Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:27 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (Paul Walter)
2. 02:55 AM - Engine (Paul Walter)
3. 05:01 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (Werner Schneider)
4. 05:08 AM - Re: aileron trim (Jesse Saint)
5. 05:32 AM - Re: aileron trim (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
6. 05:45 AM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (Rene Felker)
7. 05:57 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (Rick)
8. 06:42 AM - Re: Engine (Rhonda Bewley)
9. 06:44 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (Rick)
10. 06:48 AM - Avery Tool Sale (Larry Rosen)
11. 06:51 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (Larry Rosen)
12. 07:31 AM - TMXIO-540 (Jesse Saint)
13. 07:34 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com)
14. 07:59 AM - Aileron trim (Rick)
15. 08:28 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (William Curtis)
16. 08:28 AM - Re: Real time and cost to build? From a new subscriber (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com)
17. 08:30 AM - Re: TMXIO-540 (Perry Casson)
18. 08:48 AM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
19. 08:49 AM - (BPA)
20. 08:56 AM - Re: Aileron trim (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
21. 09:08 AM - Re: Aileron trim (Jesse Saint)
22. 09:13 AM - Re: Chelton Certification stuff (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
23. 09:36 AM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (Jesse Saint)
24. 09:48 AM - (BPE) Lycoming Engine (rv10builder)
25. 09:49 AM - Re: Chelton Certification stuff (Tim Olson)
26. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com)
27. 10:18 AM - Wing order + components (James Ochs)
28. 10:24 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (John W. Cox)
29. 10:35 AM - Re: Aileron trim (JOHN STARN)
30. 10:41 AM - Re: Wing order + components (Harris, Jeremy P)
31. 10:50 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (BPA)
32. 10:51 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (William Curtis)
33. 11:00 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (William Curtis)
34. 11:02 AM - Re: Wing order + components (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
35. 11:46 AM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (Jesse Saint)
36. 12:18 PM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
37. 12:18 PM - Re: Wing order + components (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
38. 12:27 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
39. 12:46 PM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com)
40. 12:48 PM - Re: (BPE) Lycoming Engine (BPA)
41. 01:11 PM - Re: Wing order + components (Larry Rosen)
42. 01:11 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (John W. Cox)
43. 01:36 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (BPA)
44. 01:38 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com)
45. 01:42 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (William Curtis)
46. 02:47 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (Jesse Saint)
47. 03:26 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
48. 03:45 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com)
49. 04:14 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (LessDragProd@aol.com)
50. 06:51 PM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (Tim Olson)
51. 06:54 PM - Re: Wing order + components (Tim Olson)
52. 06:59 PM - Re: Wing order + components (Tim Olson)
53. 07:03 PM - Re: Wing order + components (Tim Olson)
54. 07:44 PM - Quick build (Paul Walter)
55. 08:58 PM - Re: Real time and cost to build? From a new subscriber (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of John Jessen)
56. 09:08 PM - Re: FW: Group buy on covers. (Randy DeBauw)
57. 10:04 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (John W. Cox)
58. 10:06 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Lycoming Engines |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Paul Walter" <pdwalter@bigpond.net.au>
just like some advice from the more experienced builders. When drilling out
bothched solid rivets is the correct method to drill right through with an
undersized drill and then crush end of shank and the drill countersunk
recessed end with the 1/8 bit and punch remaining rivet out. I want the
neatest method that will not damage skin or spar.
Paul Walter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> Wow, didn't even notice that......$42,650 for a new Lyc now.
> Hmmm.... Let's see.... Lycoming announces a new "experimental"
> version of their engine at OSH, but it's only a couple thousand
> less than the standard one. Then, the price jumps up about
> $3,000 from Van's. (this isn't saying anything bad about Van's)
> I'm wondering though....does that mean that in reality, the
> new "kit" engine is now Van's old price, and the one Van's
> is listing is actually the "certified" one?
>
> It just smells to me kind of like lycoming is pulling one
> of those "On sale - 10% off!!" deals, after putting on a
> 10%+ price increase.
>
> I was worried with the new kit ECI's coming out that my
> aerosport purchase would have been paying a bit on the
> high side....but at least this makes me feel even better
> about the price I paid.
>
> You're right to look at that TMX540 though....that one
> may be a great way to go. Aerosport got my order already,
> so I didn't have a choice, but Aerosport has such a fantastic
> reputation (and I can actually see it in the quality of care
> they put into my engine) that I just won't feel bad about
> that purchase.
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> Nikolaos Napoli wrote:
>> Back to the engine question. I am getting close to ordering one and
>> noticed that Vans prices went up considerably for the IO540. Does anyone
>> know if this has the new tapped technology?
>> Has anyone compared the TMX540 (Mattituck) to the Aerosport?
>> Thanks
>> Niko
>>
>
>
>
Message 2
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As im not that experienced in regards to all of the lycoming engine models etc
and realize Vans recomends 540. I thought i'd read that there are both 560 and
580 Lycoming models. Could these be fitted and are they the same engine block
with larger bore or stroke and hence fit under cowl. I gues inrease in horse
power would be a no no.
Paul Walter
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Lycoming Engines |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar@gmx.net>
Hello Paul,
I can only talk for myself, I would not crush anything, I drill centred
on the head a tad smaller then the shank is, then when I think I have
drilled about the deep of the head, I wiggle a bit with the drill and
normally the head breaks off then. The punch then is used to punch the
rest (shank and formed head) out.
If you crush the end you always will elongate the hole. You have to take
care to drill however centred and I would recommend to practice this on
a sample a few times.
br Werner
Paul Walter wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Paul Walter" <pdwalter@bigpond.net.au>
>
> just like some advice from the more experienced builders. When
> drilling out bothched solid rivets is the correct method to drill
> right through with an undersized drill and then crush end of shank and
> the drill countersunk recessed end with the 1/8 bit and punch
> remaining rivet out. I want the neatest method that will not damage
> skin or spar.
>
> Paul Walter
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 5:23 AM
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
>
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>>
>> Wow, didn't even notice that......$42,650 for a new Lyc now.
>> Hmmm.... Let's see.... Lycoming announces a new "experimental"
>> version of their engine at OSH, but it's only a couple thousand
>> less than the standard one. Then, the price jumps up about
>> $3,000 from Van's. (this isn't saying anything bad about Van's)
>> I'm wondering though....does that mean that in reality, the
>> new "kit" engine is now Van's old price, and the one Van's
>> is listing is actually the "certified" one?
>>
>> It just smells to me kind of like lycoming is pulling one
>> of those "On sale - 10% off!!" deals, after putting on a
>> 10%+ price increase.
>>
>> I was worried with the new kit ECI's coming out that my
>> aerosport purchase would have been paying a bit on the
>> high side....but at least this makes me feel even better
>> about the price I paid.
>>
>> You're right to look at that TMX540 though....that one
>> may be a great way to go. Aerosport got my order already,
>> so I didn't have a choice, but Aerosport has such a fantastic
>> reputation (and I can actually see it in the quality of care
>> they put into my engine) that I just won't feel bad about
>> that purchase.
>>
>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>
>>
>> Nikolaos Napoli wrote:
>>
>>> Back to the engine question. I am getting close to ordering one and
>>> noticed that Vans prices went up considerably for the IO540. Does
>>> anyone know if this has the new tapped technology?
>>> Has anyone compared the TMX540 (Mattituck) to the Aerosport?
>>> Thanks
>>> Niko
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 4
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Can't answer that. I don't know anything about Van's kit. All I know is
that we paid $175 each for our trims, installed them in 2 hours each after
the plane had already been flying, and they work great. Beyond that, I
can't say much.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ddddsp1@juno.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: aileron trim
The trim servo kit from Van's is $275. Why is AEROTRIM servo trim kit only
$175?
DEAN
Message 5
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There's not much to it, just a MAC servo, a tab, and linkage, but I'm surprised
as well. I believe it was much more than the Van's trim at EAA when I looked.
Must have a cheaper version for experimental.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Flaps
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ddddsp1@juno.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: aileron trim
The trim servo kit from Van's is $275. Why is AEROTRIM servo trim kit only $175?
DEAN
Message 6
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| Subject: | RE: Lycoming Engines |
Have you seen the new prices on the Aerosport site? $37,500. Do you think
the number of RV-10 kits being built is driving up the price? I am starting
to look and the price increase are causing me to look at other
alternatives....maybe I will end up with a Subaru. But, I really want to
stay with the IO-540.
Rene' Felker
40322
N423CF
Wings - 90%
Fuslage - 10%
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis
Subject: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines
Yup, they raised the price of the 260HP IO-540 from $38,990 to $42,650, an
over $3,600 increase. However they now have an offering of the 250HP O-540
for $37,500. Other than fuel injection, anyone know what else is different
between these engines? It would seem you could get the O and add fuel
injection for a lot less than $5,150 or FADEC for a little more. I think
I'll be looking at the IO-540 clone from Aerosport. Maybe in these days of
$5 avgas, they will reconsider the 210HP Continental IO-360.
>Back to the engine question. I am getting close to ordering one and noticed
>that Vans prices went up considerably for the IO540. Does anyone know if
>this has the new tapped technology?
William Curtis
40237 - wings
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Lycoming Engines |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
Paul,
It will take some practice but here are a few tips. If you look at the head of
each rivet there is a tiny dimple for you bit to start in, make sure your right
on it when you get going. I use the same size drill as the rivet. Start slow
and strive to keep the bit perpendicular to the head as possible. Once you get
into the head about the depth of the drill bit plus a tad more, stop and use
a punch either 3/32 or 1/8 inch inserted in to the hole to snap off the head.
Now you may find that the hole will just round out instead of snapping off, it
happens so next time go a little deeper. Now it's decision time. If you can
back up the area behind the shop head, use the punch to drive out the remaining
piece of the rivet, many times if you have snapped the head off just right it
will come out easily. Or you can drill out the last piece, key here is to get
that bit to follow your original hole VERY CLOSE if not exact.
A very slightly undersized bit can help but not really needed as much as a good
round of drilling out bad rivets to practice. I don't recommend using the bit
to snap off the head, I tried twice, first time put a slight bend in the bit,
and second time broke the tip. No need to waste bits and the sharp end of the
punch works well to bite into the base of your hole to snap off the rivet head.
I find that when I drill them out now, once the head is off I have almost removed
the balance of the rivet or it comes out just before I get ready to snap off
the head. Of course I have only drilled out bad rivets that other builders have
set, not on my own airplane because I have not set a bad rivet yet :D. If
Bob Kaufmann tries to say otherwise and point to that silly picture he has hanging
in shop that he "alleges" is me drilling out a bad rivet on my RV-10 pay
no attention, it's photoshopped.
Rick S.
40185
Fuselage
Message 8
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Lycoming does offer an experimental 580 engine, at 323 hp. It would not
be suitable for the RV-10 however, because it is an angle head engine
and is too wide for the standard cowling. We have built some for the
higher powered aerobatic performers. Peter Besenyai flys one, and so
does Patty Wagstaff.
Rhonda Barrett-Bewley
Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.
