Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:21 AM - Re: Clecos anyone? (Mani Ravee)
2. 03:34 AM - Re: pre-oiler (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
3. 04:05 AM - Re: Clecos anyone? (Larry Rosen)
4. 04:56 AM - MEK Anyone? (Jesse Saint)
5. 05:11 AM - Re: MEK Anyone? (Tim Olson)
6. 05:29 AM - Re: MEK Anyone? (Deems Davis)
7. 05:56 AM - Re: MEK Anyone? (RAS)
8. 06:11 AM - Re: MEK Anyone? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
9. 06:49 AM - Re: pre-oiler (linn walters)
10. 07:20 AM - Re: pre-oiler (Tim Olson)
11. 07:30 AM - Re: MEK Anyone? ()
12. 07:57 AM - Re: MEK Anyone? (linn walters)
13. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: pre-oiler ()
14. 08:01 AM - Re: pre-oiler (Mani Ravee)
15. 09:19 AM - Re: Clecos anyone? (Jeff Dalton)
16. 09:43 AM - Re: MEK Anyone? (Gary Specketer)
17. 10:32 AM - Re: MEK Anyone? (John W. Cox)
18. 12:18 PM - Re: pre-oiler (linn walters)
19. 12:55 PM - Re: MEK Anyone? (David McNeill)
20. 01:51 PM - Re: MEK Anyone? (Jesse Saint)
21. 02:53 PM - workbench (Eric Kallio)
22. 02:58 PM - Re: pre-oiler (Mani Ravee)
23. 03:27 PM - Re: workbench (Rene Felker)
24. 04:38 PM - Re: workbench (Deems Davis)
25. 04:46 PM - Re: workbench (Mani Ravee)
26. 06:16 PM - Re: workbench (Dj Merrill)
27. 06:36 PM - Re: workbench (Richard Sipp)
28. 06:42 PM - Re: workbench (Dj Merrill)
29. 06:45 PM - Re: workbench (Bobby J. Hughes)
30. 07:28 PM - Re: workbench (Larry Rosen)
31. 08:19 PM - Re: workbench (Larry Rosen)
Message 1
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Jeff, I may be wrong here. I bought mine new and having used them over and
over now, find that a lot of them do not hold on very well or should I say
tight enough, so that frequently I find myself discarding some clecos that I
will not be using anymore. I will have to buy some more new ones to
replenish my stock. I wonder about the wisdom in buying used or old ones to
save a few $$. They may let you down, and your nice matched drilled holes
may look oval.
Personally, I would buy 'em new.
Mani Ravee
40339
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Dalton
Subject: RV10-List: Clecos anyone?
After a year of reading, lurking, and dreaming I'll be ordering the -10 tail
kit before the month is over.
All you advanced builders who may be finished with clecos - any interest in
selling some of them? Looking especially for the #40's.
Thanks!
Jeff
p.s. also looking for a pneumatic squeezer .....
"It is not the critic who counts: Not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The
credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred
by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up
short again and again ... who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the
best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who at worst,
if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly."
Message 2
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As I believe someone else said, the real benefit is from infrequent use. If you
fly every day, or at least every week, you might not ever see any advantage
to it. If you let the aircraft sit for a week or two on a regular basis it can
really help. Funny how we can go and spend a couple hundred on a fuel selector
but not on something that *may* get your engine to run a little while longer
trouble free. Of course there is always that couple pounds too. ;-)
Michael Sausen
-10 # 352 looking at my couple hundred dollar fuel selector
Do not archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: pre-oiler
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Yeah, that pre-oiler discussion had me all worked up and ready to spend some cash
and time on one for a minute, because I do believe they are a good thing (and
still do). Stein though was able to talk me out of it for basically the same
reasons you listed below. I bought a good Reiff pre-heater, that I'll use
many months of the year. He also reminded me that even if I was lucky enough
to make TBO with my engine, the chance that an IO-540 is going to go far past
TBO without at least some top end work isn't all that great. So, by the time
I get to $2000 hours, I'll probably be ready to start thinking of an overhaul
anyway just for peace of mind if nothing else. The things that the pre-oiler
really saves are things like main bearings, but you don't really hear much about
main bearings being the item that ended the service life of the engine.
I do still think they're a good idea, and getting one may be something I do down
the road. But now, I'm thinking my time is better spent getting this thing
in the air, and those kinds of things can be nice add-ons later.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
GenGrumpy@aol.com wrote:
> For what it's worth, I talked with Bart from Aerosport Power (where my
> new IO-540 is coming from) about installing a pre-oiler.
>
> Bart recommended to save your money on that.
>
> He says the 540 engine oil pumps are one of the most reliable ever
> built (as opposed to some other Lyc and Cont engines), so oil pump
> failure is remote compared to other potential failure modes (if you
> were thinking of the pre-oiler as a backup oil pump).
>
> As for pre-oiling for starts, Bart advised that spending your money
> for a good pre-heater is far better.
>
> He said that the oil pump reaches full pressure in a couple of
> revolutions. However, if the oil is cold (and thick), it doesn't flow
> well and that is where you will get your damage.
>
> My 2 cents.
>
> Grumpy #40404
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Clecos anyone? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
You can get used Cleco fasteners from Country Sidewalk. Look in their
tool shed. Use <http://www.countrysidewalk.com> or
<http://www.countrysidewalk.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=C&Category_Code=TSUTCL>
The clecos are $0.25 each. But watch out for the shipping charges.
I got some from them and they work fine. I also have some new ones from
Avery.
Larry
<http://lrosen.nerv10.com>
Message 4
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Speaking of MEK, down here in Ecuador it is hard to find. There is a place
that says they have MEC (the Spanish version of MEK), but it is Methyl Ethyl
Ketone _______. I don't remember what the last word was. Is anyone
familiar with another version of MEK? He said that it is hard to get the
plain MEK because it is used to make Cocaine, he says. Anybody with info on
this would be helpful, as it is going to be hard to do the Proseal thing
without it.
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
Fax: 815-377-3694
I am in Ecuador until May, 2006. If you have questions regarding I-TEC,
please call the office at 352-465-4545. If you would like to talk to me,
please call me at 352-505-1899. This number won't always be on, but it has
voicemail that will get to me in Ecuador.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
Latex does squat against MEK. Invisible gloves without anything else is
your best bet lacking butyl gloves which are hard to find. You are better
off not wearing any gloves without one of those two items. Gloves that are
permeable to MEK will let it in and keep it in contact with your skin (hot
hand or other sensation) where no gloves will at least let it evaporate off.
The big problem is the vapors but submersing your hands in the stuff isn't
much better (i.e.: permeable gloves).
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
Mani,
I see your an MD so I assume your not allergic to latex gloves? Were you
wearing gloves? Just my first thought when you mentioned itching of the
hands. I have heard of reactions with some gloves but not others.
Rick S.
40185
Fuselage
====================================
RV10-List Email Forum -
more:
bsp;
====================================
bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -
bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
">http://www.matronics.com/contri
bution
====================================
Message 5
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Remember that someone dug up the info previously that ideally
MEK is NOT what you want for doing proseal work, but Toluene.
I guess Proseal is Toluene soluble and not MEK soluble.
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
Current section: Engine Hookups
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Jesse Saint wrote:
> Speaking of MEK, down here in Ecuador it is hard to find. There is a
> place that says they have MEC (the Spanish version of MEK), but it is
> Methyl Ethyl Ketone _______. I dont remember what the last word was.
> Is anyone familiar with another version of MEK? He said that it is hard
> to get the plain MEK because it is used to make Cocaine, he says.
> Anybody with info on this would be helpful, as it is going to be hard to
> do the Proseal thing without it.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> Jesse Saint
>
> I-TEC, Inc.
>
> jesse@itecusa.org <mailto:jesse@itecusa.org>
>
> www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org>
>
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
>
>
> I am in Ecuador until May, 2006. If you have questions regarding I-TEC,
> please call the office at 352-465-4545. If you would like to talk to
> me, please call me at 352-505-1899. This number won't always be on, but
> it has voicemail that will get to me in Ecuador.
>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *RV Builder
> (Michael Sausen)
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 21, 2005 10:04 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
>
>
>
> Latex does squat against MEK. Invisible gloves without anything else is
> your best bet lacking butyl gloves which are hard to find. You are
> better off not wearing any gloves without one of those two items.
> Gloves that are permeable to MEK will let it in and keep it in contact
> with your skin (hot hand or other sensation) where no gloves will at
> least let it evaporate off. The big problem is the vapors but
> submersing your hands in the stuff isn't much better (i.e.: permeable
> gloves).
>
> Michael
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 8:35 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
>
> Mani,
>
> I see your an MD so I assume your not allergic to latex gloves? Were you
> wearing gloves? Just my first thought when you mentioned itching of the
> hands. I have heard of reactions with some gloves but not others.
