - love
> to go whack on it. Have
> not used the DDRT so. But in reality, the time spent
> on dimpling is not all
> that much. Just my thoughts.
>
> Mani
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 8:53 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: WTB:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson
> <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> Heya Bill,
>
> What it means is that the flat set....(the flat
> dime-sized squeezer set)
> needs to be taller, so the piston (plunger) doesn't
> have to extend
> quite so far to do the squeeze, since the jaws are
> so far apart on
> the yoke. It loses its "oompf" at the end of the
> stroke, so by getting
> a taller flat set (like maybe have a few that are
> 1/8", 1/4" and 3/8"
> (possibly even 1/2")) tall, so that you can always
> get the full force
> out of the squeezer.
>
> I had the standard set with the tool kit, then
> picked up more later.
> Cleaveland and Avery both have all sorts of these
> things.
> The Yard Store at http://www.yardstore.com is a good
> place for picking
> up some of the extras at a pretty low price.
> Probably want a 2nd
> 3/32" dimple die set too, 'cuz you'll be really mad
> the day yours
> breaks it's nose off.
>
> Tim
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
> Current project: Fuselage
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> Bill and Tami Britton wrote:
> > I've got my pneumatic squeezer bought. Now I need
> a 2.5" longeron yoke,
> > 4" pneumatic yoke, quick change pins and the
> adjustable set holder.
> > Also, what does it mean to use a 1/2" long flat
> set with the longeron
> > yoke (evidently if you don't you'll overextend the
> plunger)???
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Bill Britton
> > RV-10 Emp #40137
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
Message 10
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Actually, I did not mind the dimpling at all. Its the tedious deburring of the
holes which get me. I really hate that.
Mani
Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net> wrote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick
Mani,
Not much time dimpling? he he he....have you passed the tail cone yet? Cause there
are these big ole wing skins waiting for you after you get done dimpling the
tailcone.. ;) All in jest of course...
Rick S.
40185
Wings
Message 11
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DNA: do not archive
Its-Bogus: do not forward to list
--- MIME Errors ---
A message with no text/plain section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using plaintext formatting.
NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the
message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus
WAS NOT forwarded on to the List. The poster should be
informed of the potential problem with their system as soon
as possible.
--- MIME Errors ---
Message 12
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--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
Hi all,
Well, moving right along, I got all my corrosion protection done on the
VS parts and started riveting last night. Went great, and being the
first time I had been using 1/8" rivets I grabbed my trusty rivet gauge
to make sure my shop heads were right. Well, it helps if you use the #4
gauge instead of the #6 gauge.
So now my question is this... the rivets I completed last night are the
AN426AD4-7 rivets along the rear spar that hold the rear spar doubler to
to the rear spar. I actually ran out of them as apparently they didn't
include enough with my kit, so I havent done the ones that attach the
lower rudder hinge to the spar. The shop heads should be 3/16" but
since I'm an idiot I drove them to 1/4". It doesn't seem like this is a
high load area ( I would think most of the stress is on the hinge
brackets and the bolts that attach the VS to the fuse, and not the
rivets that hold the doubler and stiffeners to the spar - please correct
me if I'm wrong ;) but then again, I'm not an ME so what do I know? Do
I need to drill out all of them or are they ok as long as I get the rest
of the rivets right? What I am really afraid of is that drilling out
rivets seems to invariably create more problems...
Thanks,
James
#40400.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Quickbuild Purchase Question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
Thanks, everyone, for helping me on this task. I am a little more confused
than before, but that's the beauty of getting everyone's opinion. Here's
what I have so far, along with questions.
In favor of slow wing:
You get to add wiring, do other modifications that maybe you couldn't with
the QB. Downside is that you get to do repetitious work and have to deal
with the tanks. Questions: Does going with QB wings really eliminate being
able to put wiring in that you'd like to have for antennae, HID lights,
flasher lights, heated pitot, AOA, etc? Is the ability to add edge lighting
in the wing taken away by going with the QB? Also, can you not have (and
why would you?) capacitance fuel sensors with the QB?
In favor of the slow fuselage:
You don't get as bored as with the wings, you don't have to deal with the
tanks, you can do modifications that you wouldn't be able to do with the QB,
such as battery placement, storage areas, etc. Questions: What are folks
averaging in hours to put together the slow build fuselage? Is it
significantly greater than for the wings? Are there jigs or special tools
required, or is it just as "straight forward" as doing the Empcone? What
modifications are people doing that really require you to go the Slow Build
route?
I figure that the answers here will help out not only myself, but a few
others who have purchased the Empcone, but who are wondering what build
strategy to adopt next.
Thanks in advance
John Jessen
-> Empcone 1%
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
I'll second the tiresome or at times boring part of the wings...finish a
part...then do it again. Anyone noticed that the right wing parts come out a
tad better than the left wing?...I guess practice makes perfect. I must
admit though that finishing the tanks really felt good!!
Rick S.
40185
Flaps
Message 14
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I agree, I will swap dimpling for debur any day....of course I am just
starting on my wings.
Rene'
N423CF
40322
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mani Ravee
Subject: RE: RV10-List: WTB:
Actually, I did not mind the dimpling at all. Its the tedious deburring of
the holes which get me. I really hate that.
Mani
Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net> wrote:
Message 15
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick
OK, what is a longeron yoke?
Rene'
N423CF
40322
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Subject: Re: RV10-List: WTB:
Bill,
As I near completion of the wings I found these yokes all had a place at
some point of the build so far. The quick change pins are cheap and really
came in handy as I swapped yokes about four times during the ailerons and
aileron/flap braces. The dimple die set that came with my squeezer was very
complete and had all the dies to include long, short, small diameter,
universal, screws everything. The longeron yoke is by far the most used on
my project followed by the standard then the no hole. The no hole gets right
into the ribs on the elevator, rudder, ailerons and flaps. It also allowed
me to squeeze the entire aft row of rivets on the wing skins. The down side
is they are not cheap.
Rick
to
and much
Message 16
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
Clear Air <http://www.clearairtools.com/home/>
Plane Tools <http://www.planetools.com/>
Darton Steve wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: Darton Steve <sfdarton@yahoo.com>
>
>Mani,
>Can you give me a link or Phone # for clear tools and
>plane tools?
>Steve 40212
>--- Mani Ravee <maniravee@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>>--> RV10-List message posted by: "Mani Ravee"
>><maniravee@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>>For those interested, you can get the bigger
>>versions of the c yoke,
>>longeron yoke and no hole yoke from places like
>>Clear Tools and Plane tools,
>>and these will work well with the adjustable set
>>from Avery. I use the
>>adjustable set in mine with all the yokes and works
>>fine. Yes the taller
>>squeezer set is very useful then. Also, for
>>dimpling, I found the regular
>>tabletop dimpler from Avery to work very well - love
>>to go whack on it. Have
>>not used the DDRT so. But in reality, the time spent
>>on dimpling is not all
>>that much. Just my thoughts.
>>
>>Mani
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On
>>Behalf Of Tim Olson
>>Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 8:53 PM
>>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: RV10-List: WTB:
>>
>>--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson
>><Tim@MyRV10.com>
>>
>>Heya Bill,
>>
>>What it means is that the flat set....(the flat
>>dime-sized squeezer set)
>>needs to be taller, so the piston (plunger) doesn't
>>have to extend
>>quite so far to do the squeeze, since the jaws are
>>so far apart on
>>the yoke. It loses its "oompf" at the end of the
>>stroke, so by getting
>>a taller flat set (like maybe have a few that are
>>1/8", 1/4" and 3/8"
>>(possibly even 1/2")) tall, so that you can always
>>get the full force
>>out of the squeezer.
>>
>>I had the standard set with the tool kit, then
>>picked up more later.
>>Cleaveland and Avery both have all sorts of these
>>things.
>>The Yard Store at http://www.yardstore.com is a good
>>place for picking
>>up some of the extras at a pretty low price.
>>Probably want a 2nd
>>3/32" dimple die set too, 'cuz you'll be really mad
>>the day yours
>>breaks it's nose off.
>>
>>Tim
>>
>>Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>>Current project: Fuselage
>>
>>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>
>>
>>Bill and Tami Britton wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I've got my pneumatic squeezer bought. Now I need
>>>
>>>
>>a 2.5" longeron yoke,
>>
>>
>>>4" pneumatic yoke, quick change pins and the
>>>
>>>
>>adjustable set holder.
>>
>>
>>>Also, what does it mean to use a 1/2" long flat
>>>
>>>
>>set with the longeron
>>
>>
>>>yoke (evidently if you don't you'll overextend the
>>>
>>>
>>plunger)???
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Bill Britton
>>>RV-10 Emp #40137
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>browse
>>Subscriptions page,
>>FAQ,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
James, do you have the rivet gauges with a hole on one end and a notch in the other?
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of James Ochs
Subject: RV10-List: Oops. Grrr. ;)
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
Hi all,
Well, moving right along, I got all my corrosion protection done on the
VS parts and started riveting last night. Went great, and being the
first time I had been using 1/8" rivets I grabbed my trusty rivet gauge
to make sure my shop heads were right. Well, it helps if you use the #4
gauge instead of the #6 gauge.
So now my question is this... the rivets I completed last night are the
AN426AD4-7 rivets along the rear spar that hold the rear spar doubler to
to the rear spar. I actually ran out of them as apparently they didn't
include enough with my kit, so I havent done the ones that attach the
lower rudder hinge to the spar. The shop heads should be 3/16" but
since I'm an idiot I drove them to 1/4". It doesn't seem like this is a
high load area ( I would think most of the stress is on the hinge
brackets and the bolts that attach the VS to the fuse, and not the
rivets that hold the doubler and stiffeners to the spar - please correct
me if I'm wrong ;) but then again, I'm not an ME so what do I know? Do
I need to drill out all of them or are they ok as long as I get the rest
of the rivets right? What I am really afraid of is that drilling out
rivets seems to invariably create more problems...
Thanks,
James
#40400.
Message 18
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|
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
I just can't say enough about the cogsdill deburring bits. For me,
deburring and dimpling are now about the same level of annoyance, and
deburring takes about the same amount of time as dimpling does with
those bits, and the holes actually come out cleaner on the first try
than they do with the hand deburring tool. The drawback is that they are
expensive ;)
Now, if I only had a magic wand scotchbrite / prep / cleaning tool!
James
Rene Felker wrote:
> I agree, I will swap dimpling for debur any day..of course I am just
> starting on my wings.
