---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/13/05: 61 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:10 AM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (Tim Olson) 2. 05:02 AM - Re: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS (Howard Crawford) 3. 06:17 AM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (Doerr, Ray R [NTK]) 4. 06:38 AM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (John Jessen) 5. 07:59 AM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (aeroads@comcast.net) 6. 08:00 AM - Re: RV-10 Panel Rib modification (John W. Cox) 7. 09:16 AM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (Tim Olson) 8. 09:24 AM - Re: Oshkosh? (Jesse Saint) 9. 09:35 AM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (brian bollaert) 10. 09:37 AM - arlington flyin (brian bollaert) 11. 10:05 AM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (Tim Dawson-Townsend) 12. 10:12 AM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (Tim Olson) 13. 10:42 AM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (John W. Cox) 14. 10:55 AM - Re: RV-10 Panel Rib modification (James Ochs) 15. 11:04 AM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (Dan Checkoway) 16. 11:04 AM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (John Jessen) 17. 12:35 PM - Re: Oshkosh? (Randy DeBauw) 18. 12:36 PM - Re: arlington flyin (Randy DeBauw) 19. 01:16 PM - Re: RV-10 Panel Rib modification (Tim Olson) 20. 01:17 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (John W. Cox) 21. 01:22 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (John W. Cox) 22. 01:24 PM - Re: RV-10 Panel Rib modification (John W. Cox) 23. 01:36 PM - Re: RV-10 Panel Rib modification (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com) 24. 02:02 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (Condrey, Bob (US SSA)) 25. 02:19 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (Nikolaos Napoli) 26. 02:20 PM - Re: RV-10 Panel Rib modification (Tim Olson) 27. 02:39 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (John Jessen) 28. 02:41 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (John Jessen) 29. 02:53 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (Tim Olson) 30. 04:25 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (Rick) 31. 04:42 PM - Panel Rib Mod (Nikolaos Napoli) 32. 05:09 PM - Fw: RV-10 top photos (brian bollaert) 33. 05:17 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (brian bollaert) 34. 05:54 PM - Re: RV-10 Panel Rib modification (brian bollaert) 35. 05:55 PM - Re: Panel Rib Mod (John W. Cox) 36. 06:07 PM - Re: Panel Rib Mod (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of John W. Cox) 37. 06:16 PM - Re: RV-10 Panel Rib modification (linn walters) 38. 06:49 PM - Re: Panel Rib Mod (John W. Cox) 39. 07:06 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (Greg Young) 40. 07:25 PM - Re: Panel Rib Mod (Stein Bruch) 41. 07:28 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (Greg Young) 42. 07:33 PM - Re: Panel Rib Mod (Tim Dawson-Townsend) 43. 07:34 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Greg Young) 44. 07:41 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com) 45. 07:42 PM - Admitting a stupid mistake - rudder pedals (Tim Olson) 46. 07:52 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (Tim Olson) 47. 07:52 PM - Re: Panel Rib Mod (James Ochs) 48. 08:00 PM - Re: Panel Rib Mod (Nikolaos Napoli) 49. 08:11 PM - Re: Panel Rib Mod (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of James Ochs) 50. 08:19 PM - Re: Panel Rib Mod (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto) 51. 08:21 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (Greg Young) 52. 08:27 PM - Re: Panel Rib Mod (Tim Olson) 53. 08:29 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve (John W. Cox) 54. 08:33 PM - Re: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS (Robin Wessel) 55. 08:41 PM - Re: Admitting a stupid mistake - rudder pedals (brian bollaert) 56. 08:52 PM - Re: Re: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS (Tim Dawson-Townsend) 57. 09:00 PM - Re: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve () 58. 09:01 PM - Re: Panel Rib Mod (Tim Olson) 59. 09:18 PM - Re: Re: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS (Tim Olson) 60. 10:11 PM - Re: Admitting a stupid mistake - rudder pedals (DejaVu) 61. 11:36 PM - Re: Re: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS (Robin Wessel) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:06 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Any idea of how long it took to get? I'd like to have this all done this week. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage DO NOT ARCHIVE Greg Young wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Greg Young" > > You could also replace the fitting on the Andair valve, assuming it's > one of the side fittings. I got replacements from Andair for ~$12 each. > > Greg > > >>--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson >> >> >>Hi all, >> >>I got started on my Andair fuel valve install this weekend. >>Only got started and not finished because as it turns out, >>the valve that Wicks sells is NOT the one you'd want to do >>the -10. Van's sells one with 1/4" NPT, but Wicks has 3/8" >>MALE flare. The fix is to send back the Wicks valve and buy >>one from Van's, or spend over $55 for a 90 degree swivel >>Banjo fitting for the Andair from Wicks. Don't know which >>way it'll be yet though. >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:14 AM PST US From: Howard Crawford Subject: RE: RV10-List: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS --> RV10-List message posted by: Howard Crawford -----Original Message----- From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@MyRV10.com] Subject: Re: RV10-List: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Droopy, I'll address these as best I can. GPS: You have my understanding down precisely. I'm not an expert in the TSO legality area, but from what I've been told, the equipment will be legal to fly GPS and other approaches....just not WAAS. I will do my best to find out the true, 100% answer, with something leagalese to back it up with next week when I can talk to Direct To Avionics. I'll try to pull some real sold info out of them so we can bury this topic. Autopilots. Yes, you have the theory right. The TruTrak is a great stand-alone way to still keep yourself alive, and when you couple the Digiflight with the Chelton (or GRT), you can then fly the ILS, because the Nav signal goes into the GRT/Chelton and then the GRT/Chelton runs the autopilot down the approach. If you don't get a GRT or Chelton though, you're right, you'll want the Sorcerer... which is why I initially went that route. I know at least one other list member was talked OUT of the sorcerer by TruTrak in favor of the DigiFlight for just this reason, so I have no reason to doubt it. I don't know what to say bout the yaw damper...never used one. Don't know how nice it would be...or necessary. EIS: I also think Rob has a fantastic EIS. Everything about it is spectacular. The only issue (right now) is that it doesn't integrate into the Chelton if you have it. I don't think you'd lose any EIS functionality by having the AFS2500....you would be losing out on some additional Chelton functionality though....(or GRT if you went that way). The thing is, that 3rd screen, if you put it over on the right side, isn't JUST an EIS anymore at that point. It's also a separate HSI, or Attitude display, or Map, or weather screen, or any of those cool things, for your co-pilot to use. I often fly with my Father, and we trade flying sometimes. I know I'll likely not let him fly left seat in my plane....too hard to trust someone else... :) but, having the 3rd screen will allow him to have all the info he wants. My wife is also very interested in obtaining some proficiency in running the maps and stuff. With this in mind, I view that 3rd screen as being NOT an EIS for quite a bit of time. I want an attitude, and Map or HSI up most of the time on the left 2 screens. The right one, well, that will depend on the situation.....in many cases it might just be an EIS. I feel I need to apologise to the list for taking up so much bandwidth on this panel topic...but I think there's a LOT of info out there that is just not known. And, I think people assume these panels are EXTREME in cost...so they try to piece together lots of things they want. Some of the hardest info to come by is good, accurate info on how things integrate. I've been making this panel my life until I get every concept pinned down...and I just want to pass along the things I'm finding out. Hopefully, we can all learn about EVERYONE's system, not just the Chelton or GRT. I'm not at all a BMA fan anymore, despite their beautiful Sport screen, but, as we move forward, they will improve their integration too...so hopefully we can keep some good info on true capabilities, and keep it current. From what I've learned recently though, as I HAD to dig the info up so I could pin down my choices and actually put money into things, there are really 2 very nice routes to go. The GRT, and the Chelton. Both will expand your capabilities immensely, and let you have functions and features not possible in many other combos....and they enhance the TruTrak as mentioned above...all while saving money. The Chelton just adds a pile of higher quality and more features on to the GRT. It's a system for either budget. Very soon, I'll just sit down and start adding to my panel page. I'll list known functionalities, with references if possible. That way there will be a good reference out there without me taking up your bandwidth. Maybe this weekend I'll get some time, but I'll need to get some answers yet next week. Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Droopy Erickson wrote: > Tim, > > Couple of questions about your panel and the ongoing discussions. First > off, beautiful panel, similiar in lines to where I'm headed (a couple > years after you...). > > GPS: You mentioned earlier (I'm to lazy to cut and paste from the > previous messages) that you couple legally fly enroute and terminal > approaches with the Chelton system, just not WAAS approaches. To do > that, you have to meet the TSO standards for enroute and terminal GPS. > Looking through the Chelton literature, it looks like a TSOd GPS > receiver was only an option on the Pro system. Is this what you're > getting, or do you know something I don't? > > Autopilots: I love the Trutrack autopilots. I'm going with a Dynon as > my backup gauges vice the round dials (with an appropriate electrical > system to eliminate single point failures, etc). I feel the autopilot > gives me a third "backup" to at least get the plane top-side up. The > only reason I'm personnaly leaning towards the Sorcerer vice the > Digiflight is ILS capability. The Digiflight does not track ILS > approaches. My question, however, is whether you've been told the > Chelton will take the ILS signals, do it's thing to them, then drive the > Digiflight appropriately? (I guess the other reason for the Sorcerer > might be the Yaw damper. We'll have to ask Randy as things progress how > much, if any tail wag this thing has...) > > EIS: I really want Rob's AFS2500. Not only do I thing the engine > display rocks, but I also really like the ability to put checklist pages > into it. Could you elaborate a little on what Chelton functionality we > lose if we go with a Chelton 2 screen (the two on the left side of your > panel) and a 2500 for the engine stuff? > > Thanks for the great webpage and the wealth of great info you've collected!! > > John > #40208 Smelly fuel tanks ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:34 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve From: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" Tim, I mount the Andair fuel valave exactly like yours. I used the origal brack to mark the position and then made a plate that would rivet to the top of it once I cut the center out of the original piece which just leaves the angles. I them move it vertically to the point where it just meets the underside of the tunnel cover. I have the valve centered in the tunnel with the left point directly left and right pointing directly right. The problem I am now trying to solve is that the left inlet to the valve is still too close to the tunnel side that it is impossible to get the flare connection on a 90 degree fitting in the valve. It is about 1/8" - 1/4" too long to fit. The issue is the 90 degree fitting will not thread far enough into the valve to get better clearance. I am trying to find a shorter 90 fitting today that will improve this clearance issue. Also note that this fitting may have to be turned aft to be able to clear the rudder cables. Thank You Ray Doerr CDNI Principal Engineer Sprint PCS 16020 West 113th Street Lenexa, KS 66219 Mailstop KSLNXK0101 (913) 859-1414 (Office) (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) (913) 859-1234 (Fax) Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Hi all, I got started on my Andair fuel valve install this weekend. Only got started and not finished because as it turns out, the valve that Wicks sells is NOT the one you'd want to do the -10. Van's sells one with 1/4" NPT, but Wicks has 3/8" MALE flare. The fix is to send back the Wicks valve and buy one from Van's, or spend over $55 for a 90 degree swivel Banjo fitting for the Andair from Wicks. Don't know which way it'll be yet though. I did get started on the mounting for the Andair valve, using photos from Bob Condrey and Vic Syracuse. I tried to take some good preliminary ones until I get my new valve though, so feel free to read about it in the fuselage section here: http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/ Also, I did my interior painting today. My end result will be very good, but the spraying was not without issue. I made a big mistake early on in the cleaning process that I'm not happy with that caused me to have plenty of lint trapped in the paint. Luckily for me it was mainly on the floor panels where I'll put carpet anyway. I put some tips from lessons learned the hard way on that same link, but in the fuselage interior painting section. -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:13 AM PST US d="scan'208"; a="46444057:sNHT88803932" From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" Gentlemen: What is the reason to go with the Andair? To go to all this retrofitting difficulty? John Jessen (4lbs 15.9 oz of rivets to go) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK] Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" --> Tim, I mount the Andair fuel valave exactly like yours. I used the origal brack to mark the position and then made a plate that would rivet to the top of it once I cut the center out of the original piece which just leaves the angles. I them move it vertically to the point where it just meets the underside of the tunnel cover. I have the valve centered in the tunnel with the left point directly left and right pointing directly right. The problem I am now trying to solve is that the left inlet to the valve is still too close to the tunnel side that it is impossible to get the flare connection on a 90 degree fitting in the valve. It is about 1/8" - 1/4" too long to fit. The issue is the 90 degree fitting will not thread far enough into the valve to get better clearance. I am trying to find a shorter 90 fitting today that will improve this clearance issue. Also note that this fitting may have to be turned aft to be able to clear the rudder cables. Thank You Ray Doerr CDNI Principal Engineer Sprint PCS 16020 West 113th Street Lenexa, KS 66219 Mailstop KSLNXK0101 (913) 859-1414 (Office) (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) (913) 859-1234 (Fax) Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Hi all, I got started on my Andair fuel valve install this weekend. Only got started and not finished because as it turns out, the valve that Wicks sells is NOT the one you'd want to do the -10. Van's sells one with 1/4" NPT, but Wicks has 3/8" MALE flare. The fix is to send back the Wicks valve and buy one from Van's, or spend over $55 for a 90 degree swivel Banjo fitting for the Andair from Wicks. Don't know which way it'll be yet though. I did get started on the mounting for the Andair valve, using photos from Bob Condrey and Vic Syracuse. I tried to take some good preliminary ones until I get my new valve though, so feel free to read about it in the fuselage section here: http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/ Also, I did my interior painting today. My end result will be very good, but the spraying was not without issue. I made a big mistake early on in the cleaning process that I'm not happy with that caused me to have plenty of lint trapped in the paint. Luckily for me it was mainly on the floor panels where I'll put carpet anyway. I put some tips from lessons learned the hard way on that same link, but in the fuselage interior painting section. -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:09 AM PST US From: aeroads@comcast.net Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve There does not appear to be a delivery or availability problem w/ the fuel valves but I was prompted to look on the hangar shelf and found a couple of fuel valves in bags marked 492 013 probably a Cessna part 1/4 NPT ports no handles photo attached If anyone has a delivery problem I could send them one Murray Randall -------------- Original message -------------- > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" > > Gentlemen: What is the reason to go with the Andair? To go to all this > retrofitting difficulty? > > John Jessen > (4lbs 15.9 oz of rivets to go) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R > [NTK] > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:17 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" > --> > > Tim, I mount the Andair fuel valave exactly like yours. I used the > origal brack to mark the position and then made a plate that would rivet to > the top of it once I cut the center out of the original piece which just > leaves the angles. I them move it vertically to the point where it just > meets the underside of the tunnel cover. I have the valve centered in the > tunnel with the left point directly left and right pointing directly right. > The problem I am now trying to solve is that the left inlet to the valve is > still too close to the tunnel side that it is impossible to get the flare > connection on a 90 degree fitting in the valve. It is about 1/8" - 1/4" too > long to fit. The issue is the 90 degree fitting will not thread far enough > into the valve to get better clearance. I am trying to find a shorter 90 > fitting today that will improve this clearance issue. Also note that this > fitting may have to be turned aft to be able to clear the rudder cables. > > > > > Thank You > Ray Doerr > CDNI Principal Engineer > Sprint PCS > 16020 West 113th Street > Lenexa, KS 66219 > Mailstop KSLNXK0101 > (913) 859-1414 (Office) > (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) > (913) 859-1234 (Fax) > Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:01 AM > To: RV10 > Subject: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > > Hi all, > > I got started on my Andair fuel valve install this weekend. Only got > started and not finished because as it turns out, the valve that Wicks > sells is NOT the one you'd want to do the -10. Van's sells one with > 1/4" NPT, but Wicks has 3/8" MALE flare. The fix is to send back the > Wicks valve and buy one from Van's, or spend over $55 for a 90 degree > swivel Banjo fitting for the Andair from Wicks. Don't know which way > it'll be yet though. > > I did get started on the mounting for the Andair valve, using photos > from Bob Condrey and Vic Syracuse. I tried to take some good > preliminary ones until I get my new valve though, so feel free to > read about it in the fuselage section here: > > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/ > > Also, I did my interior painting today. My end result will be very > good, but the spraying was not without issue. I made a big mistake > early on in the cleaning process that I'm not happy with that caused > me to have plenty of lint trapped in the paint. Luckily for me it > was mainly on the floor panels where I'll put carpet anyway. I put some > tips from lessons learned the hard way on that same link, but in the > fuselage interior painting section. > > > -- > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There does not appear to be a delivery or availabilityproblemw/ the fuel valves but I was prompted to look on the hangar shelf and found a couple of fuel valvesin bags marked 492 013 probably a Cessna part1/4 NPTports no handlesphoto attachedIf anyone has a delivery problem I could send them one Murray Randall -------------- Original message -------------- -- RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" Gentlemen: What is the reason to go with the Andair? To go to all this retrofitting difficulty? John Jessen (4lbs 15.9 oz of rivets to go) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK] Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:17 AM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve -- RV10-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" -- Tim, I mount the Andair fuel valave exactly like yours. I used the origal brack to mark t he position and then made a plate that would rivet to the top of it once I cut the center out of the original piece which just leaves the angles. I them move it vertically to the point where it just meets the underside of the tunnel cover. I