Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:21 AM - Re: Build tanks dry??? (Jim Combs)
2. 04:23 AM - Re: Re: W&B (Jim Combs)
3. 04:34 AM - Re: Build tanks dry??? (Jim Wade)
4. 06:48 AM - Re: Build tanks dry??? (linn walters)
5. 08:25 AM - Re: Build tanks dry??? (Albert Gardner)
6. 08:53 AM - Re: Build tanks dry??? (John Jessen)
7. 09:17 AM - LED nav lts (Noel & Yoshie Simmons)
8. 09:50 AM - Re: Build tanks dry??? (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
9. 10:03 AM - AN Bolt Torque questions. (Deems Davis)
10. 10:29 AM - Re: LED nav lts (Tim Olson)
11. 10:31 AM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (Tim Olson)
12. 10:34 AM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (Jeff Carpenter)
13. 10:38 AM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (Randy DeBauw)
14. 10:43 AM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com)
15. 10:55 AM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
16. 10:57 AM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
17. 10:59 AM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (John Jessen)
18. 11:33 AM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (John W. Cox)
19. 11:42 AM - Torque (John Hasbrouck)
20. 11:53 AM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (linn walters)
21. 12:21 PM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com)
22. 12:31 PM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. THANKS (Deems Davis)
23. 12:45 PM - Re: Torque (Jesse Saint)
24. 12:51 PM - Re: RV builders (Scott Schmidt)
25. 01:37 PM - Re: Torque (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com)
26. 01:56 PM - Empcone question (James Hein)
27. 02:10 PM - Re: Empcone question (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
28. 02:13 PM - Re: Torque (John W. Cox)
29. 03:40 PM - Re: Empcone question (Indran Chelvanayagam)
30. 03:47 PM - Re: Empcone question (Randy DeBauw)
31. 04:15 PM - Re: Empcone question (James Hein)
32. 04:31 PM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (Marcus Cooper)
33. 04:46 PM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (LIKE2LOOP@aol.com)
34. 04:46 PM - Re: Empcone question, rudder cable fairings (Deems Davis)
35. 04:51 PM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (McGANN, Ron)
36. 04:54 PM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (linn walters)
37. 04:59 PM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (linn walters)
38. 05:00 PM - Re: Re: W&B (Rick)
39. 05:02 PM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (McGANN, Ron)
40. 05:20 PM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (Rick)
41. 05:41 PM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (Rick)
42. 05:45 PM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (Rick)
43. 05:52 PM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (Jim Combs)
44. 06:51 PM - thought (Robert G. Wright)
45. 07:19 PM - Re: Empcone question (Raysrv8a@aol.com)
46. 07:30 PM - Re: Build tanks dry??? (Mark Grieve)
47. 07:34 PM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (Dave)
48. 07:49 PM - Re: Empcone question, rudder cable fairings (Tim Olson)
49. 07:53 PM - Re: Torque (Richard Sipp)
50. 08:26 PM - Re: Torque (linn walters)
51. 08:28 PM - Re: Empcone question, rudder cable fairings (Deems Davis)
52. 08:46 PM - Re: thought (bob.kaufmann)
53. 08:47 PM - Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. (bob.kaufmann)
54. 09:01 PM - Re: Torque (Dean Van Winkle)
55. 09:11 PM - Re: Torque (Rick)
56. 09:22 PM - Re: Build tanks dry??? (Rick)
57. 10:14 PM - Re: Torque (Jim Beyer)
58. 10:28 PM - Re: Torque (Jim Beyer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Build tanks dry??? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jim Combs" <jimc@mail.infra-read.com>
Excellent!
I was not able to find toluent at the local "BIG" home improvement store. Where
I will try a paint store.
Thanks, Jim C
Do Not Archive
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "McGANN, Ron" <ron.mcgann@baesystems.com>
Jim,
See the link below about thinning tank sealant. Use toluene.
<http://www.vansairforce.net/articles/tank_sealant.pdf>
cheers,
Ron
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Combs
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Build tanks dry???
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jim Combs" <jimc@mail.infra-read.com>
A while back, someone on the list proposed thinning the tank sealant with MEK.
While MEK is really nasty, it does work really well to thin out the tank sealant.
(ie. do this outside with LOTS of ventillation).
I tried this with my flap trailing edges. Mixed in some MEK to the point where
I could suck it up with a $1.69 syringe from the pharmacy. It made dispensing
the stuff a whole lot easier and net nearly as messy. The joints were easlily
riveted and the excess tank sealant readily squeezed out. It harded up as
if I had not cut it with the MEK.
The syringe was tossed, but it made the process really easy. The stuff was still
plenty sticky. Once the syringe was loaded, I covered the unused stuff. No
nasty odors to deal with.
I would really like to know if there is something other than MEK that can be used
to thin the tank sealant.
I plan on doing the same with the tanks. I will know soon how well this works
on the tank.
My opinion FWIW, would be to build the tanks with sealant between the ribs and
skin. Just thin some of it to make it easier to work with.
Jim Combs
#40192
N312F
====================================
====================================
Message 2
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jim Combs" <jimc@mail.infra-read.com>
Yes, That would be a good piece of information to have. At this point, Vans is
past that point of being able to collect those numbers.
Someone in this group should be able to do that. I am not quite there yet.
Jim C
Do Not Archive
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@avidyne.com>
Say, wouldn't it nice if Van's furnished the W&B information for an empty RV-10
shell, and then we could do some advance calculations, moving batteries and ascessories
here and there to set ourselves up for a good c.g. location? Or at
least the W&B of empty shell + IO-540.
Right now it seems a little like a guessing game with one's particular configuration.
Then the rubber meeets the road when you put it on the scales . . .
TDT
40025
Do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Build tanks dry??? |
Great info guys. I Wanted to do mine the Van's way, just need info to give
my friend. I think this will do it. Thanks a bunch.
Jim
-------Original Message-------
From: McGANN, Ron
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Build tanks dry???
Jim,
See the link below about thinning tank sealant. Use toluene.
<http://www.vansairforce.net/articles/tank_sealant.pdf>
cheers,
Ron
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Combs
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Build tanks dry???
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jim Combs" <jimc@mail.infra-read.com>
A while back, someone on the list proposed thinning the tank sealant with
MEK. While MEK is really nasty, it does work really well to thin out the
tank sealant. (ie. do this outside with LOTS of ventillation).
I tried this with my flap trailing edges. Mixed in some MEK to the point
where I could suck it up with a $1.69 syringe from the pharmacy. It made
dispensing the stuff a whole lot easier and net nearly as messy. The joints
were easlily riveted and the excess tank sealant readily squeezed out. It
harded up as if I had not cut it with the MEK.
The syringe was tossed, but it made the process really easy. The stuff was
still plenty sticky. Once the syringe was loaded, I covered the unused
stuff. No nasty odors to deal with.
I would really like to know if there is something other than MEK that can be
used to thin the tank sealant.
I plan on doing the same with the tanks. I will know soon how well this
works on the tank.
My opinion FWIW, would be to build the tanks with sealant between the ribs
and skin. Just thin some of it to make it easier to work with.
Jim Combs
#40192
N312F
browse Subscriptions page, Chat, FAQ,
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Build tanks dry??? |
RAS wrote:
> Build your tanks wet and stick with Van's instructions. I have a small
> leak with wet built tanks on my RV7 which I'm going to fix today as a
> matter of fact. The cutting of access holes in the back will only be
> another source for a potential leak. So is every rivet hole.
>
> I would change friends or build the tanks wet. It's messy and it's
> smelly that's all. Get a good quantity of MEK and mix proseal in small
> batches, you'll be fine.
>
> Marcel
Hmmm. After reading a post that toluene is preferred for thinning .....
wouldn't that be a better cleanup liquid too? Wonder what the
biohazards are for Toluene Vs. MEK???
Linn
do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Build tanks dry??? |
There are a number of builders that have put the tanks together using
proseal but left clecos in until the proseal set up, then set the
rivets-first inserting a small dab of proseal into the hole. I have used
this method after building the first tank wet and like it much better.
Albert Gardner
10-422
Yuma, AZ
Message 6
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| Subject: | Build tanks dry??? |
You are able to get the clecos out, okay?
John Jessen
(Starting the HS)
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert Gardner
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Build tanks dry???
There are a number of builders that have put the tanks together using
proseal but left clecos in until the proseal set up, then set the
rivets-first inserting a small dab of proseal into the hole. I have used
this method after building the first tank wet and like it much better.
Albert Gardner
10-422
Yuma, AZ
Message 7
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Any one have a set of the led nav lts? I need to know the resistor rating.
Lost mine (ouch). Colors one the resistor will work just fine.
Thank you
Noel
406-538-6574
Message 8
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| Subject: | Build tanks dry??? |
I would not recommend doing it this way. Butter the ribs lightly, and as
you are riveting watch some squeeze out, if you wait until it is dry
then there will be no movement and if you have a larger pocket of
proseal, the cleco will lengthen to fit, but not draw as tight as a
rivet will.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert
Gardner
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Build tanks dry???
There are a number of builders that have put the tanks together using
proseal but left clecos in until the proseal set up, then set the
rivets-first inserting a small dab of proseal into the hole. I have used
this method after building the first tank wet and like it much better.
Albert Gardner
10-422
Yuma, AZ
Message 9
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| Subject: | AN Bolt Torque questions. |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
I'm installing the bolts and h/w in the end of the tailcone. The Manual
says that all AN3 bolts should be torqued to 20-25 inch pounds of
torque. I've never used a torque wrench before, just used muscle to
tighten nuts and bolts up until they felt pretty tight. When I install
these and reach the 20-25 mark, it seems as though they could be
tighter. The Torque wrench 'trips' just past the point where the bolt
head seats against the material and the nut is also fully seated. I just
want to make sure that this is OK, if I was doing this on my own
without the torque wrench I'd probably have put another couple of
clinches on it. Just want somebody to verify that it's not necessary to
over tighten these
Deems Davis
#406 tailcone
http://www.deemsrv10.com
Message 10
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I just got a notice that mine shipped. I'll have them in a few days
and can let you know, if nobody else fills you in.