>
> Rene'
>
> N423CF
>
> 40322
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Mani Ravee
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:11 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: WTB:
>
> Actually, I did not mind the dimpling at all. Its the tedious
> deburring of the holes which get me. I really hate that.
>
> Mani
>
> */Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>/* wrote:
>
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: Oops. Grrr. ;) |
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
Yes, I just grabbed the wrong one because somewhere i got the number six
stuck in my head instead of 4 which is the size rivet... I have no idea
why I did that. Vapor lock in the brain or something ;)
James
Randy DeBauw wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
>
>James, do you have the rivet gauges with a hole on one end and a notch in the
other? Randy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of James Ochs
>Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:10 AM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: Oops. Grrr. ;)
>
>
>--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
>
>Hi all,
>
>Well, moving right along, I got all my corrosion protection done on the
>VS parts and started riveting last night. Went great, and being the
>first time I had been using 1/8" rivets I grabbed my trusty rivet gauge
>to make sure my shop heads were right. Well, it helps if you use the #4
>gauge instead of the #6 gauge.
>
>So now my question is this... the rivets I completed last night are the
>AN426AD4-7 rivets along the rear spar that hold the rear spar doubler to
>to the rear spar. I actually ran out of them as apparently they didn't
>include enough with my kit, so I havent done the ones that attach the
>lower rudder hinge to the spar. The shop heads should be 3/16" but
>since I'm an idiot I drove them to 1/4". It doesn't seem like this is a
>high load area ( I would think most of the stress is on the hinge
>brackets and the bolts that attach the VS to the fuse, and not the
>rivets that hold the doubler and stiffeners to the spar - please correct
>me if I'm wrong ;) but then again, I'm not an ME so what do I know? Do
>I need to drill out all of them or are they ok as long as I get the rest
>of the rivets right? What I am really afraid of is that drilling out
>rivets seems to invariably create more problems...
>
>Thanks,
>James
>#40400.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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|
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick
A longeron yoke is a somewhat squared off yoke that at the top, comes
back toward the plunger so it will reach around and still be able to
squeeze without damaging or getting caught on any other parts. By far,
I use this yoke the most. Worth it's weight in gasoline... :-)
Kent
Elevators
40338
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server.at.matronics.com@matronix.rv10.at.4sythe.
com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker
Subject: RE: RV10-List: WTB:
OK, what is a longeron yoke?
Rene'
N423CF
40322
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Subject: Re: RV10-List: WTB:
Bill,
As I near completion of the wings I found these yokes all had a place at
some point of the build so far. The quick change pins are cheap and
really came in handy as I swapped yokes about four times during the
ailerons and aileron/flap braces. The dimple die set that came with my
squeezer was very complete and had all the dies to include long, short,
small diameter, universal, screws everything. The longeron yoke is by
far the most used on my project followed by the standard then the no
hole. The no hole gets right into the ribs on the elevator, rudder,
ailerons and flaps. It also allowed me to squeeze the entire aft row of
rivets on the wing skins. The down side is they are not cheap.
Rick
Message 21
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|
Just came across this a few minutes ago, Just an FYI:
http://planenews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=528
*Marathon Oil Warns Pilots Using Auto Gas in West Virginia.*
Safety and Warnings
<http://planenews.com/modules.php?name=News&new_topic=52>Marathon
Ashland Petroleum officials are warning pilots in West Virginia, and
parts of Ohio and Kentucky, who use 87 or 89 octane auto fuel in their
aircraft that the company has detected the presence of foreign materials
in some of that fuel. Pilots using auto fuel in airplanes in those areas
are asked to call 800-892-3418.
Message 22
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
My guess is that you will want to drill those out. Get use to it. There will be
more. Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of James Ochs
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oops. Grrr. ;)
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
Yes, I just grabbed the wrong one because somewhere i got the number six
stuck in my head instead of 4 which is the size rivet... I have no idea
why I did that. Vapor lock in the brain or something ;)
James
Randy DeBauw wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
>
>James, do you have the rivet gauges with a hole on one end and a notch in the
other? Randy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of James Ochs
>Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:10 AM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: Oops. Grrr. ;)
>
>
>--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
>
>Hi all,
>
>Well, moving right along, I got all my corrosion protection done on the
>VS parts and started riveting last night. Went great, and being the
>first time I had been using 1/8" rivets I grabbed my trusty rivet gauge
>to make sure my shop heads were right. Well, it helps if you use the #4
>gauge instead of the #6 gauge.
>
>So now my question is this... the rivets I completed last night are the
>AN426AD4-7 rivets along the rear spar that hold the rear spar doubler to
>to the rear spar. I actually ran out of them as apparently they didn't
>include enough with my kit, so I havent done the ones that attach the
>lower rudder hinge to the spar. The shop heads should be 3/16" but
>since I'm an idiot I drove them to 1/4". It doesn't seem like this is a
>high load area ( I would think most of the stress is on the hinge
>brackets and the bolts that attach the VS to the fuse, and not the
>rivets that hold the doubler and stiffeners to the spar - please correct
>me if I'm wrong ;) but then again, I'm not an ME so what do I know? Do
>I need to drill out all of them or are they ok as long as I get the rest
>of the rivets right? What I am really afraid of is that drilling out
>rivets seems to invariably create more problems...
>
>Thanks,
>James
>#40400.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 23
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|
Deburring is much more pleasant with the Cogsdill Burraway tool.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On May 10, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Rene Felker wrote:
> I agree, I will swap dimpling for debur any day=85=85..of course I am
> just starting on my wings.
>
>
> Rene'
>
> N423CF
>
> 40322
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mani Ravee
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:11 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: WTB:
>
>
> Actually, I did not mind the dimpling at all. Its the tedious
> deburring of the holes which get me. I really hate that.
>
> Mani
>
> Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: Oops. Grrr. ;) |
--> RV10-List message posted by: PJ Seipel <seipel@seznam.cz>
My tech counselor's view was that it is better to over drive the rivets
than to under drive them. Something about an over driven rivet still
retains 80% of its strength. Maybe someone else here has more concrete
info or a reference you can check.
PJ
40032
James Ochs wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Well, moving right along, I got all my corrosion protection done on
> the VS parts and started riveting last night. Went great, and being
> the first time I had been using 1/8" rivets I grabbed my trusty rivet
> gauge to make sure my shop heads were right. Well, it helps if you
> use the #4 gauge instead of the #6 gauge.
>
> So now my question is this... the rivets I completed last night are
> the AN426AD4-7 rivets along the rear spar that hold the rear spar
> doubler to to the rear spar. I actually ran out of them as apparently
> they didn't include enough with my kit, so I havent done the ones that
> attach the lower rudder hinge to the spar. The shop heads should be
> 3/16" but since I'm an idiot I drove them to 1/4". It doesn't seem
> like this is a high load area ( I would think most of the stress is on
> the hinge brackets and the bolts that attach the VS to the fuse, and
> not the rivets that hold the doubler and stiffeners to the spar -
> please correct me if I'm wrong ;) but then again, I'm not an ME so
> what do I know? Do I need to drill out all of them or are they ok as
> long as I get the rest of the rivets right? What I am really afraid
> of is that drilling out rivets seems to invariably create more
> problems...
>
> Thanks,
> James
> #40400.
>
>
Message 25
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|
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" <nikolaos.napoli@ngc.com>
James,
I would do two things:
1-Since there appear to be a lot of rivets involved I would get Vans opinion on
it.
2-I would replace at least some of the rivets, maybe every third rivet, so that
you have at least some with a good tail.
Niko
40188
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of James Ochs
Subject: RV10-List: Oops. Grrr. ;)
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
Hi all,
Well, moving right along, I got all my corrosion protection done on the
VS parts and started riveting last night. Went great, and being the
first time I had been using 1/8" rivets I grabbed my trusty rivet gauge
to make sure my shop heads were right. Well, it helps if you use the #4
gauge instead of the #6 gauge.
So now my question is this... the rivets I completed last night are the
AN426AD4-7 rivets along the rear spar that hold the rear spar doubler to
to the rear spar. I actually ran out of them as apparently they didn't
include enough with my kit, so I havent done the ones that attach the
lower rudder hinge to the spar. The shop heads should be 3/16" but
since I'm an idiot I drove them to 1/4". It doesn't seem like this is a
high load area ( I would think most of the stress is on the hinge
brackets and the bolts that attach the VS to the fuse, and not the
rivets that hold the doubler and stiffeners to the spar - please correct
me if I'm wrong ;) but then again, I'm not an ME so what do I know? Do
I need to drill out all of them or are they ok as long as I get the rest
of the rivets right? What I am really afraid of is that drilling out
rivets seems to invariably create more problems...
Thanks,
James
#40400.
Message 26
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|
I suppose you can get these at Avery's and the usual other places? Any good
pricing out there?
John Jessen
-> Empcone 1% (40328)
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
matronix.rv10@4sythe.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: WTB:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick
A longeron yoke is a somewhat squared off yoke that at the top, comes back
toward the plunger so it will reach around and still be able to squeeze
without damaging or getting caught on any other parts. By far, I use this
yoke the most. Worth it's weight in gasoline. :-)
Kent
Elevators
40338
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server.at.matronics.com@matronix.rv10.at.4sythe.com]
On Behalf Of Rene Felker
Subject: RE: RV10-List: WTB:
OK, what is a longeron yoke?
Rene'
N423CF
40322
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Subject: Re: RV10-List: WTB:
Bill,
As I near completion of the wings I found these yokes all had a place at
some point of the build so far. The quick change pins are cheap and really
came in handy as I swapped yokes about four times during the ailerons and
aileron/flap braces. The dimple die set that came with my squeezer was very
complete and had all the dies to include long, short, small diameter,
universal, screws everything. The longeron yoke is by far the most used on
my project followed by the standard then the no hole. The no hole gets right
into the ribs on the elevator, rudder, ailerons and flaps. It also allowed
me to squeeze the entire aft row of rivets on the wing skins. The down side
is they are not cheap.
Rick
==================================== ====================================
Message 27
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|
Where did you get your Burraway tool?
Rene'
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
Subject: Re: RV10-List: WTB:
Deburring is much more pleasant with the Cogsdill Burraway tool.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On May 10, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Rene Felker wrote:
I agree, I will swap dimpling for debur any day....of course I am just
starting on my wings.
Rene'
N423CF
40322
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mani Ravee
Subject: RE: RV10-List: WTB:
Actually, I did not mind the dimpling at all. Its the tedious deburring of
the holes which get me. I really hate that.
