---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/07/05: 58 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:27 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (Paul Walter) 2. 02:55 AM - Engine (Paul Walter) 3. 05:01 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (Werner Schneider) 4. 05:08 AM - Re: aileron trim (Jesse Saint) 5. 05:32 AM - Re: aileron trim (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 6. 05:45 AM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (Rene Felker) 7. 05:57 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (Rick) 8. 06:42 AM - Re: Engine (Rhonda Bewley) 9. 06:44 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (Rick) 10. 06:48 AM - Avery Tool Sale (Larry Rosen) 11. 06:51 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (Larry Rosen) 12. 07:31 AM - TMXIO-540 (Jesse Saint) 13. 07:34 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com) 14. 07:59 AM - Aileron trim (Rick) 15. 08:28 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (William Curtis) 16. 08:28 AM - Re: Real time and cost to build? From a new subscriber (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com) 17. 08:30 AM - Re: TMXIO-540 (Perry Casson) 18. 08:48 AM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (Tim Dawson-Townsend) 19. 08:49 AM - (BPA) 20. 08:56 AM - Re: Aileron trim (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 21. 09:08 AM - Re: Aileron trim (Jesse Saint) 22. 09:13 AM - Re: Chelton Certification stuff (Tim Dawson-Townsend) 23. 09:36 AM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (Jesse Saint) 24. 09:48 AM - (BPE) Lycoming Engine (rv10builder) 25. 09:49 AM - Re: Chelton Certification stuff (Tim Olson) 26. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com) 27. 10:18 AM - Wing order + components (James Ochs) 28. 10:24 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (John W. Cox) 29. 10:35 AM - Re: Aileron trim (JOHN STARN) 30. 10:41 AM - Re: Wing order + components (Harris, Jeremy P) 31. 10:50 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (BPA) 32. 10:51 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (William Curtis) 33. 11:00 AM - Re: Lycoming Engines (William Curtis) 34. 11:02 AM - Re: Wing order + components (Condrey, Bob (US SSA)) 35. 11:46 AM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (Jesse Saint) 36. 12:18 PM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 37. 12:18 PM - Re: Wing order + components (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 38. 12:27 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 39. 12:46 PM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com) 40. 12:48 PM - Re: (BPE) Lycoming Engine (BPA) 41. 01:11 PM - Re: Wing order + components (Larry Rosen) 42. 01:11 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (John W. Cox) 43. 01:36 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (BPA) 44. 01:38 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com) 45. 01:42 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (William Curtis) 46. 02:47 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (Jesse Saint) 47. 03:26 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 48. 03:45 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com) 49. 04:14 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (LessDragProd@aol.com) 50. 06:51 PM - Re: Re: Lycoming Engines (Tim Olson) 51. 06:54 PM - Re: Wing order + components (Tim Olson) 52. 06:59 PM - Re: Wing order + components (Tim Olson) 53. 07:03 PM - Re: Wing order + components (Tim Olson) 54. 07:44 PM - Quick build (Paul Walter) 55. 08:58 PM - Re: Real time and cost to build? From a new subscriber (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of John Jessen) 56. 09:08 PM - Re: FW: Group buy on covers. (Randy DeBauw) 57. 10:04 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (John W. Cox) 58. 10:06 PM - Re: Lycoming Engines (owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:27:30 AM PST US From: "Paul Walter" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines --> RV10-List message posted by: "Paul Walter" just like some advice from the more experienced builders. When drilling out bothched solid rivets is the correct method to drill right through with an undersized drill and then crush end of shank and the drill countersunk recessed end with the 1/8 bit and punch remaining rivet out. I want the neatest method that will not damage skin or spar. Paul Walter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > Wow, didn't even notice that......$42,650 for a new Lyc now. > Hmmm.... Let's see.... Lycoming announces a new "experimental" > version of their engine at OSH, but it's only a couple thousand > less than the standard one. Then, the price jumps up about > $3,000 from Van's. (this isn't saying anything bad about Van's) > I'm wondering though....does that mean that in reality, the > new "kit" engine is now Van's old price, and the one Van's > is listing is actually the "certified" one? > > It just smells to me kind of like lycoming is pulling one > of those "On sale - 10% off!!" deals, after putting on a > 10%+ price increase. > > I was worried with the new kit ECI's coming out that my > aerosport purchase would have been paying a bit on the > high side....but at least this makes me feel even better > about the price I paid. > > You're right to look at that TMX540 though....that one > may be a great way to go. Aerosport got my order already, > so I didn't have a choice, but Aerosport has such a fantastic > reputation (and I can actually see it in the quality of care > they put into my engine) that I just won't feel bad about > that purchase. > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170 > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > Nikolaos Napoli wrote: >> Back to the engine question. I am getting close to ordering one and >> noticed that Vans prices went up considerably for the IO540. Does anyone >> know if this has the new tapped technology? >> Has anyone compared the TMX540 (Mattituck) to the Aerosport? >> Thanks >> Niko >> > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:55:21 AM PST US From: "Paul Walter" Subject: RV10-List: Engine As im not that experienced in regards to all of the lycoming engine models etc and realize Vans recomends 540. I thought i'd read that there are both 560 and 580 Lycoming models. Could these be fitted and are they the same engine block with larger bore or stroke and hence fit under cowl. I gues inrease in horse power would be a no no. Paul Walter ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:30 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines --> RV10-List message posted by: Werner Schneider Hello Paul, I can only talk for myself, I would not crush anything, I drill centred on the head a tad smaller then the shank is, then when I think I have drilled about the deep of the head, I wiggle a bit with the drill and normally the head breaks off then. The punch then is used to punch the rest (shank and formed head) out. If you crush the end you always will elongate the hole. You have to take care to drill however centred and I would recommend to practice this on a sample a few times. br Werner Paul Walter wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Paul Walter" > > just like some advice from the more experienced builders. When > drilling out bothched solid rivets is the correct method to drill > right through with an undersized drill and then crush end of shank and > the drill countersunk recessed end with the 1/8 bit and punch > remaining rivet out. I want the neatest method that will not damage > skin or spar. > > Paul Walter > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 5:23 AM > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines > > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson >> >> Wow, didn't even notice that......$42,650 for a new Lyc now. >> Hmmm.... Let's see.... Lycoming announces a new "experimental" >> version of their engine at OSH, but it's only a couple thousand >> less than the standard one. Then, the price jumps up about >> $3,000 from Van's. (this isn't saying anything bad about Van's) >> I'm wondering though....does that mean that in reality, the >> new "kit" engine is now Van's old price, and the one Van's >> is listing is actually the "certified" one? >> >> It just smells to me kind of like lycoming is pulling one >> of those "On sale - 10% off!!" deals, after putting on a >> 10%+ price increase. >> >> I was worried with the new kit ECI's coming out that my >> aerosport purchase would have been paying a bit on the >> high side....but at least this makes me feel even better >> about the price I paid. >> >> You're right to look at that TMX540 though....that one >> may be a great way to go. Aerosport got my order already, >> so I didn't have a choice, but Aerosport has such a fantastic >> reputation (and I can actually see it in the quality of care >> they put into my engine) that I just won't feel bad about >> that purchase. >> >> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170 >> DO NOT ARCHIVE >> >> >> Nikolaos Napoli wrote: >> >>> Back to the engine question. I am getting close to ordering one and >>> noticed that Vans prices went up considerably for the IO540. Does >>> anyone know if this has the new tapped technology? >>> Has anyone compared the TMX540 (Mattituck) to the Aerosport? >>> Thanks >>> Niko >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:08:23 AM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: aileron trim Can't answer that. I don't know anything about Van's kit. All I know is that we paid $175 each for our trims, installed them in 2 hours each after the plane had already been flying, and they work great. Beyond that, I can't say much. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ddddsp1@juno.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: aileron trim The trim servo kit from Van's is $275. Why is AEROTRIM servo trim kit only $175? DEAN ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:14 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: aileron trim From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" There's not much to it, just a MAC servo, a tab, and linkage, but I'm surprised as well. I believe it was much more than the Van's trim at EAA when I looked. Must have a cheaper version for experimental. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Flaps ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ddddsp1@juno.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: aileron trim The trim servo kit from Van's is $275. Why is AEROTRIM servo trim kit only $175? DEAN ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:58 AM PST US From: "Rene Felker" Subject: RE: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines Have you seen the new prices on the Aerosport site? $37,500. Do you think the number of RV-10 kits being built is driving up the price? I am starting to look and the price increase are causing me to look at other alternatives....maybe I will end up with a Subaru. But, I really want to stay with the IO-540. Rene' Felker 40322 N423CF Wings - 90% Fuslage - 10% _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis Subject: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines Yup, they raised the price of the 260HP IO-540 from $38,990 to $42,650, an over $3,600 increase. However they now have an offering of the 250HP O-540 for $37,500. Other than fuel injection, anyone know what else is different between these engines? It would seem you could get the O and add fuel injection for a lot less than $5,150 or FADEC for a little more. I think I'll be looking at the IO-540 clone from Aerosport. Maybe in these days of $5 avgas, they will reconsider the 210HP Continental IO-360. >Back to the engine question. I am getting close to ordering one and noticed >that Vans prices went up considerably for the IO540. Does anyone know if >this has the new tapped technology? William Curtis 40237 - wings http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:09 AM PST US From: Rick Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick Paul, It will take some practice but here are a few tips. If you look at the head of each rivet there is a tiny dimple for you bit to start in, make sure your right on it when you get going. I use the same size drill as the rivet. Start slow and strive to keep the bit perpendicular to the head as possible. Once you get into the head about the depth of the drill bit plus a tad more, stop and use a punch either 3/32 or 1/8 inch inserted in to the hole to snap off the head. Now you may find that the hole will just round out instead of snapping off, it happens so next time go a little deeper. Now it's decision time. If you can back up the area behind the shop head, use the punch to drive out the remaining piece of the rivet, many times if you have snapped the head off just right it will come out easily. Or you can drill out the last piece, key here is to get that bit to follow your original hole VERY CLOSE if not exact. A very slightly undersized bit can help but not really needed as much as a good round of drilling out bad rivets to practice. I don't recommend using the bit to snap off the head, I tried twice, first time put a slight bend in the bit, and second time broke the tip. No need to waste bits and the sharp end of the punch works well to bite into the base of your hole to snap off the rivet head. I find that when I drill them out now, once the head is off I have almost removed the balance of the rivet or it comes out just before I get ready to snap off the head. Of course I have only drilled out bad rivets that other builders have set, not on my own airplane because I have not set a bad rivet yet :D. If Bob Kaufmann tries to say otherwise and point to that silly picture he has hanging in shop that he "alleges" is me drilling out a bad rivet on my RV-10 pay no attention, it's photoshopped. Rick S. 40185 Fuselage ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:17 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Engine From: "Rhonda Bewley" Lycoming does offer an experimental 580 engine, at 323 hp. It would not be suitable for the RV-10 however, because it is an angle head engine and is too wide for the standard cowling. We have built some for the higher powered aerobatic performers. Peter Besenyai flys one, and so does Patty Wagstaff. Rhonda Barrett-Bewley Barrett Precision Engines, Inc. 2870-B N. Sheridan Rd. Tulsa, OK 74115 (918) 835-1089 phone ((18) 835-1754 fax www.barrettprecisionengines.com ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walter Subject: RV10-List: Engine As im not that experienced in regards to all of the lycoming engine models etc and realize Vans recomends 540. I thought i'd read that there are both 560 and 580 Lycoming models. Could these be fitted and are they the same engine block with larger bore or stroke and hence fit under cowl. I gues inrease in horse power would be a no no. Paul Walter ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:44 AM PST US From: Rick Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list - No Plain-Text Section --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:04 AM PST US From: Larry Rosen Subject: RV10-List: Avery Tool Sale --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen Avery Tools is having a sale on tools. 