I got the CreativAir/KillaCycle (bought from Killacycle) LED
kit...RV style. I also got the creativair (from Creativair)
strobe power supply, and the wire and bulbs from something
like strobes-n-more or whatever. (combo strobe/light from Vans)
Tim
Noel & Yoshie Simmons wrote:
> Any one have a set of the led nav lts? I need to know the resistor
> rating. Lost mine (ouch). Colors one the resistor will work just fine.
>
>
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> Noel
>
> 406-538-6574
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I wondered the same thing. It seems like the Van's recommended
torque specs are lower than what I'd expect. Wasn't there a thread
about a year ago about this? I thought someone said that there
are other torque specs that are more common that are higher.
I don't know if I remember right though. I just did mine per
the torque specs in Van's manual section 5.
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
Deems Davis wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
>
> I'm installing the bolts and h/w in the end of the tailcone. The Manual
> says that all AN3 bolts should be torqued to 20-25 inch pounds of
> torque. I've never used a torque wrench before, just used muscle to
> tighten nuts and bolts up until they felt pretty tight. When I install
> these and reach the 20-25 mark, it seems as though they could be
> tighter. The Torque wrench 'trips' just past the point where the bolt
> head seats against the material and the nut is also fully seated. I just
> want to make sure that this is OK, if I was doing this on my own
> without the torque wrench I'd probably have put another couple of
> clinches on it. Just want somebody to verify that it's not necessary to
> over tighten these
>
> Deems Davis
> #406 tailcone
> http://www.deemsrv10.com
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Jeff Carpenter <jeff@westcottpress.com>
Hi Deems,
That sounds just like my bolts at those torque values.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Wing Inventory
On Aug 23, 2005, at 10:04 AM, Deems Davis wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
>
> I'm installing the bolts and h/w in the end of the tailcone. The
> Manual says that all AN3 bolts should be torqued to 20-25 inch
> pounds of torque. I've never used a torque wrench before, just used
> muscle to tighten nuts and bolts up until they felt pretty tight.
> When I install these and reach the 20-25 mark, it seems as though
> they could be tighter. The Torque wrench 'trips' just past the
> point where the bolt head seats against the material and the nut is
> also fully seated. I just want to make sure that this is OK, if I
> was doing this on my own without the torque wrench I'd probably
> have put another couple of clinches on it. Just want somebody to
> verify that it's not necessary to over tighten these
>
> Deems Davis
> #406 tailcone
> http://www.deemsrv10.com
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | AN Bolt Torque questions. |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
I had the same questions about the torque as everyone else. I have
looked in 2 other aviation books that show torque specs and both of them
list the exact specs that are in Vans' manual. Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Carpenter
Subject: Re: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
--> RV10-List message posted by: Jeff Carpenter <jeff@westcottpress.com>
Hi Deems,
That sounds just like my bolts at those torque values.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Wing Inventory
On Aug 23, 2005, at 10:04 AM, Deems Davis wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
>
> I'm installing the bolts and h/w in the end of the tailcone. The
> Manual says that all AN3 bolts should be torqued to 20-25 inch pounds
> of torque. I've never used a torque wrench before, just used muscle to
> tighten nuts and bolts up until they felt pretty tight.
> When I install these and reach the 20-25 mark, it seems as though they
> could be tighter. The Torque wrench 'trips' just past the point where
> the bolt head seats against the material and the nut is also fully
> seated. I just want to make sure that this is OK, if I was doing this
> on my own without the torque wrench I'd probably have put another
> couple of clinches on it. Just want somebody to verify that it's not
> necessary to over tighten these
>
> Deems Davis
> #406 tailcone
> http://www.deemsrv10.com
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | AN Bolt Torque questions. |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
Lord knows you don't want to over-torque anything, either!
TDT
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Randy DeBauw
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
I had the same questions about the torque as everyone else. I have
looked in 2 other aviation books that show torque specs and both of them
list the exact specs that are in Vans' manual. Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Carpenter
Subject: Re: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
--> RV10-List message posted by: Jeff Carpenter <jeff@westcottpress.com>
Hi Deems,
That sounds just like my bolts at those torque values.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Wing Inventory
On Aug 23, 2005, at 10:04 AM, Deems Davis wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
>
> I'm installing the bolts and h/w in the end of the tailcone. The
> Manual says that all AN3 bolts should be torqued to 20-25 inch pounds
> of torque. I've never used a torque wrench before, just used muscle to
> tighten nuts and bolts up until they felt pretty tight.
> When I install these and reach the 20-25 mark, it seems as though they
> could be tighter. The Torque wrench 'trips' just past the point where
> the bolt head seats against the material and the nut is also fully
> seated. I just want to make sure that this is OK, if I was doing this
> on my own without the torque wrench I'd probably have put another
> couple of clinches on it. Just want somebody to verify that it's not
> necessary to over tighten these
>
> Deems Davis
> #406 tailcone
> http://www.deemsrv10.com
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | AN Bolt Torque questions. |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
With the Nyloc nuts, you need to be careful not to over torque or you
will ruin the locking characteristics of the nylon. I know what you mean
by it not seeming like much, but make sure you torque from the nut side
and that the bolt is all the way seated in the hole before torquing. I
had asked an AP to explain why from the nut side, and he said that you
do not want any additional friction from the bolt turning in the hole,
so that is why they recommend you torque from the nut side. Sounded
right to me, but I am a geek, not an AP.
Dan
40269
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Subject: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
I'm installing the bolts and h/w in the end of the tailcone. The Manual
says that all AN3 bolts should be torqued to 20-25 inch pounds of
torque. I've never used a torque wrench before, just used muscle to
tighten nuts and bolts up until they felt pretty tight. When I install
these and reach the 20-25 mark, it seems as though they could be
tighter. The Torque wrench 'trips' just past the point where the bolt
head seats against the material and the nut is also fully seated. I just
want to make sure that this is OK, if I was doing this on my own
without the torque wrench I'd probably have put another couple of
clinches on it. Just want somebody to verify that it's not necessary to
over tighten these
Deems Davis
#406 tailcone
http://www.deemsrv10.com
Message 16
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| Subject: | AN Bolt Torque questions. |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
You can also use the tables in Avery's and Cleveland's tool catalogue,
or better yet the aircraft standards manual
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I wondered the same thing. It seems like the Van's recommended
torque specs are lower than what I'd expect. Wasn't there a thread
about a year ago about this? I thought someone said that there
are other torque specs that are more common that are higher.
I don't know if I remember right though. I just did mine per
the torque specs in Van's manual section 5.
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
Deems Davis wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
>
> I'm installing the bolts and h/w in the end of the tailcone. The
Manual
> says that all AN3 bolts should be torqued to 20-25 inch pounds of
> torque. I've never used a torque wrench before, just used muscle to
> tighten nuts and bolts up until they felt pretty tight. When I install
> these and reach the 20-25 mark, it seems as though they could be
> tighter. The Torque wrench 'trips' just past the point where the bolt
> head seats against the material and the nut is also fully seated. I
just
> want to make sure that this is OK, if I was doing this on my own
> without the torque wrench I'd probably have put another couple of
> clinches on it. Just want somebody to verify that it's not necessary
to
> over tighten these
>
> Deems Davis
> #406 tailcone
> http://www.deemsrv10.com
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | AN Bolt Torque questions. |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
One thing I've taken away from other RV web sites is to make sure that you
have a good torque wrench, or at least have yours calibrated. I've never
used the standard click type that I got from Sears, and am nervous about
doing so after reading how far off some of the cheaper ones can be. Anyone
have any comments about this? How to get a torque wrench calibrated?
John Jessen
(Starting HS)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy DeBauw
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
I had the same questions about the torque as everyone else. I have looked in
2 other aviation books that show torque specs and both of them list the
exact specs that are in Vans' manual. Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
Subject: Re: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
--> RV10-List message posted by: Jeff Carpenter <jeff@westcottpress.com>
Hi Deems,
That sounds just like my bolts at those torque values.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Wing Inventory
On Aug 23, 2005, at 10:04 AM, Deems Davis wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
>
> I'm installing the bolts and h/w in the end of the tailcone. The
> Manual says that all AN3 bolts should be torqued to 20-25 inch pounds
> of torque. I've never used a torque wrench before, just used muscle to
> tighten nuts and bolts up until they felt pretty tight.
> When I install these and reach the 20-25 mark, it seems as though they
> could be tighter. The Torque wrench 'trips' just past the point where
> the bolt head seats against the material and the nut is also fully
> seated. I just want to make sure that this is OK, if I was doing this
> on my own without the torque wrench I'd probably have put another
> couple of clinches on it. Just want somebody to verify that it's not
> necessary to over tighten these
>
> Deems Davis
> #406 tailcone
> http://www.deemsrv10.com
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | AN Bolt Torque questions. |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Gospel reading from the Bible. Boy are there a lot of atheists building
RV-10s and those that don't do the homework.
Chapter Seven, Section 3 Bolts, Subsection 7-40 Torque and most
specifically for guys like me that always went for the National
Geographic color pictures, Tables 7-1 on bolts and 7-2 on self-locking
nuts. This was an automatic failure if we did not read exact chapter and
version and then recite it in both A & P school as well as our Practical
Certification Exam.