Mani
Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net> wrote:
Message 28
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|
s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=RBdRK/jbr97WZvTXIOwt+ejY6KJqaCuMiJreNQRwI4do/W2G79IGYYDNab8m4KvXz4nawxdtZZkxqLWEuY/kmTaXxFshcGExCqGUO8rgAF2dB7Hgb3TrqTnW3psubaPGJOTK22wDH7d2ghOkkC8iGrpGuCRzzLCljKAAsVcTM0M=
;
--> RV10-List message posted by: Darton Steve <sfdarton@yahoo.com>
Try Brown tools
http://www.browntool.com/productselect.asp?ProductID=718
Steve 40212
--- John Jessen <jjessen@rcn.com> wrote:
> I suppose you can get these at Avery's and the usual
> other places? Any good
> pricing out there?
>
> John Jessen
> -> Empcone 1% (40328)
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of
> matronix.rv10@4sythe.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:48 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: WTB:
>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick
>
>
>
> A longeron yoke is a somewhat squared off yoke that
> at the top, comes back
> toward the plunger so it will reach around and still
> be able to squeeze
> without damaging or getting caught on any other
> parts. By far, I use this
> yoke the most. Worth it's weight in gasoline. :-)
>
>
>
> Kent
>
> Elevators
>
> 40338
>
>
> _____
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server.at.matronics.com@matronix.rv10.at.4sythe.com]
> On Behalf Of Rene Felker
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 2:03 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: WTB:
>
>
>
> OK, what is a longeron yoke?
>
>
>
> Rene'
>
> N423CF
>
> 40322
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Rick
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:27 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: WTB:
>
>
>
> Bill,
>
>
>
> As I near completion of the wings I found these
> yokes all had a place at
> some point of the build so far. The quick change
> pins are cheap and really
> came in handy as I swapped yokes about four times
> during the ailerons and
> aileron/flap braces. The dimple die set that came
> with my squeezer was very
> complete and had all the dies to include long,
> short, small diameter,
> universal, screws everything. The longeron yoke is
> by far the most used on
> my project followed by the standard then the no
> hole. The no hole gets right
> into the ribs on the elevator, rudder, ailerons and
> flaps. It also allowed
> me to squeeze the entire aft row of rivets on the
> wing skins. The down side
> is they are not cheap.
>
>
>
> Rick
>
> ====================================
> ====================================
>
>
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: Oops. Grrr. ;) |
--> RV10-List message posted by: rv10@tpg.com.au
Quoting PJ Seipel <seipel@seznam.cz>:
> My tech counselor's view was that it is better to over drive the rivets
> than to under drive them. Something about an over driven rivet still
> retains 80% of its strength. Maybe someone else here has more concrete
> info or a reference you can check.
G'day all,
For everyone's reference I have copied a message from Bill Marvel in 2002 that
I found on the RV-Lis
about exactly this.
Interesting reading.
Have fun,
Scott Lewis
----------------------SNIP!!!!------------------------------------
Hi all:
A couple of months ago I sent the following post to the So. Cal RV
group. At the time I was not
subscribed to the matronics list. Since the subject is real life
testing I had done to determine the strengh of improperly set rivets, I
think you will be interested in the results. And since the bill just
arrived ($280), I need to share the knowledge with a lot of people to
get my money's worth!! Here's the post:
Two days ago I got around to doing something that I had planned last
year -- actual pull tests on riveted aluminum coupons to see how
critical it is to drive rivets to the correct height. All of us
building or with completed RVs (as will those those planning on it in
the future) have had to wonder which imperfect rivets to drill out and
which are OK. The answer is obvious when there is a severe cosmetic
problem, but
when strength is at issue, how much does a slightly under or overdriven
rivet affect strength? How much does a grossly under or overdriven
rivet affect it? Frankly, I had made the decision that the risk of
damage from drilling out a flush rivet is greater than the benefit of
doing so, unless an obvious cosmetic defect or really bad rivet is at
issue. Now I have some hard data to go by.
What I did was to make up 10 test coupons. Each of these consisted of
two pieces of .032 2024-T3 sheet 1.5 inches wide and 4 inches long.
These two pieces were overlapped by 1.5 inches and riveted together with
two parallel rows of 3 rivets each. Of the 10
total coupons, five involved the use of universal head AN 470 AD3 rivets
and the other 5 used AN 426 AD3 flush rivets. In the latter case, both
pieces of aluminum were dimpled at each rivet location, as is routinely
done in Van's airplanes. In fact, the coupon construction is similar to
the double rivet line where the lower outboard wing skin overlaps the
lower inboard wing skin. This joint is loaded in tension normally for
positive G flight and gave me the idea to mimic it for the pull tests.
Before getting into the results, let me ask you a question. Please
think about the answer before proceeding. Just how many pounds of force
do you think it would take to destroy one of the sheets used in making
up the coupons? Remember this is .032, 2024-T3 sheet 4 inches long and
1.5 inches wide with no holes or rivets in it. Think about grabbing and
suspending it at one end with some sort of clamp across the entire 1.5
inch width and then hanging weights on the other end from another
clamp. How much weight would it take to break this .032 inch thick
sheet? Would a 100 pound set of barbells do it? A 500 pound set? A
1200 pound small car? A gross weight RV8 at 1800 pounds? A gross
weight Grumman Tiger at 2400 pounds? More than that? Come up with some
sort of gut feel before proceeding. I was surprised by the answer. You
may or may not be, depending on your knowledge in this area.
Since some of you will cheat and read on, I'll hold the answer for a
moment! Each of the 5 test coupons, both with the universal head rivets
and the flush head rivets, was riveted to a different degree. One was
grossly under driven, one was slightly under driven, one was correct per
the rivet gauge, one was slightly over driven and the last was grossly
over driven. The slightly under driven and slightly over driven rivets
were such that you would probably need a rivet gauge to detect them -- I
did this because I suspect that most of the rivets in our planes fall
into this category. The grossly over and under driven rivets were
really gross. The over driven were squashed nearly flat and the under
driven were barely set at all. I did this to see just how poorly a
joint make of this sort of gross error would hold up. You would easily
see these and know there was a problem immediately. You'll find the
results interesting.........
The idea was to put each coupon in a pull test machine and expose the
riveted joint to a slowly increasing force until it yielded. This was
done at a structural test lab in Paramount (Southern CA city) that works
mostly with civil
engineering construction materials. A stress/strain graph was running
and we monitored it to see the first indication of joint failure as
indicated by a decrease in force required as the coupon stretched,
cracked, broke in two, sheared or tipped rivets, etc. I was interested
in the force required to cause the initial failure, as well as the
nature and appearance of that initial failure; ie, what actually
happened first. We agreed to stop the machine at the incipient
indication of failure, thus preserving the coupon in its early failure
state without destroying the joint completely. I was very curious as to
how things would fail and really had no idea other than the thought that
the dimpled, flush riveted joint would probably be stronger than the
undimpled one with the 470 universal head rivets. In contrast, one of
the owners of the lab came in to watch and thought the opposite would be
true. In his 50 years in the business, he had never seen this test
done. What do you think would hold best?
That said, here is the answer to my prior question. A force of 2300
pounds was required to break the test material with no rivets or holes
in it. It failed catastrophically shortly after some initial stretching
was noted. I had no idea that a cross section of this 2024 T3 sheet,
.032 inches thick and 1.5 inches wide, would sustain anywhere near that
load. Frankly, I was surprised when it passed 1000 pounds and still
going strong.
Before showing you the numbers, I will give a brief summary of them:
1. The dimpled, flush riveted construction was stronger, but not by as
much as I had thought. However, and this is really important, initial
failure of the dimpled construction was generally not catastrophic and
occurred as rivet tipping and rivet head distortion. In contrast,
initial failure of the AN 470 undimpled construction was generally
catastrophic by rivet shear. I am really happy Van uses the flush
riveted, double dimpled joints throughout most of the airplane!
2. Slightly under driving or slightly over driving a rivet makes an
observable and thus measurable difference in the joint strength.
3. Slightly over driving is stronger than slightly under driving and
results (in my opinion) in an insignificant difference in strength as
compared to properly driven rivets.
4. In the one test of slightly over driven AN 470 rivets, the joint was
actually stronger than with properly driven rivets. This may have just
been the luck of the draw for this single sample, so I wouldn't put any
real faith in it.
5. A joint made of grossly over driven rivets is stronger joint than a
joint make of grossly under driven ones.
6. A grossly under driven AN 470 joint is much weaker than a grossly
under driven AN 426 joint.
7. No joint was as strong as the parent material itself.
To summarize the summary, try for properly driven rivets but realize
that minor over driving is preferable to minor under driving and results
in nearly the same strength as does the condition of properly driven
rivets.
AN 426 AD 3 Table
Condition Force at failure Nature of failure
Gross under 1650 Rivet tipping, head distortion
Slight under 1775 Same
Correct 2025 Same
Slight over 1975 Same
Gross over 1825 Sheet tear at rivet line
AN 470 AD 3 Table
Gross under 1100 Rivet tip plus one sheared rivet
Slight under 1600 5 sheared rivets!
Correct 1625 6 sheared rivets!
Slight over 1750 6 sheared rivets!
Gross over 1500 Rivet tip plus sheet tear at
rivet line
Anyway, those are some real numbers for an area we have undoubtedly
thought about at one time or another. My opinions, FWIW: I think an
occasional rivet that is slightly under driven or slightly over driven
is utterly no big deal and can safely be ignored. We all have some of
these flying in formation in our airplanes. A line of them would be
another matter. Even an occasional grossly over driven rivet is
probably OK, especially if getting rid of it could cause damage. And if
underdriven too much, just whack it again. Hope you learned something
from this. I certainly did.
Bill Marvel
--
Bill Marvel Home/office 310 832
7617
P.O. Box 784 Cell 310 293 2013
San Pedro, CA 90733 Fax 310 832 5334
One good deed beats 100 good intentions...
Message 30
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s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=IqzHNV6+Ym3895abpub3mZz1Sb9GMxy6ej88vviaT2vPCXqL4qbafEes4R/aHvY1R1sT2sWsS1xJr2MKbwIIUpQ3X6X5+qiVcqOCHUXlYNhXWbOu3zIdPg2gjk5AZCiNzo9o4KCHQSTkzIGVVJpmAasu7DlL8ibhEsl6sHxP/GE=
;
--> RV10-List message posted by: Darton Steve <sfdarton@yahoo.com>
Rene,
Give me a call if you would like to discuss or come by
and try out a Cogsdill deburring tool. Mike Howe's web
site shows it in the wing section. I turned him onto
them and he also likes them.
