Today's Message Index:
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1. 06:42 AM - Re: Panel Rib Mod (Chris)
2. 08:12 AM - Oil Cooler Assembly - Tight Rivet (DejaVu)
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Rib Mod |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris" <toaster73@earthlink.net>
What is a Red Sox????? Who is David Ortiz or Johnny Damon???
-Chris L
#40072
;>)
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@avidyne.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod
Chris:
Let's let this thread die. I think it's been beat enough this week.
How 'bout them Red Sox? (hmm - Maybe we should paint portraits of David
Ortiz and Johnny Damon on the side of our plane . . .)
TDT
40025
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Chris
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris" <toaster73@earthlink.net>
I'll keep this thread going. I am still on the wings until October probably.
Slow build all the way. I have not really looked at how all this area goes
together but could it perhaps be the intention of the designer (Van's) to be
part of a "crumple zone" such that any over design will impart too much
force thereby not letting the panel give when you hit it in a crash? Maybe
they want it only "so" strong.
Chris Lucas
#40072
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
>
> Wow, this thread just keeps going, doesn't it!? When the first two planes
> (one with the rib changed and one with the original) in the same way at
> the
> same speed we will all know the better way to do it. In the mean time,
> like
> everything else with the aircraft, if you're comfortable with it after
> reading the volumes that have been written here about it, go for it. We
> modified our sied panel ribs and removed most of the meat from the
> sub-panel
> and I believe that section of the airplane is stronger now than it would
> have been. It certainly makes it a lot easier to work with everything
> back
> there both now and after we have the thing flying.
>
> This is definitely the year of the -10. the first 6 flying within 1 month
> of each other. Yesterday was the 14th and the first one flew on the 14th.
> Not bad for a bunch of amateurs (I do include myself there and none of you
> are included if you are either offended by that or are, in fact, not an
> amateur).
>
> Keep 'em going. This thing looks great and hopefully flies even
> great...er.
>
> N256H #40241
>
> Jesse Saint
> I-TEC, Inc.
> jesse@itecusa.org
> www.itecusa.org
> W: 352-465-4545
> C: 352-427-0285
> F: 815-377-3694
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 3:07 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
>
> C'mon, don't be shy......
>
> <snip>
> "When you two figure this out, PLEASE let us know the result. I think
> we are all cutting these in some form or other and an example, even
> though not the same, since all panels will differ, will certainly
> benefit all. If there is an excel spreadsheet that can help out, that
> would be icing on the cake.
>
> John Jessen
> (beginning to like Chilton's, darn)"
> </snip>
>
> (Just had to give you a little ribbin')
>
> Tim
>
>
> John Jessen wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
>>
>> Might have been John Cox who had expressed some concerns. Not me. I
>> already know the radios will fall into your lap as soon as the first 2g
> turn
>> happens!!!!! :-)
>>
>> John Jessen
>> (can't get enough of the sound of a rivet being squeezed)
>>
>> Do not archive
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
>> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:35 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod
>>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>>
>> Hey, great discussion guys!! Now, I completely understand what you're
>> trying to get across Niko, so please don't think that this is meant to be
>> defensive....and I definitely understand that you know more about this
> than
>> I do in the terms of the book knowledge. I don't know if you've actually
>> had your hands on this panel area yet, so forgive me if I assume you
>> haven't.
>>
>> John, I don't exactly know how that paragraph is intended to be read, but
>> you may have a point on the use of the word "forward".
>>
>> Tim, (Mr. TDT), you might not have read my page that had these photos on
> it,
>> but I specifically mentioned the plans state that this isn't "allowed"
> (but
>> Johns dissemenation may disagree with that). In fact, that's why I added
>> photos of the plans that people could read. I wanted to make sure people
>> understood that this may not sit well with Van's.
>>
>> I got home tonight and went straight for this panel to look at the
>> modification closer. First, you should all by now understand and assume
>> that anything I spew forth should be taken as my opinion only, and trust
> the
>> judgment as you wish. I'm not professing to be an expert on pretty much
> any
>> of this project. But, let me tell you what I noticed when I looked at
> this.
>>
>> As I mentioned in my previous post, this aluminum angle is much thicker
> and
>> stiffer than the original rib aluminum. And although Niko pointed out
> that
>> there those angles with the cuts in them will prove to be a weaker link,
>> I
>> don't believe it's nearly as serious as one might.
>> For one thing, Johns point that I did not cut through the aluminum does
> mean
>> that it would take some added force to break that bend where each segment
>> comes together. Not just a little force, but considering that it has
> another
>> half of the angle riveted to the rib, it would be a pretty extrordinary
>> force....not general use, but a crash.
>> So, I looked at how the overall structure was. They use pretty flimsy
> metal
>> in all of those ribs, and the sub-panel. Not very stiff at all. When I
>> pushed, pulled, tugged, bent and yanked on this upper rib, it always
> stayed
>> nice and solid on the skinny, rearward portion of the rib. Almost no
>> movement at all....with it being
>> VERY solid....all the way back to the sub panel. Then, at the point
>> where the angles I added meet the sub panel and the rib is back to full
>> size, you do not have that added thickness of the .063 angle.
>> As it turns out, all of my forces were easily able to deform (non
>> destructively) and bend and twist that taller forward portion of the rib.