The "twist till you feel good then a little more for good measure" only
works for drag racing and lawn mower repair. You may just get a
question from your DAR when you try for an Airworthiness Certificate on
torques of specific bolts.
Randy is right, VAN posts the exact table cause it is not open to
personal builder interpretation. Don't post in writing on the RV-10
that you use an alternate method as it become a record which can be
subpoenaed to your surviving heirs to establish a voidable insurance
claim for failure to comply.
Remember that Cadmium plated nuts and nyloc nuts are only good to 450
degrees and 250 degrees respectively. If nylocs can't meet the minimum
torque rule they are trash on aircraft. Save them for the lawnmower.
When it says inch pounds that means inch pounds. You can't get there
with even a torque wrench calibrated daily that is in foot pounds.
There is no guesswork. Never exceed the torque values posted unless
superseded by a manufacturers directive in writing.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
John - KUAO
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I wondered the same thing. It seems like the Van's recommended
torque specs are lower than what I'd expect. Wasn't there a thread
about a year ago about this? I thought someone said that there
are other torque specs that are more common that are higher.
I don't know if I remember right though. I just did mine per
the torque specs in Van's manual section 5.
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
Deems Davis wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
>
> I'm installing the bolts and h/w in the end of the tailcone. The
Manual
> says that all AN3 bolts should be torqued to 20-25 inch pounds of
> torque. I've never used a torque wrench before, just used muscle to
> tighten nuts and bolts up until they felt pretty tight. When I install
> these and reach the 20-25 mark, it seems as though they could be
> tighter. The Torque wrench 'trips' just past the point where the bolt
> head seats against the material and the nut is also fully seated. I
just
> want to make sure that this is OK, if I was doing this on my own
> without the torque wrench I'd probably have put another couple of
> clinches on it. Just want somebody to verify that it's not necessary
to
> over tighten these
>
> Deems Davis
> #406 tailcone
> http://www.deemsrv10.com
>
Message 19
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck@woh.rr.com>
Regarding having a torque wrench calibrated: ask your local IA/AP where
they take theirs. We have a place here in the Dayton area that does it. My
Sears wrench passed with flying colors! How about the question of adding
"running torque" to the final torque value, that is, the torque it takes
just to turn the nyloc nut + final torque value. You'll find that a new nut
takes about 10 - 15 inch/pounds just to turn it in some cases. Do you add
that in. One IA said yes the other said no. I agree 20-25 inch/pounds
ain't much
John Hasbrouck
#40264
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. |
--> RV10-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
John Jessen wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
>
>One thing I've taken away from other RV web sites is to make sure that you
>have a good torque wrench, or at least have yours calibrated. I've never
>used the standard click type that I got from Sears, and am nervous about
>doing so after reading how far off some of the cheaper ones can be. Anyone
>have any comments about this? How to get a torque wrench calibrated?
>
You can clamp the square part in a vise so the handle is horizontal.
Measure the handle length. Find a known weight or measure one .....
lets say 5 Lbs. ..... and hang it on the handle in tyhe middle of where
your hand would be. If it clicks, remove the weight and raise the value
on the wrench and repeat. If you push down on the handle and it clicks,
remove the weight, lower the value on the wrench and repeat. If you
adjust the value so that it takes very little pressure on the handle or
weight to make it click, then that value should be 5 lbs. Any
difference is your error, and should be added/subctracted to get a good
value.
Linn ....... easier done than said
do not archive
>
>
>John Jessen
> (Starting HS)
>
--
Message 21
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| Subject: | AN Bolt Torque questions. |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Second reading for the afternoon bible class. For those on Finish Kits
- from the bible: Chapter 9 Aircraft Systems and Components, Section 2
Hydraulic Systems, Table 9-2 Tube Data and torques for aluminum and
steel.
They are not the same. Be able to identify the two by color. Apply the
appropriate torque value. Study Dan's post on using aluminum fittings
in selected firewall forward applications and use some common sense out
there.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
John - KUAO
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I wondered the same thing. It seems like the Van's recommended
torque specs are lower than what I'd expect. Wasn't there a thread
about a year ago about this? I thought someone said that there
are other torque specs that are more common that are higher.
I don't know if I remember right though. I just did mine per
the torque specs in Van's manual section 5.
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. THANKS |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Thanks for the reassurance.
Do not archive
Deems Davis
#406 tailcone
http://www.deemsrv10.com
linn walters wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>
> John Jessen wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
>>
>> One thing I've taken away from other RV web sites is to make sure
>> that you
>> have a good torque wrench, or at least have yours calibrated. I've
>> never
>> used the standard click type that I got from Sears, and am nervous about
>> doing so after reading how far off some of the cheaper ones can be.
>> Anyone
>> have any comments about this? How to get a torque wrench calibrated?
>>
> You can clamp the square part in a vise so the handle is horizontal.
> Measure the handle length. Find a known weight or measure one .....
> lets say 5 Lbs. ..... and hang it on the handle in tyhe middle of
> where your hand would be. If it clicks, remove the weight and raise
> the value on the wrench and repeat. If you push down on the handle
> and it clicks, remove the weight, lower the value on the wrench and
> repeat. If you adjust the value so that it takes very little pressure
> on the handle or weight to make it click, then that value should be 5
> lbs. Any difference is your error, and should be added/subctracted to
> get a good value.
> Linn ....... easier done than said
> do not archive
>
>>
>>
>> John Jessen
>> (Starting HS)
>>
>
>
Message 23
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
The book says 20-25, we read that as 20-25. No, it doesn't seem like much,
but that's what the book says. If there was some fancy sort of way of
adding to the torque value based on what the Nyloc does, then it would say
that.
It also doesn't take an A&P to figure out that torquing from the bolt side
is going to be inaccurate. Sometimes, though, you have to do that because
of space requirements. We noticed that a lot of nutplates required more
than the specified torque just to get them to tighten all the way in on the
threads. I think we used about 40 in/lbs on the AN3's into nut plates, or
something like that, but there are precious few of those. I thinks the
torque values have to do with a certain PSI (2500PSI is the number that
sticks in my head) that the nut is putting on what it's holding. This is
why the larger nuts require larger torque values, because of the different
thread size and the larger area that the pressure is distributed over. It
also has to do with not overstressing the threads on the nut or bolt.
Notice that the torque values for thin washers are lower (I think half the
torque) because there are fewer threads holding.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hasbrouck
Subject: RV10-List: Torque
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck@woh.rr.com>
Regarding having a torque wrench calibrated: ask your local IA/AP where
they take theirs. We have a place here in the Dayton area that does it. My
Sears wrench passed with flying colors! How about the question of adding
"running torque" to the final torque value, that is, the torque it takes
just to turn the nyloc nut + final torque value. You'll find that a new nut
takes about 10 - 15 inch/pounds just to turn it in some cases. Do you add
that in. One IA said yes the other said no. I agree 20-25 inch/pounds
ain't much
John Hasbrouck
#40264
Message 24
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Scott Schmidt" <sschmidt@ussynthetic.com>
Tom, below is my contact info. I live in South Salt Lake.
Scott Schmidt
Cell 801-319-3094
Work 801-235-9001
Fax 801-235-9141
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV builders
--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
I believe that Mike Howe lives in the SLC area here's his URL
http://www.etigerrr.com/. i believe that Scott Schmidt also lives in the
valley.
Deems Davis
#406 tailcone
http://www.deemsrv10.com
Tom Ganster wrote:
> Are there any RV builders in the Salt Lake City area that I could
> correspond with that might be able to inspect the quality of a
> partially build RV10 in your area?
>
> I live in the Green Bay area and am interested in building an RV10.
> Tim, you live in WI don't you? Would be interested in seeing your
> project if we could arrange it some time. Tom Ganster
> tganster@frontiernet.net
>
Message 25
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
Washers have nothing to do with Torque, unless you are talking a crush
washer and that is for sealing not torque. I FLAT washer is nothing more
than a spacer to ensure the nut does not bottom out on the unthreaded
portion of the bolt. I do agree that torque values are different based
on the distance around the bolt required to distribute the pressure on
the threads, but FLAT washers have nothing to do with torque.
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Torque
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
The book says 20-25, we read that as 20-25. No, it doesn't seem like
much,
but that's what the book says. If there was some fancy sort of way of
adding to the torque value based on what the Nyloc does, then it would
say
that.
It also doesn't take an A&P to figure out that torquing from the bolt
side
is going to be inaccurate. Sometimes, though, you have to do that
because
of space requirements. We noticed that a lot of nutplates required more
than the specified torque just to get them to tighten all the way in on
the
threads. I think we used about 40 in/lbs on the AN3's into nut plates,
or
something like that, but there are precious few of those. I thinks the
torque values have to do with a certain PSI (2500PSI is the number that
sticks in my head) that the nut is putting on what it's holding. This
is
why the larger nuts require larger torque values, because of the
different
thread size and the larger area that the pressure is distributed over.
It
also has to do with not overstressing the threads on the nut or bolt.
Notice that the torque values for thin washers are lower (I think half
the
torque) because there are fewer threads holding.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Hasbrouck
Subject: RV10-List: Torque
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Hasbrouck"
<jhasbrouck@woh.rr.com>
Regarding having a torque wrench calibrated: ask your local IA/AP where
they take theirs. We have a place here in the Dayton area that does it.
My
Sears wrench passed with flying colors! How about the question of
adding
"running torque" to the final torque value, that is, the torque it takes
just to turn the nyloc nut + final torque value. You'll find that a new
nut
takes about 10 - 15 inch/pounds just to turn it in some cases. Do you
add
that in. One IA said yes the other said no. I agree 20-25 inch/pounds
ain't much
John Hasbrouck
#40264
Message 26
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| Subject: | Empcone question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
Quick question... on page 10-15, why is it that you cut off the
triangular portion of the side skin? Is it to clear something? I would
think that both sides would be, you know, symmetrical.