Steve #40212 (801)971-1009
--- Rene Felker <rene@felker.com> wrote:
> I agree, I will swap dimpling for debur any
> day....of course I am just
> starting on my wings.
>
>
>
> Rene'
>
> N423CF
>
> 40322
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Mani Ravee
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:11 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: WTB:
>
>
>
> Actually, I did not mind the dimpling at all. Its
> the tedious deburring of
> the holes which get me. I really hate that.
>
> Mani
>
> Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
Message 31
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|
Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax)
Tech info for deburring tool found at
http://www.cogsdill.com/deburring.html
Rene Felker wrote:
> Where did you get your Burraway tool?
>
>
>
> Rene'
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 1:51 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: WTB:
>
>
>
> Deburring is much more pleasant with the Cogsdill Burraway tool.
>
>
>
> Jeff Carpenter
>
> 40304
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 10, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Rene Felker wrote:
>
>
> I agree, I will swap dimpling for debur any day........of course I am
> just starting on my wings.
>
>
>
> Rene'
>
> N423CF
>
> 40322
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mani Ravee
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:11 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: WTB:
>
>
>
> Actually, I did not mind the dimpling at all. Its the tedious
> deburring of the holes which get me. I really hate that.
>
> Mani
>
> Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net <mailto:ricksked@earthlink.net>> wrote:
>
>
>
>
--
Carlos Hernandez
Structural Engineers, LLC
2111 E. Broadway Rd. - Suite 3
Tempe, AZ 85282
Phone: 480.968.8600
Fax: 480.968.8608
www.sec-engr.com
Message 32
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|
Try Cogsdill at (803) 438-4000. Product #YA-00938 is the tool for
the 3/32 hole and YA-01250 is for the 1/8" hole. I believe they run
around $40.00 each... but they''re worth their weight in gold.
They work with a two sided retracting blade in a shaft. You mount it
in a hand held drill. As it goes through the hole, it deburrs one
side, the blade retracts and opens up again on the other side of the
hole. As you pull the shaft out of the hole, the other side is
deburred.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On May 10, 2005, at 1:29 PM, Rene Felker wrote:
> Where did you get your Burraway tool?
>
>
> Rene'
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 1:51 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: WTB:
>
>
> Deburring is much more pleasant with the Cogsdill Burraway tool.
>
>
> Jeff Carpenter
>
> 40304
>
>
> On May 10, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Rene Felker wrote:
>
>
> I agree, I will swap dimpling for debur any day=85=85..of course I am
> just starting on my wings.
>
>
> Rene'
>
> N423CF
>
> 40322
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mani Ravee
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:11 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: WTB:
>
>
> Actually, I did not mind the dimpling at all. Its the tedious
> deburring of the holes which get me. I really hate that.
>
> Mani
>
> Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
Message 33
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Napoli, Nikolaos (Contr)" <nikolaos.napoli@ngc.com>
Nice work.
MIL-HNDBK-5 is one of the standards by which metal aircraft structures are designed.
If one checks it for a 3/32" AD rivet, the allowable single shear strength
is given as 217lbs. Thus with 6 rivets the maximum design load you could
have is 6x217=1302lb as in this test case the rivet strength is less than the
bearing strength of the skin. Thus the only joint that was not acceptable was
the "gross under".
These results would be considerably different for tension loads on the rivets.
I think the tension loads which develop from things like the pressure distribution
on the skins are low compared to the tensile strength of the rivets. However,
one does have to be carefull at local details which might introduce significant
tensile loads in the rivets.
Niko
40188
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
rv10@tpg.com.au
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oops. Grrr. ;)
--> RV10-List message posted by: rv10@tpg.com.au
Quoting PJ Seipel <seipel@seznam.cz>:
> My tech counselor's view was that it is better to over drive the rivets
> than to under drive them. Something about an over driven rivet still
> retains 80% of its strength. Maybe someone else here has more concrete
> info or a reference you can check.
G'day all,
For everyone's reference I have copied a message from Bill Marvel in 2002 that
I found on the RV-Lis
about exactly this.
Interesting reading.
Have fun,
Scott Lewis
----------------------SNIP!!!!------------------------------------
Hi all:
A couple of months ago I sent the following post to the So. Cal RV
group. At the time I was not
subscribed to the matronics list. Since the subject is real life
testing I had done to determine the strengh of improperly set rivets, I
think you will be interested in the results. And since the bill just
arrived ($280), I need to share the knowledge with a lot of people to
get my money's worth!! Here's the post:
Two days ago I got around to doing something that I had planned last
year -- actual pull tests on riveted aluminum coupons to see how
critical it is to drive rivets to the correct height. All of us
building or with completed RVs (as will those those planning on it in
the future) have had to wonder which imperfect rivets to drill out and
which are OK. The answer is obvious when there is a severe cosmetic
problem, but
when strength is at issue, how much does a slightly under or overdriven
rivet affect strength? How much does a grossly under or overdriven
rivet affect it? Frankly, I had made the decision that the risk of
damage from drilling out a flush rivet is greater than the benefit of
doing so, unless an obvious cosmetic defect or really bad rivet is at
issue. Now I have some hard data to go by.
What I did was to make up 10 test coupons. Each of these consisted of
two pieces of .032 2024-T3 sheet 1.5 inches wide and 4 inches long.
These two pieces were overlapped by 1.5 inches and riveted together with
two parallel rows of 3 rivets each. Of the 10
total coupons, five involved the use of universal head AN 470 AD3 rivets
and the other 5 used AN 426 AD3 flush rivets. In the latter case, both
pieces of aluminum were dimpled at each rivet location, as is routinely
done in Van's airplanes. In fact, the coupon construction is similar to
the double rivet line where the lower outboard wing skin overlaps the
lower inboard wing skin. This joint is loaded in tension normally for
positive G flight and gave me the idea to mimic it for the pull tests.
Before getting into the results, let me ask you a question. Please
think about the answer before proceeding. Just how many pounds of force
do you think it would take to destroy one of the sheets used in making
up the coupons? Remember this is .032, 2024-T3 sheet 4 inches long and
1.5 inches wide with no holes or rivets in it. Think about grabbing and
suspending it at one end with some sort of clamp across the entire 1.5
inch width and then hanging weights on the other end from another
clamp. How much weight would it take to break this .032 inch thick
sheet? Would a 100 pound set of barbells do it? A 500 pound set? A
1200 pound small car? A gross weight RV8 at 1800 pounds? A gross
weight Grumman Tiger at 2400 pounds? More than that? Come up with some
sort of gut feel before proceeding. I was surprised by the answer. You
may or may not be, depending on your knowledge in this area.
Since some of you will cheat and read on, I'll hold the answer for a
moment! Each of the 5 test coupons, both with the universal head rivets
and the flush head rivets, was riveted to a different degree. One was
grossly under driven, one was slightly under driven, one was correct per
the rivet gauge, one was slightly over driven and the last was grossly
over driven. The slightly under driven and slightly over driven rivets
were such that you would probably need a rivet gauge to detect them -- I
did this because I suspect that most of the rivets in our planes fall
into this category. The grossly over and under driven rivets were
really gross. The over driven were squashed nearly flat and the under
driven were barely set at all. I did this to see just how poorly a
joint make of this sort of gross error would hold up. You would easily
see these and know there was a problem immediately. You'll find the
results interesting.........
The idea was to put each coupon in a pull test machine and expose the
riveted joint to a slowly increasing force until it yielded. This was
done at a structural test lab in Paramount (Southern CA city) that works
mostly with civil
engineering construction materials. A stress/strain graph was running
and we monitored it to see the first indication of joint failure as
indicated by a decrease in force required as the coupon stretched,
cracked, broke in two, sheared or tipped rivets, etc. I was interested
in the force required to cause the initial failure, as well as the
nature and appearance of that initial failure; ie, what actually
happened first. We agreed to stop the machine at the incipient
indication of failure, thus preserving the coupon in its early failure
state without destroying the joint completely. I was very curious as to
how things would fail and really had no idea other than the thought that
the dimpled, flush riveted joint would probably be stronger than the
undimpled one with the 470 universal head rivets. In contrast, one of
the owners of the lab came in to watch and thought the opposite would be
true. In his 50 years in the business, he had never seen this test
done. What do you think would hold best?
That said, here is the answer to my prior question. A force of 2300
pounds was required to break the test material with no rivets or holes
in it. It failed catastrophically shortly after some initial stretching
was noted. I had no idea that a cross section of this 2024 T3 sheet,
.032 inches thick and 1.5 inches wide, would sustain anywhere near that
load. Frankly, I was surprised when it passed 1000 pounds and still
going strong.
Before showing you the numbers, I will give a brief summary of them:
1. The dimpled, flush riveted construction was stronger, but not by as
much as I had thought. However, and this is really important, initial
failure of the dimpled construction was generally not catastrophic and
occurred as rivet tipping and rivet head distortion. In contrast,
initial failure of the AN 470 undimpled construction was generally
catastrophic by rivet shear. I am really happy Van uses the flush
riveted, double dimpled joints throughout most of the airplane!
2. Slightly under driving or slightly over driving a rivet makes an
observable and thus measurable difference in the joint strength.
3. Slightly over driving is stronger than slightly under driving and
results (in my opinion) in an insignificant difference in strength as
compared to properly driven rivets.
4. In the one test of slightly over driven AN 470 rivets, the joint was
actually stronger than with properly driven rivets. This may have just
been the luck of the draw for this single sample, so I wouldn't put any
real faith in it.
5. A joint made of grossly over driven rivets is stronger joint than a
joint make of grossly under driven ones.
6. A grossly under driven AN 470 joint is much weaker than a grossly
under driven AN 426 joint.
7. No joint was as strong as the parent material itself.
To summarize the summary, try for properly driven rivets but realize
that minor over driving is preferable to minor under driving and results
in nearly the same strength as does the condition of properly driven
rivets.
AN 426 AD 3 Table
Condition Force at failure Nature of failure
Gross under 1650 Rivet tipping, head distortion
Slight under 1775 Same
Correct 2025 Same
Slight over 1975 Same
Gross over 1825 Sheet tear at rivet line
AN 470 AD 3 Table
Gross under 1100 Rivet tip plus one sheared rivet
Slight under 1600 5 sheared rivets!