>
> Rick S.
> 40185
> Fuselage
>
>
>
> ====================================
> RV10-List Email Forum -
> more:
> bsp;
> ====================================
> bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -
> bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ====================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Jesse, you can use acetone as well.
Deems Davis # 406
Wings
http://deemsrv10.com/
Jesse Saint wrote:
> Speaking of MEK, down here in Ecuador it is hard to find. There is a
> place that says they have MEC (the Spanish version of MEK), but it is
> Methyl Ethyl Ketone _______. I dont remember what the last word was.
> Is anyone familiar with another version of MEK? He said that it is
> hard to get the plain MEK because it is used to make Cocaine, he says.
> Anybody with info on this would be helpful, as it is going to be hard
> to do the Proseal thing without it.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jesse Saint
>
> I-TEC, Inc.
>
> jesse@itecusa.org <mailto:jesse@itecusa.org>
>
> www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org>
>
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> I am in Ecuador until May, 2006. If you have questions regarding
> I-TEC, please call the office at 352-465-4545. If you would like to
> talk to me, please call me at 352-505-1899. This number won't always
> be on, but it has voicemail that will get to me in Ecuador.
>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *RV
> Builder (Michael Sausen)
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 21, 2005 10:04 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
>
> Latex does squat against MEK. Invisible gloves without anything else
> is your best bet lacking butyl gloves which are hard to find. You are
> better off not wearing any gloves without one of those two items.
> Gloves that are permeable to MEK will let it in and keep it in contact
> with your skin (hot hand or other sensation) where no gloves will at
> least let it evaporate off. The big problem is the vapors but
> submersing your hands in the stuff isn't much better (i.e.: permeable
> gloves).
>
> Michael
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 8:35 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
>
> Mani,
>
> I see your an MD so I assume your not allergic to latex gloves? Were
> you wearing gloves? Just my first thought when you mentioned itching
> of the hands. I have heard of reactions with some gloves but not others.
>
> Rick S.
> 40185
> Fuselage
>
>
> ====================================
> RV10-List Email Forum -
> more:
> bsp;
> ====================================
> bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -
> bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ====================================
>
>
Message 7
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "RAS" <deruiteraircraftservices@btinternet.com>
one thing is for sure I suppose for I have never tried, both coke and MEK
make you high........
If you get really stuck you can try the chemist or pharmacy depending where
you are, a lot of nail varnish remover contains MEK, and some light
additives to make it somewhat less aggressive to use on your fingers.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deems Davis" <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: MEK Anyone?
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
>
> Jesse, you can use acetone as well.
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> Wings
> http://deemsrv10.com/
>
> Jesse Saint wrote:
>
>> Speaking of MEK, down here in Ecuador it is hard to find. There is a
>> place that says they have MEC (the Spanish version of MEK), but it is
>> Methyl Ethyl Ketone _______. I dont remember what the last word was. Is
>> anyone familiar with another version of MEK? He said that it is hard to
>> get the plain MEK because it is used to make Cocaine, he says. Anybody
>> with info on this would be helpful, as it is going to be hard to do the
>> Proseal thing without it.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Jesse Saint
>>
>> I-TEC, Inc.
>>
>> jesse@itecusa.org <mailto:jesse@itecusa.org>
>>
>> www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org>
>>
>> Fax: 815-377-3694
>>
>> I am in Ecuador until May, 2006. If you have questions regarding I-TEC,
>> please call the office at 352-465-4545. If you would like to talk to me,
>> please call me at 352-505-1899. This number won't always be on, but it
>> has voicemail that will get to me in Ecuador.
>>
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *RV Builder
>> (Michael Sausen)
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 21, 2005 10:04 AM
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
>>
>> Latex does squat against MEK. Invisible gloves without anything else is
>> your best bet lacking butyl gloves which are hard to find. You are better
>> off not wearing any gloves without one of those two items. Gloves that
>> are permeable to MEK will let it in and keep it in contact with your skin
>> (hot hand or other sensation) where no gloves will at least let it
>> evaporate off. The big problem is the vapors but submersing your hands in
>> the stuff isn't much better (i.e.: permeable gloves).
>>
>> Michael
>> Do not archive
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 8:35 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
>>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
>>
>> Mani,
>>
>> I see your an MD so I assume your not allergic to latex gloves? Were you
>> wearing gloves? Just my first thought when you mentioned itching of the
>> hands. I have heard of reactions with some gloves but not others.
>>
>> Rick S.
>> 40185
>> Fuselage
>>
>>
>>
>> ====================================
>> RV10-List Email Forum -
>> more:
>> bsp;
>> ====================================
>> bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -
>> bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ====================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 8
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Yes, you can probably use acetone or MEK. But the proper thing to use is toluene.
Personally, I am not a chemist but I'm guessing there is a good reason they
say to only use toluene for thinning and only in small amounts.
As with everything else, deviate at your own risk and use whatever allows you
to sleep well and keeps you out of legal trouble should you ever sell the aircraft,
have a problem, and they search the archives because you didn't use do
not archive. ;-)
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 fuselage
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Subject: Re: RV10-List: MEK Anyone?
--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Jesse, you can use acetone as well.
Deems Davis # 406
Wings
http://deemsrv10.com/
Jesse Saint wrote:
> Speaking of MEK, down here in Ecuador it is hard to find. There is a
> place that says they have MEC (the Spanish version of MEK), but it is
> Methyl Ethyl Ketone _______. I don't remember what the last word was.
> Is anyone familiar with another version of MEK? He said that it is
> hard to get the plain MEK because it is used to make Cocaine, he says.
> Anybody with info on this would be helpful, as it is going to be hard
> to do the Proseal thing without it.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jesse Saint
>
> I-TEC, Inc.
>
> jesse@itecusa.org <mailto:jesse@itecusa.org>
>
> www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org>
>
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> I am in Ecuador until May, 2006. If you have questions regarding
> I-TEC, please call the office at 352-465-4545. If you would like to
> talk to me, please call me at 352-505-1899. This number won't always
> be on, but it has voicemail that will get to me in Ecuador.
>
> --
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *RV
> Builder (Michael Sausen)
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 21, 2005 10:04 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
>
> Latex does squat against MEK. Invisible gloves without anything else
> is your best bet lacking butyl gloves which are hard to find. You are
> better off not wearing any gloves without one of those two items.
> Gloves that are permeable to MEK will let it in and keep it in contact
> with your skin (hot hand or other sensation) where no gloves will at
> least let it evaporate off. The big problem is the vapors but
> submersing your hands in the stuff isn't much better (i.e.: permeable
> gloves).
>
> Michael
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 8:35 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
>
> Mani,
>
> I see your an MD so I assume your not allergic to latex gloves? Were
> you wearing gloves? Just my first thought when you mentioned itching
> of the hands. I have heard of reactions with some gloves but not others.
>
> Rick S.
> 40185
> Fuselage
>
>
>
> RV10-List Email Forum -
> more:
> bsp;
>
> bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -
> bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ">http://www.matronics.com/
> contribution
>
>
>
Message 9
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--> RV10-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
I hit the delete key with most of the pre-oiler stuff, but had to
comment on a slight problem: Sump heaters rarely keep the whole case
toasty warm. The problem that occurs is that the oil, with all that
nasty acidic moisture in it is warmer than the top of the engine where
the cam, cam followers etc. is. So, the warm moist air condenses in the
top if the case where we don't need it. I understand that cylinder
heaters help in this regard, but really don't have any info on them.
The best thing to do to lessen the acid-water damage is to fly often.
This also helps the pre-oiler discussion relating to wear. If you're
really paranoid, pull the prop through a few times by hand to get some
oil pushed through the engine to the bearings. No amount of cranking,
prop pulling, or pre-oilers will get oil to the cylinders/cylinder
walls. Aircraft engines are 'dry sump' (relating to the crank area) and
don't enjoy the luxury of oil being flung around by the crank. The
cylinder top end gets it's oil through the lifters and will only get
that under good oil pressure.
Bottom line is that if you use your plane often, and for at least an
hour, you'll do far more good than pre-oilers ever will. This is a
win-win thing .... your engine, your plane, and you will feel much
better with frequent exercise!!!
Linn ..... just MHO
Tim Olson wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> Sure, anything would help, but... You really want to heat the
> sump so that it's warmer than the air, not heat the air and
> hope the sump catches up. If you have the sump cooler than
> the air, you'll get much more condensation, like having a cold
> glass of water in the hot summer. You want that block to be
> nice and warm. Preheat isn't all just about getting the oil
> to thin out, but keeping the environmental effects down too.
> My hanger gets nasty moist in the spring as the ground thaws.
> The metal surfaces of the plane sometimes drip with moisture.