2870-B N. Sheridan Rd.
Tulsa, OK 74115
(918) 835-1089 phone
((18) 835-1754 fax
www.barrettprecisionengines.com
<http://www.barrettprecisionengines.com/>
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walter
Subject: RV10-List: Engine
As im not that experienced in regards to all of the lycoming engine
models etc and realize Vans recomends 540. I thought i'd read that there
are both 560 and 580 Lycoming models. Could these be fitted and are they
the same engine block with larger bore or stroke and hence fit under
cowl. I gues inrease in horse power would be a no no.
Paul Walter
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Lycoming Engines |
DNA: do not archive
Its-Bogus: do not forward to list - No Plain-Text Section
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Message 10
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
Avery Tools <www.averytools.com> is having a sale on tools. 5% off and
free shipping. The free shipping would help if you need only a few tools.
I have no relation to Avery, but in my experience they provide high
quality tools.
Larry Rosen
N205EN (reserved)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Lycoming Engines |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
"Start slow" I turn the chuck by hand to get the drill started, and
then after the bit starts to bite then I slowly pull the trigger.
Larry Rosen
N205EN (reserved)
Rick wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
>
>Paul,
>
>It will take some practice but here are a few tips. If you look at the head of
each rivet there is a tiny dimple for you bit to start in, make sure your right
on it when you get going. I use the same size drill as the rivet. Start slow
and strive to keep the bit perpendicular to the head as possible. Once you get
into the head about the depth of the drill bit plus a tad more, stop and use
a punch either 3/32 or 1/8 inch inserted in to the hole to snap off the head.
Now you may find that the hole will just round out instead of snapping off,
it happens so next time go a little deeper. Now it's decision time. If you can
back up the area behind the shop head, use the punch to drive out the remaining
piece of the rivet, many times if you have snapped the head off just right
it will come out easily. Or you can drill out the last piece, key here is to get
that bit to follow your original hole VERY CLOSE if not exact.
>
>A very slightly undersized bit can help but not really needed as much as a good
round of drilling out bad rivets to practice. I don't recommend using the bit
to snap off the head, I tried twice, first time put a slight bend in the bit,
and second time broke the tip. No need to waste bits and the sharp end of the
punch works well to bite into the base of your hole to snap off the rivet head.
>
>I find that when I drill them out now, once the head is off I have almost removed
the balance of the rivet or it comes out just before I get ready to snap off
the head. Of course I have only drilled out bad rivets that other builders
have set, not on my own airplane because I have not set a bad rivet yet :D. If
Bob Kaufmann tries to say otherwise and point to that silly picture he has hanging
in shop that he "alleges" is me drilling out a bad rivet on my RV-10 pay
no attention, it's photoshopped.
>
>Rick S.
>40185
>Fuselage
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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Is there a reason that people are talking about the Aerosport engine at
$37,500 over the Teledyne engine at $34,150? Am I missing something? What
are the differences that make it worth spending $3,200 more for the
Aerosport engine?
By the way, my dad is up in MN right now, flew up there yesterday. He made
it 917 statute miles on 50 gallons with headwinds. Our experience has been
that Van's fuel burn numbers are conservative. Of course, they only list
numbers up to 8,000 feet, at which altitude it burns a lot. We burn about
10.5gph at 10,500 with true airspeeds between 185 and 195mph.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
Message 13
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| Subject: | Lycoming Engines |
John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I
am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality.
Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate
engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective
choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE,
Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the
Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality
engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and
support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your
engine, you are going to get a quality product.
While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several
performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting,
porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here
at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features.
We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say
is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of
upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options
and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal
at best.
Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program
have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is
probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done
some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our
pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without
sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard
IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price
differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders,
Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included,
silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a
full power run.
If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September,
we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip
for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06,
go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year.
Historically, price increases have come on January 1.
Allen Barrett
BPE, Inc.
www.barrettpreceisionengines.com
<http://www.barrettpreceisionengines.com/>
(918) 835-1089
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Brian, if you knew the differences between the Mattituck TMX540 and
BPA's product, you would know the price difference and answer your own
question. It's a mater of choice, feature and quality. Now don't
forget a Forsling Exhaust System while you are at the Apples and Oranges
comparison. I am sure Alan would agree quietly on the side. You will
get what you pay for.
John - $00.02
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv10builder
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Not sure there really is much of a difference (except in price):
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/190317-1.html
I myself intend to place my deposit in January and am leaning towards
the Mattituck given the significant difference in price posted on their
respective sites. I would however go for a BPA engine if the price was
comparable. (Alan, you out there?) : )
Brian Sutherland
Nashville, TN
Fuselage connected to tailcone!
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-N104BS
Do not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Nikolaos Napoli <mailto:owl40188@yahoo.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:41 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Back to the engine question. I am getting close to ordering one
and noticed that Vans prices went up considerably for the IO540. Does
anyone know if this has the new tapped technology?
Has anyone compared the TMX540 (Mattituck) to the Aerosport?
Thanks
Nikon
Message 14
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DNA: do not archive
Its-Bogus: do not forward to list - No Plain-Text Section
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Message 15
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| Subject: | RE: Lycoming Engines |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@core.com>
What is the $37,500 for, one of their overhauls or a clone? Ive
always questioned the wisdom of paying 80-90% of the cost of a new
engine from Vans, for an overhauled engine by ANY shop in the field.
Before they started offering Lycoming clones, they were selling
overhauled IO-540 engines for about $33,500 when Vans was selling new
IO-540s for $38,990. 85% of the cost of new for a field overhauled
engine. The peace of mind of a new crankshaft alone is worth the
extra 15% ($5,500), at least to me. How many field overhauls include
a new crankshaft. Tim, does you engine have a new crankshaft? All
the porting and balancing in the world won't help when a questionable
crank fails.
If this is the cost for a clone IO-540 with ALL new parts on the other
hand, that would be another story and a fair deal.
>Have you seen the new prices on the Aerosport site? $37,500. Do you
>think the number of RV-10 kits being built is driving up the price?
I am
>starting to look and the price increase are causing me to look at
other
>alternatives....maybe I will end up with a Subaru. But, I really
want to
>stay with the IO-540.
William Curtis
40237 - wings
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
Message 16
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| Subject: | Real time and cost to build? From a new subscriber |
Bob,
Are you a member of the Fly Rotary Group? "Rotary motors in aircraft
[flyrotary@lancaironline.net]" Three of us on the list are putting
Rotary's in the 10.
Bobby Hughes
40116
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob.kaufmann
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Real time and cost to build? From a new
subscriber
My nickel after talking to Misty pilot, is IFR, rotary 20B, all glass,
and under 100
Bob K
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
GenGrumpy@aol.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Real time and cost to build? From a new
subscriber
I'll throw a nickel on the grass (as the old fighter pilot song goes).
Going the QB route, with some great (and RV experienced helpers). At
least a year to complete, some of which is lead time for Van to deliver
QB kits.
With new engine (rather than some clunker rebuild), new prop and REAL
IFR package (with backup), probably $150k is a good ball park.
You can do it for less, but with increased risk.
I figure.....$120k and a 2nd class machine that is VFR or $150k and a
first class machine with reall IFR capability. And you'll be head to
head with the Cirrus and Lancair bubbas, who have $500k+ in their
machines.
It's your call.....
Probably get strafed by others for my opinion.
Grumpy 40404
In a message dated 10/5/2005 9:29:49 PM Central Standard Time,
jjessen@rcn.com writes:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
=09
Mike,
=09
Good questions. A trip through the land of RV web sites will
help you,
greatly. Also, search the archives. There are many references
there as to
the time to build and costs.
=09
I cannot do anything but give you a projected cost range that I
came up with
between $120,000
to $140,000. I hope the estimated range is high; I doubt it.
=09
But to me, the one thing that disturbed me about your post was
the "need" to
get this done within a year or less. Randy, the first totally
completed
RV-10 to fly, was finished in 20 months, with help, both in
terms of
physical labor, but also in terms of subsections being farmed
out, such as
the panel. (Randy can fill you in on exactly what were his
shortcuts.)
Twenty months is fast, my friend. I expect to take between 24
and 48
months, depending if I, too, go QB, which is still being
debated. For a
plane of this complexity, anything south of 24 months would be
proud to crow
about, but less than 12? Please don't set that as your goal.
This stuff is
doable, but it is not strictly a Lego or erector set.
=09
traveling on
business) and each and every weekend for at least 6 hours (when
I'm not
being pulled away by others who don't understand the passion and
addiction,
but whose needs must be recognized - none of us are total
recluses, yet),
and there's no way that I could get it done in less time than
Randy's 20
months. I have all the tools, and the requisite knowledge and
skills, and
there's no way. In short, enjoy the process, build well and
have some
fun...or, buy one already built. I'm sure there will be a few
up for sale
soon.
=09
My best,
=09
John Jessen
40328 HS
=09
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Lee
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 4:49 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: Real time and cost to build? From a new
subscriber
=09
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Mike Lee"
<miklleen@hotmail.com>
=09
OK I am sure this has been asked before, but maybe someoneone
could send me
copies of any list digests with information on this, or just
reply directly.
=09
I am ver seriously considering an RV-10 project. What I would
like is
information from real builders on the following:
=09
Assuming the following:
1) RV-10 Quick build kit
2) Builder has good mechanical aptitude and electonics
experience.
3) Never built an airplane before, or any project of this size.
4) Planning to keep customizations to a minimum.
5) Need to keep costs down, planning on finding a used mid time
engine, CS
prop, analog engine gauges, basic JPI engine monitor, will shell
out $ for a
Garmin 530 / 430 combo and indicators.
6) Want an IFR platform (hence the 530 / 430 combo)
7) GPS / Nav coupled auto pilot with altitude hold.
8) Will paint myself, will have uphoulstry done.
9) Basic sound proofing.
10) Wingtip stobes, plus stobe beacon, otherwise standard
lighting with taxi
/ landing light.
=09
Can I get an estimate of build time and costs? What types of
unexpected
costs that are not in the above are there?
=09
Anyone else out there with similar goals / expectaions?
=09
What are other builders doing to keep costs down?
=09
I know I can save some $$ by buying a standard kit instead of a
quick build,
but I have a need to have the aircraft done in less than a year,
working
evenings and weekends.
=09
THANKS!!!!! for any and all help!
=09
Mike
Message 17
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Perry Casson <pcasson@sasktel.net>
I think getting the 1yr warranty for the TMXIO-540 upgraded to match the
3 year offered by Aerosport is at least $2K ($2K is what they charge for
the 360 engine) so that gets it closer.
Timely topic - going to have to make the big leap to get into the queue
for one of these darn things soon.
Perry Casson
Regina Canada
Jesse Saint wrote:
> Is there a reason that people are talking about the Aerosport engine
> at $37,500 over the Teledyne engine at $34,150? Am I missing
> something? What are the differences that make it worth spending $3,200
> more for the Aerosport engine?