Correct 1625 6 sheared rivets!
Slight over 1750 6 sheared rivets!
Gross over 1500 Rivet tip plus sheet tear at
rivet line
Anyway, those are some real numbers for an area we have undoubtedly
thought about at one time or another. My opinions, FWIW: I think an
occasional rivet that is slightly under driven or slightly over driven
is utterly no big deal and can safely be ignored. We all have some of
these flying in formation in our airplanes. A line of them would be
another matter. Even an occasional grossly over driven rivet is
probably OK, especially if getting rid of it could cause damage. And if
underdriven too much, just whack it again. Hope you learned something
from this. I certainly did.
Bill Marvel
--
Bill Marvel Home/office 310 832
7617
P.O. Box 784 Cell 310 293 2013
San Pedro, CA 90733 Fax 310 832 5334
One good deed beats 100 good intentions...
Message 34
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| Subject: | Quickbuild Purchase Question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Not sure if you've got your answers yet, but here's my $.02:
Wing:
I believe that the QB does not have the bottom skins installed - at least the outboard
skin. That makes everything accessible. In fact, that's the stage that
most people would be running their wiring, installing the AP servo, pitot tube,
etc. I notice that in Tim's write-up on the Duckworth HID lights, his take
was that it was easier to install with the leading edge already assembled.
Same is true of the PSS AOA system pressure ports. Van's does not yet have the
capacitance fuel senders available for the -10. There are other probes that
could be adapted but since the QB has the tank sealed up (rear baffle installed)
there's no access to do anything except install the float senders. If you
go with the SB (I did) I concur with what others have said, there are two wings
and therefore all of the work is duplicated, upside is that it frequently
goes much faster the second time. It is however very straight forward, just lots
of it! While sealing the fuel tanks wasn't my favorite job, it wasn't really
all that bad. Other memorable part was countersinking the main spars (a lot
of holes!). Last comment - it's probably faster to build both wings at the
same time rather than in a serial fashion.
Fuselage:
I also have the slow build fuselage and am at about the stage of where the quickbuild
is when delivered. My observation is that it's more complicated and somewhat
more difficult than either the wings or tail kits. Things that come to
mind are the bending and twisting of the longerons (hopefully later versions
of the manual have correct measurements...), there's a few rivets that are very
difficult to get to, etc. I don't really see how the QB would limit battery
location - standard location is in the tailcone and the parts are delivered
with that part of the kit. Not sure what additional storage you might want -
the only places that come to mind would be below the baggage floor (ala Dan Checkoway)
or in the tailcone. The QB baggage floors won't be attached yet because
access is needed to attach the tailcone so you've got access to run conduit,
etc. The rear baggage bulkhead is also part of the tail kit so nothing will
have been done on that either. A couple things that come to mind that would
potentially cause a little extra work:
- If the instrument subpanel and associated ribs are installed as part of the QB
(don't know if they are - can somebody with a QB fuselage confirm?). It is
a virtual certainty that you'll have to cut out & reinforce part of the subpanel
for avionics clearance. This would be much easier to do on a workbench.
- I installed my bent whip comm antennas below the rear seats. I put in doublers
for the bottom skin and made small access panels in the seat bottoms for access
to the connectors in the future. This would be much more difficult if the
rear seat bottoms were already installed.
If I was set on getting part of the kit QB and could only pick one I'd probably
go with the fuselage. I elected to go SB for both wings and fuselage just because
I'm enjoying the process so much!
Bob #40105
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Jessen
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
Thanks, everyone, for helping me on this task. I am a little more confused
than before, but that's the beauty of getting everyone's opinion. Here's
what I have so far, along with questions.
In favor of slow wing:
You get to add wiring, do other modifications that maybe you couldn't with
the QB. Downside is that you get to do repetitious work and have to deal
with the tanks. Questions: Does going with QB wings really eliminate being
able to put wiring in that you'd like to have for antennae, HID lights,
flasher lights, heated pitot, AOA, etc? Is the ability to add edge lighting
in the wing taken away by going with the QB? Also, can you not have (and
why would you?) capacitance fuel sensors with the QB?
In favor of the slow fuselage:
You don't get as bored as with the wings, you don't have to deal with the
tanks, you can do modifications that you wouldn't be able to do with the QB,
such as battery placement, storage areas, etc. Questions: What are folks
averaging in hours to put together the slow build fuselage? Is it
significantly greater than for the wings? Are there jigs or special tools
required, or is it just as "straight forward" as doing the Empcone? What
modifications are people doing that really require you to go the Slow Build
route?
I figure that the answers here will help out not only myself, but a few
others who have purchased the Empcone, but who are wondering what build
strategy to adopt next.
Thanks in advance
John Jessen
-> Empcone 1%
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
I'll second the tiresome or at times boring part of the wings...finish a
part...then do it again. Anyone noticed that the right wing parts come out a
tad better than the left wing?...I guess practice makes perfect. I must
admit though that finishing the tanks really felt good!!
Rick S.
40185
Flaps
Message 35
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Make sure you tell them you are using them on aluminum as their standard blades
are for steel.
Niko
40188
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
Subject: Re: RV10-List: WTB:
Try Cogsdill at (803) 438-4000. Product #YA-00938 is the tool for the 3/32 hole
and YA-01250 is for the 1/8" hole. I believe they run around $40.00 each...
but they''re worth their weight in gold.
They work with a two sided retracting blade in a shaft. You mount it in a hand
held drill. As it goes through the hole, it deburrs one side, the blade retracts
and opens up again on the other side of the hole. As you pull the shaft
out of the hole, the other side is deburred.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On May 10, 2005, at 1:29 PM, Rene Felker wrote:
Where did you get your Burraway tool?
Rene'
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [ mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
Subject: Re: RV10-List: WTB:
Deburring is much more pleasant with the Cogsdill Burraway tool.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On May 10, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Rene Felker wrote:
I agree, I will swap dimpling for debur any day=85=85..of course I am just starting
on my wings.
Rene'
N423CF
40322
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [ <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mani Ravee
Subject: RE: RV10-List: WTB:
Actually, I did not mind the dimpling at all. Its the tedious deburring of the
holes which get me. I really hate that.
Mani
Rick < <mailto:ricksked@earthlink.net> ricksked@earthlink.net> wrote:
Message 36
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Anyone considering Ameri-King AK450? These units are inexpensive (they declare)
and should be.I am completing the annual on My C177RG and find that for the second
year in a row the ELT fails to transmit. The original Sharc 7 lasted 26
years and the AK450 failed twice in less than three years. The company replaced
the original failure with another unit which again failed. They now refuse to
repair without charge. Their response was that ELTs are not expensive. Mine
was they certainly given theirs failed twice sometime in less than 36 months.
Message 37
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s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=RrC5AGxgX2EhjXvfM7lwPHkaqh3+ayIB6tdZsY3PftUf44HH5uGutaz5zIaK66FmVOkJ0/nHeEXbMXXBo1OXoHPn9lm/9OnOU2iSlfpMDgT8AIAV5ngQes5d3/E0P2xoLd4qCGMrdMHCjWOxqKSriuebFNnvp8mFhNapjbiK9e0=
;
--> RV10-List message posted by: Darton Steve <sfdarton@yahoo.com>
Rene'
Here is a link where I demonstrate using a 3/32
Burraway tool.
https://home.comcast.net/~sfdarton/RV10_movies/Burraway_2.avi
This is deburring both sides of the hole in one pass
and the back side of this rear elevator spar would be
very difficult to deburr by conventional means. You
can see how quick it is. I deburr nearly every single
hole with these tools. They are expensive for such a
small tool but I would never want to build a metal
airplane without one. I have some extra larger size
burraway tools I would part with very reasonably.
Steve #40212 (801)0971-1009
--- Rene Felker <rene@felker.com> wrote:
> Where did you get your Burraway tool?
>
>
>
> Rene'
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 1:51 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: WTB:
>
>
>
> Deburring is much more pleasant with the Cogsdill
> Burraway tool.
>
>
>
> Jeff Carpenter
>
> 40304
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 10, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Rene Felker wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I agree, I will swap dimpling for debur any
> day....of course I am just
> starting on my wings.
>
>
>
> Rene'
>
> N423CF
>
> 40322
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Mani Ravee
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:11 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: WTB:
>
>
>
> Actually, I did not mind the dimpling at all. Its
> the tedious deburring of
> the holes which get me. I really hate that.
>
> Mani
>
> Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Quickbuild Purchase Question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I just got the QB fuse and from the looks of it, the instrument panel
ribs are all in place, but, the panel and top skin are only in
with temporary rivets, so it should be easy (I think) to remove the
entire panel assembly and rework the ribs as necessary.
Bob, thanks for reminding me about the bent-whip antenna's under the
rear seats. That's what I plan to do too....I'll need to get my
stuff together and get those access panels cut. I assume you did
one under each side, with maximum side-to-side spacing, but staying
on the flat part of the fuse. Did you just do skin doublers or tied
into the ribs?
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)"
> <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>
> Not sure if you've got your answers yet, but here's my $.02:
>
> Wing: I believe that the QB does not have the bottom skins installed
> - at least the outboard skin. That makes everything accessible. In
> fact, that's the stage that most people would be running their
> wiring, installing the AP servo, pitot tube, etc. I notice that in
> Tim's write-up on the Duckworth HID lights, his take was that it was
> easier to install with the leading edge already assembled. Same is
> true of the PSS AOA system pressure ports. Van's does not yet have
> the capacitance fuel senders available for the -10. There are other
> probes that could be adapted but since the QB has the tank sealed up
> (rear baffle installed) there's no access to do anything except
> install the float senders. If you go with the SB (I did) I concur
> with what others have said, there are two wings and therefore all of
> the work is duplicated, upside is that it frequently goes much faster
> the second time. It is however very straight forward, just lots of
> it! While sealing the fuel tanks wasn't my f! avorite job, it wasn't
> really all that bad. Other memorable part was countersinking the
> main spars (a lot of holes!). Last comment - it's probably faster to
> build both wings at the same time rather than in a serial fashion.