> I plug my engines in all year round that the temp is less
> than 40F. The engine block stays toasty warm all winter.
>
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> Jerry Grimmonpre wrote:
>
>> My RV's 200HP Lyc is not installed yet. It's in a box made of 1"
>> foil faced styrene foam. I've rigged up two incandescent light bulbs
>> (60w & 75w) with a house thermostat, transformer and relay. This
>> set-up heats the entire box to 80*F and the volume of the box is
>> larger than that of a cowled engine.
>>
>> Wouldn't the heat of a couple light bulbs work after the engine is
>> installed in a hangared airplane? It seems this would act as a
>> constant heat source for the entire engine. If the heat could be
>> directed up the cooling air exit it might work. How hot do the oil
>> sump heaters get and what is their watt rating? Anybody out there in
>> the Northern state have any experience along these lines?
>> My 2 cents ....
>> Jerry Grimmonpre'
>> RV8A
>> Do not archive
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* John W. Cox <mailto:johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 22, 2005 9:30 PM
>> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: pre-oiler
>>
>> Grumpy
>>
>>
>> Larry Schlesinger, a Yak owner and MT prop dealer from Wisconsin
>> would confirm your information on value of Pre-heaters over
>> Pre-oilers. However, as the engine might sit for longer periods of
>> time, then the use of a pre-oiler will often reduce the oxidation
>> damage of cranking without proper lubricant on the exposed parts
>> (cam lobes, lifter face and cylinder walls). Its all about the
>> fractions of a second with abrasive action (without lubrication)
>> that is the issue. Better flow, quicker lubrication. 6 of one or
>> half a dozen of the other.
>>
>>
>> Remember, engine rebuilders love the business of replacing worn
>> parts (as long as it happens after the warrantee expires). An oil
>> pump can only reach minimum operating pressure when the viscosity
>> cooperates. If you graphed the arrival of minimum pressure level
>> and the fractions of a second to reach Minimum, by the number of
>> revolutions at idle throttle, I would bet its more than just a
>> couple of scuffs before token lubrication. A flight school that
>> flies multiple hours per day/ every day has been known to go
>> hundreds of hours beyond TBO then there is the weekend warrior who
>> flies reasonably often four months of the year, then lets it set for
>> over six months in a moist Oregon coastal hangar that cant figure
>> out why his engine(s) are only going 1/3 of TBO.
>>
>>
>> For a real thrill, get your favorite IA to let you use his boroscope
>> on a cylinder that sits for months on end and view the significant
>> corrosion that forms so quickly. Just do it before using either a
>> Pre-Heater or Pre-Oiler. Long as we dont see it, I guess it wont
>> matter Right?
>>
>>
>> Over the life of an engine TBO, just how many additional hours of
>> use will compensate for purchase/ install / and use of either a
>> Pre-heater or Pre-oiler? That is the question for RV builders.
>>
>>
>> John - $00.02
>>
>> Do not Archive
>>
>
>
--
Message 10
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
You're absolutely right Linn. But, I can say the cylinder heaters
are very good too. I had a Tanis system in my last plane, where
the probes went in the CHT probe holes. On this plane, I have
CHT probes in the holes and have the Reiff heater bands. Hopefully
they'll work as well. My initial plug-in test shows them to get
toasty real fast. I used to go out and I could feel really good
heat on my exhaust stacks. In fact, if I turned on my engine
monitor, I could easily see 90 degrees or more on my EGT probe...
which would be a ways away from the heater, before I started the
engine. This is on days when it's 0-10F outside. So the systems
do work well at warming the engine. The sump heater kept the sump
good and warm too, and I know for sure that the engine turned over
much easier when it was heated. The times I was forced to have
no heat when it was 20 degrees outside on the ramp were not fun
times.
So, I'm 100% for electric pre-heaters when you live up here.
I also 100% agree that flying is the best wear prevention you
can do for the engine. I also agree that adding a pre-oiler
will be a good thing. No arguments here except if someone tries
to tell me that I shouldn't use an electric pre-heater in
Wisconsin, I'll know they're just plain nuts on that issue.
Too much cold weather experience for me.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
linn walters wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>
> I hit the delete key with most of the pre-oiler stuff, but had to
> comment on a slight problem: Sump heaters rarely keep the whole case
> toasty warm. The problem that occurs is that the oil, with all that
> nasty acidic moisture in it is warmer than the top of the engine where
> the cam, cam followers etc. is. So, the warm moist air condenses in the
> top if the case where we don't need it. I understand that cylinder
> heaters help in this regard, but really don't have any info on them.
> The best thing to do to lessen the acid-water damage is to fly often.
> This also helps the pre-oiler discussion relating to wear. If you're
> really paranoid, pull the prop through a few times by hand to get some
> oil pushed through the engine to the bearings. No amount of cranking,
> prop pulling, or pre-oilers will get oil to the cylinders/cylinder
> walls. Aircraft engines are 'dry sump' (relating to the crank area) and
> don't enjoy the luxury of oil being flung around by the crank. The
> cylinder top end gets it's oil through the lifters and will only get
> that under good oil pressure.
>
> Bottom line is that if you use your plane often, and for at least an
> hour, you'll do far more good than pre-oilers ever will. This is a
> win-win thing .... your engine, your plane, and you will feel much
> better with frequent exercise!!!
> Linn ..... just MHO
> Tim Olson wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>>
>> Sure, anything would help, but... You really want to heat the
>> sump so that it's warmer than the air, not heat the air and
>> hope the sump catches up. If you have the sump cooler than
>> the air, you'll get much more condensation, like having a cold
>> glass of water in the hot summer. You want that block to be
>> nice and warm. Preheat isn't all just about getting the oil
>> to thin out, but keeping the environmental effects down too.
>> My hanger gets nasty moist in the spring as the ground thaws.
>> The metal surfaces of the plane sometimes drip with moisture.
>> I plug my engines in all year round that the temp is less
>> than 40F. The engine block stays toasty warm all winter.
>>
>>
>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>
>>
>> Jerry Grimmonpre wrote:
>>
>>> My RV's 200HP Lyc is not installed yet. It's in a box made of 1"
>>> foil faced styrene foam. I've rigged up two incandescent light bulbs
>>> (60w & 75w) with a house thermostat, transformer and relay. This
>>> set-up heats the entire box to 80*F and the volume of the box is
>>> larger than that of a cowled engine.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't the heat of a couple light bulbs work after the engine is
>>> installed in a hangared airplane? It seems this would act as a
>>> constant heat source for the entire engine. If the heat could be
>>> directed up the cooling air exit it might work. How hot do the oil
>>> sump heaters get and what is their watt rating? Anybody out there in
>>> the Northern state have any experience along these lines?
>>> My 2 cents ....
>>> Jerry Grimmonpre'
>>> RV8A
>>> Do not archive
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* John W. Cox <mailto:johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 22, 2005 9:30 PM
>>> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: pre-oiler
>>>
>>> Grumpy
>>>
>>> Larry Schlesinger, a Yak owner and MT prop dealer from Wisconsin
>>> would confirm your information on value of Pre-heaters over
>>> Pre-oilers. However, as the engine might sit for longer periods of
>>> time, then the use of a pre-oiler will often reduce the oxidation
>>> damage of cranking without proper lubricant on the exposed parts
>>> (cam lobes, lifter face and cylinder walls). Its all about the
>>> fractions of a second with abrasive action (without lubrication)
>>> that is the issue. Better flow, quicker lubrication. 6 of one or
>>> half a dozen of the other.
>>>
>>> Remember, engine rebuilders love the business of replacing worn
>>> parts (as long as it happens after the warrantee expires). An oil
>>> pump can only reach minimum operating pressure when the viscosity
>>> cooperates. If you graphed the arrival of minimum pressure level
>>> and the fractions of a second to reach Minimum, by the number of
>>> revolutions at idle throttle, I would bet its more than just a
>>> couple of scuffs before token lubrication. A flight school that
>>> flies multiple hours per day/ every day has been known to go
>>> hundreds of hours beyond TBO then there is the weekend warrior who
>>> flies reasonably often four months of the year, then lets it set for
>>> over six months in a moist Oregon coastal hangar that cant figure
>>> out why his engine(s) are only going 1/3 of TBO.
>>>
>>> For a real thrill, get your favorite IA to let you use his
>>> boroscope
>>> on a cylinder that sits for months on end and view the significant
>>> corrosion that forms so quickly. Just do it before using either a
>>> Pre-Heater or Pre-Oiler. Long as we dont see it, I guess it wont
>>> matter Right?
>>>
>>> Over the life of an engine TBO, just how many additional
>>> hours of
>>> use will compensate for purchase/ install / and use of either a
>>> Pre-heater or Pre-oiler? That is the question for RV builders.