>
> By the way, my dad is up in MN right now, flew up there yesterday. He
> made it 917 statute miles on 50 gallons with headwinds. Our experience
> has been that Vans fuel burn numbers are conservative. Of course,
> they only list numbers up to 8,000 feet, at which altitude it burns a
> lot. We burn about 10.5gph at 10,500 with true airspeeds between 185
> and 195mph.
>
> Jesse Saint
>
> I-TEC, Inc.
>
> jesse@itecusa.org <mailto:jesse@itecusa.org>
>
> www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
>
> W: 352-465-4545
>
> C: 352-427-0285
>
> F: 815-377-3694
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | RE: Lycoming Engines |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
Ironically, with Lycoming's track record, some may prefer a good "old"
crankshaft to a brand-new one from Lycoming . . . he he
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Curtis
Subject: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines
--> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@core.com>
What is the $37,500 for, one of their overhauls or a clone? I've
always questioned the wisdom of paying 80-90% of the cost of a new
engine from Van's, for an overhauled engine by ANY shop in the field.
Before they started offering Lycoming clones, they were selling
overhauled IO-540 engines for about $33,500 when Van's was selling new
IO-540s for $38,990. 85% of the cost of new for a field overhauled
engine. The peace of mind of a new crankshaft alone is worth the
extra 15% ($5,500), at least to me. How many field overhauls include
a new crankshaft. Tim, does you engine have a new crankshaft? All
the porting and balancing in the world won't help when a questionable
crank fails.
If this is the cost for a clone IO-540 with ALL new parts on the other
hand, that would be another story and a fair deal.
>Have you seen the new prices on the Aerosport site? $37,500. Do you
>think the number of RV-10 kits being built is driving up the price?
I am
>starting to look and the price increase are causing me to look at
other
>alternatives....maybe I will end up with a Subaru. But, I really
want to
>stay with the IO-540.
William Curtis
40237 - wings
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
Message 19
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0.20 FROM_NO_LOWER From address has no lower-case characters
List,
Jesse brought to my attention the wrong URL listing on my earlier post.
Our website address is www.barrettprecisionengines.com
<http://www.barrettprecisionengines.com/> . Sorry for any inconvenience
this may have caused.
Allen Barrett
BPE, Inc.
________________________________
I've stopped 37,350 spam messages. You can too!
One month FREE spam protection at www.cloudmark.com
<http://www.cloudmark.com/spamnet?v1&rcgjw23>
<http://www.cloudmark.com/spamnet?v1&rcgjw23>
Message 20
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The Aerotrim unit requires you to cut a small square out of the control surface.
It then sit's in that hole as a complete unit acting as the access plate.
You then attach a small tab to the trailing edge of the control surface and
the linkage then controls that. You would route the control wires out the back
of the control surface into the aircraft. It is a very straight forward system
when you want to add trim to an existing system that has no other option.
For me the clean install of the Van's system inside the wing, moving the whole
surface, is a better option. I may still consider Aerotrim for the rudder should
the need arise.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Flaps
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Subject: RV10-List: Aileron trim
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick
Jesse,
Did your aileron trim require cutting into the aileron itself or does is move the
entire roll control?
Rick s.
40185
Fuselage
Message 21
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick
You have to cut a square hole in the control surface and it operates a hinge
that you rivet onto the trailing edge of the aileron and/or rudder.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Subject: RV10-List: Aileron trim
Jesse,
Did your aileron trim require cutting into the aileron itself or does is
move the entire roll control?
Rick s.
40185
Fuselage
Message 22
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| Subject: | Chelton Certification stuff |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
Tim:
I think that article was written in a slightly confusing way, mixing up
Chelton-specific news with general advances in synthetic terrain
technology that have also been ocurring. I haven't heard of any
NASA-Chelton work down at Langley. Langley has been doing a lot of work
with Collins, whose "Syn Vis" system was installed on the NASA 757, so
that's probably what they're talking about in the second part of that
article.
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: RV10-List: Chelton Certification stuff
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
In case you don't watch the AvWeb news, they have a smal
bit of info on Chelton's latest moves here:
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/484-full.html
Apparently the Chelton system is now certified to cover all
large part 23 aircraft, and they're even installing them
on some big airliners. Also some cool stuff where they added
FLIR and cool stuff. It's pretty exciting to see where
they're taking all of this technology. I just can't
wait to actually fly behind it.
If I finish the build and fly-off before SNF, I'll have to
meet some of you and maybe do a few rides.
Tim
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 23
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| Subject: | RE: Lycoming Engines |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
Both of those prices are for brand new clone engines. I think they are even
certified Lycoming parts, just not a certified data plate. It was my
understanding from Lycoming after speaking to them at Oshkosh that their
certified engines are now shipping with the roller lifters, which might
account for the difference in price. That is just what they told me, but I
don't understand all of the details about that.
I think $34,500 is a decent price for a new engine considering what
certified ones cost. Aerosport has been charging about $1,000 less than
that for an overhauled one. I wonder what the insurance ramifications would
be for an experimental new engine. Any thoughts?
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis
Subject: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines
--> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@core.com>
What is the $37,500 for, one of their overhauls or a clone? I've
always questioned the wisdom of paying 80-90% of the cost of a new
engine from Van's, for an overhauled engine by ANY shop in the field.
Before they started offering Lycoming clones, they were selling
overhauled IO-540 engines for about $33,500 when Van's was selling new
IO-540s for $38,990. 85% of the cost of new for a field overhauled
engine. The peace of mind of a new crankshaft alone is worth the
extra 15% ($5,500), at least to me. How many field overhauls include
a new crankshaft. Tim, does you engine have a new crankshaft? All
the porting and balancing in the world won't help when a questionable
crank fails.
If this is the cost for a clone IO-540 with ALL new parts on the other
hand, that would be another story and a fair deal.
>Have you seen the new prices on the Aerosport site? $37,500. Do you
>think the number of RV-10 kits being built is driving up the price?
I am
>starting to look and the price increase are causing me to look at
other
>alternatives....maybe I will end up with a Subaru. But, I really
want to
>stay with the IO-540.
William Curtis
40237 - wings
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
Message 24
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| Subject: | (BPE) Lycoming Engine |
Allen,
I was already impressed with BPE's reputation in the industry, but figured that
came with a significantly larger price. The figure you quoted is very attractive
(especially given the extras). Balancing is especially important to me given
I intend to go with the two blade Hartzel. Do you have a spec sheet already
drawn up that contains details on the equipment list, options, etc? Given
the anticipated price increase for '06 you mentioned, what deposit do you require?
When is the balance due?
Sorry Allen - (and the rest of you folks) this maybe better discussed of list.
It just seems that many of us at the point of making an engine decision and I
dearly love this topic!
Brian Sutherland
rv10builder@bellsouth.net
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-N104BS
Nashville, TN
40308 (Fuselage connected to tailcone!) Now where did I put that baggage door?
----- Original Message -----
From: BPA
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! J I am in agreement
with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear the air
a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans makes the
experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops that are
regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine
engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We
build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry
and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your
engine, you are going to get a quality product.
While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance
enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and polishing,
etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build our experimental
engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the right way to build
an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can purchase a basic engine
and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable
in options and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are
minimal at best.
Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have adjusted
their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably the biggest
cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very close evaluation
of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we are very competitive
with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality that we are well
known for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of
the price differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, Champion
plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, silicon rocker
box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a full power run.
If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd be
happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for anyone -
if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead and order your
engine before the end of the year. Historically, price increases have come
on January 1.
Allen Barrett
BPE, Inc.
www.barrettpreceisionengines.com
(918) 835-1089
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 8:53 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Brian, if you knew the differences between the Mattituck TMX540 and BPA's product,
you would know the price difference and answer your own question. It's
a mater of choice, feature and quality. Now don't forget a Forsling Exhaust System
while you are at the Apples and Oranges comparison. I am sure Alan would
agree quietly on the side. You will get what you pay for.
John - $00.02
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv10builder
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 6:34 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Not sure there really is much of a difference (except in price):
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/190317-1.html
I myself intend to place my deposit in January and am leaning towards the Mattituck
given the significant difference in price posted on their respective sites.
I would however go for a BPA engine if the price was comparable. (Alan,
you out there?) : )
Brian Sutherland
Nashville, TN
Fuselage connected to tailcone!
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-N104BS
Do not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Nikolaos Napoli
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:41 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Back to the engine question. I am getting close to ordering one and noticed
that Vans prices went up considerably for the IO540. Does anyone know if this
has the new tapped technology?
Has anyone compared the TMX540 (Mattituck) to the Aerosport?
Thanks
Nikon
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Chelton Certification stuff |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Ahhh, typical news media....our local newspaper is the worst.
Well, maybe it's not Chelton, but no matter who's stuff is
in the 757, it's very cool that the margins betweens
"us" and "them" are getting much smaller!
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
>
>
> Tim:
>
> I think that article was written in a slightly confusing way, mixing up
> Chelton-specific news with general advances in synthetic terrain
> technology that have also been ocurring. I haven't heard of any
> NASA-Chelton work down at Langley. Langley has been doing a lot of work
> with Collins, whose "Syn Vis" system was installed on the NASA 757, so
> that's probably what they're talking about in the second part of that
> article.
>
> TDT
> 40025
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 12:19 AM
> To: RV10
> Subject: RV10-List: Chelton Certification stuff
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> In case you don't watch the AvWeb news, they have a smal
> bit of info on Chelton's latest moves here:
>
> http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/484-full.html
>
> Apparently the Chelton system is now certified to cover all
> large part 23 aircraft, and they're even installing them
> on some big airliners. Also some cool stuff where they added
> FLIR and cool stuff. It's pretty exciting to see where
> they're taking all of this technology. I just can't
> wait to actually fly behind it.
>
> If I finish the build and fly-off before SNF, I'll have to
> meet some of you and maybe do a few rides.
>
> Tim
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Lycoming Engines |
There is the extra 15 hours of test period for non-certified engine/prop.
The fuel could cost $700 and up for that extra time.
Doug Preston
Message 27
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| Subject: | Wing order + components |
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I
might need to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget
something or have to wait to continue building because I'm waiting for a
part.
So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;)
The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or
impossible after the wing is closed:
Conduit / bushings for the wiring
AOA / pitot tubing
coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas
aileron trim kit
A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet,
and suspecting there will be some interesting things happening in the
next 2 - 3 years before I'm ready for an engine installation, what would
I need to do differently to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were to use
something that required JET-A as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is there a
way to build the tanks / plumbing so that you could use any of the
above? Or does it not matter, and the real question is quantity? (I'll
leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice discussion for
much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;)
If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the
AOA indicator that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of
them or can they share the same ports in the wings the way a
pitot-static system can? I like the display of the AOA pro but a lot of
the glass units have that feature built in so it would be nice to have
them both working.
Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring does
it require?
I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to
install before or after the wing is closed?
Thanks
James
#40400
elevators
Message 28
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| Subject: | Lycoming Engines |
PS. A plug on the Barrett Cold Induction Option and Forsling Tuned
Exhaust are important areas for consideration by the mass of RV-10
builders. Many of whom would look to a Subie or Innodyne before fully
understanding the approved Firewall Forward choices (Insurable) that fit
with VANS cowl and mount. Since you are listening and posting. Thanks
for the data.