>
> Fuselage: I also have the slow build fuselage and am at about the
> stage of where the quickbuild is when delivered. My observation is
> that it's more complicated and somewhat more difficult than either
> the wings or tail kits. Things that come to mind are the bending
> and twisting of the longerons (hopefully later versions of the manual
> have correct measurements...), there's a few rivets that are very
> difficult to get to, etc. I don't really see how the QB would limit
> battery location - standard location is in the tailcone and the parts
> are delivered with that part of the kit. Not sure what additional
> storage you might want - the only places that come to mind would be
> below the baggage floor (ala Dan Checkoway) or in the tailcone. The
> QB baggage floors won't be attached yet because access is needed to
> attach the tailcone so you've got access to run conduit, etc. The
> rear baggage bulkhead is also part of the tail kit so nothing will
> have been done on that either. A couple things th! at come to mind
> that would potentially cause a little extra work: - If the instrument
> subpanel and associated ribs are installed as part of the QB (don't
> know if they are - can somebody with a QB fuselage confirm?). It is
> a virtual certainty that you'll have to cut out & reinforce part of
> the subpanel for avionics clearance. This would be much easier to do
> on a workbench. - I installed my bent whip comm antennas below the
> rear seats. I put in doublers for the bottom skin and made small
> access panels in the seat bottoms for access to the connectors in the
> future. This would be much more difficult if the rear seat bottoms
> were already installed.
>
> If I was set on getting part of the kit QB and could only pick one
> I'd probably go with the fuselage. I elected to go SB for both wings
> and fuselage just because I'm enjoying the process so much!
>
> Bob #40105
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John
> Jessen Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 1:49 PM To:
> rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase
> Question
>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
>
> Thanks, everyone, for helping me on this task. I am a little more
> confused than before, but that's the beauty of getting everyone's
> opinion. Here's what I have so far, along with questions.
>
> In favor of slow wing:
>
> You get to add wiring, do other modifications that maybe you couldn't
> with the QB. Downside is that you get to do repetitious work and
> have to deal with the tanks. Questions: Does going with QB wings
> really eliminate being able to put wiring in that you'd like to have
> for antennae, HID lights, flasher lights, heated pitot, AOA, etc? Is
> the ability to add edge lighting in the wing taken away by going with
> the QB? Also, can you not have (and why would you?) capacitance fuel
> sensors with the QB?
>
> In favor of the slow fuselage:
>
> You don't get as bored as with the wings, you don't have to deal with
> the tanks, you can do modifications that you wouldn't be able to do
> with the QB, such as battery placement, storage areas, etc.
> Questions: What are folks averaging in hours to put together the
> slow build fuselage? Is it significantly greater than for the wings?
> Are there jigs or special tools required, or is it just as "straight
> forward" as doing the Empcone? What modifications are people doing
> that really require you to go the Slow Build route?
>
> I figure that the answers here will help out not only myself, but a
> few others who have purchased the Empcone, but who are wondering what
> build strategy to adopt next.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> John Jessen -> Empcone 1%
>
> -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:42 AM To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
>
>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
>
> I'll second the tiresome or at times boring part of the
> wings...finish a part...then do it again. Anyone noticed that the
> right wing parts come out a tad better than the left wing?...I guess
> practice makes perfect. I must admit though that finishing the tanks
> really felt good!!
>
> Rick S. 40185 Flaps
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Quickbuild Purchase Question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Bob, do you have any photos of your antenna doublers? I look forward to
QB Fuselage owners commenting on the instrument panel rib modifications
when they get there.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob
(US SSA)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)"
<bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Not sure if you've got your answers yet, but here's my $.02:
Wing:
I believe that the QB does not have the bottom skins installed - at
least the outboard skin. That makes everything accessible. In fact,
that's the stage that most people would be running their wiring,
installing the AP servo, pitot tube, etc. I notice that in Tim's
write-up on the Duckworth HID lights, his take was that it was easier to
install with the leading edge already assembled. Same is true of the
PSS AOA system pressure ports. Van's does not yet have the capacitance
fuel senders available for the -10. There are other probes that could
be adapted but since the QB has the tank sealed up (rear baffle
installed) there's no access to do anything except install the float
senders. If you go with the SB (I did) I concur with what others have
said, there are two wings and therefore all of the work is duplicated,
upside is that it frequently goes much faster the second time. It is
however very straight forward, just lots of it! While sealing the fuel
tanks wasn't my f!
avorite job, it wasn't really all that bad. Other memorable part was
countersinking the main spars (a lot of holes!). Last comment - it's
probably faster to build both wings at the same time rather than in a
serial fashion.
Fuselage:
I also have the slow build fuselage and am at about the stage of where
the quickbuild is when delivered. My observation is that it's more
complicated and somewhat more difficult than either the wings or tail
kits. Things that come to mind are the bending and twisting of the
longerons (hopefully later versions of the manual have correct
measurements...), there's a few rivets that are very difficult to get
to, etc. I don't really see how the QB would limit battery location -
standard location is in the tailcone and the parts are delivered with
that part of the kit. Not sure what additional storage you might want -
the only places that come to mind would be below the baggage floor (ala
Dan Checkoway) or in the tailcone. The QB baggage floors won't be
attached yet because access is needed to attach the tailcone so you've
got access to run conduit, etc. The rear baggage bulkhead is also part
of the tail kit so nothing will have been done on that either. A couple
things th!
at come to mind that would potentially cause a little extra work:
- If the instrument subpanel and associated ribs are installed as part
of the QB (don't know if they are - can somebody with a QB fuselage
confirm?). It is a virtual certainty that you'll have to cut out &
reinforce part of the subpanel for avionics clearance. This would be
much easier to do on a workbench.
- I installed my bent whip comm antennas below the rear seats. I put in
doublers for the bottom skin and made small access panels in the seat
bottoms for access to the connectors in the future. This would be much
more difficult if the rear seat bottoms were already installed.
If I was set on getting part of the kit QB and could only pick one I'd
probably go with the fuselage. I elected to go SB for both wings and
fuselage just because I'm enjoying the process so much!
Bob #40105
Message 40
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|
Cogsdill Tool Products, Inc.
PO Box 7007
Camden, SC 29020-7007
803-438-4000 or
803-438-5263
Email cogsdill@cogsdill.com
Catalog # 100 U.S. 1-04, "Burraway" Pages 6-11
John Cox
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker
Subject: RE: RV10-List: WTB:
Where did you get your Burraway tool?
Rene'
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Carpenter
Subject: Re: RV10-List: WTB:
Deburring is much more pleasant with the Cogsdill Burraway tool.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On May 10, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Rene Felker wrote:
I agree, I will swap dimpling for debur any day........of course I am
just starting on my wings.
Rene'
N423CF
40322
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mani Ravee
Subject: RE: RV10-List: WTB:
Actually, I did not mind the dimpling at all. Its the tedious deburring
of the holes which get me. I really hate that.
Mani
Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net> wrote:
Message 41
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| Subject: | Quickbuild Purchase Question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
A properly prepared doubler (compliant with AC 43.13-2A) is usually tied
into the adjacent ribs and or J stiffeners. That is a feature which
might get addressed sooner in the antenna selection (location) process
for the SB guys. The tie-in is to relieve skin stress, flex and oil
canning from the antennae drag coefficient. Let me know how you and the
rest of the QB guys solve it Tim.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I just got the QB fuse and from the looks of it, the instrument panel
ribs are all in place, but, the panel and top skin are only in
with temporary rivets, so it should be easy (I think) to remove the
entire panel assembly and rework the ribs as necessary.
Bob, thanks for reminding me about the bent-whip antenna's under the
rear seats. That's what I plan to do too....I'll need to get my
stuff together and get those access panels cut. I assume you did
one under each side, with maximum side-to-side spacing, but staying
on the flat part of the fuse. Did you just do skin doublers or tied
into the ribs?
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Oops. Grrr. ;) |
--> RV10-List message posted by: PJ Seipel <seipel@seznam.cz>
Excellent info. I should probably mention that my tech counselor is an
airframes contractor hired by the USMC to provide maintenance advice to
the Marines who work on the AV-8B. I'm glad to see that his info is
correct.
PJ
RV-10 # 40032
rv10@tpg.com.au wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: rv10@tpg.com.au
>
>Quoting PJ Seipel <seipel@seznam.cz>:
>
>
>>My tech counselor's view was that it is better to over drive the rivets
>>than to under drive them. Something about an over driven rivet still
>>retains 80% of its strength. Maybe someone else here has more concrete
>>info or a reference you can check.
>>
>>
>
>G'day all,
>
>For everyone's reference I have copied a message from Bill Marvel in 2002 that
I found on the RV-Lis
>about exactly this.
>
>Interesting reading.
>
>Have fun,
>Scott Lewis
>
>----------------------SNIP!!!!------------------------------------
>
>
>Hi all:
>
>A couple of months ago I sent the following post to the So. Cal RV
>group. At the time I was not
>subscribed to the matronics list. Since the subject is real life
>testing I had done to determine the strengh of improperly set rivets, I
>think you will be interested in the results. And since the bill just
>arrived ($280), I need to share the knowledge with a lot of people to
>get my money's worth!! Here's the post:
>
>
>Two days ago I got around to doing something that I had planned last
>year -- actual pull tests on riveted aluminum coupons to see how
>critical it is to drive rivets to the correct height. All of us
>building or with completed RVs (as will those those planning on it in
>the future) have had to wonder which imperfect rivets to drill out and
>which are OK. The answer is obvious when there is a severe cosmetic
>problem, but
>when strength is at issue, how much does a slightly under or overdriven
>rivet affect strength? How much does a grossly under or overdriven
>rivet affect it? Frankly, I had made the decision that the risk of
>damage from drilling out a flush rivet is greater than the benefit of
>doing so, unless an obvious cosmetic defect or really bad rivet is at
>issue. Now I have some hard data to go by.
>
>What I did was to make up 10 test coupons. Each of these consisted of
>two pieces of .032 2024-T3 sheet 1.5 inches wide and 4 inches long.
>These two pieces were overlapped by 1.5 inches and riveted together with
>two parallel rows of 3 rivets each. Of the 10
>total coupons, five involved the use of universal head AN 470 AD3 rivets
>and the other 5 used AN 426 AD3 flush rivets. In the latter case, both
>pieces of aluminum were dimpled at each rivet location, as is routinely
>done in Van's airplanes. In fact, the coupon construction is similar to
>the double rivet line where the lower outboard wing skin overlaps the
>lower inboard wing skin. This joint is loaded in tension normally for
>positive G flight and gave me the idea to mimic it for the pull tests.
