Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:01 AM - Re: stupid compressor tricks (linn walters)
2. 06:13 AM - RV-10 Line Drawing (Doerr, Ray R [NTK])
3. 06:21 AM - Antenna (was Alternator?) (Larry)
4. 06:40 AM - Re: RV-10 Line Drawing (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com)
5. 06:51 AM - Re: RV-10 Line Drawing (Tim Olson)
6. 07:24 AM - Re: RV-10 Line Drawing (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
7. 07:35 AM - Re: stupid compressor tricks (Dj Merrill)
8. 07:51 AM - Re: Re: Capacitance fuel senders (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com)
9. 08:25 AM - Randy's Air-2-Air video updated (Tim Olson)
10. 08:51 AM - Re: Engine Mount Ears (Jesse Saint)
11. 09:34 AM - Re: stupid compressor tricks (James Ochs)
12. 09:49 AM - Re: stupid compressor tricks (linn walters)
13. 09:56 AM - Re: stupid compressor tricks (linn walters)
14. 10:22 AM - Re: Oxygen systems (William Curtis)
15. 10:58 AM - Alternative to conventional kit shipping (Brian)
16. 11:01 AM - Re: Alternative to conventional kit shipping (Brian)
17. 11:12 AM - Re: Re: Oxygen systems (Tim Olson)
18. 12:00 PM - Re: stupid compressor tricks (John Jessen)
19. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: Oxygen systems (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
20. 01:59 PM - Performance Comparison (Scott Schmidt)
21. 02:15 PM - Re: Performance Comparison (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
22. 02:54 PM - Re: Performance Comparison (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
23. 03:17 PM - Re: Performance Comparison (James Ochs)
24. 03:25 PM - Re: Performance Comparison (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com)
25. 03:27 PM - Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Olson)
26. 03:41 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
27. 04:47 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Olson)
28. 04:59 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (RobHickman@aol.com)
29. 06:25 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Wayne Edgerton)
30. 06:53 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Olson)
31. 07:20 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Wayne Edgerton)
32. 07:22 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Wayne Edgerton)
33. 07:36 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (William Curtis)
34. 07:36 PM - compressor tricks (Rick Lark)
35. 07:44 PM - Emailing: Chelton Panel (Mark)
36. 08:12 PM - Re: Emailing: Chelton Panel (Richard Sipp)
37. 08:15 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Larry)
38. 08:21 PM - Re: compressor tricks (Mark Grieve)
39. 08:27 PM - Re: Emailing: Chelton Panel (Larry)
40. 08:58 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
41. 09:09 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Olson)
42. 09:09 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
43. 09:12 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
44. 09:22 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
45. 09:37 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Olson)
46. 09:40 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Larry)
47. 09:58 PM - Re: Emailing: Chelton Panel (Tim Olson)
48. 09:59 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Olson)
49. 10:00 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Olson)
50. 10:05 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Olson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: stupid compressor tricks |
NYTerminat@aol.com wrote:
> Harbor Freight and Salvage makes an automatic drain valve that is
> inexpensive. I bought one but have not installed it yet.
>
> Bob Spudis
I have installed mine, and it works really well. Installation requires
you to break into the pressure line between tank and pressure release.
I removed my tube intact and replaced it with a copper line with the 'T'
in it and retained the original aluminum tube just in case I wanted to
return it to it's original state. I still have a purge valve installed
between the tank and the drain valve to allow manual draining ..... and
it's usually dry. One other thing I do is add a few drops of tube oil
(your rag and tube airplane makers have some) into the air intake on the
compressor to lube the top end (can't hurt) and also to put it into the
tank to slow down the rusting process from the condensed water.
Linn
do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | RV-10 Line Drawing |
Does anyone have a RV-10 line drawing (both side and top
view) they can email me. I want to start thinking about paint scheme's.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com
40250
Message 3
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| Subject: | Antenna (was Alternator?) |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
Long post, but sometimes there is too much information
I do not think the dual nav and com antennas is over kill.
Below you will find a a bunch of recent posts on antenna selection and
antenna doublers and what I am thinking of using.
Com - Bent whip Dorne & Margolin here:
<http://www.steinair.com/avionics.htm> or a Comant CI-122 here:
<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/com_comant.php> probably
2, one for each com
Nav & Marker Beacon - Bob Archer's Sportcraft NAV antenna from Bob
Archer. bobsantennas@earthlink.com
(310) 316-8796 info here:
<http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/bob_archer.htm>
GPS & XM Radio - Nothing special, just mounted on the dash
Transponder - TED Transponder Antenna (similar to Comant CI-101) ACS has
one for $19.95 here:
<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/ted_transponder.php>
StineAir has one for $26 here: <http://www.steinair.com/avionics.htm>
Hay Stine why is yours more expensive?
Also there a Comant fin type Transponder antenna like th CI 305, but
they are like $175. Is it worth it?
Larry Rosen
Waiting on QB Wings
Other posts:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Today I ordered some of my antennas, but didn't get them all because
I have some questions.
I ordered:
2 Comant CI-122 Bent Whip Com antennas for the belly
1 TED Transponder antenna (similar to Comant CI-101)
1 Comant Marker Beacon antenna CI-102
My plan for the NAV/GS is to put a Comant Cat Whiskers
antenna on the top of the Vertical Stab. I was thinking
the CI-157P. Is there a better suggestion?
I was also planning to get a Nav Coupler to split the
NAV's into 2 signals, but I'm not sure if you can also
split the Glideslope into 2 signals. Any tips there
would be appreciated. I'm going with an SL-30 and GNS-480,
by the way, and I know that some of those have the ability
to split the signals built right in.
It is possible, since I know that when you couple the
antennas like that, you actually "share" the signal, so you
don't get the full power to each radio, that I'll do something
else like put a Bob Archer Nav/GS antenna in the Right wingtip
also, so I don't have to couple the Nav/GS signals. If that's
the better option, point me in that direction...it's probably
as cheap as a coupler anyway.
As for the GPS antenna, I talked to Comant at SNF and they mentioned
that even though my GNS-480 will come with an antenna, I would be
better off with a GPS/XM radio antenna like the CI-420-420...since
I plan to have XM weather on my MX-20 (or GRT EFIS). That one
is still up in the air.
Any other recommendations always appreciated. As you can tell though,
I'm not against the porcupine look, so don't bother talking me into
concealed antennas just for the sake of hiding them. My main goal
is the strongest, clearest, most reliable signal.....then I'll
think about cosmetics.
Tim
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Current project: Fuselage
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jim Ayers" <LessDragProd@aol.com>
It would be a lot cheaper just to glue a $20 XM antenna to your
dashboard instead of paying COMANT $$ for a combined antenna.
That's the beauty of a non-certified install . . .
TDT
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
Hi All,
The best operating NAV antenna installation available is Bob Archer's
Sportcraft NAV antenna. Nothing works better than this.
It also happens to be installed in the wingtip. You can install one in
each wingtip for each radio. (No you can not joint them together.
There is a node for every two feet of wingspan.)
You can also install one of Bob's Marker Beacon antenna kit in one of
the wingtips. Or he can tell you how to make your own from a piece of coax.
Nav antenna $65 each
Marker Beacon antenna kit $25 each
from Bob Archer. bobsantennas@earthlink.com
(310) 316-8796
Regards,
Jim Ayers
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)"
<bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Tim,
I will likely have te same radios as you but opted for an Archer nav
antenna in each wingtip to avoid aving to split the signal (loss). I
also went w/Bob Archer's suggestion of the MB in the wingtip - it's a
53" section of coax w/ the shielding removed. That leaves the only
exposed antennas as a pair of CI-122 bent whips for comms, a CI-105 for
the transponder and GPS antenna(s).
I'm out of town right now but will definitely do more research into the
potential doubler issue tis weekend. If it is indeed an issue it won't
be a huge problem to fix, just time...
Bob #40105
Bob
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
Cosmetics Aside, I'd use the Archer wingtip version for BOTH the NAV & Mkr
Beacon. They perform beatifully, and Bob can give you some details as to
why his Mkr Beacon antenna actually will out-perform the slet/boat type
antennas. Heck, for the price, put one NAV antenna in each wingtip, then
forget about all the diplexer/splitter headache.
I also agree with the previous lister, I wouldn't bother with the combined
XM/GPS antenna...it's more of a marketing gimmic than a real huge advantage.
Also, good decision on the bent whip. You'll be hard pressed to find a
better performing antenna on these RV's. Both the D&M as well as the Comat
perform very well.
Just my 2 cents (and no...I'm not selling the Archer antennas...yet)!
Cheers,
Stein.
--> RV10-List message posted by: Sean Stephens
Here's a little blurb from Bob regarding Antennas...
http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/bob_archer.htm
-Sean
What you really need is a flush mount transponder antenna. That way you
don't have that draggy 4" long antenna hanging out the bottom. :-)
Regards,
Jim Ayers
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
We are going with a Bob Archer NAV in one wingtip and a COM in the other.
We have our GPS antenna going on the dash. We have another COM antenna off
a Mooney (aerodynamic - no round surfaces causing lots of drag) going on the
belly with a Transponder fin and a Marker Beacon boat. There will be no
holes on the top of our airplane to have to seal. Only three antennas will
be external. We are putting the ELT in the tail under the VS/HS fairing.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
Also a post on antenna doublers
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
A properly prepared doubler (compliant with AC 43.13-2A) is usually tied
into the adjacent ribs and or J stiffeners. That is a feature which
might get addressed sooner in the antenna selection (location) process
for the SB guys. The tie-in is to relieve skin stress, flex and oil
canning from the antennae drag coefficient. Let me know how you and the
rest of the QB guys solve it Tim.
John
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)"
<bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Tim,
I just did doublers on the skin between the ribs and didn't tie them
into the ribs. I put nutplates on the doublers and attached them to the
skin via the nutplate mounting rivets that were covered by the
antennas. Here's a link on the freedomflyers.com site and my locations
match those shown (for comm and transponder). You can't really move the
antennas to the next bay outboard because the aft ends will extend
beyond the fuselage. The access panels in the seat bottoms are just
large enough to get a hand in to reach the cable for whatever reason. I
considered just anchoring it, but figured it wouldn't take long to make
the panels and I'd regret it later if I didn't.
link:
http://freedomflyers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60
Bob #40105
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Thanks Niko, that's why it is not optional for A & P mechanics or
Avionics Installers. The Feds found that it will happen, its just a
matter of when. The tragedy is that the skin that fails is so large in
dimension to replace on an RV-10, it has to be done with an unsightly
exterior patch. If it is planned for, we get to learn to make a joggle
and change the rivets out to a longer length, while using the matched
holes provided by the CNC instructions.
I guess new builders do not understand the importance of antennae
selection and location much earlier in this process.
John
McGANN, Ron wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: "McGANN, Ron" <ron.mcgann@baesystems.com>
>
>G'day all,
>
>Currently planning my antenna installation. I will be going with a GNS430
>and SL30 for all Nav/Comms. Bent whip on belly, straight whip on top for
>comms. I will be using the Archer nav antenna(s) in the wingtip. I was
>thinking of one in each side for dual redundancy and optimum performance.
>Is this overkill?
>
>I also notice that there is not much info in the way of installation
>material for Garmin products on the Garmin website. Anyone know of a source
>of such material?
>
>TIA
>Ron
>40187 Wings
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | RV-10 Line Drawing |
Here you go
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R
[NTK]
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Line Drawing
Does anyone have a RV-10 line drawing (both side and top
view) they can email me. I want to start thinking about paint scheme's.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com
40250
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Line Drawing |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Will any of these work for you?
http://www.myrv10.com/miscphotos/rv_drawings/index.html
or
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/paint/RV10Paint_LineDrawing.jpg
I made the last one from one of the original photos.
Tim
Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:
> Does anyone have a RV-10 line drawing (both side and top
> view) they can email me. I want to start thinking about paint schemes.
>
>
>
> Thank You
> *Ray Doerr*
> Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com
>
> 40250
>
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 6
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| Subject: | RV-10 Line Drawing |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
I also still have the engineers working on making a solid works model so
we can wrap skins, but they are having issues on round surfaces and
making the skin wrap. Beyond my ability with the software, I am a
network admin, once the app opens my job is done. When they get it done
I will give it to Tim to post for everyone.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Line Drawing
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Will any of these work for you?
http://www.myrv10.com/miscphotos/rv_drawings/index.html
or
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/paint/RV10Paint_LineDrawing.jpg
I made the last one from one of the original photos.
Tim
Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:
> Does anyone have a RV-10 line drawing (both side and top
> view) they can email me. I want to start thinking about paint
scheme's.