There has to be a reason, and since I don't have the main fuselage
plans, I can't tell why they want you to do it.
-Jim 40384 Tailcone
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Re: Empcone question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
The triangle portion on the pilot side actually mates up w/ the bottom, aft part
of the baggage door frame. There is no baggage door on the other side.
Bob
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
Subject: RV10-List: Empcone question
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
Quick question... on page 10-15, why is it that you cut off the
triangular portion of the side skin? Is it to clear something? I would
think that both sides would be, you know, symmetrical.
There has to be a reason, and since I don't have the main fuselage
plans, I can't tell why they want you to do it.
-Jim 40384 Tailcone
Message 28
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Thank you Dan. And we were taught to always torque correctly.
Too much torque can damage treads, too little torque can allow excessive
loads to be applied on a fastener resulting in later failure. To ensure
the proper preloading forces the correct force must be applied. Unless
otherwise specified "in writing" the values are for clean and dry
threads.
John (A&P) now back to my prayers on the IA exam.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Torque
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R."
<LloydDR@wernerco.com>
Washers have nothing to do with Torque, unless you are talking a crush
washer and that is for sealing not torque. I FLAT washer is nothing more
than a spacer to ensure the nut does not bottom out on the unthreaded
portion of the bolt. I do agree that torque values are different based
on the distance around the bolt required to distribute the pressure on
the threads, but FLAT washers have nothing to do with torque.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Torque
Message 29
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| Subject: | Empcone question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Indran Chelvanayagam" <ichelva@netspace.net.au>
Triangular portion on left side is for reinforcement below baggage door.
Right side is trimmed off as there is no door. I assume that the skins were
symmetrical before Vans bend them, hence the triangular portion on both
sides.
Indran Chelvanayagam
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
Subject: RV10-List: Empcone question
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
Quick question... on page 10-15, why is it that you cut off the triangular
portion of the side skin? Is it to clear something? I would think that both
sides would be, you know, symmetrical.
There has to be a reason, and since I don't have the main fuselage plans, I
can't tell why they want you to do it.
-Jim 40384 Tailcone
Message 30
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| Subject: | Empcone question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
Scary thought isn't it. I though about that one for a couple of days
before the cutting started. Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
Subject: RV10-List: Empcone question
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
Quick question... on page 10-15, why is it that you cut off the
triangular portion of the side skin? Is it to clear something? I would
think that both sides would be, you know, symmetrical.
There has to be a reason, and since I don't have the main fuselage
plans, I can't tell why they want you to do it.
-Jim 40384 Tailcone
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Re: Empcone question |
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
Very scary... get all the empcone drilled, then you have to cut your
baby... sorta like circumsizing your child, eh?
Another question: Has anyone done anything to dress up the hideous
looking rudder cable exits? Anyone got photos of it being dressed up?
I plan on doing a marathon alumiprep, alodine, priming session this
weekend to get the parts ready to rivet next week.
-Jim 40384 (Still watching Randy's video once a week... )
Randy DeBauw wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
>
>Scary thought isn't it. I though about that one for a couple of days
>before the cutting started. Randy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
>Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 1:55 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: Empcone question
>
>--> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
>
>Quick question... on page 10-15, why is it that you cut off the
>triangular portion of the side skin? Is it to clear something? I would
>think that both sides would be, you know, symmetrical.
>There has to be a reason, and since I don't have the main fuselage
>plans, I can't tell why they want you to do it.
>
>-Jim 40384 Tailcone
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | AN Bolt Torque questions. |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@bellsouth.net>
This is on the geeky side, but one potential correction I would suggest to
the test below is that the weight needs to be attached 1 foot from the pivot
point (rather than the center of the hand grip necessarily) if you want to
set the wrench to the same setting as the weight. For example, at 5 pounds,
if you hang the weight at 18" you'll actually have 7.5 foot-pounds at the
pivot.
Great post though, I'm going to give it a shot.
Marcus
You can clamp the square part in a vise so the handle is horizontal.
Measure the handle length. Find a known weight or measure one .....
lets say 5 Lbs. ..... and hang it on the handle in tyhe middle of where
your hand would be. If it clicks, remove the weight and raise the value
on the wrench and repeat. If you push down on the handle and it clicks,
remove the weight, lower the value on the wrench and repeat. If you
adjust the value so that it takes very little pressure on the handle or
weight to make it click, then that value should be 5 lbs. Any
difference is your error, and should be added/subctracted to get a good
value.
Linn ....... easier done than said
do not archive
>
>
>John Jessen
> (Starting HS)
>
--
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. |
In a message dated 8/23/2005 2:01:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jjessen@rcn.com writes:
How to get a torque wrench calibrated?
Hang a known weight at a known distance from the center of the wrench to
the handle (1 foot works easy) and set it or read the scale at that weight.
(For example, 20 foot-pounds) Test with the weight hanging vertical with the
wrench horizontal (parallel) to the floor. Test a few of the common settings you
will actually use. You can hang a cup from the bottom of the weight, and add
ballast to see how much extra it takes to get the click. this should be a
passive weight, not dropped!!
Torque should be rechecked at each pre-flight before sign off (gives you
something to do at night) , and at the 100 hour and/or annual inspection (of any
plane). Over torque can result in a catostrophic failure, under torque can
usually be detected by a good pre-flight visually and physical check of parts for
looseness. 2 threads of the bolts should always be visible past the nut, and
then visual inspection is consistant and easy.
Another source of torque mistakes is too long of a bolt (or lack of washer
spacing as needed) and torquing the nut to the untreaded portion of the bolt,
not compressing the part together, but begining to shear the bolt in two. These
nuts feel tight. If more then 2 threads of the bolt stick through the nut,
measure the bolt (or similar one) and verify that you did not run out of
threads or add washers. My Cessna 170b was rebuilt by someone that forgot
washers.... everywhere!! At our first annual we added dozens of washers and replaced
many bolts. This was missed by the A&P at the pre-buy!!! (engine mount,
wings, horizontal stab, brakepads, etc...) This is a simple but critical item to
check.
Steve
Stephen G. Blank,DDS
Cessna 170b N2715D... soon to start RV-10 (tools arrived!)
Port St Lucie, FL
772-475-5556 cell
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Empcone question, rudder cable fairings |
James attached are some pics of the rudder cable fairings I installed, I
got them from Aircraft Spruce, (10$ If I remember correctly). I
installed them on the inside of the skin, in looking at other pics, I
see where some have installed them on the outside of the skin. I believe
they look better installed on the inside, the only thing I'm not sure
about is if there is going to be enough room to get the cable fitting
threaded through to the rudder attachment, I might have to enlarge the
skin a bit if necessary.
Deems Davis
#406 tailcone
http://www.deemsrv10.com
James Hein wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
>
> Very scary... get all the empcone drilled, then you have to cut your
> baby... sorta like circumsizing your child, eh?
>
> Another question: Has anyone done anything to dress up the hideous
> looking rudder cable exits? Anyone got photos of it being dressed up?
>
> I plan on doing a marathon alumiprep, alodine, priming session this
> weekend to get the parts ready to rivet next week.
>
> -Jim 40384 (Still watching Randy's video once a week... )
>
> Randy DeBauw wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
>>
>> Scary thought isn't it. I though about that one for a couple of days
>> before the cutting started. Randy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 1:55 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: Empcone question
>>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
>>
>> Quick question... on page 10-15, why is it that you cut off the
>> triangular portion of the side skin? Is it to clear something? I
>> would think that both sides would be, you know, symmetrical.
>> There has to be a reason, and since I don't have the main fuselage
>> plans, I can't tell why they want you to do it.
>>
>> -Jim 40384 Tailcone
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | AN Bolt Torque questions. |
I think the confusion is caused by the 'bible' which says:
"d. Add the friction drag torque to the
desired torque. This is referred to as "final
torque," which should register on the indicator
or setting for a snap-over type torque wrench."
The friction drag for a Nylok nut is 'significant' (10-15 in lbs). The question
is, should a constant offset be added to the tabled torque values to account
for this? AC43.13-1B CHG 1 does not provide any guidance on what this value
should be.
Table 7.1 of AC43.13-1B CHG 1 applies to '. . . all cadmium-plated steel nuts of
the fine or coarse thread series which
have approximately equal number of threads and equal face bearing areas.' (note
in table 7.1) I assume Nyloks do not fall into this category and are therefore
not covered by Table 7.1.
One would assume that since the locking mechanism in a Nylok is nylon, it can't
handle the equivalent torque of a cadmium plated steel nut, so over-torquing
by adding an offset to the 20-25 in lb value seems out of the question.
The only guidance we really have is Section 5 of the Builders manual that specifies
torque values for AN bolts and AN310, AN315 and AN365 nut combinations.
AN365 is a Nylok. Therefore, the 20-25 in lb value is what should be used for
Nyloks.
The friction drag for nutplates is also very significant. Again, no guidance is
offered in the bible on the torque to be used. No guidance is offered in Section
5 of the Builder's Manual either. The need to torque the nut certainly can't
be met, so what torque value is applied to the bolt? In this case, there
may be justification for adding the friction drag to the Table 7.1 value.
Sorry for the ramblngs - but it has helped me convince myself that the Vans' specified
value (20-25 inlb) is the only one to use for nutplates.
Ron
#187 flaps
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Gospel reading from the Bible. Boy are there a lot of atheists building
RV-10s and those that don't do the homework.
Chapter Seven, Section 3 Bolts, Subsection 7-40 Torque and most
specifically for guys like me that always went for the National
Geographic color pictures, Tables 7-1 on bolts and 7-2 on self-locking
nuts. This was an automatic failure if we did not read exact chapter and
version and then recite it in both A & P school as well as our Practical
Certification Exam.
