Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:56 AM - Re: Panel Change - (WAAS?) (William Curtis)
2. 06:32 AM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen ()
3. 06:56 AM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
4. 07:00 AM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
5. 07:15 AM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Olson)
6. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: Panel Change - (WAAS?) (Tim Olson)
7. 07:30 AM - Rudder Wiring (John Kirkland)
8. 07:34 AM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Olson)
9. 07:42 AM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Olson)
10. 07:56 AM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
11. 08:01 AM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Doerr, Ray R [NTK])
12. 08:15 AM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
13. 08:36 AM - Picture of -10 rudder wiring (John Hasbrouck)
14. 08:40 AM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto)
15. 09:48 AM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Olson)
16. 12:43 PM - Anyone know when Doug Peterson's RV-10 is going to fly? ()
17. 12:49 PM - Re: Anyone know when Doug Peterson's RV-10 is going to fly? (Randy DeBauw)
18. 04:16 PM - Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS (Droopy Erickson)
19. 06:31 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Jesse Saint)
20. 07:00 PM - Re: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS (Tim Olson)
21. 08:37 PM - Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
22. 09:49 PM - Gas Strut Bracket (DejaVu)
23. 10:31 PM - Panel Design (Richard Sipp)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - (WAAS?) |
Tim,
I hear this of a lot of pilots in regards to WAAS. Having flow a lot of IFR on
the East coast behind the Garmin 430, I haven't found one instance where having
WAAS would have changed (improved) any of my flights. I've had a 430 for about
5 years now and have had the software updated a few times providing increased
functionality.
While Garmin has been extremely late in delivering WAAS, I think they realize that
delivery of WAAS now won't change much for most pilots in the short term.
They thus put their priorities elsewhere. I have more confidence in Garmin delivering
WAAS than some of the other vendors.
The FAA has committed to 300 new WAAS approaches per year. These will be WAAS
LPV approaches to runways that already have at least a CAT I ILS. This is because
a WAAS approach requires runway lighting similar to that for an ILS. All
current WAAS LPV are to runways that also have ILS. WAAS LNAV/VNAV approaches
typically have minimums higher (visibility -due to lack of runway lighting) than
LNAV-only minimums so the operational advantage of WAAS is unclear. I think
it will be a few years before WAAS becomes a must have for me.
As of a few months ago, the Garmin 480 now gives "advisory" vertical guidance on
some LNAV-only approaches. This should be used with caution and full understanding
of the approach and its potential pitfalls.
>Vaporware really irratates me. The 430 will turn into a great
>radio from a good radio when WAAS is added as standard equipment.
>...as long as it's approved for WAAS approaches. They don't have
>it today though, so it's really not much of an option for me.
>.
>.
>Tim
William
#40237
http://members.core.com/~wcurtis/RV/
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
Since we are comparing panels, here is what mine looks like.
I don't have the budget right now for the large EFIS screens, so I
choose the Dynon EFIS and Engine Monitor with enough traditional
instruments for backup. I figure I can always change out the panel on
the pilot side down the road with the latest and greatest EFIS at a
later date when more money is available.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
CDNI Principal Engineer
Sprint PCS
16020 West 113th Street
Lenexa, KS 66219
Mailstop KSLNXK0101
(913) 859-1414 (Office)
(913) 226-0106 (Pcs)
(913) 859-1234 (Fax)
Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
My thinking on this was to try and keep the costs down while still providing
some redundancy. I would absolutely love to have something like the G1000 but
can't justify the cost. I really had to rope in my thinking back to when I got
my IFR certification with steam gauges and no GPS. Even the Sport is a quantum
leap from that.
The Chelton's were what I always really wanted but I feel they have been falling
behind because of their certification status. What they should consider doing,
now that they are once again recognizing that the experimental market is
a BIG market, is use their non-certified version for essentially beta testing.
If they were to "try out" new things in the experimentals, it would allow them
to really fine tune changes before they spend the $$ to make it certified
and it would allow them to be much more competitive in the experimental market.
I like BMA's Sport and they currently have probably the best depiction short
of Avidyne or OP and they also have HIT's. Chelton is supposed to be adding realistic
terrain once NASA releases is ground mapping it did about a year ago
and they will probably be on top again once this happens. The BMA *should* be
able to take GPSV from the 480 if it's output like any other ILS type signal
and the BMA will accept it (haven't looked into it as I expect this to change
by the time I need it). I really don't plan on using any other screen on the
Sport as it's really useless on these to have the HSI on anything other than a
split screen but I suppose that's how they get you to buy multiple units.
While the MX20 won't give me HSI functionality, I wanted to focus more of a straight
up and down scan while flying an approach near minimums. Having guidance
and flight information directly above the map/weather/traffic should reduce
the head movements that tend to induce vertigo and allow your peripheral vision
to pick up stuff much quicker. And having the AOA directly above the Sport
will allow for a natural transition to visual for a landing while still providing
butt saving info. I plan on using one of JD's Infinity grips so I plan
to have most buttons/switches needed for an approach available without moving
my hands.
Of course this current iteration will probably go completely out the window by
the time I get to writing a check, but it helps to begin thinking about it in
advance. Not to mention I have no idea if all of this can even be integrated.
My two cents
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Very interesting. I think you have the proper amount of regular instruments there...
Very different having the MX-20 apart from the GNS-480....does it make
a good HSI display like a PFD does?
The Blue Mountain is the only part that I myself couldn't do.
That sport has an awesome looking screen, but GRT has what seems to be a much stronger
product functionally at present. But, things change, and every day everyone
gets closer to improvements. Since you have time to spare, hold off until
you have to...
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> I'm thinking something along the lines of the picture I attached. I
> have at least 2 years before I need to make the hard decisions so
> we'll see what happens between now and then. I also would like to
> replace the analog gauges with a single unit but I'm still not to the
> point where I feel comfortable being in hard IFR with a 100%
> electrically dependant aircraft. At least I can revert to airspeed
> and altitude if everything else fails.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:27 PM
> To: RV10
> Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I
> decided to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that
> with all my
> 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you insist
> on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast.
> It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with
> Chelton, who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a
> 2 screen Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free
> TruTrak autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far)
> EFIS, and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list.
> My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go
> the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel
> should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use
> that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking is I
> won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me though,
> function before beauty.
>
> I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for
> in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
> equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they have online.
> The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
>
> Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with
> TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it
> working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
>
> I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
> through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
> get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features
> and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon.
>
> A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
> SL-30/SL-40
> GNS-480/SL-40
> GNS-480/SL-30
> SL-30/SL-30
> Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
> Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
> So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The
> GNS-480 would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton
> offers fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My
> worry is that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at a GNS-480.
> Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480
> doesn't add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The
> Cheltons got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all
> other enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
> capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS which
> is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the best
> integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an SL-30/SL-40
> combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd want to do WAAS approaches.
>
> So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
> Current project: Fuselage
>
>
> --
>
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
Okay, you want glass, I'll give you glass . . .
P.S. The left hand glass is supposed to be an Avidyne Entegra PFD.
P.P.S. The GX60 and SL30 are below in a center stack but couldn't get them in
on epanelbuilder.
P.P.P.S. The backup ADI is a TruTrak.
P.P.P.P.S. MP3 player goes on right side below transponder . . .
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK]
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Since we are comparing panels, here is what mine looks like. I don't
have the budget right now for the large EFIS screens, so I choose the Dynon
EFIS and Engine Monitor with enough traditional instruments for backup. I figure
I can always change out the panel on the pilot side down the road with the
latest and greatest EFIS at a later date when more money is available.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
CDNI Principal Engineer
Sprint PCS
16020 West 113th Street
Lenexa, KS 66219
Mailstop KSLNXK0101
(913) 859-1414 (Office)
(913) 226-0106 (Pcs)
(913) 859-1234 (Fax)
Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Ray,
Very clean and flyable too! Question....why the 2 GNS-480's
instead of one plus an SL-30? What function are you hoping to
gain from having 2. The GNS-480's will run you $5k over the
SL-30. I'm not being critical, actually just hoping to understand
your viewpoint.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:
> Since we are comparing panels, here is what mine looks
> like. I dont have the budget right now for the large EFIS screens, so
> I choose the Dynon EFIS and Engine Monitor with enough traditional
> instruments for backup. I figure I can always change out the panel on
> the pilot side down the road with the latest and greatest EFIS at a
> later date when more money is available.