>
>
>
> Thank You
> *Ray Doerr*
> Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com
>
> 40250
>
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: stupid compressor tricks |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
NYTerminat@aol.com wrote:
> Harbor Freight and Salvage makes an automatic drain valve that is
> inexpensive. I bought one but have not installed it yet.
>
I looked at the two they offer, and unless I mis-read,
they were limited to 100psi. My compressor normalizes at
120psi, so I didn't think I could use either of them.
-Dj
Message 8
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| Subject: | RE: Capacitance fuel senders |
When fuel quantity is concerned, I believe a belt and suspenders approach is
warranted. I have capacitance senders, I shall install a fuel totalizer, but
my real back up is an independent low fuel sensor on each tank which turns
on when the level is below a certain minimum. It is an optical device which
turns a light on when not covered with fuel. It has a circuit which dampens
things so that occasional low levels as the airplane gets bumped around
should not trigger a low fuel warning. I pegged the warning level such that
at a 15=B0forward incline would cause the pickup tube to pull air instead of
fuel. This should give me 2 or three gallons worth of fuel when horizontal.
My thinking is that if the light turns on when expected =96 all is fine =96 but
if one light turns on prematurely (one per tank), then there must be a leak
some place =96 probably with one of the tanks, and I should bee line it to the
nearest airport.
Mich=E8le
RV8 - Fuselage
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis
Subject: RV10-List: RE: Capacitance fuel senders
> I decided to go with totalizers, and not put senders in the tanks.
> After a short learning session, they will be more accurate than either
> type of Fuel sender..
> Bob K
Bob,
Totalizers are fine and I plan to use one also but they don=92t tell you if
you have a leak. I would still put in the resistive senders. In the old days
before the Flowscan, accurate readings from capacitance senders were
preferred. Today resistance senders AND totalizers are fine.
Do not archive
William
#40237
Message 9
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| Subject: | Randy's Air-2-Air video updated |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Randy got me his whole Air-2-air video and I got it up
now. I'd suggest the .wmv format version if possible.
It'll take much less time to download.
Grab them from here:
http://www.myrv10.com/N610RV/index.html
Bruce is sending me more ground footage, and I may even
get some in-cockpit footage shortly.
Tim
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Current project: Fuselage
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 10
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| Subject: | Engine Mount Ears |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
Does anybody know the torque values for the engine mount ears? We have our
correct ones here now and are ready to put them on.
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Engine Mount Ears
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
The issue is that not all IO-540's have the same mounting brackets (ears,
bosses, legs, "whatever name you prefer for them"). Van's website says that
any parallel valve IO-540 will work, which is right, but some of them will
need new ears to fit their engine mount. They just realized that this was
an issue that some customers will have to work out. I guess they have never
done anything with an IO-540 until now, and since so few of their customers
for the -10 have engines mounted, they didn't find out about the ear issue
until recently.
Does that help? I found a set for $400 already tested and painted, but I
spent all morning calling around the country to find them. It seems that
the large-hole ears are more plentiful than the small-hole ones, which is
what we need. It would be nice if they would make another engine mount
option for these other mounts. It would not take much engineering to modify
the angle of the mount holes. The bigger ears would provide more "cushion"
for the engine, as seems to be the consensus of all the people I talked to.
I would much rather the need to pick which engine mount I need than to have
to modify my engine.
Well, that's my rant for today. Time to get the plane scuffed for the paint
shop this afternoon. It's coming together! Oshkosh here we come (knock on
wood).
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Engine Mount Ears
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Can you define "issue" ??
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Current project: Fuselage
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Jesse Saint wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
>
> I got an IO-540 C4B5 off an Aztec. Van's said that they have just found
out
> that there is an issue with this and don't have any immediate plans to
make
> an engine mount for the other version. That's a little disappointing.
>
> Jesse Saint
> I-TEC, Inc.
> jesse@itecusa.org
> www.itecusa.org
> W: 352-465-4545
> C: 352-427-0285
> F: 815-377-3694
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Hall
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 3:19 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Engine Mount Ears
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Phil Hall <phil@asibuildings.com>
>
> Jesse,
>
> What model # engine do you have? I am hoping I don't have the same
problem.
>
> Phil
> 40122
>
> At 05:42 PM 5/22/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>>We bought a TBO engine off an Aztec and had it rebuilt. We were working
>
> on
>
>>hanging our engine on Saturday and it didn t seem to line up. It took
>
> about
>
>>an hour for us to realize that it wasn t just our imagination, but the
>
> engine
>
>>didn t fit the mount. It was close, but the holes on the engine ears were
>
> a
>
>>lot bigger that the rubbers were made for and the angle of the engine
>
> mount
>
>>from Van s and the engine ears were not the same, although they were in
>
> the
>
>>right location. Has anybody else heard about this? Do we have the wrong
>>engine? Are there different ears that we can buy and bolt onto the engine
>>that will fit? I can send pictures, but first wanted to know if this is a
>>common (or at least heard of before) problem.
>>
>>
>>
>>It s hard to fly to Oshkosh with and engine that won t mount correctly.
>
> We
>
>>are getting down to the line as far as being flying in time to get it
>
> there.
>
>>It s on the gear and getting painted this week. Panel is assembled and
>>getting wired up. It s time to get the non-Van s stuff on and hooked up.
>>Any help would be appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>>Jesse Saint
>>
>>I-TEC, Inc.
>>
>><mailto:jesse@itecusa.org>jesse@itecusa.org
>>
>>www.itecusa.org
>>
>>W: 352-465-4545
>>
>>C: 352-427-0285
>>
>>F: 815-377-3694
>>
>>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: stupid compressor tricks |
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
I looked at the harbor freight one last night on-line and it looks like
the either they system or the hose that comes with it is only rated to
100psi. My compresser charges to ~140psi+... Is it just the hose? Does
the hose just act as a drain line and is not normally pressurized?
I'm thinking I'll just get some brass fittings at Home Despot or
something and roll my own drain valve ;)
James
linn walters wrote:
> NYTerminat@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Harbor Freight and Salvage makes an automatic drain valve that is
>> inexpensive. I bought one but have not installed it yet.
>> Bob Spudis
>
> I have installed mine, and it works really well. Installation requires
> you to break into the pressure line between tank and pressure release.
> I removed my tube intact and replaced it with a copper line with the
> 'T' in it and retained the original aluminum tube just in case I
> wanted to return it to it's original state. I still have a purge valve
> installed between the tank and the drain valve to allow manual
> draining ..... and it's usually dry. One other thing I do is add a few
> drops of tube oil (your rag and tube airplane makers have some) into
> the air intake on the compressor to lube the top end (can't hurt) and
> also to put it into the tank to slow down the rusting process from the
> condensed water.
> Linn
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
--
There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself
at the ground and miss. Douglas Adams, 'The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy'
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: stupid compressor tricks |
--> RV10-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
James Ochs wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
>
> I looked at the harbor freight one last night on-line and it looks
> like the either they system or the hose that comes with it is only
> rated to 100psi.
It's the plastic hose. On my installation, the plastic hose goes from
the 'T' in the pressure relief line about 5 feet down to the drain
valve. In the bottom of the tank (mine is one of the upright models) I
have a 90 and a 8" piece of pipe to connect to a 'T' and then to the
auto drain valve. The other leg of the 'T' goes to a ball valve for a
manual drain. Could have saved the money of the 'T', fittings and
valve!!! It works well. My compressor only gets up to 110 Lbs.
although I'm sure I could boost it up higher. I don't see the need.
> My compresser charges to ~140psi+... Is it just the hose?
It appears so. I haven't looked at my hose to check, but it's what came
with the kit so I think it is.
> Does the hose just act as a drain line and is not normally pressurized?
Nope, it's under pressure.
> I'm thinking I'll just get some brass fittings at Home Despot or
> something and roll my own drain valve ;)
That sure would solve the 'problem'.
Linn
do not archive
>
>
> James
>
> linn walters wrote:
>
>> NYTerminat@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> Harbor Freight and Salvage makes an automatic drain valve that is
>>> inexpensive. I bought one but have not installed it yet.
>>> Bob Spudis
>>
>>
>> I have installed mine, and it works really well. Installation
>> requires you to break into the pressure line between tank and
>> pressure release. I removed my tube intact and replaced it with a
>> copper line with the 'T' in it and retained the original aluminum
>> tube just in case I wanted to return it to it's original state. I
>> still have a purge valve installed between the tank and the drain
>> valve to allow manual draining ..... and it's usually dry. One other
>> thing I do is add a few drops of tube oil (your rag and tube airplane
>> makers have some) into the air intake on the compressor to lube the
>> top end (can't hurt) and also to put it into the tank to slow down
>> the rusting process from the condensed water.
>> Linn
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: stupid compressor tricks |
--> RV10-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Dj Merrill wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
>
> NYTerminat@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Harbor Freight and Salvage makes an automatic drain valve that is
>> inexpensive. I bought one but have not installed it yet.
>>
>
>
> I looked at the two they offer, and unless I mis-read,
> they were limited to 100psi. My compressor normalizes at
> 120psi, so I didn't think I could use either of them.
Damn, I wish you hadn't said that!!! Now I'm going to have to take mine
out. Nah, I think I'll leave it in there ..... been in there for 2-3
years. BTW, the plastic hose is what's rated at 100 PSI.
Linn
>
>
> -Dj
>
>
--
Message 14
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| Subject: | RE: Oxygen systems |
I've been looking at built-in Oxygen systems also. I also thought the 6K+ MH system
was a bit steep. I did find this from Aerox. $1500 to 2000 system.
http://www.aerox.com/Prior%20Site/BuiltInSystems.html#003
If one wanted to plumb for O2 but not initially install it, what type of line are
typically used for O2 systems? Copper, Aluminum?
William
#40237 - wings
http://members.core.com/~wcurtis/RV/
Message 15
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| Subject: | Alternative to conventional kit shipping |
I have been agonizing over the prospect of having my QB -10 kit shipped via traditional
freight given the number of problems discussed in this group (not to
mention the damage to my own empennage kit last fall). Today I was browsing the
vansairforce.net sight and came across this post:
http://www.vansairforce.net/Graphics/PartainTruckingCo.htm
I spoke to Tony today and added my name to his schedule for delivering my -10QB.
He is a super guy to talk to and a fellow RV builder. Even better is the money
I will save. His rate was competitive with the trucking company and I don't
have to pay Van's $1K for crating and be left with all the packing material
to dispose of. Even better is that he will deliver to my home on a tralier
that's easily to get out of. He is not limiting his routes to the states listed
on this link.
Brian Sutherland
#40308 tailcone almost complete
Nashville, TN
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative to conventional kit shipping |
More detailed contact info for Partain Trucking...
Tony Partain
Partain Transport Company
2512 NW Ordway Ave
Bend OR 97701
800-774-0828 watts
541-330-0828 local
541-330-0831 fax
541-749-0835 cell
tpartain@bendbroadband.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 12:57 PM
Subject: Alternative to conventional kit shipping
I have been agonizing over the prospect of having my QB -10 kit shipped via traditional
freight given the number of problems discussed in this group (not to
mention the damage to my own empennage kit last fall). Today I was browsing
the vansairforce.net sight and came across this post:
http://www.vansairforce.net/Graphics/PartainTruckingCo.htm
I spoke to Tony today and added my name to his schedule for delivering my -10QB.
He is a super guy to talk to and a fellow RV builder. Even better is the
money I will save. His rate was competitive with the trucking company and I
don't have to pay Van's $1K for crating and be left with all the packing material
to dispose of. Even better is that he will deliver to my home on a tralier
that's easily to get out of. He is not limiting his routes to the states listed
on this link.
Brian Sutherland
#40308 tailcone almost complete
Nashville, TN
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Oxygen systems |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Nothing so extravagant for O2 systems. They usually use Vinyl
or Tygon type stuff. I'm sure you could plumb it with your
regular 1/4" plastic hose if you wanted to. I'm not knowledgeable
about Aviation O2 systems....but I used O2 systems quite a bit
related to mixed-gas SCUBA diving. O2 is pretty easy to manage
until you start to put it under some good pressure. If you were
trying to run cylinder pressures to a remote regulator, yeah,
you'd be looking at doing some copper lines. If it's very low
pressure O2 like what would be used in cannula delivery, it's
gonna be just like those hoses used in the big airliners that
hold the dropdown masks....
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
William Curtis wrote:
> I've been looking at built-in Oxygen systems also. I also thought the
> 6K+ MH system was a bit steep. I did find this from Aerox. $1500 to 2000
> system.