5% off and free shipping. The free shipping would help if you need only a few tools. I have no relation to Avery, but in my experience they provide high quality tools. Larry Rosen N205EN (reserved) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:16 AM PST US From: Larry Rosen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen "Start slow" I turn the chuck by hand to get the drill started, and then after the bit starts to bite then I slowly pull the trigger. Larry Rosen N205EN (reserved) Rick wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick > >Paul, > >It will take some practice but here are a few tips. If you look at the head of each rivet there is a tiny dimple for you bit to start in, make sure your right on it when you get going. I use the same size drill as the rivet. Start slow and strive to keep the bit perpendicular to the head as possible. Once you get into the head about the depth of the drill bit plus a tad more, stop and use a punch either 3/32 or 1/8 inch inserted in to the hole to snap off the head. Now you may find that the hole will just round out instead of snapping off, it happens so next time go a little deeper. Now it's decision time. If you can back up the area behind the shop head, use the punch to drive out the remaining piece of the rivet, many times if you have snapped the head off just right it will come out easily. Or you can drill out the last piece, key here is to get that bit to follow your original hole VERY CLOSE if not exact. > >A very slightly undersized bit can help but not really needed as much as a good round of drilling out bad rivets to practice. I don't recommend using the bit to snap off the head, I tried twice, first time put a slight bend in the bit, and second time broke the tip. No need to waste bits and the sharp end of the punch works well to bite into the base of your hole to snap off the rivet head. > >I find that when I drill them out now, once the head is off I have almost removed the balance of the rivet or it comes out just before I get ready to snap off the head. Of course I have only drilled out bad rivets that other builders have set, not on my own airplane because I have not set a bad rivet yet :D. If Bob Kaufmann tries to say otherwise and point to that silly picture he has hanging in shop that he "alleges" is me drilling out a bad rivet on my RV-10 pay no attention, it's photoshopped. > >Rick S. >40185 >Fuselage > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:08 AM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 Is there a reason that people are talking about the Aerosport engine at $37,500 over the Teledyne engine at $34,150? Am I missing something? What are the differences that make it worth spending $3,200 more for the Aerosport engine? By the way, my dad is up in MN right now, flew up there yesterday. He made it 917 statute miles on 50 gallons with headwinds. Our experience has been that Van's fuel burn numbers are conservative. Of course, they only list numbers up to 8,000 feet, at which altitude it burns a lot. We burn about 10.5gph at 10,500 with true airspeeds between 185 and 195mph. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:18 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your engine, you are going to get a quality product. While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal at best. Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a full power run. If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year. Historically, price increases have come on January 1. Allen Barrett BPE, Inc. www.barrettpreceisionengines.com (918) 835-1089 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Brian, if you knew the differences between the Mattituck TMX540 and BPA's product, you would know the price difference and answer your own question. It's a mater of choice, feature and quality. Now don't forget a Forsling Exhaust System while you are at the Apples and Oranges comparison. I am sure Alan would agree quietly on the side. You will get what you pay for. John - $00.02 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv10builder Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Not sure there really is much of a difference (except in price): http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/190317-1.html I myself intend to place my deposit in January and am leaning towards the Mattituck given the significant difference in price posted on their respective sites. I would however go for a BPA engine if the price was comparable. (Alan, you out there?) : ) Brian Sutherland Nashville, TN Fuselage connected to tailcone! http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-N104BS Do not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Nikolaos Napoli To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:41 AM Subject: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Back to the engine question. I am getting close to ordering one and noticed that Vans prices went up considerably for the IO540. Does anyone know if this has the new tapped technology? Has anyone compared the TMX540 (Mattituck) to the Aerosport? Thanks Nikon ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:01 AM PST US From: Rick Subject: RV10-List: Aileron trim DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list - No Plain-Text Section --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:35 AM PST US From: "William Curtis" Subject: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines --> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" What is the $37,500 for, one of their overhauls or a clone? Ive always questioned the wisdom of paying 80-90% of the cost of a new engine from Vans, for an overhauled engine by ANY shop in the field. Before they started offering Lycoming clones, they were selling overhauled IO-540 engines for about $33,500 when Vans was selling new IO-540s for $38,990. 85% of the cost of new for a field overhauled engine. The peace of mind of a new crankshaft alone is worth the extra 15% ($5,500), at least to me. How many field overhauls include a new crankshaft. Tim, does you engine have a new crankshaft? All the porting and balancing in the world won't help when a questionable crank fails. If this is the cost for a clone IO-540 with ALL new parts on the other hand, that would be another story and a fair deal. >Have you seen the new prices on the Aerosport site? $37,500. Do you >think the number of RV-10 kits being built is driving up the price? I am >starting to look and the price increase are causing me to look at other >alternatives....maybe I will end up with a Subaru. But, I really want to >stay with the IO-540. William Curtis 40237 - wings http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:35 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Real time and cost to build? From a new subscriber Bob, Are you a member of the Fly Rotary Group? "Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net]" Three of us on the list are putting Rotary's in the 10. Bobby Hughes 40116 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob.kaufmann Subject: RE: RV10-List: Real time and cost to build? From a new subscriber My nickel after talking to Misty pilot, is IFR, rotary 20B, all glass, and under 100 Bob K ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GenGrumpy@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Real time and cost to build? From a new subscriber I'll throw a nickel on the grass (as the old fighter pilot song goes). Going the QB route, with some great (and RV experienced helpers). At least a year to complete, some of which is lead time for Van to deliver QB kits. With new engine (rather than some clunker rebuild), new prop and REAL IFR package (with backup), probably $150k is a good ball park. You can do it for less, but with increased risk. I figure.....$120k and a 2nd class machine that is VFR or $150k and a first class machine with reall IFR capability. And you'll be head to head with the Cirrus and Lancair bubbas, who have $500k+ in their machines. It's your call..... Probably get strafed by others for my opinion. Grumpy 40404 In a message dated 10/5/2005 9:29:49 PM Central Standard Time, jjessen@rcn.com writes: --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" =09 Mike, =09 Good questions. A trip through the land of RV web sites will help you, greatly. Also, search the archives. There are many references there as to the time to build and costs. =09 I cannot do anything but give you a projected cost range that I came up with between $120,000 to $140,000. I hope the estimated range is high; I doubt it. =09 But to me, the one thing that disturbed me about your post was the "need" to get this done within a year or less. Randy, the first totally completed RV-10 to fly, was finished in 20 months, with help, both in terms of physical labor, but also in terms of subsections being farmed out, such as the panel. (Randy can fill you in on exactly what were his shortcuts.) Twenty months is fast, my friend. I expect to take between 24 and 48 months, depending if I, too, go QB, which is still being debated. For a plane of this complexity, anything south of 24 months would be proud to crow about, but less than 12? Please don't set that as your goal. This stuff is doable, but it is not strictly a Lego or erector set. =09 traveling on business) and each and every weekend for at least 6 hours (when I'm not being pulled away by others who don't understand the passion and addiction, but whose needs must be recognized - none of us are total recluses, yet), and there's no way that I could get it done in less time than Randy's 20 months. I have all the tools, and the requisite knowledge and skills, and there's no way. In short, enjoy the process, build well and have some fun...or, buy one already built. I'm sure there will be a few up for sale soon. =09 My best, =09 John Jessen 40328 HS =09 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Lee Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 4:49 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: Real time and cost to build? From a new subscriber =09 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Mike Lee" =09 OK I am sure this has been asked before, but maybe someoneone could send me copies of any list digests with information on this, or just reply directly. =09 I am ver seriously considering an RV-10 project. What I would like is information from real builders on the following: =09 Assuming the following: 1) RV-10 Quick build kit 2) Builder has good mechanical aptitude and electonics experience. 3) Never built an airplane before, or any project of this size. 4) Planning to keep customizations to a minimum. 5) Need to keep costs down, planning on finding a used mid time engine, CS prop, analog engine gauges, basic JPI engine monitor, will shell out $ for a Garmin 530 / 430 combo and indicators. 6) Want an IFR platform (hence the 530 / 430 combo) 7) GPS / Nav coupled auto pilot with altitude hold. 8) Will paint myself, will have uphoulstry done. 9) Basic sound proofing. 10) Wingtip stobes, plus stobe beacon, otherwise standard lighting with taxi / landing light. =09 Can I get an estimate of build time and costs? What types of unexpected costs that are not in the above are there? =09 Anyone else out there with similar goals / expectaions? =09 What are other builders doing to keep costs down? =09 I know I can save some $$ by buying a standard kit instead of a quick build, but I have a need to have the aircraft done in less than a year, working evenings and weekends. =09 THANKS!!!!! for any and all help! =09 Mike ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:06 AM PST US From: Perry Casson Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 --> RV10-List message posted by: Perry Casson I think getting the 1yr warranty for the TMXIO-540 upgraded to match the 3 year offered by Aerosport is at least $2K ($2K is what they charge for the 360 engine) so that gets it closer. Timely topic - going to have to make the big leap to get into the queue for one of these darn things soon. Perry Casson Regina Canada Jesse Saint wrote: > Is there a reason that people are talking about the Aerosport engine > at $37,500 over the Teledyne engine at $34,150? Am I missing > something? What are the differences that make it worth spending $3,200 > more for the Aerosport engine? > > By the way, my dad is up in MN right now, flew up there yesterday. He > made it 917 statute miles on 50 gallons with headwinds. Our experience > has been that Vans fuel burn numbers are conservative. Of course, > they only list numbers up to 8,000 feet, at which altitude it burns a > lot. We burn about 10.5gph at 10,500 with true airspeeds between 185 > and 195mph. > > Jesse Saint > > I-TEC, Inc. > > jesse@itecusa.org > > www.itecusa.org > > W: 352-465-4545 > > C: 352-427-0285 > > F: 815-377-3694 > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:09 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" Ironically, with Lycoming's track record, some may prefer a good "old" crankshaft to a brand-new one from Lycoming . . . he he TDT 40025 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis Subject: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines --> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" What is the $37,500 for, one of their overhauls or a clone? I've always questioned the wisdom of paying 80-90% of the cost of a new engine from Van's, for an overhauled engine by ANY shop in the field. Before they started offering Lycoming clones, they were selling overhauled IO-540 engines for about $33,500 when Van's was selling new IO-540s for $38,990. 