>>>
>>> John - $00.02
>>>
>>> Do not Archive
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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|
RE: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?There is a product called MEKP...I don't remember
what the P meant. When I was building a glass airplane (CompAir 7), we used
it as a catalyst for the fibergrass resin.
Steve Mills
RV-10, starting tail cone
----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Saint
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 6:55 AM
Subject: RV10-List: MEK Anyone?
Speaking of MEK, down here in Ecuador it is hard to find. There is a place that
says they have MEC (the Spanish version of MEK), but it is Methyl Ethyl Ketone
_______. I don't remember what the last word was. Is anyone familiar with
another version of MEK? He said that it is hard to get the plain MEK because
it is used to make Cocaine, he says. Anybody with info on this would be helpful,
as it is going to be hard to do the Proseal thing without it.
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
Fax: 815-377-3694
I am in Ecuador until May, 2006. If you have questions regarding I-TEC, please
call the office at 352-465-4545. If you would like to talk to me, please call
me at 352-505-1899. This number won't always be on, but it has voicemail
that will get to me in Ecuador.
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 10:04 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
Latex does squat against MEK. Invisible gloves without anything else is your
best bet lacking butyl gloves which are hard to find. You are better off not
wearing any gloves without one of those two items. Gloves that are permeable
to MEK will let it in and keep it in contact with your skin (hot hand or other
sensation) where no gloves will at least let it evaporate off. The big problem
is the vapors but submersing your hands in the stuff isn't much better (i.e.:
permeable gloves).
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 8:35 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
Mani,
I see your an MD so I assume your not allergic to latex gloves? Were you wearing
gloves? Just my first thought when you mentioned itching of the hands. I have
heard of reactions with some gloves but not others.
Rick S.
40185
Fuselage
RV10-List Email Forum -
more:
bsp;
bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -
bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 12
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|
The "P" is for Peroxide. I hope someone will tell us what the "C" is
.... in english!!!
Linn
do not archive
millstees@ameritech.net wrote:
> There is a product called MEKP...I don't remember what the P meant.
> When I was building a glass airplane (CompAir 7), we used it as a
> catalyst for the fibergrass resin.
>
> Steve Mills
> RV-10, starting tail cone
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jesse Saint <mailto:jesse@itecusa.org>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 6:55 AM
> Subject: RV10-List: MEK Anyone?
>
> Speaking of MEK, down here in Ecuador it is hard to find. There
> is a place that says they have MEC (the Spanish version of MEK),
> but it is Methyl Ethyl Ketone _______. I don't remember what the
> last word was. Is anyone familiar with another version of MEK?
> He said that it is hard to get the plain MEK because it is used to
> make Cocaine, he says. Anybody with info on this would be
> helpful, as it is going to be hard to do the Proseal thing without it.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> Jesse Saint
>
> I-TEC, Inc.
>
> jesse@itecusa.org <mailto:jesse@itecusa.org>
>
> www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org>
>
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
>
>
> I am in Ecuador until May, 2006. If you have questions regarding
> I-TEC, please call the office at 352-465-4545. If you would like
> to talk to me, please call me at 352-505-1899. This number won't
> always be on, but it has voicemail that will get to me in Ecuador.
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV
> Builder (Michael Sausen)
> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 10:04 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
>
>
>
> Latex does squat against MEK. Invisible gloves without anything
> else is your best bet lacking butyl gloves which are hard to
> find. You are better off not wearing any gloves without one of
> those two items. Gloves that are permeable to MEK will let it in
> and keep it in contact with your skin (hot hand or other
> sensation) where no gloves will at least let it evaporate off.
> The big problem is the vapors but submersing your hands in the
> stuff isn't much better (i.e.: permeable gloves).
>
> Michael
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 8:35 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
>
> Mani,
>
> I see your an MD so I assume your not allergic to latex gloves?
> Were you wearing gloves? Just my first thought when you mentioned
> itching of the hands. I have heard of reactions with some gloves
> but not others.
>
> Rick S.
> 40185
> Fuselage
>
>
> ====================================
> RV10-List Email Forum -
> more:
> bsp;
> ====================================
> bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -
> bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ====================================
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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|
--> RV10-List message posted by: <jim@combsfive.com>
Why not use one of the thin film heater (Like those used in seats) with an adhesive
backed insulator. Stick it to the bottom of the oil sump. That would keep
the oil itself warm.
Jim C
#40192
Message 14
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|
Tim, good choice on the Reiff heaters. I have them on my Cessna's engine and have
been using them for a few years now. Plug it in all winter long, ready to fly
at a moment's notice. There were talks of condensation and corrosion, etc.
Pure balooney! I changed my mags last year, and when I pulled em, there was absolutely
no sign of any corrosion in the upper areas of the case. Leave it pugged
in if you have a temp controled model, like I do. It has a small thermostat
epoxied onto the sump. Works verywell.
Mani Ravee
Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson
You're absolutely right Linn. But, I can say the cylinder heaters
are very good too. I had a Tanis system in my last plane, where
the probes went in the CHT probe holes. On this plane, I have
CHT probes in the holes and have the Reiff heater bands. Hopefully
they'll work as well. My initial plug-in test shows them to get
toasty real fast. I used to go out and I could feel really good
heat on my exhaust stacks. In fact, if I turned on my engine
monitor, I could easily see 90 degrees or more on my EGT probe...
which would be a ways away from the heater, before I started the
engine. This is on days when it's 0-10F outside. So the systems
do work well at warming the engine. The sump heater kept the sump
good and warm too, and I know for sure that the engine turned over
much easier when it was heated. The times I was forced to have
no heat when it was 20 degrees outside on the ramp were not fun
times.
So, I'm 100% for electric pre-heaters when you live up here.
I also 100% agree that flying is the best wear prevention you
can do for the engine. I also agree that adding a pre-oiler
will be a good thing. No arguments here except if someone tries
to tell me that I shouldn't use an electric pre-heater in
Wisconsin, I'll know they're just plain nuts on that issue.
Too much cold weather experience for me.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
linn walters wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: linn walters
>
> I hit the delete key with most of the pre-oiler stuff, but had to
> comment on a slight problem: Sump heaters rarely keep the whole case
> toasty warm. The problem that occurs is that the oil, with all that
> nasty acidic moisture in it is warmer than the top of the engine where
> the cam, cam followers etc. is. So, the warm moist air condenses in the
> top if the case where we don't need it. I understand that cylinder
> heaters help in this regard, but really don't have any info on them.
> The best thing to do to lessen the acid-water damage is to fly often.
> This also helps the pre-oiler discussion relating to wear. If you're
> really paranoid, pull the prop through a few times by hand to get some
> oil pushed through the engine to the bearings. No amount of cranking,
> prop pulling, or pre-oilers will get oil to the cylinders/cylinder
> walls. Aircraft engines are 'dry sump' (relating to the crank area) and
> don't enjoy the luxury of oil being flung around by the crank. The
> cylinder top end gets it's oil through the lifters and will only get
> that under good oil pressure.
>
> Bottom line is that if you use your plane often, and for at least an
> hour, you'll do far more good than pre-oilers ever will. This is a
> win-win thing .... your engine, your plane, and you will feel much
> better with frequent exercise!!!
> Linn ..... just MHO
> Tim Olson wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson
>>
>> Sure, anything would help, but... You really want to heat the
>> sump so that it's warmer than the air, not heat the air and
>> hope the sump catches up. If you have the sump cooler than
>> the air, you'll get much more condensation, like having a cold
>> glass of water in the hot summer. You want that block to be
>> nice and warm. Preheat isn't all just about getting the oil
>> to thin out, but keeping the environmental effects down too.
>> My hanger gets nasty moist in the spring as the ground thaws.
>> The metal surfaces of the plane sometimes drip with moisture.
>> I plug my engines in all year round that the temp is less
>> than 40F. The engine block stays toasty warm all winter.
>>
>>
>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>
>>
>> Jerry Grimmonpre wrote:
>>
>>> My RV's 200HP Lyc is not installed yet. It's in a box made of 1"
>>> foil faced styrene foam. I've rigged up two incandescent light bulbs
>>> (60w & 75w) with a house thermostat, transformer and relay. This
>>> set-up heats the entire box to 80*F and the volume of the box is
>>> larger than that of a cowled engine.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't the heat of a couple light bulbs work after the engine is
>>> installed in a hangared airplane? It seems this would act as a
>>> constant heat source for the entire engine. If the heat could be
>>> directed up the cooling air exit it might work. How hot do the oil
>>> sump heaters get and what is their watt rating? Anybody out there in
>>> the Northern state have any experience along these lines?
>>> My 2 cents ....