>
>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - (WAAS?) |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Heya William. Agreed, I understand that WAAS will not give much
to me at all right now. I have NO airports with WAAS approaches that I
currently visit...and have never flown into one where it was offered.
I think though, that since Garmin bought UPS that they put much
less time criticality into the WAAS upgrade project. Now they
have the 480, so they work less hard to get the 430 up to snuff.
So, I totally agree that it's a few years before WAAS is a MUST HAVE.
In fact, the Chelton WILL do WAAS approaches, just not legally.
So, if I really wanted to be illegal, I could still fly the approach
without a separate WAAS receiver. That's why I was looking at doing
the FreeFlight remote GPS in the future, and not the 480. The
Freeflight would not mean cutting my panel later, and would give
legal WAAS to me.
At present though, unless it's going to give me WAAS, NONE of those
expensive radios will add good function for me to the Chelton
that an SL-30 couldn't do. I could use a handheld GPS as a backup
if wanted, and spend a hell of a lot less money. Going with a 430
in my brand new panel though, wouldn't be a good idea. It would still
need to be a PAID FOR upgrade later to get WAAS, it wouldn't auto-tune
from the chelton, gives no functionality to me today that I don't
already have....it's a great radio, but expensive enough that if
you spend that much, you may as well spend the $8500 and
get the 480 and get the WAAS overwith.
Tim
William Curtis wrote:
> Tim,
>
> I hear this of a lot of pilots in regards to WAAS. Having flow a lot of
> IFR on the East coast behind the Garmin 430, I haven't found one
> instance where having WAAS would have changed (improved) any of my
> flights. I've had a 430 for about 5 years now and have had the software
> updated a few times providing increased functionality.
>
> While Garmin has been extremely late in delivering WAAS, I think they
> realize that delivery of WAAS now won't change much for most pilots in
> the short term. They thus put their priorities elsewhere. I have more
> confidence in Garmin delivering WAAS than some of the other vendors.
>
> The FAA has committed to 300 new WAAS approaches per year. These will be
> WAAS LPV approaches to runways that already have at least a CAT I ILS.
> This is because a WAAS approach requires runway lighting similar to that
> for an ILS. All current WAAS LPV are to runways that also have ILS. WAAS
> LNAV/VNAV approaches typically have minimums higher (visibility -due to
> lack of runway lighting) than LNAV-only minimums so the operational
> advantage of WAAS is unclear. I think it will be a few years before WAAS
> becomes a must have for me.
>
> As of a few months ago, the Garmin 480 now gives "advisory" vertical
> guidance on some LNAV-only approaches. This should be used with caution
> and full understanding of the approach and its potential pitfalls.
>
>
> >Vaporware really irratates me. The 430 will turn into a great
> >radio from a good radio when WAAS is added as standard equipment.
> >...as long as it's approved for WAAS approaches. They don't have
> >it today though, so it's really not much of an option for me.
> >.
> >.
> >Tim
>
> William
> #40237
> http://members.core.com/~wcurtis/RV/
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Kirkland" <jskirkland@webpipe.net>
Does anyone have a good pic showing how to run the tail position light /
strobe wiring from the rudder, through the VS spar, and into the tailcone.
There's a lot of obstacles, tiedown bracket, hinges, rudder horn, etc. Would
like to see a good routing for this.
John Kirkland
#40333
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Stuff inline...
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> My thinking on this was to try and keep the costs down while still
> providing some redundancy. I would absolutely love to have something
> like the G1000 but can't justify the cost. I really had to rope in my
> thinking back to when I got my IFR certification with steam gauges and
> no GPS. Even the Sport is a quantum leap from that.
>
True, but with the GRT or Chelton, you don't need that Sorcerer. It'll
cost you a few thousand less. If you get mult-screen chelton, you
don't need that MX-20...and you can get free weather. It's funny how
by changing in and out equipment you can actually cut down on the
need for so MUCH equipment. I wanted the ACS2005 too, until I
learned that by going GRT or Chelton, the EIS function would easily
save me another couple thousand. That's my point..my panel is
expensive because of 3 screens, but for people who are going to try
to jam all that other stuff in, that stuff's gonna add up too.
> The Chelton's were what I always really wanted but I feel they have
> been falling behind because of their certification status. What they
> should consider doing, now that they are once again recognizing that the
> experimental market is a BIG market, is use their non-certified version
> for essentially beta testing. If they were to "try out" new things in
> the experimentals, it would allow them to really fine tune changes
> before they spend the $$ to make it certified and it would allow them to
> be much more competitive in the experimental market.
>
I see your point about beta testing on us. It goes both way though...it
also means that WE get the proven reliability of the certified software.
I guess with all the functionality that IS there, when the rubber meets
the road I'm more happy putting my family in the plane knowing I'm
not a beta tester. ;) I actually though, can't see where you think
they're falling behind....can you point to an example? The HITS is
there, and others are trying to do that. The one thing I can think of
is the ability to actually put a Jepp chart on the screen. It will
put the approach on the screen in line format, so you can fly it, but
it won't put that black and white paper on the screen as far as I know.
> I like BMA's Sport and they currently have probably the best depiction
> short of Avidyne or OP and they also have HIT's. Chelton is supposed to
> be adding realistic terrain once NASA releases is ground mapping it did
> about a year ago and they will probably be on top again once this
> happens. The BMA *should* be able to take GPSV from the 480 if it's
> output like any other ILS type signal and the BMA will accept it
> (haven't looked into it as I expect this to change by the time I need
> it). I really don't plan on using any other screen on the Sport as it's
> really useless on these to have the HSI on anything other than a split
> screen but I suppose that's how they get you to buy multiple units.
>
I agree...it's damn pretty. I was completely sold on it the first day
I saw it during OSH 2004. Wasn't until I got deeper into the
functionality with Autopilots and other issues that I got turned off.
Oh, and the "attitude" I got from the people at OSH 2004 REALLy turned
me away. That OP stuff looked good too. Just last week I priced them
again....more $$ than the Chelton though. I thorougly worked over the
BMA GPSV issue at OSH 2004, and THAT was my first turn off. I asked
them if the BMA could make the autopilot fly a WAAS glideslope if fed
from a 480...they sais "why would you want to do that?" C'mon BMA!
Yeah, they'll probably update the software, but I'm still leery, and
they can't do it today, which is when I'm building the panel.
> While the MX20 won't give me HSI functionality, I wanted to focus more
> of a straight up and down scan while flying an approach near minimums.
> Having guidance and flight information directly above the
> map/weather/traffic should reduce the head movements that tend to induce
> vertigo and allow your peripheral vision to pick up stuff much quicker.
> And having the AOA directly above the Sport will allow for a natural
> transition to visual for a landing while still providing butt saving
> info. I plan on using one of JD's Infinity grips so I plan to have most
> buttons/switches needed for an approach available without moving my hands.
I did prefer the up/down layout too. I worried a lot about it. I have
an airline pilot buddy that visited me last week though, and I bounced
it off him. He said that in many of the heavy iron planes, they're
now side by side, and it's not at all a standard to have them
over/under. Just personal preference that you'll adapt to. I can see
that...right now I'm flying a steam gauge panel, and I'm scanning all
over the place....it can't get worse than that.
>
> Of course this current iteration will probably go completely out the
> window by the time I get to writing a check, but it helps to begin
> thinking about it in advance. Not to mention I have no idea if all of
> this can even be integrated.
>
That's for sure...that's how it was with me. I revised and completely
gutted my plans a bunch of times. Every time I learned more, I had
to change it. Before you write the check, you'll have time to
evaluate...the big thing is, take the layout to someone like Stein
before you actually go for it.....the guidance of the guys that build
these things for a living is worth it's weight in gold...and, these
guys usually know how things integrate.
Tim
> My two cents
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 12:05 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> Very interesting. I think you have the proper amount of regular
> instruments there... Very different having the MX-20 apart from the
> GNS-480....does it make a good HSI display like a PFD does?
> The Blue Mountain is the only part that I myself couldn't do.
> That sport has an awesome looking screen, but GRT has what seems to be a
> much stronger product functionally at present. But, things change, and
> every day everyone gets closer to improvements. Since you have time to
> spare, hold off until you have to...