have the valve centered in the tunnel with the left point directly left and right pointing directly right. The problem I am now trying to solve is that the left inlet to the valve is still too close to the tunnel side that it is impossible to get the flare connection on a 90 degree fitting in the valve. It is about 1/8" - 1/4" too long to fit. The issue is the 90 degree fitting will not thread far enough into the valve to get better clearance. I am trying to find a shorter 90 fitting today that will improve this clearance issue. Also note that this fitting may have to be turned aft to be able to clear the rudder cables. Thank You Ray Doerr CDNI Principal Engineer Sprint PCS 16020 West 113th Street Lenexa, KS 66219 Mailstop KSLNXK0101 (913) 859-1414 (Office) (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) (913) 859-1234 (Fax) Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:01 AM To: RV10 Subject: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve -- RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Hi all, I got started on my Andair fuel valve install this weekend. Only got started and not finished because as it turns out, the valve that Wicks sells is NOT the one you'd want to do the -10. Van's sells one with 1/4" NPT, but Wicks has 3/8" MALE flare. The fix is to send back the Wicks valve and buy one from Van's, or spend over $55 for a 90 degree swivel Banjo fitting for the Andair from Wicks. Don't know which way it'll be yet though. I did get started on the mounting for the Andair valve, using photos from Bob Condrey and Vic Syracuse. I tried to take some good preliminary ones until I get my new valve though, so feel free to read about it in the fuselage section here: http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/ Also, I did my interior painting today. My end result will be very good, but the spraying was not without issue. I made a big mistake early on in the cleaning process that I'm not happy with that caused me to have plenty of lint trapped in the paint. Luckily for me it was mainly on the floor panels where I'll put carpet anywa ================================== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:52 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification From: "John W. Cox" --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Nuts spec'ed too thick by plan, was one of the major issues found by Randy's DAR in multiple locations. The change out was easy, but an EAA Tech visit along the journey is a great recommendation prior to the signoff. John - KUAO -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Forgot to add a couple notes to my last email: #1. I also did the modification to my left and right panel ribs, in preparation for my Chelton system. See here for photos: http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050610 And, Saturday a.m. I got a great visit from Gary Specketer and his wife. Gary's an RV-10 builder and EAA Technical counselor who's built a few other planes in the past. It was fantastic to have someone like him come and look ove rmy work. I might be wrong, but I think the only actual builder who's ever seen my plane is a buddy who's building a -4, so it was great to get his stamp of approval on what I've done so far. I didn't realize that the FAA looks positively at the fact that you've had 3 visits from EAA Tech. counselors. In the short time he was over, I got good advice on a few issues, and he found a couple of rivets that Van's spec'd too short, and nuts that were spec'd too thick, not allowing enough threads to show. If you haven't looked into an EAA Technical counselor visit, I'd encourage a new builder to probably meet one too look at your Vertical Stab just to ease your mind, and then possibly inspect at the end of your empennage, and end of the wings. Since this was my first visit out of at least 3 that I should try for, I'll probably do one as a pre-signoff inspection, and maybe one a the time I mate up my wings. It's a great and valuable service these guys are performing. -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:13 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Good question. Here's my answer: 1) The standard valve is very ugly 2) The andair valve has that engraved plate with left/right labeling whereas you have to stick or paint on labels with the other. 3) The andair valve has a more positive detent feel for when you get to the left or right position. 4) The andair valve has an OFF position that you can't get to by just twisting the valve...you couldn't do it by accident. I'll be flying with kids on 95% of my flights, and they like to climb around and trade seats. 5) It's not really a retrofit difficulty...you have to build the whole fuel line system anyway. The convolution is in the STANDARD valve...you have to cross the fuel lines so the Left line feeds the RIGH side of the valve, and vice versa. This is an incredibly screwed up situation, which has already led to one other builder mounting hsi standard valve backwards just to make the convoluted routing simpler. The Andair valve is a much more straightforward and logical plumbing job. 6) The plane is going to be > $150K....point #1 is just too much to bear when the andair looks so nice. I'm not building a flying lawn tractor. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage John Jessen wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" > > Gentlemen: What is the reason to go with the Andair? To go to all this > retrofitting difficulty? > > John Jessen > (4lbs 15.9 oz of rivets to go) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R > [NTK] > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:17 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" > --> > > Tim, I mount the Andair fuel valave exactly like yours. I used the > origal brack to mark the position and then made a plate that would rivet to > the top of it once I cut the center out of the original piece which just > leaves the angles. I them move it vertically to the point where it just > meets the underside of the tunnel cover. I have the valve centered in the > tunnel with the left point directly left and right pointing directly right. > The problem I am now trying to solve is that the left inlet to the valve is > still too close to the tunnel side that it is impossible to get the flare > connection on a 90 degree fitting in the valve. It is about 1/8" - 1/4" too > long to fit. The issue is the 90 degree fitting will not thread far enough > into the valve to get better clearance. I am trying to find a shorter 90 > fitting today that will improve this clearance issue. Also note that this > fitting may have to be turned aft to be able to clear the rudder cables. > > > > > Thank You > Ray Doerr > CDNI Principal Engineer > Sprint PCS > 16020 West 113th Street > Lenexa, KS 66219 > Mailstop KSLNXK0101 > (913) 859-1414 (Office) > (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) > (913) 859-1234 (Fax) > Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:01 AM > To: RV10 > Subject: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > > Hi all, > > I got started on my Andair fuel valve install this weekend. Only got > started and not finished because as it turns out, the valve that Wicks > sells is NOT the one you'd want to do the -10. Van's sells one with > 1/4" NPT, but Wicks has 3/8" MALE flare. The fix is to send back the > Wicks valve and buy one from Van's, or spend over $55 for a 90 degree > swivel Banjo fitting for the Andair from Wicks. Don't know which way > it'll be yet though. > > I did get started on the mounting for the Andair valve, using photos > from Bob Condrey and Vic Syracuse. I tried to take some good > preliminary ones until I get my new valve though, so feel free to > read about it in the fuselage section here: > > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/ > > Also, I did my interior painting today. My end result will be very > good, but the spraying was not without issue. I made a big mistake > early on in the cleaning process that I'm not happy with that caused > me to have plenty of lint trapped in the paint. Luckily for me it > was mainly on the floor panels where I'll put carpet anyway. I put some > tips from lessons learned the hard way on that same link, but in the > fuselage interior painting section. > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:00 AM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh? Sean, It feels great to be able to sit inside. We have spent our share of time looking at parts on the shelf, though. We are very excited about flying it. We had an auto body shop paint it for us. We trailered it over there and painted it in their shop. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sean Blair Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh? Jesse, The plane looks great!!! What's it like to be able to sit inside instead of looking at parts on the shelf? Bet you can't wait for the day you fly. Did you paint it yourself? Very shiny.looks good. Sean B. N967SB, reserved Do not archive _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint Subject: RV10-List: Oshkosh? Here are a few pictures. Now it's time for exhaust and wiring. N256H #40241 Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:06 AM PST US From: "brian bollaert" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: "brian bollaert" Hey Tim : The -10 is nothing more than John Deer with wings !! , by the way the hing pin material Per Vans comes in the finishing Kit . Wondering if i should switch out the fuel selecter valve ? and go with the andair hhhmm . Brian Bollaert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > Good question. Here's my answer: > > 1) The standard valve is very ugly > 2) The andair valve has that engraved plate with left/right labeling > whereas you have to stick or paint on labels with the other. > 3) The andair valve has a more positive detent feel for when you get > to the left or right position. > 4) The andair valve has an OFF position that you can't get to by > just twisting the valve...you couldn't do it by accident. > I'll be flying with kids on 95% of my flights, and they > like to climb around and trade seats. > 5) It's not really a retrofit difficulty...you have to build the > whole fuel line system anyway. The convolution is in the > STANDARD valve...you have to cross the fuel lines so the > Left line feeds the RIGH side of the valve, and vice versa. > This is an incredibly screwed up situation, which has already > led to one other builder mounting hsi standard valve backwards > just to make the convoluted routing simpler. The Andair valve > is a much more straightforward and logical plumbing job. > 6) The plane is going to be > $150K....point #1 is just too much > to bear when the andair looks so nice. I'm not building a > flying lawn tractor. > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage > > > John Jessen wrote: > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" > > > > Gentlemen: What is the reason to go with the Andair? To go to all this > > retrofitting difficulty? > > > > John Jessen > > (4lbs 15.9 oz of rivets to go) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R > > [NTK] > > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:17 AM > > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > > > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" > > --> > > > > Tim, I mount the Andair fuel valave exactly like yours. I used the > > origal brack to mark the position and then made a plate that would rivet to > > the top of it once I cut the center out of the original piece which just > > leaves the angles. I them move it vertically to the point where it just > > meets the underside of the tunnel cover. I have the valve centered in the > > tunnel with the left point directly left and right pointing directly right. > > The problem I am now trying to solve is that the left inlet to the valve is > > still too close to the tunnel side that it is impossible to get the flare > > connection on a 90 degree fitting in the valve. It is about 1/8" - 1/4" too > > long to fit. The issue is the 90 degree fitting will not thread far enough > > into the valve to get better clearance. I am trying to find a shorter 90 > > fitting today that will improve this clearance issue. Also note that this > > fitting may have to be turned aft to be able to clear the rudder cables. > > > > > > > > > > Thank You > > Ray Doerr > > CDNI Principal Engineer > > Sprint PCS > > 16020 West 113th Street > > Lenexa, KS 66219 > > Mailstop KSLNXK0101 > > (913) 859-1414 (Office) > > (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) > > (913) 859-1234 (Fax) > > Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:01 AM > > To: RV10 > > Subject: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > > > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > I got started on my Andair fuel valve install this weekend. Only got > > started and not finished because as it turns out, the valve that Wicks > > sells is NOT the one you'd want to do the -10. Van's sells one with > > 1/4" NPT, but Wicks has 3/8" MALE flare. The fix is to send back the > > Wicks valve and buy one from Van's, or spend over $55 for a 90 degree > > swivel Banjo fitting for the Andair from Wicks. Don't know which way > > it'll be yet though. > > > > I did get started on the mounting for the Andair valve, using photos > > from Bob Condrey and Vic Syracuse. I tried to take some good > > preliminary ones until I get my new valve though, so feel free to > > read about it in the fuselage section here: > > > > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/ > > > > Also, I did my interior painting today. My end result will be very > > good, but the spraying was not without issue. I made a big mistake > > early on in the cleaning process that I'm not happy with that caused > > me to have plenty of lint trapped in the paint. Luckily for me it > > was mainly on the floor panels where I'll put carpet anyway. I put some > > tips from lessons learned the hard way on that same link, but in the > > fuselage interior painting section. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:31 AM PST US From: "brian bollaert" Subject: RV10-List: arlington flyin Question to the list members, is anyone going to the Arlington Washington Flyin july 6-10 Vans will have there -10 s up there . Brian B ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:16 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" I agree the kit valve leaves a little to be desired, at least the little handle they've got on it. We're using the regular valve, but may look for a nicer handle to mount on it down the line, or maybe fab one ourselves . . . TDT 40025 May finally get a Finish Kit this week! -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Good question. Here's my answer: 1) The standard valve is very ugly 2) The andair valve has that engraved plate with left/right labeling whereas you have to stick or paint on labels with the other. 3) The andair valve has a more positive detent feel for when you get to the left or right position. 4) The andair valve has an OFF position that you can't get to by just twisting the valve...you couldn't do it by accident. I'll be flying with kids on 95% of my flights, and they like to climb around and trade seats. 5) It's not really a retrofit difficulty...you have to build the whole fuel line system anyway. The convolution is in the STANDARD valve...you have to cross the fuel lines so the Left line feeds the RIGH side of the valve, and vice versa. This is an incredibly screwed up situation, which has already led to one other builder mounting hsi standard valve backwards just to make the convoluted routing simpler. The Andair valve is a much more straightforward and logical plumbing job. 6) The plane is going to be > $150K....point #1 is just too much to bear when the andair looks so nice. I'm not building a flying lawn tractor. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage John Jessen wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" > > Gentlemen: What is the reason to go with the Andair? To go to all this > retrofitting difficulty? > > John Jessen > (4lbs 15.9 oz of rivets to go) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R > [NTK] > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:17 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" > --> > > Tim, I mount the Andair fuel valave exactly like yours. I used the > origal brack to mark the position and then made a plate that would rivet to > the top of it once I cut the center out of the original piece which just > leaves the angles. I them move it vertically to the point where it just > meets the underside of the tunnel cover. I have the valve centered in the > tunnel with the left point directly left and right pointing directly right. > The problem I am now trying to solve is that the left inlet to the valve is > still too close to the tunnel side that it is impossible to get the flare > connection on a 90 degree fitting in the valve. It is about 1/8" - 1/4" too > long to fit. The issue is the 90 degree fitting will not thread far enough > into the valve to get better clearance. I am trying to find a shorter 90 > fitting today that will improve this clearance issue. Also note that this > fitting may have to be turned aft to be able to clear the rudder cables. > > > > > Thank You > Ray Doerr > CDNI Principal Engineer > Sprint PCS > 16020 West 113th Street > Lenexa, KS 66219 > Mailstop KSLNXK0101 > (913) 859-1414 (Office) > (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) > (913) 859-1234 (Fax) > Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:01 AM > To: RV10 > Subject: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > > Hi all, > > I got started on my Andair fuel valve install this weekend. Only got > started and not finished because as it turns out, the valve that Wicks > sells is NOT the one you'd want to do the -10. Van's sells one with > 1/4" NPT, but Wicks has 3/8" MALE flare. The fix is to send back the > Wicks valve and buy one from Van's, or spend over $55 for a 90 degree > swivel Banjo fitting for the Andair from Wicks. Don't know which way > it'll be yet though. > > I did get started on the mounting for the Andair valve, using photos > from Bob Condrey and Vic Syracuse. I tried to take some good > preliminary ones until I get my new valve though, so feel free to > read about it in the fuselage section here: > > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/ > > Also, I did my interior painting today. My end result will be very > good, but the spraying was not without issue. I made a big mistake > early on in the cleaning process that I'm not happy with that caused > me to have plenty of lint trapped in the paint. Luckily for me it > was mainly on the floor panels where I'll put carpet anyway. I put some > tips from lessons learned the hard way on that same link, but in the > fuselage interior painting section. > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:26 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Well Brian, it ain't too late to switch. I don't know how simple it would be once rudder stuff is all run through, but it may well be worth the time to make it work, given how that other valve all came out. I know I'm not comfortable with having the pointer either point backwards, or using the lever handle as the pointer and grounding the pointer tip off the valve. I really think it would be a good time to re-look at that whole thing. I think that even if you had to put an elbow union where it goes from tunnel to seat area to make it work out, it would still be a good opportunity to improve things. Hmmmm, maybe I should re-work my paint schemes for either John Deere Green, Ford Tractor Blue, or Catapiller Yellow. ;) Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage DO NOT ARCHIVE brian bollaert wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "brian bollaert" > > Hey Tim : > > The -10 is nothing more than John Deer with wings !! , by the way the hing > pin material Per Vans comes in the finishing Kit . Wondering if i should > switch out the fuel selecter valve ? and go with the andair hhhmm . > > Brian Bollaert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim Olson" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 9:15 AM > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > > > >>--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson >> >>Good question. Here's my answer: >> >>1) The standard valve is very ugly >>2) The andair valve has that engraved plate with left/right labeling >>whereas you have to stick or paint on labels with the other. >>3) The andair valve has a more positive detent feel for when you get >>to the left or right position. >>4) The andair valve has an OFF position that you can't get to by >>just twisting the valve...you couldn't do it by accident. >>I'll be flying with kids on 95% of my flights, and they >>like to climb around and trade seats. >>5) It's not really a retrofit difficulty...you have to build the >>whole fuel line system anyway. The convolution is in the >>STANDARD valve...you have to cross the fuel lines so the >>Left line feeds the RIGH side of the valve, and vice versa. >>This is an incredibly screwed up situation, which has already >>led to one other builder mounting hsi standard valve backwards >>just to make the convoluted routing simpler. The Andair valve >>is a much more straightforward and logical plumbing job. >>6) The plane is going to be > $150K....point #1 is just too much >>to bear when the andair looks so nice. I'm not building a >>flying lawn tractor. >> >>Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 >>Current project: Fuselage >> >> >> >>John Jessen wrote: >> >>>--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" >>> >>>Gentlemen: What is the reason to go with the Andair? To go to all this >>>retrofitting difficulty? >>> >>>John Jessen >>> (4lbs 15.9 oz of rivets to go) >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R >>>[NTK] >>>Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:17 AM >>>To: rv10-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve >>> >>>--> RV10-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" >>>--> >>> >>>Tim, I mount the Andair fuel valave exactly like yours. I used the >>>origal brack to mark the position and then made a plate that would rivet > > to > >>>the top of it once I cut the center out of the original piece which just >>>leaves the angles. I them move it vertically to the point where it just >>>meets the underside of the tunnel cover. I have the valve centered in > > the > >>>tunnel with the left point directly left and right pointing directly > > right. > >>>The problem I am now trying to solve is that the left inlet to the valve > > is > >>>still too close to the tunnel side that it is impossible to get the > > flare > >>>connection on a 90 degree fitting in the valve. It is about 1/8" - 1/4" > > too > >>>long to fit. The issue is the 90 degree fitting will not thread far > > enough > >>>into the valve to get better clearance. I am trying to find a shorter > > 90 > >>>fitting today that will improve this clearance issue. Also note that > > this > >>>fitting may have to be turned aft to be able to clear the rudder cables. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Thank You >>>Ray Doerr >>>CDNI Principal Engineer >>>Sprint PCS >>>16020 West 113th Street >>>Lenexa, KS 66219 >>>Mailstop KSLNXK0101 >>>(913) 859-1414 (Office) >>>(913) 226-0106 (Pcs) >>>(913) 859-1234 (Fax) >>>Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson >>>Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:01 AM >>>To: RV10 >>>Subject: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve >>> >>>--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson >>> >>> >>>Hi all, >>> >>>I got started on my Andair fuel valve install this weekend. Only got >>>started and not finished because as it turns out, the valve that Wicks >>>sells is NOT the one you'd want to do the -10. Van's sells one with >>>1/4" NPT, but Wicks has 3/8" MALE flare. The fix is to send back the >>>Wicks valve and buy one from Van's, or spend over $55 for a 90 degree >>>swivel Banjo fitting for the Andair from Wicks. Don't know which way >>>it'll be yet though. >>> >>>I did get started on the mounting for the Andair valve, using photos >>>from Bob Condrey and Vic Syracuse. I tried to take some good >>>preliminary ones until I get my new valve though, so feel free to >>>read about it in the fuselage section here: >>> >>>http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/ >>> >>>Also, I did my interior painting today. My end result will be very >>>good, but the spraying was not without issue. I made a big mistake >>>early on in the cleaning process that I'm not happy with that caused >>>me to have plenty of lint trapped in the paint. Luckily for me it >>>was mainly on the floor panels where I'll put carpet anyway. I put some >>>tips from lessons learned the hard way on that same link, but in the >>>fuselage interior painting section. >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:30 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve From: "John W. Cox" --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Brian, you crack me up on a Monday morning. Just think if N220RV had no white paint. John Deere Green top and bottom. In reality there is a lot of Americana attitude that goes with the John Deere design. I can just hear Toby Keith in the background now shouting from the door of his Ford Pickup. Even EAA has embraced Green machines. Unfortunately, just as there is a RV-grin, there is a balancing RV-frown every time a builder suggests modification of plans, alterations, improvements or enhancement ideas, more horsepower or changes to their RV Experimental built aeroplane. Yet my enthusiasm jumps each time I watch video of Dan Checkoway's flying after he committed Deere blasphemy by exceeding the 180 hp rule and slipped in that heart thumping 200 hp Powerplant into his pristine RV-7. I still get a thrill looking at the HRII or HRIII aesthetically. Lord help anyone suggesting providing Builder Assist to the congregation during a chant session. The RV-10 is a great plan, but this is the 21 century and VFR only with steam gages are indeed slipping the way of classic and antique aeroplanes of the last century as valued possessions. Tim's panel is a refreshing perspective of "Being All Your RV-10 Can Be". His willingness to post progress, ideas, potholes along the road and resources used are valued. Three more international certified manufacturers have airframes under tarp at Garmin-KSLE getting certification for G1000 glass cockpits. I can smell the roses now - oh that's right... the US Navy fleet just left Portland from the Rose Festival Weekend. Time to get back to work, but thanks for the morning smile. DO NOT ARCHIVE John - KUAO -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of brian bollaert Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: "brian bollaert" Hey Tim : The -10 is nothing more than John Deer with wings !! , by the way the hing pin material Per Vans comes in the finishing Kit . Wondering if i should switch out the fuel selecter valve ? and go with the andair hhhmm . Brian Bollaert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > Good question. Here's my answer: > > 1) The standard valve is very ugly > 2) The andair valve has that engraved plate with left/right labeling > whereas you have to stick or paint on labels with the other. > 3) The andair valve has a more positive detent feel for when you get > to the left or right position. > 4) The andair valve has an OFF position that you can't get to by > just twisting the valve...you couldn't do it by accident. > I'll be flying with kids on 95% of my flights, and they > like to climb around and trade seats. > 5) It's not really a retrofit difficulty...you have to build the > whole fuel line system anyway. The convolution is in the > STANDARD valve...you have to cross the fuel lines so the > Left line feeds the RIGH side of the valve, and vice versa. > This is an incredibly screwed up situation, which has already > led to one other builder mounting hsi standard valve backwards > just to make the convoluted routing simpler. The Andair valve > is a much more straightforward and logical plumbing job. > 6) The plane is going to be > $150K....point #1 is just too much > to bear when the andair looks so nice. I'm not building a > flying lawn tractor. > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:44 AM PST US From: James Ochs Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs Hrm. Is there a list of the locations where this is true? Or do we need to check each nut against the accepted standards? Where does one get a "thinner" nut? I always thought the nuts were pretty standard... do we just need to use longer bolts? Thanks, James John W. Cox wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" > >Nuts spec'ed too thick by plan, was one of the major issues found by >Randy's DAR in multiple locations. The change out was easy, but an EAA >Tech visit along the journey is a great recommendation prior to the >signoff. > >John - KUAO > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson >Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 10:19 PM >To: RV10 >Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > >Forgot to add a couple notes to my last email: > >#1. I also did the modification to my left and right panel ribs, in >preparation for my Chelton system. See here for photos: > >http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050610 > > >And, Saturday a.m. I got a great visit from Gary Specketer and his wife. > > Gary's an RV-10 builder and EAA Technical counselor who's built a few >other planes in the past. It was fantastic to have someone like him >come and look ove rmy work. I might be wrong, but I think the only >actual builder who's ever seen my plane is a buddy who's building >a -4, so it was great to get his stamp of approval on what I've done >so far. I didn't realize that the FAA looks positively at the fact >that you've had 3 visits from EAA Tech. counselors. In the short time >he was over, I got good advice on a few issues, and he found a couple >of rivets that Van's spec'd too short, and nuts that were spec'd too >thick, not allowing enough threads to show. If you haven't looked >into an EAA Technical counselor visit, I'd encourage a new builder to >probably meet one too look at your Vertical Stab just to ease >your mind, and then possibly inspect at the end of your empennage, >and end of the wings. Since this was my first visit out of at >least 3 that I should try for, I'll probably do one as a pre-signoff >inspection, and maybe one a the time I mate up my wings. It's a >great and valuable service these guys are performing. > > > > -- There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. Douglas Adams, 'The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy' ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:21 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > RV Experimental built aeroplane. Yet my enthusiasm jumps each time I > watch video of Dan Checkoway's flying after he committed Deere blasphemy > by exceeding the 180 hp rule and slipped in that heart thumping 200 hp Dag bernit...lately every time I get that camera mount set up, ready to go record some new wacky exploits, some RV builder walks up with his head hung a little low. I'm on my way out with a gaggle of fun-lovers and this poor guy has to deburr for another 4 hours. Wanna go? It only takes a minute to get that camera mount out, and that's how it usually goes. I need to get some more video going one of these days, though...wish the camera had been rolling yesterday!!! (lips sealed) Keep cranking, guys. Do it your way. You're gonna love it!!! do not archive )_( Dan "my -10 HS is so long it has two zip codes" RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:29 AM PST US d="scan'208"; a="49804653:sNHT32569516" From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" They sure did look fine in their dress whites! do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Brian, you crack me up on a Monday morning. Just think if N220RV had no white paint. John Deere Green top and bottom. In reality there is a lot of Americana attitude that goes with the John Deere design. I can just hear Toby Keith in the background now shouting from the door of his Ford Pickup. Even EAA has embraced Green machines. Unfortunately, just as there is a RV-grin, there is a balancing RV-frown every time a builder suggests modification of plans, alterations, improvements or enhancement ideas, more horsepower or changes to their RV Experimental built aeroplane. Yet my enthusiasm jumps each time I watch video of Dan Checkoway's flying after he committed Deere blasphemy by exceeding the 180 hp rule and slipped in that heart thumping 200 hp Powerplant into his pristine RV-7. I still get a thrill looking at the HRII or HRIII aesthetically. Lord help anyone suggesting providing Builder Assist to the congregation during a chant session. The RV-10 is a great plan, but this is the 21 century and VFR only with steam gages are indeed slipping the way of classic and antique aeroplanes of the last century as valued possessions. Tim's panel is a refreshing perspective of "Being All Your RV-10 Can Be". His willingness to post progress, ideas, potholes along the road and resources used are valued. Three more international certified manufacturers have airframes under tarp at Garmin-KSLE getting certification for G1000 glass cockpits. I can smell the roses now - oh that's right... the US Navy fleet just left Portland from the Rose Festival Weekend. Time to get back to work, but thanks for the morning smile. DO NOT ARCHIVE John - KUAO -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of brian bollaert Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: "brian bollaert" Hey Tim : The -10 is nothing more than John Deer with wings !! , by the way the hing pin material Per Vans comes in the finishing Kit . Wondering if i should switch out the fuel selecter valve ? and go with the andair hhhmm . Brian Bollaert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > Good question. Here's my answer: > > 1) The standard valve is very ugly > 2) The andair valve has that engraved plate with left/right labeling > whereas you have to stick or paint on labels with the other. > 3) The andair valve has a more positive detent feel for when you get > to the left or right position. > 4) The andair valve has an OFF position that you can't get to by > just twisting the valve...you couldn't do it by accident. > I'll be flying with kids on 95% of my flights, and they > like to climb around and trade seats. > 5) It's not really a retrofit difficulty...you have to build the > whole fuel line system anyway. The convolution is in the > STANDARD valve...you have to cross the fuel lines so the > Left line feeds the RIGH side of the valve, and vice versa. > This is an incredibly screwed up situation, which has already > led to one other builder mounting hsi standard valve backwards > just to make the convoluted routing simpler. The Andair valve > is a much more straightforward and logical plumbing job. > 6) The plane is going to be > $150K....point #1 is just too much > to bear when the andair looks so nice. I'm not building a > flying lawn tractor. > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:35:08 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh? From: "Randy DeBauw" Very nice Jesse! I like your color choice. Randy ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh? Sean, It feels great to be able to sit inside. We have spent our share of time looking at parts on the shelf, though. We are very excited about flying it. We had an auto body shop paint it for us. We trailered it over there and painted it in their shop. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sean Blair Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh? Jesse, The plane looks great!!! What's it like to be able to sit inside instead of looking at parts on the shelf? Bet you can't wait for the day you fly. Did you paint it yourself? Very shiny...looks good. Sean B. N967SB, reserved Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint Subject: RV10-List: Oshkosh? Here are a few pictures. Now it's time for exhaust and wiring. N256H #40241 Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:03 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: arlington flyin From: "Randy DeBauw" As it turns out, I won't make it to Arlington. I will be out of town until Sunday Aft. Randy ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of brian bollaert Subject: RV10-List: arlington flyin Question to the list members, is anyone going to the Arlington Washington Flyin july 6-10 Vans will have there -10 s up there . Brian B ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:16:18 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I believe on all nuts you should see something like 2 or 3 threads showing of the bolt that protrude completely through the nut...in all locations. Gary said that yes, nyloc nuts are available in a thinner design. I haven't looked for them yet though. You also could in some cases go to a "-L" washer (light=thin) and get back some of your threads. The problem is, the nuts in question on mine were part of the threads that are on the fitting that makes up the end of the aileron lever mechanism at the wing root. So, it isn't as simple as adding a longer bolt...you'd have to have a new custom fitting made. So, a thinner nut it is. Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 James Ochs wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs > > Hrm. Is there a list of the locations where this is true? Or do we need > to check each nut against the accepted standards? > > Where does one get a "thinner" nut? I always thought the nuts were > pretty standard... do we just need to use longer bolts? > > Thanks, > James > > John W. Cox wrote: > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" >> >> Nuts spec'ed too thick by plan, was one of the major issues found by >> Randy's DAR in multiple locations. The change out was easy, but an EAA >> Tech visit along the journey is a great recommendation prior to the >> signoff. >> >> John - KUAO >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson >> Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 10:19 PM >> To: RV10 >> Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification >> >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson >> >> Forgot to add a couple notes to my last email: >> >> #1. I also did the modification to my left and right panel ribs, in >> preparation for my Chelton system. See here for photos: >> >> http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050610 >> >> >> And, Saturday a.m. I got a great visit from Gary Specketer and his wife. >> >> Gary's an RV-10 builder and EAA Technical counselor who's built a few >> other planes in the past. It was fantastic to have someone like him >> come and look ove rmy work. I might be wrong, but I think the only >> actual builder who's ever seen my plane is a buddy who's building >> a -4, so it was great to get his stamp of approval on what I've done >> so far. I didn't realize that the FAA looks positively at the fact >> that you've had 3 visits from EAA Tech. counselors. In the short time >> he was over, I got good advice on a few issues, and he found a couple >> of rivets that Van's spec'd too short, and nuts that were spec'd too >> thick, not allowing enough threads to show. If you haven't looked >> into an EAA Technical counselor visit, I'd encourage a new builder to >> probably meet one too look at your Vertical Stab just to ease >> your mind, and then possibly inspect at the end of your empennage, >> and end of the wings. Since this was my first visit out of at >> least 3 that I should try for, I'll probably do one as a pre-signoff >> inspection, and maybe one a the time I mate up my wings. It's a >> great and valuable service these guys are performing. >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:42 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve From: "John W. Cox" --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" "Do it your way - 2005". And you haven't been banished to an isolated colony in the hinterlands? This must be a strange Monday. Guess I can put away that fifty-five gallon pail (drum) of Green Water Tower Paint. John - KUAO -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > RV Experimental built aeroplane. Yet my enthusiasm jumps each time I > watch video of Dan Checkoway's flying after he committed Deere blasphemy > by exceeding the 180 hp rule and slipped in that heart thumping 200 hp Dag bernit...lately every time I get that camera mount set up, ready to go record some new wacky exploits, some RV builder walks up with his head hung a little low. I'm on my way out with a gaggle of fun-lovers and this poor guy has to deburr for another 4 hours. Wanna go? It only takes a minute to get that camera mount out, and that's how it usually goes. I need to get some more video going one of these days, though...wish the camera had been rolling yesterday!!! (lips sealed) Keep cranking, guys. Do it your way. You're gonna love it!!! do not archive )_( Dan "my -10 HS is so long it has two zip codes" RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:16 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve From: "John W. Cox" --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" That's what my 25 year old daughter said after her visit with four girl friends to Camp Pendleton on Memorial Day and then back in time for Rose Festival. But she knows all the right patriotic verses, and she loves flying in a four passenger 21st century aeroplane. Some wonder why my hair went from Brown to Shock White in such a short period. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" They sure did look fine in their dress whites! do not archive. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:35 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification From: "John W. Cox" --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Longer bolts are best. Randy was going to post the multiple locations where nuts were replaced to allow more "Thread Show". Both Randy and I had kid's graduate from University of Oregon this Saturday so he is probably still in shock over the reality. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs Hrm. Is there a list of the locations where this is true? Or do we need to check each nut against the accepted standards? Where does one get a "thinner" nut? I always thought the nuts were pretty standard... do we just need to use longer bolts? Thanks, James [John Cox] DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:14 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification --> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" You can't put a longer bolt in the location because It isn't a bolt at all. It is the torque tube end that you drill and pop rivet into the steel tube. The other end has a threaded stud machined on it. You may not have to use a thinner nut or a high temp self locking nut like I did depending on what washer combo you end up with to get the spacing correct. Randy -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Longer bolts are best. Randy was going to post the multiple locations where nuts were replaced to allow more "Thread Show". Both Randy and I had kid's graduate from University of Oregon this Saturday so he is probably still in shock over the reality. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs Hrm. Is there a list of the locations where this is true? Or do we need to check each nut against the accepted standards? Where does one get a "thinner" nut? I always thought the nuts were pretty standard... do we just need to use longer bolts? Thanks, James [John Cox] DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:34 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" In my mind #3&4 below are the primary reasons to switch valves. The Andair valve has positive detents only at the 2 fuel tank locations. To switch the valve you have to lift a button in the middle of the selector and twist to the off position where it locks. One other factor for folks that worry stuff is that the valve mechanism is "make before brake". This means that there isn't a position between the two tank selections where there is no fuel flowing. You can absolutely get by with the one in the kit, and most RV builders have. You can also get by with only a simple set of steam gauges and a VFR only GPS/COM in the panel. Switching to the Andair valve WILL cost you some money and time over using the kit supplied valve. However, when you're finished it won't look like you've adapted a steam valve from the Queen Mary for use as a fuel selector :) Bob #40105 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Good question. Here's my answer: 1) The standard valve is very ugly 2) The andair valve has that engraved plate with left/right labeling whereas you have to stick or paint on labels with the other. 3) The andair valve has a more positive detent feel for when you get to the left or right position. 4) The andair valve has an OFF position that you can't get to by just twisting the valve...you couldn't do it by accident. I'll be flying with kids on 95% of my flights, and they like to climb around and trade seats. 5) It's not really a retrofit difficulty...you have to build the whole fuel line system anyway. The convolution is in the STANDARD valve...you have to cross the fuel lines so the Left line feeds the RIGH side of the valve, and vice versa. This is an incredibly screwed up situation, which has already led to one other builder mounting hsi standard valve backwards just to make the convoluted routing simpler. The Andair valve is a much more straightforward and logical plumbing job. 6) The plane is going to be > $150K....point #1 is just too much to bear when the andair looks so nice. I'm not building a flying lawn tractor. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage John Jessen wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" > > Gentlemen: What is the reason to go with the Andair? To go to all this > retrofitting difficulty? > > John Jessen > (4lbs 15.9 oz of rivets to go) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R > [NTK] > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:17 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" > --> > > Tim, I mount the Andair fuel valave exactly like yours. I used the > origal brack to mark the position and then made a plate that would rivet to > the top of it once I cut the center out of the original piece which just > leaves the angles. I them move it vertically to the point where it just > meets the underside of the tunnel cover. I have the valve centered in the > tunnel with the left point directly left and right pointing directly right. > The problem I am now trying to solve is that the left inlet to the valve is > still too close to the tunnel side that it is impossible to get the flare > connection on a 90 degree fitting in the valve. It is about 1/8" - 1/4" too > long to fit. The issue is the 90 degree fitting will not thread far enough > into the valve to get better clearance. I am trying to find a shorter 90 > fitting today that will improve this clearance issue. Also note that this > fitting may have to be turned aft to be able to clear the rudder cables. > > > > > Thank You > Ray Doerr > CDNI Principal Engineer > Sprint PCS > 16020 West 113th Street > Lenexa, KS 66219 > Mailstop KSLNXK0101 > (913) 859-1414 (Office) > (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) > (913) 859-1234 (Fax) > Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:01 AM > To: RV10 > Subject: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > > Hi all, > > I got started on my Andair fuel valve install this weekend. Only got > started and not finished because as it turns out, the valve that Wicks > sells is NOT the one you'd want to do the -10. Van's sells one with > 1/4" NPT, but Wicks has 3/8" MALE flare. The fix is to send back the > Wicks valve and buy one from Van's, or spend over $55 for a 90 degree > swivel Banjo fitting for the Andair from Wicks. Don't know which way > it'll be yet though. > > I did get started on the mounting for the Andair valve, using photos > from Bob Condrey and Vic Syracuse. I tried to take some good > preliminary ones until I get my new valve though, so feel free to > read about it in the fuselage section here: > > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/ > > Also, I did my interior painting today. My end result will be very > good, but the spraying was not without issue. I made a big mistake > early on in the cleaning process that I'm not happy with that caused > me to have plenty of lint trapped in the paint. Luckily for me it > was mainly on the floor panels where I'll put carpet anyway. I put some > tips from lessons learned the hard way on that same link, but in the > fuselage interior painting section. > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:51 PM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=peeOfv+N6pg4iXUSecCgDswWYoU5wv23A1XPbgsjSGfQIxWeFvwEqq8FJJKUhJ5XDmLYczPlumYbGLXIIongqwH41uqbbA+vASrO4Wcq6om8JO1pBUBs2hCI1aKSX8NFZ+Ij4LTnfG8deK5u9rgb2mBzKIS+aEaIOerY0ogzHUc= ; From: Nikolaos Napoli Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve Hey Tim, Don't mean to criticize your work, however, I felt I had to mention this. I looked at the pictures of the cut ribs. The curved surface of the modified ribs is not capable of carrying much load. The modified rib appears to be much weaker than the original rib even with the curved stiffener. Without knowing much about your configuration or how much load it has to carry, I would suggest at least a doubler on the rib. If you would like you can give me a call my phone number is in the SunNFun list. By the way, my background is in Aerospace Engineering specifically structural analysis of aircraft. Niko Tim Olson wrote: --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Hi all, I got started on my Andair fuel valve install this weekend. Only got started and not finished because as it turns out, the valve that Wicks sells is NOT the one you'd want to do the -10. Van's sells one with 1/4" NPT, but Wicks has 3/8" MALE flare. The fix is to send back the Wicks valve and buy one from Van's, or spend over $55 for a 90 degree swivel Banjo fitting for the Andair from Wicks. Don't know which way it'll be yet though. I did get started on the mounting for the Andair valve, using photos from Bob Condrey and Vic Syracuse. I tried to take some good preliminary ones until I get my new valve though, so feel free to read about it in the fuselage section here: http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/ Also, I did my interior painting today. My end result will be very good, but the spraying was not without issue. I made a big mistake early on in the cleaning process that I'm not happy with that caused me to have plenty of lint trapped in the paint. Luckily for me it was mainly on the floor panels where I'll put carpet anyway. I put some tips from lessons learned the hard way on that same link, but in the fuselage interior painting section. -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:11 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Good info Randy. The moral of the story is: Next time you order from Vans or Aircraft Spruce, add a bunch of lower profile locknuts in AN3 and AN4 sizes. Now, if I'd only heeded that advice this a.m. Here is a link to some nuts that might make good ones, but I'm not a hardware expert. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/an363.php Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Randy DeBauw wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" > > You can't put a longer bolt in the location because It isn't a bolt at > all. It is the torque tube end that you drill and pop rivet into the > steel tube. The other end has a threaded stud machined on it. You may > not have to use a thinner nut or a high temp self locking nut like I did > depending on what washer combo you end up with to get the spacing > correct. Randy > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 1:24 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" > > Longer bolts are best. Randy was going to post the multiple locations > where nuts were replaced to allow more "Thread Show". Both Randy and I > had kid's graduate from University of Oregon this Saturday so he is > probably still in shock over the reality. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:52 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification > > --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs > > Hrm. Is there a list of the locations where this is true? Or do we need > to check each nut against the accepted standards? > > Where does one get a "thinner" nut? I always thought the nuts were > pretty standard... do we just need to use longer bolts? > > Thanks, > James > > [John Cox] DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:01 PM PST US d="scan'208"; a="49892415:sNHT35470604" From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" Thanks. The only RV's I've personally helped with have installed these valves. They are very well built. John Jessen (Amazed at how poorly SW988 sprays on, must be doing something wrong) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob (US SSA) Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve  --> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" --> In my mind #3&4 below are the primary reasons to switch valves. The Andair valve has positive detents only at the 2 fuel tank locations. To switch the valve you have to lift a button in the middle of the selector and twist to the off position where it locks. One other factor for folks that worry stuff is that the valve mechanism is "make before brake". This means that there isn't a position between the two tank selections where there is no fuel flowing. You can absolutely get by with the one in the kit, and most RV builders have. You can also get by with only a simple set of steam gauges and a VFR only GPS/COM in the panel. Switching to the Andair valve WILL cost you some money and time over using the kit supplied valve. However, when you're finished it won't look like you've adapted a steam valve from the Queen Mary for use as a fuel selector :) Bob #40105 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Good question. Here's my answer: 1) The standard valve is very ugly 2) The andair valve has that engraved plate with left/right labeling whereas you have to stick or paint on labels with the other. 3) The andair valve has a more positive detent feel for when you get to the left or right position. 4) The andair valve has an OFF position that you can't get to by just twisting the valve...you couldn't do it by accident. I'll be flying with kids on 95% of my flights, and they like to climb around and trade seats. 5) It's not really a retrofit difficulty...you have to build the whole fuel line system anyway. The convolution is in the STANDARD valve...you have to cross the fuel lines so the Left line feeds the RIGH side of the valve, and vice versa. This is an incredibly screwed up situation, which has already led to one other builder mounting hsi standard valve backwards just to make the convoluted routing simpler. The Andair valve is a much more straightforward and logical plumbing job. 6) The plane is going to be > $150K....point #1 is just too much to bear when the andair looks so nice. I'm not building a flying lawn tractor. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage John Jessen wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" > > Gentlemen: What is the reason to go with the Andair? To go to all this > retrofitting difficulty? > > John Jessen > (4lbs 15.9 oz of rivets to go) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R > [NTK] > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:17 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" > --> > > Tim, I mount the Andair fuel valave exactly like yours. I used the > origal brack to mark the position and then made a plate that would rivet to > the top of it once I cut the center out of the original piece which just > leaves the angles. I them move it vertically to the point where it just > meets the underside of the tunnel cover. I have the valve centered in the > tunnel with the left point directly left and right pointing directly right. > The problem I am now trying to solve is that the left inlet to the valve is > still too close to the tunnel side that it is impossible to get the flare > connection on a 90 degree fitting in the valve. It is about 1/8" - 1/4" too > long to fit. The issue is the 90 degree fitting will not thread far enough > into the valve to get better clearance. I am trying to find a shorter 90 > fitting today that will improve this clearance issue. Also note that this > fitting may have to be turned aft to be able to clear the rudder cables. > > > > > Thank You > Ray Doerr > CDNI Principal Engineer > Sprint PCS > 16020 West 113th Street > Lenexa, KS 66219 > Mailstop KSLNXK0101 > (913) 859-1414 (Office) > (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) > (913) 859-1234 (Fax) > Ray.R.Doerr@mail.sprint.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:01 AM > To: RV10 > Subject: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > > Hi all, > > I got started on my Andair fuel valve install this weekend. Only got > started and not finished because as it turns out, the valve that Wicks > sells is NOT the one you'd want to do the -10. Van's sells one with > 1/4" NPT, but Wicks has 3/8" MALE flare. The fix is to send back the > Wicks valve and buy one from Van's, or spend over $55 for a 90 degree > swivel Banjo fitting for the Andair from Wicks. Don't know which way > it'll be yet though. > > I did get started on the mounting for the Andair valve, using photos > from Bob Condrey and Vic Syracuse. I tried to take some good > preliminary ones until I get my new valve though, so feel free to read > about it in the fuselage section here: > > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/ > > Also, I did my interior painting today. My end result will be very > good, but the spraying was not without issue. I made a big mistake > early on in the cleaning process that I'm not happy with that caused > me to have plenty of lint trapped in the paint. Luckily for me it was > mainly on the floor panels where I'll put carpet anyway. I put some > tips from lessons learned the hard way on that same link, but in the > fuselage interior painting section. > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:09 PM PST US d="scan'208,217"; a="49893133:sNHT34507554" From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve When you two figure this out, PLEASE let us know the result. I think we are all cutting these in some form or other and an example, even though not the same, since all panels will differ, will certainly benefit all. If there is an excel spreadsheet that can help out, that would be icing on the cake. John Jessen (beginning to like Chilton's, darn) _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos Napoli Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve Hey Tim, Don't mean to criticize your work, however, I felt I had to mention this. I looked at the pictures of the cut ribs. The curved surface of the modified ribs is not capable of carrying much load. The modified rib appears to be much weaker than the original rib even with the curved stiffener. Without knowing much about your configuration or how much load it has to carry, I would suggest at least a doubler on the rib. If you would like you can give me a call my phone number is in the SunNFun list. By the way, my background is in Aerospace Engineering specifically structural analysis of aircraft. Niko Tim Olson wrote: --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Hi all, I got started on my Andair fuel valve install this weekend. Only got started and not finished because as it turns out, the valve that Wicks sells is NOT the one you'd want to do the -10. Van's sells one with 1/4" NPT, but Wicks has 3/8" MALE flare. The fix is to send back the Wicks valve and buy one from Van's, or spend over $55 for a 90 degree swivel Banjo fitting for the Andair from Wicks. Don't know which way it'll be yet though. I did get started on the mounting for the Andair valve, using photos from Bob Condrey and Vic Syracuse. I tried to take some good preliminary ones until I get my new valve though, so feel free to read about it in the fuselage section here: http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/ Also, I did my interior painting today. My end ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:50 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Understood. But, let me ask a question back. #1, the rib is now effectively "doubled" by more than it's original thickness in the vertical plane. It used to have a thin horizontal bend on the bottom of the rib, made out of the rib itself. This piece surely isn't very structural at those bends, but it is a .063 angle, which is thicker than the rib material orignally was....and since it's actually aluminum angle it should be pretty strong on the other half. If someone were to want to go for a little more strength, by just not bending the aluminum strip, you'd probably gain way more back than the original rib had. The way it sits now, I don't feel that it's too terribly different than original. About the only weaker dimension would be if you were to pull directly downward on that rib, and managed to fold the rib along one of those curved areas. Another option as you noted would be to actually put a doubler plate over that rib in addition. This would increase the strength a lot too. When I cut the rib out, before I put the new piece in, I pulled on that rib a bit and with the upper skin riveted everywhere as well, and in that arched curve shape, it seems to be very stiff anyway and should be pretty resistant to any type of bend. I'm not saying it shouldn't have any more added to it than it does...you'd know better than me with your background. I do think it should be plenty adequate, but it could also be improved on. I'll look at it a little more tonight. The everyday loads on that part aren't that big at all. It would only be in the extreme crash scenario where I'd have any question at all. Remember that there's more structure in place once you tie the cross piece under the panel into the airframe, and the panel itself would prevent that rib from bending down. But, your comments are well taken and are exactly the kinds of things I want to hear and are nice to see on this list. I may just call you tonight if I get time. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Nikolaos Napoli wrote: > Hey Tim, > > Don't mean to criticize your work, however, I felt I had to mention > this. I looked at the pictures of the cut ribs. The curved surface of > the modified ribs is not capable of carrying much load. The modified > rib appears to be much weaker than the original rib even with the curved > stiffener. Without knowing much about your configuration or how much > load it has to carry, I would suggest at least a doubler on the rib. If > you would like you can give me a call my phone number is in the SunNFun > list. > > By the way, my background is in Aerospace Engineering specifically > structural analysis of aircraft. > > Niko > > > > */Tim Olson /* wrote: > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > > Hi all, > > I got started on my Andair fuel valve install this weekend. Only got > started and not finished because as it turns out, the valve that Wicks > sells is NOT the one you'd want to do the -10. Van's sells one with > 1/4" NPT, but Wicks has 3/8" MALE flare. The fix is to send back the > Wicks valve and buy one from Van's, or spend over $55 for a 90 degree > swivel Banjo fitting for the Andair from Wicks. Don't know which way > it'll be yet though. > > I did get started on the mounting for the Andair valve, using photos > from Bob Condrey and Vic Syracuse. I tried to take some good > preliminary ones until I get my new valve though, so feel free to > read about it in the fuselage section here: > > http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/ > > Also, I did my interior painting today. My end ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:26 PM PST US From: Rick Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick John, Isn't it a lot more comforting to relate to the number of rivets left in lbs/oz??? Cool response!!! Rick S. 40185 Wings do not archive ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:04 PM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=L8n2o77n9gzjwz+zpXb60T2/wcRRR5ZmO5dQxOFofNiuNd43+RIAU0It7V4hkbhHb8wFxLnzeEjvuZOcpoba4EHPbEO3kkFgYtSCdzkWRzIRlGPxW4kKo4S/3JK/+r1kD7tF2miTZfMdCCB6sZ4SQ50NrIJZWa52CbBYAvAX/U0= ; From: Nikolaos Napoli Subject: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Here is how I might make a rib mod. It might be overkill, however, unless I knew what the loads were I would have no choice but to replace the original strength. Niko 40188 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:11 PM PST US From: "brian bollaert" Subject: RV10-List: Fw: RV-10 top photos To the group : For others that may have trouble figureing where to trim these pieces on the fiberglass top . Brian B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Risan " Subject: RV-10 top photos > here's a couple photos with approximate trim lines. If you can't see > the scribe lines, leave this proud so that you can trim a little as > the installation progresses. > > regards, scott at van's > > ---- > The following section of this message contains a file attachment > prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. > If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system, > you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. > If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. > > ---- File information ----------- > File: Door2.jpg > Date: 13 Jun 2005, 13:01 > Size: 83279 bytes. > Type: JPEG-image > ---- > The following section of this message contains a file attachment > prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. > If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system, > you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. > If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. > > ---- File information ----------- > File: DOOR1.jpg > Date: 13 Jun 2005, 12:31 > Size: 312317 bytes. > Type: JPEG-image > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:06 PM PST US From: "brian bollaert" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: "brian bollaert" Well said John (glad i could bring a smile with coffee ) Tim is very much an asset , with all his contributions as are all who do so ! this area is very much a online university and free at that (just your time ) Brian B ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W. Cox" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" > > Brian, you crack me up on a Monday morning. Just think if N220RV had no > white paint. John Deere Green top and bottom. In reality there is a > lot of Americana attitude that goes with the John Deere design. I can > just hear Toby Keith in the background now shouting from the door of his > Ford Pickup. Even EAA has embraced Green machines. > > Unfortunately, just as there is a RV-grin, there is a balancing RV-frown > every time a builder suggests modification of plans, alterations, > improvements or enhancement ideas, more horsepower or changes to their > RV Experimental built aeroplane. Yet my enthusiasm jumps each time I > watch video of Dan Checkoway's flying after he committed Deere blasphemy > by exceeding the 180 hp rule and slipped in that heart thumping 200 hp > Powerplant into his pristine RV-7. I still get a thrill looking at the > HRII or HRIII aesthetically. Lord help anyone suggesting providing > Builder Assist to the congregation during a chant session. > > The RV-10 is a great plan, but this is the 21 century and VFR only with > steam gages are indeed slipping the way of classic and antique > aeroplanes of the last century as valued possessions. Tim's panel is a > refreshing perspective of "Being All Your RV-10 Can Be". His willingness > to post progress, ideas, potholes along the road and resources used are > valued. > > Three more international certified manufacturers have airframes under > tarp at Garmin-KSLE getting certification for G1000 glass cockpits. I > can smell the roses now - oh that's right... the US Navy fleet just left > Portland from the Rose Festival Weekend. Time to get back to work, but > thanks for the morning smile. > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > John - KUAO > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of brian > bollaert > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 9:33 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "brian bollaert" > > > Hey Tim : > > The -10 is nothing more than John Deer with wings !! , by the way the > hing > pin material Per Vans comes in the finishing Kit . Wondering if i should > switch out the fuel selecter valve ? and go with the andair hhhmm . > > Brian Bollaert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim Olson" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 9:15 AM > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve > > > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > > > Good question. Here's my answer: > > > > 1) The standard valve is very ugly > > 2) The andair valve has that engraved plate with left/right labeling > > whereas you have to stick or paint on labels with the other. > > 3) The andair valve has a more positive detent feel for when you get > > to the left or right position. > > 4) The andair valve has an OFF position that you can't get to by > > just twisting the valve...you couldn't do it by accident. > > I'll be flying with kids on 95% of my flights, and they > > like to climb around and trade seats. > > 5) It's not really a retrofit difficulty...you have to build the > > whole fuel line system anyway. The convolution is in the > > STANDARD valve...you have to cross the fuel lines so the > > Left line feeds the RIGH side of the valve, and vice versa. > > This is an incredibly screwed up situation, which has already > > led to one other builder mounting hsi standard valve backwards > > just to make the convoluted routing simpler. The Andair valve > > is a much more straightforward and logical plumbing job. > > 6) The plane is going to be > $150K....point #1 is just too much > > to bear when the andair looks so nice. I'm not building a > > flying lawn tractor. > > > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > > Current project: Fuselage > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:54:35 PM PST US From: "brian bollaert" Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification --> RV10-List message posted by: "brian bollaert" Hi James : an A&P mechanic from hanger next to me came over a month ago and looked over the nuts & bolts on my -10 and pointed out that he was not comfortable with the amount of thread that was not visable outside the nut (makes sense to me ) so i have lengthend several at least 5 or 6 threads shoul be visable he said . Brian B ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Ochs" Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification > --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs > > Hrm. Is there a list of the locations where this is true? Or do we need > to check each nut against the accepted standards? > > Where does one get a "thinner" nut? I always thought the nuts were > pretty standard... do we just need to use longer bolts? > > Thanks, > James > > John W. Cox wrote: > > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" > > > >Nuts spec'ed too thick by plan, was one of the major issues found by > >Randy's DAR in multiple locations. The change out was easy, but an EAA > >Tech visit along the journey is a great recommendation prior to the > >signoff. > > > >John - KUAO > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > >Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 10:19 PM > >To: RV10 > >Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification > > > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > > >Forgot to add a couple notes to my last email: > > > >#1. I also did the modification to my left and right panel ribs, in > >preparation for my Chelton system. See here for photos: > > > >http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050610 > > > > > >And, Saturday a.m. I got a great visit from Gary Specketer and his wife. > > > > Gary's an RV-10 builder and EAA Technical counselor who's built a few > >other planes in the past. It was fantastic to have someone like him > >come and look ove rmy work. I might be wrong, but I think the only > >actual builder who's ever seen my plane is a buddy who's building > >a -4, so it was great to get his stamp of approval on what I've done > >so far. I didn't realize that the FAA looks positively at the fact > >that you've had 3 visits from EAA Tech. counselors. In the short time > >he was over, I got good advice on a few issues, and he found a couple > >of rivets that Van's spec'd too short, and nuts that were spec'd too > >thick, not allowing enough threads to show. If you haven't looked > >into an EAA Technical counselor visit, I'd encourage a new builder to > >probably meet one too look at your Vertical Stab just to ease > >your mind, and then possibly inspect at the end of your empennage, > >and end of the wings. Since this was my first visit out of at > >least 3 that I should try for, I'll probably do one as a pre-signoff > >inspection, and maybe one a the time I mate up my wings. It's a > >great and valuable service these guys are performing. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. Douglas Adams, 'The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy' > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:19 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod From: "John W. Cox" Niko, your illustration drives home the point and is most appreciated. However, your illustration shows an actual cut in the lower diagonal edge into four independent and separate elements. Tim's work introduced bends into this (diagonal curved) edge without cuts clear through, which would decrease strength yet his cuts were only on the vertical which were effectively doubled back into the original rib vertical. There must be a computer analysis that could computate the revised doubled design with comparison to the original rib. We could calculate the weight of desired safety components (glass cockpit technology) and the effective arm down to 00.01" then couldn't you derive the lever down force on the instrument face. Am I missing something? The real issue ought to be a mechanism to improve placement of ribs F-1045-L & R along the firewall and incorporate mounting of the instrument panel and sunscreen to give the widest range of ergonomically placed and visually oriented safety equipment. It creates a conundrum on how Lancair was able to mount Randy's stuff so stylishly without engineering compromise. John ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos Napoli Subject: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Here is how I might make a rib mod. It might be overkill, however, unless I knew what the loads were I would have no choice but to replace the original strength. Niko 40188 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:13 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Just browsing Chapter 41 of the fuse plans where it says not to remove any material from any of these three ribs . . . TDT ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Niko, your illustration drives home the point and is most appreciated. However, your illustration shows an actual cut in the lower diagonal edge into four independent and separate elements. Tim's work introduced bends into this (diagonal curved) edge without cuts clear through, which would decrease strength yet his cuts were only on the vertical which were effectively doubled back into the original rib vertical. There must be a computer analysis that could computate the revised doubled design with comparison to the original rib. We could calculate the weight of desired safety components (glass cockpit technology) and the effective arm down to 00.01" then couldn't you derive the lever down force on the instrument face. Am I missing something? The real issue ought to be a mechanism to improve placement of ribs F-1045-L & R along the firewall and incorporate mounting of the instrument panel and sunscreen to give the widest range of ergonomically placed and visually oriented safety equipment. It creates a conundrum on how Lancair was able to mount Randy's stuff so stylishly without engineering compromise. John ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos Napoli Subject: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Here is how I might make a rib mod. It might be overkill, however, unless I knew what the loads were I would have no choice but to replace the original strength. Niko 40188 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:36 PM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification You can answer a lot of fastener questions by going to AC 43.13 which is here: and has everything you need to know about repairs (also applies to original construction) in all kinds of medium. Chapter 4 covers metal structure, welding and brazing. I should keep my copy next to the john, but it stays in my hangar. ;-) Linn do not archive brian bollaert wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: "brian bollaert" > >Hi James : > >an A&P mechanic from hanger next to me came over a month ago and looked >over the nuts & bolts on my -10 and pointed out that he was not comfortable >with the amount of thread that was not visable outside the nut (makes sense >to me ) so i have lengthend several at least 5 or 6 threads shoul be visable >he said . > >Brian B >----- Original Message ----- >From: "James Ochs" >To: >Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:52 AM >Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification > > > > >>--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs >> >>Hrm. Is there a list of the locations where this is true? Or do we need >>to check each nut against the accepted standards? >> >>Where does one get a "thinner" nut? I always thought the nuts were >>pretty standard... do we just need to use longer bolts? >> >>Thanks, >>James >> >>John W. Cox wrote: >> >> >> >>>--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" >>> >>>Nuts spec'ed too thick by plan, was one of the major issues found by >>>Randy's DAR in multiple locations. The change out was easy, but an EAA >>>Tech visit along the journey is a great recommendation prior to the >>>signoff. >>> >>>John - KUAO >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson >>>Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 10:19 PM >>>To: RV10 >>>Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Panel Rib modification >>> >>>--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson >>> >>>Forgot to add a couple notes to my last email: >>> >>>#1. I also did the modification to my left and right panel ribs, in >>>preparation for my Chelton system. See here for photos: >>> >>>http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050610 >>> >>> >>>And, Saturday a.m. I got a great visit from Gary Specketer and his wife. >>> >>> Gary's an RV-10 builder and EAA Technical counselor who's built a few >>>other planes in the past. It was fantastic to have someone like him >>>come and look ove rmy work. I might be wrong, but I think the only >>>actual builder who's ever seen my plane is a buddy who's building >>>a -4, so it was great to get his stamp of approval on what I've done >>>so far. I didn't realize that the FAA looks positively at the fact >>>that you've had 3 visits from EAA Tech. counselors. In the short time >>>he was over, I got good advice on a few issues, and he found a couple >>>of rivets that Van's spec'd too short, and nuts that were spec'd too >>>thick, not allowing enough threads to show. If you haven't looked >>>into an EAA Technical counselor visit, I'd encourage a new builder to >>>probably meet one too look at your Vertical Stab just to ease >>>your mind, and then possibly inspect at the end of your empennage, >>>and end of the wings. Since this was my first visit out of at >>>least 3 that I should try for, I'll probably do one as a pre-signoff >>>inspection, and maybe one a the time I mate up my wings. It's a >>>great and valuable service these guys are performing. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>-- >>There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw >> >> >yourself at the ground and miss. Douglas Adams, 'The Hitchhikers Guide to >the Galaxy' > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:29 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod From: "John W. Cox" --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" "Removal of material from the F-1044 Center (Forward) Fuselage Rib subassembly OR F-1045-Left (Forward) Fuselage Rib and Right (Forward) Fuselage Rib is not allowed." There is no mention of the portion AFT of said components. I interpret that to currently allow the builder to modify the aft portions on F-1044 Center Subassembly towards the PIC at F-1003C-Left, Center and Right from F-1068B Center going AFT on F-1045L and from F-1068B R going AFT on F- 1045 Right would be reasonably acceptable. Meaning that Tim's modification is within the scope of current written instructions on Page 41-2 dated July 21, 2004. Good news for pursuit of 21st Century instruments. I must still be missing something. On a second note: you can certainly read it that way and not pursue room for Chelton, BMA, GRapids or other glass components while keeping the music "On Key". It is a great discussion point and demonstrates the value of this forum. John - $00.02 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Just browsing Chapter 41 of the fuse plans where it says not to remove any material from any of these three ribs . . . TDT From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Niko, your illustration drives home the point and is most appreciated. However, your illustration shows an actual cut in the lower diagonal edge into four independent and separate elements. Tim's work introduced bends into this (diagonal curved) edge without cuts clear through, which would decrease strength yet his cuts were only on the vertical which were effectively doubled back into the original rib vertical. There must be a computer analysis that could computate the revised doubled design with comparison to the original rib. We could calculate the weight of desired safety components (glass cockpit technology) and the effective arm down to 00.01" then couldn't you derive the lever down force on the instrument face. Am I missing something? The real issue ought to be a mechanism to improve placement of ribs F-1045-L & R along the firewall and incorporate mounting of the instrument panel and sunscreen to give the widest range of ergonomically placed and visually oriented safety equipment. It creates a conundrum on how Lancair was able to mount Randy's stuff so stylishly without engineering compromise. John From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos Napoli Subject: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Here is how I might make a rib mod. It might be overkill, however, unless I knew what the loads were I would have no choice but to replace the original strength. Niko 40188 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:45 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve From: "Greg Young" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Greg Young" Can't help you there - I got mine at their booth at Oshkosh last year. You might try some of the vendors like Spruce, Avery, Cleaveland. Greg > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > Any idea of how long it took to get? I'd like to have this > all done this week. > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > Greg Young wrote: > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Greg Young" > > > > You could also replace the fitting on the Andair valve, > assuming it's > > one of the side fittings. I got replacements from Andair > for ~$12 each. > > > > Greg > > > > > >>--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:10 PM PST US d="scan'208"; a="1014167796:sNHT53464912" From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod --> RV10-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" Anyone on this list that built a slider RV6, 7 or 9 of past will recall exactly the same issues. In fact, a very large majority of anyone who put anything other than 2 instruments in their panel had to modify those ribs. The design is nearly identical, and the issue is nearly identical. It's been pretty common practice for quite a number of years now to modify those ribs FORWARD of the sub panel (not behind) to accomodate a variety of instruments - NOT just glass, which brings up the second subject...the sub panel itself. Give the depth of many radios, transponders, etc... sometimes people have to hack holes in the sub-panel as well. No nearly as big of a deal in the -10 because of the room, but the 3 panel ribs have the same issue the rest of the fleet has had for years. Anyone who put a radio stack in the center of the panel usually had to gently "modify" for that reason as well. Standard practice has pretty much become to do nearly exactly what Tim O did (or variation thereof). Van's may not openly endorse such practices, but that's what's happened over the years. If you build a panel like Van's does with nothing in it, it's not a problem, but the other 99% of us that put more than 4 gauges in the panel will end up dealing with it sooner or later in some form or another. Not saying any way is better than another to do the mods, but from a "strength" standpoint, Tim's ribs probably ended up stronger than the original, as did many who modified them in similar ways. Anyway, just my 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" "Removal of material from the F-1044 Center (Forward) Fuselage Rib subassembly OR F-1045-Left (Forward) Fuselage Rib and Right (Forward) Fuselage Rib is not allowed." There is no mention of the portion AFT of said components. I interpret that to currently allow the builder to modify the