>>> Jerry Grimmonpre'
>>> RV8A
>>> Do not archive
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* John W. Cox
>>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 22, 2005 9:30 PM
>>> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: pre-oiler
>>>
>>> Grumpy
>>>
>>> Larry Schlesinger, a Yak owner and MT prop dealer from Wisconsin
>>> would confirm your information on value of Pre-heaters over
>>> Pre-oilers. However, as the engine might sit for longer periods of
>>> time, then the use of a pre-oiler will often reduce the oxidation
>>> damage of cranking without proper lubricant on the exposed parts
>>> (cam lobes, lifter face and cylinder walls). Its all about the
>>> fractions of a second with abrasive action (without lubrication)
>>> that is the issue. Better flow, quicker lubrication. 6 of one or
>>> half a dozen of the other.
>>>
>>> Remember, engine rebuilders love the business of replacing worn
>>> parts (as long as it happens after the warrantee expires). An oil
>>> pump can only reach minimum operating pressure when the viscosity
>>> cooperates. If you graphed the arrival of minimum pressure level
>>> and the fractions of a second to reach Minimum, by the number of
>>> revolutions at idle throttle, I would bet its more than just a
>>> couple of scuffs before token lubrication. A flight school that
>>> flies multiple hours per day/ every day has been known to go
>>> hundreds of hours beyond TBO then there is the weekend warrior who
>>> flies reasonably often four months of the year, then lets it set for
>>> over six months in a moist Oregon coastal hangar that cant figure
>>> out why his engine(s) are only going 1/3 of TBO.
>>>
>>> For a real thrill, get your favorite IA to let you use his
>>> boroscope
>>> on a cylinder that sits for months on end and view the significant
>>> corrosion that forms so quickly. Just do it before using either a
>>> Pre-Heater or Pre-Oiler. Long as we dont see it, I guess it wont
>>> matter Right?
>>>
>>> Over the life of an engine TBO, just how many additional
>>> hours of
>>> use will compensate for purchase/ install / and use of either a
>>> Pre-heater or Pre-oiler? That is the question for RV builders.
>>>
>>> John - $00.02
>>>
>>> Do not Archive
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Re: Clecos anyone? |
great point. I hadn't considered that. thanks
----- Original Message -----
From: Mani Ravee
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 5:20 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Clecos anyone?
Jeff, I may be wrong here. I bought mine new and having used them over and over
now, find that a lot of them do not hold on very well or should I say tight
enough, so that frequently I find myself discarding some clecos that I will not
be using anymore. I will have to buy some more new ones to replenish my stock.
I wonder about the wisdom in buying used or old ones to save a few $$. They
may let you down, and your nice matched drilled holes may look oval.
Personally, I would buy 'em new.
Mani Ravee
40339
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Dalton
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:09 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: Clecos anyone?
After a year of reading, lurking, and dreaming I'll be ordering the -10 tail
kit before the month is over.
All you advanced builders who may be finished with clecos - any interest in selling
some of them? Looking especially for the #40's.
Thanks!
Jeff
p.s. also looking for a pneumatic squeezer .....
"It is not the critic who counts: Not the man who points out how the strong man
stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust
and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again
and again ... who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows,
in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who at worst, if he fails, at
least he fails while daring greatly."
Message 16
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MEKP is Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide. It is definitely not what you want to
use as a solvent. As mentioned it is a catalyst for many resin systems.
Treat it with care though as it is very rough on the eyes.
Gary Specketer
Tech Councilor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
millstees@ameritech.net
Subject: Re: RV10-List: MEK Anyone?
There is a product called MEKP...I don't remember what the P meant. When I
was building a glass airplane (CompAir 7), we used it as a catalyst for the
fibergrass resin.
Steve Mills
RV-10, starting tail cone
----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Saint <mailto:jesse@itecusa.org>
Subject: RV10-List: MEK Anyone?
Speaking of MEK, down here in Ecuador it is hard to find. There is a place
that says they have MEC (the Spanish version of MEK), but it is Methyl Ethyl
Ketone _______. I don't remember what the last word was. Is anyone
familiar with another version of MEK? He said that it is hard to get the
plain MEK because it is used to make Cocaine, he says. Anybody with info on
this would be helpful, as it is going to be hard to do the Proseal thing
without it.
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
Fax: 815-377-3694
I am in Ecuador until May, 2006. If you have questions regarding I-TEC,
please call the office at 352-465-4545. If you would like to talk to me,
please call me at 352-505-1899. This number won't always be on, but it has
voicemail that will get to me in Ecuador.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
Latex does squat against MEK. Invisible gloves without anything else is
your best bet lacking butyl gloves which are hard to find. You are better
off not wearing any gloves without one of those two items. Gloves that are
permeable to MEK will let it in and keep it in contact with your skin (hot
hand or other sensation) where no gloves will at least let it evaporate off.
The big problem is the vapors but submersing your hands in the stuff isn't
much better (i.e.: permeable gloves).
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
Mani,
I see your an MD so I assume your not allergic to latex gloves? Were you
wearing gloves? Just my first thought when you mentioned itching of the
hands. I have heard of reactions with some gloves but not others.
Rick S.
40185
Fuselage
RV10-List Email Forum -
more:
bsp;
bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -
bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
">http://www.matronics.com/contri
bution
Message 17
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Tim and Gang -
Actually Proseal is a trademark name from PPG DeSoto
[http://www.ppg.com/prc-desoto/main.asp] and originally from Courtaulds
Aerospace Chemical. The product is used for rivet sealant, interior
fuel cell sealant, pneumatic boot and inspection cover sealant on both
commercial airline and military aircraft. We typically use the
prepackaged Semkit 6 oz in either PR1826B or PR1422B. Ready in 3
minutes. Vans has found a second supplier, FlameMaster who makes the
same product (non ProSeal) that is Milspec compliant.
MEK is the solvent (dissolver) of preference for cleanup when you drool
on your final work (in the airline and military field). Use of proper
gloves should be a logical requirement. Attached are a few of the MSDS
sheets and sales brochures. It is also the only solvent that will
cleanup the micro-bacterial growth from the fuel, water and air
combination in our overflow bays.
The semco guns are invaluable at applying the material in a quality
ribbon, fillet bead or seal within a short period of time while it is
still workable (15 to 30 minutes). A semco gun and a pneumatic rivet
squeezer are two of the most valuable automation tools available to an
RV builder. Baggies are okay but one use of the Semco and the
discussion is forever over...
The PR1826 Adhesion Promoter (the horrible stink additive) that is a
form of primer for Proseal, should allow improved adhesion to a powder
coated steel canopy tubing. We never use it cause of the stink and the
need to easily repair sealant - regularly into the future. We use
hundreds of plastic/fiberglass embedded scrapers for the task.
Haven't tried Toluene except in removing label adhesive, tape adhesive
and PPG topcoat products. The MEK is more volatile and therefore faster
and dangerous. We also have really large hangars.
John - $00.02
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Subject: Re: RV10-List: MEK Anyone?
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Remember that someone dug up the info previously that ideally
MEK is NOT what you want for doing proseal work, but Toluene.
I guess Proseal is Toluene soluble and not MEK soluble.
Tim
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
Current section: Engine Hookups
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 18
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Mani, at the risk of starting a food fight ..... the rust/corrosion
problem isn't pure baloney. At least in my experience. I'll grant that
maybe you didn't see any in your engine .... and I bet you use yours 50
hours or more a year. Well, maybe not, but I'll bet your airplane isn't
a hangar queen!!! One place you'll see rust is inside the valve covers
of engines that don't get run often enough. And, the one place that
really gets hammered with the rust is the cam followers. Folks looking
for an engine look for a low time ..... but check the engine logs. How
long did it take to put those 700 hours on it? That's one reason why
the recommended TBO is 2000 (or 2200 or 2400 etc) and 12 years ....
whichever comes first. Also notice that I said 'recommended'. It's
only a guide line. So, I'm giving y'all an excuse to fly often ..... it
stretches out the time before you need a top/major ..... and in my book,
that's a good thing.
Linn
do not archive
Mani Ravee wrote:
> Tim, good choice on the Reiff heaters. I have them on my Cessna's
> engine and have been using them for a few years now. Plug it in all
> winter long, ready to fly at a moment's notice. There were talks of
> condensation and corrosion, etc. Pure balooney! I changed my mags last
> year, and when I pulled em, there was absolutely no sign of any
> corrosion in the upper areas of the case. Leave it pugged in if you
> have a temp controled model, like I do. It has a small thermostat
> epoxied onto the sump. Works verywell.
> Mani Ravee
>
> Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson
>
> You're absolutely right Linn. But, I can say the cylinder heaters
> are very good too. I had a Tanis system in my last plane, where
> the probes went in the CHT probe holes. On this plane, I have
> CHT pro bes in the holes and have the Reiff heater bands. Hopefully
> they'll work as well. My initial plug-in test shows them to get
> toasty real fast. I used to go out and I could feel really good
> heat on my exhaust stacks. In fact, if I turned on my engine
> monitor, I could easily see 90 degrees or more on my EGT probe...