Any chance that the cowl mod you are working on would allow an IO-580X
to be hung?
John - KUAO
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I
am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality.
Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate
engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective
choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE,
Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the
Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality
engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and
support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your
engine, you are going to get a quality product.
While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several
performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting,
porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here
at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features.
We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say
is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of
upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options
and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal
at best.
Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program
have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is
probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done
some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our
pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without
sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard
IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price
differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders,
Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included,
silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a
full power run.
If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September,
we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip
for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06,
go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year.
Historically, price increases have come on January 1.
Allen Barrett
BPE, Inc.
www.barrettpreceisionengines.com
<http://www.barrettpreceisionengines.com/>
(918) 835-1089
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Brian, if you knew the differences between the Mattituck TMX540 and
BPA's product, you would know the price difference and answer your own
question. It's a mater of choice, feature and quality. Now don't
forget a Forsling Exhaust System while you are at the Apples and Oranges
comparison. I am sure Alan would agree quietly on the side. You will
get what you pay for.
John - $00.02
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron trim |
How does one cut a small square hole ??? Glad you asked. AFTER I drilled out a
round hole, used Dremel disk, bits & then a file to create a somewhat square
hole an ole hand showed me his "nibbling tool". Ya start with a 7/16" drilled
hole. Insert the (Aircraft Spruce p/n 12-10400 page 548) nibbler and cut away.
Have used it many times where I didn't want to take the chance of having a grinding
disk, wheel or bit "jump & run". Great for those "odd" shaped holes or
corners, trimming inside for a perfect fit. For $16.75 it works wonders and it's
a great pilot gag gift. Without the instructions given it's riot to watch someone
try to figger out what it is, how it works and what it's for. Wonderful
for that "know it all" at the airport. Works on up to 18 Ga steel. KABONG
----- Original Message -----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Aileron trim
The Aerotrim unit requires you to cut a small square out of the control surface.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Wing order + components |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Harris, Jeremy P" <jeremy.p.harris@boeing.com>
Re- Wing Parts to have on hand
Autopilot servo / wiring if you are going to mount in the wings!
-----Original Message-----
From: James Ochs [mailto:jochs@froody.org]
Subject: RV10-List: Wing order + components
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I
might need to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget
something or have to wait to continue building because I'm waiting for a
part.
So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;)
The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or
impossible after the wing is closed:
Conduit / bushings for the wiring
AOA / pitot tubing
coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas aileron trim kit
A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet,
and suspecting there will be some interesting things happening in the
next 2 - 3 years before I'm ready for an engine installation, what would
I need to do differently to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were to use
something that required JET-A as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is there a
way to build the tanks / plumbing so that you could use any of the
above? Or does it not matter, and the real question is quantity? (I'll
leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice discussion for
much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;)
If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the
AOA indicator that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of
them or can they share the same ports in the wings the way a
pitot-static system can? I like the display of the AOA pro but a lot of
the glass units have that feature built in so it would be nice to have
them both working.
Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring does
it require?
I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to
install before or after the wing is closed?
Thanks
James
#40400
elevators
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Lycoming Engines |
BPE's Cold Air Induction WILL work for the IO-580, IO-540 parallel and
IO-540 Angle head engines respectfully, However, because of the width of
both the angle head I0-540 and IO-580, the cowling is being designed to
work with the parallel head IO-540. I'm sure some folks are interested
in the angle head engines for the RV-10, but I haven't heard of it being
done at this time.
Allen Barrett
BPE, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
PS. A plug on the Barrett Cold Induction Option and Forsling Tuned
Exhaust are important areas for consideration by the mass of RV-10
builders. Many of whom would look to a Subie or Innodyne before fully
understanding the approved Firewall Forward choices (Insurable) that fit
with VANS cowl and mount. Since you are listening and posting. Thanks
for the data.
Any chance that the cowl mod you are working on would allow an IO-580X
to be hung?
John - KUAO
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I
am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality.
Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate
engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective
choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE,
Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the
Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality
engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and
support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your
engine, you are going to get a quality product.
While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several
performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting,
porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here
at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features.
We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say
is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of
upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options
and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal
at best.
Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program
have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is
probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done
some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our
pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without
sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard
IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price
differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders,
Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included,
silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a
full power run.
If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September,
we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip
for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06,
go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year.
Historically, price increases have come on January 1.
Allen Barrett
BPE, Inc.
www.barrettpreceisionengines.com
<http://www.barrettpreceisionengines.com/>
(918) 835-1089
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Brian, if you knew the differences between the Mattituck TMX540 and
BPA's product, you would know the price difference and answer your own
question. It's a mater of choice, feature and quality. Now don't
forget a Forsling Exhaust System while you are at the Apples and Oranges
comparison. I am sure Alan would agree quietly on the side. You will
get what you pay for.
John - $00.02
Message 32
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| Subject: | RE: Lycoming Engines |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@core.com>
I think the $34,150 price from Lycoming is an overhauled cost with a
core trade in. What is the value of a IO-540 core these days? $10-12K?
>Is there a reason that people are talking about the Aerosport
>engine at $37,500 over the Teledyne engine at $34,150?
William Curtis
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
Message 33
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| Subject: | RE: Lycoming Engines |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@core.com>
Allen,
This is great information and I will now also consider the BPA IO-540-
X. You should add this information and your price list to your web
page and loose the music -IMHO. I think you would get some more
converts as a result. Just a thought.
>Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program
>have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is
>probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have
done
>some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our
>pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without
>sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The
standard
>IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price
>differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders,
>Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included,
>silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a
>full power run
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Wing order + components |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Only absolutely critical item is the pitot mount. Everything else can be added
after the wings are closed. It's certainly easier to put the AP roll servo in
berfore closing. Pitot tubing and snap bushings come w/the kit. If you go
the conduit route instead you'll need to do that before closing.
Bob
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
Subject: RV10-List: Wing order + components
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I
might need to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget
something or have to wait to continue building because I'm waiting for a
part.
So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;)
The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or
impossible after the wing is closed:
Conduit / bushings for the wiring
AOA / pitot tubing
coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas
aileron trim kit
A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet,
and suspecting there will be some interesting things happening in the
next 2 - 3 years before I'm ready for an engine installation, what would
I need to do differently to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were to use
something that required JET-A as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is there a
way to build the tanks / plumbing so that you could use any of the
above? Or does it not matter, and the real question is quantity? (I'll
leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice discussion for
much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;)
If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the
AOA indicator that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of
them or can they share the same ports in the wings the way a
pitot-static system can? I like the display of the AOA pro but a lot of
the glass units have that feature built in so it would be nice to have
them both working.
Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring does
it require?
I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to
install before or after the wing is closed?
Thanks
James
#40400
elevators
Message 35
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| Subject: | RE: Lycoming Engines |
I will quote the Mattituck website:
As with all TMX series engines, the TMX-540 will be assembled using 100% new
FAA approved and certified parts.
The all new part TMX-540 includes the latest roller tappet technology
available from Textron Lycoming.
The TMXO-540 engine producing 250/260 horsepower is attractively priced at
$33,250.00 outright and complete with new Unison/Slick magnetos, new
Unison/Slick ignition harness, new Unison/Slick spark plugs, new lightweight
Sky-Tec starter, new Lycoming fuel pump and a rebuilt Precision Airmotive
carburetor.
The TMXIO-540 engine producing 250/260 horsepower is attractively priced at
$34,150.00 outright, complete with new Unison/Slick magnetos, new
Unison/Slick ignition harness, new Unison/Slick spark plugs, new lightweight
Sky-Tec starter, new Lycoming fuel pump and a complete new Precision
Airmotive SilverHawk EX or Airflow Performance EX fuel injection system.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis
Subject: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines
--> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@core.com>
I think the $34,150 price from Lycoming is an overhauled cost with a
core trade in. What is the value of a IO-540 core these days? $10-12K?
>Is there a reason that people are talking about the Aerosport
>engine at $37,500 over the Teledyne engine at $34,150?
William Curtis
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
Message 36
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| Subject: | RE: Lycoming Engines |
Not if you are burning 10 or less GPH of mogas @$3 or less a gallon. Probably
equals out or even comes in under the cost of Avgas for a cert engine combo.
Michael Sausen
-10 # 352 Flaps
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines
There is the extra 15 hours of test period for non-certified engine/prop. The fuel
could cost $700 and up for that extra time.
Doug Preston
Message 37
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| Subject: | Wing order + components |
I did the duckworks HID while I was working on that part of the wing. It will
be easier to get the nutplates and mounting bracket in place before you rivet
on the leading edge. I even put nutplates in place in the opposite wing in case
I decide to add a second kit down the road.
Don't forget position lights also. If you go with the AoA from Rob, you can
also get the wing kit and put that in at the same time as the duckworks HID.
It sits just aft of the HID. Others have already mentioned the Pitot and AP.
Just don't forget to order the AP servo for the opposite wing if you get Van's
Aileron trim.
For fuel tanks you could do a couple things. First, JetA or any other heavy
fuel needs positive ventilation so you will need to work that out. I would talk
to the guys at Deltahawk for specifics. Second, if you go with an engine conversion
like Eggs Subaru you will need a return line for the fuel as they are
constant supply. There is info on Egg's website but basically it's just an
additional bulkhead in the -5 size in the vicinity of the vent connected to a
tube that dumps into the second bay from the supply line so you don't get bubbles.
If you are considering it you can put in the bulkhead and just cap it if
you don't use it.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Flaps
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs
Subject: RV10-List: Wing order + components
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I might need
to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget something or have to wait
to continue building because I'm waiting for a part.
So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;)
The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or impossible after
the wing is closed:
Conduit / bushings for the wiring
AOA / pitot tubing
coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas aileron trim kit
A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet, and suspecting
there will be some interesting things happening in the next 2 - 3 years
before I'm ready for an engine installation, what would I need to do differently
to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were to use something that required JET-A
as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is there a way to build the tanks / plumbing
so that you could use any of the above? Or does it not matter, and the real question
is quantity? (I'll leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice
discussion for much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;)
If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the AOA indicator
that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of them or can they
share the same ports in the wings the way a pitot-static system can? I like
the display of the AOA pro but a lot of the glass units have that feature built
in so it would be nice to have them both working.
Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring does it require?
I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to install before
or after the wing is closed?
Thanks
James
#40400
elevators
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Lycoming Engines |
Here's a question, with all the porting, balancing, flow matching, etc what is
the honest HP you normally see on the Dyno for your IO-540-X Engine. I know the
stuff makes a difference, just like to quantify things for the $$$. I expect
it's unofficially above 260.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Flaps
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I am in agreement
with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear the air
a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans makes the
experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops that are
regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine
engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We
build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry
and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your
engine, you are going to get a quality product.
While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance enhancing
upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and polishing, etc
etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build our experimental
engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the right way to build
an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can purchase a basic engine
and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable
in options and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are
minimal at best.
Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have adjusted
their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably the biggest
cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very close evaluation
of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we are very competitive
with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality that we are well known
for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the
price differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, Champion
plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, silicon rocker
box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a full power run.
If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd be happy
to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for anyone - if
you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead and order your
engine before the end of the year. Historically, price increases have come
on January 1.
Allen Barrett
BPE, Inc.
www.barrettpreceisionengines.com <http://www.barrettpreceisionengines.com/>
(918) 835-1089
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Brian, if you knew the differences between the Mattituck TMX540 and BPA's product,
you would know the price difference and answer your own question. It's a
mater of choice, feature and quality. Now don't forget a Forsling Exhaust System
while you are at the Apples and Oranges comparison. I am sure Alan would
agree quietly on the side. You will get what you pay for.
John - $00.02
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv10builder
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Not sure there really is much of a difference (except in price):
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/190317-1.html
I myself intend to place my deposit in January and am leaning towards the Mattituck
given the significant difference in price posted on their respective sites.
I would however go for a BPA engine if the price was comparable. (Alan, you
out there?) : )
Brian Sutherland
Nashville, TN
Fuselage connected to tailcone!
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-N104BS
Do not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Nikolaos Napoli <mailto:owl40188@yahoo.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:41 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Back to the engine question. I am getting close to ordering one and noticed
that Vans prices went up considerably for the IO540. Does anyone know if
this has the new tapped technology?
Has anyone compared the TMX540 (Mattituck) to the Aerosport?
Thanks
Nikon
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Lycoming Engines |
I am not up to speed on the mogas situation. Thought the IO-540 had to run
100LL, unless maybe u run the lowest compression pistons. I do want the power
so plan to run higher compression. Will have to research that when time comes.
Doug
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 40
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| Subject: | (BPE) Lycoming Engine |
Brian,
The IO-540-X WE provide comes with the roller cam and followers(of
course), new Lycoming fuel pump, new Slick magnetos and harness, new
Champion plugs, new lightweight Skytec starter, Precision Silverhawk
fuel system, all fittings and hoses, silicone rocker cover gaskets,
fully balanced, new Lycoming cylinders, re-worked, ported and flowed,
your choice of custom paint (at no additional cost) assembled tested and
crated.
Upgrades include the following:
Airflow Performance FM-200 A fuel system
B&C lightweight starter
Electronic ignition
B&C alternator and regulator
Chrome rocker covers and intake pipes
High performance modifications include:
BPE Cold Air Induction
Airflow Performance FM-300 A fuel system
9:1 compression cast pistons
9.5:1 compression forged pistons
Weldon Boost Pump
Notice the upgrades are all bolt on accessories and are not so much as
HOW we build our engines, just the differences in what type of
accessories we are comfortable supporting. There are no additions in
this column that increases horsepower. But if you notice the high
performance modifications, these items DO increase the HP and are
something to consider when ordering your engine.
We are seriously considering posting our prices on our site. I'm afraid
if we do, then I won't get to hear from you guys as much and I'll be
forced to go out in the shop and work! :-)
Regards,
Allen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv10builder
Subject: RV10-List: (BPE) Lycoming Engine
Allen,
I was already impressed with BPE's reputation in the industry, but
figured that came with a significantly larger price. The figure you
quoted is very attractive (especially given the extras). Balancing is
especially important to me given I intend to go with the two blade
Hartzel. Do you have a spec sheet already drawn up that contains
details on the equipment list, options, etc? Given the anticipated
price increase for '06 you mentioned, what deposit do you require? When
is the balance due?
Sorry Allen - (and the rest of you folks) this maybe better discussed of
list. It just seems that many of us at the point of making an engine
decision and I dearly love this topic!
Brian Sutherland
rv10builder@bellsouth.net
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-N104BS
Nashville, TN
40308 (Fuselage connected to tailcone!) Now where did I put that
baggage door?
----- Original Message -----
From: BPA <mailto:BPA@bpaengines.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet!
:-) I am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and
quality. Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of
a crate engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost
effective choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked
about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all
are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build
quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA
industry and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops
to build your engine, you are going to get a quality product.
While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several
performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting,
porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here
at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features.
We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say
is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of
upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options
and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal
at best.
Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the
program have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs.
Labor is probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We
have done some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted
our pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without
sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard
IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price
differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders,
Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included,
silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a
full power run.
If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since
September, we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price
saving tip for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to
June of 06, go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year.
Historically, price increases have come on January 1.
Allen Barrett
BPE, Inc.
www.barrettpreceisionengines.com
<http://www.barrettpreceisionengines.com/>
(918) 835-1089
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 8:53 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Brian, if you knew the differences between the Mattituck TMX540
and BPA's product, you would know the price difference and answer your
own question. It's a mater of choice, feature and quality. Now don't
forget a Forsling Exhaust System while you are at the Apples and Oranges
comparison. I am sure Alan would agree quietly on the side. You will
get what you pay for.
John - $00.02
=09
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv10builder
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 6:34 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Not sure there really is much of a difference (except in price):
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/190317-1.html
I myself intend to place my deposit in January and am leaning
towards the Mattituck given the significant difference in price posted
on their respective sites. I would however go for a BPA engine if the
price was comparable. (Alan, you out there?) : )
Brian Sutherland
Nashville, TN
Fuselage connected to tailcone!
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-N104BS
Do not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Nikolaos Napoli <mailto:owl40188@yahoo.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:41 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Back to the engine question. I am getting close to
ordering one and noticed that Vans prices went up considerably for the
IO540. Does anyone know if this has the new tapped technology?
Has anyone compared the TMX540 (Mattituck) to the
Aerosport?
Thanks
Nikon
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Wing order + components |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
I did not see fuel level senders mentioned, which are another item for
the list.
I believe Randy has his OAT in the fuselage fresh air inlet and William
Curtis is putting it somewhere on the wing (per his electrical schematic)
Larry Rosen
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> I did the duckworks HID while I was working on that part of the
> wing. It will be easier to get the nutplates and mounting bracket in
> place before you rivet on the leading edge. I even put nutplates in
> place in the opposite wing in case I decide to add a second kit down
> the road.
>
> Don't forget position lights also. If you go with the AoA from Rob,
> you can also get the wing kit and put that in at the same time as the
> duckworks HID. It sits just aft of the HID. Others have already
> mentioned the Pitot and AP. Just don't forget to order the AP
> servo for the opposite wing if you get Van's Aileron trim.
>
> For fuel tanks you could do a couple things. First, JetA or any
> other heavy fuel needs positive ventilation so you will need to work
> that out. I would talk to the guys at Deltahawk for specifics.
> Second, if you go with an engine conversion like Eggs Subaru you will
> need a return line for the fuel as they are constant supply. There is
> info on Egg's website but basically it's just an additional bulkhead
> in the -5 size in the vicinity of the vent connected to a tube that
> dumps into the second bay from the supply line so you don't get
> bubbles. If you are considering it you can put in the bulkhead and
> just cap it if you don't use it.
>
> Michael Sausen
> -10 #352 Flaps
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs
> Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 12:16 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Wing order + components
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
>
> Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I
> might need to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget
> something or have to wait to continue building because I'm waiting for
> a part.
>
> So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;)
>
> The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or
> impossible after the wing is closed:
>
> Conduit / bushings for the wiring
> AOA / pitot tubing
> coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas aileron trim kit
>
> A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet,
> and suspecting there will be some interesting things happening in the
> next 2 - 3 years before I'm ready for an engine installation, what
> would I need to do differently to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were
> to use something that required JET-A as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is
> there a way to build the tanks / plumbing so that you could use any of
> the above? Or does it not matter, and the real question is quantity?
> (I'll leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice
> discussion for much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;)
>
> If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the
> AOA indicator that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of
> them or can they share the same ports in the wings the way a
> pitot-static system can? I like the display of the AOA pro but a lot
> of the glass units have that feature built in so it would be nice to
> have them both working.
>
> Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring
> does it require?
>
> I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to
> install before or after the wing is closed?
>
> Thanks
> James
> #40400
> elevators
>
>
> ====================================
> RV10-List Email Forum -
> more:
> bsp;
> ====================================
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | Lycoming Engines |
I heard 295 bhp, honest hardcopy Dyno on the Barrett delivered IO-540X.
So get ready for the "Wrath of Kahn" on exceeding "260 MAX" or getting
even slightly better fuel economy when compliant operations do not
exceed 260. Just install a throttle detent at 260 and mark the
additional push as "Military" on the quadrant. But, remember you can
always throttle back on the unmarked quadrant another 11% and remain
within airframe manufacturer Hard Numbers. A fringe benefit is the
reduced harmonic vibration through the glass cockpit as a result of the
individual component balancing. How many posters know the difference in
weight variance with a Mattituck - Lycoming supplied internal component
vs. a Barrett balanced and installed one? Friction, balance and
volumetric efficiency are the key issues. Heat dissipation is another.
Do your research... your talking about a chunk of change. Your flavor
may vary.
John - $00.02
DO NOT ARCHIVE
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Here's a question, with all the porting, balancing, flow matching, etc
what is the honest HP you normally see on the Dyno for your IO-540-X
Engine. I know the stuff makes a difference, just like to quantify
things for the $$$. I expect it's unofficially above 260.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Flaps
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I
am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality.
Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate
engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective
choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE,
Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the
Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality
engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and
support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your
engine, you are going to get a quality product.
While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several
performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting,
porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here
at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features.
We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say
is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of
upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options
and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal
at best.
Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program
have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is
probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done
some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our
pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without
sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard
IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price
differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders,
Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included,
silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a
full power run.
If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September,
we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip
for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06,
go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year.
Historically, price increases have come on January 1.
Allen Barrett
BPE, Inc.
www.barrettpreceisionengines.com
<http://www.barrettpreceisionengines.com/>
(918) 835-1089
Message 43
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| Subject: | Lycoming Engines |
This is a trick question :-) Porting means to remove material in
strategic locations in the intake and exhaust port to improve volumetric
efficiency in a cylinder. Flow matching means to get each cylinder to
flow the equal amount of volume of air at the same amount of valve lift.
This is measured on several types of flow bench. It is very labor
intensive and is done by hand. In addition, proper valve to seat
geometry is critical to the life of a cylinder. We place a three angle
cut on the seats that is part of the
equalization of the cylinder, and it also confirms valve to seat
geometry
An unbalanced rotor (read crankshaft) will cause vibration and stress in
the rotor and its supporting structure. Balancing results in minimized
vibration, minimized audible and signal noises, operating stresses,
operator annoyance and fatigue and power losses. Notice I stated
minimizes power losses, not makes more horsepower. All of these
improvements to the engine help the engine develop the amount of
horsepower that it should to begin with (but frequently does not.)
Several customers have purchased new OEM engines and sent them here for
disassembly, balance, re-work. We have repeatedly seen a 5-8 true hp
gain over rated power. The claim by some that they see HP increases by
15% simply by balancing or porting cylinders is bogus and should be
ignored.