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> > I'm thinking something along the lines of the picture I attached. I
> > have at least 2 years before I need to make the hard decisions so
> > we'll see what happens between now and then. I also would like to
> > replace the analog gauges with a single unit but I'm still not to the
> > point where I feel comfortable being in hard IFR with a 100%
> > electrically dependant aircraft. At least I can revert to airspeed
> > and altitude if everything else fails.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:27 PM
> > To: RV10
> > Subject: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
> >
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I
> > decided to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that
> > with all my
> > 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and SL-30, if you insist
> > on Traffic and Weather, things get real complicated real fast.
> > It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with
> > Chelton, who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a
> > 2 screen Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free
> > TruTrak autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far)
> > EFIS, and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list.
> > My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go
> > the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel
> > should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use
> > that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking is I
> > won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me though,
> > function before beauty.
> >
> > I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask for
> > in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
> > equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video they
> have online.
> > The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
> >
> > Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out with
> > TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton has it
> > working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
> >
> > I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
> > through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
> > get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a features
> > and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon.
> >
> > A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
> > SL-30/SL-40
> > GNS-480/SL-40
> > GNS-480/SL-30
> > SL-30/SL-30
> > Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
> > Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
> > So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The
> > GNS-480 would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton
> > offers fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My
> > worry is that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient
> at a GNS-480.
> > Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480
> > doesn't add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The
> > Cheltons got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all
> > other enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
> > capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS which
> > is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the best
> > integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an SL-30/SL-40
> > combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when I'd want to do
> WAAS approaches.
> >
> > So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > --
> > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
> > Current project: Fuselage
> >
> >
> > --
> >
>
>
>
> ====================================
> RV10-List Email Forum -
> more:
> bsp;
> s.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ====================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
See now, TDT here, HIS panel is beautiful. If I had the ability to
do whatever I wanted, cost not an option, this is very similar to
what I'd do (although I'd line up those round gauges on the left. ;>) )
Question though....what does this type of 2 panel system run in
actual market dollars that us mere mortals would pay? I can't find
anything for pricing, only that it's an option on production craft....
doesn't look like it's for sale to the homebuilt market, is it?
Geez, wish I had "connections". ;)
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
> Okay, you want glass, I'll give you glass . . .
>
> P.S. The left hand glass is supposed to be an Avidyne Entegra PFD.
>
> P.P.S. The GX60 and SL30 are below in a center stack but couldn't get
> them in on epanelbuilder.
>
> P.P.P.S. The backup ADI is a TruTrak.
>
> P.P.P.P.S. MP3 player goes on right side below transponder . . .
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]*On Behalf Of *Doerr,
> Ray R [NTK]
> *Sent:* Friday, May 27, 2005 9:31 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
> Since we are comparing panels, here is what mine looks
> like. I dont have the budget right now for the large EFIS screens,
> so I choose the Dynon EFIS and Engine Monitor with enough
> traditional instruments for backup. I figure I can always change
> out the panel on the pilot side down the road with the latest and
> greatest EFIS at a later date when more money is available.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank You
> *Ray Doerr*
> CDNI Principal Engineer
> Sprint PCS
> 16020 West 113th Street
> Lenexa, KS 66219
> Mailstop KSLNXK0101
> (913) 859-1414 (Office)
> (913) 226-0106 (Pcs)
> (913) 859-1234 (Fax)
> Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com
>
>
>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
Yeah, unfortunately our company focus has been on the OEM market for the Entegra
system. I keep dropping hints, though, so maybe eventually the "aftermarket"
will get more attention.
In the meantime, for those considering MX20, you might want to check out the Avidyne
EX500, with built-in "narrowcast" datalink and also an XM option. It also
has an option for displaying Jeppesen charts, which is pretty sweet . . .
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
See now, TDT here, HIS panel is beautiful. If I had the ability to
do whatever I wanted, cost not an option, this is very similar to
what I'd do (although I'd line up those round gauges on the left. ;>) )
Question though....what does this type of 2 panel system run in
actual market dollars that us mere mortals would pay? I can't find
anything for pricing, only that it's an option on production craft....
doesn't look like it's for sale to the homebuilt market, is it?
Geez, wish I had "connections". ;)
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
> Okay, you want glass, I'll give you glass . . .
>
> P.S. The left hand glass is supposed to be an Avidyne Entegra PFD.
>
> P.P.S. The GX60 and SL30 are below in a center stack but couldn't get
> them in on epanelbuilder.
>
> P.P.P.S. The backup ADI is a TruTrak.
>
> P.P.P.P.S. MP3 player goes on right side below transponder . . .
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]*On Behalf Of *Doerr,
> Ray R [NTK]
> *Sent:* Friday, May 27, 2005 9:31 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
> Since we are comparing panels, here is what mine looks
> like. I dont have the budget right now for the large EFIS screens,
> so I choose the Dynon EFIS and Engine Monitor with enough
> traditional instruments for backup. I figure I can always change
> out the panel on the pilot side down the road with the latest and
> greatest EFIS at a later date when more money is available.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank You
> *Ray Doerr*
> CDNI Principal Engineer
> Sprint PCS
> 16020 West 113th Street
> Lenexa, KS 66219
> Mailstop KSLNXK0101
> (913) 859-1414 (Office)
> (913) 226-0106 (Pcs)
> (913) 859-1234 (Fax)
> Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com
>
>
>
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com>
Actually they are dual GNS 430's. I stole the one 430 from my
RV-9A and plan on buying the second one with the WAAS already in it once
Garmin has it available. If it isn't ready, I'll just buy the second
430 and add the WAAS as an upgrade when it is available.
At one point I was going to use the GNS 530/SL30 but then the
430 I already have would not be used. Also I really like a vertical
stack with everything together and there isn't enough room for a
GNS530/430 combo, and it's also costs another 4K.
I figure with the 3 part panel it will not be too bad in the
future if one wants to change out one part for newer glass instruments.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
CDNI Principal Engineer
Sprint PCS
16020 West 113th Street
Lenexa, KS 66219
Mailstop KSLNXK0101
(913) 859-1414 (Office)
(913) 226-0106 (Pcs)
(913) 859-1234 (Fax)
Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Ray,
Very clean and flyable too! Question....why the 2 GNS-480's
instead of one plus an SL-30? What function are you hoping to
gain from having 2. The GNS-480's will run you $5k over the
SL-30. I'm not being critical, actually just hoping to understand
your viewpoint.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:
> Since we are comparing panels, here is what mine looks
> like. I don't have the budget right now for the large EFIS screens,
so
> I choose the Dynon EFIS and Engine Monitor with enough traditional
> instruments for backup. I figure I can always change out the panel on
> the pilot side down the road with the latest and greatest EFIS at a
> later date when more money is available.
>
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
Absolutely agree with everything below. I think have all beaten up on BMA's
attitude a few times now. I really hope they switch to a more customer centric
view soon or they may find themselves with a bad word of mouth reputation.
My comment on Chelton falling behind is mainly around the graphics on the display.
Wireframe and low res graphics in 2005 is a bit of a buzzkill on an otherwise
outstanding system. I also get a little concerned about putting all of
my eggs in one basket so to speak. Part of me likes the idea of having a separate
nav displays/autopilot/etc should a gremlin decide cause a wire to come
loose on the PFD during an approach to minimums at Aspen at night or something
equally as silly.
By the time I get around to really planning my panel I fully expect the landscape
to change and, while doing due diligence, will probably come to a similar
conclusion as you. Right now I'm comfortably in a state of denial on the cost
of the panel and looking at each individual component cost is a lot less painful
than looking at the cost of a (probably cheaper) 2 screen Chelton. ;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@MyRV10.com <mailto:Tim@MyRV10.com> ]
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Stuff inline...
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> My thinking on this was to try and keep the costs down while still
> providing some redundancy. I would absolutely love to have something
> like the G1000 but can't justify the cost. I really had to rope in my
> thinking back to when I got my IFR certification with steam gauges and
> no GPS. Even the Sport is a quantum leap from that.