>
> http://www.aerox.com/Prior%20Site/BuiltInSystems.html#003
>
> If one wanted to plumb for O2 but not initially install it, what type of
> line are typically used for O2 systems? Copper, Aluminum?
> William
> #40237 - wings
> http://members.core.com/~wcurtis/RV/
Message 18
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| Subject: | stupid compressor tricks |
Harbor Freight link
http://order.harborfreight.com/EasyAsk/harborfreight/results.jsp?ts=Thu%20Ma
y%2026%2011:57:06%20PDT%202005
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
NYTerminat@aol.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: stupid compressor tricks
Harbor Freight and Salvage makes an automatic drain valve that is
inexpensive. I bought one but have not installed it yet.
Bob Spudis
Message 19
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| Subject: | RE: Oxygen systems |
I did do some more digging and finally found the endurance charts on MH's site.
They claim a 7-8 fold increase in endurance using their demand delivery systems.
Based on comments from the Lancair crowd and some other sites, I believe
that this is probably true. For me it is important to be able to possibly supply
4 people for up to 20 hours off of a single fill at around 18,000 feet.
That should cover me in 90% of all scenarios and allow me to fill from an industrial
tank at home myself.
For plumbing, MH is low pressure in all tubing and most of the connections and
lines are barbed and plastic respectively. Personally, I do not like the idea
of HP oxygen running around through the cockpit. Gives me the willies. The only
plumbing that would be high pressure would be a remote fill for a permanent
install and that would have to be metal.
I really like the flexibility the EDS4ip provides along with the endurance. Some
people seemed concerned about the saturation levels being too low but most
people that checked it with a pulse ox meter showed constantly above 90%. I really
wish it wasn't so costly but I'm thinking it would be worth the investment.
Michael
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis
Subject: RV10-List: RE: Oxygen systems
I've been looking at built-in Oxygen systems also. I also thought the 6K+ MH system
was a bit steep. I did find this from Aerox. $1500 to 2000 system.
http://www.aerox.com/Prior%20Site/BuiltInSystems.html#003
If one wanted to plumb for O2 but not initially install it, what type of line are
typically used for O2 systems? Copper, Aluminum?
William
#40237 - wings
http://members.core.com/~wcurtis/RV/
Message 20
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| Subject: | Performance Comparison |
Check out this performance comparison I did with the RV-10, SR-20,
SR-22, and 182.
http://www.freedomflyers.com/Performance%20Comparison.ppt
The RV-10 is a great all-around plane.
I have updated my website and been working on it for a little while.
The RV-10 has been so easy to build up to this point that I don't think
we have needed much help. The manuals have been great. Anyway, now that
I am getting to the finishing work I will start to document the work in
more detail. www.freedomflyers.com <http://www.freedomflyers.com/>
Scott Schmidt (#40111, FWF and Finishing Kit)
Salt Lake City, UT
Cell: 801-319-3094
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
Message 21
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| Subject: | Performance Comparison |
Nice comparison. I was comparing the RV-10 to the Piper Seneca twin the other
day and the numbers were close in a lot of ways . . . EXCEPT PRICE!
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Subject: RV10-List: Performance Comparison
Check out this performance comparison I did with the RV-10, SR-20, SR-22, and 182. http://www.freedomflyers.com/Performance%20Comparison.ppt
The RV-10 is a great all-around plane.
I have updated my website and been working on it for a little while. The RV-10 has been so easy to build up to this point that I don't think we have needed much help. The manuals have been great. Anyway, now that I am getting to the finishing work I will start to document the work in more detail. www.freedomflyers.com <http://www.freedomflyers.com/>
Scott Schmidt (#40111, FWF and Finishing Kit)
Salt Lake City, UT
Cell: 801-319-3094
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
Message 22
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| Subject: | Performance Comparison |
Scott:
How about adding fuel burn and stall speeds to your charts?
TDT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Subject: RV10-List: Performance Comparison
Check out this performance comparison I did with the RV-10, SR-20, SR-22, and 182. http://www.freedomflyers.com/Performance%20Comparison.ppt
The RV-10 is a great all-around plane.
I have updated my website and been working on it for a little while. The RV-10 has been so easy to build up to this point that I don't think we have needed much help. The manuals have been great. Anyway, now that I am getting to the finishing work I will start to document the work in more detail. www.freedomflyers.com <http://www.freedomflyers.com/>
Scott Schmidt (#40111, FWF and Finishing Kit)
Salt Lake City, UT
Cell: 801-319-3094
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Performance Comparison |
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
I just had to laugh yesterday when I read the performance specs on the
Beechcraft B55 Baron in AOPA Pilots article this month... I know it's
got a higher useful load and six seats buuttt just for fun the cruise is
188Kts@77% power at a 13.x gph fuel flow (I forget the exact number) and
climb speed is something like 1800fpm. Range at 77% is 800NM. Sounds
like the -10 doesn't it? <grin> BTW, that fuel flow number was for EACH
engine... total was somewhere around 27gph.
Yah, i know, different animal... but still ;)
Do Not Archive
James
#40400
finishing up rudder
Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
> Scott:
> How about adding fuel burn and stall speeds to your charts?
> TDT
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]*On Behalf Of *Scott
> Schmidt
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:59 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Performance Comparison
>
> Check out this performance comparison I did with the RV-10, SR-20,
> SR-22, and 182.
> http://www.freedomflyers.com/Performance%20Comparison.ppt
>
> The RV-10 is a great all-around plane.
>
> I have updated my website and been working on it for a little
> while. The RV-10 has been so easy to build up to this point that I
> dont think we have needed much help. The manuals have been great.
> Anyway, now that I am getting to the finishing work I will start
> to document the work in more detail. www.freedomflyers.com
> <http://www.freedomflyers.com/>
>
> Scott Schmidt (#40111, FWF and Finishing Kit)
>
> Salt Lake City, UT
>
> Cell: 801-319-3094
>
> sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
>
--
There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself
at the ground and miss. Douglas Adams, 'The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy'
Message 24
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| Subject: | Performance Comparison |
Good idea.
OK here is what I have for stall speed:
RV-10 63 mph
182 56 mph
SR-20 62 mph
SR-22 62 mph
What do you think for fuel burn for each? They don't list these
numbers?
Fuel Burn
RV-10
182
SR-20
SR-22
Scott Schmidt
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Dawson-Townsend
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Performance Comparison
Scott:
How about adding fuel burn and stall speeds to your charts?
TDT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:59 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: Performance Comparison
Check out this performance comparison I did with the RV-10,
SR-20, SR-22, and 182.
http://www.freedomflyers.com/Performance%20Comparison.ppt
The RV-10 is a great all-around plane.
I have updated my website and been working on it for a little
while. The RV-10 has been so easy to build up to this point that I
don't think we have needed much help. The manuals have been great.
Anyway, now that I am getting to the finishing work I will start to
document the work in more detail. www.freedomflyers.com
<http://www.freedomflyers.com/>
Scott Schmidt (#40111, FWF and Finishing Kit)
Salt Lake City, UT
Cell: 801-319-3094
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
Hey guys,
I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided
to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all
my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you
insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast.
It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton,
who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen
Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak
autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS,
and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list.
My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go
the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel
should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use
that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking
is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me
though, function before beauty.
I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for
in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they
have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with
TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it
working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features
and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon.
A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
SL-30/SL-40
GNS-480/SL-40
GNS-480/SL-30
SL-30/SL-30
Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480
would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers
fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is
that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480.
Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't
add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons
got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other
enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS
which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the
best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an
SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd
want to do WAAS approaches.
So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
Tim
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Current project: Fuselage
Message 26
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| Subject: | Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
Tim:
Looks nice.
One recommendation: How about using 2 1/4 inch backup airspeed, altimeter, and
ADI? I know 2 1/4 inch electric ADIs can be expensive, but how about the 2 1/4
inch TruTrak ADI? It would free up a little space on your panel so it wasn't
so tight, and probably be visually more pleasing.
When you say Chelton has glideslope guidance worked out with the TruTrak, you mean
vertical GPS "glideslope", eh? They don't have ILS integration . . .
P.S. With that tail number, people are going to think you're a Cirrus wanna-be
. . .
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Hey guys,
I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided
to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all
my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you
insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast.
It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton,
who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen
Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak
autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS,
and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list.
My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go
the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel
should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use
that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking
is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me
though, function before beauty.
I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for
in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they
have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with
TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it
working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features
and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon.
A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
SL-30/SL-40
GNS-480/SL-40
GNS-480/SL-30
SL-30/SL-30
Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480
would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers
fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is
that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480.
Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't
add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons
got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other
enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS
which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the
best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an
SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd
want to do WAAS approaches.
So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
Tim
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Current project: Fuselage
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Actually, that's going to be a TruTrak ADI that's in there...just
no version on Epanelbuilder yet.....cool instrument...gonna have
internal battery backup soon too. As for the 2 1/4" stuff,
that was my original plan, but it's hard to find qood quality
precision ASI's that are also small, without being high priced.
And, ideally, if the larger ones fit, I guess why not use them....
'specially if they cost less. I may choose to go the other
way if I find equivalent quality and similar price.
From what I understand, the Chelton will do an ILS, and the GPS
"glideslope" too. It inetgrates with both the NAV and GPS.
GRT is still working out the details of programming between them
and TruTrak right now, and hopefully will have that soon. Currently,
if you get a Digiflight II VSVG, you're really not getting the
second "V"...or is that "G".....whatever, it doesn't do it right
now with the GRT.
Funny you should say that about the Tail number....when I was digging
around for one, every one that ended in "CD" was a Cirrus...and I
couldn't believe that one was available.
My girls are Colleen and Danielle, and this is a 10, for C & D,
so we can take nice trips. :) BUT, it IS quite the poor man's
Cirrus! :)
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"
> <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
>
>
> Tim:
>
> Looks nice.
>
> One recommendation: How about using 2 1/4 inch backup airspeed,
> altimeter, and ADI? I know 2 1/4 inch electric ADIs can be
> expensive, but how about the 2 1/4 inch TruTrak ADI? It would free
> up a little space on your panel so it wasn't so tight, and probably
> be visually more pleasing.
>
> When you say Chelton has glideslope guidance worked out with the
> TruTrak, you mean vertical GPS "glideslope", eh? They don't have ILS
> integration . . .
>
> P.S. With that tail number, people are going to think you're a
> Cirrus wanna-be . . .
>
> TDT 40025
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 6:27 PM To: RV10 Subject: RV10-List:
> Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I
> decided to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that
> with all my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30,
> if you insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated
> real fast. It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go
> with Chelton, who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you
> order a 2 screen Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a
> Free TruTrak autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by
> far) EFIS, and you may actually save money depending on your
> equipment list. My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the
> decision to not go the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all.
> But, this panel should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that
> cost, and use that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing
> lacking is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console.
> For me though, function before beauty.
>
> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for
> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they
> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain
> mapping.
>
> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with
> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it
> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
>
> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a
> features and benefits list on my panel section regarding this
> equipment soon.
>
> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
> SL-30/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-30 SL-30/SL-30 Any comments
> there would be appreciated to help my decision. The Chelton will
> actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40. So, the
> best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480 would
> basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers fantastic
> flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is that if
> you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480.
> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480
> doesn't add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The
> Cheltons got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all
> other enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS
> which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the
> best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an
> SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd
> want to do WAAS approaches.
>
> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
>
> Tim
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
Tim,
We will have before Oshkosh the interface from the AF-2500 engine monitor to
the Chelton System.
We are also working on the new AF-1 MFD. The AF-1 is a 3.8" Airdata
Computer. It will give you Altitude, Airspeed, Vertical Speed, Density Altitude,
True Airspeed, and a G-Meter. The AF-1 will also interface to our AOA Sport
for AOA information. The AF-1 looks like a smaller version of the AF-2500.
You will also be able to show EFIS data if it is connected to an external
AHARS module.
Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Wayne Edgerton" <weeav8ter@grandecom.net>
Tim,
Your configuration is very close to the same as what I think I will end up
with. I don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit since you can program in
engine parameters and it will warn you if something is going out of limits
and I believe you can have it pop up on the secondary screen when that
happens. Also you have the analog read out gauge that I think I see on your
panel. What are you thinking for your transponder? I think I will be using
the Garmin GLX330 to be able to paint mode S traffic. I believe I also will
use the Garmin480 because of the WAAS approaches.
I'm still debating about the analog gauges but I think I will end up with a
remote ILS glideslope head and the three primary gauges. They give me a lot
of comfort if things start to go south for some reason. I've heard that Tru
Trak is coming out with the remote attitude indicator that will also have a
Flight Director in it. If they do I might be interested in it. I've flown
quite a bit with a flight director and there great. Obviously the Chelton is
one big flight director!