Allen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Here's a question, with all the porting, balancing, flow matching, etc
what is the honest HP you normally see on the Dyno for your IO-540-X
Engine. I know the stuff makes a difference, just like to quantify
things for the $$$. I expect it's unofficially above 260.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Flaps
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I
am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality.
Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate
engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective
choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE,
Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the
Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality
engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and
support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your
engine, you are going to get a quality product.
While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several
performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting,
porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here
at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features.
We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say
is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of
upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options
and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal
at best.
Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program
have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is
probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done
some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our
pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without
sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard
IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price
differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders,
Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included,
silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a
full power run.
If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September,
we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip
for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06,
go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year.
Historically, price increases have come on January 1.
Allen Barrett
BPE, Inc.
www.barrettpreceisionengines.com
<http://www.barrettpreceisionengines.com/>
(918) 835-1089
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Brian, if you knew the differences between the Mattituck TMX540 and
BPA's product, you would know the price difference and answer your own
question. It's a mater of choice, feature and quality. Now don't
forget a Forsling Exhaust System while you are at the Apples and Oranges
comparison. I am sure Alan would agree quietly on the side. You will
get what you pay for.
John - $00.02
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv10builder
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Not sure there really is much of a difference (except in price):
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/190317-1.html
I myself intend to place my deposit in January and am leaning towards
the Mattituck given the significant difference in price posted on their
respective sites. I would however go for a BPA engine if the price was
comparable. (Alan, you out there?) : )
Brian Sutherland
Nashville, TN
Fuselage connected to tailcone!
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-N104BS
Do not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Nikolaos Napoli <mailto:owl40188@yahoo.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:41 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Back to the engine question. I am getting close to ordering one
and noticed that Vans prices went up considerably for the IO540. Does
anyone know if this has the new tapped technology?
Has anyone compared the TMX540 (Mattituck) to the Aerosport?
Thanks
Nikon
Message 44
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| Subject: | Lycoming Engines |
This is true. But, it was not done with a stock engine. It had High
compression pistons and other enhancements.
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
I heard 295 bhp, honest hardcopy Dyno on the Barrett delivered IO-540X.
So get ready for the "Wrath of Kahn" on exceeding "260 MAX" or getting
even slightly better fuel economy when compliant operations do not
exceed 260. Just install a throttle detent at 260 and mark the
additional push as "Military" on the quadrant. But, remember you can
always throttle back on the unmarked quadrant another 11% and remain
within airframe manufacturer Hard Numbers. A fringe benefit is the
reduced harmonic vibration through the glass cockpit as a result of the
individual component balancing. How many posters know the difference in
weight variance with a Mattituck - Lycoming supplied internal component
vs. a Barrett balanced and installed one? Friction, balance and
volumetric efficiency are the key issues. Heat dissipation is another.
Do your research... your talking about a chunk of change. Your flavor
may vary.
John - $00.02
DO NOT ARCHIVE
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Here's a question, with all the porting, balancing, flow matching, etc
what is the honest HP you normally see on the Dyno for your IO-540-X
Engine. I know the stuff makes a difference, just like to quantify
things for the $$$. I expect it's unofficially above 260.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Flaps
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I
am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality.
Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate
engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective
choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE,
Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the
Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality
engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and
support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your
engine, you are going to get a quality product.
While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several
performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting,
porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here
at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features.
We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say
is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of
upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options
and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal
at best.
Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program
have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is
probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done
some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our
pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without
sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard
IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price
differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders,
Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included,
silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a
full power run.
If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September,
we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip
for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06,
go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year.
Historically, price increases have come on January 1.
Allen Barrett
BPE, Inc.
www.barrettpreceisionengines.com
<http://www.barrettpreceisionengines.com/>
(918) 835-1089
Message 45
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|
| Subject: | RE: Lycoming Engines |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@core.com>
I guess I did not fully understand the question. I guess we would
need to know what is included in the Matituck engine at 34,150 vs. the
Aerosport or BPA engine at $37,500 and $38,300 respectively. All the
major components would be the same as they would be all new Lycoming
parts.
Here is my summary of the engine options so far:
Lyc(Airpower)- IO-540-D4A5 - $31,417 Factory rebuilt with core trade in
Lyc (Vans) - IO-540-D4A5 - $42,650 Certified Lycoming
Mattituck - TMXIO-540-X - $34,150 all new Clone
Aerosport - IO-540-X - $37,500 all new Clone
BPA - IO-540-X - $38,300 all new Clone
Lyc(Airpower)- O-540-E4A5 - $27,000 Factory rebuilt with core trade in
Lyc (Vans) - O-540-A4D5 - $37,500 Certified Lycoming
Mattituck - TMXO-540-X - $33,250 all new Clone
Aerosport - O-540-X - $36,000 all new Clone
BPA - O-540-X - $??,000 all new Clone
>Is there a reason that people are talking about the Aerosport
>engine at $37,500 over the Teledyne engine at $34,150?
William Curtis
40237 - wings
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
Message 46
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| Subject: | Lycoming Engines |
From our experience we would not desire any added horsepower at sea level.
This thing takes off and climbs like a bat out of.it performs very well. It
also performs very well at altitudes as high as 18,000 feet. We have not
taken it higher because we don't want to use the oxygen mask that that would
require (and only have one full mask as opposed to the oximizers
(supplemental Oxygen). It would be nice, however, to have some extra
horsepower at those altitudes for added speed in thin air. The main
question that I would have is this: how does this performance affect fuel
burn. With fuel burns of 7gph at 17,500 with TAS of 185mph, it would be
nice to see 205mph, but would that require an 11% increase in fuel burn to
achieve this with 295hp? From where I am sitting, it all comes down to fuel
burn while maintaining reasonable speeds. How many miles per gallon? I
have heard that with the 210HP Continental you really won't get better fuel
burn. In fact, it probably would not reach the altitudes that the Lycoming
will, which means that it won't be able to clear the weather that 18,000
feet will allow (yes, the weather does get that high, but it is much less
dense), which means that even if it had better mileage per gallon, you would
end up flying more miles dodging the thunderstorms. In summary, if gaining
10% in cruising speed at altitude means a 15% increase in fuel burn, count
me out. If a 10% increase in cruise is obtained with a 10% or less increase
in fuel burn, then it starts paying for itself really quickly.
On a similar note, does anybody know if it is possible to burn mogas in an
IO-540 with low compression pistons? That would start saving money as well
if it were possible and wouldn't increase fuel burn to achieve a given power
output.
Another question for BPA is, does your engine include balanced injectors.
You can save fuel if you aren't wasting some cooling one cylinder more than
another. If you are running all of them at the exact same temperature, then
you will be able to save on fuel. Although I know it is impossible to
achieve perfection, it can be improved upon.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
This is true. But, it was not done with a stock engine. It had High
compression pistons and other enhancements.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
I heard 295 bhp, honest hardcopy Dyno on the Barrett delivered IO-540X. So
get ready for the "Wrath of Kahn" on exceeding "260 MAX" or getting even
slightly better fuel economy when compliant operations do not exceed 260.
Just install a throttle detent at 260 and mark the additional push as
"Military" on the quadrant. But, remember you can always throttle back on
the unmarked quadrant another 11% and remain within airframe manufacturer
Hard Numbers. A fringe benefit is the reduced harmonic vibration through
the glass cockpit as a result of the individual component balancing. How
many posters know the difference in weight variance with a Mattituck -
Lycoming supplied internal component vs. a Barrett balanced and installed
one? Friction, balance and volumetric efficiency are the key issues. Heat
dissipation is another.
Do your research. your talking about a chunk of change. Your flavor may
vary.
John - $00.02
DO NOT ARCHIVE
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Here's a question, with all the porting, balancing, flow matching, etc what
is the honest HP you normally see on the Dyno for your IO-540-X Engine. I
know the stuff makes a difference, just like to quantify things for the $$$.
I expect it's unofficially above 260.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Flaps
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I am in
agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear
the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans
makes the experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops
that are regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build
very fine engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several
reasons. We build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to
the GA industry and support our products. If you choose any one of these
shops to build your engine, you are going to get a quality product.
While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance
enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and
polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build
our experimental engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the
right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can
purchase a basic engine and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have
an engine that is comparable in options and performance, you'll realize that
the price differences are minimal at best.
Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have
adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably
the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very
close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we
are very competitive with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality
that we are well known for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for
$38,300. A few of the price differences, include our balancing, port/flow
match on cylinders, Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and
hoses included, silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test,
including a full power run.
If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd
be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for
anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead
and order your engine before the end of the year. Historically, price
increases have come on January 1.
Allen Barrett
BPE, Inc.
www.barrettpreceisionengines.com <http://www.barrettpreceisionengines.com/>
(918) 835-1089
Message 47
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| Subject: | Lycoming Engines |
Good info indeed. I am planning high altitude cruise with the MH Oxy system myself
and glad to see the fuel burn down there. Balanced injectors is the same
as flow matched which, I believe, BPA has. I think you run into problems with
Mogas at those altitudes because of the vapor pressure? (can't think of the
word I want here). Anyway, same problem that causes vapor lock . I'm sure Allen
can enlighten us a little better.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Flaps
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
From our experience we would not desire any added horsepower at sea level. This
thing takes off and climbs like a bat out of...it performs very well. It also
performs very well at altitudes as high as 18,000 feet. We have not taken
it higher because we don't want to use the oxygen mask that that would require
(and only have one full mask as opposed to the oximizers (supplemental Oxygen).
It would be nice, however, to have some extra horsepower at those altitudes
for added speed in thin air. The main question that I would have is this: how
does this performance affect fuel burn. With fuel burns of 7gph at 17,500
with TAS of 185mph, it would be nice to see 205mph, but would that require an
11% increase in fuel burn to achieve this with 295hp? From where I am sitting,
it all comes down to fuel burn while maintaining reasonable speeds. How many
miles per gallon? I have heard that with the 210HP Continental you really won't
get better fuel burn. In fact, it probably would not reach the altitudes
that the Lycoming will, which means that it won't be able to clear the weather
that 18,000 feet will allow (yes, the weather does get that high, but it is
much less dense), which means that even if it had better mileage per gallon, you
would end up flying more miles dodging the thunderstorms. In summary, if gaining
10% in cruising speed at altitude means a 15% increase in fuel burn, count
me out. If a 10% increase in cruise is obtained with a 10% or less increase
in fuel burn, then it starts paying for itself really quickly.
On a similar note, does anybody know if it is possible to burn mogas in an IO-540
with low compression pistons? That would start saving money as well if it
were possible and wouldn't increase fuel burn to achieve a given power output.
Another question for BPA is, does your engine include balanced injectors. You
can save fuel if you aren't wasting some cooling one cylinder more than another.
If you are running all of them at the exact same temperature, then you will
be able to save on fuel. Although I know it is impossible to achieve perfection,
it can be improved upon.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
This is true. But, it was not done with a stock engine. It had High compression
pistons and other enhancements.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
I heard 295 bhp, honest hardcopy Dyno on the Barrett delivered IO-540X. So get
ready for the "Wrath of Kahn" on exceeding "260 MAX" or getting even slightly
better fuel economy when compliant operations do not exceed 260. Just install
a throttle detent at 260 and mark the additional push as "Military" on the quadrant.