>
True, but with the GRT or Chelton, you don't need that Sorcerer. It'll cost you
a few thousand less. If you get mult-screen chelton, you don't need that MX-20...and
you can get free weather. It's funny how by changing in and out equipment
you can actually cut down on the need for so MUCH equipment. I wanted the
ACS2005 too, until I learned that by going GRT or Chelton, the EIS function
would easily save me another couple thousand. That's my point..my panel is expensive
because of 3 screens, but for people who are going to try to jam all
that other stuff in, that stuff's gonna add up too.
> The Chelton's were what I always really wanted but I feel they have
> been falling behind because of their certification status. What they
> should consider doing, now that they are once again recognizing that
> the experimental market is a BIG market, is use their non-certified
> version for essentially beta testing. If they were to "try out" new
> things in the experimentals, it would allow them to really fine tune
> changes before they spend the $$ to make it certified and it would
> allow them to be much more competitive in the experimental market.
>
I see your point about beta testing on us. It goes both way though...it also means
that WE get the proven reliability of the certified software.
I guess with all the functionality that IS there, when the rubber meets the road
I'm more happy putting my family in the plane knowing I'm not a beta tester.
;) I actually though, can't see where you think they're falling behind....can
you point to an example? The HITS is there, and others are trying to do that.
The one thing I can think of is the ability to actually put a Jepp chart on
the screen. It will put the approach on the screen in line format, so you can
fly it, but it won't put that black and white paper on the screen as far as
I know.
> I like BMA's Sport and they currently have probably the best
> depiction short of Avidyne or OP and they also have HIT's. Chelton is
> supposed to be adding realistic terrain once NASA releases is ground
> mapping it did about a year ago and they will probably be on top again
> once this happens. The BMA *should* be able to take GPSV from the 480
> if it's output like any other ILS type signal and the BMA will accept
> it (haven't looked into it as I expect this to change by the time I
> need it). I really don't plan on using any other screen on the Sport
> as it's really useless on these to have the HSI on anything other than
> a split screen but I suppose that's how they get you to buy multiple units.
>
I agree...it's damn pretty. I was completely sold on it the first day
I saw it during OSH 2004. Wasn't until I got deeper into the
functionality with Autopilots and other issues that I got turned off.
Oh, and the "attitude" I got from the people at OSH 2004 REALLy turned me away.
That OP stuff looked good too. Just last week I priced them
again....more $$ than the Chelton though. I thorougly worked over the
BMA GPSV issue at OSH 2004, and THAT was my first turn off. I asked them if the
BMA could make the autopilot fly a WAAS glideslope if fed from a 480...they
sais "why would you want to do that?" C'mon BMA!
Yeah, they'll probably update the software, but I'm still leery, and they can't
do it today, which is when I'm building the panel.
> While the MX20 won't give me HSI functionality, I wanted to focus
> more of a straight up and down scan while flying an approach near minimums.
> Having guidance and flight information directly above the
> map/weather/traffic should reduce the head movements that tend to
> induce vertigo and allow your peripheral vision to pick up stuff much quicker.
> And having the AOA directly above the Sport will allow for a natural
> transition to visual for a landing while still providing butt saving
> info. I plan on using one of JD's Infinity grips so I plan to have
> most buttons/switches needed for an approach available without moving my hands.
I did prefer the up/down layout too. I worried a lot about it. I have an airline
pilot buddy that visited me last week though, and I bounced it off him. He
said that in many of the heavy iron planes, they're now side by side, and it's
not at all a standard to have them over/under. Just personal preference that
you'll adapt to. I can see that...right now I'm flying a steam gauge panel,
and I'm scanning all over the place....it can't get worse than that.
>
> Of course this current iteration will probably go completely out the
> window by the time I get to writing a check, but it helps to begin
> thinking about it in advance. Not to mention I have no idea if all of
> this can even be integrated.
>
That's for sure...that's how it was with me. I revised and completely gutted my
plans a bunch of times. Every time I learned more, I had to change it. Before
you write the check, you'll have time to evaluate...the big thing is, take
the layout to someone like Stein before you actually go for it.....the guidance
of the guys that build these things for a living is worth it's weight in gold...and,
these guys usually know how things integrate.
Tim
> My two cents
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> ] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 12:05 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> Very interesting. I think you have the proper amount of regular
> instruments there... Very different having the MX-20 apart from the
> GNS-480....does it make a good HSI display like a PFD does?
> The Blue Mountain is the only part that I myself couldn't do.
> That sport has an awesome looking screen, but GRT has what seems to be
> a much stronger product functionally at present. But, things change,
> and every day everyone gets closer to improvements. Since you have
> time to spare, hold off until you have to...
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> > I'm thinking something along the lines of the picture I attached. I
> > have at least 2 years before I need to make the hard decisions so
> > we'll see what happens between now and then. I also would like to
> > replace the analog gauges with a single unit but I'm still not to
> the > point where I feel comfortable being in hard IFR with a 100% >
> electrically dependant aircraft. At least I can revert to airspeed >
> and altitude if everything else fails.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> ] On Behalf Of Tim
> Olson > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:27 PM > To: RV10 > Subject:
> RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen > > Hey guys, > >
> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I >
> decided to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that
> > with all my > 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and
> SL-30, if you insist > on Traffic and Weather, things get real
> complicated real fast.
> > It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with >
> Chelton, who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a
> > 2 screen Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free
> > TruTrak autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far)
> > EFIS, and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list.
> > My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go
> > the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel
> > should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use
> > that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking is I
> > won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me
> though, > function before beauty.
> >
> > I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask
> for > in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
> > equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ <http://www.direct2avionics.com/> watch the video
> they have online.
> > The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
> >
> > Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out
> with > TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton
> has it > working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
> >
> > I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
> > through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
> > get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a
> features > and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon.
> >
> > A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
> > SL-30/SL-40
> > GNS-480/SL-40
> > GNS-480/SL-30
> > SL-30/SL-30
> > Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
> > Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
> > So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The >
> GNS-480 would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton >
> offers fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My >
> worry is that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at
> a GNS-480.
> > Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 >
> doesn't add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The >
> Cheltons got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all
> > other enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
> > capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS
> which > is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the
> best > integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an
> SL-30/SL-40 > combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when
> I'd want to do WAAS approaches.
> >
> > So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > --
> > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
> > Current project: Fuselage
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
>
>
>
> RV10-List Email Forum -
> more:
> bsp;
> s.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
>
>
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Picture of -10 rudder wiring |
John,
Here's a picture I took at SnF of -10 number two at Vans. I had the same question.
They ran the wires just under the lower most hinge bracket in the VS
spar. I think this also goes through the tiedown bracket flange. Hope it's clear
enough for you.
John Hasbrouck
#40264
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
Hmm. I'd recommend going to your alternate instead of flying an approach to minimums
at Aspen at night. Just ask those Gulfstream guys who packed it in . .
.
Check out the chart - yikes!
TDT
-----Original Message-----
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Absolutely agree with everything below. I think have all beaten up on BMA's
attitude a few times now. I really hope they switch to a more customer centric
view soon or they may find themselves with a bad word of mouth reputation.
My comment on Chelton falling behind is mainly around the graphics on the display.
Wireframe and low res graphics in 2005 is a bit of a buzzkill on an otherwise
outstanding system. I also get a little concerned about putting all of
my eggs in one basket so to speak. Part of me likes the idea of having a separate
nav displays/autopilot/etc should a gremlin decide cause a wire to come
loose on the PFD during an approach to minimums at Aspen at night or something
equally as silly.
By the time I get around to really planning my panel I fully expect the landscape
to change and, while doing due diligence, will probably come to a similar
conclusion as you. Right now I'm comfortably in a state of denial on the cost
of the panel and looking at each individual component cost is a lot less painful
than looking at the cost of a (probably cheaper) 2 screen Chelton. ;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Olson [ <mailto:Tim@MyRV10.com> mailto:Tim@MyRV10.com]
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Stuff inline...
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> My thinking on this was to try and keep the costs down while still
> providing some redundancy. I would absolutely love to have something
> like the G1000 but can't justify the cost. I really had to rope in my
> thinking back to when I got my IFR certification with steam gauges and
> no GPS. Even the Sport is a quantum leap from that.
>
True, but with the GRT or Chelton, you don't need that Sorcerer. It'll cost you
a few thousand less. If you get mult-screen chelton, you don't need that MX-20...and
you can get free weather. It's funny how by changing in and out equipment
you can actually cut down on the need for so MUCH equipment. I wanted the
ACS2005 too, until I learned that by going GRT or Chelton, the EIS function
would easily save me another couple thousand. That's my point..my panel is expensive
because of 3 screens, but for people who are going to try to jam all
that other stuff in, that stuff's gonna add up too.