I'm still waiting on Tony to get me a price for the Fiber Glass Panel, so I
don't know how expensive it is yet?
Wayne E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
> Hey guys,
>
> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided
> to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all
> my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you
> insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast.
> It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton,
> who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen
> Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak
> autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS,
> and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list.
> My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go
> the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel
> should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use
> that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking
> is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me
> though, function before beauty.
>
> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for
> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they
> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
>
> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with
> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it
> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
>
> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features
> and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon.
>
> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
> SL-30/SL-40
> GNS-480/SL-40
> GNS-480/SL-30
> SL-30/SL-30
> Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
> So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480
> would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers
> fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is
> that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480.
> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't
> add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons
> got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other
> enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS
> which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the
> best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an
> SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd
> want to do WAAS approaches.
>
> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
> Current project: Fuselage
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Hey Wayne,
That's very cool that you're looking at similar stuff. But....you say
you don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit.... Who say I "need" it. :)
Can anyone ever say the "need" the 3rd screen? Man, I just WANT it!
All my engine gauges are in the chelton....except for the EIS, but
that's ugly and I hope to not really look at it much. :)
For Transponder I'm going with the GTX330 that you're looking at.
May as well get something good, right! I do want to be WAAS capable
at some point, so I do intend to add a WAAS radio at some point if
I don't get the 480. The thing is, right now, there isn't one single
airport that I have been to with a WAAS approach, so I guess that's
one point where I might be happier just leaving the radio out for
a year or two. The 480 is nice, but it really is probably not a
perfect situation since I can't auto-tune it from the chelton, and
it's pricey, and oh yeah, you have to run the 480 through an RS232
to Airinc 429 converter to interface it. (more $$$) Actually, you
have to do that for the GTX330 too. So, by leaving the 480 out,
I save money for a year or two, AND buy myself market time. The GNS
430 might be more friendly at that point, because they'll have WAAS
in it as well. My guess is that in 1-2 years, there will be many more
WAAS enabled items that could go in there, and possibly at a lower
cost.
I was going to add a remote CDI for doing the ILS, but, when you read
up on the Chelton's HITS, and other types of displays for doing
approaches, you really start to question "why". They have a sample
picture showing the same approach flown by an instrument rated person,
with the HITS and without. The one with is very smooth and nearly
perfect. So, why would you want to chase regular needles when there
is so much else there. For the 2nd NAV, if you have one, I can see
adding an external CDI.
The TruTrak ADI I think is going to get an autopilot soon (anyone else
able to verify that?) I think that's what you're referring to from
TruTrak. I'm not sure what the plan for them is, but I think that ADI
will be just the ticket for me.
As for your fiberglass panel, just keep on them to get your answers, but
they are VERY busy since Sun-N-Fun's display. I know that they'll get
to you, but don't know how quick. As for the cost, it'll really
depend on exactly the equipment you want. Figure that it won't be
cheap, but it'll be very high quality you get for the money. If you're
one of those tight-budget guys, it's probably gonna be tough. But,
there are plenty of us -10 builders who worry a little less about the
budget if it means getting what they want.....and that's "want", not
"need". I want I want I want that 3 screen Chelton. ;)
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Wayne Edgerton wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Wayne Edgerton" <weeav8ter@grandecom.net>
>
> Tim,
>
> Your configuration is very close to the same as what I think I will end
> up with. I don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit since you can program
> in engine parameters and it will warn you if something is going out of
> limits and I believe you can have it pop up on the secondary screen when
> that happens. Also you have the analog read out gauge that I think I see
> on your panel. What are you thinking for your transponder? I think I
> will be using the Garmin GLX330 to be able to paint mode S traffic. I
> believe I also will use the Garmin480 because of the WAAS approaches.
>
> I'm still debating about the analog gauges but I think I will end up
> with a remote ILS glideslope head and the three primary gauges. They
> give me a lot of comfort if things start to go south for some reason.
> I've heard that Tru Trak is coming out with the remote attitude
> indicator that will also have a Flight Director in it. If they do I
> might be interested in it. I've flown quite a bit with a flight director
> and there great. Obviously the Chelton is one big flight director!
>
> I'm still waiting on Tony to get me a price for the Fiber Glass Panel,
> so I don't know how expensive it is yet?
>
> Wayne E
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
> To: "RV10" <RV10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:26 PM
> Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
>
>> Hey guys,
>>
>> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided
>> to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all
>> my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you
>> insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast.
>> It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton,
>> who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen
>> Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak
>> autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS,
>> and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list.
>> My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go
>> the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel
>> should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use
>> that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking
>> is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me
>> though, function before beauty.
>>
>> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for
>> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
>> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they
>> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
>>
>> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with
>> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it
>> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
>>
>> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
>> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
>> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features
>> and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon.
>>
>> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
>> SL-30/SL-40
>> GNS-480/SL-40
>> GNS-480/SL-30
>> SL-30/SL-30
>> Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
>> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
>> So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480
>> would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers
>> fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is
>> that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480.
>> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't
>> add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons
>> got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other
>> enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
>> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS
>> which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the
>> best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an
>> SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd
>> want to do WAAS approaches.
>>
>> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> --
>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>> Current project: Fuselage
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Wayne Edgerton" <weeav8ter@grandecom.net>
Hi Tim,
My other thought was also the Garmin430. I called Garmin and ask them when
they thought they would have it ready for WAAS and what the upgrade cost
would be. They told me they thought it would be ready by the end of the year
and if I remember correctly they said it would cost about $1000.
The reason I chose the remote ILS head is that I was told at Sun-N-Fun when
I was configuring the panel, that the only way I could be IFR legal is to
have a backup device for the approach in case the primary EFIS unit failed
and was told I would need it. I still have to verify if that's true.
Who are you thinking of getting your avionics from and why?
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> Hey Wayne,
>
> That's very cool that you're looking at similar stuff. But....you say
> you don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit.... Who say I "need" it. :)
> Can anyone ever say the "need" the 3rd screen? Man, I just WANT it!
>
> All my engine gauges are in the chelton....except for the EIS, but that's
> ugly and I hope to not really look at it much. :)
>
> For Transponder I'm going with the GTX330 that you're looking at.
> May as well get something good, right! I do want to be WAAS capable
> at some point, so I do intend to add a WAAS radio at some point if
> I don't get the 480. The thing is, right now, there isn't one single
> airport that I have been to with a WAAS approach, so I guess that's
> one point where I might be happier just leaving the radio out for
> a year or two. The 480 is nice, but it really is probably not a
> perfect situation since I can't auto-tune it from the chelton, and
> it's pricey, and oh yeah, you have to run the 480 through an RS232
> to Airinc 429 converter to interface it. (more $$$) Actually, you
> have to do that for the GTX330 too. So, by leaving the 480 out,
> I save money for a year or two, AND buy myself market time. The GNS
> 430 might be more friendly at that point, because they'll have WAAS
> in it as well. My guess is that in 1-2 years, there will be many more
> WAAS enabled items that could go in there, and possibly at a lower
> cost.
>
> I was going to add a remote CDI for doing the ILS, but, when you read
> up on the Chelton's HITS, and other types of displays for doing
> approaches, you really start to question "why". They have a sample
> picture showing the same approach flown by an instrument rated person,
> with the HITS and without. The one with is very smooth and nearly
> perfect. So, why would you want to chase regular needles when there
> is so much else there. For the 2nd NAV, if you have one, I can see
> adding an external CDI.
>
> The TruTrak ADI I think is going to get an autopilot soon (anyone else
> able to verify that?) I think that's what you're referring to from
> TruTrak. I'm not sure what the plan for them is, but I think that ADI
> will be just the ticket for me.
>
> As for your fiberglass panel, just keep on them to get your answers, but
> they are VERY busy since Sun-N-Fun's display. I know that they'll get
> to you, but don't know how quick. As for the cost, it'll really
> depend on exactly the equipment you want. Figure that it won't be
> cheap, but it'll be very high quality you get for the money. If you're
> one of those tight-budget guys, it's probably gonna be tough. But,
> there are plenty of us -10 builders who worry a little less about the
> budget if it means getting what they want.....and that's "want", not
> "need". I want I want I want that 3 screen Chelton. ;)
> Tim
>
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>
>
> Wayne Edgerton wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Wayne Edgerton"
>> <weeav8ter@grandecom.net>
>>
>> Tim,
>>
>> Your configuration is very close to the same as what I think I will end
>> up with. I don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit since you can program
>> in engine parameters and it will warn you if something is going out of
>> limits and I believe you can have it pop up on the secondary screen when
>> that happens. Also you have the analog read out gauge that I think I see
>> on your panel. What are you thinking for your transponder? I think I will
>> be using the Garmin GLX330 to be able to paint mode S traffic. I believe
>> I also will use the Garmin480 because of the WAAS approaches.
>>
>> I'm still debating about the analog gauges but I think I will end up with
>> a remote ILS glideslope head and the three primary gauges. They give me a
>> lot of comfort if things start to go south for some reason. I've heard
>> that Tru Trak is coming out with the remote attitude indicator that will
>> also have a Flight Director in it. If they do I might be interested in
>> it. I've flown quite a bit with a flight director and there great.
>> Obviously the Chelton is one big flight director!
>>
>> I'm still waiting on Tony to get me a price for the Fiber Glass Panel, so
>> I don't know how expensive it is yet?
>>
>> Wayne E
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>> To: "RV10" <RV10-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:26 PM
>> Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>>
>>
>>> Hey guys,
>>>
>>> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided
>>> to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all
>>> my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you
>>> insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast.
>>> It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton,
>>> who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen
>>> Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak
>>> autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS,
>>> and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list.
>>> My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go
>>> the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel
>>> should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use
>>> that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking
>>> is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me
>>> though, function before beauty.
>>>
>>> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for
>>> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
>>> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they
>>> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
>>>
>>> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with
>>> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it
>>> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
>>>
>>> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
>>> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
>>> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features
>>> and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon.
>>>
>>> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
>>> SL-30/SL-40
>>> GNS-480/SL-40
>>> GNS-480/SL-30
>>> SL-30/SL-30
>>> Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
>>> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
>>> So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480
>>> would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers
>>> fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is
>>> that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480.
>>> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't
>>> add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons
>>> got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other
>>> enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
>>> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS
>>> which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the
>>> best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an
>>> SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd
>>> want to do WAAS approaches.
>>>
>>> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>>> Current project: Fuselage
>>>
>>
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Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
Tim, By the way I didn't say you didn't need the 3rd unit, I said I didn't think
I needed the 3rd unit. Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> Hey Wayne,
>
> That's very cool that you're looking at similar stuff. But....you say
> you don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit.... Who say I "need" it. :)
> Can anyone ever say the "need" the 3rd screen? Man, I just WANT it!
>
> All my engine gauges are in the chelton....except for the EIS, but
> that's ugly and I hope to not really look at it much. :)
>
> For Transponder I'm going with the GTX330 that you're looking at.
> May as well get something good, right! I do want to be WAAS capable
> at some point, so I do intend to add a WAAS radio at some point if
> I don't get the 480. The thing is, right now, there isn't one single
> airport that I have been to with a WAAS approach, so I guess that's
> one point where I might be happier just leaving the radio out for
> a year or two. The 480 is nice, but it really is probably not a
> perfect situation since I can't auto-tune it from the chelton, and
> it's pricey, and oh yeah, you have to run the 480 through an RS232
> to Airinc 429 converter to interface it. (more $$$) Actually, you
> have to do that for the GTX330 too. So, by leaving the 480 out,
> I save money for a year or two, AND buy myself market time. The GNS
> 430 might be more friendly at that point, because they'll have WAAS
> in it as well. My guess is that in 1-2 years, there will be many more
> WAAS enabled items that could go in there, and possibly at a lower
> cost.
>
> I was going to add a remote CDI for doing the ILS, but, when you read
> up on the Chelton's HITS, and other types of displays for doing
> approaches, you really start to question "why". They have a sample
> picture showing the same approach flown by an instrument rated person,
> with the HITS and without. The one with is very smooth and nearly
> perfect. So, why would you want to chase regular needles when there
> is so much else there. For the 2nd NAV, if you have one, I can see
> adding an external CDI.
>
> The TruTrak ADI I think is going to get an autopilot soon (anyone else
> able to verify that?) I think that's what you're referring to from
> TruTrak. I'm not sure what the plan for them is, but I think that ADI
> will be just the ticket for me.