aft portions on F-1044 Center Subassembly towards the PIC at F-1003C-Left, Center and Right from F-1068B Center going AFT on F-1045L and from F-1068B R going AFT on F- 1045 Right would be reasonably acceptable. Meaning that Tim's modification is within the scope of current written instructions on Page 41-2 dated July 21, 2004. Good news for pursuit of 21st Century instruments. I must still be missing something. On a second note: you can certainly read it that way and not pursue room for Chelton, BMA, GRapids or other glass components while keeping the music "On Key". It is a great discussion point and demonstrates the value of this forum. John - $00.02 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Just browsing Chapter 41 of the fuse plans where it says not to remove any material from any of these three ribs . . . TDT From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Niko, your illustration drives home the point and is most appreciated. However, your illustration shows an actual cut in the lower diagonal edge into four independent and separate elements. Tim's work introduced bends into this (diagonal curved) edge without cuts clear through, which would decrease strength yet his cuts were only on the vertical which were effectively doubled back into the original rib vertical. There must be a computer analysis that could computate the revised doubled design with comparison to the original rib. We could calculate the weight of desired safety components (glass cockpit technology) and the effective arm down to 00.01" then couldn't you derive the lever down force on the instrument face. Am I missing something? The real issue ought to be a mechanism to improve placement of ribs F-1045-L & R along the firewall and incorporate mounting of the instrument panel and sunscreen to give the widest range of ergonomically placed and visually oriented safety equipment. It creates a conundrum on how Lancair was able to mount Randy's stuff so stylishly without engineering compromise. John From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos Napoli Subject: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Here is how I might make a rib mod. It might be overkill, however, unless I knew what the loads were I would have no choice but to replace the original strength. Niko 40188 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:35 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve From: "Greg Young" Speaking of John Deere schemes... It's nice to have a graphic artist working for you8-) Greg Do not archive > > Hmmmm, maybe I should re-work my paint schemes for either > John Deere Green, Ford Tractor Blue, or Catapiller Yellow. ;) > > Tim > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:32 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" Heh, heh. When you guys say "forward of the sub panel" you actually mean "aft of the sub panel", right? (i.e. toward the rear of the aircraft . . .) TDT do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Stein Bruch Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod --> RV10-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" Anyone on this list that built a slider RV6, 7 or 9 of past will recall exactly the same issues. In fact, a very large majority of anyone who put anything other than 2 instruments in their panel had to modify those ribs. The design is nearly identical, and the issue is nearly identical. It's been pretty common practice for quite a number of years now to modify those ribs FORWARD of the sub panel (not behind) to accomodate a variety of instruments - NOT just glass, which brings up the second subject...the sub panel itself. Give the depth of many radios, transponders, etc... sometimes people have to hack holes in the sub-panel as well. No nearly as big of a deal in the -10 because of the room, but the 3 panel ribs have the same issue the rest of the fleet has had for years. Anyone who put a radio stack in the center of the panel usually had to gently "modify" for that reason as well. Standard practice has pretty much become to do nearly exactly what Tim O did (or variation thereof). Van's may not openly endorse such practices, but that's what's happened over the years. If you build a panel like Van's does with nothing in it, it's not a problem, but the other 99% of us that put more than 4 gauges in the panel will end up dealing with it sooner or later in some form or another. Not saying any way is better than another to do the mods, but from a "strength" standpoint, Tim's ribs probably ended up stronger than the original, as did many who modified them in similar ways. Anyway, just my 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" "Removal of material from the F-1044 Center (Forward) Fuselage Rib subassembly OR F-1045-Left (Forward) Fuselage Rib and Right (Forward) Fuselage Rib is not allowed." There is no mention of the portion AFT of said components. I interpret that to currently allow the builder to modify the aft portions on F-1044 Center Subassembly towards the PIC at F-1003C-Left, Center and Right from F-1068B Center going AFT on F-1045L and from F-1068B R going AFT on F- 1045 Right would be reasonably acceptable. Meaning that Tim's modification is within the scope of current written instructions on Page 41-2 dated July 21, 2004. Good news for pursuit of 21st Century instruments. I must still be missing something. On a second note: you can certainly read it that way and not pursue room for Chelton, BMA, GRapids or other glass components while keeping the music "On Key". It is a great discussion point and demonstrates the value of this forum. John - $00.02 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Just browsing Chapter 41 of the fuse plans where it says not to remove any material from any of these three ribs . . . TDT From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Niko, your illustration drives home the point and is most appreciated. However, your illustration shows an actual cut in the lower diagonal edge into four independent and separate elements. Tim's work introduced bends into this (diagonal curved) edge without cuts clear through, which would decrease strength yet his cuts were only on the vertical which were effectively doubled back into the original rib vertical. There must be a computer analysis that could computate the revised doubled design with comparison to the original rib. We could calculate the weight of desired safety components (glass cockpit technology) and the effective arm down to 00.01" then couldn't you derive the lever down force on the instrument face. Am I missing something? The real issue ought to be a mechanism to improve placement of ribs F-1045-L & R along the firewall and incorporate mounting of the instrument panel and sunscreen to give the widest range of ergonomically placed and visually oriented safety equipment. It creates a conundrum on how Lancair was able to mount Randy's stuff so stylishly without engineering compromise. John From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos Napoli Subject: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Here is how I might make a rib mod. It might be overkill, however, unless I knew what the loads were I would have no choice but to replace the original strength. Niko 40188 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:38 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve Cute. How about some Navion-style tip tanks on an RV-10? That might look good . . . TDT do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Greg Young Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve Speaking of John Deere schemes... It's nice to have a graphic artist working for you8-) Greg Do not archive > > Hmmmm, maybe I should re-work my paint schemes for either > John Deere Green, Ford Tractor Blue, or Catapiller Yellow. ;) > > Tim > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:11 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" My McDonald-Douglas Navion friends are out in the parking lot drinking beers, shouting Toby Kieth verse and getting ready to paint that water tower right now. Guess they beat us to it. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Young Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve Speaking of John Deere schemes... It's nice to have a graphic artist working for you8-) Greg Do not archive > > Hmmmm, maybe I should re-work my paint schemes for either > John Deere Green, Ford Tractor Blue, or Catapiller Yellow. ;) > > Tim > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:10 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: Admitting a stupid mistake - rudder pedals --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson If anyone else got confused by this, let me know so I don't feel like such a moron.... So, I assembled my rudder pedals, and riveted them nicely. primed in between the pedal and doubler, and decided I wanted nice shiny silver pedals. So, I only painted the "back" side. Which side is the back??? Well, of course, the rudder pedal with it's raised edges will cup your shoe of course, right? NOT!! Tonight I went to actually bolt in those pedals. I found that things weren't looking quite right per-plans. I thought perhaps the plans were off....until I looked at Randy's photos (worth a million bucks if you ask me). Sure as shinola those pedals go in so that they do not cup your feet....the concave side goes away from your foot. The thing that really confused it is that they show the doubler riveted onto what seemed to be the "back" side (really the front). So, my nice round-head rivets were on the back of the pedal in reality, and my foot would go on the shop head. Randy didn't rivet his per plans, from what I can tell. He put the doubler on the concave side of the pedal. This gives a smoother looking pedal since it doesn't have that ridge around the doubler in view. I see no issue with this. So, I drilled out each one of those rivets, and now I have to rivet them and paint them before I continue again...and they won't be that shiny silver anymore, but will have to match my interior paint. Oh well. Just thought I'd bring it up so that future builders don't have to make that mistake. Am I the only one? Tim -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:24 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Tell me that's photoshop, not real!!!!!! Around the prop I think I can tell it was altered....but man that's a good job! Even has the right lighting effects! Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage DO NOT ARCHIVE Greg Young wrote: > Speaking of John Deere schemes... It's nice to have a graphic artist > working for you8-) > > Greg > > Do not archive > > >>Hmmmm, maybe I should re-work my paint schemes for either >>John Deere Green, Ford Tractor Blue, or Catapiller Yellow. ;) >> >>Tim >> >>Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 >>Current project: Fuselage >> >>DO NOT ARCHIVE >> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:41 PM PST US From: "James Ochs" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod --> RV10-List message posted by: "James Ochs" I know it would be non-trivial, and I haven't really looked at how that area goes together (still working on my HS) but maybe one way to deal with it is to build some sort of truss, like with aluminum tubing or with I beams or something other than the ribs, so that you could get the same or better strength and use up less real estate. What are those ribs actually supporting? Just the glare shield and instruments? Or are they taking some of the loading from the canopy / firewall? I do have to say that Van's (the company in general) attitude towards instrumentation is, in my opinion, short-sighted and unrealistic, and is bordering on annoying the crap out of me ;) It seems that the whole reason they put out the 10 is so that people could have a solid x-country plane that carries passengers. This is going to obviate the desire for IFR and new instrumentation. Even if they didn't think about it to begin with, then I would think that enough customers saying "hey, we can't get anything but the minimums for vfr flight in the panel and this is a problem" would motivate them to redesign or suggest ways to work around the current design. Do not archive James #40400 Countersinking the HS spars -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stein Bruch Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod --> RV10-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" Anyone on this list that built a slider RV6, 7 or 9 of past will recall exactly the same issues. In fact, a very large majority of anyone who put anything other than 2 instruments in their panel had to modify those ribs. The design is nearly identical, and the issue is nearly identical. It's been pretty common practice for quite a number of years now to modify those ribs FORWARD of the sub panel (not behind) to accomodate a variety of instruments - NOT just glass, which brings up the second subject...the sub panel itself. Give the depth of many radios, transponders, etc... sometimes people have to hack holes in the sub-panel as well. No nearly as big of a deal in the -10 because of the room, but the 3 panel ribs have the same issue the rest of the fleet has had for years. Anyone who put a radio stack in the center of the panel usually had to gently "modify" for that reason as well. Standard practice has pretty much become to do nearly exactly what Tim O did (or variation thereof). Van's may not openly endorse such practices, but that's what's happened over the years. If you build a panel like Van's does with nothing in it, it's not a problem, but the other 99% of us that put more than 4 gauges in the panel will end up dealing with it sooner or later in some form or another. Not saying any way is better than another to do the mods, but from a "strength" standpoint, Tim's ribs probably ended up stronger than the original, as did many who modified them in similar ways. Anyway, just my 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" "Removal of material from the F-1044 Center (Forward) Fuselage Rib subassembly OR F-1045-Left (Forward) Fuselage Rib and Right (Forward) Fuselage Rib is not allowed." There is no mention of the portion AFT of said components. I interpret that to currently allow the builder to modify the aft portions on F-1044 Center Subassembly towards the PIC at F-1003C-Left, Center and Right from F-1068B Center going AFT on F-1045L and from F-1068B R going AFT on F- 1045 Right would be reasonably acceptable. Meaning that Tim's modification is within the scope of current written instructions on Page 41-2 dated July 21, 2004. Good news for pursuit of 21st Century instruments. I must still be missing something. On a second note: you can certainly read it that way and not pursue room for Chelton, BMA, GRapids or other glass components while keeping the music "On Key". It is a great discussion point and demonstrates the value of this forum. John - $00.02 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Just browsing Chapter 41 of the fuse plans where it says not to remove any material from any of these three ribs . . . TDT From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Niko, your illustration drives home the point and is most appreciated. However, your illustration shows an actual cut in the lower diagonal edge into four independent and separate elements. Tim's work introduced bends into this (diagonal curved) edge without cuts clear through, which would decrease strength yet his cuts were only on the vertical which were effectively doubled back into the original rib vertical. There must be a computer analysis that could computate the revised doubled design with comparison to the original rib. We could calculate the weight of desired safety components (glass cockpit technology) and the effective arm down to 00.01" then couldn't you derive the lever down force on the instrument face. Am I missing something? The real issue ought to be a mechanism to improve placement of ribs F-1045-L & R along the firewall and incorporate mounting of the instrument panel and sunscreen to give the widest range of ergonomically placed and visually oriented safety equipment. It creates a conundrum on how Lancair was able to mount Randy's stuff so stylishly without engineering compromise. John From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos Napoli Subject: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Here is how I might make a rib mod. It might be overkill, however, unless I knew what the loads were I would have no choice but to replace the original strength. Niko 40188 ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:26 PM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=4sLUPEsawyB/m1xIDS+nqjNzGyEJOWghDQHGhfR7R6021/AlbOAFwpV9ssYPFhC5M1eW/lbvHnCrwHNMdSpGP/ietXknLRLMenSBDQrvVMSTXsxHrFhb42HIIDBYgIRvpz7C/uGA2A8BnMvHtqLbweAGthH1LByyaP4hc3vphcM= ; From: Nikolaos Napoli Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Keep in mind that I have not studied the area in question. I have simply spent a few minutes looking at Tims drawings and realized that a good portion of the original strength of the part was not there. In fact I am not sure how the joints look at either end of the rib which could turn out to be very significant. In the sketch I am intending to show the horizontal stiffener as a single piece from front to back. It will carry the axial load resulting from the bending moment and tranfer some of it to the diagonal member and shear the rest into the web. This member combined with the diagonal and vertical members creates a truss structure. The vertical member at the deep end of the rib helps distribute the load from the horizontal member to the top and bottom members as I doubt the adjoining rib has any significant structure where the horizontal member ends. I have not sized any of these members, however, I suspect the horizontal member would have to be pretty beefy compared to what was there originally. If one took the original rib and simply reduced its height by a factor of 2 the resulting bending strength would be 1/4 of the original thus I would be expecting to add a lot of material in the narrow section. Maybe not 4 times as much if done smartly. What I am saying here is that the bending stress in the part is a quadratic function of the height. All things being equal, If you half the height you need 4 times the thickness. At the regions I pointed out (mod 1) the vertical leg of the stiffener is not there and the horizontal leg is curved which makes it not very effective. An example would be to look at a straight angle and imagine you are standing it up on its edge an applying a compressive load like a column. If you took that same angle and put a large bend in it along its length it would only carry a small fraction of its original load. Essentially the stiffener at the bottom of the rib, having a large curvature, can't carry much axial load thats why you rarely see curved stiffeners in an aircraft. When they have to be curved additional support has to be provided to support the curvature. About the only thing the curved stiffener in mod#1 can do effectively is keep that edge of the rib from buckling. Of course maybe thats the only thing it has to do. Thus if you combine about a 75% reduction in strength due to the loss of height with another loss due to the fact that the stiffener is curved you end up with very little strength compared to the original part. Is the remaining strength sufficient? I don't know. Currently I have no idea what the actual loads are and what direction they are in or the details of the structure here. Vans does have a tendency to overdesign a lot of areas so it could be that the stresses here are very low. Can the static loads be estimated and an analysis performed to see if the part is adequate statically? Yes it can, its not that difficult. A bigger question would be the vibratory environment its subjected to. That introduces a very large number of very small loads. Under such environment the allowable fatigue stresses in alluminum are very low and you don't get the benefit of material yielding you typically get under static loading. You could possibly expect the part to be fine under static loads but develop cracks shortly after its put to use. At that point if one has a hard landing they might find a whole bunch of equipment sitting on their lap or worse. Analysis for dynamic loads could be done, however, it would be a lot more involved and time consuming. Look at it this way. A person can withstand a 10g crash. With the current seat lets say the aircraft is seeing 15g and the person is seeing 10g (just a guess not based on anything). A 10lb piece of equipment will exert a 150lb load. If it lets go and hits someone that person will not do very well as the force of impact will be even greater. Having done this for more than 20 yrs now on both military and commercial aircraft I feel a lot more comfortable replacing the original strength than trying to figure out what the actual static and vibratory loads are especially as it appears the drawings are warning against mods here. I am planning on taking a better look at this area to see if I am missing any of the details. An item of importance would be how the rib flanges are attached, if they are, to the rest of the structure. Niko "John W. Cox" wrote: Niko, your illustration drives home the point and is most appreciated. However, your illustration shows an actual cut in the lower diagonal edge into four independent and separate elements. Tims work introduced bends into this (diagonal curved) edge without cuts clear through, which would decrease strength yet his cuts were only on the vertical which were effectively doubled back into the