> The Chelton's were what I always really wanted but I feel they have
> been falling behind because of their certification status. What they
> should consider doing, now that they are once again recognizing that
> the experimental market is a BIG market, is use their non-certified
> version for essentially beta testing. If they were to "try out" new
> things in the experimentals, it would allow them to really fine tune
> changes before they spend the $$ to make it certified and it would
> allow them to be much more competitive in the experimental market.
>
I see your point about beta testing on us. It goes both way though...it also means
that WE get the proven reliability of the certified software.
I guess with all the functionality that IS there, when the rubber meets the road
I'm more happy putting my family in the plane knowing I'm not a beta tester.
;) I actually though, can't see where you think they're falling behind....can
you point to an example? The HITS is there, and others are trying to do that.
The one thing I can think of is the ability to actually put a Jepp chart on
the screen. It will put the approach on the screen in line format, so you can
fly it, but it won't put that black and white paper on the screen as far as
I know.
> I like BMA's Sport and they currently have probably the best
> depiction short of Avidyne or OP and they also have HIT's. Chelton is
> supposed to be adding realistic terrain once NASA releases is ground
> mapping it did about a year ago and they will probably be on top again
> once this happens. The BMA *should* be able to take GPSV from the 480
> if it's output like any other ILS type signal and the BMA will accept
> it (haven't looked into it as I expect this to change by the time I
> need it). I really don't plan on using any other screen on the Sport
> as it's really useless on these to have the HSI on anything other than
> a split screen but I suppose that's how they get you to buy multiple units.
>
I agree...it's damn pretty. I was completely sold on it the first day
I saw it during OSH 2004. Wasn't until I got deeper into the
functionality with Autopilots and other issues that I got turned off.
Oh, and the "attitude" I got from the people at OSH 2004 REALLy turned me away.
That OP stuff looked good too. Just last week I priced them
again....more $$ than the Chelton though. I thorougly worked over the
BMA GPSV issue at OSH 2004, and THAT was my first turn off. I asked them if the
BMA could make the autopilot fly a WAAS glideslope if fed from a 480...they
sais "why would you want to do that?" C'mon BMA!
Yeah, they'll probably update the software, but I'm still leery, and they can't
do it today, which is when I'm building the panel.
> While the MX20 won't give me HSI functionality, I wanted to focus
> more of a straight up and down scan while flying an approach near minimums.
> Having guidance and flight information directly above the
> map/weather/traffic should reduce the head movements that tend to
> induce vertigo and allow your peripheral vision to pick up stuff much quicker.
> And having the AOA directly above the Sport will allow for a natural
> transition to visual for a landing while still providing butt saving
> info. I plan on using one of JD's Infinity grips so I plan to have
> most buttons/switches needed for an approach available without moving my hands.
I did prefer the up/down layout too. I worried a lot about it. I have an airline
pilot buddy that visited me last week though, and I bounced it off him. He
said that in many of the heavy iron planes, they're now side by side, and it's
not at all a standard to have them over/under. Just personal preference that
you'll adapt to. I can see that...right now I'm flying a steam gauge panel,
and I'm scanning all over the place....it can't get worse than that.
>
> Of course this current iteration will probably go completely out the
> window by the time I get to writing a check, but it helps to begin
> thinking about it in advance. Not to mention I have no idea if all of
> this can even be integrated.
>
That's for sure...that's how it was with me. I revised and completely gutted my
plans a bunch of times. Every time I learned more, I had to change it. Before
you write the check, you'll have time to evaluate...the big thing is, take
the layout to someone like Stein before you actually go for it.....the guidance
of the guys that build these things for a living is worth it's weight in gold...and,
these guys usually know how things integrate.
Tim
> My two cents
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [ <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 12:05 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> Very interesting. I think you have the proper amount of regular
> instruments there... Very different having the MX-20 apart from the
> GNS-480....does it make a good HSI display like a PFD does?
> The Blue Mountain is the only part that I myself couldn't do.
> That sport has an awesome looking screen, but GRT has what seems to be
> a much stronger product functionally at present. But, things change,
> and every day everyone gets closer to improvements. Since you have
> time to spare, hold off until you have to...
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> > I'm thinking something along the lines of the picture I attached. I
> > have at least 2 years before I need to make the hard decisions so
> > we'll see what happens between now and then. I also would like to
> > replace the analog gauges with a single unit but I'm still not to
> the > point where I feel comfortable being in hard IFR with a 100% >
> electrically dependant aircraft. At least I can revert to airspeed >
> and altitude if everything else fails.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > [ <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
> Olson > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:27 PM > To: RV10 > Subject:
> RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen > > Hey guys, > >
> I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I >
> decided to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that
> > with all my > 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and
> SL-30, if you insist > on Traffic and Weather, things get real
> complicated real fast.
> > It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with >
> Chelton, who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a
> > 2 screen Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free
> > TruTrak autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far)
> > EFIS, and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list.
> > My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go
> > the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel
> > should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use
> > that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking is I
> > won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me
> though, > function before beauty.
> >
> > I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask
> for > in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
> > equipment, go to <http://www.direct2avionics.com/> http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video
> they have online.
> > The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
> >
> > Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out
> with > TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton
> has it > working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full featured.
> >
> > I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
> > through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
> > get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a
> features > and benefits list on my panel section regarding this equipment soon.
> >
> > A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
> > SL-30/SL-40
> > GNS-480/SL-40
> > GNS-480/SL-30
> > SL-30/SL-30
> > Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
> > Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
> > So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The >
> GNS-480 would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton >
> offers fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My >
> worry is that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at
> a GNS-480.
> > Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 >
> doesn't add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The >
> Cheltons got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all
> > other enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
> > capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS
> which > is a remote mount. From some direction I've been given, the
> best > integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an
> SL-30/SL-40 > combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when
> I'd want to do WAAS approaches.
> >
> > So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > --
> > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
> > Current project: Fuselage
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
>
>
>
> RV10-List Email Forum -
> more:
> bsp;
> s.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
>
>
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
If you don't like the Chelton graphics.....boy, you must really not
like the Dynon, and especially the GRT. The actual graphics of the
GRT really turn me off...but the function is real nice. The sport
is an absolutely FANTASTIC screen, I do have to admit.
I don't think you have all the eggs in one basket...they're independent
displays.
My advice...Budget a lot of cash, like $65K. Then you can be
very pleasantly surprised when you find you can get what you want for
much less. ;)
Tim
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> Absolutely agree with everything below. I think have all beaten up on
> BMA's attitude a few times now. I really hope they switch to a more
> customer centric view soon or they may find themselves with a bad word
> of mouth reputation.
>
> My comment on Chelton falling behind is mainly around the graphics on
> the display. Wireframe and low res graphics in 2005 is a bit of a
> buzzkill on an otherwise outstanding system. I also get a little
> concerned about putting all of my eggs in one basket so to speak. Part
> of me likes the idea of having a separate nav displays/autopilot/etc
> should a gremlin decide cause a wire to come loose on the PFD during an
> approach to minimums at Aspen at night or something equally as silly.
>
> By the time I get around to really planning my panel I fully expect
> the landscape to change and, while doing due diligence, will probably
> come to a similar conclusion as you. Right now I'm comfortably in a
> state of denial on the cost of the panel and looking at each individual
> component cost is a lot less painful than looking at the cost of a
> (probably cheaper) 2 screen Chelton. ;-)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@MyRV10.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 9:34 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
>
> Stuff inline...
>
>
> RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> > My thinking on this was to try and keep the costs down while still
> > providing some redundancy. I would absolutely love to have something
> > like the G1000 but can't justify the cost. I really had to rope in my
> > thinking back to when I got my IFR certification with steam gauges and
> > no GPS. Even the Sport is a quantum leap from that.
> >
>
> True, but with the GRT or Chelton, you don't need that Sorcerer. It'll
> cost you a few thousand less. If you get mult-screen chelton, you don't
> need that MX-20...and you can get free weather. It's funny how by
> changing in and out equipment you can actually cut down on the need for
> so MUCH equipment. I wanted the ACS2005 too, until I learned that by
> going GRT or Chelton, the EIS function would easily save me another
> couple thousand. That's my point..my panel is expensive because of 3
> screens, but for people who are going to try to jam all that other stuff
> in, that stuff's gonna add up too.