>
>Before getting into the results, let me ask you a question. Please
>think about the answer before proceeding. Just how many pounds of force
>do you think it would take to destroy one of the sheets used in making
>up the coupons? Remember this is .032, 2024-T3 sheet 4 inches long and
>1.5 inches wide with no holes or rivets in it. Think about grabbing and
>suspending it at one end with some sort of clamp across the entire 1.5
>inch width and then hanging weights on the other end from another
>clamp. How much weight would it take to break this .032 inch thick
>sheet? Would a 100 pound set of barbells do it? A 500 pound set? A
>1200 pound small car? A gross weight RV8 at 1800 pounds? A gross
>weight Grumman Tiger at 2400 pounds? More than that? Come up with some
>sort of gut feel before proceeding. I was surprised by the answer. You
>may or may not be, depending on your knowledge in this area.
>
>Since some of you will cheat and read on, I'll hold the answer for a
>moment! Each of the 5 test coupons, both with the universal head rivets
>and the flush head rivets, was riveted to a different degree. One was
>grossly under driven, one was slightly under driven, one was correct per
>the rivet gauge, one was slightly over driven and the last was grossly
>over driven. The slightly under driven and slightly over driven rivets
>were such that you would probably need a rivet gauge to detect them -- I
>did this because I suspect that most of the rivets in our planes fall
>into this category. The grossly over and under driven rivets were
>really gross. The over driven were squashed nearly flat and the under
>driven were barely set at all. I did this to see just how poorly a
>joint make of this sort of gross error would hold up. You would easily
>see these and know there was a problem immediately. You'll find the
>results interesting.........
>
>The idea was to put each coupon in a pull test machine and expose the
>riveted joint to a slowly increasing force until it yielded. This was
>done at a structural test lab in Paramount (Southern CA city) that works
>mostly with civil
>engineering construction materials. A stress/strain graph was running
>and we monitored it to see the first indication of joint failure as
>indicated by a decrease in force required as the coupon stretched,
>cracked, broke in two, sheared or tipped rivets, etc. I was interested
>in the force required to cause the initial failure, as well as the
>nature and appearance of that initial failure; ie, what actually
>happened first. We agreed to stop the machine at the incipient
>indication of failure, thus preserving the coupon in its early failure
>state without destroying the joint completely. I was very curious as to
>how things would fail and really had no idea other than the thought that
>the dimpled, flush riveted joint would probably be stronger than the
>undimpled one with the 470 universal head rivets. In contrast, one of
>the owners of the lab came in to watch and thought the opposite would be
>true. In his 50 years in the business, he had never seen this test
>done. What do you think would hold best?
>
>That said, here is the answer to my prior question. A force of 2300
>pounds was required to break the test material with no rivets or holes
>in it. It failed catastrophically shortly after some initial stretching
>was noted. I had no idea that a cross section of this 2024 T3 sheet,
>.032 inches thick and 1.5 inches wide, would sustain anywhere near that
>load. Frankly, I was surprised when it passed 1000 pounds and still
>going strong.
>
>Before showing you the numbers, I will give a brief summary of them:
>
>1. The dimpled, flush riveted construction was stronger, but not by as
>much as I had thought. However, and this is really important, initial
>failure of the dimpled construction was generally not catastrophic and
>occurred as rivet tipping and rivet head distortion. In contrast,
>initial failure of the AN 470 undimpled construction was generally
>catastrophic by rivet shear. I am really happy Van uses the flush
>riveted, double dimpled joints throughout most of the airplane!
>
>2. Slightly under driving or slightly over driving a rivet makes an
>observable and thus measurable difference in the joint strength.
>
>3. Slightly over driving is stronger than slightly under driving and
>results (in my opinion) in an insignificant difference in strength as
>compared to properly driven rivets.
>
>4. In the one test of slightly over driven AN 470 rivets, the joint was
>actually stronger than with properly driven rivets. This may have just
>been the luck of the draw for this single sample, so I wouldn't put any
>real faith in it.
>
>5. A joint made of grossly over driven rivets is stronger joint than a
>joint make of grossly under driven ones.
>
>6. A grossly under driven AN 470 joint is much weaker than a grossly
>under driven AN 426 joint.
>
>7. No joint was as strong as the parent material itself.
>
>To summarize the summary, try for properly driven rivets but realize
>that minor over driving is preferable to minor under driving and results
>in nearly the same strength as does the condition of properly driven
>rivets.
>
>AN 426 AD 3 Table
>
>Condition Force at failure Nature of failure
>
>Gross under 1650 Rivet tipping, head distortion
>Slight under 1775 Same
>Correct 2025 Same
>Slight over 1975 Same
>Gross over 1825 Sheet tear at rivet line
>
>
>AN 470 AD 3 Table
>
>Gross under 1100 Rivet tip plus one sheared rivet
>Slight under 1600 5 sheared rivets!
>Correct 1625 6 sheared rivets!
>Slight over 1750 6 sheared rivets!
>Gross over 1500 Rivet tip plus sheet tear at
>rivet line
>
>Anyway, those are some real numbers for an area we have undoubtedly
>thought about at one time or another. My opinions, FWIW: I think an
>occasional rivet that is slightly under driven or slightly over driven
>is utterly no big deal and can safely be ignored. We all have some of
>these flying in formation in our airplanes. A line of them would be
>another matter. Even an occasional grossly over driven rivet is
>probably OK, especially if getting rid of it could cause damage. And if
>underdriven too much, just whack it again. Hope you learned something
>from this. I certainly did.
>
>Bill Marvel
>
>
>--
>Bill Marvel Home/office 310 832
>7617
>P.O. Box 784 Cell 310 293 2013
>San Pedro, CA 90733 Fax 310 832 5334
>
>One good deed beats 100 good intentions...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 43
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A longeron yoke has more of a C shape than most of the others. I assume
it is so named because you can hook it around a longeron to get at a
rivet. It works well for other spots too.
Here is a link with a picture.
http://www.yardstore.com/index.cfm?action=ViewDetails&ItemID=1005&Category=95
Mark
Do not archive
Rene Felker wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick
>
> OK, what is a longeron yoke?
>
>
>
> Rene'
>
> N423CF
>
> 40322
>
Message 44
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| Subject: | Quickbuild Purchase Question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Tim,
I just did doublers on the skin between the ribs and didn't tie them into the ribs.
I put nutplates on the doublers and attached them to the skin via the nutplate
mounting rivets that were covered by the antennas. Here's a link on the
freedomflyers.com site and my locations match those shown (for comm and transponder).
You can't really move the antennas to the next bay outboard because
the aft ends will extend beyond the fuselage. The access panels in the seat
bottoms are just large enough to get a hand in to reach the cable for whatever
reason. I considered just anchoring it, but figured it wouldn't take long to
make the panels and I'd regret it later if I didn't.
Bob #40105
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I just got the QB fuse and from the looks of it, the instrument panel
ribs are all in place, but, the panel and top skin are only in
with temporary rivets, so it should be easy (I think) to remove the
entire panel assembly and rework the ribs as necessary.
Bob, thanks for reminding me about the bent-whip antenna's under the
rear seats. That's what I plan to do too....I'll need to get my
stuff together and get those access panels cut. I assume you did
one under each side, with maximum side-to-side spacing, but staying
on the flat part of the fuse. Did you just do skin doublers or tied
into the ribs?
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)"
> <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>
> Not sure if you've got your answers yet, but here's my $.02:
>
> Wing: I believe that the QB does not have the bottom skins installed
> - at least the outboard skin. That makes everything accessible. In
> fact, that's the stage that most people would be running their
> wiring, installing the AP servo, pitot tube, etc. I notice that in
> Tim's write-up on the Duckworth HID lights, his take was that it was
> easier to install with the leading edge already assembled. Same is
> true of the PSS AOA system pressure ports. Van's does not yet have
> the capacitance fuel senders available for the -10. There are other
> probes that could be adapted but since the QB has the tank sealed up
> (rear baffle installed) there's no access to do anything except
> install the float senders. If you go with the SB (I did) I concur
> with what others have said, there are two wings and therefore all of
> the work is duplicated, upside is that it frequently goes much faster
> the second time. It is however very straight forward, just lots of
> it! While sealing the fuel tanks wasn't my f! avorite job, it wasn't
> really all that bad. Other memorable part was countersinking the
> main spars (a lot of holes!). Last comment - it's probably faster to
> build both wings at the same time rather than in a serial fashion.
>
> Fuselage: I also have the slow build fuselage and am at about the
> stage of where the quickbuild is when delivered. My observation is
> that it's more complicated and somewhat more difficult than either
> the wings or tail kits. Things that come to mind are the bending
> and twisting of the longerons (hopefully later versions of the manual
> have correct measurements...), there's a few rivets that are very
> difficult to get to, etc. I don't really see how the QB would limit
> battery location - standard location is in the tailcone and the parts
> are delivered with that part of the kit. Not sure what additional
> storage you might want - the only places that come to mind would be
> below the baggage floor (ala Dan Checkoway) or in the tailcone. The
> QB baggage floors won't be attached yet because access is needed to
> attach the tailcone so you've got access to run conduit, etc. The
> rear baggage bulkhead is also part of the tail kit so nothing will
> have been done on that either. A couple things th! at come to mind
> that would potentially cause a little extra work: - If the instrument
> subpanel and associated ribs are installed as part of the QB (don't
> know if they are - can somebody with a QB fuselage confirm?). It is
> a virtual certainty that you'll have to cut out & reinforce part of
> the subpanel for avionics clearance. This would be much easier to do
> on a workbench. - I installed my bent whip comm antennas below the
> rear seats. I put in doublers for the bottom skin and made small
> access panels in the seat bottoms for access to the connectors in the
> future. This would be much more difficult if the rear seat bottoms
> were already installed.
>
> If I was set on getting part of the kit QB and could only pick one
> I'd probably go with the fuselage. I elected to go SB for both wings
> and fuselage just because I'm enjoying the process so much!
>
> Bob #40105
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John
> Jessen Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 1:49 PM To:
> rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase
> Question
>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
>
> Thanks, everyone, for helping me on this task. I am a little more
> confused than before, but that's the beauty of getting everyone's
> opinion. Here's what I have so far, along with questions.
>
> In favor of slow wing:
>
> You get to add wiring, do other modifications that maybe you couldn't
> with the QB. Downside is that you get to do repetitious work and
> have to deal with the tanks. Questions: Does going with QB wings
> really eliminate being able to put wiring in that you'd like to have
> for antennae, HID lights, flasher lights, heated pitot, AOA, etc? Is
> the ability to add edge lighting in the wing taken away by going with
> the QB? Also, can you not have (and why would you?) capacitance fuel
> sensors with the QB?