original rib vertical. There must be a computer analysis that could computate the revised doubled design with comparison to the original rib. We could calculate the weight of desired safety components (glass cockpit technology) and the effective arm down to 00.01 then couldnt you derive the lever down force on the instrument face. Am I missing something? The real issue ought to be a mechanism to improve placement of ribs F-1045-L & R along the firewall and incorporate mounting of the instrument panel and sunscreen to give the widest range of ergonomically placed and visually oriented safety equipment. It creates a conundrum on how Lancair was able to mount Randys stuff so stylishly without engineering compromise. John --------------------------------- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos Napoli Subject: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Here is how I might make a rib mod. It might be overkill, however, unless I knew what the loads were I would have no choice but to replace the original strength. Niko 40188 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:03 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod On the other hand, the design they had was fairly tried and true, and they had hundreds of people chanting, "Ship us kits! Ship us kits!" - so there are always compromises . . . TDT do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of James Ochs Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod --> RV10-List message posted by: "James Ochs" I know it would be non-trivial, and I haven't really looked at how that area goes together (still working on my HS) but maybe one way to deal with it is to build some sort of truss, like with aluminum tubing or with I beams or something other than the ribs, so that you could get the same or better strength and use up less real estate. What are those ribs actually supporting? Just the glare shield and instruments? Or are they taking some of the loading from the canopy / firewall? I do have to say that Van's (the company in general) attitude towards instrumentation is, in my opinion, short-sighted and unrealistic, and is bordering on annoying the crap out of me ;) It seems that the whole reason they put out the 10 is so that people could have a solid x-country plane that carries passengers. This is going to obviate the desire for IFR and new instrumentation. Even if they didn't think about it to begin with, then I would think that enough customers saying "hey, we can't get anything but the minimums for vfr flight in the panel and this is a problem" would motivate them to redesign or suggest ways to work around the current design. Do not archive James #40400 Countersinking the HS spars -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stein Bruch Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod --> RV10-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" Anyone on this list that built a slider RV6, 7 or 9 of past will recall exactly the same issues. In fact, a very large majority of anyone who put anything other than 2 instruments in their panel had to modify those ribs. The design is nearly identical, and the issue is nearly identical. It's been pretty common practice for quite a number of years now to modify those ribs FORWARD of the sub panel (not behind) to accomodate a variety of instruments - NOT just glass, which brings up the second subject...the sub panel itself. Give the depth of many radios, transponders, etc... sometimes people have to hack holes in the sub-panel as well. No nearly as big of a deal in the -10 because of the room, but the 3 panel ribs have the same issue the rest of the fleet has had for years. Anyone who put a radio stack in the center of the panel usually had to gently "modify" for that reason as well. Standard practice has pretty much become to do nearly exactly what Tim O did (or variation thereof). Van's may not openly endorse such practices, but that's what's happened over the years. If you build a panel like Van's does with nothing in it, it's not a problem, but the other 99% of us that put more than 4 gauges in the panel will end up dealing with it sooner or later in some form or another. Not saying any way is better than another to do the mods, but from a "strength" standpoint, Tim's ribs probably ended up stronger than the original, as did many who modified them in similar ways. Anyway, just my 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" "Removal of material from the F-1044 Center (Forward) Fuselage Rib subassembly OR F-1045-Left (Forward) Fuselage Rib and Right (Forward) Fuselage Rib is not allowed." There is no mention of the portion AFT of said components. I interpret that to currently allow the builder to modify the aft portions on F-1044 Center Subassembly towards the PIC at F-1003C-Left, Center and Right from F-1068B Center going AFT on F-1045L and from F-1068B R going AFT on F- 1045 Right would be reasonably acceptable. Meaning that Tim's modification is within the scope of current written instructions on Page 41-2 dated July 21, 2004. Good news for pursuit of 21st Century instruments. I must still be missing something. On a second note: you can certainly read it that way and not pursue room for Chelton, BMA, GRapids or other glass components while keeping the music "On Key". It is a great discussion point and demonstrates the value of this forum. John - $00.02 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Just browsing Chapter 41 of the fuse plans where it says not to remove any material from any of these three ribs . . . TDT From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Niko, your illustration drives home the point and is most appreciated. However, your illustration shows an actual cut in the lower diagonal edge into four independent and separate elements. Tim's work introduced bends into this (diagonal curved) edge without cuts clear through, which would decrease strength yet his cuts were only on the vertical which were effectively doubled back into the original rib vertical. There must be a computer analysis that could computate the revised doubled design with comparison to the original rib. We could calculate the weight of desired safety components (glass cockpit technology) and the effective arm down to 00.01" then couldn't you derive the lever down force on the instrument face. Am I missing something? The real issue ought to be a mechanism to improve placement of ribs F-1045-L & R along the firewall and incorporate mounting of the instrument panel and sunscreen to give the widest range of ergonomically placed and visually oriented safety equipment. It creates a conundrum on how Lancair was able to mount Randy's stuff so stylishly without engineering compromise. John From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos Napoli Subject: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Here is how I might make a rib mod. It might be overkill, however, unless I knew what the loads were I would have no choice but to replace the original strength. Niko 40188 ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:36 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" My post was the verbatim company mantra.... Forward of the sub panel "No touchy". Aft is not prohibited. Stein clarifies that the design goes back to the 20th century, does not reflect current aircraft instrumentation technology and led many previous builders to do what was needed - sing off tune. Even if on the wrong side of the Mason-Dixon line. You might say "McFly... McFly is anyone there?" but then we would have to modify for the Flux Capacitor too. You're the builder, make it work even if it requires work arounds. If you're still reading the music, then were on the verse that begins "the builder should read this section in its entirety before selecting equipment." Then attend OSH-05, the year of the RV-10 and smell the roses... I mean, see the forward thinking trends and decide which side of the century mark you want to embrace. I embrace the equipment to meet the mission and fit into my budget that's why the 10 is so darn attractive from many perspectives. Back to earning income to pay for that passion. John - $00.02 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Heh, heh. When you guys say "forward of the sub panel" you actually mean "aft of the sub panel", right? (i.e. toward the rear of the aircraft. . .) TDT do not archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Stein Bruch Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod --> RV10-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" Anyone on this list that built a slider RV6, 7 or 9 of past will recall exactly the same issues. In fact, a very large majority of anyone who put anything other than 2 instruments in their panel had to modify those ribs. The design is nearly identical, and the issue is nearly identical. It's been pretty common practice for quite a number of years now to modify those ribs FORWARD of the sub panel (not behind) to accommodate a variety of instruments - NOT just glass, which brings up the second subject...the sub panel itself. Give the depth of many radios, transponders, etc... sometimes people have to hack holes in the sub-panel as well. No nearly as big of a deal in the -10 because of the room, but the 3 panel ribs have the same issue the rest of the fleet has had for years. Anyone who put a radio stack in the center of the panel usually had to gently "modify" for that reason as well. Standard practice has pretty much become to do nearly exactly what Tim O did (or variation thereof). Van's may not openly endorse such practices, but that's what's happened over the years. If you build a panel like Van's does with nothing in it, it's not a problem, but the other 99% of us that put more than 4 gauges in the panel will end up dealing with it sooner or later in some form or another. Not saying any way is better than another to do the mods, but from a "strength" standpoint, Tim's ribs probably ended up stronger than the original, as did many who modified them in similar ways. Anyway, just my 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:00 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve From: "Greg Young" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Greg Young" Yeah, it's Photoshop. My guy's really good, particularly if I give him enough time. He even got me on this one. I had some concerns about the security of my hubcaps and when I saw the yellow wheels I thought I had lost one. I had to run out to the hangar and check (our office is next to my hangar.) He grabbed wheels from an ad and stuck them on it. Some of his other schemes are at http://oplnk.net/~gyoung/Navion-Pictures.htm Greg Do not archive > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > Tell me that's photoshop, not real!!!!!! Around the prop I > think I can tell it was altered....but man that's a good job! > Even has the right lighting effects! > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:07 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson And being that their attitude is that this is a great VFR X/C plane, I'd rather have them just think that happy little thought to theirselves rather than have them not make the kit in the first place. I suppose the liability aspect is probably the main driver in their motivations.....Flying IFR isn't really a small deal and does take lots of skill to do right without killing yourself. So, they sell a plane, make it a little tough to turn into a hard IFR plane, and then they can use the defense "well, it wasn't designed for that", whenever someone bites the dust. Make no mistake about it....we have 4 flying RV-10's already, but by the time we hit 1000 or two of them, I truly expect that at least one of them will have gone down in flames. It's just a statistical near-inevitability. I'll be hoping it isn't me, and you'll all probably be hoping the same thing.... (that it's not me. ;) ) Anyway, I can see how they possibly form their opinion...maybe. I don't feel that way myself. At least with today's instrumentation, you can still get an IFR panel in that space, as I'm trying to prove. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage DO NOT ARCHIVE Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote: > On the other hand, the design they had was fairly tried and true, and > they had hundreds of people chanting, "Ship us kits! Ship us kits!" > - so there are always compromises . . . > > TDT > > do not archive > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of James Ochs > Sent: Mon 6/13/2005 10:52 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: > RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod > > > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "James Ochs" > > I know it would be non-trivial, and I haven't really looked at how > that area goes together (still working on my HS) but maybe one way to > deal with it is to build some sort of truss, like with aluminum > tubing or with I beams or something other than the ribs, so that you > could get the same or better strength and use up less real estate. > > What are those ribs actually supporting? Just the glare shield and > instruments? Or are they taking some of the loading from the canopy > / firewall? > > I do have to say that Van's (the company in general) attitude towards > instrumentation is, in my opinion, short-sighted and unrealistic, > and is bordering on annoying the crap out of me ;) It seems that the > whole reason they put out the 10 is so that people could have a solid > x-country plane that carries passengers. This is going to obviate > the desire for IFR and new instrumentation. Even if they didn't > think about it to begin with, then I would think that enough > customers saying "hey, we can't get anything but the minimums for vfr > flight in the panel and this is a problem" would motivate them to > redesign or suggest ways to work around the current design. > > Do not archive > > James #40400 Countersinking the HS spars > > -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stein > Bruch Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:27 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" > > Anyone on this list that built a slider RV6, 7 or 9 of past will > recall exactly the same issues. In fact, a very large majority of > anyone who put anything other than 2 instruments in their panel had > to modify those ribs. The design is nearly identical, and the issue > is nearly identical. It's been pretty common practice for quite a > number of years now to modify those ribs FORWARD of the sub panel > (not behind) to accomodate a variety of instruments - NOT just glass, > which brings up the second subject...the sub panel itself. Give the > depth of many radios, transponders, etc... sometimes people have to > hack holes in the sub-panel as well. No nearly as big of a deal in > the -10 because of the room, but the 3 panel ribs have the same issue > the rest of the fleet has had for years. Anyone who put a radio > stack in the center of the panel usually had to gently "modify" for > that reason as well. > > Standard practice has pretty much become to do nearly exactly what > Tim O did (or variation thereof). Van's may not openly endorse such > practices, but that's what's happened over the years. If you build a > panel like Van's does with nothing in it, it's not a problem, but the > other 99% of us that put more than 4 gauges in the panel will end up > dealing with it sooner or later in some form or another. > > Not saying any way is better than another to do the mods, but from a > "strength" standpoint, Tim's ribs probably ended up stronger than the > original, as did many who modified them in similar ways. > > Anyway, just my 2 cents as usual! > > Cheers, Stein > > -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. > Cox Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 8:49 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod > > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" > > > "Removal of material from the F-1044 Center (Forward) Fuselage Rib > subassembly OR F-1045-Left (Forward) Fuselage Rib and Right (Forward) > Fuselage Rib is not allowed." There is no mention of the portion > AFT of said components. > > I interpret that to currently allow the builder to modify the aft > portions on F-1044 Center Subassembly towards the PIC at > F-1003C-Left, Center and Right from F-1068B Center going AFT on > F-1045L and from F-1068B R going AFT on F- 1045 Right would be > reasonably acceptable. Meaning that Tim's modification is within the > scope of current written instructions on Page 41-2 dated July 21, > 2004. Good news for pursuit of 21st Century instruments. > > I must still be missing something. > > On a second note: you can certainly read it that way and not pursue > room for Chelton, BMA, GRapids or other glass components while > keeping the music "On Key". It is a great discussion point and > demonstrates the value of this forum. > > > John - $00.02 > > ________________________________________ From: > owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim > Dawson-Townsend Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:06 PM To: > rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod > > Just browsing Chapter 41 of the fuse plans where it says not to > remove any material from any of these three ribs . . . > > TDT > > > ________________________________________ From: > owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of John W. Cox Sent: > Mon 6/13/2005 8:40 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: > RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Niko, your illustration drives home the > point and is most appreciated. However, your illustration shows an > actual cut in the lower diagonal edge into four independent and > separate elements. Tim's work introduced bends into this (diagonal > curved) edge without cuts clear through, which would decrease > strength yet his cuts were only on the vertical which were > effectively doubled back into the original rib vertical. There must > be a computer analysis that could computate the revised doubled > design with comparison to the original rib. We could calculate the > weight of desired safety components (glass cockpit technology) and > the effective arm down to 00.01" then couldn't you derive the lever > down force on the instrument face. > > Am I missing something? > > The real issue ought to be a mechanism to improve placement of ribs > F-1045-L & R along the firewall and incorporate mounting of the > instrument panel and sunscreen to give the widest range of > ergonomically placed and visually oriented safety equipment. It > creates a conundrum on how Lancair was able to mount Randy's stuff so > stylishly without engineering compromise. > > John > > ________________________________________ From: > owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos > Napoli Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 4:42 PM To: > rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod > > Here is how I might make a rib mod. It might be overkill, however, > unless I knew what the loads were I would have no choice but to > replace the original strength. > > Niko 40188 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==================================== > ==================================== > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:12 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve From: "John W. Cox" --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" My data shows that Greg had his graphic artist carefully remove the telltale N number from 5221K to protect the loyal owner of that green machine down in Texas. What say you Greg? Tim can tell it was the real photo not a variant cause of the lighting. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Tell me that's photoshop, not real!!!!!! Around the prop I think I can tell it was altered....but man that's a good job! Even has the right lighting effects! Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:46 PM PST US From: "Robin Wessel" Subject: RV10-List: RE: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS ....Autopilots. Yes, you have the theory right. The TruTrak is a great stand-alone way to still keep yourself alive, and when you couple the Digiflight with the Chelton (or GRT), you can then fly the ILS, because the Nav signal goes into the GRT/Chelton and then the GRT/Chelton runs the autopilot down the approach. If you don't get a GRT or Chelton though, you're right, you'll want the Sorcerer... which is why I initially went that route. I know at least one other list member was talked OUT of the sorcerer by TruTrak in favor of the DigiFlight for just this reason, so I have no reason to doubt it. I don't know what to say bout the yaw damper...never used one. Don't know how nice it would be...or necessary.. . . . I talked to peter at Direct2Avionics regarding their Chelton SV system. I am definitely intrigued by their EFIS system especially the synthetic vision, TSO grade SW and significantly higher resolution display (GRT is only 240 lines horizontal and does not Here are some the answers I got regarding their system (in my words not Direct2Avionics)- Q:Can the Chelton take the SL30 glideslope and convert it into VNAV guidance for the GPS? A:Currently their system does not support this functionality although you can get VNAV guidance via a GPS overlay or synthetic approach. So while the Chelton may give vertical guidance for a approach, it is not based on the glideslope. Peter at Direct2 said that it could be possible in a future SW release. -If and when the SW upgrade is provided, the Sorcerer A/P is probably the only way to get a true couple precision approach. I am not sure if a "synthetic" approach is as good a real ILS. Probably don't want to find out when breaking out at minimums (not that I ever do that on purpose anyway). Q:What about about SW updates for the Chelton? A:Chelton uses Jepp data for the database. Cost is slightly higher than Garmin and uses smartmedia cards programmed on your PC. Firmware upgrades are free as long as they do not require new HDW. -GRT is free but requires a IFR GPS that requires an update assuming you want to fly GPS approaches. Probably a wash. Q: Can the Chelton drive a GPS or MFD (i.e. drive an MX20 or program the flight plan of a 430) or can a IFR GPS drive the Chelton? A: No, the Chelton is a self contained FMS and uses its own GPS. -This puts a single screen Chelton w/IFR GPS out the running for a lower cost EFIS solution for IFR. Q: Is the EIS included in the system? A: The Chelton includes an Airdata module that is essentially a EIS minus the engine monitor features. -Need to add the cost of an engine monitor when comparing to GRT Q: What is the difference between the FAA approved SW and the experimental SW? A: The FAA approved SW does not include among other things the enhanced 3D terrain, WSI integration, and enhanced VNAV support. -Probably no big deal since the important parts of the code are likely isolated branches. Robin Wessel RV-10, wings and fuse Tigard, OR ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:43 PM PST US From: "brian bollaert" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Admitting a stupid mistake - rudder pedals --> RV10-List message posted by: "brian bollaert" Ha indeed i almost did that also , som a friend of mine was helping me that day and said i was putting them togeather the wrong way !! (saved me ) Brian B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" Subject: RV10-List: Admitting a stupid mistake - rudder pedals > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > If anyone else got confused by this, let me know so I don't > feel like such a moron.... > > So, I assembled my rudder pedals, and riveted them nicely. > primed in between the pedal and doubler, and decided I > wanted nice shiny silver pedals. So, I only painted the > "back" side. Which side is the back??? Well, of course, > the rudder pedal with it's raised edges will cup your shoe > of course, right? NOT!! Tonight I went to actually > bolt in those pedals. I found that things weren't looking > quite right per-plans. I thought perhaps the plans were > off....until I looked at Randy's photos (worth a million > bucks if you ask me). Sure as shinola those pedals go > in so that they do not cup your feet....the concave side > goes away from your foot. The thing that really confused > it is that they show the doubler riveted onto what > seemed to be the "back" side (really the front). So, my > nice round-head rivets were on the back of the pedal in > reality, and my foot would go on the shop head. Randy > didn't rivet his per plans, from what I can tell. He put > the doubler on the concave side of the pedal. This gives > a smoother looking pedal since it doesn't have that ridge > around the doubler in view. I see no issue with this. > So, I drilled out each one of those rivets, and now I have > to rivet them and paint them before I continue again...and > they won't be that shiny silver anymore, but will have to > match my interior paint. > > Oh well. Just thought I'd bring it up so that future > builders don't have to make that mistake. > > Am I the only one? > Tim > -- > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage > > ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:03 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: RE: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" I can certainly see the value in HITS (highway in the sky), but I can't get really excited about the synthetic terrain, unless I'm trying to drop a bomb on a SAM site on the other side of a ridge . . . If you're flying IFR, and you keep it in the HITS pathway, then you are ipso facto clear of terrain. And if you do wander off, a "flat" terrain depiction (TAWS-like) does just as well or better at showing you where you are and where you need to not be . . . TDT ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robin Wessel Subject: RV10-List: RE: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS ....Autopilots. Yes, you have the theory right. The TruTrak is a great stand-alone way to still keep yourself alive, and when you couple the Digiflight with the Chelton (or GRT), you can then fly the ILS, because the Nav signal goes into the GRT/Chelton and then the GRT/Chelton runs the autopilot down the approach. If you don't get a GRT or Chelton though, you're right, you'll want the Sorcerer... which is why I initially went that route. I know at least one other list member was talked OUT of the sorcerer by TruTrak in favor of the DigiFlight for just this reason, so I have no reason to doubt it. I don't know what to say bout the yaw damper...never used one. Don't know how nice it would be...or necessary.. . . . I talked to peter at Direct2Avionics regarding their Chelton SV system. I am definitely intrigued by their EFIS system especially the synthetic vision, TSO grade SW and significantly higher resolution display (GRT is only 240 lines horizontal and does not Here are some the answers I got regarding their system (in my words not Direct2Avionics)- Q:Can the Chelton take the SL30 glideslope and convert it into VNAV guidance for the GPS? A:Currently their system does not support this functionality although you can get VNAV guidance via a GPS overlay or synthetic approach. So while the Chelton may give vertical guidance for a approach, it is not based on the glideslope. Peter at Direct2 said that it could be possible in a future SW release. -If and when the SW upgrade is provided, the Sorcerer A/P is probably the only way to get a true couple precision approach. I am not sure if a "synthetic" approach is as good a real ILS. Probably don't want to find out when breaking out at minimums (not that I ever do that on purpose anyway). Q:What about about SW updates for the Chelton? A:Chelton uses Jepp data for the database. Cost is slightly higher than Garmin and uses smartmedia cards programmed on your PC. Firmware upgrades are free as long as they do not require new HDW. -GRT is free but requires a IFR GPS that requires an update assuming you want to fly GPS approaches. Probably a wash. Q: Can the Chelton drive a GPS or MFD (i.e. drive an MX20 or program the flight plan of a 430) or can a IFR GPS drive the Chelton? A: No, the Chelton is a self contained FMS and uses its own GPS. -This puts a single screen Chelton w/IFR GPS out the running for a lower cost EFIS solution for IFR. Q: Is the EIS included in the system? A: The Chelton includes an Airdata module that is essentially a EIS minus the engine monitor features. -Need to add the cost of an engine monitor when comparing to GRT Q: What is the difference between the FAA approved SW and the experimental SW? A: The FAA approved SW does not include among other things the enhanced 3D terrain, WSI integration, and enhanced VNAV support. -Probably no big deal since the important parts of the code are likely isolated branches. Robin Wessel RV-10, wings and fuse Tigard, OR ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:23 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Interior Painting / Andair Fuel Valve --> RV10-List message posted by: "Greg Young" What can I say? I've got a bunch of sets of vinyl overlays so I can change the scheme to suit my mood. It's part of my pre-flight to pick the scheme-du-jour;-) Greg > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" > > > My data shows that Greg had his graphic artist carefully > remove the telltale N number from 5221K to protect the loyal > owner of that green machine down in Texas. What say you > Greg? Tim can tell it was the real photo not a variant cause > of the lighting. > > John > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > Tell me that's photoshop, not real!!!!!! Around the prop I > think I can tell it was altered....but man that's a good job! > Even has the right lighting effects! > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:04 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod James Ochs wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "James Ochs" > > I know it would be non-trivial, and I haven't really looked at how that area > goes together (still working on my HS) but maybe one way to deal with it is > to build some sort of truss, like with aluminum tubing or with I beams or > something other than the ribs, so that you could get the same or better > strength and use up less real estate. > When you get there, you'll see that this above idea although good structural thinking, is probably way overkill. > What are those ribs actually supporting? Just the glare shield and > instruments? Or are they taking some of the loading from the canopy / > firewall? Basically just the glareshield and instruments, and even there, it's not really supporting it as much as it is acting as a rib to keep the top of the glareshield formed properly. The canopy loads are through the fiberglass areas on the sides of the windshields, and the metal bar to the top of the canopy, through the center rib, not these outer ones. I attached probably the crappiest drawing I've ever done on a PC to show you the side view of some other things that are all tied in on this. The panen itself helps support the rib. The lower subpanel under the panel helps support the panel. The skin itself will provide a lot of support for the panel Actually, you could probably mount that panel without any of the ribs, only the skin and the lower subpanel, and you'd probably have plenty of support for the panel itself until something pretty catastrophic happened....something that would crush the entire top of the canopy. I don't buy the "all modifications should be approved by Van's" thing. While I even agree with them on powerplant logic for the most part, I think that they are not very likely to approve much of anything that they would be predisposed against in the first place. How many times do we have to hear that people don't need all those instruments.... This whole mod is actually so insignificant from what I can see that it's just not worth lots of time and effort to try to systematically prove it. That would be like trying to prove that the RV-10 is capable of 8 G's.....sure, it might be, by why do I care if my entire flying time in it will be less than 3. Or, consider that I'm not putting a 5 point harness in the rear seat, but going to do a 4 point instead. How can I prove that a 4 will handle a 15 G crash with a 250lb man. Sure, it's mathematically do-able, but is it seriously something I care to pursue? And what if it only handled 12 G's? Again, I'm not suggesting anyone do this mod, or use anything I say about it. Just look at the pretty pictures and when you get to that stage yourself, think about what you feel is reasonable. If you feel you should call Van's for approval, go ahead and do it, and please post the response to the list. I myself am just very happy with how this turned out, and even if I could go back tomorrow and add structure here and there and make it twice as strong, for as strong as it is now, I don't see the point. Like I said, it seems much stronger than the original. .jpg below Tim do not archive ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:25 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I'm BCC'in Josh and Direct2Avionics on this one so that he can follow the questions and clarify if possible. I'll report back what he says. My comments are inline. Robin Wessel wrote: > ....Autopilots. Yes, you have the theory right. The TruTrak is a > great > > stand-alone way to still keep yourself alive, and when you couple > > the Digiflight with the Chelton (or GRT), you can then fly the ILS, > > because the Nav signal goes into the GRT/Chelton and then the > > GRT/Chelton runs the autopilot down the approach. If you don't > > get a GRT or Chelton though, you're right, you'll want the > Sorcerer... > > which is why I initially went that route. I know at least one other > > list member was talked OUT of the sorcerer by TruTrak in favor of > > the DigiFlight for just this reason, so I have no reason to doubt it. > > > I don't know what to say bout the yaw damper...never used one. Don't > > > know how nice it would be...or necessary.. . . . > > > > > > I talked to peter at Direct2Avionics regarding their Chelton SV > system. I am definitely intrigued by their EFIS system especially the > synthetic vision, TSO grade SW and significantly higher resolution > display (GRT is only 240 lines horizontal and does not > > > > Here are some the answers I got regarding their system (in my words > not Direct2Avionics)- > > > > Q:Can the Chelton take the SL30 glideslope and convert it into VNAV > guidance for the GPS? > > > > A:Currently their system does not support this functionality although > you can get VNAV guidance via a GPS overlay or synthetic approach. > So while the Chelton may give vertical guidance for a approach, it is > not based on the glideslope. Peter at Direct2 said that it could be > possible in a future SW release. > > Hold the phone.... Why are you referring to "into VNAV guidance for the GPS"? Where does this come into play?? I'm not concerned if it can take ILS glideslope data and use it for a GPS approach. I want it to take the ILS glideslope and display it as a pair of needles. That it will do. What it won't do is let you fly a non-GPS overlaid approach, using the HITS boxes. i.e. when you fly an ILS, you need to use the needles, not the boxes. Is this your understanding, or what am I missing? > > -If and when the SW upgrade is provided, the Sorcerer A/P is > probably the only way to get a true couple precision approach. I am > not sure if a "synthetic" approach is as good a real ILS. Probably > don't want to find out when breaking out at minimums (not that I ever > do that on purpose anyway). > > Precision approach meaning GPS WAAS, or ILS? It should be able to do an ILS right now, with the Digiflight II VSGV. If this isn't true, I'd sure like to hear where I was mistaken from what was said previously. > > Q:What about about SW updates for the Chelton? > > > > A:Chelton uses Jepp data for the database. Cost is slightly higher > than Garmin and uses smartmedia cards programmed on your PC. Firmware > upgrades are free as long as they do not require new HDW. > > > > -GRT is free but requires a IFR GPS that requires an update assuming > you want to fly GPS approaches. Probably a wash. > > Correct there. The Chelton system will actually run you quite a bit more money for updates than, say, a GNS-480. The thing is, you're getting terrain and nav data updates for a more sophisticated system. > > Q: Can the Chelton drive a GPS or MFD (i.e. drive an MX20 or program > the flight plan of a 430) or can a IFR GPS drive the Chelton? > > A: No, the Chelton is a self contained FMS and uses its own GPS. > > Accurate as to what I was told. The only real radios it interoperates with from a "programming" standpoint are the SL-30 and SL-40. Why would you want to program your flight plan in the 430 though, when the chelton has it's own flight planning system in it. If you own a Chelton, you'll probably do it there anyway. As for the GPS driving the Chelton, I am not sure how to put this in an understandable way, but I believe the GNS480 and FreeFlight GPS can provide the necessary legal precision GPS data to the Chelton to allow you to fly your WAAS approach. If this is not true, then again, I would like to clarify where this does not fit with what I was told previously. If this is not true, it would make no sense to even add the GNS480 thinking you get WAAS legal capability in the system...which doesn't jibe with what was told to me earlier. But yes, it does have it's own GPS. > > -This puts a single screen Chelton w/IFR GPS out the running for a > lower cost EFIS solution for IFR. > Lets see if i get a respons to the point directly above this one. > > > Q: Is the EIS included in the system? > > > > A: The Chelton includes an Airdata module that is essentially a EIS > minus the engine monitor features. > > > > -Need to add the cost of an engine monitor when comparing to GRT > Correct, you get the GRT EIS, sold as a unit for use with the Chelton, so you get all the necessary programming and probes to make it all work. It's the same EIS basically that the GRT uses. And, as a plug for Rob, he says by OSH 2005 he will have his interface ready for interoperability with the Chelton too. > > > Q: What is the difference between the FAA approved SW and the > experimental SW? > > > > A: The FAA approved SW does not include among other things the > enhanced 3D terrain, WSI integration, and enhanced VNAV support. > > > > -Probably no big deal since the important parts of the code are > likely isolated branches. > > Probably easier to test some of those add-ons in a non-certified version...makes sense. I'm sure they'll show up on all models eventually. Thanks for bringing this thread back Robin. You bring up some good points and concerns that are a little scary considering you got your info from the same company I did. Now I'd like to get further clarification so that we can know the 100% answer. Josh, can you drop me a line after you read this? Tim > > > > Robin Wessel > > RV-10, wings and fuse > > Tigard, OR > > ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:41 PM PST US From: "DejaVu" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Admitting a stupid mistake - rudder pedals --> RV10-List message posted by: "DejaVu" Just checked the instructions and they show the doublers on the same side as the master cylinders. A good idea to put them behind the brake pedals so that your feet make contact with the pedals and not the doublers. I think it's cosmetic and I'm leaving them because they're shiny! Anh #141 ----- Original Message ----- From: "brian bollaert" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Admitting a stupid mistake - rudder pedals > --> RV10-List message posted by: "brian bollaert" > > Ha indeed i almost did that also , som a friend of mine was helping me that > day and said i was putting them togeather the wrong way !! (saved me ) > > Brian B > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim Olson" > To: "RV10" > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:41 PM > Subject: RV10-List: Admitting a stupid mistake - rudder pedals > > > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > > > If anyone else got confused by this, let me know so I don't > > feel like such a moron.... > > > > So, I assembled my rudder pedals, and riveted them nicely. > > primed in between the pedal and doubler, and decided I > > wanted nice shiny silver pedals. So, I only painted the > > "back" side. Which side is the back??? Well, of course, > > the rudder pedal with it's raised edges will cup your shoe > > of course, right? NOT!! Tonight I went to actually > > bolt in those pedals. I found that things weren't looking > > quite right per-plans. I thought perhaps the plans were > > off....until I looked at Randy's photos (worth a million > > bucks if you ask me). Sure as shinola those pedals go > > in so that they do not cup your feet....the concave side > > goes away from your foot. The thing that really confused > > it is that they show the doubler riveted onto what > > seemed to be the "back" side (really the front). So, my > > nice round-head rivets were on the back of the pedal in > > reality, and my foot would go on the shop head. Randy > > didn't rivet his per plans, from what I can tell. He put > > the doubler on the concave side of the pedal. This gives > > a smoother looking pedal since it doesn't have that ridge > > around the doubler in view. I see no issue with this. > > So, I drilled out each one of those rivets, and now I have > > to rivet them and paint them before I continue again...and > > they won't be that shiny silver anymore, but will have to > > match my interior paint. > > > > Oh well. Just thought I'd bring it up so that future > > builders don't have to make that mistake. > > > > Am I the only one? > > Tim > > -- > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > > Current project: Fuselage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > --- ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:35 PM PST US From: "Robin Wessel" Subject: RV10-List: Re: RE: Chelton Panels, Autopilots, and GPS Hold the phone.... Why are you referring to "into VNAV guidance for the GPS"? Where does this come into play?? I'm not concerned if it can take ILS glideslope data and use it for a GPS approach. I want it to take the ILS glideslope and display it as a pair of needles. That it will do. What it won't do is let you fly a non-GPS overlaid approach, using the HITS boxes. i.e. when you fly an ILS, you need to use the needles, not the boxes. Is this your understanding, or what am I missing? Tim- Sorry if I was not clear in my comments about the VNAV guidance with the Chelton. What I should have said is "VNAV guidance for the A/P." As you know, the Digiflight A/P can only steer based on NMEA and ARINC signals not analog +/-150mV signals. I was really hoping that the Chelton would convert the SL30 glideslope data coming in digitally and convert it into VNAV commands for the Digiflight. This would eliminate the need for the expensive Sorcerer in order to get a true coupled ILS. As a credit to Peter at Direct2avioncs, he felt that adding this capability would be something to consider. Hopefully by the time I need to plunk down the cash, this capability will be included. robin