> which would be a ways away from the heater, before I started the
> engine. This is on days when it's 0-10F outside. So the systems
> do work well at warming the engine. The sump heater kept the sump
> good and warm too, and I know for sure that the engine turned over
> much easier when it was heated. The times I was forced to have
> no heat when it was 20 degrees outside on the ramp were not fun
> times.
>
> So, I'm 100% for electric pre-heaters when you live up here.
> I also 100% agree that flying is the best wear prevention you
> can do for the engine. I also agree that adding a pre-oiler
> will be a good thing. No arguments here except if som eone tries
> to tell me that I shouldn't use an electric pre-heater in
> Wisconsin, I'll know they're just plain nuts on that issue.
> Too much cold weather experience for me.
>
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> linn walters wrote:
> > --> RV10-List message posted by: linn walters
> >
> > I hit the delete key with most of the pre-oiler stuff, but had to
> > comment on a slight problem: Sump heaters rarely keep the whole
> case
> > toasty warm. The problem that occurs is that the oil, with all that
> > nasty acidic moisture in it is warmer than the top of the engine
> where
> > the cam, cam followers etc. is. So, the warm moist air condenses
> in the
> > top if the case where we don't need it. I understand that cylinder
> > heaters help in this regard, but really don't have any info on
> them.
> > The best thing to do to lessen the acid-water damage is to fly
> often.
> > This als o helps the pre-oiler discussion relating to wear. If
> you're
> > really paranoid, pull the prop through a few times by hand to
> get some
> > oil pushed through the engine to the bearings. No amount of
> cranking,
> > prop pulling, or pre-oilers will get oil to the cylinders/cylinder
> > walls. Aircraft engines are 'dry sump' (relating to the crank
> area) and
> > don't enjoy the luxury of oil being flung around by the crank. The
> > cylinder top end gets it's oil through the lifters and will only
> get
> > that under good oil pressure.
> >
> > Bottom line is that if you use your plane often, and for at
> least an
> > hour, you'll do far more good than pre-oilers ever will. This is a
> > win-win thing .... your engine, your plane, and you will feel much
> > better with frequent exercise!!!
> > Linn ..... just MHO
> > Tim Olson wrote:
> >
> >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson
> >>
> >> Sure, anything would help, but... You really want to heat the
> >> sump so that it's warmer than the air, not heat the air and
> >> hope the sump catches up. If you have the sump cooler than
> >> the air, you'll get much more condensation, like having a cold
> >> glass of water in the hot summer. You want that block to be
> >> nice and warm. Preheat isn't all just about getting the oil
> >> to thin out, but keeping the environmental effects down too.
> >> My hanger gets nasty moist in the spring as the ground thaws.
> >> The metal surfaces of the plane sometimes drip with moisture.
> >> I plug my engines in all year round that the temp is less
> >> than 40F. The engine block stays toasty warm all winter.
> >>
> >>
> >> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
> >> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >>
> >>
> >> Jerry Grimmonpre wrote:
> >>
> >>> My RV's 200HP Lyc is not installed yet. It's in a box made of 1"
> >>> foil faced styrene foam. I've rigged up two incandescent light
> bulbs
> >>> (60w & 75w) with a house thermostat, transformer and relay. This
> >>> set-up heats the entire box to 80*F and the volume of the box is
> >>> larger than that of a cowled engine.
> >>>
> >>> Wouldn't the heat of a couple light bulbs work after the
> engine is
> >>> installed in a hangared airplane? It seems this would act as a
> >>> constant heat source for the entire engine. If the heat could be
> >>> directed up the cooling air exit it might work. How hot do the
> oil
> >>> sump heaters get and what is their watt rating? Anybody out
> there in
> >>> the Northern state have any experience along these lines?
> >>> My 2 cents ....
> >>> Jerry Grimmonpre'
> >> RV8A
> >>> Do not archive
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> *From:* John W. Cox
> >>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 22, 2005 9:30 PM
> >>> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: pre-oiler
> >>>
> >>> Grumpy -
> >>>
> >>> Larry Schlesinger, a Yak owner and MT prop dealer from Wisconsin
> >>> would confirm your information on value of Pre-heaters over
> >>> Pre-oilers. However, as the engine might sit for longer periods of
> >>> time, then the use of a pre-oiler will often reduce the oxidation
> >>> damage of cranking without proper lubricant on the exposed parts
> >>> (cam lobes, lifter face and cylinder walls). It's all about the
> >>> fractions of a second with abrasive action (without lubrication)
> >> that is the issue. Better flow, quicker lubrication. 6 of
> one or
> >>> half a dozen of the other.
> >>>
> >>> Remember, engine rebuilders love the business of replacing worn
> >>> parts (as long as it happens after the warrantee expires). An oil
> >>> pump can only reach minimum operating pressure when the viscosity
> >>> cooperates. If you graphed the arrival of minimum pressure level
> >>> and the fractions of a second to reach Minimum, by the number of
> >>> revolutions at idle - throttle, I would bet it's more than just a
> >>> couple of scuffs before token lubrication. A flight school that
> >>> flies multiple hours per day/ every day has been known to go
> >>> hundreds of hours beyond TBO - then there is the weekend
> warrior who
> >>> flies reasonably often four months of the year, then lets it
> set for
> >>> over six months in a moist Oregon coast al hangar that can't
> figure
> >>> out why his engine(s) are only going 1/3 of TBO.
> >>>
> >>> For a real thrill, get your favorite IA to let you use his
> >>> boroscope
> >>> on a cylinder that sits for months on end and view the significant
> >>> corrosion that forms so quickly. Just do it before using either a
> >>> Pre-Heater or Pre-Oiler. Long as we don't see it, I guess it won't
> >>> matter - Right?
> >>>
> >>> Over the life of an engine TBO, just how many additional
> >>> hours of
> >>> use will compensate for purchase/ install / and use of either a
> >>> Pre-heater or Pre-oiler? That is the question for RV builders.
> >>>
> >>> John - $00.02
> >>>
> >>> Do not
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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MessageGary's right. Whether MEK,or MEKP or toulene or Acetone or whatever. Read
and understand the MSDS or you risk eliminating your DNA from the gene pool.
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Specketer
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 10:43 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: MEK Anyone?
MEKP is Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide. It is definitely not what you want to
use as a solvent. As mentioned it is a catalyst for many resin systems. Treat
it with care though as it is very rough on the eyes.
Gary Specketer
Tech Councilor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of millstees@ameritech.net
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 10:31 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: MEK Anyone?
There is a product called MEKP...I don't remember what the P meant. When I
was building a glass airplane (CompAir 7), we used it as a catalyst for the fibergrass
resin.
Steve Mills
RV-10, starting tail cone
----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Saint
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 6:55 AM
Subject: RV10-List: MEK Anyone?
Speaking of MEK, down here in Ecuador it is hard to find. There is a place
that says they have MEC (the Spanish version of MEK), but it is Methyl Ethyl
Ketone _______. I don't remember what the last word was. Is anyone familiar
with another version of MEK? He said that it is hard to get the plain MEK because
it is used to make Cocaine, he says. Anybody with info on this would be
helpful, as it is going to be hard to do the Proseal thing without it.
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
Fax: 815-377-3694
I am in Ecuador until May, 2006. If you have questions regarding I-TEC,
please call the office at 352-465-4545. If you would like to talk to me, please
call me at 352-505-1899. This number won't always be on, but it has voicemail
that will get to me in Ecuador.
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 10:04 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
Latex does squat against MEK. Invisible gloves without anything else is
your best bet lacking butyl gloves which are hard to find. You are better off
not wearing any gloves without one of those two items. Gloves that are permeable
to MEK will let it in and keep it in contact with your skin (hot hand or
other sensation) where no gloves will at least let it evaporate off. The big
problem is the vapors but submersing your hands in the stuff isn't much better
(i.e.: permeable gloves).
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 8:35 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
Mani,
I see your an MD so I assume your not allergic to latex gloves? Were you
wearing gloves? Just my first thought when you mentioned itching of the hands.
I have heard of reactions with some gloves but not others.
Rick S.
40185
Fuselage
RV10-List Email Forum -
more:
bsp;
bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -
bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 20
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|
Ketone in English and Cetone in Spanish.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
Fax: 815-377-3694
I am in Ecuador until May, 2006. If you have questions regarding I-TEC,
please call the office at 352-465-4545. If you would like to talk to me,
please call me at 352-505-1899. This number won't always be on, but it has
voicemail that will get to me in Ecuador.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn walters
Subject: Re: RV10-List: MEK Anyone?