>
>
> > The Chelton's were what I always really wanted but I feel they have
> > been falling behind because of their certification status. What they
> > should consider doing, now that they are once again recognizing that
> > the experimental market is a BIG market, is use their non-certified
> > version for essentially beta testing. If they were to "try out" new
> > things in the experimentals, it would allow them to really fine tune
> > changes before they spend the $$ to make it certified and it would
> > allow them to be much more competitive in the experimental market.
> >
>
> I see your point about beta testing on us. It goes both way though...it
> also means that WE get the proven reliability of the certified software.
> I guess with all the functionality that IS there, when the rubber meets
> the road I'm more happy putting my family in the plane knowing I'm not a
> beta tester. ;) I actually though, can't see where you think they're
> falling behind....can you point to an example? The HITS is there, and
> others are trying to do that. The one thing I can think of is the
> ability to actually put a Jepp chart on the screen. It will put the
> approach on the screen in line format, so you can fly it, but it won't
> put that black and white paper on the screen as far as I know.
>
>
> > I like BMA's Sport and they currently have probably the best
> > depiction short of Avidyne or OP and they also have HIT's. Chelton is
> > supposed to be adding realistic terrain once NASA releases is ground
> > mapping it did about a year ago and they will probably be on top again
> > once this happens. The BMA *should* be able to take GPSV from the 480
> > if it's output like any other ILS type signal and the BMA will accept
> > it (haven't looked into it as I expect this to change by the time I
> > need it). I really don't plan on using any other screen on the Sport
> > as it's really useless on these to have the HSI on anything other than
> > a split screen but I suppose that's how they get you to buy multiple
> units.
> >
>
> I agree...it's damn pretty. I was completely sold on it the first day
> I saw it during OSH 2004. Wasn't until I got deeper into the
> functionality with Autopilots and other issues that I got turned off.
> Oh, and the "attitude" I got from the people at OSH 2004 REALLy turned
> me away. That OP stuff looked good too. Just last week I priced them
> again....more $$ than the Chelton though. I thorougly worked over the
> BMA GPSV issue at OSH 2004, and THAT was my first turn off. I asked
> them if the BMA could make the autopilot fly a WAAS glideslope if fed
> from a 480...they sais "why would you want to do that?" C'mon BMA!
> Yeah, they'll probably update the software, but I'm still leery, and
> they can't do it today, which is when I'm building the panel.
>
>
>
> > While the MX20 won't give me HSI functionality, I wanted to focus
> > more of a straight up and down scan while flying an approach near
> minimums.
> > Having guidance and flight information directly above the
> > map/weather/traffic should reduce the head movements that tend to
> > induce vertigo and allow your peripheral vision to pick up stuff much
> quicker.
> > And having the AOA directly above the Sport will allow for a natural
> > transition to visual for a landing while still providing butt saving
> > info. I plan on using one of JD's Infinity grips so I plan to have
> > most buttons/switches needed for an approach available without moving
> my hands.
>
> I did prefer the up/down layout too. I worried a lot about it. I have
> an airline pilot buddy that visited me last week though, and I bounced
> it off him. He said that in many of the heavy iron planes, they're now
> side by side, and it's not at all a standard to have them over/under.
> Just personal preference that you'll adapt to. I can see that...right
> now I'm flying a steam gauge panel, and I'm scanning all over the
> place....it can't get worse than that.
>
> >
> > Of course this current iteration will probably go completely out the
> > window by the time I get to writing a check, but it helps to begin
> > thinking about it in advance. Not to mention I have no idea if all of
> > this can even be integrated.
> >
>
> That's for sure...that's how it was with me. I revised and completely
> gutted my plans a bunch of times. Every time I learned more, I had to
> change it. Before you write the check, you'll have time to
> evaluate...the big thing is, take the layout to someone like Stein
> before you actually go for it.....the guidance of the guys that build
> these things for a living is worth it's weight in gold...and, these guys
> usually know how things integrate.
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> > My two cents
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 12:05 AM
> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
> >
> > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
> >
> > Very interesting. I think you have the proper amount of regular
> > instruments there... Very different having the MX-20 apart from the
> > GNS-480....does it make a good HSI display like a PFD does?
> > The Blue Mountain is the only part that I myself couldn't do.
> > That sport has an awesome looking screen, but GRT has what seems to be
> > a much stronger product functionally at present. But, things change,
> > and every day everyone gets closer to improvements. Since you have
> > time to spare, hold off until you have to...
> >
> > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >
> > RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> > > I'm thinking something along the lines of the picture I attached. I
> > > have at least 2 years before I need to make the hard decisions so
> > > we'll see what happens between now and then. I also would like to
> > > replace the analog gauges with a single unit but I'm still not to
> > the > point where I feel comfortable being in hard IFR with a 100% >
> > electrically dependant aircraft. At least I can revert to airspeed >
> > and altitude if everything else fails.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
> > Olson > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:27 PM > To: RV10 > Subject:
> > RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen > > Hey guys, > >
> > I just veered off the panel highway in a very new direction. I >
> > decided to go with a Chelton 3 screen system. What I found was that
> > > with all my > 3 screen GRT stuff, plus the GNS-480, MX-20, and
> > SL-30, if you insist > on Traffic and Weather, things get real
> > complicated real fast.
> > > It is, of course, not cheap. But, I found that if you go with >
> > Chelton, who, by the way, has a deal going right now where you order a
> > > 2 screen Chelton system and you get either Free Weather, or a Free
> > > TruTrak autopilot, you really end up with a higher quality (by far)
> > > EFIS, and you may actually save money depending on your equipment list.
> > > My panel was pretty pricey, so I had to make the decision to not go
> > > the Fiberglass panel route in order to do it all. But, this panel
> > > should be easy for me to do myself, so I'll save that cost, and use
> > > that savings to add to hardware a bit. The only thing lacking is I
> > > won't have that awesome fiberglass panel and console. For me
> > though, > function before beauty.
> > >
> > > I found that the Chelton offers basically everything I could ask
> > for > in a panel. I suggest that people who are interested in their
> > > equipment, go to http://www.direct2avionics.com/ watch the video
> > they have online.
> > > The system is awesome, even including 3D terrain mapping.
> > >
> > > Oh, and at present, GRT doesn't have the integration worked out
> > with > TruTrak to do the vertical nav on the glideslope, but Chelton
> > has it > working with TruTrak, so it really does get to be full
> featured.
> > >
> > > I've attached a couple of pictures below that hopefully will come
> > > through for you to see. I'm actually working on the kit too much to
> > > get to any nice web page updating, but I'll be trying to do a
> > features > and benefits list on my panel section regarding this
> equipment soon.
> > >
> > > A present, I'm still undecided as to which radio combo I want to use:
> > > SL-30/SL-40
> > > GNS-480/SL-40
> > > GNS-480/SL-30
> > > SL-30/SL-30
> > > Any comments there would be appreciated to help my decision. The
> > > Chelton will actually send frequencies, and tune, your SL-30 or SL-40.
> > > So, the best Nav/Com to integrate to it would be that one. The >
> > GNS-480 would basically not be used very much, because the Chelton >
> > offers fantastic flight planning, and the approaches are in it. My >
> > worry is that if you use a Chelton all day, can you stay proficient at
> > a GNS-480.
> > > Other than a 2nd GPS and another screen to refer to, the GNS-480 >
> > doesn't add much except for a WAAS *LEGAL* approach receiver. The >
> > Cheltons got WAAS, but not legal for WAAS approaches....it is for all
> > > other enroute and terminal though I belive. If you want legal WAAS
> > > capability, the only 2 ways to go are GNS-480, or FreeFlight GPS
> > which > is a remote mount. >From some direction I've been given, the
> > best > integration/ease of use/cost benefit system, would be an
> > SL-30/SL-40 > combo, with the FreeFlight GPS added at the time when
> > I'd want to do WAAS approaches.
> > >
> > > So anyway, enjoy the pics. Comments online, or offline appreciated.