>
> As for your fiberglass panel, just keep on them to get your answers, but
> they are VERY busy since Sun-N-Fun's display. I know that they'll get
> to you, but don't know how quick. As for the cost, it'll really
> depend on exactly the equipment you want. Figure that it won't be
> cheap, but it'll be very high quality you get for the money. If you're
> one of those tight-budget guys, it's probably gonna be tough. But,
> there are plenty of us -10 builders who worry a little less about the
> budget if it means getting what they want.....and that's "want", not
> "need". I want I want I want that 3 screen Chelton. ;)
> Tim
>
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>
>
> Wayne Edgerton wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Wayne Edgerton" <weeav8ter@grandecom.net>
>>
>> Tim,
>>
>> Your configuration is very close to the same as what I think I will end
>> up with. I don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit since you can program
>> in engine parameters and it will warn you if something is going out of
>> limits and I believe you can have it pop up on the secondary screen when
>> that happens. Also you have the analog read out gauge that I think I see
>> on your panel. What are you thinking for your transponder? I think I
>> will be using the Garmin GLX330 to be able to paint mode S traffic. I
>> believe I also will use the Garmin480 because of the WAAS approaches.
>>
>> I'm still debating about the analog gauges but I think I will end up
>> with a remote ILS glideslope head and the three primary gauges. They
>> give me a lot of comfort if things start to go south for some reason.
>> I've heard that Tru Trak is coming out with the remote attitude
>> indicator that will also have a Flight Director in it. If they do I
>> might be interested in it. I've flown quite a bit with a flight director
>> and there great. Obviously the Chelton is one big flight director!
>>
>> I'm still waiting on Tony to get me a price for the Fiber Glass Panel,
>> so I don't know how expensive it is yet?
>>
>> Wayne E
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>> To: "RV10" <RV10-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:26 PM
>> Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>>
>>
>>> Hey guys,
>>>
>>> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided
>>> to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all
>>> my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you
>>> insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast.
>>> It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton,
>>> who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen
>>> Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak
>>> autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS,
>>> and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list.
>>> My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go
>>> the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel
>>> should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use
>>> that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking
>>> is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me
>>> though, function before beauty.
>>>
>>> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for
>>> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
>>> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they
>>> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
>>>
>>> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with
>>> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it
>>> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
>>>
>>> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
>>> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
>>> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features
>>> and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon.
>>>
>>> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
>>> SL-30/SL-40
>>> GNS-480/SL-40
>>> GNS-480/SL-30
>>> SL-30/SL-30
>>> Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
>>> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
>>> So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480
>>> would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers
>>> fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is
>>> that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480.
>>> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't
>>> add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons
>>> got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other
>>> enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
>>> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS
>>> which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the
>>> best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an
>>> SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd
>>> want to do WAAS approaches.
>>>
>>> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>>> Current project: Fuselage
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
Rob,
How about just basic Arnave/EI fuel data information from the AG-2500 to your GPS
navigator? I can't determine from you web site if this feature exists in your
product.
>We will have before Oshkosh the interface from the AF-2500 engine
>monitor to the Chelton System.
>
>Rob Hickman
>Advanced Flight Systems
>
William Curtis
http://members.core.com/~wcurtis/RV/
Message 34
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| Subject: | compressor tricks |
Gents: The Harbor Freight compressor auto drain down valve sounds great, but having
seen these devices in operation in a nuclear power plant for the last 25
years, I can tell you they will eventually screw up from rust, crud etc. Save
yourself future problems and buy a few pipe fittings and a ball valve (makes
it real easy to open) for the drain . Guaranteed to outlast the compressor.
Rick Lark '76 C-177B (future RV10 builder, had the demo flight)
Message 35
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| Subject: | Emailing: Chelton Panel |
Tim,
I have been agonizing over which is the best way to go. I have pretty much decided
on a dual Chelton EFIS. Chelton gets its engine data from GRT, and you can
get a dual GRT EFIS display with a dedicated engine display EFIS (which also
has RPM and Manifold data) for less than the cost of the third Chelton. If
you choose the flush mount option on the GRT avionics, it looks like they will
just fit in the panel below the Cheltons. My other reason for this is that it
gives a dual AHRS system for redudancy. I have attached a picture (I think!)
of the setup.
Mark
Message 36
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s=test1; d=earthlink.net;
b=EUURylQDuMI5qEltKL4yUd07UV/nhQo2hcdac+TDw1TzJYCCR+NVZaVy+1eJ4IKw;
| Subject: | Re: Emailing: Chelton Panel |
For all the folks looking at various EFIS configurations, I would suggest caution
in mounting an MFD away from the PFD such as on the other side of a radio stack
on the right side of a panel. This may look nice and symmetrical but I believe
you would find that the instrument scan would be difficult particularly
during approaches. Human factors research suggested that the best configuration
is PFD over MFD from an eye movement standpoint. PFD with MFD immediately
to the right is probably the next best choice. Point is your eyes will often
be moving from PFD to MFD and the farther apart they are the more difficult that
becomes. Finally, you may learn to not like looking at a PFD that is not centered
as much as possible directly in front of the pilot.
After several thousand hours looking at a variety of EFIS configurations in corp.
jets it is surprising how a seemingly small factor can become a real irritant
or conversely make the airplane a pleasure to fly.
Having said that, the panel is the place on the airplane where we can really express
our personal likes and dislikes so to each his own.
Dick Sipp
RV4
RV10 40065
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 10:41 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Emailing: Chelton Panel
Tim,
I have been agonizing over which is the best way to go. I have pretty much decided
on a dual Chelton EFIS. Chelton gets its engine data from GRT, and you
can get a dual GRT EFIS display with a dedicated engine display EFIS (which also
has RPM and Manifold data) for less than the cost of the third Chelton. If
you choose the flush mount option on the GRT avionics, it looks like they will
just fit in the panel below the Cheltons. My other reason for this is that
it gives a dual AHRS system for redudancy. I have attached a picture (I think!)
of the setup.
Mark
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
> BUT, it IS quite the poor man's Cirrus! :)
This prompted me to compare. Attached is an excel spreadsheet with a
comparison of the Cirrus to the RV-10. It is amazing how similar they
are. Almost exactly the same size. (I am sure our RV-10 has more
interior space.) Similar speed, similar range. But 226 to 156 pounds
more useful load with full fuel (thats a whole extra person) Also 500
less feet to land and 500 less feet to take off. All for considerably
less money. Built the way we want with the features and functions we want.
Larry Rosen
#356
Waiting on QB Wings
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: compressor tricks |
Thank you Rick. I was battling the urge to order one of these things and
you saved me. Had it been offered by anyone other than Harbor Freight, I
would have had no hesitation. Sorry, I just don't like HF. Bad
experience with quality and they send out too many catalogs. Also,
other devices that do the same job cost 4X and I couldn't figure out how
they could do that. I'll stick with burping the compressor with the ball
valve. I get enough oil leaking past the rings of the compressor that I
don't get much rust. I guess this is a good thing.
Mark
Do not archive
Rick Lark wrote:
> Gents: The Harbor Freight compressor auto drain down valve sounds
> great, but having seen these devices in operation in a nuclear power
> plant for the last 25 years, I can tell you they will eventually screw
> up from rust, crud etc. Save yourself future problems and buy a few
> pipe fittings and a ball valve (makes it real easy to open) for the
> drain . Guaranteed to outlast the compressor. Rick Lark '76
> C-177B (future RV10 builder, had the demo flight)
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Emailing: Chelton Panel |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
Vic has his dual Cheltons arranged one on top of each other. You could
probably do that and then put the analog gages stacked vertically to one
side. (you can see it on Tim's site
<http://www.myrv10.com/miscphotos/VicsRV10/panel/RV-10-panel_1.html>)
Vic, are you still around? You have to be close to flying.
Larry Rosen
Richard Sipp wrote:
> For all the folks looking at various EFIS configurations, I would
> suggest caution in mounting an MFD away from the PFD such as on the
> other side of a radio stack on the right side of a panel. This may
> look nice and symmetrical but I believe you would find that the
> instrument scan would be difficult particularly during approaches.
> Human factors research suggested that the best configuration is PFD
> over MFD from an eye movement standpoint. PFD with MFD immediately to
> the right is probably the next best choice. Point is your eyes will
> often be moving from PFD to MFD and the farther apart they are the
> more difficult that becomes. Finally, you may learn to not like
> looking at a PFD that is not centered as much as possible directly in
> front of the pilot.
>
> After several thousand hours looking at a variety of EFIS
> configurations in corp. jets it is surprising how a seemingly small
> factor can become a real irritant or conversely make the airplane a
> pleasure to fly.
>
> Having said that, the panel is the place on the airplane where we can
> really express our personal likes and dislikes so to each his own.
>
> Dick Sipp
> RV4
> RV10 40065
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Mark <mailto:2eyedocs@comcast.net>
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 26, 2005 10:41 PM
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Emailing: Chelton Panel
>
> Tim,
>
> I have been agonizing over which is the best way to go. I have
> pretty much decided on a dual Chelton EFIS. Chelton gets its
> engine data from GRT, and you can get a dual GRT EFIS display with
> a dedicated engine display EFIS (which also has RPM and Manifold
> data) for less than the cost of the third Chelton. If you choose
> the flush mount option on the GRT avionics, it looks like they
> will just fit in the panel below the Cheltons. My other reason
> for this is that it gives a dual AHRS system for redudancy. I
> have attached a picture (I think!) of the setup.
>
> Mark
>
Message 40
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|
| Subject: | Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
I don't believe that requirement regarding a second nav display head. Theoretically,
you don't need any ILS display head - you'd just be limited to non-precision
approaches. Same thing if your EFIS goes Tango Uniform, you could still
do a non-precision GPS approach using the CDI display on the GPS unit itself.
There are 1000+ Cirrus aircraft flying with the Avidyne Entegra PFD as their sole
display of horizontal and vertical deviation. Of course, that's a certified
EFIS, but the principle is the same . . .
TDT
40025
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Wayne Edgerton
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Wayne Edgerton" <weeav8ter@grandecom.net>
Hi Tim,
My other thought was also the Garmin430. I called Garmin and ask them when
they thought they would have it ready for WAAS and what the upgrade cost
would be. They told me they thought it would be ready by the end of the year
and if I remember correctly they said it would cost about $1000.
The reason I chose the remote ILS head is that I was told at Sun-N-Fun when
I was configuring the panel, that the only way I could be IFR legal is to
have a backup device for the approach in case the primary EFIS unit failed
and was told I would need it. I still have to verify if that's true.
Who are you thinking of getting your avionics from and why?
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> Hey Wayne,
>
> That's very cool that you're looking at similar stuff. But....you say
> you don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit.... Who say I "need" it. :)
> Can anyone ever say the "need" the 3rd screen? Man, I just WANT it!
>
> All my engine gauges are in the chelton....except for the EIS, but that's
> ugly and I hope to not really look at it much. :)
>
> For Transponder I'm going with the GTX330 that you're looking at.
> May as well get something good, right! I do want to be WAAS capable
> at some point, so I do intend to add a WAAS radio at some point if
> I don't get the 480. The thing is, right now, there isn't one single
> airport that I have been to with a WAAS approach, so I guess that's
> one point where I might be happier just leaving the radio out for
> a year or two. The 480 is nice, but it really is probably not a
> perfect situation since I can't auto-tune it from the chelton, and
> it's pricey, and oh yeah, you have to run the 480 through an RS232
> to Airinc 429 converter to interface it. (more $$$) Actually, you
> have to do that for the GTX330 too. So, by leaving the 480 out,
> I save money for a year or two, AND buy myself market time. The GNS
> 430 might be more friendly at that point, because they'll have WAAS
> in it as well. My guess is that in 1-2 years, there will be many more
> WAAS enabled items that could go in there, and possibly at a lower
> cost.
>
> I was going to add a remote CDI for doing the ILS, but, when you read
> up on the Chelton's HITS, and other types of displays for doing
> approaches, you really start to question "why". They have a sample
> picture showing the same approach flown by an instrument rated person,
> with the HITS and without. The one with is very smooth and nearly
> perfect. So, why would you want to chase regular needles when there
> is so much else there. For the 2nd NAV, if you have one, I can see
> adding an external CDI.
>
> The TruTrak ADI I think is going to get an autopilot soon (anyone else
> able to verify that?) I think that's what you're referring to from
> TruTrak. I'm not sure what the plan for them is, but I think that ADI
> will be just the ticket for me.