The "P" is for Peroxide. I hope someone will tell us what the "C" is ....
in english!!!
Linn
do not archive
millstees@ameritech.net wrote:
There is a product called MEKP...I don't remember what the P meant. When I
was building a glass airplane (CompAir 7), we used it as a catalyst for the
fibergrass resin.
Steve Mills
RV-10, starting tail cone
----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Saint <mailto:jesse@itecusa.org>
Subject: RV10-List: MEK Anyone?
Speaking of MEK, down here in Ecuador it is hard to find. There is a place
that says they have MEC (the Spanish version of MEK), but it is Methyl Ethyl
Ketone _______. I don't remember what the last word was. Is anyone
familiar with another version of MEK? He said that it is hard to get the
plain MEK because it is used to make Cocaine, he says. Anybody with info on
this would be helpful, as it is going to be hard to do the Proseal thing
without it.
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
Fax: 815-377-3694
I am in Ecuador until May, 2006. If you have questions regarding I-TEC,
please call the office at 352-465-4545. If you would like to talk to me,
please call me at 352-505-1899. This number won't always be on, but it has
voicemail that will get to me in Ecuador.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
Latex does squat against MEK. Invisible gloves without anything else is
your best bet lacking butyl gloves which are hard to find. You are better
off not wearing any gloves without one of those two items. Gloves that are
permeable to MEK will let it in and keep it in contact with your skin (hot
hand or other sensation) where no gloves will at least let it evaporate off.
The big problem is the vapors but submersing your hands in the stuff isn't
much better (i.e.: permeable gloves).
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Allergy anyone?
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <mailto:ricksked@earthlink.net>
<ricksked@earthlink.net>
Mani,
I see your an MD so I assume your not allergic to latex gloves? Were you
wearing gloves? Just my first thought when you mentioned itching of the
hands. I have heard of reactions with some gloves but not others.
Rick S.
40185
Fuselage
====================================
RV10-List Email Forum -
more:
bsp;
====================================
bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -
bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n
====================================
_____
Message 21
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|
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Eric Kallio" <scout019@msn.com>
I have ordered my empennage kit from Van's allready. Wanted to beat the new
year price increase. I am getting ready to build workbenches (I am thinking
about building 2), and I want to get input from other builders as to what
works and doesn't as far as workbench designs. Any input is welcomed as well
as a location to get good plans, or a picture I can build from. Thanks.
Eric Kallio
Message 22
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Linn, I apologize. I wrote my note BEFORE I read your note which was after
I sent it away and said OH S**T !
You are right, I fly all winter long , at least twice a week and it is
always for more than an hour.
:-)
Mani
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn walters
Subject: Re: RV10-List: pre-oiler
Mani, at the risk of starting a food fight ..... the rust/corrosion problem
isn't pure baloney. At least in my experience. I'll grant that maybe you
didn't see any in your engine .... and I bet you use yours 50 hours or more
a year. Well, maybe not, but I'll bet your airplane isn't a hangar queen!!!
One place you'll see rust is inside the valve covers of engines that don't
get run often enough. And, the one place that really gets hammered with the
rust is the cam followers. Folks looking for an engine look for a low time
..... but check the engine logs. How long did it take to put those 700
hours on it? That's one reason why the recommended TBO is 2000 (or 2200 or
2400 etc) and 12 years .... whichever comes first. Also notice that I said
'recommended'. It's only a guide line. So, I'm giving y'all an excuse to
fly often ..... it stretches out the time before you need a top/major .....
and in my book, that's a good thing.
Linn
do not archive
Mani Ravee wrote:
Tim, good choice on the Reiff heaters. I have them on my Cessna's engine and
have been using them for a few years now. Plug it in all winter long, ready
to fly at a moment's notice. There were talks of condensation and corrosion,
etc. Pure balooney! I changed my mags last year, and when I pulled em, there
was absolutely no sign of any corrosion in the upper areas of the case.
Leave it pugged in if you have a temp controled model, like I do. It has a
small thermostat epoxied onto the sump. Works verywell.
Mani Ravee
Tim Olson <mailto:Tim@MyRV10.com> <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson
You're absolutely right Linn. But, I can say the cylinder heaters
are very good too. I had a Tanis system in my last plane, where
the probes went in the CHT probe holes. On this plane, I have
CHT pro bes in the holes and have the Reiff heater bands. Hopefully
they'll work as well. My initial plug-in test shows them to get
toasty real fast. I used to go out and I could feel really good
heat on my exhaust stacks. In fact, if I turned on my engine
monitor, I could easily see 90 degrees or more on my EGT probe...
which would be a ways away from the heater, before I started the
engine. This is on days when it's 0-10F outside. So the systems
do work well at warming the engine. The sump heater kept the sump
good and warm too, and I know for sure that the engine turned over
much easier when it was heated. The times I was forced to have
no heat when it was 20 degrees outside on the ramp were not fun
times.
So, I'm 100% for electric pre-heaters when you live up here.
I also 100% agree that flying is the best wear prevention you
can do for the engine. I also agree that adding a pre-oiler
will be a good thing. No arguments here except if som eone tries
to tell me that I shouldn't use an electric pre-heater in
Wisconsin, I'll know they're just plain nuts on that issue.
Too much cold weather experience for me.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
DO NOT ARCHIVE
linn walters wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: linn walters
>
> I hit the delete key with most of the pre-oiler stuff, but had to
> comment on a slight problem: Sump heaters rarely keep the whole case
> toasty warm. The problem that occurs is that the oil, with all that
> nasty acidic moisture in it is warmer than the top of the engine where
> the cam, cam followers etc. is. So, the warm moist air condenses in the
> top if the case where we don't need it. I understand that cylinder
> heaters help in this regard, but really don't have any info on them.
> The best thing to do to lessen the acid-water damage is to fly often.
> This als o helps the pre-oiler discussion relating to wear. If you're
> really paranoid, pull the prop through a few times by hand to get some
> oil pushed through the engine to the bearings. No amount of cranking,
> prop pulling, or pre-oilers will get oil to the cylinders/cylinder
> walls. Aircraft engines are 'dry sump' (relating to the crank area) and
> don't enjoy the luxury of oil being flung around by the crank. The
> cylinder top end gets it's oil through the lifters and will only get
> that under good oil pressure.
>
> Bottom line is that if you use your plane often, and for at least an
> hour, you'll do far more good than pre-oilers ever will. This is a
> win-win thing .... your engine, your plane, and you will feel much
> better with frequent exercise!!!
> Linn ..... just MHO
> Tim Olson wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson
>>
>> Sure, anything would help, but... You really want to heat the
>> sump so that it's warmer than the air, not heat the air and
>> hope the sump catches up. If you have the sump cooler than
>> the air, you'll get much more condensation, like having a cold
>> glass of water in the hot summer. You want that block to be
>> nice and warm. Preheat isn't all just about getting the oil
>> to thin out, but keeping the environmental effects down too.
>> My hanger gets nasty moist in the spring as the ground thaws.
>> The metal surfaces of the plane sometimes drip with moisture.
>> I plug my engines in all year round that the temp is less
>> than 40F. The engine block stays toasty warm all winter.
>>
>>
>> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>
>>
>> Jerry Grimmonpre wrote:
>>
>>> My RV's 200HP Lyc is not installed yet. It's in a box made of 1"
>>> foil faced styrene foam. I've rigged up two incandescent light bulbs
>>> (60w & 75w) with a house thermostat, transformer and relay. This
>>> set-up heats the entire box to 80*F and the volume of the box is
>>> larger than that of a cowled engine.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't the heat of a couple light bulbs work after the engine is
>>> installed in a hangared airplane? It seems this would act as a
>>> constant heat source for the entire engine. If the heat could be
>>> directed up the cooling air exit it might work. How hot do the oil
>>> sump heaters get and what is their watt rating? Anybody out there in
>>> the Northern state have any experience along these lines?
>>> My 2 cents ....
>>> Jerry Grimmonpre'
>> RV8A
>>> Do not archive
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* John W. Cox
>>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 22, 2005 9:30 PM
>>> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: pre-oiler
>>>
>>> Grumpy -
>>>
>>> Larry Schlesinger, a Yak owner and MT prop dealer from Wisconsin
>>> would confirm your information on value of Pre-heaters over
>>> Pre-oilers. However, as the engine might sit for longer periods of
>>> time, then the use of a pre-oiler will often reduce the oxidation
>>> damage of cranking without proper lubricant on the exposed parts
>>> (cam lobes, lifter face and cylinder walls). It's all about the
>>> fractions of a second with abrasive action (without lubrication)
>> that is the issue. Better flow, quicker lubrication. 6 of one or
>>> half a dozen of the other.