>> Not because of some flaw in the modification, but because that rib is
>> very
>> thin and flimsy on its own. It would be a heck of a lot tougher if the
>> angle I added were added to the forward portion of the rib also.
>>
>> So, from my non-scientific, non-manthematical, non-engineering viewpoint,
> I
>> truly think that my modified rib would actually hold up better than the
>> original rib would. In fact, if the panel top were a table, I'd bet that
> I
>> could put more weight on it before that rib bent than before. When it
> bent,
>> I can tell you where it would bend too....right at that subpanel.
>> You can just feel it when you wiggle the darn thing.
>>
>> So, this isn't some "in your face" reply....please don't take it as that,
> as
>> I know sometimes people interpret emotion differently than intended in
>> email. But, despite the truly logical, well thought out, calculated and
>> scientific drawings that Niko did, I'm very happy with how the
> modification
>> turned out and I personally have no concerns. I only wish that this
> wasn't
>> just an email group, but you guys could come yank and bend it around for
>> yourself.
>>
>> So John Jessen, I know from your reply that you have concerns, and I'm
>> not
>> saying you should take my advice, but I just want to ease your mind that
>> I
>> don't think this is as big a problem as it is sounding like. Sure, from
> an
>> engineering standpoint it isn't perfect....but I personally feel it will
>> hold up fantastically, especially when you consider that you are going to
> be
>> adding a lot of stiffness to the structure when you screw the flat panel
> and
>> lower subpanel in and connect that rib to the panel.
>> Think about it, when that panel is in place, the lower edge is secured by
>> the fuselage sides, and if you want to bend that rib down, you're going
>> to
>> have to A) Fold your panel by squashing it vertically, or B) squash your
>> fuselage inward from side to side by crushing it in a crash. This thing
>> isn't going anywhere unless you have a major major accident, either way,
> and
>> in that accident, there would be a lot of other structure that would be
> much
>> more worrysome than this little panel rib.
>>
>> Great discussion though. Keep adding to it as you wish. Thanks Niko for
>> taking the time to draw all of that out. It's valuable
>> for everone to see. Do note that I didn't cut all the way thru
>> those aluminum angles though.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
>>
>>
>> John W. Cox wrote:
>>
>>>--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox"
>>><johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>>>
>>>"Removal of material from the F-1044 Center (Forward) Fuselage Rib
>>>subassembly OR F-1045-Left (Forward) Fuselage Rib and Right (Forward)
>>>Fuselage Rib is not allowed." There is no mention of the portion AFT
>>>of said components.
>>>
>>>I interpret that to currently allow the builder to modify the aft
>>>portions on F-1044 Center Subassembly towards the PIC at F-1003C-Left,
>>>Center and Right from F-1068B Center going AFT on F-1045L and from
>>>F-1068B R going AFT on F- 1045 Right would be reasonably acceptable.
>>>Meaning that Tim's modification is within the scope of current written
>>>instructions on Page 41-2 dated July 21, 2004. Good news for pursuit
>>>of 21st Century instruments.
>>>
>>>I must still be missing something.
>>>
>>>On a second note: you can certainly read it that way and not pursue
>>>room for Chelton, BMA, GRapids or other glass components while keeping
>>>the music "On Key". It is a great discussion point and demonstrates
>>>the value of this forum.
>>>
>>>
>>>John - $00.02
>>>
>>>________________________________________ From:
>>>owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
>>>Dawson-Townsend Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:06 PM To:
>>>rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod
>>>
>>>Just browsing Chapter 41 of the fuse plans where it says not to remove
>>>any material from any of these three ribs . . .
>>>
>>>TDT
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________________ From:
>>>owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of John W. Cox Sent:
>>>Mon 6/13/2005 8:40 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE:
>>>RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod Niko, your illustration drives home the point
>>>and is most appreciated. However, your illustration shows an actual
>>>cut in the lower diagonal edge into four independent and separate
>>>elements. Tim's work introduced bends into this (diagonal
>>>curved) edge without cuts clear through, which would decrease strength
>>>yet his cuts were only on the vertical which were effectively doubled
>>>back into the original rib vertical. There must be a computer
>>>analysis that could computate the revised doubled design with
>>>comparison to the original rib. We could calculate the weight of
>>>desired safety components (glass cockpit technology) and the effective
>>>arm down to 00.01" then couldn't you derive the lever down force on
>>>the instrument face.
>>>
>>>Am I missing something?
>>>
>>>The real issue ought to be a mechanism to improve placement of ribs
>>>F-1045-L & R along the firewall and incorporate mounting of the
>>>instrument panel and sunscreen to give the widest range of
>>>ergonomically placed and visually oriented safety equipment. It
>>>creates a conundrum on how Lancair was able to mount Randy's stuff so
>>>stylishly without engineering compromise.
>>>
>>>John
>>>
>>>________________________________________ From:
>>>owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos
>>>Napoli Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 4:42 PM To:
>>>rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: Panel Rib Mod
>>>
>>>Here is how I might make a rib mod. It might be overkill, however,
>>>unless I knew what the loads were I would have no choice but to
>>>replace the original strength.
>>>
>>>Niko 40188
>>>
>>>
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Oil Cooler Assembly - Tight Rivet |
1.67 SARE_ADLTSUB2 Contains possible adult words
The flange on the oil cooler assembly is in the way to dimple or rivet the one
right above it to the firewall. Can't pop-dimple it. How have others done it?
Anh
#141
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