The "twist till you feel good then a little more for good measure" only
works for drag racing and lawn mower repair. You may just get a
question from your DAR when you try for an Airworthiness Certificate on
torques of specific bolts.
Randy is right, VAN posts the exact table cause it is not open to
personal builder interpretation. Don't post in writing on the RV-10
that you use an alternate method as it become a record which can be
subpoenaed to your surviving heirs to establish a voidable insurance
claim for failure to comply.
Remember that Cadmium plated nuts and nyloc nuts are only good to 450
degrees and 250 degrees respectively. If nylocs can't meet the minimum
torque rule they are trash on aircraft. Save them for the lawnmower.
When it says inch pounds that means inch pounds. You can't get there
with even a torque wrench calibrated daily that is in foot pounds.
There is no guesswork. Never exceed the torque values posted unless
superseded by a manufacturers directive in writing.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
John - KUAO
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I wondered the same thing. It seems like the Van's recommended
torque specs are lower than what I'd expect. Wasn't there a thread
about a year ago about this? I thought someone said that there
are other torque specs that are more common that are higher.
I don't know if I remember right though. I just did mine per
the torque specs in Van's manual section 5.
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
Deems Davis wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
>
> I'm installing the bolts and h/w in the end of the tailcone. The
Manual
> says that all AN3 bolts should be torqued to 20-25 inch pounds of
> torque. I've never used a torque wrench before, just used muscle to
> tighten nuts and bolts up until they felt pretty tight. When I install
> these and reach the 20-25 mark, it seems as though they could be
> tighter. The Torque wrench 'trips' just past the point where the bolt
> head seats against the material and the nut is also fully seated. I
just
> want to make sure that this is OK, if I was doing this on my own
> without the torque wrench I'd probably have put another couple of
> clinches on it. Just want somebody to verify that it's not necessary
to
> over tighten these
>
> Deems Davis
> #406 tailcone
> http://www.deemsrv10.com
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. |
Marcus Cooper wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@bellsouth.net>
>
>This is on the geeky side, but one potential correction I would suggest to
>the test below is that the weight needs to be attached 1 foot from the pivot
>point (rather than the center of the hand grip necessarily) if you want to
>set the wrench to the same setting as the weight. For example, at 5 pounds,
>if you hang the weight at 18" you'll actually have 7.5 foot-pounds at the
>pivot.
>
That's the beauty of it. No matter how long the handle is, the 5 lb
weight works at 5 lb on the vernier. And the center of your hand is
usually at the vector point. Some fine clicker torque wrenches will
have a pivot in the floating handle so that you can't 'fudge' the place
you pull.
Linn
>
>Great post though, I'm going to give it a shot.
>
>Marcus
>
>
>You can clamp the square part in a vise so the handle is horizontal.
>Measure the handle length. Find a known weight or measure one .....
>lets say 5 Lbs. ..... and hang it on the handle in tyhe middle of where
>your hand would be. If it clicks, remove the weight and raise the value
>on the wrench and repeat. If you push down on the handle and it clicks,
>remove the weight, lower the value on the wrench and repeat. If you
>adjust the value so that it takes very little pressure on the handle or
>weight to make it click, then that value should be 5 lbs. Any
>difference is your error, and should be added/subctracted to get a good
>value.
>Linn ....... easier done than said
>do not archive
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>John Jessen
>> (Starting HS)
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. |
Love that email address!!! I really don't think I addressed this
specifically in my answer to Marcus ...... the handle on the torque
wrench may not be in even increments of 1' to read on the vernier. In
other words, if the handle is 1 1/2' long, hanging the weight at 1 foot
won't work. You need to hang the weight where the hand grip is since
the vernier is calibrated to that vector length.
Linn
do not archive
LIKE2LOOP@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 8/23/2005 2:01:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jjessen@rcn.com writes:
>
> How to get a torque wrench calibrated?
>
> Hang a known weight at a known distance from the center of the
> wrench to the handle (1 foot works easy) and set it or read the scale
> at that weight. (For example, 20 foot-pounds) Test with the weight
> hanging vertical with the wrench horizontal (parallel) to the floor.
> Test a few of the common settings you will actually use. You can hang
> a cup from the bottom of the weight, and add ballast to see how much
> extra it takes to get the click. this should be a passive weight, not
> dropped!!
>
> Torque should be rechecked at each pre-flight before sign off (gives
> you something to do at night) , and at the 100 hour and/or annual
> inspection (of any plane). Over torque can result in a catostrophic
> failure, under torque can usually be detected by a good pre-flight
> visually and physical check of parts for looseness. 2 threads of the
> bolts should always be visible past the nut, and then visual
> inspection is consistant and easy.
>
> Another source of torque mistakes is too long of a bolt (or lack of
> washer spacing as needed) and torquing the nut to the untreaded
> portion of the bolt, not compressing the part together, but begining
> to shear the bolt in two. These nuts feel tight. If more then 2
> threads of the bolt stick through the nut, measure the bolt (or
> similar one) and verify that you did not run out of threads or add
> washers. My Cessna 170b was rebuilt by someone that forgot
> washers.... everywhere!! At our first annual we added dozens
> of washers and replaced many bolts. This was missed by the A&P at the
> pre-buy!!! (engine mount, wings, horizontal stab, brakepads, etc...)
> This is a simple but critical item to check.
>
> Steve
>
> Stephen G. Blank,DDS
> Cessna 170b N2715D... soon to start RV-10 (tools arrived!)
> Port St Lucie, FL
>
> 772-475-5556 cell
>
>
>
>
Message 38
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|
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
Once again Dan has made available to everyone a great service.
If I have said it once I've said a hundred times to anyone looking for input regarding
building an RV, spend some serious time on his site, I'd pay him for the
CD but I'm afraid he will update the info and I'll miss something!!
Rick S.
40185
Fuse on da way!
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | AN Bolt Torque questions. |
Stuffed the last word - should be Nylok, not nutplate.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
I think the confusion is caused by the 'bible' which says:
"d. Add the friction drag torque to the
desired torque. This is referred to as "final
torque," which should register on the indicator
or setting for a snap-over type torque wrench."
The friction drag for a Nylok nut is 'significant' (10-15 in lbs). The question
is, should a constant offset be added to the tabled torque values to account
for this? AC43.13-1B CHG 1 does not provide any guidance on what this value
should be.
Table 7.1 of AC43.13-1B CHG 1 applies to '. . . all cadmium-plated steel nuts of
the fine or coarse thread series which
have approximately equal number of threads and equal face bearing areas.' (note
in table 7.1) I assume Nyloks do not fall into this category and are therefore
not covered by Table 7.1.
One would assume that since the locking mechanism in a Nylok is nylon, it can't
handle the equivalent torque of a cadmium plated steel nut, so over-torquing
by adding an offset to the 20-25 in lb value seems out of the question.
The only guidance we really have is Section 5 of the Builders manual that specifies
torque values for AN bolts and AN310, AN315 and AN365 nut combinations.
AN365 is a Nylok. Therefore, the 20-25 in lb value is what should be used for
Nyloks.
The friction drag for nutplates is also very significant. Again, no guidance is
offered in the bible on the torque to be used. No guidance is offered in Section
5 of the Builder's Manual either. The need to torque the nut certainly can't
be met, so what torque value is applied to the bolt? In this case, there
may be justification for adding the friction drag to the Table 7.1 value.
Sorry for the ramblngs - but it has helped me convince myself that the Vans' specified
value (20-25 inlb) is the only one to use for nutplates.
Ron
#187 flaps
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[ mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Gospel reading from the Bible. Boy are there a lot of atheists building
RV-10s and those that don't do the homework.
Chapter Seven, Section 3 Bolts, Subsection 7-40 Torque and most
specifically for guys like me that always went for the National
Geographic color pictures, Tables 7-1 on bolts and 7-2 on self-locking
nuts. This was an automatic failure if we did not read exact chapter and
version and then recite it in both A & P school as well as our Practical
Certification Exam.
The "twist till you feel good then a little more for good measure" only
works for drag racing and lawn mower repair. You may just get a
question from your DAR when you try for an Airworthiness Certificate on
torques of specific bolts.
Randy is right, VAN posts the exact table cause it is not open to
personal builder interpretation. Don't post in writing on the RV-10
that you use an alternate method as it become a record which can be
subpoenaed to your surviving heirs to establish a voidable insurance
claim for failure to comply.
Remember that Cadmium plated nuts and nyloc nuts are only good to 450
degrees and 250 degrees respectively. If nylocs can't meet the minimum
torque rule they are trash on aircraft. Save them for the lawnmower.
When it says inch pounds that means inch pounds. You can't get there
with even a torque wrench calibrated daily that is in foot pounds.
There is no guesswork. Never exceed the torque values posted unless
superseded by a manufacturers directive in writing.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
John - KUAO
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[ mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I wondered the same thing. It seems like the Van's recommended
torque specs are lower than what I'd expect. Wasn't there a thread
about a year ago about this? I thought someone said that there
are other torque specs that are more common that are higher.
I don't know if I remember right though. I just did mine per
the torque specs in Van's manual section 5.