>
> In favor of the slow fuselage:
>
> You don't get as bored as with the wings, you don't have to deal with
> the tanks, you can do modifications that you wouldn't be able to do
> with the QB, such as battery placement, storage areas, etc.
> Questions: What are folks averaging in hours to put together the
> slow build fuselage? Is it significantly greater than for the wings?
> Are there jigs or special tools required, or is it just as "straight
> forward" as doing the Empcone? What modifications are people doing
> that really require you to go the Slow Build route?
>
> I figure that the answers here will help out not only myself, but a
> few others who have purchased the Empcone, but who are wondering what
> build strategy to adopt next.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> John Jessen -> Empcone 1%
>
> -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:42 AM To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
>
>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
>
> I'll second the tiresome or at times boring part of the
> wings...finish a part...then do it again. Anyone noticed that the
> right wing parts come out a tad better than the left wing?...I guess
> practice makes perfect. I must admit though that finishing the tanks
> really felt good!!
>
> Rick S. 40185 Flaps
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 45
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|
| Subject: | Quickbuild Purchase Question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Forgot the link:
http://freedomflyers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60
-----Original Message-----
| From: | Condrey, Bob (US SSA) |
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
Tim,
I just did doublers on the skin between the ribs and didn't tie them into the ribs.
I put nutplates on the doublers and attached them to the skin via the nutplate
mounting rivets that were covered by the antennas. Here's a link on the
freedomflyers.com site and my locations match those shown (for comm and transponder).
You can't really move the antennas to the next bay outboard because
the aft ends will extend beyond the fuselage. The access panels in the seat
bottoms are just large enough to get a hand in to reach the cable for whatever
reason. I considered just anchoring it, but figured it wouldn't take long to
make the panels and I'd regret it later if I didn't.
Bob #40105
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I just got the QB fuse and from the looks of it, the instrument panel
ribs are all in place, but, the panel and top skin are only in
with temporary rivets, so it should be easy (I think) to remove the
entire panel assembly and rework the ribs as necessary.
Bob, thanks for reminding me about the bent-whip antenna's under the
rear seats. That's what I plan to do too....I'll need to get my
stuff together and get those access panels cut. I assume you did
one under each side, with maximum side-to-side spacing, but staying
on the flat part of the fuse. Did you just do skin doublers or tied
into the ribs?
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)"
> <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>
> Not sure if you've got your answers yet, but here's my $.02:
>
> Wing: I believe that the QB does not have the bottom skins installed
> - at least the outboard skin. That makes everything accessible. In
> fact, that's the stage that most people would be running their
> wiring, installing the AP servo, pitot tube, etc. I notice that in
> Tim's write-up on the Duckworth HID lights, his take was that it was
> easier to install with the leading edge already assembled. Same is
> true of the PSS AOA system pressure ports. Van's does not yet have
> the capacitance fuel senders available for the -10. There are other
> probes that could be adapted but since the QB has the tank sealed up
> (rear baffle installed) there's no access to do anything except
> install the float senders. If you go with the SB (I did) I concur
> with what others have said, there are two wings and therefore all of
> the work is duplicated, upside is that it frequently goes much faster
> the second time. It is however very straight forward, just lots of
> it! While sealing the fuel tanks wasn't my f! avorite job, it wasn't
> really all that bad. Other memorable part was countersinking the
> main spars (a lot of holes!). Last comment - it's probably faster to
> build both wings at the same time rather than in a serial fashion.
>
> Fuselage: I also have the slow build fuselage and am at about the
> stage of where the quickbuild is when delivered. My observation is
> that it's more complicated and somewhat more difficult than either
> the wings or tail kits. Things that come to mind are the bending
> and twisting of the longerons (hopefully later versions of the manual
> have correct measurements...), there's a few rivets that are very
> difficult to get to, etc. I don't really see how the QB would limit
> battery location - standard location is in the tailcone and the parts
> are delivered with that part of the kit. Not sure what additional
> storage you might want - the only places that come to mind would be
> below the baggage floor (ala Dan Checkoway) or in the tailcone. The
> QB baggage floors won't be attached yet because access is needed to
> attach the tailcone so you've got access to run conduit, etc. The
> rear baggage bulkhead is also part of the tail kit so nothing will
> have been done on that either. A couple things th! at come to mind
> that would potentially cause a little extra work: - If the instrument
> subpanel and associated ribs are installed as part of the QB (don't
> know if they are - can somebody with a QB fuselage confirm?). It is
> a virtual certainty that you'll have to cut out & reinforce part of
> the subpanel for avionics clearance. This would be much easier to do
> on a workbench. - I installed my bent whip comm antennas below the
> rear seats. I put in doublers for the bottom skin and made small
> access panels in the seat bottoms for access to the connectors in the
> future. This would be much more difficult if the rear seat bottoms
> were already installed.
>
> If I was set on getting part of the kit QB and could only pick one
> I'd probably go with the fuselage. I elected to go SB for both wings
> and fuselage just because I'm enjoying the process so much!
>
> Bob #40105
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John
> Jessen Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 1:49 PM To:
> rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase
> Question
>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
>
> Thanks, everyone, for helping me on this task. I am a little more
> confused than before, but that's the beauty of getting everyone's
> opinion. Here's what I have so far, along with questions.
>
> In favor of slow wing:
>
> You get to add wiring, do other modifications that maybe you couldn't
> with the QB. Downside is that you get to do repetitious work and
> have to deal with the tanks. Questions: Does going with QB wings
> really eliminate being able to put wiring in that you'd like to have
> for antennae, HID lights, flasher lights, heated pitot, AOA, etc? Is
> the ability to add edge lighting in the wing taken away by going with
> the QB? Also, can you not have (and why would you?) capacitance fuel
> sensors with the QB?
>
> In favor of the slow fuselage:
>
> You don't get as bored as with the wings, you don't have to deal with
> the tanks, you can do modifications that you wouldn't be able to do
> with the QB, such as battery placement, storage areas, etc.
> Questions: What are folks averaging in hours to put together the
> slow build fuselage? Is it significantly greater than for the wings?
> Are there jigs or special tools required, or is it just as "straight
> forward" as doing the Empcone? What modifications are people doing
> that really require you to go the Slow Build route?
>
> I figure that the answers here will help out not only myself, but a
> few others who have purchased the Empcone, but who are wondering what
> build strategy to adopt next.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> John Jessen -> Empcone 1%
>
> -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:42 AM To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
>
>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
>
> I'll second the tiresome or at times boring part of the
> wings...finish a part...then do it again. Anyone noticed that the
> right wing parts come out a tad better than the left wing?...I guess
> practice makes perfect. I must admit though that finishing the tanks
> really felt good!!
>
> Rick S. 40185 Flaps
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 46
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| Subject: | Quickbuild Purchase Question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Mine are very similar to those shown on this web site:
http://freedomflyers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60
No reason they couldn't be tied in to the adjacent ribs if desired.
Bob #40105
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Bob, do you have any photos of your antenna doublers? I look forward to
QB Fuselage owners commenting on the instrument panel rib modifications
when they get there.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob
(US SSA)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Quickbuild Purchase Question
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)"
<bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Not sure if you've got your answers yet, but here's my $.02:
Wing:
I believe that the QB does not have the bottom skins installed - at
least the outboard skin. That makes everything accessible. In fact,
that's the stage that most people would be running their wiring,
installing the AP servo, pitot tube, etc. I notice that in Tim's
write-up on the Duckworth HID lights, his take was that it was easier to
install with the leading edge already assembled. Same is true of the
PSS AOA system pressure ports. Van's does not yet have the capacitance
fuel senders available for the -10. There are other probes that could
be adapted but since the QB has the tank sealed up (rear baffle
installed) there's no access to do anything except install the float
senders. If you go with the SB (I did) I concur with what others have
said, there are two wings and therefore all of the work is duplicated,
upside is that it frequently goes much faster the second time. It is
however very straight forward, just lots of it! While sealing the fuel
tanks wasn't my f!
avorite job, it wasn't really all that bad. Other memorable part was
countersinking the main spars (a lot of holes!). Last comment - it's
probably faster to build both wings at the same time rather than in a
serial fashion.
Fuselage:
I also have the slow build fuselage and am at about the stage of where
the quickbuild is when delivered. My observation is that it's more
complicated and somewhat more difficult than either the wings or tail
kits. Things that come to mind are the bending and twisting of the
longerons (hopefully later versions of the manual have correct
measurements...), there's a few rivets that are very difficult to get
to, etc. I don't really see how the QB would limit battery location -
standard location is in the tailcone and the parts are delivered with
that part of the kit. Not sure what additional storage you might want -
the only places that come to mind would be below the baggage floor (ala
Dan Checkoway) or in the tailcone. The QB baggage floors won't be
attached yet because access is needed to attach the tailcone so you've
got access to run conduit, etc. The rear baggage bulkhead is also part
of the tail kit so nothing will have been done on that either. A couple
things th!
at come to mind that would potentially cause a little extra work:
- If the instrument subpanel and associated ribs are installed as part
of the QB (don't know if they are - can somebody with a QB fuselage
confirm?). It is a virtual certainty that you'll have to cut out &
reinforce part of the subpanel for avionics clearance. This would be
much easier to do on a workbench.
- I installed my bent whip comm antennas below the rear seats. I put in
doublers for the bottom skin and made small access panels in the seat
bottoms for access to the connectors in the future. This would be much
more difficult if the rear seat bottoms were already installed.
If I was set on getting part of the kit QB and could only pick one I'd
probably go with the fuselage. I elected to go SB for both wings and
fuselage just because I'm enjoying the process so much!
Bob #40105
Message 47
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|
| Subject: | Pneumatic rivet squeezers |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Robert G. Wright" <armywrights@adelphia.net>
I had one of my few brain children on the practice kit, and wondering if any
of you have used it on the real thing:
I drilled a hole in one of my workbench tops, put one side of a dimple die
in the hole, and used the post from my C-frame with the other end of the
dimple die in it. Then I dimpled as normal on skins that wouldn't fit into
the C-frame. I just had to be careful to hold the post perpendicular to the
workbench when I whacked it, and support the skin as I slid it over the die.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Pneumatic rivet squeezers
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
They will make an extra hole in ANY part....just have to pay attention while
your doing it, or as Brian says..."your head in the game"
Rick S.
40185
Wings
Message 48
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Not happy to hear that, just bought one for my CH701!
Bob Spudis
Do not archive
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