>
> As for your fiberglass panel, just keep on them to get your answers, but
> they are VERY busy since Sun-N-Fun's display. I know that they'll get
> to you, but don't know how quick. As for the cost, it'll really
> depend on exactly the equipment you want. Figure that it won't be
> cheap, but it'll be very high quality you get for the money. If you're
> one of those tight-budget guys, it's probably gonna be tough. But,
> there are plenty of us -10 builders who worry a little less about the
> budget if it means getting what they want.....and that's "want", not
> "need". I want I want I want that 3 screen Chelton. ;)
> Tim
>
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>
>
> Wayne Edgerton wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Wayne Edgerton"
>> <weeav8ter@grandecom.net>
>>
>> Tim,
>>
>> Your configuration is very close to the same as what I think I will end
>> up with. I don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit since you can program
>> in engine parameters and it will warn you if something is going out of
>> limits and I believe you can have it pop up on the secondary screen when
>> that happens. Also you have the analog read out gauge that I think I see
>> on your panel. What are you thinking for your transponder? I think I will
>> be using the Garmin GLX330 to be able to paint mode S traffic. I believe
>> I also will use the Garmin480 because of the WAAS approaches.
>>
>> I'm still debating about the analog gauges but I think I will end up with
>> a remote ILS glideslope head and the three primary gauges. They give me a
>> lot of comfort if things start to go south for some reason. I've heard
>> that Tru Trak is coming out with the remote attitude indicator that will
>> also have a Flight Director in it. If they do I might be interested in
>> it. I've flown quite a bit with a flight director and there great.
>> Obviously the Chelton is one big flight director!
>>
>> I'm still waiting on Tony to get me a price for the Fiber Glass Panel, so
>> I don't know how expensive it is yet?
>>
>> Wayne E
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>> To: "RV10" <RV10-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:26 PM
>> Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>>
>>
>>> Hey guys,
>>>
>>> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided
>>> to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all
>>> my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you
>>> insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast.
>>> It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton,
>>> who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen
>>> Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak
>>> autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS,
>>> and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list.
>>> My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go
>>> the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel
>>> should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use
>>> that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking
>>> is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me
>>> though, function before beauty.
>>>
>>> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for
>>> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
>>> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they
>>> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
>>>
>>> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with
>>> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it
>>> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
>>>
>>> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
>>> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
>>> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features
>>> and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon.
>>>
>>> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
>>> SL-30/SL-40
>>> GNS-480/SL-40
>>> GNS-480/SL-30
>>> SL-30/SL-30
>>> Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
>>> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
>>> So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480
>>> would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers
>>> fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is
>>> that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480.
>>> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't
>>> add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons
>>> got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other
>>> enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
>>> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS
>>> which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the
>>> best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an
>>> SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd
>>> want to do WAAS approaches.
>>>
>>> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>>> Current project: Fuselage
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Oops, after I wrote this reply, I realized this was not to the list. I
see that everything is list appropriate though, so I'll reply
to the list too....Okey doke.
Richard,
Your layout is nice and clean too. Very nice if you're doing 2 panels.
One thing, people.... You should realize something...that Richard
here mentions in his next post. The 2 screen systems are nice, but
one panel per side will not give you good viewing for your overhead
birdseye view map page, (also the HSI page), simultaneously with your
attitude display. I do know that you can split-screen things, but to
me, this is kind of degrading your overall "QOV". (for you techies,
like "QOS" in networking...quality of Viewing") :) That's
actually the #1 reason I went with 3 displays. I want the attitude
and HSI/Map screen to be easily visible and close to me....on my
side or at worst in the middle. You can also put a toggle on your
stick to flip that center screen from MAP to EIS, so during
critical stages of flight you can have your engine gauges. The
3rd screen, to me, isn't the middle one....it's the RIGHT side one.
I wanted that screen so that I could A) have my engine instruments
up all the time on normal flights. B) give my co-pilot the
controls and they'd have a full set of instruments. C) give my co-pilot
the map and let them monitor progress. D) Fly from the right seat
when I want to let someone else fly my plane..... (Yes, I may actually
be fearless enough some day to let someone else fly my plane. ;) )
Richard's points about the DigiFlight IIVSVG are accurate indeed also.
If you get these nice EFIS's, you won't need more. Great panel, Richard!
Oh, and like Richard says in his reply...."the panel is the place on the
airplane where we can really express our personal likes and dislikes so
to each his own." I COMPLETELY agree...so please, nobody think I'm
thinking everyone should do like me. I think we should discuss, and
you should decide what you want/need/prefer.
On to the next reply...
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Richard Sipp wrote:
> Tim:
>
> A few months back I reached the same conclusion with the same logic.
>
> When I first started the project I was planning the Chelton System AND
> GPS etc, etc,. That was cost prohibitive so started planning around the
> GRT.
>
> At S&F this year it finally dawned on me that external GPS and most
> other stuff like an MX 20 were redundant when added to the Chelton.
>
> I am now settled on a 2 screen Chelton, SL 30, SL 40, back up
> instruments including TruTrak's ADI. After talking to Chuck at TruTrak
> I also downgraded from a Sorcerer to the DigiFlight IIVSGV. Chuck said
> the DigiFlight was designed with sophisticated EFIS in mind where the
> EFIS would control the autopilot. The Sorcerer or DFC Series has the
> functionality built in to the autopilot. Another couple of $M savings
> based on using Chelton. Bottom line with the Chelton you don't need a
> lot of other stuff. I plan on just two screens and will probably have
> the engine display on the MFD for takeoff and periodic cruise checks.
> The GRT EIS display will be mounted behind the panel to get rid of the
> big bezel with the display visible through screen size openings.
>
> Here is a picture of one recent version. I think I could do the panel
> myself, but will most likely have it done in the interest of time.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
> To: "RV10" <RV10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 6:26 PM
> Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
>
>> Hey guys,
>>
>> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided
>> to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all
>> my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you
>> insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast.
>> It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton,
>> who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen
>> Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak
>> autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS,
>> and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list.
>> My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go
>> the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel
>> should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use
>> that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking
>> is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me
>> though, function before beauty.
>>
>> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for
>> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
>> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they
>> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
>>
>> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with
>> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it
>> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
>>
>> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
>> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
>> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features
>> and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon.
>>
>> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
>> SL-30/SL-40
>> GNS-480/SL-40
>> GNS-480/SL-30
>> SL-30/SL-30
>> Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
>> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
>> So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480
>> would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers
>> fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is
>> that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480.
>> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't
>> add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons
>> got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other
>> enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
>> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS
>> which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the
>> best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an
>> SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd
>> want to do WAAS approaches.
>>
>> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> --
>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>> Current project: Fuselage
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
Tim O:
How about Delta-Charlie to avoid those mix-ups in the Duluth traffic patttern?
TDT
Do not archive
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Actually, that's going to be a TruTrak ADI that's in there...just
no version on Epanelbuilder yet.....cool instrument...gonna have
internal battery backup soon too. As for the 2 1/4" stuff,
that was my original plan, but it's hard to find qood quality
precision ASI's that are also small, without being high priced.
And, ideally, if the larger ones fit, I guess why not use them....
'specially if they cost less. I may choose to go the other
way if I find equivalent quality and similar price.
From what I understand, the Chelton will do an ILS, and the GPS
"glideslope" too. It inetgrates with both the NAV and GPS.
GRT is still working out the details of programming between them
and TruTrak right now, and hopefully will have that soon. Currently,
if you get a Digiflight II VSVG, you're really not getting the
second "V"...or is that "G".....whatever, it doesn't do it right
now with the GRT.
Funny you should say that about the Tail number....when I was digging
around for one, every one that ended in "CD" was a Cirrus...and I
couldn't believe that one was available.
My girls are Colleen and Danielle, and this is a 10, for C & D,
so we can take nice trips. :) BUT, it IS quite the poor man's
Cirrus! :)
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"
> <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
>
>
> Tim:
>
> Looks nice.
>
> One recommendation: How about using 2 1/4 inch backup airspeed,
> altimeter, and ADI? I know 2 1/4 inch electric ADIs can be
> expensive, but how about the 2 1/4 inch TruTrak ADI? It would free
> up a little space on your panel so it wasn't so tight, and probably
> be visually more pleasing.
>
> When you say Chelton has glideslope guidance worked out with the
> TruTrak, you mean vertical GPS "glideslope", eh? They don't have ILS
> integration . . .
>
> P.S. With that tail number, people are going to think you're a
> Cirrus wanna-be . . .
>
> TDT 40025
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 6:27 PM To: RV10 Subject: RV10-List:
> Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I
> decided to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that
> with all my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30,
> if you insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated
> real fast. It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go
> with Chelton, who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you
> order a 2 screen Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a
> Free TruTrak autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by
> far) EFIS, and you may actually save money depending on your
> equipment list. My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the
> decision to not go the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all.
> But, this panel should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that
> cost, and use that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing
> lacking is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console.
> For me though, function before beauty.
>
> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for
> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they
> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain
> mapping.
>
> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with
> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it
> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
>
> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a
> features and benefits list on my panel section regarding this
> equipment soon.
>
> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
> SL-30/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-30 SL-30/SL-30 Any comments
> there would be appreciated to help my decision. The Chelton will
> actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40. So, the
> best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480 would
> basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers fantastic
> flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is that if
> you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480.
> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480
> doesn't add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The
> Cheltons got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all
> other enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS
> which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the
> best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an
> SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd
> want to do WAAS approaches.
>
> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
>
> Tim
>
Message 43
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| Subject: | Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
Yeah, I'd like to see a Cirrus and an RV-10 parked next to each other for visual
comparison . . .
TDT
Do not archive
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Larry
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
> BUT, it IS quite the poor man's Cirrus! :)
This prompted me to compare. Attached is an excel spreadsheet with a
comparison of the Cirrus to the RV-10. It is amazing how similar they
are. Almost exactly the same size. (I am sure our RV-10 has more
interior space.) Similar speed, similar range. But 226 to 156 pounds
more useful load with full fuel (thats a whole extra person) Also 500
less feet to land and 500 less feet to take off. All for considerably
less money. Built the way we want with the features and functions we want.
Larry Rosen
#356
Waiting on QB Wings
Message 44
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| Subject: | Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
I'm thinking something along the lines of the picture I attached. I have at
least 2 years before I need to make the hard decisions so we'll see what happens
between now and then. I also would like to replace the analog gauges with
a single unit but I'm still not to the point where I feel comfortable being in
hard IFR with a 100% electrically dependant aircraft. At least I can revert
to airspeed and altitude if everything else fails.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Hey guys,
I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided to go with
a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all my 3 screen GRT
stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you insist on Traffic and Weather,
things get real complicated real fast.
It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton, who, by
the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen Chelton system
and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak autopilot, you really end
up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS, and you may actually save money depending
on your equipment list.
My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go the Fiberglass
panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel should be easy for me
to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use that savings to add to hardware
a bit. The only thing lacking is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and
console. For me though, function before beauty.
I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with TruTrak to
do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it working with TruTrak,
so it really does get to be full featured.
I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come through for you
to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to get to any nice web page
updating, but I'll be trying to do a features and benefits list on my panel
section regarding this equipment soon.
A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
SL-30/SL-40
GNS-480/SL-40
GNS-480/SL-30
SL-30/SL-30
Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The Chelton will
actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480 would basically
not be used very much, because the Chelton offers fantastic flight planning,
and the approaches are in it. My worry is that if you use a Chelton all
day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480.
Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't add much
except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons got WAAS, but not
legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other enroute and terminal though
I belive. If you want legal WAAS capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480,
or FreeFlight GPS which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been
given, the best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an SL-30/SL-40
combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd want to do WAAS
approaches.
So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
Tim
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Current project: Fuselage
Message 45
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|
| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Last question first...
I'm getting my Chelton stuff from Stein and SteinAir. He went
above and beyond in giving me the scoop on the Cheltons, and referring
me to the right guy at Direct 2 Avionics with my additional
questions. He really helped me get a good understanding of what it
was I was buying, and where I would come up short or be way overboard.
He won't try to sell you something you don't need...he wants you
to be 100% happy with every choice, and he's real detail oriented
in his panel thinking. There is also one very cool thing about getting
everything from him. His shop is only 100 miles away or so, and
since my panel is going to be a pretty cool panel, he wants to use
it for an OSH panel to display. That really benefits me, because
I will be able to go there and assist in the panel building to
make sure we get it done, and done right, by OSH. It'll be on
display, so if you're at OSH, check it out....but, DON'T TOUCH....
(Just kidding) :) Another thing that really adds to the trust
factor is that if there are items that he can't sell you at a
real great price (some Garmin stuff comes to mind), he'll be more
than happy to point you to Stark Avionics or other suppliers
so that you can save the money. Some things are just hard to
compete on, and he'd rather see you 100% happy with each item,
than make the tiny profit some items have. As for the costs
of them building your panel, he charges a straight $5000 to do
a panel. That also includes many of the "incidentals" so you're
not itemized and paying for every switch, jack, wire, and connector...
and that stuff actually does add up.