> > >
> > > Tim
> > >
> > > --
> > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
> > > Current project: Fuselage
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ====================================
> > RV10-List Email Forum -
> > more:
> > bsp;
> > s.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> > ====================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Anyone know when Doug Peterson's RV-10 is going to fly? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com>
Thank You
Ray Doerr
CDNI Principal Engineer
Sprint PCS
16020 West 113th Street
Lenexa, KS 66219
Mailstop KSLNXK0101
(913) 859-1414 (Office)
(913) 226-0106 (Pcs)
(913) 859-1234 (Fax)
Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com
Anyone know when Doug Peterson's RV-10 is going to fly? The
last thing on his site says he is waiting for the DAR and that was back
on May 7th.
Ray Doerr
40250
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Anyone know when Doug Peterson's RV-10 is going to fly? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
He emailed me and said that he didn't get the registration sent in. You
can't even have a DAR look a the plane until you have the white
registration card in hand. He was also going out of town for work. I
sounded like maybe 3 weeks still. Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R
[NTK]
Subject: RV10-List: Anyone know when Doug Peterson's RV-10 is going to
fly?
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]"
--> <Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com>
Thank You
Ray Doerr
CDNI Principal Engineer
Sprint PCS
16020 West 113th Street
Lenexa, KS 66219
Mailstop KSLNXK0101
(913) 859-1414 (Office)
(913) 226-0106 (Pcs)
(913) 859-1234 (Fax)
Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com
Anyone know when Doug Peterson's RV-10 is going to fly? The
last thing on his site says he is waiting for the DAR and that was back
on May 7th.
Ray Doerr
40250
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS |
Tim,
Couple of questions about your panel and the ongoing discussions. First
off, beautiful panel, similiar in lines to where I'm headed (a couple
years after you...).
GPS: You mentioned earlier (I'm to lazy to cut and paste from the
previous messages) that you couple legally fly enroute and terminal
approaches with the Chelton system, just not WAAS approaches. To do
that, you have to meet the TSO standards for enroute and terminal GPS.
Looking through the Chelton literature, it looks like a TSOd GPS
receiver was only an option on the Pro system. Is this what you're
getting, or do you know something I don't?
Autopilots: I love the Trutrack autopilots. I'm going with a Dynon as
my backup gauges vice the round dials (with an appropriate electrical
system to eliminate single point failures, etc). I feel the autopilot
gives me a third "backup" to at least get the plane top-side up. The
only reason I'm personnaly leaning towards the Sorcerer vice the
Digiflight is ILS capability. The Digiflight does not track ILS
approaches. My question, however, is whether you've been told the
Chelton will take the ILS signals, do it's thing to them, then drive the
Digiflight appropriately? (I guess the other reason for the Sorcerer
might be the Yaw damper. We'll have to ask Randy as things progress how
much, if any tail wag this thing has...)
EIS: I really want Rob's AFS2500. Not only do I thing the engine
display rocks, but I also really like the ability to put checklist pages
into it. Could you elaborate a little on what Chelton functionality we
lose if we go with a Chelton 2 screen (the two on the left side of your
panel) and a 2500 for the engine stuff?
Thanks for the great webpage and the wealth of great info you've
collected!!
John
#40208 Smelly fuel tanks
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
Wow! For wanting to stay away from the expensive instruments like the big
EFISes, that radio stack sure is expensive with the dual 430's..and a long
way away from the pilot. We wanted to focus on getting the important
instruments as close to the pilot as possible and were on a budget (already
had the 430). The Dynon is not as fancy or as big as those GRT's or
Chelton's, but for the panel on a budget, a single 430 and the Dynon systems
with a Trutrak ADI as a backup as well as a couple of basic backups like the
Airspeed and Altimeter we think is a great way to get good IFR without
having too much to look at or keep track of.
Notice that the radio stack is left of the center rib. I agree that this is
a bad design, but with this layout we don't have to worry about it. We
actually removed most of the meat of the bulkhead behind the panel and
reinforced it so we have plenty of room back there. We trimmed two of the
ribs reaching from there to the panel as well (not the center one) and
reinforced them. I can send pictures if anybody is interested. Everything
that the pilot will be needing while flying IFR is right there. The scan
will be Dynon EFIS - Garmin 430 - Dynon EFIS - Nav Display - Dynon EFIS
(with a check to the EMS from time to time to make sure there are no
"alarms", which I understand can be connected into the audio panel as well
for audio alarms.
We will have a handheld GPS and probably a handheld radio as a backup if the
power fails. We have backup batteries for the ADI and the Dynon's, so if
the alternator fails, we will be able to use them to get to and airport at
least, or to finish the flight to our destination with the handheld radio
and GPS.
You will notice the lack of switches and breakers. We made an aluminum
console from the panel down to the tunnel to hold all of that.
We just came out of the paint shop (wings get done tomorrow) and got the
engine mounted today. Most of the fuel and oil lines are hooked up. Next
week we install wings and tail and work on the baffles and cowling and start
wiring the fuse. Can't wait to see this bird in the air. Now that we are
done with the stinkin' fiberglass work, we are going to be seeing regular
progress towards our goal of flying on June 21st. I need to get some
pictures posted, but have been putting all of my time into the plane.
#40241
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R
[NTK]
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Since we are comparing panels, here is what mine looks like. I
don't have the budget right now for the large EFIS screens, so I choose the
Dynon EFIS and Engine Monitor with enough traditional instruments for
backup. I figure I can always change out the panel on the pilot side down
the road with the latest and greatest EFIS at a later date when more money
is available.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
CDNI Principal Engineer
Sprint PCS
16020 West 113th Street
Lenexa, KS 66219
Mailstop KSLNXK0101
(913) 859-1414 (Office)
(913) 226-0106 (Pcs)
(913) 859-1234 (Fax)
Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Droopy,
I'll address these as best I can.
GPS: You have my understanding down precisely. I'm not an expert in the
TSO legality area, but from what I've been told, the equipment will be
legal to fly GPS and other approaches....just not WAAS. I will do my
best to find out the true, 100% answer, with something leagalese to
back it up with next week when I can talk to Direct To Avionics. I'll
try to pull some real sold info out of them so we can bury this topic.
Autopilots. Yes, you have the theory right. The TruTrak is a great
stand-alone way to still keep yourself alive, and when you couple
the Digiflight with the Chelton (or GRT), you can then fly the ILS,
because the Nav signal goes into the GRT/Chelton and then the
GRT/Chelton runs the autopilot down the approach. If you don't
get a GRT or Chelton though, you're right, you'll want the Sorcerer...
which is why I initially went that route. I know at least one other
list member was talked OUT of the sorcerer by TruTrak in favor of
the DigiFlight for just this reason, so I have no reason to doubt it.
I don't know what to say bout the yaw damper...never used one. Don't
know how nice it would be...or necessary.
EIS: I also think Rob has a fantastic EIS. Everything about it is
spectacular. The only issue (right now) is that it doesn't integrate
into the Chelton if you have it. I don't think you'd lose any EIS
functionality by having the AFS2500....you would be losing out on
some additional Chelton functionality though....(or GRT if you went
that way). The thing is, that 3rd screen, if you put it over on
the right side, isn't JUST an EIS anymore at that point. It's also
a separate HSI, or Attitude display, or Map, or weather screen, or
any of those cool things, for your co-pilot to use. I often fly
with my Father, and we trade flying sometimes. I know I'll likely
not let him fly left seat in my plane....too hard to trust someone
else... :) but, having the 3rd screen will allow him to have all
the info he wants. My wife is also very interested in obtaining
some proficiency in running the maps and stuff. With this in mind,
I view that 3rd screen as being NOT an EIS for quite a bit of time.
I want an attitude, and Map or HSI up most of the time on the
left 2 screens. The right one, well, that will depend on the
situation.....in many cases it might just be an EIS.
I feel I need to apologise to the list for taking up so much bandwidth
on this panel topic...but I think there's a LOT of info out there that
is just not known. And, I think people assume these panels are EXTREME
in cost...so they try to piece together lots of things they want. Some
of the hardest info to come by is good, accurate info on how things
integrate. I've been making this panel my life until I get every
concept pinned down...and I just want to pass along the things I'm
finding out. Hopefully, we can all learn about EVERYONE's system, not
just the Chelton or GRT. I'm not at all a BMA fan anymore, despite
their beautiful Sport screen, but, as we move forward, they will
improve their integration too...so hopefully we can keep some good info
on true capabilities, and keep it current.