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
Deems Davis wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
>
> I'm installing the bolts and h/w in the end of the tailcone. The
Manual
> says that all AN3 bolts should be torqued to 20-25 inch pounds of
> torque. I've never used a torque wrench before, just used muscle to
> tighten nuts and bolts up until they felt pretty tight. When I install
> these and reach the 20-25 mark, it seems as though they could be
> tighter. The Torque wrench 'trips' just past the point where the bolt
> head seats against the material and the nut is also fully seated. I
just
> want to make sure that this is OK, if I was doing this on my own
> without the torque wrench I'd probably have put another couple of
> clinches on it. Just want somebody to verify that it's not necessary
to
> over tighten these
>
> Deems Davis
> #406 tailcone
> http://www.deemsrv10.com
>
browse Subscriptions page, Chat, FAQ,
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. |
DNA: do not archive
Its-Bogus: do not forward to list - No Plain-Text Section
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Message 41
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| Subject: | AN Bolt Torque questions. |
DNA: do not archive
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resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
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Message 42
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| Subject: | AN Bolt Torque questions. |
DNA: do not archive
Its-Bogus: do not forward to list - No Plain-Text Section
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
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The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
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Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: AN Bolt Torque questions. |
The thing that gets my attention is the fact that it is only 20-25 IN-Lbs
24 Inch pounds = only 2 Ft lbs. NOT much torque.
Made me realize how much I was really overtorqueing bolts in other applications.
One other comment. I purchased the colored inpectors lacquer (aka TORQUE-SEAL)
to mark those bolts that I have put on for the (hopefully) last time.
Jim Combs
#40192
N312F
Do Not Archive
Message 44
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|
Ya know,
It seems that Van's actually has us in mind when writing the plans. Just
about the time I can't stand doing the mundane task I'm on, I get finished
with it for a while and get to do something else. Then when I come back to
that first task it's not as bad for a while, then I'm to do something else.
I know some of you can multi-task to the point of working on three parts of
the build at once, but, alas, I'm a 1, then 2, and THEN 3, kind of builder.
Maybe I'll get to a more utopian state of builder's awareness later.
Rob
#392
Just finished 10 hours of H.S. prep and prime - time to rivet!
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Empcone question |
The triangle is for the baggage door opening.
Make sure you cut off the correct side.
ray
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Build tanks dry??? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Mark Grieve <mark@macomb.com>
linn walters wrote:
> Hmmm. After reading a post that toluene is preferred for thinning
> ..... wouldn't that be a better cleanup liquid too? Wonder what the
> biohazards are for Toluene Vs. MEK???
> Linn
> do not archive
>
They're both nasty! I believe that MEK can cause liver damage and
Tolulene has to be bad for some other part of you. Use each with caution
and plenty of ventilation.
MG
Message 47
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|
| Subject: | AN Bolt Torque questions. |
RE: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.The only thing that is important
here is the torque that exists in the bolt itself not what is generated as a
result of a locking feature in a nut. The tables referred to are most
likely applicable to a lubricated nut - screw combination. Cad plating acts
like a lubricant. If you are using self locking nuts you should likely add
the run down torque ( the torque you need tighten the the nut and bolt
before it bottoms out ) to the value in the table. This will allow the
tensile force in the bolt to be the same irregardless of the locking
mechanism, ( or lack there of). Any torque specification table should state
the assumptions in the construction of the table. Vans builders guide table
did not specify the conditions under which the table was applicable. You
need that information to use the table. For example, if you were using a
standard nut, it would have a different torque requirement than a locking
nut. This is because the torque required to accomplish a given stress level
or tensile load in the bolt is dependent on the torque required for the
locking mechanism plus the torque needed for the preload. I don't know the
correct answer to the question of what torque is required but I'm sure if it
feels light, it is light.
Best regards,
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
Stuffed the last word - should be Nylok, not nutplate.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Sent: Wednesday, 24 August 2005 9:20 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
I think the confusion is caused by the 'bible' which says:
"d. Add the friction drag torque to the
desired torque. This is referred to as final
torque, which should register on the indicator
or setting for a snap-over type torque wrench."
The friction drag for a Nylok nut is 'significant' (10-15 in lbs). The
question is, should a constant offset be added to the tabled torque values
to account for this? AC43.13-1B CHG 1 does not provide any guidance on what
this value should be.
Table 7.1 of AC43.13-1B CHG 1 applies to '. . . all cadmium-plated steel
nuts of the fine or coarse thread series which
have approximately equal number of threads and equal face bearing
areas.' (note in table 7.1) I assume Nyloks do not fall into this category
and are therefore not covered by Table 7.1.
One would assume that since the locking mechanism in a Nylok is nylon,
it can't handle the equivalent torque of a cadmium plated steel nut, so
over-torquing by adding an offset to the 20-25 in lb value seems out of the
question.
The only guidance we really have is Section 5 of the Builders manual
that specifies torque values for AN bolts and AN310, AN315 and AN365 nut
combinations. AN365 is a Nylok. Therefore, the 20-25 in lb value is what
should be used for Nyloks.
The friction drag for nutplates is also very significant. Again, no
guidance is offered in the bible on the torque to be used. No guidance is
offered in Section 5 of the Builder's Manual either. The need to torque the
nut certainly can't be met, so what torque value is applied to the bolt?
In this case, there may be justification for adding the friction drag to the
Table 7.1 value.
Sorry for the ramblngs - but it has helped me convince myself that the
Vans' specified value (20-25 inlb) is the only one to use for nutplates.
Ron
#187 flaps
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Wednesday, 24 August 2005 4:03 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Gospel reading from the Bible. Boy are there a lot of atheists building
RV-10s and those that don't do the homework.
Chapter Seven, Section 3 Bolts, Subsection 7-40 Torque and most
specifically for guys like me that always went for the National
Geographic color pictures, Tables 7-1 on bolts and 7-2 on self-locking
nuts. This was an automatic failure if we did not read exact chapter and
version and then recite it in both A & P school as well as our Practical
Certification Exam.
The "twist till you feel good then a little more for good measure" only
works for drag racing and lawn mower repair. You may just get a
question from your DAR when you try for an Airworthiness Certificate on
torques of specific bolts.
Randy is right, VAN posts the exact table cause it is not open to
personal builder interpretation. Don't post in writing on the RV-10
that you use an alternate method as it become a record which can be
subpoenaed to your surviving heirs to establish a voidable insurance
claim for failure to comply.
Remember that Cadmium plated nuts and nyloc nuts are only good to 450
degrees and 250 degrees respectively. If nylocs can't meet the minimum
torque rule they are trash on aircraft. Save them for the lawnmower.
When it says inch pounds that means inch pounds. You can't get there
with even a torque wrench calibrated daily that is in foot pounds.
There is no guesswork. Never exceed the torque values posted unless
superseded by a manufacturers directive in writing.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
John - KUAO
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 10:31 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I wondered the same thing. It seems like the Van's recommended
torque specs are lower than what I'd expect. Wasn't there a thread
about a year ago about this? I thought someone said that there
are other torque specs that are more common that are higher.
I don't know if I remember right though. I just did mine per
the torque specs in Van's manual section 5.
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
Deems Davis wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
>
> I'm installing the bolts and h/w in the end of the tailcone. The
Manual
> says that all AN3 bolts should be torqued to 20-25 inch pounds of
> torque. I've never used a torque wrench before, just used muscle to
> tighten nuts and bolts up until they felt pretty tight. When I install
> these and reach the 20-25 mark, it seems as though they could be
> tighter. The Torque wrench 'trips' just past the point where the bolt
> head seats against the material and the nut is also fully seated. I
just
> want to make sure that this is OK, if I was doing this on my own
> without the torque wrench I'd probably have put another couple of
> clinches on it. Just want somebody to verify that it's not necessary
to
> over tighten these
>
> Deems Davis
> #406 tailcone
> http://www.deemsrv10.com
>
browse Subscriptions page, Chat, FAQ,
Message 48
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|
| Subject: | Re: Empcone question, rudder cable fairings |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Deems,
When you run your cables, they have a 3/8" (I think) plastic tubing
on them that has to pass through that hole just enough so the
cable can't possibly rub. If you can get them through with them
on the inside, that will work fine, but my guess is you'll have
to enlarge that hole. With them on the outside, you have just
enough space to hold that tubing fairly tight.
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Deems Davis wrote:
> James attached are some pics of the rudder cable fairings I installed, I
> got them from Aircraft Spruce, (10$ If I remember correctly). I
> installed them on the inside of the skin, in looking at other pics, I
> see where some have installed them on the outside of the skin. I believe
> they look better installed on the inside, the only thing I'm not sure
> about is if there is going to be enough room to get the cable fitting
> threaded through to the rudder attachment, I might have to enlarge the
> skin a bit if necessary.
>
> Deems Davis
> #406 tailcone
> http://www.deemsrv10.com
>
> James Hein wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
>>
>> Very scary... get all the empcone drilled, then you have to cut your
>> baby... sorta like circumsizing your child, eh?
>>
>> Another question: Has anyone done anything to dress up the hideous
>> looking rudder cable exits? Anyone got photos of it being dressed up?
>>
>> I plan on doing a marathon alumiprep, alodine, priming session this
>> weekend to get the parts ready to rivet next week.
>>
>> -Jim 40384 (Still watching Randy's video once a week... )
>>
>> Randy DeBauw wrote:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
>>>
>>> Scary thought isn't it. I though about that one for a couple of days
>>> before the cutting started. Randy
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 1:55 PM
>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RV10-List: Empcone question
>>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
>>>
>>> Quick question... on page 10-15, why is it that you cut off the
>>> triangular portion of the side skin? Is it to clear something? I
>>> would think that both sides would be, you know, symmetrical.
>>> There has to be a reason, and since I don't have the main fuselage
>>> plans, I can't tell why they want you to do it.
>>>
>>> -Jim 40384 Tailcone
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 49
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|
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Richard Sipp" <rsipp@earthlink.net>
Dan,
I recently read here on the list that the flat washer under a nut does have
something to do with the torque, at least indirectly. If you look closely
at an AN flat washer one side is sheared off with a sharp edge, the other is
more finished with a radius. The poster pointed out that the rounded edge
should go against the nut and was formed that way to control the amount of
frition surface bearing against the nut and maintain consistent torque
values. Until reading the post and looking at the washers closely I never
realized there was a top and bottom to a flat washer.