But, remember you can always throttle back on the unmarked quadrant another
11% and remain within airframe manufacturer Hard Numbers. A fringe benefit
is the reduced harmonic vibration through the glass cockpit as a result of
the individual component balancing. How many posters know the difference in
weight variance with a Mattituck - Lycoming supplied internal component vs. a
Barrett balanced and installed one? Friction, balance and volumetric efficiency
are the key issues. Heat dissipation is another.
Do your research... your talking about a chunk of change. Your flavor may vary.
John - $00.02
DO NOT ARCHIVE
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Here's a question, with all the porting, balancing, flow matching, etc what is
the honest HP you normally see on the Dyno for your IO-540-X Engine. I know the
stuff makes a difference, just like to quantify things for the $$$. I expect
it's unofficially above 260.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Flaps
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I am in agreement
with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear the air
a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans makes the
experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops that are
regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine
engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We
build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry
and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your
engine, you are going to get a quality product.
While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance enhancing
upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and polishing, etc
etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build our experimental
engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the right way to build
an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can purchase a basic engine
and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable
in options and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are
minimal at best.
Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have adjusted
their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably the biggest
cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very close evaluation
of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we are very competitive
with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality that we are well known
for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the
price differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, Champion
plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, silicon rocker
box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a full power run.
If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd be happy
to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for anyone - if
you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead and order your
engine before the end of the year. Historically, price increases have come
on January 1.
Allen Barrett
BPE, Inc.
www.barrettpreceisionengines.com <http://www.barrettpreceisionengines.com/>
(918) 835-1089
Message 48
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|
| Subject: | Lycoming Engines |
Have you guys heard about my powerplant wish?
Two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating concentric-shaft
propellers. Yeah, baby!
TDT
40025
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Good info indeed. I am planning high altitude cruise with the MH Oxy
system myself and glad to see the fuel burn down there. Balanced
injectors is the same as flow matched which, I believe, BPA has. I
think you run into problems with Mogas at those altitudes because of the
vapor pressure? (can't think of the word I want here). Anyway, same
problem that causes vapor lock . I'm sure Allen can enlighten us a
little better.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Flaps
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
From our experience we would not desire any added horsepower at sea
level. This thing takes off and climbs like a bat out of...it performs
very well. It also performs very well at altitudes as high as 18,000
feet. We have not taken it higher because we don't want to use the
oxygen mask that that would require (and only have one full mask as
opposed to the oximizers (supplemental Oxygen). It would be nice,
however, to have some extra horsepower at those altitudes for added
speed in thin air. The main question that I would have is this: how
does this performance affect fuel burn. With fuel burns of 7gph at
17,500 with TAS of 185mph, it would be nice to see 205mph, but would
that require an 11% increase in fuel burn to achieve this with 295hp?
From where I am sitting, it all comes down to fuel burn while
maintaining reasonable speeds. How many miles per gallon? I have heard
that with the 210HP Continental you really won't get better fuel burn.
In fact, it probably would not reach the altitudes that the Lycoming
will, which means that it won't be able to clear the weather that 18,000
feet will allow (yes, the weather does get that high, but it is much
less dense), which means that even if it had better mileage per gallon,
you would end up flying more miles dodging the thunderstorms. In
summary, if gaining 10% in cruising speed at altitude means a 15%
increase in fuel burn, count me out. If a 10% increase in cruise is
obtained with a 10% or less increase in fuel burn, then it starts paying
for itself really quickly.
On a similar note, does anybody know if it is possible to burn mogas in
an IO-540 with low compression pistons? That would start saving money
as well if it were possible and wouldn't increase fuel burn to achieve a
given power output.
Another question for BPA is, does your engine include balanced
injectors. You can save fuel if you aren't wasting some cooling one
cylinder more than another. If you are running all of them at the exact
same temperature, then you will be able to save on fuel. Although I
know it is impossible to achieve perfection, it can be improved upon.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
This is true. But, it was not done with a stock engine. It had High
compression pistons and other enhancements.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
I heard 295 bhp, honest hardcopy Dyno on the Barrett delivered IO-540X.
So get ready for the "Wrath of Kahn" on exceeding "260 MAX" or getting
even slightly better fuel economy when compliant operations do not
exceed 260. Just install a throttle detent at 260 and mark the
additional push as "Military" on the quadrant. But, remember you can
always throttle back on the unmarked quadrant another 11% and remain
within airframe manufacturer Hard Numbers. A fringe benefit is the
reduced harmonic vibration through the glass cockpit as a result of the
individual component balancing. How many posters know the difference in
weight variance with a Mattituck - Lycoming supplied internal component
vs. a Barrett balanced and installed one? Friction, balance and
volumetric efficiency are the key issues. Heat dissipation is another.
Do your research... your talking about a chunk of change. Your flavor
may vary.
John - $00.02
DO NOT ARCHIVE
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Here's a question, with all the porting, balancing, flow matching, etc
what is the honest HP you normally see on the Dyno for your IO-540-X
Engine. I know the stuff makes a difference, just like to quantify
things for the $$$. I expect it's unofficially above 260.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Flaps
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I
am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality.
Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate
engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective
choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE,
Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the
Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality
engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and
support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your
engine, you are going to get a quality product.
While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several
performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting,
porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here
at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features.
We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say
is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of
upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options
and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal
at best.
Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program
have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is
probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done
some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our
pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without
sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard
IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price
differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders,
Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included,
silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a
full power run.
If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September,
we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip
for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06,
go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year.
Historically, price increases have come on January 1.
Allen Barrett
BPE, Inc.
www.barrettpreceisionengines.com
<http://www.barrettpreceisionengines.com/>
(918) 835-1089
Message 49
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|
| Subject: | Re: Lycoming Engines |
Van's would never approve of it. That would total 270 hp. :-)
Regards,
Jim Ayers
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 10/07/2005 3:47:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Tdawson@avidyne.com writes:
Have you guys heard about my powerplant wish?
Two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating concentric-shaft propellers.
Yeah, baby!
TDT
40025
Message 50
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|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Lycoming Engines |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I'm still catching up on all the recent posts, but here's my
reply to the question below:
I spoke with Bart and he assured me that my crankshaft was not
going to be one that was ground undersized at all. It was a
crankshaft that is at brand new limits. Everything in the engine
will be at new limits.
I agree that there would seem to be some piece of mind in having
a new crank. I very much think that way about most purchases.
With the recent Lycoming crank problems though, and the AD's
being expanded further and further, I guess actually in this
particular case I kind of feel better having a known good
crank. Strange, huh?
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
William Curtis wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" <wcurtis@core.com>
>
> What is the $37,500 for, one of their overhauls or a clone? Ive
> always questioned the wisdom of paying 80-90% of the cost of a new
> engine from Vans, for an overhauled engine by ANY shop in the field.
> Before they started offering Lycoming clones, they were selling
> overhauled IO-540 engines for about $33,500 when Vans was selling new
> IO-540s for $38,990. 85% of the cost of new for a field overhauled
> engine. The peace of mind of a new crankshaft alone is worth the
> extra 15% ($5,500), at least to me. How many field overhauls include
> a new crankshaft. Tim, does you engine have a new crankshaft? All
> the porting and balancing in the world won't help when a questionable
> crank fails.
>
> If this is the cost for a clone IO-540 with ALL new parts on the other
> hand, that would be another story and a fair deal.
>
>
>>Have you seen the new prices on the Aerosport site? $37,500. Do you
>>think the number of RV-10 kits being built is driving up the price?
>
> I am
>
>>starting to look and the price increase are causing me to look at
>
> other
>
>>alternatives....maybe I will end up with a Subaru. But, I really
>
> want to
>
>>stay with the IO-540.
>
>
> William Curtis
> 40237 - wings
> http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 51
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|
| Subject: | Re: Wing order + components |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Sorry this won't address all your questions James, but regarding the
Duckworks kit, I think the duckworks kit may actually be easier to
install once the leading edge is completed. It won't matter a bit
if your wing is closed or not, as long as you can get the wing out
and lay it flat on the bench. It's a pretty easy install.
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
James Ochs wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
>
> Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I
> might need to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget
> something or have to wait to continue building because I'm waiting for a
> part.
>
> So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;)
> The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or
> impossible after the wing is closed:
>
> Conduit / bushings for the wiring
> AOA / pitot tubing
> coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas
> aileron trim kit
>
> A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet,
> and suspecting there will be some interesting things happening in the
> next 2 - 3 years before I'm ready for an engine installation, what would
> I need to do differently to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were to use
> something that required JET-A as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is there a
> way to build the tanks / plumbing so that you could use any of the
> above? Or does it not matter, and the real question is quantity? (I'll
> leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice discussion for
> much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;)
>
> If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the
> AOA indicator that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of
> them or can they share the same ports in the wings the way a
> pitot-static system can? I like the display of the AOA pro but a lot of
> the glass units have that feature built in so it would be nice to have
> them both working.
>
> Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring does
> it require?
>
> I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to
> install before or after the wing is closed?
>
> Thanks
> James
> #40400
> elevators
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 52
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|
| Subject: | Re: Wing order + components |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Very good call Bob, yes, the Pitot mount and AP servos are definitely
things to get before you close the wings. Regarding the pitot mount,
I've been getting nice comments from people regarding my mounting
location. Many people say "wish I would have known...", so for those
of you builders just coming up on that part of the kit, you may want
to consider mounting it in the first or 2nd bay from the wingtip
instead of the regular location. I've got good photos on my site.
Also, a tidbit....I closed my wings last weekend so I could paint them
and riveted in my Gretz mount. It was installed per-directions, and it
was so strong that I actually lifted up the outboard wing end by
lifting on the pitot mount. Good stuff, and very tough.
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>
> Only absolutely critical item is the pitot mount. Everything else can be added
after the wings are closed. It's certainly easier to put the AP roll servo
in berfore closing. Pitot tubing and snap bushings come w/the kit. If you go
the conduit route instead you'll need to do that before closing.
>
> Bob
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Fri Oct 07 10:16:29 2005
> Subject: RV10-List: Wing order + components
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
>
> Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I
> might need to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget
> something or have to wait to continue building because I'm waiting for a
> part.
>
> So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;)
>
> The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or
> impossible after the wing is closed:
>
> Conduit / bushings for the wiring
> AOA / pitot tubing
> coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas
> aileron trim kit
>
> A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet,
> and suspecting there will be some interesting things happening in the
> next 2 - 3 years before I'm ready for an engine installation, what would
> I need to do differently to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were to use
> something that required JET-A as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is there a
> way to build the tanks / plumbing so that you could use any of the
> above? Or does it not matter, and the real question is quantity? (I'll
> leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice discussion for
> much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;)
>
> If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the
> AOA indicator that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of
> them or can they share the same ports in the wings the way a
> pitot-static system can? I like the display of the AOA pro but a lot of
> the glass units have that feature built in so it would be nice to have
> them both working.