From what I've learned recently though, as I HAD to dig the info up
so I could pin down my choices and actually put money into things,
there are really 2 very nice routes to go. The GRT, and the Chelton.
Both will expand your capabilities immensely, and let you have
functions and features not possible in many other combos....and they
enhance the TruTrak as mentioned above...all while saving money.
The Chelton just adds a pile of higher quality and more features on
to the GRT. It's a system for either budget.
Very soon, I'll just sit down and start adding to my panel page. I'll
list known functionalities, with references if possible. That way there
will be a good reference out there without me taking up your bandwidth.
Maybe this weekend I'll get some time, but I'll need to get some
answers yet next week.
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
Droopy Erickson wrote:
> Tim,
>
> Couple of questions about your panel and the ongoing discussions. First
> off, beautiful panel, similiar in lines to where I'm headed (a couple
> years after you...).
>
> GPS: You mentioned earlier (I'm to lazy to cut and paste from the
> previous messages) that you couple legally fly enroute and terminal
> approaches with the Chelton system, just not WAAS approaches. To do
> that, you have to meet the TSO standards for enroute and terminal GPS.
> Looking through the Chelton literature, it looks like a TSOd GPS
> receiver was only an option on the Pro system. Is this what you're
> getting, or do you know something I don't?
>
> Autopilots: I love the Trutrack autopilots. I'm going with a Dynon as
> my backup gauges vice the round dials (with an appropriate electrical
> system to eliminate single point failures, etc). I feel the autopilot
> gives me a third "backup" to at least get the plane top-side up. The
> only reason I'm personnaly leaning towards the Sorcerer vice the
> Digiflight is ILS capability. The Digiflight does not track ILS
> approaches. My question, however, is whether you've been told the
> Chelton will take the ILS signals, do it's thing to them, then drive the
> Digiflight appropriately? (I guess the other reason for the Sorcerer
> might be the Yaw damper. We'll have to ask Randy as things progress how
> much, if any tail wag this thing has...)
>
> EIS: I really want Rob's AFS2500. Not only do I thing the engine
> display rocks, but I also really like the ability to put checklist pages
> into it. Could you elaborate a little on what Chelton functionality we
> lose if we go with a Chelton 2 screen (the two on the left side of your
> panel) and a 2500 for the engine stuff?
>
> Thanks for the great webpage and the wealth of great info you've collected!!
>
> John
> #40208 Smelly fuel tanks
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen |
Jesse:
How about a pre-view of your paint design?
TDT
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Jesse Saint
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Wow! For wanting to stay away from the expensive instruments like the big EFISes,
that radio stack sure is expensive with the dual 430's....and a long way away
from the pilot. We wanted to focus on getting the important instruments as
close to the pilot as possible and were on a budget (already had the 430).
The Dynon is not as fancy or as big as those GRT's or Chelton's, but for the panel
on a budget, a single 430 and the Dynon systems with a Trutrak ADI as a backup
as well as a couple of basic backups like the Airspeed and Altimeter we
think is a great way to get good IFR without having too much to look at or keep
track of.
Notice that the radio stack is left of the center rib. I agree that this is a
bad design, but with this layout we don't have to worry about it. We actually
removed most of the meat of the bulkhead behind the panel and reinforced it so
we have plenty of room back there. We trimmed two of the ribs reaching from
there to the panel as well (not the center one) and reinforced them. I can send
pictures if anybody is interested. Everything that the pilot will be needing
while flying IFR is right there. The scan will be Dynon EFIS - Garmin 430
- Dynon EFIS - Nav Display - Dynon EFIS (with a check to the EMS from time to
time to make sure there are no "alarms", which I understand can be connected
into the audio panel as well for audio alarms.
We will have a handheld GPS and probably a handheld radio as a backup if the power
fails. We have backup batteries for the ADI and the Dynon's, so if the alternator
fails, we will be able to use them to get to and airport at least, or
to finish the flight to our destination with the handheld radio and GPS.
You will notice the lack of switches and breakers. We made an aluminum console
from the panel down to the tunnel to hold all of that.
We just came out of the paint shop (wings get done tomorrow) and got the engine
mounted today. Most of the fuel and oil lines are hooked up. Next week we install
wings and tail and work on the baffles and cowling and start wiring the
fuse. Can't wait to see this bird in the air. Now that we are done with the
stinkin' fiberglass work, we are going to be seeing regular progress towards
our goal of flying on June 21st. I need to get some pictures posted, but have
been putting all of my time into the plane.
#40241
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK]
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Change - Going Chelton 3 Screen
Since we are comparing panels, here is what mine looks like. I don't
have the budget right now for the large EFIS screens, so I choose the Dynon
EFIS and Engine Monitor with enough traditional instruments for backup. I figure
I can always change out the panel on the pilot side down the road with the
latest and greatest EFIS at a later date when more money is available.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
CDNI Principal Engineer
Sprint PCS
16020 West 113th Street
Lenexa, KS 66219
Mailstop KSLNXK0101
(913) 859-1414 (Office)
(913) 226-0106 (Pcs)
(913) 859-1234 (Fax)
Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Gas Strut Bracket |
My gas strut bracket does not sit very nicely against the cabin top. The instructions
say that it should be positioned inboard/outboard for "best fit". Well,
my best fit would cause the strut attach point to be either too high and too
far outboard where the bracket at the other end would protrude into the window
about 1/4"; or it would be too low where a good portion of the cabin top
flange at the entry way would have to be trimmed. The latter matches the drawings
best.
Anyone had an easier fit than this?
Anh
#141
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
s=test1; d=earthlink.net;
b=r/evlFW/KqEBqnXxrhfT22DDbf8Kd2iuudP6ZZ5oqcBdxk9PlykXGJBVwInTwdUQ;
As long as we're talking about panel design (and you thought this thread was dead
:) what about switch and other component locations.
Cockpit procedures and checklists in today's automated airplanes are built around
memorized flow patterns. For each phase of flight; preflight, taxi, before
takeoff, landing etc. each crew member, from memory, accomplishes an eye/hand
trip around his portion of the cockpit moving switches and controls as necessary
for that checklist. Then, when each pilot has completed the flow, the non-flying
pilot reads the checklist items verifying that the proper items were
accomplished. This application of memorized "flows" has been shown to result
in fewer omissions than the older "read - respond" item by item checklist. Modern
airplane cockpit controls are being arranged to facilitate these practices.
If we are to accept this practice in our single pilot airplanes, we would
arrange the system control switches in the order they would normally be used.
Perhaps: bat master, alternator, ign., boost pump, start, avionics etc., etc,
pitot heat, landing lights. Arranging the switches in this way you work down
the row as the flight progresses. For normal operations all normal switches
should end up pointing in the same direction. Another application of the practice
places critical or emergency use only switches in a schematic diagram of
the system or near the component. Again, for us, this might be locating the
"E" bus alternate feed switch next to that bus's row of circuit breakers or, the
autopilot power switch next to the autopilot control head.
For two pilot professional crews every flight critical action is backed up by both
pilots; I.E. ATC issues new altitude clearance, the non-flying pilot sets
the new altitude in the altitude selector, flying pilot points to setting,
verbally confirms number, and only then switches the autopilot to the climb mode,
finally the non-flying pilot responds to ATC leaving xxxx for xxxx. Approaching
the assigned altitude flying pilot says something like "approaching xxxx"
non-flying pilot acknowledges, "one to go". Again, for our single pilot airplanes,
silly as it may sound, we should talk to ourselves as if we were two
pilots, enter a new altitude or minimums and then confirm the action either to
ATC or ourselves.
The key ingredient in this method of operation is a well thought sequence of procedures
applied the same way consistently to each phase of the flight. It works
equally well in a 747, F16, J3 cub, or RV10.
To many this all may seem like a too long statement of the obvious or to others
taking all the fun out of flying. I promise you, however, when perfected in
a cockpit you designed this approach to flying will give you a great sense of
accomplishment.
If all else fails, remember the old fighter pilot's last resort checklist, "push
all the shiny switches forward, don't touch any rusty ones."
With apologies to Mat and the list for excessive band width used,
Dick Sipp
RV4 N250DS
RV10 #40065 N110DV
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|