I have not seen other references to this other than the list posting but it
seems to make sense.
Dick Sipp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Torque
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> Washers have nothing to do with Torque, unless you are talking a crush
> washer and that is for sealing not torque. I FLAT washer is nothing more
> than a spacer to ensure the nut does not bottom out on the unthreaded
> portion of the bolt. I do agree that torque values are different based
> on the distance around the bolt required to distribute the pressure on
> the threads, but FLAT washers have nothing to do with torque.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 3:44 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Torque
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
>
> The book says 20-25, we read that as 20-25. No, it doesn't seem like
> much,
> but that's what the book says. If there was some fancy sort of way of
> adding to the torque value based on what the Nyloc does, then it would
> say
> that.
>
> It also doesn't take an A&P to figure out that torquing from the bolt
> side
> is going to be inaccurate. Sometimes, though, you have to do that
> because
> of space requirements. We noticed that a lot of nutplates required more
> than the specified torque just to get them to tighten all the way in on
> the
> threads. I think we used about 40 in/lbs on the AN3's into nut plates,
> or
> something like that, but there are precious few of those. I thinks the
> torque values have to do with a certain PSI (2500PSI is the number that
> sticks in my head) that the nut is putting on what it's holding. This
> is
> why the larger nuts require larger torque values, because of the
> different
> thread size and the larger area that the pressure is distributed over.
> It
> also has to do with not overstressing the threads on the nut or bolt.
> Notice that the torque values for thin washers are lower (I think half
> the
> torque) because there are fewer threads holding.
>
> Jesse Saint
> I-TEC, Inc.
> jesse@itecusa.org
> www.itecusa.org
> W: 352-465-4545
> C: 352-427-0285
> F: 815-377-3694
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
> Hasbrouck
> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 2:43 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Torque
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Hasbrouck"
> <jhasbrouck@woh.rr.com>
>
> Regarding having a torque wrench calibrated: ask your local IA/AP where
>
> they take theirs. We have a place here in the Dayton area that does it.
> My
>
> Sears wrench passed with flying colors! How about the question of
> adding
> "running torque" to the final torque value, that is, the torque it takes
>
> just to turn the nyloc nut + final torque value. You'll find that a new
> nut
>
> takes about 10 - 15 inch/pounds just to turn it in some cases. Do you
> add
> that in. One IA said yes the other said no. I agree 20-25 inch/pounds
> ain't much
>
> John Hasbrouck
> #40264
>
>
>
Message 50
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|
--> RV10-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
I'm a little sceptical. I think you're looking at natural forming
taking place when the washer is punched.
Linn
do not archive
Richard Sipp wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Richard Sipp" <rsipp@earthlink.net>
>
> Dan,
>
> I recently read here on the list that the flat washer under a nut does
> have something to do with the torque, at least indirectly. If you
> look closely at an AN flat washer one side is sheared off with a sharp
> edge, the other is more finished with a radius. The poster pointed
> out that the rounded edge should go against the nut and was formed
> that way to control the amount of frition surface bearing against the
> nut and maintain consistent torque values. Until reading the post and
> looking at the washers closely I never realized there was a top and
> bottom to a flat washer.
> I have not seen other references to this other than the list posting
> but it seems to make sense.
>
> Dick Sipp
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd, Daniel R."
> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 4:37 PM
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Torque
>
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R."
>> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>>
>> Washers have nothing to do with Torque, unless you are talking a crush
>> washer and that is for sealing not torque. I FLAT washer is nothing more
>> than a spacer to ensure the nut does not bottom out on the unthreaded
>> portion of the bolt. I do agree that torque values are different based
>> on the distance around the bolt required to distribute the pressure on
>> the threads, but FLAT washers have nothing to do with torque.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 3:44 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Torque
>>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
>>
>> The book says 20-25, we read that as 20-25. No, it doesn't seem like
>> much,
>> but that's what the book says. If there was some fancy sort of way of
>> adding to the torque value based on what the Nyloc does, then it would
>> say
>> that.
>>
>> It also doesn't take an A&P to figure out that torquing from the bolt
>> side
>> is going to be inaccurate. Sometimes, though, you have to do that
>> because
>> of space requirements. We noticed that a lot of nutplates required more
>> than the specified torque just to get them to tighten all the way in on
>> the
>> threads. I think we used about 40 in/lbs on the AN3's into nut plates,
>> or
>> something like that, but there are precious few of those. I thinks the
>> torque values have to do with a certain PSI (2500PSI is the number that
>> sticks in my head) that the nut is putting on what it's holding. This
>> is
>> why the larger nuts require larger torque values, because of the
>> different
>> thread size and the larger area that the pressure is distributed over.
>> It
>> also has to do with not overstressing the threads on the nut or bolt.
>> Notice that the torque values for thin washers are lower (I think half
>> the
>> torque) because there are fewer threads holding.
>>
>> Jesse Saint
>> I-TEC, Inc.
>> jesse@itecusa.org
>> www.itecusa.org
>> W: 352-465-4545
>> C: 352-427-0285
>> F: 815-377-3694
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
>> Hasbrouck
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 2:43 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: Torque
>>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Hasbrouck"
>> <jhasbrouck@woh.rr.com>
>>
>> Regarding having a torque wrench calibrated: ask your local IA/AP where
>>
>> they take theirs. We have a place here in the Dayton area that does it.
>> My
>>
>> Sears wrench passed with flying colors! How about the question of
>> adding
>> "running torque" to the final torque value, that is, the torque it takes
>>
>> just to turn the nyloc nut + final torque value. You'll find that a new
>> nut
>>
>> takes about 10 - 15 inch/pounds just to turn it in some cases. Do you
>> add
>> that in. One IA said yes the other said no. I agree 20-25 inch/pounds
>> ain't much
>>
>> John Hasbrouck
>> #40264
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Message 51
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|
| Subject: | Re: Empcone question, rudder cable fairings |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Thanks for the heads up, I was afraid of that. I just went and measured,
I've got 7/16" vertically, but only 5/16" between the inside of the
fairing and the skin. Looks like I'll have some finagling to do.
Tim Olson wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> Deems,
>
> When you run your cables, they have a 3/8" (I think) plastic tubing
> on them that has to pass through that hole just enough so the
> cable can't possibly rub. If you can get them through with them
> on the inside, that will work fine, but my guess is you'll have
> to enlarge that hole. With them on the outside, you have just
> enough space to hold that tubing fairly tight.
>
> Tim
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> Deems Davis wrote:
>
>> James attached are some pics of the rudder cable fairings I
>> installed, I got them from Aircraft Spruce, (10$ If I remember
>> correctly). I installed them on the inside of the skin, in looking
>> at other pics, I see where some have installed them on the outside of
>> the skin. I believe they look better installed on the inside, the
>> only thing I'm not sure about is if there is going to be enough room
>> to get the cable fitting threaded through to the rudder attachment, I
>> might have to enlarge the skin a bit if necessary.
>>
>> Deems Davis
>> #406 tailcone
>> http://www.deemsrv10.com
>>
>> James Hein wrote:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
>>>
>>> Very scary... get all the empcone drilled, then you have to cut
>>> your baby... sorta like circumsizing your child, eh?
>>>
>>> Another question: Has anyone done anything to dress up the hideous
>>> looking rudder cable exits? Anyone got photos of it being dressed up?
>>>
>>> I plan on doing a marathon alumiprep, alodine, priming session this
>>> weekend to get the parts ready to rivet next week.
>>>
>>> -Jim 40384 (Still watching Randy's video once a week... )
>>>
>>> Randy DeBauw wrote:
>>>
>>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Randy DeBauw" <Randy@abros.com>
>>>>
>>>> Scary thought isn't it. I though about that one for a couple of days
>>>> before the cutting started. Randy
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 1:55 PM
>>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: RV10-List: Empcone question
>>>>
>>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
>>>>
>>>> Quick question... on page 10-15, why is it that you cut off the
>>>> triangular portion of the side skin? Is it to clear something? I
>>>> would think that both sides would be, you know, symmetrical.
>>>> There has to be a reason, and since I don't have the main fuselage
>>>> plans, I can't tell why they want you to do it.
>>>>
>>>> -Jim 40384 Tailcone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 52
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|
Rob
I look back at that time and wish someone would have convinced me of what
I'm about to tell you. Van's builds one heck of a good kit, and if you
study the plans well, and ream and deburr with a coghill, you can save a ton
of hours. You will still have to do some drilling, but the quality of the
kit is so good that you can do all the prep before you assemble. Bob K
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert G. Wright
Subject: RV10-List: thought
Ya know,
It seems that Van's actually has us in mind when writing the plans. Just
about the time I can't stand doing the mundane task I'm on, I get finished
with it for a while and get to do something else. Then when I come back to
that first task it's not as bad for a while, then I'm to do something else.
I know some of you can multi-task to the point of working on three parts of
the build at once, but, alas, I'm a 1, then 2, and THEN 3, kind of builder.
Maybe I'll get to a more utopian state of builder's awareness later.
Rob
#392
Just finished 10 hours of H.S. prep and prime - time to rivet!
Message 53
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|
| Subject: | AN Bolt Torque questions. |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann@cox.net>
Did you not remove the plastic protector?
Bob K
If not say oh shit and undo it.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Combs
Subject: Re: RV10-List: AN Bolt Torque questions.
The thing that gets my attention is the fact that it is only 20-25 IN-Lbs
24 Inch pounds = only 2 Ft lbs. NOT much torque.
Made me realize how much I was really overtorqueing bolts in other
applications.