>
> Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring does
> it require?
>
> I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to
> install before or after the wing is closed?
>
> Thanks
> James
> #40400
> elevators
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: Wing order + components |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Michael,
You mentioned getting the opposite wing AP servo if you're using
Van's aileron trim. What are you saying, the aileron trim can't
mount in the Left wing? My wings are closed, but I figured I'd
mount that later.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> I did the duckworks HID while I was working on that part of the wing.
> It will be easier to get the nutplates and mounting bracket in place
> before you rivet on the leading edge. I even put nutplates in place in
> the opposite wing in case I decide to add a second kit down the road.
>
> Don't forget position lights also. If you go with the AoA from Rob,
> you can also get the wing kit and put that in at the same time as the
> duckworks HID. It sits just aft of the HID. Others have already
> mentioned the Pitot and AP. Just don't forget to order the AP servo for
> the opposite wing if you get Van's Aileron trim.
>
> For fuel tanks you could do a couple things. First, JetA or any other
> heavy fuel needs positive ventilation so you will need to work that
> out. I would talk to the guys at Deltahawk for specifics. Second, if
> you go with an engine conversion like Eggs Subaru you will need a return
> line for the fuel as they are constant supply. There is info on Egg's
> website but basically it's just an additional bulkhead in the -5 size in
> the vicinity of the vent connected to a tube that dumps into the second
> bay from the supply line so you don't get bubbles. If you are
> considering it you can put in the bulkhead and just cap it if you don't
> use it.
>
> Michael Sausen
> -10 #352 Flaps
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs
> Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 12:16 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Wing order + components
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs <jochs@froody.org>
>
> Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I
> might need to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget
> something or have to wait to continue building because I'm waiting for a
> part.
>
> So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;)
>
> The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or
> impossible after the wing is closed:
>
> Conduit / bushings for the wiring
> AOA / pitot tubing
> coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas aileron trim kit
>
> A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet,
> and suspecting there will be some interesting things happening in the
> next 2 - 3 years before I'm ready for an engine installation, what would
> I need to do differently to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were to use
> something that required JET-A as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is there a
> way to build the tanks / plumbing so that you could use any of the
> above? Or does it not matter, and the real question is quantity? (I'll
> leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice discussion for
> much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;)
>
> If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the
> AOA indicator that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of
> them or can they share the same ports in the wings the way a
> pitot-static system can? I like the display of the AOA pro but a lot of
> the glass units have that feature built in so it would be nice to have
> them both working.
>
> Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring does
> it require?
>
> I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to
> install before or after the wing is closed?
>
> Thanks
> James
> #40400
> elevators
>
>
>
> ====================================
> RV10-List Email Forum -
> more:
> bsp;
> ====================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 54
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Just wondering,
when assembling my 7A empennage I polished, anodised and primed every component
before assembly.
upon receiving my quick build kit and with regard to corrosion protection, I thought
that the quality of the priming job of the kit left a little to be desired,
granted the quality of riveting was A1.
Do any of the other members of the group have any reservations at all about going
the Quick Build route ?. I would like to hear your thoughts.
If it were not for this minor gripe I would go the A/B on my 10 or any other RV
in a heart beat - the saving in time alone makes the Q/K unbeatable value.
Paul Walter
Message 55
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| Subject: | Real time and cost to build? From a new subscriber |
You have great goals. Here is my recommendations to anyone building a RV10.
1 Go quick build unless you have a plane that you fly now or you are retired
and love to build. It will take months off of most peoples build times.
2 Plan on 150,000.00 for a good IFR platform. If you save a buck here and there,
great. you won't be upset when it comes in a little more.
3 Have the panel built by someone, anyone. It will cut 2 monthes off of the project.
I would also recommend that the person wiring the panel is also someone
who wires entire planes as well. If you do the airframe wiring yourself and
they are doing the panel, the wire gauges can all be worked out very easily. Don't
know what wire gets run for the pitot heat? Just ask them, they do it all
day long.
4 Get help. Deburing isn't hard and a local kid that want's to get involved in
the project, or as I lucked into a great retired guy that also want to build
a plane. The plane isn't hard to build but it does require the hours to be spent.
5 You must build at home or live in the hanger. Do not take the kids to socker
practice, do not go out to dinner more the 1 night a week. Do not cut the grass
until you absolutly have to. It is a major waste of time that could be better
spent working on the plane. Do not fix up the house, that can come after
the plane is built.
6 Oh one more thing. Leave the Web sites to someone else. There as some great
ones out there you can't compete with them, and it is time that would be better
spent reading the plans for tomorrows tasks.
7 If you want to build fast - don't prime. I primed and I would do it again but
I am not convinced it the best thing since sliced bread.
2200 hours slow build.
1800 hours QB.
I think one year is doable but you better stay away from that lawn or it will be
1 1/2 years. Randy
________________________________
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Real time and cost to build? From a new subscriber
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
Mike,
Good questions. A trip through the land of RV web sites will help you,
greatly. Also, search the archives. There are many references there as to
the time to build and costs.
I cannot do anything but give you a projected cost range that I came up with
for my purposes (IFR panel, new engine, etc), and that was between $120,000
to $140,000. I hope the estimated range is high; I doubt it.
But to me, the one thing that disturbed me about your post was the "need" to
get this done within a year or less. Randy, the first totally completed
RV-10 to fly, was finished in 20 months, with help, both in terms of
physical labor, but also in terms of subsections being farmed out, such as
the panel. (Randy can fill you in on exactly what were his shortcuts.)
Twenty months is fast, my friend. I expect to take between 24 and 48
months, depending if I, too, go QB, which is still being debated. For a
plane of this complexity, anything south of 24 months would be proud to crow
about, but less than 12? Please don't set that as your goal. This stuff is
doable, but it is not strictly a Lego or erector set.
By the way, I work on it each evening for 2 hours (when I'm not traveling on
business) and each and every weekend for at least 6 hours (when I'm not
being pulled away by others who don't understand the passion and addiction,
but whose needs must be recognized - none of us are total recluses, yet),
and there's no way that I could get it done in less time than Randy's 20
months. I have all the tools, and the requisite knowledge and skills, and
there's no way. In short, enjoy the process, build well and have some
fun...or, buy one already built. I'm sure there will be a few up for sale
soon.
My best,
John Jessen
40328 HS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Lee
Subject: RV10-List: Real time and cost to build? From a new subscriber
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Mike Lee" <miklleen@hotmail.com>
OK I am sure this has been asked before, but maybe someoneone could send me
copies of any list digests with information on this, or just reply directly.
I am ver seriously considering an RV-10 project. What I would like is
information from real builders on the following:
Assuming the following:
1) RV-10 Quick build kit
2) Builder has good mechanical aptitude and electonics experience.
3) Never built an airplane before, or any project of this size.
4) Planning to keep customizations to a minimum.
5) Need to keep costs down, planning on finding a used mid time engine, CS
prop, analog engine gauges, basic JPI engine monitor, will shell out $ for a
Garmin 530 / 430 combo and indicators.
6) Want an IFR platform (hence the 530 / 430 combo)
7) GPS / Nav coupled auto pilot with altitude hold.
8) Will paint myself, will have uphoulstry done.
9) Basic sound proofing.
10) Wingtip stobes, plus stobe beacon, otherwise standard lighting with taxi
/ landing light.
Can I get an estimate of build time and costs? What types of unexpected
costs that are not in the above are there?
Anyone else out there with similar goals / expectaions?
What are other builders doing to keep costs down?
I know I can save some $$ by buying a standard kit instead of a quick build,
but I have a need to have the aircraft done in less than a year, working
evenings and weekends.
THANKS!!!!! for any and all help!
Mike
Message 56
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| Subject: | FW: Group buy on covers. |
Yes. It is a 7" piece of tapered wood painted white. It is adjustable with a saw
and more paint. It is being modified about every 4th flight. I think it will
end up 4" tall by 1" front to back and 1/4" thick in the back of the rudder
and tapers down to nothing on the front. After that I will glass and paint in
a permanent piece. Most of my longer trips are on autopilot so the use of trim
other than elevator has not been needed. Randy
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Conti, Rick
Subject: RE: RV10-List: FW: Group buy on covers.
Randy,
I have surfed your site and watched your videos. Excellent job. Do you have a
rudder trim assembly on your 10?
Thank You
Rick Conti
office: 703-414-6141
cell: 571-215-6134
________________________________
From: Randy DeBauw [mailto:Randy@abros.com]
Subject: RV10-List: FW: Group buy on covers.
Here is a response from Abby on the light weight travel covers. Randy
________________________________
From: FLIGHTLINE INTERIORS [mailto:flightline@tds.net]
Subject: Fw: Group buy on covers.
----- Original Message -----
From: FLIGHTLINE INTERIORS <mailto:flightline@tds.net>
Subject: Re: Group buy on covers.
Sorry, I didn't even really answer your questions. I don't have it patterned
right now, but given a little time I could have it patterned. It is made of
Ripstop Nylon fabric. It would come with its own storage bag. They would
probably be somewhere around $225 each. Thanks, Abby
----- Original Message -----
From: Erdmann's <mailto:erdmannb@execpc.com>
To: FLIGHTLINE INTERIORS <mailto:flightline@tds.net>
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 7:47 AM
Subject: Fw: Group buy on covers.
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy's Abros mail <mailto:randy@abros.com>
To: erdmannb@execpc.com
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 1:20 PM
Subject: Group buy on covers.
The RV10 list is all a flutter with people wanting to be involved in a
group buy (my guess is 15 to 20) on canopy covers for the 10. They have been taking
to Bruce at Bruce's Covers. I think most don't want the heavy cover. I
think if you give your regular price and what it is made of and what includes
I can relay it to the group and give them an option. Thanks and I hope things
are will. Randy
Message 57
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| Subject: | Lycoming Engines |
Not if they were the Centurion 4.0 liters from the TT62. 261Kw each or
350 hp. It would total 700 just like a Lancair IVP with Walter
Turboprop.
John - KUAO
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
LessDragProd@aol.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Van's would never approve of it. That would total 270 hp. :-)
Regards,
Jim Ayers
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 10/07/2005 3:47:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Tdawson@avidyne.com writes:
Have you guys heard about my powerplant wish?
Two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating concentric-shaft
propellers. Yeah, baby!
TDT
40025
Message 58
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| Subject: | Lycoming Engines |
Visit the GAMI site and their work with BPE on the Continental IO-520
and IO-550 to learn more on the difficulty of using MOGAS at altitude.
Their solution is/was Turbo Normalized. You won't find them buying off
on the mogas idea.
John - KUAO
Do Not Archive
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines
Good info indeed. I am planning high altitude cruise with the MH Oxy
system myself and glad to see the fuel burn down there. Balanced
injectors is the same as flow matched which, I believe, BPA has. I
think you run into problems with Mogas at those altitudes because of the
vapor pressure? (can't think of the word I want here). Anyway, same
problem that causes vapor lock . I'm sure Allen can enlighten us a
little better.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Flaps
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