I agree Wayne...I think the 430 would be great when it has WAAS.
The problem is just that all these vendors tend to promise vaporware...
they say "soon", but it's not at all soon. I feel bad for these who
have technical problems, but...it's still disturbing. Right now
I'm *Still* waiting for the Gretz Pitot to come out. It was going
to be a "couple weeks" back last summer/fall. It was the same
thing this January. I also heard others heard the same thing
over a year ago. Vaporware really irratates me. The 430 will turn
into a great radio from a good radio when WAAS is added as standard
equipment....as long as it's approved for WAAS approaches. They
don't have it today though, so it's really not much of an option
for me.
Rob....that's the only problem I have with the EIS integration your're
planning. I love your products...they're fantastic, and I dare say you
have the sweetest EIS out there. But, at the particular point in
time, I'm ready to actually buy and build...otherwise I'd be
investigating. Everyone who buys after OSH though, check out this
integration from Rob. I haven't seen it myself, but he does great stuff.
If you don't get a GRT multi-screen or Chelton multi-screen system, his
EIS is hands down the best right now.
As for the CDI indicator (ILS head), I haven't heard that, myself, about
needing it to be IFR legal. I wonder if that would still be true even
if you have multi-screens in your EFIS....if it's even actually true
right now. I'll have to call Chelton (Direct 2 Avionics) and ask that
one. I'm betting it's just fine to go without. With the chelton's,
each screen is independent and can be shut off without killing the
system. If you lose your AHRS, you can still function on GPS and
air data, actually. If you lose your GPS, you can still function on
the AHRS and air data. So with 3 screens it REALLY takes a lot to
get to the point where things don't function. I'll have to check, but
it may even be true that you can lose the Chelton GPS and AHRS, and
still display-only the NAV on the screen as an HSI. That would be
cool if it would still do that.
Sorry that this is another long-winded post guys, but there's so much
info to share...I'd rather have some people give up and hit delete
than have everyone have to learn every detail on their own. These
lists are very educational for me too, so when I learn, I pass it on.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Wayne Edgerton wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Wayne Edgerton" <weeav8ter@grandecom.net>
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> My other thought was also the Garmin430. I called Garmin and ask them
> when they thought they would have it ready for WAAS and what the upgrade
> cost would be. They told me they thought it would be ready by the end of
> the year and if I remember correctly they said it would cost about $1000.
>
> The reason I chose the remote ILS head is that I was told at Sun-N-Fun
> when I was configuring the panel, that the only way I could be IFR legal
> is to have a backup device for the approach in case the primary EFIS
> unit failed and was told I would need it. I still have to verify if
> that's true.
>
> Who are you thinking of getting your avionics from and why?
>
> Wayne
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>>
>> Hey Wayne,
>>
>> That's very cool that you're looking at similar stuff. But....you say
>> you don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit.... Who say I "need" it. :)
>> Can anyone ever say the "need" the 3rd screen? Man, I just WANT it!
>>
>> All my engine gauges are in the chelton....except for the EIS, but
>> that's ugly and I hope to not really look at it much. :)
>>
>> For Transponder I'm going with the GTX330 that you're looking at.
>> May as well get something good, right! I do want to be WAAS capable
>> at some point, so I do intend to add a WAAS radio at some point if
>> I don't get the 480. The thing is, right now, there isn't one single
>> airport that I have been to with a WAAS approach, so I guess that's
>> one point where I might be happier just leaving the radio out for
>> a year or two. The 480 is nice, but it really is probably not a
>> perfect situation since I can't auto-tune it from the chelton, and
>> it's pricey, and oh yeah, you have to run the 480 through an RS232
>> to Airinc 429 converter to interface it. (more $$$) Actually, you
>> have to do that for the GTX330 too. So, by leaving the 480 out,
>> I save money for a year or two, AND buy myself market time. The GNS
>> 430 might be more friendly at that point, because they'll have WAAS
>> in it as well. My guess is that in 1-2 years, there will be many more
>> WAAS enabled items that could go in there, and possibly at a lower
>> cost.
>>
>> I was going to add a remote CDI for doing the ILS, but, when you read
>> up on the Chelton's HITS, and other types of displays for doing
>> approaches, you really start to question "why". They have a sample
>> picture showing the same approach flown by an instrument rated person,
>> with the HITS and without. The one with is very smooth and nearly
>> perfect. So, why would you want to chase regular needles when there
>> is so much else there. For the 2nd NAV, if you have one, I can see
>> adding an external CDI.
>>
>> The TruTrak ADI I think is going to get an autopilot soon (anyone else
>> able to verify that?) I think that's what you're referring to from
>> TruTrak. I'm not sure what the plan for them is, but I think that ADI
>> will be just the ticket for me.
>>
>> As for your fiberglass panel, just keep on them to get your answers, but
>> they are VERY busy since Sun-N-Fun's display. I know that they'll get
>> to you, but don't know how quick. As for the cost, it'll really
>> depend on exactly the equipment you want. Figure that it won't be
>> cheap, but it'll be very high quality you get for the money. If you're
>> one of those tight-budget guys, it's probably gonna be tough. But,
>> there are plenty of us -10 builders who worry a little less about the
>> budget if it means getting what they want.....and that's "want", not
>> "need". I want I want I want that 3 screen Chelton. ;)
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>>
>>
>> Wayne Edgerton wrote:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Wayne Edgerton"
>>> <weeav8ter@grandecom.net>
>>>
>>> Tim,
>>>
>>> Your configuration is very close to the same as what I think I will
>>> end up with. I don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit since you can
>>> program in engine parameters and it will warn you if something is
>>> going out of limits and I believe you can have it pop up on the
>>> secondary screen when that happens. Also you have the analog read out
>>> gauge that I think I see on your panel. What are you thinking for
>>> your transponder? I think I will be using the Garmin GLX330 to be
>>> able to paint mode S traffic. I believe I also will use the Garmin480
>>> because of the WAAS approaches.
>>>
>>> I'm still debating about the analog gauges but I think I will end up
>>> with a remote ILS glideslope head and the three primary gauges. They
>>> give me a lot of comfort if things start to go south for some reason.
>>> I've heard that Tru Trak is coming out with the remote attitude
>>> indicator that will also have a Flight Director in it. If they do I
>>> might be interested in it. I've flown quite a bit with a flight
>>> director and there great. Obviously the Chelton is one big flight
>>> director!
>>>
>>> I'm still waiting on Tony to get me a price for the Fiber Glass
>>> Panel, so I don't know how expensive it is yet?
>>>
>>> Wayne E
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>>> To: "RV10" <RV10-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:26 PM
>>> Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hey guys,
>>>>
>>>> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided
>>>> to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all
>>>> my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you
>>>> insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast.
>>>> It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton,
>>>> who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen
>>>> Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak
>>>> autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS,
>>>> and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list.
>>>> My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go
>>>> the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel
>>>> should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use
>>>> that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking
>>>> is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me
>>>> though, function before beauty.
>>>>
>>>> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for
>>>> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
>>>> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they
>>>> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with
>>>> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it
>>>> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
>>>>
>>>> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
>>>> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
>>>> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features
>>>> and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon.
>>>>
>>>> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
>>>> SL-30/SL-40
>>>> GNS-480/SL-40
>>>> GNS-480/SL-30
>>>> SL-30/SL-30
>>>> Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
>>>> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
>>>> So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480
>>>> would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers
>>>> fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is
>>>> that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a
>>>> GNS-480.
>>>> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480
>>>> doesn't
>>>> add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons
>>>> got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other
>>>> enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
>>>> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS
>>>> which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the
>>>> best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an
>>>> SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd
>>>> want to do WAAS approaches.
>>>>
>>>> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Tim
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>>>> Current project: Fuselage
>>>>
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
I agree on not being 100% depended on electrical instruments. I am
thinking that airspeed, turn and bank, vertical speed combined with my
hand held GPS and Com would give me all the backup I need. The AI would
be nice, but then it is another electrical component.
Larry
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> I also would like to replace the analog gauges with a single unit
> but I'm still not to the point where I feel comfortable being in hard
> IFR with a 100% electrically dependant aircraft. At least I can
> revert to airspeed and altitude if everything else fails.
>
>
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Emailing: Chelton Panel |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Mark, that panel is very sweet looking, but here are some comments that
might trigger a couple things...or not: BTW, I was very adamant at
first on having an over/under display with the attitude/HSI display,
like you have....not anymore.
A) This panel will NOT fit the way it is. When I was planning the
Lancair panel (which would still be hard to fit this in with the
size of the Chelton), I actually had a layout almost exactly like
this at one point. One HUGE issue is the center stack. On the stock
Van's, completely stupid designed panel (Sorry Van's, but it is...just
ask most every -10 builder who's had to work around the problems those
ribs cause), there is no room by that center rib for the audio panel.
I was looking at the PMA 8000, which may be longer than some at aroud
7" deep, but still comparable. There is really only at most 4.25" of
depth available behind that audio panel area. And that goes down
at least 1.5-2" before you get any real depth out of it. The GNS480
is also pretty deep. So, unless you do something wild, you will
never fit anything very large in the top slots of that center part
of the panel. The lancair panel helped by bringing the stack out
1.25-2", but even with their panel, I was forced to put the MX-20 on
top to guarantee clearance...it slope down in the back. Look at
the gap at the top of Randy's center stack...you can see how they
had to leave space open even with the radios out that extra bit.
B) I was given the advice last week that perhaps a good "backup"
would be something that is not at all the same as the original.
Vacuum vs. Electric, for instance.....EFIS Vs. Standard instruments.
The GRT is very much like the Chelton...yes, redundant AHRS, but
still have similar dependencies. That's why I have the TruTrak ADI
and standard airspeed and ALT in my panel. For GPS redundancy, if
I don't get the GNS-480, I'm putting an AVmap or something sweet
in the rear seats for both passenger entertainment, and backup use.
C) Yes, you can buy those 2 GRT screens for less than the 3rd Chelton...
by a very small amount...but...if you can't fit them in your panel, then
it isn't going to do you any good. You'll have to do some pretty good
mods to get this to fit the way it is...and in the end, you'll probably
end up with stuff off to the left and right because of that center
stack issue. So, to fix that, you give up the over/under, and go
to a side-by side 3 screen to get that functionality. Now it fits.
But, if you're doing 3 screens, you don't want to make ONE a GRT
and the others Chelton...then they don't interact together. So, you
put in 3 Cheltons....and Wala, you have my panel! Your panel really
helps illustrate how I got to the design I had....because in a matter
of days hard spent talking on the phone, and laying them out, I
had that process happen.
D) So, now in step C, you *possibly* get convinced to have 3 screens
of Chelton....now you get to the functionality part. Do some good
research, and ask some people about the functionality in the Cheltons,
and you'll see that the GNS-480 is getting harder to justify....maybe
still very nice, and I may do it myself, but, you'll probably do
most of your flight planning on your Chelton, so why have to learn the
GNS-480's intricacies. Yes, it gives you WAAS capability, and Yes, it's
another GPS. Other than that, it's harder to justify. Like I said, I
may do it myself, but I can tell you that the panel is pretty pricey
at this point, and by skipping it, you don't seem to lose too much, but
you save $5000 by going to a SL-30/SL-40 combl. Also, you have a
sorcerer in the panel...you can get either a FREE...yes FREE,
Trutrak Digiflight II VSVG with the chelton right now, or a FREE WSI
weather module. Now you can display that weather on any of your 3
screens. You won't hardly gain ANYthing from buying the sorcerer
if you have a Chelton.
I don't know if this gives any good/bad/other info for you, but having
just gone through this stuff for the last week, and wracking my mind,
I thought I'd pass it on to you and all. You can tell from my previous
posts that I'm still not sure about dropping that 480 though.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Current project: Fuselage
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Mark wrote:
> Tim,
>
> I have been agonizing over which is the best way to go. I have pretty
> much decided on a dual Chelton EFIS. Chelton gets its engine data from
> GRT, and you can get a dual GRT EFIS display with a dedicated engine
> display EFIS (which also has RPM and Manifold data) for less than the
> cost of the third Chelton. If you choose the flush mount option on the
> GRT avionics, it looks like they will just fit in the panel below the
> Cheltons. My other reason for this is that it gives a dual AHRS system
> for redudancy. I have attached a picture (I think!) of the setup.
>
> Mark
>
>
Message 48
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|
| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
VERY good point...Makes a LOT of sense to me.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
> I don't believe that requirement regarding a second nav display head.