85% of the cost of new for a field overhauled engine. The peace of mind of a new crankshaft alone is worth the extra 15% ($5,500), at least to me. How many field overhauls include a new crankshaft. Tim, does you engine have a new crankshaft? All the porting and balancing in the world won't help when a questionable crank fails. If this is the cost for a clone IO-540 with ALL new parts on the other hand, that would be another story and a fair deal. >Have you seen the new prices on the Aerosport site? $37,500. Do you >think the number of RV-10 kits being built is driving up the price? I am >starting to look and the price increase are causing me to look at other >alternatives....maybe I will end up with a Subaru. But, I really want to >stay with the IO-540. William Curtis 40237 - wings http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:39 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: From: "BPA" 0.20 FROM_NO_LOWER From address has no lower-case characters List, Jesse brought to my attention the wrong URL listing on my earlier post. Our website address is www.barrettprecisionengines.com . Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused. Allen Barrett BPE, Inc. ________________________________ I've stopped 37,350 spam messages. You can too! One month FREE spam protection at www.cloudmark.com ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:16 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Aileron trim From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" The Aerotrim unit requires you to cut a small square out of the control surface. It then sit's in that hole as a complete unit acting as the access plate. You then attach a small tab to the trailing edge of the control surface and the linkage then controls that. You would route the control wires out the back of the control surface into the aircraft. It is a very straight forward system when you want to add trim to an existing system that has no other option. For me the clean install of the Van's system inside the wing, moving the whole surface, is a better option. I may still consider Aerotrim for the rudder should the need arise. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Flaps ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Subject: RV10-List: Aileron trim --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick Jesse, Did your aileron trim require cutting into the aileron itself or does is move the entire roll control? Rick s. 40185 Fuselage ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:46 AM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Aileron trim --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick You have to cut a square hole in the control surface and it operates a hinge that you rivet onto the trailing edge of the aileron and/or rudder. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Subject: RV10-List: Aileron trim Jesse, Did your aileron trim require cutting into the aileron itself or does is move the entire roll control? Rick s. 40185 Fuselage ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:19 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Chelton Certification stuff From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" Tim: I think that article was written in a slightly confusing way, mixing up Chelton-specific news with general advances in synthetic terrain technology that have also been ocurring. I haven't heard of any NASA-Chelton work down at Langley. Langley has been doing a lot of work with Collins, whose "Syn Vis" system was installed on the NASA 757, so that's probably what they're talking about in the second part of that article. TDT 40025 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: Chelton Certification stuff --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson In case you don't watch the AvWeb news, they have a smal bit of info on Chelton's latest moves here: http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/484-full.html Apparently the Chelton system is now certified to cover all large part 23 aircraft, and they're even installing them on some big airliners. Also some cool stuff where they added FLIR and cool stuff. It's pretty exciting to see where they're taking all of this technology. I just can't wait to actually fly behind it. If I finish the build and fly-off before SNF, I'll have to meet some of you and maybe do a few rides. Tim -- Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170 DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:54 AM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" Both of those prices are for brand new clone engines. I think they are even certified Lycoming parts, just not a certified data plate. It was my understanding from Lycoming after speaking to them at Oshkosh that their certified engines are now shipping with the roller lifters, which might account for the difference in price. That is just what they told me, but I don't understand all of the details about that. I think $34,500 is a decent price for a new engine considering what certified ones cost. Aerosport has been charging about $1,000 less than that for an overhauled one. I wonder what the insurance ramifications would be for an experimental new engine. Any thoughts? Thanks. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis Subject: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines --> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" What is the $37,500 for, one of their overhauls or a clone? I've always questioned the wisdom of paying 80-90% of the cost of a new engine from Van's, for an overhauled engine by ANY shop in the field. Before they started offering Lycoming clones, they were selling overhauled IO-540 engines for about $33,500 when Van's was selling new IO-540s for $38,990. 85% of the cost of new for a field overhauled engine. The peace of mind of a new crankshaft alone is worth the extra 15% ($5,500), at least to me. How many field overhauls include a new crankshaft. Tim, does you engine have a new crankshaft? All the porting and balancing in the world won't help when a questionable crank fails. If this is the cost for a clone IO-540 with ALL new parts on the other hand, that would be another story and a fair deal. >Have you seen the new prices on the Aerosport site? $37,500. Do you >think the number of RV-10 kits being built is driving up the price? I am >starting to look and the price increase are causing me to look at other >alternatives....maybe I will end up with a Subaru. But, I really want to >stay with the IO-540. William Curtis 40237 - wings http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:11 AM PST US From: "rv10builder" Subject: RV10-List: (BPE) Lycoming Engine Allen, I was already impressed with BPE's reputation in the industry, but figured that came with a significantly larger price. The figure you quoted is very attractive (especially given the extras). Balancing is especially important to me given I intend to go with the two blade Hartzel. Do you have a spec sheet already drawn up that contains details on the equipment list, options, etc? Given the anticipated price increase for '06 you mentioned, what deposit do you require? When is the balance due? Sorry Allen - (and the rest of you folks) this maybe better discussed of list. It just seems that many of us at the point of making an engine decision and I dearly love this topic! Brian Sutherland rv10builder@bellsouth.net http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-N104BS Nashville, TN 40308 (Fuselage connected to tailcone!) Now where did I put that baggage door? ----- Original Message ----- From: BPA To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 9:32 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! J I am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your engine, you are going to get a quality product. While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal at best. Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a full power run. If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year. Historically, price increases have come on January 1. Allen Barrett BPE, Inc. www.barrettpreceisionengines.com (918) 835-1089 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 8:53 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Brian, if you knew the differences between the Mattituck TMX540 and BPA's product, you would know the price difference and answer your own question. It's a mater of choice, feature and quality. Now don't forget a Forsling Exhaust System while you are at the Apples and Oranges comparison. I am sure Alan would agree quietly on the side. You will get what you pay for. John - $00.02 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv10builder Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 6:34 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Not sure there really is much of a difference (except in price): http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/190317-1.html I myself intend to place my deposit in January and am leaning towards the Mattituck given the significant difference in price posted on their respective sites. I would however go for a BPA engine if the price was comparable. (Alan, you out there?) : ) Brian Sutherland Nashville, TN Fuselage connected to tailcone! http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-N104BS Do not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Nikolaos Napoli To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:41 AM Subject: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Back to the engine question. I am getting close to ordering one and noticed that Vans prices went up considerably for the IO540. Does anyone know if this has the new tapped technology? Has anyone compared the TMX540 (Mattituck) to the Aerosport? Thanks Nikon ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:59 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Chelton Certification stuff --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Ahhh, typical news media....our local newspaper is the worst. Well, maybe it's not Chelton, but no matter who's stuff is in the 757, it's very cool that the margins betweens "us" and "them" are getting much smaller! Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170 DO NOT ARCHIVE Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" > > > Tim: > > I think that article was written in a slightly confusing way, mixing up > Chelton-specific news with general advances in synthetic terrain > technology that have also been ocurring. I haven't heard of any > NASA-Chelton work down at Langley. Langley has been doing a lot of work > with Collins, whose "Syn Vis" system was installed on the NASA 757, so > that's probably what they're talking about in the second part of that > article. > > TDT > 40025 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 12:19 AM > To: RV10 > Subject: RV10-List: Chelton Certification stuff > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > In case you don't watch the AvWeb news, they have a smal > bit of info on Chelton's latest moves here: > > http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/484-full.html > > Apparently the Chelton system is now certified to cover all > large part 23 aircraft, and they're even installing them > on some big airliners. Also some cool stuff where they added > FLIR and cool stuff. It's pretty exciting to see where > they're taking all of this technology. I just can't > wait to actually fly behind it. > > If I finish the build and fly-off before SNF, I'll have to > meet some of you and maybe do a few rides. > > Tim ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:21 AM PST US From: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines There is the extra 15 hours of test period for non-certified engine/prop. The fuel could cost $700 and up for that extra time. Doug Preston ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:40 AM PST US From: James Ochs Subject: RV10-List: Wing order + components --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I might need to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget something or have to wait to continue building because I'm waiting for a part. So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;) The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or impossible after the wing is closed: Conduit / bushings for the wiring AOA / pitot tubing coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas aileron trim kit A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet, and suspecting there will be some interesting things happening in the next 2 - 3 years before I'm ready for an engine installation, what would I need to do differently to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were to use something that required JET-A as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is there a way to build the tanks / plumbing so that you could use any of the above? Or does it not matter, and the real question is quantity? (I'll leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice discussion for much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;) If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the AOA indicator that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of them or can they share the same ports in the wings the way a pitot-static system can? I like the display of the AOA pro but a lot of the glass units have that feature built in so it would be nice to have them both working. Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring does it require? I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to install before or after the wing is closed? Thanks James #40400 elevators ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:55 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines From: "John W. Cox" PS. A plug on the Barrett Cold Induction Option and Forsling Tuned Exhaust are important areas for consideration by the mass of RV-10 builders. Many of whom would look to a Subie or Innodyne before fully understanding the approved Firewall Forward choices (Insurable) that fit with VANS cowl and mount. Since you are listening and posting. Thanks for the data. Any chance that the cowl mod you are working on would allow an IO-580X to be hung? John - KUAO ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your engine, you are going to get a quality product. While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal at best. Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a full power run. If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year. Historically, price increases have come on January 1. Allen Barrett BPE, Inc. www.barrettpreceisionengines.com (918) 835-1089 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Brian, if you knew the differences between the Mattituck TMX540 and BPA's product, you would know the price difference and answer your own question. It's a mater of choice, feature and quality. Now don't forget a Forsling Exhaust System while you are at the Apples and Oranges comparison. I am sure Alan would agree quietly on the side. You will get what you pay for. John - $00.02 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:26 AM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Aileron trim How does one cut a small square hole ??? Glad you asked. AFTER I drilled out a round hole, used Dremel disk, bits & then a file to create a somewhat square hole an ole hand showed me his "nibbling tool". Ya start with a 7/16" drilled hole. Insert the (Aircraft Spruce p/n 12-10400 page 548) nibbler and cut away. Have used it many times where I didn't want to take the chance of having a grinding disk, wheel or bit "jump & run". Great for those "odd" shaped holes or corners, trimming inside for a perfect fit. For $16.75 it works wonders and it's a great pilot gag gift. Without the instructions given it's riot to watch someone try to figger out what it is, how it works and what it's for. Wonderful for that "know it all" at the airport. Works on up to 18 Ga steel. KABONG ----- Original Message ----- From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 8:53 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Aileron trim The Aerotrim unit requires you to cut a small square out of the control surface. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:26 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Wing order + components From: "Harris, Jeremy P" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Harris, Jeremy P" Re- Wing Parts to have on hand Autopilot servo / wiring if you are going to mount in the wings! -----Original Message----- From: James Ochs [mailto:jochs@froody.org] Subject: RV10-List: Wing order + components --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I might need to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget something or have to wait to continue building because I'm waiting for a part. So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;) The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or impossible after the wing is closed: Conduit / bushings for the wiring AOA / pitot tubing coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas aileron trim kit A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet, and suspecting there will be some interesting things happening in the next 2 - 3 years before I'm ready for an engine installation, what would I need to do differently to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were to use something that required JET-A as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is there a way to build the tanks / plumbing so that you could use any of the above? Or does it not matter, and the real question is quantity? (I'll leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice discussion for much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;) If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the AOA indicator that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of them or can they share the same ports in the wings the way a pitot-static system can? I like the display of the AOA pro but a lot of the glass units have that feature built in so it would be nice to have them both working. Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring does it require? I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to install before or after the wing is closed? Thanks James #40400 elevators ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:38 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines From: "BPA" BPE's Cold Air Induction WILL work for the IO-580, IO-540 parallel and IO-540 Angle head engines respectfully, However, because of the width of both the angle head I0-540 and IO-580, the cowling is being designed to work with the parallel head IO-540. I'm sure some folks are interested in the angle head engines for the RV-10, but I haven't heard of it being done at this time. Allen Barrett BPE, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines PS. A plug on the Barrett Cold Induction Option and Forsling Tuned Exhaust are important areas for consideration by the mass of RV-10 builders. Many of whom would look to a Subie or Innodyne before fully understanding the approved Firewall Forward choices (Insurable) that fit with VANS cowl and mount. Since you are listening and posting. Thanks for the data. Any chance that the cowl mod you are working on would allow an IO-580X to be hung? John - KUAO ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your engine, you are going to get a quality product. While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal at best. Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a full power run. If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year. Historically, price increases have come on January 1. Allen Barrett BPE, Inc. www.barrettpreceisionengines.com (918) 835-1089 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Brian, if you knew the differences between the Mattituck TMX540 and BPA's product, you would know the price difference and answer your own question. It's a mater of choice, feature and quality. Now don't forget a Forsling Exhaust System while you are at the Apples and Oranges comparison. I am sure Alan would agree quietly on the side. You will get what you pay for. John - $00.02 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:25 AM PST US From: "William Curtis" Subject: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines --> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" I think the $34,150 price from Lycoming is an overhauled cost with a core trade in. What is the value of a IO-540 core these days? $10-12K? >Is there a reason that people are talking about the Aerosport >engine at $37,500 over the Teledyne engine at $34,150? William Curtis http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:09 AM PST US From: "William Curtis" Subject: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines --> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" Allen, This is great information and I will now also consider the BPA IO-540- X. You should add this information and your price list to your web page and loose the music -IMHO. I think you would get some more converts as a result. Just a thought. >Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program >have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is >probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done >some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our >pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without >sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard >IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price >differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, >Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, >silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a >full power run ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wing order + components From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" Only absolutely critical item is the pitot mount. Everything else can be added after the wings are closed. It's certainly easier to put the AP roll servo in berfore closing. Pitot tubing and snap bushings come w/the kit. If you go the conduit route instead you'll need to do that before closing. Bob -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: Wing order + components --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I might need to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget something or have to wait to continue building because I'm waiting for a part. So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;) The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or impossible after the wing is closed: Conduit / bushings for the wiring AOA / pitot tubing coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas aileron trim kit A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet, and suspecting there will be some interesting things happening in the next 2 - 3 years before I'm ready for an engine installation, what would I need to do differently to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were to use something that required JET-A as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is there a way to build the tanks / plumbing so that you could use any of the above? Or does it not matter, and the real question is quantity? (I'll leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice discussion for much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;) If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the AOA indicator that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of them or can they share the same ports in the wings the way a pitot-static system can? I like the display of the AOA pro but a lot of the glass units have that feature built in so it would be nice to have them both working. Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring does it require? I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to install before or after the wing is closed? Thanks James #40400 elevators ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:13 AM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines I will quote the Mattituck website: As with all TMX series engines, the TMX-540 will be assembled using 100% new FAA approved and certified parts. The all new part TMX-540 includes the latest roller tappet technology available from Textron Lycoming. The TMXO-540 engine producing 250/260 horsepower is attractively priced at $33,250.00 outright and complete with new Unison/Slick magnetos, new Unison/Slick ignition harness, new Unison/Slick spark plugs, new lightweight Sky-Tec starter, new Lycoming fuel pump and a rebuilt Precision Airmotive carburetor. The TMXIO-540 engine producing 250/260 horsepower is attractively priced at $34,150.00 outright, complete with new Unison/Slick magnetos, new Unison/Slick ignition harness, new Unison/Slick spark plugs, new lightweight Sky-Tec starter, new Lycoming fuel pump and a complete new Precision Airmotive SilverHawk EX or Airflow Performance EX fuel injection system. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis Subject: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines --> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" I think the $34,150 price from Lycoming is an overhauled cost with a core trade in. What is the value of a IO-540 core these days? $10-12K? >Is there a reason that people are talking about the Aerosport >engine at $37,500 over the Teledyne engine at $34,150? William Curtis http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:47 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Not if you are burning 10 or less GPH of mogas @$3 or less a gallon. Probably equals out or even comes in under the cost of Avgas for a cert engine combo. Michael Sausen -10 # 352 Flaps ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines There is the extra 15 hours of test period for non-certified engine/prop. The fuel could cost $700 and up for that extra time. Doug Preston ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:47 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Wing order + components From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" I did the duckworks HID while I was working on that part of the wing. It will be easier to get the nutplates and mounting bracket in place before you rivet on the leading edge. I even put nutplates in place in the opposite wing in case I decide to add a second kit down the road. Don't forget position lights also. If you go with the AoA from Rob, you can also get the wing kit and put that in at the same time as the duckworks HID. It sits just aft of the HID. Others have already mentioned the Pitot and AP. Just don't forget to order the AP servo for the opposite wing if you get Van's Aileron trim. For fuel tanks you could do a couple things. First, JetA or any other heavy fuel needs positive ventilation so you will need to work that out. I would talk to the guys at Deltahawk for specifics. Second, if you go with an engine conversion like Eggs Subaru you will need a return line for the fuel as they are constant supply. There is info on Egg's website but basically it's just an additional bulkhead in the -5 size in the vicinity of the vent connected to a tube that dumps into the second bay from the supply line so you don't get bubbles. If you are considering it you can put in the bulkhead and just cap it if you don't use it. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Flaps -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs Subject: RV10-List: Wing order + components --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I might need to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget something or have to wait to continue building because I'm waiting for a part. So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;) The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or impossible after the wing is closed: Conduit / bushings for the wiring AOA / pitot tubing coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas aileron trim kit A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet, and suspecting there will be some interesting things happening in the next 2 - 3 years before I'm ready for an engine installation, what would I need to do differently to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were to use something that required JET-A as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is there a way to build the tanks / plumbing so that you could use any of the above? Or does it not matter, and the real question is quantity? (I'll leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice discussion for much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;) If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the AOA indicator that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of them or can they share the same ports in the wings the way a pitot-static system can? I like the display of the AOA pro but a lot of the glass units have that feature built in so it would be nice to have them both working. Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring does it require? I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to install before or after the wing is closed? Thanks James #40400 elevators ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:21 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Here's a question, with all the porting, balancing, flow matching, etc what is the honest HP you normally see on the Dyno for your IO-540-X Engine. I know the stuff makes a difference, just like to quantify things for the $$$. I expect it's unofficially above 260. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Flaps ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your engine, you are going to get a quality product. While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal at best. Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a full power run. If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year. Historically, price increases have come on January 1. Allen Barrett BPE, Inc. www.barrettpreceisionengines.com (918) 835-1089 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Brian, if you knew the differences between the Mattituck TMX540 and BPA's product, you would know the price difference and answer your own question. It's a mater of choice, feature and quality. Now don't forget a Forsling Exhaust System while you are at the Apples and Oranges comparison. I am sure Alan would agree quietly on the side. You will get what you pay for. John - $00.02 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv10builder Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Not sure there really is much of a difference (except in price): http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/190317-1.html I myself intend to place my deposit in January and am leaning towards the Mattituck given the significant difference in price posted on their respective sites. I would however go for a BPA engine if the price was comparable. (Alan, you out there?) : ) Brian Sutherland Nashville, TN Fuselage connected to tailcone! http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-N104BS Do not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Nikolaos Napoli To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:41 AM Subject: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Back to the engine question. I am getting close to ordering one and noticed that Vans prices went up considerably for the IO540. Does anyone know if this has the new tapped technology? Has anyone compared the TMX540 (Mattituck) to the Aerosport? Thanks Nikon ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:33 PM PST US From: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines I am not up to speed on the mogas situation. Thought the IO-540 had to run 100LL, unless maybe u run the lowest compression pistons. I do want the power so plan to run higher compression. Will have to research that when time comes. Doug DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:21 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: (BPE) Lycoming Engine From: "BPA" Brian, The IO-540-X WE provide comes with the roller cam and followers(of course), new Lycoming fuel pump, new Slick magnetos and harness, new Champion plugs, new lightweight Skytec starter, Precision Silverhawk fuel system, all fittings and hoses, silicone rocker cover gaskets, fully balanced, new Lycoming cylinders, re-worked, ported and flowed, your choice of custom paint (at no additional cost) assembled tested and crated. Upgrades include the following: Airflow Performance FM-200 A fuel system B&C lightweight starter Electronic ignition B&C alternator and regulator Chrome rocker covers and intake pipes High performance modifications include: BPE Cold Air Induction Airflow Performance FM-300 A fuel system 9:1 compression cast pistons 9.5:1 compression forged pistons Weldon Boost Pump Notice the upgrades are all bolt on accessories and are not so much as HOW we build our engines, just the differences in what type of accessories we are comfortable supporting. There are no additions in this column that increases horsepower. But if you notice the high performance modifications, these items DO increase the HP and are something to consider when ordering your engine. We are seriously considering posting our prices on our site. I'm afraid if we do, then I won't get to hear from you guys as much and I'll be forced to go out in the shop and work! :-) Regards, Allen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv10builder Subject: RV10-List: (BPE) Lycoming Engine Allen, I was already impressed with BPE's reputation in the industry, but figured that came with a significantly larger price. The figure you quoted is very attractive (especially given the extras). Balancing is especially important to me given I intend to go with the two blade Hartzel. Do you have a spec sheet already drawn up that contains details on the equipment list, options, etc? Given the anticipated price increase for '06 you mentioned, what deposit do you require? When is the balance due? Sorry Allen - (and the rest of you folks) this maybe better discussed of list. It just seems that many of us at the point of making an engine decision and I dearly love this topic! Brian Sutherland rv10builder@bellsouth.net http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-N104BS Nashville, TN 40308 (Fuselage connected to tailcone!) Now where did I put that baggage door? ----- Original Message ----- From: BPA To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 9:32 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your engine, you are going to get a quality product. While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal at best. Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a full power run. If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year. Historically, price increases have come on January 1. Allen Barrett BPE, Inc. www.barrettpreceisionengines.com (918) 835-1089 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 8:53 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Brian, if you knew the differences between the Mattituck TMX540 and BPA's product, you would know the price difference and answer your own question. It's a mater of choice, feature and quality. Now don't forget a Forsling Exhaust System while you are at the Apples and Oranges comparison. I am sure Alan would agree quietly on the side. You will get what you pay for. John - $00.02 =09 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv10builder Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 6:34 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Not sure there really is much of a difference (except in price): http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/190317-1.html I myself intend to place my deposit in January and am leaning towards the Mattituck given the significant difference in price posted on their respective sites. I would however go for a BPA engine if the price was comparable. (Alan, you out there?) : ) Brian Sutherland Nashville, TN Fuselage connected to tailcone! http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-N104BS Do not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Nikolaos Napoli To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:41 AM Subject: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Back to the engine question. I am getting close to ordering one and noticed that Vans prices went up considerably for the IO540. Does anyone know if this has the new tapped technology? Has anyone compared the TMX540 (Mattituck) to the Aerosport? Thanks Nikon ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:08 PM PST US From: Larry Rosen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wing order + components --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen I did not see fuel level senders mentioned, which are another item for the list. I believe Randy has his OAT in the fuselage fresh air inlet and William Curtis is putting it somewhere on the wing (per his electrical schematic) Larry Rosen RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: > I did the duckworks HID while I was working on that part of the > wing. It will be easier to get the nutplates and mounting bracket in > place before you rivet on the leading edge. I even put nutplates in > place in the opposite wing in case I decide to add a second kit down > the road. > > Don't forget position lights also. If you go with the AoA from Rob, > you can also get the wing kit and put that in at the same time as the > duckworks HID. It sits just aft of the HID. Others have already > mentioned the Pitot and AP. Just don't forget to order the AP > servo for the opposite wing if you get Van's Aileron trim. > > For fuel tanks you could do a couple things. First, JetA or any > other heavy fuel needs positive ventilation so you will need to work > that out. I would talk to the guys at Deltahawk for specifics. > Second, if you go with an engine conversion like Eggs Subaru you will > need a return line for the fuel as they are constant supply. There is > info on Egg's website but basically it's just an additional bulkhead > in the -5 size in the vicinity of the vent connected to a tube that > dumps into the second bay from the supply line so you don't get > bubbles. If you are considering it you can put in the bulkhead and > just cap it if you don't use it. > > Michael Sausen > -10 #352 Flaps > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs > Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 12:16 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Wing order + components > > --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs > > Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I > might need to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget > something or have to wait to continue building because I'm waiting for > a part. > > So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;) > > The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or > impossible after the wing is closed: > > Conduit / bushings for the wiring > AOA / pitot tubing > coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas aileron trim kit > > A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet, > and suspecting there will be some interesting things happening in the > next 2 - 3 years before I'm ready for an engine installation, what > would I need to do differently to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were > to use something that required JET-A as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is > there a way to build the tanks / plumbing so that you could use any of > the above? Or does it not matter, and the real question is quantity? > (I'll leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice > discussion for much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;) > > If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the > AOA indicator that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of > them or can they share the same ports in the wings the way a > pitot-static system can? I like the display of the AOA pro but a lot > of the glass units have that feature built in so it would be nice to > have them both working. > > Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring > does it require? > > I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to > install before or after the wing is closed? > > Thanks > James > #40400 > elevators > > > ==================================== > RV10-List Email Forum - > more: > bsp; > ==================================== > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:08 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines From: "John W. Cox" I heard 295 bhp, honest hardcopy Dyno on the Barrett delivered IO-540X. So get ready for the "Wrath of Kahn" on exceeding "260 MAX" or getting even slightly better fuel economy when compliant operations do not exceed 260. Just install a throttle detent at 260 and mark the additional push as "Military" on the quadrant. But, remember you can always throttle back on the unmarked quadrant another 11% and remain within airframe manufacturer Hard Numbers. A fringe benefit is the reduced harmonic vibration through the glass cockpit as a result of the individual component balancing. How many posters know the difference in weight variance with a Mattituck - Lycoming supplied internal component vs. a Barrett balanced and installed one? Friction, balance and volumetric efficiency are the key issues. Heat dissipation is another. Do your research... your talking about a chunk of change. Your flavor may vary. John - $00.02 DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Here's a question, with all the porting, balancing, flow matching, etc what is the honest HP you normally see on the Dyno for your IO-540-X Engine. I know the stuff makes a difference, just like to quantify things for the $$$. I expect it's unofficially above 260. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Flaps ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your engine, you are going to get a quality product. While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal at best. Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a full power run. If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year. Historically, price increases have come on January 1. Allen Barrett BPE, Inc. www.barrettpreceisionengines.com (918) 835-1089 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:34 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines From: "BPA" This is a trick question :-) Porting means to remove material in strategic locations in the intake and exhaust port to improve volumetric efficiency in a cylinder. Flow matching means to get each cylinder to flow the equal amount of volume of air at the same amount of valve lift. This is measured on several types of flow bench. It is very labor intensive and is done by hand. In addition, proper valve to seat geometry is critical to the life of a cylinder. We place a three angle cut on the seats that is part of the equalization of the cylinder, and it also confirms valve to seat geometry An unbalanced rotor (read crankshaft) will cause vibration and stress in the rotor and its supporting structure. Balancing results in minimized vibration, minimized audible and signal noises, operating stresses, operator annoyance and fatigue and power losses. Notice I stated minimizes power losses, not makes more horsepower. All of these improvements to the engine help the engine develop the amount of horsepower that it should to begin with (but frequently does not.) Several customers have purchased new OEM engines and sent them here for disassembly, balance, re-work. We have repeatedly seen a 5-8 true hp gain over rated power. The claim by some that they see HP increases by 15% simply by balancing or porting cylinders is bogus and should be ignored. Allen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Here's a question, with all the porting, balancing, flow matching, etc what is the honest HP you normally see on the Dyno for your IO-540-X Engine. I know the stuff makes a difference, just like to quantify things for the $$$. I expect it's unofficially above 260. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Flaps ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your engine, you are going to get a quality product. While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal at best. Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a full power run. If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year. Historically, price increases have come on January 1. Allen Barrett BPE, Inc. www.barrettpreceisionengines.com (918) 835-1089 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Brian, if you knew the differences between the Mattituck TMX540 and BPA's product, you would know the price difference and answer your own question. It's a mater of choice, feature and quality. Now don't forget a Forsling Exhaust System while you are at the Apples and Oranges comparison. I am sure Alan would agree quietly on the side. You will get what you pay for. John - $00.02 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv10builder Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Not sure there really is much of a difference (except in price): http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/190317-1.html I myself intend to place my deposit in January and am leaning towards the Mattituck given the significant difference in price posted on their respective sites. I would however go for a BPA engine if the price was comparable. (Alan, you out there?) : ) Brian Sutherland Nashville, TN Fuselage connected to tailcone! http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-N104BS Do not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Nikolaos Napoli To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:41 AM Subject: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Back to the engine question. I am getting close to ordering one and noticed that Vans prices went up considerably for the IO540. Does anyone know if this has the new tapped technology? Has anyone compared the TMX540 (Mattituck) to the Aerosport? Thanks Nikon ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:52 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines This is true. But, it was not done with a stock engine. It had High compression pistons and other enhancements. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines I heard 295 bhp, honest hardcopy Dyno on the Barrett delivered IO-540X. So get ready for the "Wrath of Kahn" on exceeding "260 MAX" or getting even slightly better fuel economy when compliant operations do not exceed 260. Just install a throttle detent at 260 and mark the additional push as "Military" on the quadrant. But, remember you can always throttle back on the unmarked quadrant another 11% and remain within airframe manufacturer Hard Numbers. A fringe benefit is the reduced harmonic vibration through the glass cockpit as a result of the individual component balancing. How many posters know the difference in weight variance with a Mattituck - Lycoming supplied internal component vs. a Barrett balanced and installed one? Friction, balance and volumetric efficiency are the key issues. Heat dissipation is another. Do your research... your talking about a chunk of change. Your flavor may vary. John - $00.02 DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Here's a question, with all the porting, balancing, flow matching, etc what is the honest HP you normally see on the Dyno for your IO-540-X Engine. I know the stuff makes a difference, just like to quantify things for the $$$. I expect it's unofficially above 260. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Flaps ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your engine, you are going to get a quality product. While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal at best. Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a full power run. If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year. Historically, price increases have come on January 1. Allen Barrett BPE, Inc. www.barrettpreceisionengines.com (918) 835-1089 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:03 PM PST US From: "William Curtis" Subject: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines --> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" I guess I did not fully understand the question. I guess we would need to know what is included in the Matituck engine at 34,150 vs. the Aerosport or BPA engine at $37,500 and $38,300 respectively. All the major components would be the same as they would be all new Lycoming parts. Here is my summary of the engine options so far: Lyc(Airpower)- IO-540-D4A5 - $31,417 Factory rebuilt with core trade in Lyc (Vans) - IO-540-D4A5 - $42,650 Certified Lycoming Mattituck - TMXIO-540-X - $34,150 all new Clone Aerosport - IO-540-X - $37,500 all new Clone BPA - IO-540-X - $38,300 all new Clone Lyc(Airpower)- O-540-E4A5 - $27,000 Factory rebuilt with core trade in Lyc (Vans) - O-540-A4D5 - $37,500 Certified Lycoming Mattituck - TMXO-540-X - $33,250 all new Clone Aerosport - O-540-X - $36,000 all new Clone BPA - O-540-X - $??,000 all new Clone >Is there a reason that people are talking about the Aerosport >engine at $37,500 over the Teledyne engine at $34,150? William Curtis 40237 - wings http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:46 PM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines From our experience we would not desire any added horsepower at sea level. This thing takes off and climbs like a bat out of.it performs very well. It also performs very well at altitudes as high as 18,000 feet. We have not taken it higher because we don't want to use the oxygen mask that that would require (and only have one full mask as opposed to the oximizers (supplemental Oxygen). It would be nice, however, to have some extra horsepower at those altitudes for added speed in thin air. The main question that I would have is this: how does this performance affect fuel burn. With fuel burns of 7gph at 17,500 with TAS of 185mph, it would be nice to see 205mph, but would that require an 11% increase in fuel burn to achieve this with 295hp? From where I am sitting, it all comes down to fuel burn while maintaining reasonable speeds. How many miles per gallon? I have heard that with the 210HP Continental you really won't get better fuel burn. In fact, it probably would not reach the altitudes that the Lycoming will, which means that it won't be able to clear the weather that 18,000 feet will allow (yes, the weather does get that high, but it is much less dense), which means that even if it had better mileage per gallon, you would end up flying more miles dodging the thunderstorms. In summary, if gaining 10% in cruising speed at altitude means a 15% increase in fuel burn, count me out. If a 10% increase in cruise is obtained with a 10% or less increase in fuel burn, then it starts paying for itself really quickly. On a similar note, does anybody know if it is possible to burn mogas in an IO-540 with low compression pistons? That would start saving money as well if it were possible and wouldn't increase fuel burn to achieve a given power output. Another question for BPA is, does your engine include balanced injectors. You can save fuel if you aren't wasting some cooling one cylinder more than another. If you are running all of them at the exact same temperature, then you will be able to save on fuel. Although I know it is impossible to achieve perfection, it can be improved upon. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines This is true. But, it was not done with a stock engine. It had High compression pistons and other enhancements. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines I heard 295 bhp, honest hardcopy Dyno on the Barrett delivered IO-540X. So get ready for the "Wrath of Kahn" on exceeding "260 MAX" or getting even slightly better fuel economy when compliant operations do not exceed 260. Just install a throttle detent at 260 and mark the additional push as "Military" on the quadrant. But, remember you can always throttle back on the unmarked quadrant another 11% and remain within airframe manufacturer Hard Numbers. A fringe benefit is the reduced harmonic vibration through the glass cockpit as a result of the individual component balancing. How many posters know the difference in weight variance with a Mattituck - Lycoming supplied internal component vs. a Barrett balanced and installed one? Friction, balance and volumetric efficiency are the key issues. Heat dissipation is another. Do your research. your talking about a chunk of change. Your flavor may vary. John - $00.02 DO NOT ARCHIVE _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Here's a question, with all the porting, balancing, flow matching, etc what is the honest HP you normally see on the Dyno for your IO-540-X Engine. I know the stuff makes a difference, just like to quantify things for the $$$. I expect it's unofficially above 260. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Flaps _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your engine, you are going to get a quality product. While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal at best. Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a full power run. If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year. Historically, price increases have come on January 1. Allen Barrett BPE, Inc. www.barrettpreceisionengines.com (918) 835-1089 ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:00 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Good info indeed. I am planning high altitude cruise with the MH Oxy system myself and glad to see the fuel burn down there. Balanced injectors is the same as flow matched which, I believe, BPA has. I think you run into problems with Mogas at those altitudes because of the vapor pressure? (can't think of the word I want here). Anyway, same problem that causes vapor lock . I'm sure Allen can enlighten us a little better. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Flaps ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines From our experience we would not desire any added horsepower at sea level. This thing takes off and climbs like a bat out of...it performs very well. It also performs very well at altitudes as high as 18,000 feet. We have not taken it higher because we don't want to use the oxygen mask that that would require (and only have one full mask as opposed to the oximizers (supplemental Oxygen). It would be nice, however, to have some extra horsepower at those altitudes for added speed in thin air. The main question that I would have is this: how does this performance affect fuel burn. With fuel burns of 7gph at 17,500 with TAS of 185mph, it would be nice to see 205mph, but would that require an 11% increase in fuel burn to achieve this with 295hp? From where I am sitting, it all comes down to fuel burn while maintaining reasonable speeds. How many miles per gallon? I have heard that with the 210HP Continental you really won't get better fuel burn. In fact, it probably would not reach the altitudes that the Lycoming will, which means that it won't be able to clear the weather that 18,000 feet will allow (yes, the weather does get that high, but it is much less dense), which means that even if it had better mileage per gallon, you would end up flying more miles dodging the thunderstorms. In summary, if gaining 10% in cruising speed at altitude means a 15% increase in fuel burn, count me out. If a 10% increase in cruise is obtained with a 10% or less increase in fuel burn, then it starts paying for itself really quickly. On a similar note, does anybody know if it is possible to burn mogas in an IO-540 with low compression pistons? That would start saving money as well if it were possible and wouldn't increase fuel burn to achieve a given power output. Another question for BPA is, does your engine include balanced injectors. You can save fuel if you aren't wasting some cooling one cylinder more than another. If you are running all of them at the exact same temperature, then you will be able to save on fuel. Although I know it is impossible to achieve perfection, it can be improved upon. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines This is true. But, it was not done with a stock engine. It had High compression pistons and other enhancements. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines I heard 295 bhp, honest hardcopy Dyno on the Barrett delivered IO-540X. So get ready for the "Wrath of Kahn" on exceeding "260 MAX" or getting even slightly better fuel economy when compliant operations do not exceed 260. Just install a throttle detent at 260 and mark the additional push as "Military" on the quadrant. But, remember you can always throttle back on the unmarked quadrant another 11% and remain within airframe manufacturer Hard Numbers. A fringe benefit is the reduced harmonic vibration through the glass cockpit as a result of the individual component balancing. How many posters know the difference in weight variance with a Mattituck - Lycoming supplied internal component vs. a Barrett balanced and installed one? Friction, balance and volumetric efficiency are the key issues. Heat dissipation is another. Do your research... your talking about a chunk of change. Your flavor may vary. John - $00.02 DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Here's a question, with all the porting, balancing, flow matching, etc what is the honest HP you normally see on the Dyno for your IO-540-X Engine. I know the stuff makes a difference, just like to quantify things for the $$$. I expect it's unofficially above 260. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Flaps ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your engine, you are going to get a quality product. While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal at best. Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a full power run. If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year. Historically, price increases have come on January 1. Allen Barrett BPE, Inc. www.barrettpreceisionengines.com (918) 835-1089 ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:59 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Have you guys heard about my powerplant wish? Two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating concentric-shaft propellers. Yeah, baby! TDT 40025 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Good info indeed. I am planning high altitude cruise with the MH Oxy system myself and glad to see the fuel burn down there. Balanced injectors is the same as flow matched which, I believe, BPA has. I think you run into problems with Mogas at those altitudes because of the vapor pressure? (can't think of the word I want here). Anyway, same problem that causes vapor lock . I'm sure Allen can enlighten us a little better. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Flaps ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines From our experience we would not desire any added horsepower at sea level. This thing takes off and climbs like a bat out of...it performs very well. It also performs very well at altitudes as high as 18,000 feet. We have not taken it higher because we don't want to use the oxygen mask that that would require (and only have one full mask as opposed to the oximizers (supplemental Oxygen). It would be nice, however, to have some extra horsepower at those altitudes for added speed in thin air. The main question that I would have is this: how does this performance affect fuel burn. With fuel burns of 7gph at 17,500 with TAS of 185mph, it would be nice to see 205mph, but would that require an 11% increase in fuel burn to achieve this with 295hp? From where I am sitting, it all comes down to fuel burn while maintaining reasonable speeds. How many miles per gallon? I have heard that with the 210HP Continental you really won't get better fuel burn. In fact, it probably would not reach the altitudes that the Lycoming will, which means that it won't be able to clear the weather that 18,000 feet will allow (yes, the weather does get that high, but it is much less dense), which means that even if it had better mileage per gallon, you would end up flying more miles dodging the thunderstorms. In summary, if gaining 10% in cruising speed at altitude means a 15% increase in fuel burn, count me out. If a 10% increase in cruise is obtained with a 10% or less increase in fuel burn, then it starts paying for itself really quickly. On a similar note, does anybody know if it is possible to burn mogas in an IO-540 with low compression pistons? That would start saving money as well if it were possible and wouldn't increase fuel burn to achieve a given power output. Another question for BPA is, does your engine include balanced injectors. You can save fuel if you aren't wasting some cooling one cylinder more than another. If you are running all of them at the exact same temperature, then you will be able to save on fuel. Although I know it is impossible to achieve perfection, it can be improved upon. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines This is true. But, it was not done with a stock engine. It had High compression pistons and other enhancements. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines I heard 295 bhp, honest hardcopy Dyno on the Barrett delivered IO-540X. So get ready for the "Wrath of Kahn" on exceeding "260 MAX" or getting even slightly better fuel economy when compliant operations do not exceed 260. Just install a throttle detent at 260 and mark the additional push as "Military" on the quadrant. But, remember you can always throttle back on the unmarked quadrant another 11% and remain within airframe manufacturer Hard Numbers. A fringe benefit is the reduced harmonic vibration through the glass cockpit as a result of the individual component balancing. How many posters know the difference in weight variance with a Mattituck - Lycoming supplied internal component vs. a Barrett balanced and installed one? Friction, balance and volumetric efficiency are the key issues. Heat dissipation is another. Do your research... your talking about a chunk of change. Your flavor may vary. John - $00.02 DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Here's a question, with all the porting, balancing, flow matching, etc what is the honest HP you normally see on the Dyno for your IO-540-X Engine. I know the stuff makes a difference, just like to quantify things for the $$$. I expect it's unofficially above 260. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Flaps ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines John, everyone that knows me knows I'm not one to be very quiet! :-) I am in agreement with your statement of choice, feature and quality. Let's clear the air a bit. First, the recent price increase of a crate engine from Vans makes the experimental kits the most cost effective choice. The three shops that are regularly being talked about, BPE, Aerosport & Mattittuck all build very fine engines. We all are on the Lycoming kit engine program for several reasons. We build quality engines, have a good reputation, are dedicated to the GA industry and support our products. If you choose any one of these shops to build your engine, you are going to get a quality product. While some shops offer a base engine purchase price with several performance enhancing upgrades such as balancing, custom painting, porting and polishing, etc etc, and add these costs as you choose, here at BPE we build our experimental engines incorporating these features. We feel this is the right way to build an engine. What I'm trying to say is that while you can purchase a basic engine and add the cost of upgrades, by the time you have an engine that is comparable in options and performance, you'll realize that the price differences are minimal at best. Since the kit engines have become available, the shops in the program have adjusted their prices to take into account their costs. Labor is probably the biggest cost factor in the price differences. We have done some very close evaluation of our costs, and we have adjusted our pricing so that we are very competitive with Aerosport without sacrificing the build quality that we are well known for. The standard IO-540-X engine from us sells for $38,300. A few of the price differences, include our balancing, port/flow match on cylinders, Champion plugs (instead of Unison), all fittings and hoses included, silicon rocker box covers and a 1.5 hour dynamometer test, including a full power run. If you haven't received a quote from us on an engine since September, we'd be happy to review our pricing with you. Here's a price saving tip for anyone - if you are going to need your engine prior to June of 06, go ahead and order your engine before the end of the year. Historically, price increases have come on January 1. Allen Barrett BPE, Inc. www.barrettpreceisionengines.com (918) 835-1089 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:47 PM PST US From: LessDragProd@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Van's would never approve of it. That would total 270 hp. :-) Regards, Jim Ayers Do Not Archive In a message dated 10/07/2005 3:47:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Tdawson@avidyne.com writes: Have you guys heard about my powerplant wish? Two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating concentric-shaft propellers. Yeah, baby! TDT 40025 ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:13 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: Lycoming Engines --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I'm still catching up on all the recent posts, but here's my reply to the question below: I spoke with Bart and he assured me that my crankshaft was not going to be one that was ground undersized at all. It was a crankshaft that is at brand new limits. Everything in the engine will be at new limits. I agree that there would seem to be some piece of mind in having a new crank. I very much think that way about most purchases. With the recent Lycoming crank problems though, and the AD's being expanded further and further, I guess actually in this particular case I kind of feel better having a known good crank. Strange, huh? Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170 DO NOT ARCHIVE William Curtis wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" > > What is the $37,500 for, one of their overhauls or a clone? Ive > always questioned the wisdom of paying 80-90% of the cost of a new > engine from Vans, for an overhauled engine by ANY shop in the field. > Before they started offering Lycoming clones, they were selling > overhauled IO-540 engines for about $33,500 when Vans was selling new > IO-540s for $38,990. 85% of the cost of new for a field overhauled > engine. The peace of mind of a new crankshaft alone is worth the > extra 15% ($5,500), at least to me. How many field overhauls include > a new crankshaft. Tim, does you engine have a new crankshaft? All > the porting and balancing in the world won't help when a questionable > crank fails. > > If this is the cost for a clone IO-540 with ALL new parts on the other > hand, that would be another story and a fair deal. > > >>Have you seen the new prices on the Aerosport site? $37,500. Do you >>think the number of RV-10 kits being built is driving up the price? > > I am > >>starting to look and the price increase are causing me to look at > > other > >>alternatives....maybe I will end up with a Subaru. But, I really > > want to > >>stay with the IO-540. > > > William Curtis > 40237 - wings > http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:55 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wing order + components --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Sorry this won't address all your questions James, but regarding the Duckworks kit, I think the duckworks kit may actually be easier to install once the leading edge is completed. It won't matter a bit if your wing is closed or not, as long as you can get the wing out and lay it flat on the bench. It's a pretty easy install. Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170 DO NOT ARCHIVE James Ochs wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs > > Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I > might need to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget > something or have to wait to continue building because I'm waiting for a > part. > > So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;) > The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or > impossible after the wing is closed: > > Conduit / bushings for the wiring > AOA / pitot tubing > coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas > aileron trim kit > > A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet, > and suspecting there will be some interesting things happening in the > next 2 - 3 years before I'm ready for an engine installation, what would > I need to do differently to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were to use > something that required JET-A as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is there a > way to build the tanks / plumbing so that you could use any of the > above? Or does it not matter, and the real question is quantity? (I'll > leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice discussion for > much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;) > > If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the > AOA indicator that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of > them or can they share the same ports in the wings the way a > pitot-static system can? I like the display of the AOA pro but a lot of > the glass units have that feature built in so it would be nice to have > them both working. > > Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring does > it require? > > I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to > install before or after the wing is closed? > > Thanks > James > #40400 > elevators > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:59 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wing order + components --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Very good call Bob, yes, the Pitot mount and AP servos are definitely things to get before you close the wings. Regarding the pitot mount, I've been getting nice comments from people regarding my mounting location. Many people say "wish I would have known...", so for those of you builders just coming up on that part of the kit, you may want to consider mounting it in the first or 2nd bay from the wingtip instead of the regular location. I've got good photos on my site. Also, a tidbit....I closed my wings last weekend so I could paint them and riveted in my Gretz mount. It was installed per-directions, and it was so strong that I actually lifted up the outboard wing end by lifting on the pitot mount. Good stuff, and very tough. Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170 DO NOT ARCHIVE Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" > > Only absolutely critical item is the pitot mount. Everything else can be added after the wings are closed. It's certainly easier to put the AP roll servo in berfore closing. Pitot tubing and snap bushings come w/the kit. If you go the conduit route instead you'll need to do that before closing. > > Bob > -------------------------- > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Sent: Fri Oct 07 10:16:29 2005 > Subject: RV10-List: Wing order + components > > --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs > > Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I > might need to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget > something or have to wait to continue building because I'm waiting for a > part. > > So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;) > > The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or > impossible after the wing is closed: > > Conduit / bushings for the wiring > AOA / pitot tubing > coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas > aileron trim kit > > A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet, > and suspecting there will be some interesting things happening in the > next 2 - 3 years before I'm ready for an engine installation, what would > I need to do differently to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were to use > something that required JET-A as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is there a > way to build the tanks / plumbing so that you could use any of the > above? Or does it not matter, and the real question is quantity? (I'll > leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice discussion for > much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;) > > If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the > AOA indicator that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of > them or can they share the same ports in the wings the way a > pitot-static system can? I like the display of the AOA pro but a lot of > the glass units have that feature built in so it would be nice to have > them both working. > > Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring does > it require? > > I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to > install before or after the wing is closed? > > Thanks > James > #40400 > elevators > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:05 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wing order + components --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Michael, You mentioned getting the opposite wing AP servo if you're using Van's aileron trim. What are you saying, the aileron trim can't mount in the Left wing? My wings are closed, but I figured I'd mount that later. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170 DO NOT ARCHIVE RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: > I did the duckworks HID while I was working on that part of the wing. > It will be easier to get the nutplates and mounting bracket in place > before you rivet on the leading edge. I even put nutplates in place in > the opposite wing in case I decide to add a second kit down the road. > > Don't forget position lights also. If you go with the AoA from Rob, > you can also get the wing kit and put that in at the same time as the > duckworks HID. It sits just aft of the HID. Others have already > mentioned the Pitot and AP. Just don't forget to order the AP servo for > the opposite wing if you get Van's Aileron trim. > > For fuel tanks you could do a couple things. First, JetA or any other > heavy fuel needs positive ventilation so you will need to work that > out. I would talk to the guys at Deltahawk for specifics. Second, if > you go with an engine conversion like Eggs Subaru you will need a return > line for the fuel as they are constant supply. There is info on Egg's > website but basically it's just an additional bulkhead in the -5 size in > the vicinity of the vent connected to a tube that dumps into the second > bay from the supply line so you don't get bubbles. If you are > considering it you can put in the bulkhead and just cap it if you don't > use it. > > Michael Sausen > -10 #352 Flaps > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Ochs > Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 12:16 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Wing order + components > > --> RV10-List message posted by: James Ochs > > Ok, I'm getting ready to order the wings. I'd like to get whatever I > might need to put in the wing while I'm at it so I don't forget > something or have to wait to continue building because I'm waiting for a > part. > > So, I guess this is where a lot of the decisions come ;) > > The question is, did I miss anything that will be difficult or > impossible after the wing is closed: > > Conduit / bushings for the wiring > AOA / pitot tubing > coax cable for the wingtip nav / comm antennas aileron trim kit > > A couple of other questions... having not made an engine decision yet, > and suspecting there will be some interesting things happening in the > next 2 - 3 years before I'm ready for an engine installation, what would > I need to do differently to the fuel plumbing / tanks if I were to use > something that required JET-A as opposed to 100LL or mogas? Is there a > way to build the tanks / plumbing so that you could use any of the > above? Or does it not matter, and the real question is quantity? (I'll > leave the traditional vs. non-traditional engine choice discussion for > much later when I have acquired a nice nomex suit;) > > If I have two systems that have AOA (like a dynon or a chelton and the > AOA indicator that AFS sells) do I need separate plumbing for both of > them or can they share the same ports in the wings the way a > pitot-static system can? I like the display of the AOA pro but a lot of > the glass units have that feature built in so it would be nice to have > them both working. > > Where are people putting their OAT sensor(s)? What kind of wiring does > it require? > > I'm planning on going with the duckworks light kit, is it easier to > install before or after the wing is closed? > > Thanks > James > #40400 > elevators > > > > ==================================== > RV10-List Email Forum - > more: > bsp; > ==================================== > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:53 PM PST US From: "Paul Walter" Subject: RV10-List: Quick build Just wondering, when assembling my 7A empennage I polished, anodised and primed every component before assembly. upon receiving my quick build kit and with regard to corrosion protection, I thought that the quality of the priming job of the kit left a little to be desired, granted the quality of riveting was A1. Do any of the other members of the group have any reservations at all about going the Quick Build route ?. I would like to hear your thoughts. If it were not for this minor gripe I would go the A/B on my 10 or any other RV in a heart beat - the saving in time alone makes the Q/K unbeatable value. Paul Walter ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:07 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Real time and cost to build? From a new subscriber You have great goals. Here is my recommendations to anyone building a RV10. 1 Go quick build unless you have a plane that you fly now or you are retired and love to build. It will take months off of most peoples build times. 2 Plan on 150,000.00 for a good IFR platform. If you save a buck here and there, great. you won't be upset when it comes in a little more. 3 Have the panel built by someone, anyone. It will cut 2 monthes off of the project. I would also recommend that the person wiring the panel is also someone who wires entire planes as well. If you do the airframe wiring yourself and they are doing the panel, the wire gauges can all be worked out very easily. Don't know what wire gets run for the pitot heat? Just ask them, they do it all day long. 4 Get help. Deburing isn't hard and a local kid that want's to get involved in the project, or as I lucked into a great retired guy that also want to build a plane. The plane isn't hard to build but it does require the hours to be spent. 5 You must build at home or live in the hanger. Do not take the kids to socker practice, do not go out to dinner more the 1 night a week. Do not cut the grass until you absolutly have to. It is a major waste of time that could be better spent working on the plane. Do not fix up the house, that can come after the plane is built. 6 Oh one more thing. Leave the Web sites to someone else. There as some great ones out there you can't compete with them, and it is time that would be better spent reading the plans for tomorrows tasks. 7 If you want to build fast - don't prime. I primed and I would do it again but I am not convinced it the best thing since sliced bread. 2200 hours slow build. 1800 hours QB. I think one year is doable but you better stay away from that lawn or it will be 1 1/2 years. Randy ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of John Jessen Subject: RE: RV10-List: Real time and cost to build? From a new subscriber --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" Mike, Good questions. A trip through the land of RV web sites will help you, greatly. Also, search the archives. There are many references there as to the time to build and costs. I cannot do anything but give you a projected cost range that I came up with for my purposes (IFR panel, new engine, etc), and that was between $120,000 to $140,000. I hope the estimated range is high; I doubt it. But to me, the one thing that disturbed me about your post was the "need" to get this done within a year or less. Randy, the first totally completed RV-10 to fly, was finished in 20 months, with help, both in terms of physical labor, but also in terms of subsections being farmed out, such as the panel. (Randy can fill you in on exactly what were his shortcuts.) Twenty months is fast, my friend. I expect to take between 24 and 48 months, depending if I, too, go QB, which is still being debated. For a plane of this complexity, anything south of 24 months would be proud to crow about, but less than 12? Please don't set that as your goal. This stuff is doable, but it is not strictly a Lego or erector set. By the way, I work on it each evening for 2 hours (when I'm not traveling on business) and each and every weekend for at least 6 hours (when I'm not being pulled away by others who don't understand the passion and addiction, but whose needs must be recognized - none of us are total recluses, yet), and there's no way that I could get it done in less time than Randy's 20 months. I have all the tools, and the requisite knowledge and skills, and there's no way. In short, enjoy the process, build well and have some fun...or, buy one already built. I'm sure there will be a few up for sale soon. My best, John Jessen 40328 HS -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Lee Subject: RV10-List: Real time and cost to build? From a new subscriber --> RV10-List message posted by: "Mike Lee" OK I am sure this has been asked before, but maybe someoneone could send me copies of any list digests with information on this, or just reply directly. I am ver seriously considering an RV-10 project. What I would like is information from real builders on the following: Assuming the following: 1) RV-10 Quick build kit 2) Builder has good mechanical aptitude and electonics experience. 3) Never built an airplane before, or any project of this size. 4) Planning to keep customizations to a minimum. 5) Need to keep costs down, planning on finding a used mid time engine, CS prop, analog engine gauges, basic JPI engine monitor, will shell out $ for a Garmin 530 / 430 combo and indicators. 6) Want an IFR platform (hence the 530 / 430 combo) 7) GPS / Nav coupled auto pilot with altitude hold. 8) Will paint myself, will have uphoulstry done. 9) Basic sound proofing. 10) Wingtip stobes, plus stobe beacon, otherwise standard lighting with taxi / landing light. Can I get an estimate of build time and costs? What types of unexpected costs that are not in the above are there? Anyone else out there with similar goals / expectaions? What are other builders doing to keep costs down? I know I can save some $$ by buying a standard kit instead of a quick build, but I have a need to have the aircraft done in less than a year, working evenings and weekends. THANKS!!!!! for any and all help! Mike ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:47 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: FW: Group buy on covers. From: "Randy DeBauw" Yes. It is a 7" piece of tapered wood painted white. It is adjustable with a saw and more paint. It is being modified about every 4th flight. I think it will end up 4" tall by 1" front to back and 1/4" thick in the back of the rudder and tapers down to nothing on the front. After that I will glass and paint in a permanent piece. Most of my longer trips are on autopilot so the use of trim other than elevator has not been needed. Randy ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Conti, Rick Subject: RE: RV10-List: FW: Group buy on covers. Randy, I have surfed your site and watched your videos. Excellent job. Do you have a rudder trim assembly on your 10? Thank You Rick Conti office: 703-414-6141 cell: 571-215-6134 ________________________________ From: Randy DeBauw [mailto:Randy@abros.com] Subject: RV10-List: FW: Group buy on covers. Here is a response from Abby on the light weight travel covers. Randy ________________________________ From: FLIGHTLINE INTERIORS [mailto:flightline@tds.net] Subject: Fw: Group buy on covers. ----- Original Message ----- From: FLIGHTLINE INTERIORS Subject: Re: Group buy on covers. Sorry, I didn't even really answer your questions. I don't have it patterned right now, but given a little time I could have it patterned. It is made of Ripstop Nylon fabric. It would come with its own storage bag. They would probably be somewhere around $225 each. Thanks, Abby ----- Original Message ----- From: Erdmann's To: FLIGHTLINE INTERIORS Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 7:47 AM Subject: Fw: Group buy on covers. ----- Original Message ----- From: Randy's Abros mail To: erdmannb@execpc.com Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 1:20 PM Subject: Group buy on covers. The RV10 list is all a flutter with people wanting to be involved in a group buy (my guess is 15 to 20) on canopy covers for the 10. They have been taking to Bruce at Bruce's Covers. I think most don't want the heavy cover. I think if you give your regular price and what it is made of and what includes I can relay it to the group and give them an option. Thanks and I hope things are will. Randy ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:47 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines From: "John W. Cox" Not if they were the Centurion 4.0 liters from the TT62. 261Kw each or 350 hp. It would total 700 just like a Lancair IVP with Walter Turboprop. John - KUAO ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LessDragProd@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Van's would never approve of it. That would total 270 hp. :-) Regards, Jim Ayers Do Not Archive In a message dated 10/07/2005 3:47:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Tdawson@avidyne.com writes: Have you guys heard about my powerplant wish? Two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating concentric-shaft propellers. Yeah, baby! TDT 40025 ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:51 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Visit the GAMI site and their work with BPE on the Continental IO-520 and IO-550 to learn more on the difficulty of using MOGAS at altitude. Their solution is/was Turbo Normalized. You won't find them buying off on the mogas idea. John - KUAO Do Not Archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Engines Good info indeed. I am planning high altitude cruise with the MH Oxy system myself and glad to see the fuel burn down there. Balanced injectors is the same as flow matched which, I believe, BPA has. I think you run into problems with Mogas at those altitudes because of the vapor pressure? (can't think of the word I want here). Anyway, same problem that causes vapor lock . I'm sure Allen can enlighten us a little better. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Flaps