One other comment. I purchased the colored inpectors lacquer (aka
TORQUE-SEAL) to mark those bolts that I have put on for the (hopefully) last
time.
Jim Combs
#40192
N312F
Do Not Archive
Message 54
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|
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Dean Van Winkle" <dvanwinkle@royell.net>
Listers
Regarding John's comments regarding "running torque" , yes the running
torque is additive to the specified torque. Just consider a case where the
specified torque is 25 inch/pounds and you find the running torque is 25
inch/pounds. If you apply 25 inch/pounds with your torque wrench, you would
literally have zero torque on the bolt.
Dean Van Winkle Retired Aeronautical Engineer
RV-9A Fuselage/Finish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Sipp" <rsipp@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Torque
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Richard Sipp" <rsipp@earthlink.net>
>
> Dan,
>
> I recently read here on the list that the flat washer under a nut does
> have something to do with the torque, at least indirectly. If you look
> closely at an AN flat washer one side is sheared off with a sharp edge,
> the other is more finished with a radius. The poster pointed out that the
> rounded edge should go against the nut and was formed that way to control
> the amount of frition surface bearing against the nut and maintain
> consistent torque values. Until reading the post and looking at the
> washers closely I never realized there was a top and bottom to a flat
> washer.
> I have not seen other references to this other than the list posting but
> it seems to make sense.
>
> Dick Sipp
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 4:37 PM
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Torque
>
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R."
>> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>>
>> Washers have nothing to do with Torque, unless you are talking a crush
>> washer and that is for sealing not torque. I FLAT washer is nothing more
>> than a spacer to ensure the nut does not bottom out on the unthreaded
>> portion of the bolt. I do agree that torque values are different based
>> on the distance around the bolt required to distribute the pressure on
>> the threads, but FLAT washers have nothing to do with torque.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 3:44 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Torque
>>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
>>
>> The book says 20-25, we read that as 20-25. No, it doesn't seem like
>> much,
>> but that's what the book says. If there was some fancy sort of way of
>> adding to the torque value based on what the Nyloc does, then it would
>> say
>> that.
>>
>> It also doesn't take an A&P to figure out that torquing from the bolt
>> side
>> is going to be inaccurate. Sometimes, though, you have to do that
>> because
>> of space requirements. We noticed that a lot of nutplates required more
>> than the specified torque just to get them to tighten all the way in on
>> the
>> threads. I think we used about 40 in/lbs on the AN3's into nut plates,
>> or
>> something like that, but there are precious few of those. I thinks the
>> torque values have to do with a certain PSI (2500PSI is the number that
>> sticks in my head) that the nut is putting on what it's holding. This
>> is
>> why the larger nuts require larger torque values, because of the
>> different
>> thread size and the larger area that the pressure is distributed over.
>> It
>> also has to do with not overstressing the threads on the nut or bolt.
>> Notice that the torque values for thin washers are lower (I think half
>> the
>> torque) because there are fewer threads holding.
>>
>> Jesse Saint
>> I-TEC, Inc.
>> jesse@itecusa.org
>> www.itecusa.org
>> W: 352-465-4545
>> C: 352-427-0285
>> F: 815-377-3694
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
>> Hasbrouck
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 2:43 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: Torque
>>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Hasbrouck"
>> <jhasbrouck@woh.rr.com>
>>
>> Regarding having a torque wrench calibrated: ask your local IA/AP where
>>
>> they take theirs. We have a place here in the Dayton area that does it.
>> My
>>
>> Sears wrench passed with flying colors! How about the question of
>> adding
>> "running torque" to the final torque value, that is, the torque it takes
>>
>> just to turn the nyloc nut + final torque value. You'll find that a new
>> nut
>>
>> takes about 10 - 15 inch/pounds just to turn it in some cases. Do you
>> add
>> that in. One IA said yes the other said no. I agree 20-25 inch/pounds
>> ain't much
>>
>> John Hasbrouck
>> #40264
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 55
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
There is some truth to that, look at the bearing surface of the screw/bolt head.
You will see a small radius between the shaft and the flush bearing surface
of the connector that fits into the radius portion of the flat washer if one is
called for on the bolt/screw head side of the assembly. Most bolts/screws do
not have a washer callout for the head of the fastener, the radius is built into
the washer for the time this is required, not so much for use on the nut side
of the fastener.. Flame away if needed
Rick S.
40185
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: Build tanks dry??? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
Toulene and MEK have the same PEL, Toulene has a lower LEL, (lower explosive limit)
than MEK by a few degrees. MEK is easier to find, Toulene is geared more
for industrial applications. Since I'm in Chicago attending a few courses at the
OSHA institute, I'll check tomorrow with the Industrial Hygenist's to let everyone
know how bad both of these products are. I reiterate my previous posts
regarding low grade headaches while building fuel tanks and the hazards of inhalation
and absorbtion by contact (transdermal penetration) of these products.
I can't tell all of you how "bad" these chemicals are without proper protection.
See, now you made me fall back into my day job as a OSHA compliance dude..(that's
what the young construction workers refer to me onsite)
Rick S.
40185
Message 57
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IMHO, information straight from the source is best, so I hope this
copy/paste from *AC 43.13-1B** CHG 1, Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and
Practices - Aircraft Inspection *located
here<http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/99C827DB9BAAC81B86256B4500596C4E?OpenDocument&Highlightacceptable%20methods>
* *or http://www.checkoway.com/url/?s9ad0faae* *helps with the discussion.
* *-Jim*
*
*7-40. TORQUES. *The importance of correct torque application cannot be
overemphasized. Undertorque can result in unnecessary wear of nuts and
bolts, as well as the parts they secure. Overtorque can cause failure of a
bolt or nut from overstressing the threaded areas. Uneven or additional
loads that are applied to the assembly may result in wear or premature
failure. The following are a few simple, but important procedures, that
should be followed to ensure that correct torque is applied.
*NOTE: Be sure that the torque applied is for the size of the bolt shank not
the wrench size. *
*a. Calibrate the torque wrench *at least once a year, or immediately after
it has been abused or dropped, to ensure continued accuracy.
*b. Be sure the bolt and nut threads are clean and dry, *unless otherwise
specified by the manufacturer.
*c. Run the nut down to near contact *with the washer or bearing surface and
check the friction drag torque required to turn the nut. Whenever possible,
apply the torque to the nut and not the bolt. This will reduce rotation of
the bolt in the hole and reduce wear.
*d. Add the friction drag torque *to the desired torque. This is referred to
as "final torque," which should register on the indicator or setting for a
snap-over type torque wrench.
*e. Apply a smooth even pull *when applying torque pressure. If chattering
or a jerking motion occurs during final torque, back off the nut and
retorque.
*NOTE: Many applications of bolts in aircraft/engines require stretch checks
prior to reuse. This requirement is due primarily to bolt stretching caused
by overtorquing.*
*f. When installing a castle nut*, start alignment with the cotter pin hole
at the minimum recommended torque plus friction drag torque.
*NOTE: Do not exceed the maximum torque plus the friction drag. If the hole
and nut castellation do not align, change washer or nut and try again.
Exceeding
the maximum recommended torque is not recommended.*
*g. When torque is applied *to bolt heads or capscrews, apply the
recommended torque plus friction drag torque.
*h. If special adapters are used *which will change the effective length of
the torque wrench, the final torque indication or wrench setting must be
adjusted accordingly. Determine the torque wrench indication or setting with
adapter installed as shown in figure 7-2.
*i. Table 7-1
<http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/4280/ac43131btable71torquevalues9cn.jpg>
*shows the recommended torque to be used when specific torque is not
supplied by the manufacturer. The table includes standard nut and bolt
combinations, currently used in aviation maintenance. For further
identification of hardware, see chapter 7, section 11.
[Ed. Table 7-1 is located
here<http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/4280/ac43131btable71torquevalues9cn.jpg>,
or long-hand...http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/4280/ac43131btable71torquevalues9cn.jpg]<http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/4280/ac43131btable71torquevalues9cn.jpg>
Message 58
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In addition, I think this copy/paste from *AC 43.13-1B** CHG 1, Acceptable
Methods, Techniques, and Practices - Aircraft Inspection ** *located
here<http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/99C827DB9BAAC81B86256B4500596C4E?OpenDocument&Highlightacceptable%20methods>
* *or http://www.checkoway.com/url/?s9ad0faae is apt to the discussion.
-Jim
*
7-64. SELF-LOCKING NUTS. *These nuts are acceptable for use on certificated
aircraft subject to the aircraft manufacturer's recommended practice sheets
or specifications. Two types of self-locking nuts are currently in use, the
all-metal type, and the fiber or nylon type.
...
*e. Metal locknuts *are constructed with either the threads in the locking
insert, out-of round with the load-carrying section, or with a saw-cut
insert with a pinched-in thread in the locking section. The locking action
of the all metal nut depends upon the resiliency of the metal when the
locking section and load carrying section are engaged by screw threads. Metal
locknuts are primarily used in high temperature areas.
*f. Fiber or nylon locknuts *are constructed with an unthreaded fiber or
nylon locking insert held securely in place. The fiber or nylon insert
provides the locking action because it has a smaller diameter than the
nut. Fiber
or nylon self-locking nuts are not installed in areas where temperatures
exceed 250 =B0F. After the nut has been tightened, make sure the bolt or stud
has at least one thread showing past the nut. DO NOT reuse a fiber or nylon
locknut, if the nut cannot meet the minimum prevailing torque values. (See
table 7-2.)<http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/7152/ac43131btable72nuttorquevalues.jpg>
[Ed. Table 7-2 is
here<http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/7152/ac43131btable72nuttorquevalues.jpg>or
long-hand:
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/7152/ac43131btable72nuttorquevalues.jpg ]
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