> Theoretically, you don't need any ILS display head - you'd just be
> limited to non-precision approaches. Same thing if your EFIS goes
> Tango Uniform, you could still do a non-precision GPS approach using
> the CDI display on the GPS unit itself.
>
> There are 1000+ Cirrus aircraft flying with the Avidyne Entegra PFD
> as their sole display of horizontal and vertical deviation. Of
> course, that's a certified EFIS, but the principle is the same . . .
>
> TDT 40025
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Wayne
> Edgerton Sent: Thu 5/26/2005 10:19 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Wayne Edgerton"
> <weeav8ter@grandecom.net>
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> My other thought was also the Garmin430. I called Garmin and ask them
> when they thought they would have it ready for WAAS and what the
> upgrade cost would be. They told me they thought it would be ready by
> the end of the year and if I remember correctly they said it would
> cost about $1000.
>
> The reason I chose the remote ILS head is that I was told at
> Sun-N-Fun when I was configuring the panel, that the only way I could
> be IFR legal is to have a backup device for the approach in case the
> primary EFIS unit failed and was told I would need it. I still have
> to verify if that's true.
>
> Who are you thinking of getting your avionics from and why?
>
> Wayne
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com> To:
> <rv10-list@matronics.com> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
>
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>>
>> Hey Wayne,
>>
>> That's very cool that you're looking at similar stuff. But....you
>> say you don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit.... Who say I
>> "need" it. :) Can anyone ever say the "need" the 3rd screen? Man,
>> I just WANT it!
>>
>> All my engine gauges are in the chelton....except for the EIS, but
>> that's ugly and I hope to not really look at it much. :)
>>
>> For Transponder I'm going with the GTX330 that you're looking at.
>> May as well get something good, right! I do want to be WAAS
>> capable at some point, so I do intend to add a WAAS radio at some
>> point if I don't get the 480. The thing is, right now, there isn't
>> one single airport that I have been to with a WAAS approach, so I
>> guess that's one point where I might be happier just leaving the
>> radio out for a year or two. The 480 is nice, but it really is
>> probably not a perfect situation since I can't auto-tune it from
>> the chelton, and it's pricey, and oh yeah, you have to run the 480
>> through an RS232 to Airinc 429 converter to interface it. (more
>> $$$) Actually, you have to do that for the GTX330 too. So, by
>> leaving the 480 out, I save money for a year or two, AND buy myself
>> market time. The GNS 430 might be more friendly at that point,
>> because they'll have WAAS in it as well. My guess is that in 1-2
>> years, there will be many more WAAS enabled items that could go in
>> there, and possibly at a lower cost.
>>
>> I was going to add a remote CDI for doing the ILS, but, when you
>> read up on the Chelton's HITS, and other types of displays for
>> doing approaches, you really start to question "why". They have a
>> sample picture showing the same approach flown by an instrument
>> rated person, with the HITS and without. The one with is very
>> smooth and nearly perfect. So, why would you want to chase regular
>> needles when there is so much else there. For the 2nd NAV, if you
>> have one, I can see adding an external CDI.
>>
>> The TruTrak ADI I think is going to get an autopilot soon (anyone
>> else able to verify that?) I think that's what you're referring to
>> from TruTrak. I'm not sure what the plan for them is, but I think
>> that ADI will be just the ticket for me.
>>
>> As for your fiberglass panel, just keep on them to get your
>> answers, but they are VERY busy since Sun-N-Fun's display. I know
>> that they'll get to you, but don't know how quick. As for the
>> cost, it'll really depend on exactly the equipment you want.
>> Figure that it won't be cheap, but it'll be very high quality you
>> get for the money. If you're one of those tight-budget guys, it's
>> probably gonna be tough. But, there are plenty of us -10 builders
>> who worry a little less about the budget if it means getting what
>> they want.....and that's "want", not "need". I want I want I want
>> that 3 screen Chelton. ;) Tim
>>
>>
>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>>
>>
>> Wayne Edgerton wrote:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Wayne Edgerton"
>>> <weeav8ter@grandecom.net>
>>>
>>> Tim,
>>>
>>> Your configuration is very close to the same as what I think I
>>> will end up with. I don't think I need the 3rd Chelton unit since
>>> you can program in engine parameters and it will warn you if
>>> something is going out of limits and I believe you can have it
>>> pop up on the secondary screen when that happens. Also you have
>>> the analog read out gauge that I think I see on your panel. What
>>> are you thinking for your transponder? I think I will be using
>>> the Garmin GLX330 to be able to paint mode S traffic. I believe I
>>> also will use the Garmin480 because of the WAAS approaches.
>>>
>>> I'm still debating about the analog gauges but I think I will end
>>> up with a remote ILS glideslope head and the three primary
>>> gauges. They give me a lot of comfort if things start to go south
>>> for some reason. I've heard that Tru Trak is coming out with the
>>> remote attitude indicator that will also have a Flight Director
>>> in it. If they do I might be interested in it. I've flown quite a
>>> bit with a flight director and there great. Obviously the Chelton
>>> is one big flight director!
>>>
>>> I'm still waiting on Tony to get me a price for the Fiber Glass
>>> Panel, so I don't know how expensive it is yet?
>>>
>>> Wayne E
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>>> To: "RV10" <RV10-list@matronics.com> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005
>>> 5:26 PM Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hey guys,
>>>>
>>>> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I
>>>> decided to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was
>>>> that with all my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20,
>>>> and SL-30, if you insist on Traffic and Weather, things get
>>>> real complicated real fast. It is, of course, not cheap. But,
>>>> I found that if you go with Chelton, who, by the way, has a
>>>> deal going right now where you order a 2 screen Chelton system
>>>> and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak autopilot,
>>>> you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS, and you
>>>> may actually save money depending on your equipment list. My
>>>> panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not
>>>> go the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this
>>>> panel should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that
>>>> cost, and use that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only
>>>> thing lacking is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and
>>>> console. For me though, function before beauty.
>>>>
>>>> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could
>>>> ask for in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested
>>>> in their equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch
>>>> the video they have online. The system is awesome, even
>>>> including 3D terrain mapping.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out
>>>> with TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but
>>>> Chelton has it working with TruTrak, so it really does get to
>>>> be full featured.
>>>>
>>>> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will
>>>> come through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit
>>>> too much to get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be
>>>> trying to do a features and benefits list on my panel section
>>>> regarding this equipment soon.
>>>>
>>>> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want
>>>> to use: SL-30/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-30 SL-30/SL-30 Any
>>>> comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
>>>> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or
>>>> SL-40. So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that
>>>> one. The GNS-480 would basically not be used very much,
>>>> because the Chelton offers fantastic flight planning, and the
>>>> approaches are in it. My worry is that if you use a Chelton
>>>> all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480. Other than a 2nd
>>>> GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't add
>>>> much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons
>>>> got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all
>>>> other enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal
>>>> WAAS capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or
>>>> FreeFlight GPS which is a remote mount. From some direction
>>>> I've been given, the best integration/ease of use/cost benefit
>>>> system, would be an SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS
>>>> added at the time when I'd want to do WAAS approaches.
>>>>
>>>> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline
>>>> appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Tim
>>>>
>>>> -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ====================================
> ====================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Funny you say that, since I'm close to Duluth. :) Actually, that
wouldn't be 1/2 bad...but then I'd have to get new license plates
for my wife. :)
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
> Tim O:
>
> How about Delta-Charlie to avoid those mix-ups in the Duluth traffic patttern?
>
> TDT
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Tim Olson
> Sent: Thu 5/26/2005 7:46 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> Actually, that's going to be a TruTrak ADI that's in there...just
> no version on Epanelbuilder yet.....cool instrument...gonna have
> internal battery backup soon too. As for the 2 1/4" stuff,
> that was my original plan, but it's hard to find qood quality
> precision ASI's that are also small, without being high priced.
> And, ideally, if the larger ones fit, I guess why not use them....
> 'specially if they cost less. I may choose to go the other
> way if I find equivalent quality and similar price.
>
> From what I understand, the Chelton will do an ILS, and the GPS
> "glideslope" too. It inetgrates with both the NAV and GPS.
> GRT is still working out the details of programming between them
> and TruTrak right now, and hopefully will have that soon. Currently,
> if you get a Digiflight II VSVG, you're really not getting the
> second "V"...or is that "G".....whatever, it doesn't do it right
> now with the GRT.
>
> Funny you should say that about the Tail number....when I was digging
> around for one, every one that ended in "CD" was a Cirrus...and I
> couldn't believe that one was available.
>
> My girls are Colleen and Danielle, and this is a 10, for C & D,
> so we can take nice trips. :) BUT, it IS quite the poor man's
> Cirrus! :)
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
>
>>--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"
>><Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
>>
>>
>>Tim:
>>
>>Looks nice.
>>
>>One recommendation: How about using 2 1/4 inch backup airspeed,
>>altimeter, and ADI? I know 2 1/4 inch electric ADIs can be
>>expensive, but how about the 2 1/4 inch TruTrak ADI? It would free
>>up a little space on your panel so it wasn't so tight, and probably
>>be visually more pleasing.
>>
>>When you say Chelton has glideslope guidance worked out with the
>>TruTrak, you mean vertical GPS "glideslope", eh? They don't have ILS
>>integration . . .
>>
>>P.S. With that tail number, people are going to think you're a
>>Cirrus wanna-be . . .
>>
>>TDT 40025
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Olson
>>Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 6:27 PM To: RV10 Subject: RV10-List:
>>Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>>
>>
>>Hey guys,
>>
>>I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I
>>decided to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that
>>with all my 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30,
>>if you insist on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated
>>real fast. It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go
>>with Chelton, who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you
>>order a 2 screen Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a
>>Free TruTrak autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by
>>far) EFIS, and you may actually save money depending on your
>>equipment list. My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the
>>decision to not go the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all.
>>But, this panel should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that
>>cost, and use that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing
>>lacking is I won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console.
>>For me though, function before beauty.
>>
>>I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for
>>in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
>>equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they
>> have online. The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain
>>mapping.
>>
>>Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with
>>TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it
>>working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
>>
>>I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
>>through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
>>get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a
>>features and benefits list on my panel section regarding this
>>equipment soon.
>>
>>A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
>> SL-30/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-40 GNS-480/SL-30 SL-30/SL-30 Any comments
>>there would be appreciated to help my decision. The Chelton will
>>actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40. So, the
>>best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480 would
>>basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers fantastic
>>flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is that if
>>you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480.
>>Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480
>>doesn't add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The
>>Cheltons got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all
>>other enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
>>capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS
>>which is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the
>>best integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an
>>SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd
>> want to do WAAS approaches.
>>
>>So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
>>
>>Tim
>>
>
>
>
>
> ====================================
> ====================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Very interesting. I think you have the proper amount of regular
instruments there... Very different having the MX-20 apart
from the GNS-480....does it make a good HSI display like a PFD does?
The Blue Mountain is the only part that I myself couldn't do.
That sport has an awesome looking screen, but GRT has what seems
to be a much stronger product functionally at present. But, things
change, and every day everyone gets closer to improvements. Since
you have time to spare, hold off until you have to...
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> I'm thinking something along the lines of the picture I attached. I
> have at least 2 years before I need to make the hard decisions so we'll
> see what happens between now and then. I also would like to replace the
> analog gauges with a single unit but I'm still not to the point where I
> feel comfortable being in hard IFR with a 100% electrically dependant
> aircraft. At least I can revert to airspeed and altitude if everything
> else fails.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:27 PM
> To: RV10
> Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I decided
> to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that with all my
> 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you insist on
> Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast.
> It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with Chelton,
> who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a 2 screen
> Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free TruTrak
> autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far) EFIS, and
> you may actually save money depending on your equipment list.
> My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go the
> Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel should be
> easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use that savings
> to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking is I won't have that
> awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me though, function before
> beauty.
>
> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for in
> a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their equipment,
> go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they have online.
> The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
>
> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with
> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it
> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
>
> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to get
> to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features and
> benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon.
>
> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
> SL-30/SL-40
> GNS-480/SL-40
> GNS-480/SL-30
> SL-30/SL-30
> Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
> So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The GNS-480
> would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton offers
> fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My worry is
> that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480.
> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 doesn't
> add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The Cheltons got
> WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all other enroute
> and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS capability, the
> only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS which is a remote
> mount. From some direction I've been given, the best integration/ease
> of use/cost benefit system, would be an SL-30/SL-40 combo, with the
> FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd want to do WAAS approaches.
>
> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
> Current project: Fuselage
>
>
>
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