>>>
>>> Remember, engine rebuilders love the business of replacing worn
>>> parts (as long as it happens after the warrantee expires). An oil
>>> pump can only reach minimum operating pressure when the viscosity
>>> cooperates. If you graphed the arrival of minimum pressure level
>>> and the fractions of a second to reach Minimum, by the number of
>>> revolutions at idle - throttle, I would bet it's more than just a
>>> couple of scuffs before token lubrication. A flight school that
>>> flies multiple hours per day/ every day has been known to go
>>> hundreds of hours beyond TBO - then there is the weekend warrior who
>>> flies reasonably often four months of the year, then lets it set for
>>> over six months in a moist Oregon coast al hangar that can't figure
>>> out why his engine(s) are only going 1/3 of TBO.
>>>
>>> For a real thrill, get your favorite IA to let you use his
>>> boroscope
>>> on a cylinder that sits for months on end and view the significant
>>> corrosion that forms so quickly. Just do it before using either a
>>> Pre-Heater or Pre-Oiler. Long as we don't see it, I guess it won't
>>> matter - Right?
>>>
>>> Over the life of an engine TBO, just how many additional
>>> hours of
>>> use will compensate for purchase/ install / and use of either a
>>> Pre-heater or Pre-oiler? That is the question for RV builders.
>>>
>>> John - $00.02
>>>
>>> Do not
_____
Message 23
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Rene Felker" <rene@felker.com>
I don't know about a good design, but I have an old 4x8 work bench I use. I
also went to the aviation department of SAMS Club and got two folding
tables. I can easily move the folding table around but still have the solid
4x8 table when I need it. I am blessed with a great wife that has given me
2.25 bays of our three car garage.
Rene' Felker
N423CF
40322
50% Fuselage
80% Wings
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Kallio
Subject: RV10-List: workbench
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Eric Kallio" <scout019@msn.com>
I have ordered my empennage kit from Van's allready. Wanted to beat the new
year price increase. I am getting ready to build workbenches (I am thinking
about building 2), and I want to get input from other builders as to what
works and doesn't as far as workbench designs. Any input is welcomed as well
as a location to get good plans, or a picture I can build from. Thanks.
Eric Kallio
Message 24
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Eric
Congratulations on your decision and on the journey that you are
embarking on. My $.02, build as many tables/benches as you can
comfortably get into the space you will be building in. I'm building in
a somewhat limited workspace (15'x15') I started with 2 tables, 1=
3'x8', and the second 2'x8'. When I got to the wings I added another
3'x4' and butted it to the 3x8, to accommodate the length of the wings.
I used a design developed by an EAA chapter somewhere, they've
published plans and the things are pretty easy to build and pretty
rugged at the same time. Here's the link
http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/worktabl/worktabl.htm
Good luck
Deems Davis # 406
Wings
http://deemsrv10.com/
Eric Kallio wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Eric Kallio" <scout019@msn.com>
>
> I have ordered my empennage kit from Van's allready. Wanted to beat
> the new year price increase. I am getting ready to build workbenches
> (I am thinking about building 2), and I want to get input from other
> builders as to what works and doesn't as far as workbench designs. Any
> input is welcomed as well as a location to get good plans, or a
> picture I can build from. Thanks.
>
> Eric Kallio
>
> _________________________________________________________________
>
>
Message 25
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Mani Ravee" <maniravee@sbcglobal.net>
Here is a good design and easy to build. These are the 3 feet wide tables
and not the 2s.
http://www.eaa72.org/tech/Table/Table.htm
Mani Ravee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Kallio
Subject: RV10-List: workbench
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Eric Kallio" <scout019@msn.com>
I have ordered my empennage kit from Van's allready. Wanted to beat the new
year price increase. I am getting ready to build workbenches (I am thinking
about building 2), and I want to get input from other builders as to what
works and doesn't as far as workbench designs. Any input is welcomed as well
as a location to get good plans, or a picture I can build from. Thanks.
Eric Kallio
Message 26
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@deej.net>
Deems Davis wrote:
> I used a design developed by an EAA chapter somewhere, they've
> published plans and the things are pretty easy to build and pretty
> rugged at the same time. Here's the link
> http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/worktabl/worktabl.htm
I'll second this. I built 2 of them at 3x6 feet and
placed them end to end. When I get to the wings, I'll
add a third. Easy to build, and very sturdy.
-Dj
Message 27
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Richard Sipp" <rsipp@earthlink.net>
I have found it very handy to have the top surface overhang at least on the
ends and also on the front and back as well. This allows clamping parts to
the table.
Dick Sipp
RV4
RV10 #65
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dj Merrill" <deej@deej.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: workbench
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@deej.net>
>
> Deems Davis wrote:
>> I used a design developed by an EAA chapter somewhere, they've published
>> plans and the things are pretty easy to build and pretty rugged at the
>> same time. Here's the link
>> http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/worktabl/worktabl.htm
>
> I'll second this. I built 2 of them at 3x6 feet and
> placed them end to end. When I get to the wings, I'll
> add a third. Easy to build, and very sturdy.
Message 28
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@deej.net>
Richard Sipp wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Richard Sipp" <rsipp@earthlink.net>
>
> I have found it very handy to have the top surface overhang at least on
> the ends and also on the front and back as well. This allows clamping
> parts to the table.
Good point - I should have mentioned that as well.
I have a 1.5 inch overhang all the way around, and have found it
indespensible for clamping.
-Dj
Message 29
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bobby J. Hughes" <bhughes@qnsi.net>
The EAA1000 benches are very sturdy and will last a lifetime. I built
two but with a slight modification. Cut the top oversize to leave about
a 2-3" clamp edge all the way around. Come in very hand.
Bobby
40116
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Subject: Re: RV10-List: workbench
--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Eric
Congratulations on your decision and on the journey that you are
embarking on. My $.02, build as many tables/benches as you can
comfortably get into the space you will be building in. I'm building in
a somewhat limited workspace (15'x15') I started with 2 tables, 13'x8', and the
second 2'x8'. When I got to the wings I added another
3'x4' and butted it to the 3x8, to accommodate the length of the wings.
I used a design developed by an EAA chapter somewhere, they've
published plans and the things are pretty easy to build and pretty
rugged at the same time. Here's the link
http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/worktabl/worktabl.htm
Good luck
Deems Davis # 406
Wings
http://deemsrv10.com/
Eric Kallio wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Eric Kallio" <scout019@msn.com>
>
> I have ordered my empennage kit from Van's allready. Wanted to beat
> the new year price increase. I am getting ready to build workbenches
> (I am thinking about building 2), and I want to get input from other
> builders as to what works and doesn't as far as workbench designs. Any
> input is welcomed as well as a location to get good plans, or a
> picture I can build from. Thanks.
>
> Eric Kallio
>
> _________________________________________________________________
>
>
Message 30
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
Rene,
Only 2.25 bays. On good days I am blessed with a great wife. I took
them all and put up a 12'x30' foot shed to hold all my other s#!t
(stuff). The cars can stay out in the cold. It is good exercise
scrapping off the ice and snow.
Rene Felker wrote:
>...
>
> I am blessed with a great wife that has given me
>2.25 bays of our three car garage.
>
>Do not Archive
>
>
Message 31
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--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
I have 2 modified EA type work benches. The tops are solid core doors,
so they are 30" wide. I made them 35" high (to the top of the work
surface). If I were to build them again I would make the standard table
height (30"). I am 5'-10" and having them slight lightly lower than
they are would make it easier riveting and drilling. Also, I only left
3/4" overhang on each side. An overhang of 1 -1/2" would be much
better. It would also make the bottom shelf 24" wide, and I could have
gotten 2 from a 4x8 sheet of plywood. Since the solid core doors are
nice and heavy, I did not fasten them to the frame. This way I can move
the top around to get more or less overhang, depending on what I am
doing. I also modified the frame on one side so I can slide the door
down and mount the dimpler, slide the other table on the other side of
the dimpler, and dimple away. Then when I am done I can store the
dimpler and free up some room.
The EA design make for a very strong bench.
The folding table make them easy to store and free up some valuable work
shop area.
I also have a bench that is a full 3/4" thick 4x8 sheet of plywood
sitting on top on old kitchen table.
They all work well.
You can see photos of my benches here
<http://lrosen.nerv10.com/Construct/tools/Workshop/index.html>
Larry Rosen
40356
Fuselage
Eric Kallio wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Eric Kallio" <scout019@msn.com>
>
> I have ordered my empennage kit from Van's allready. Wanted to beat
> the new year price increase. I am getting ready to build workbenches
> (I am thinking about building 2), and I want to get input from other
> builders as to what works and doesn't as far as workbench designs. Any
> input is welcomed as well as a location to get good plans, or a
> picture I can build from. Thanks.
>
> Eric Kallio
>
> _________________________________________________________________
>
>
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