Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:57 AM - Re: Alodine inside fuel tanks? (James Hein)
2. 04:18 AM - Re: Alodine inside fuel tanks? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
3. 04:38 AM - 24V Lessons (Harris, Jeremy P)
4. 04:53 AM - Re: Photos Have Been Posted (Harris, Jeremy P)
5. 06:41 AM - Surecheck VRX for Sale (H PAINE)
6. 06:49 AM - Re: Heating issue in center console (Bobby J. Hughes)
7. 07:13 AM - Re: 24V Lessons (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
8. 07:59 AM - Trim Tab Cable Anchor Bracket (Joseph Czachorowski)
9. 08:20 AM - Soundproofing the -10 (Tom Gesele)
10. 08:58 AM - Re: Alodine inside fuel tanks? (Chris Johnston)
11. 09:00 AM - Re: Soundproofing the -10 (John W. Cox)
12. 02:26 PM - Re: Alodine inside fuel tanks? (linn walters)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Alodine inside fuel tanks? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
Belief is one thing, documentation is another..... Anyone have any
documentation?
I would have alodined my tanks if I had documentation saying it was ok.
I have alodined everything else.
-Jim
Tim Olson wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> I gotta believe John Cox on this one. I've owned a plane
> that had alodined tanks inside. They stay corrosion free
> easily that way. Your A&P is probably confusing Alodining
> with some sort of primer or tank sealer. There are many
> things that people have done over the years inside tanks
> and most things have ended up bad eventually, from bladders,
> to coatings. Alodine is just a surface conversion. Sure,
> if you scrub it hard and haven't rinsed it well, you'll
> get some brown stuff to come off, but that's no worse
> than any future corrosion would give off. And it's not
> like it will ever come off as a flake. I doubt there's
> any chance it could even plug a filter...it would just
> flow through the engine and be burned with the fuel.
> I alodined the inside of my tanks, but that's not saying
> that anyone else should. I was just willing to take the
> extra steps for long life.
>
> Also, John isn't just a casual reference when it comes
> to things related to aviation and inspection. For those
> that know him, he's definitel got the credentials when it
> comes to this sort of info. He's a great guy to get
> to know when you have those uncommon questions.
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> James Hein wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
>>
>> It had to do with the avgas slowly eating away, or chemically
>> stripping, the alodine from the inside of the tank. Since I had not
>> seen, nor could find any reference, any recommendation to alodine
>> fuel tanks, I decided its better not to. Again, it was explained to
>> me that it takes a few years, but it would happen.
>>
>> On the other hand, I have been alodining and priming with PPG DP50LF
>> primer *everything*, up until the fuel tanks. If they corrode to
>> nothing, at least they're replaceable!
>>
>> If you have datasheets, or references to using alodine inside fuel
>> tanks, I'd love to see it.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> -Jim
>>
>> John W. Cox wrote:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>>>
>>> James - For purposes of more clarification, I would be interested in
>>> hearing
>>> about your beating (The A&P advise).
>>>
>>> Alodine is a chemical conversion process and does not come off without
>>> abrasion or chemical removal. Its purpose is to forestall or prevent
>>> corrosion. Aircraft exterior skins which are chemically or physically
>>> (bead blasted) paint stripped can still have the coating on years
>>> later.
>>> I would be happy to provide pictures of its longevity. At our airline,
>>> all tanks are alodined, primed, epoxy painted and prosealed. Jet A and
>>> micro-organisms are a lot more intrusive than 100LL. Come to think of
>>> it, I have never seen alodine peel off. Once corrosion begins it is
>>> much like cancer. You have to remove it, covering does not work.
>>>
>>> I think this is an OWT. Vans latest RVator in the spirit of "less,
>>> cheaper and faster" addressed the ability to forgo the additional care
>>> and attention to surface preparation. Alodine is not black magic, it
>>> just takes more TLC than many builders are willing to invest in their
>>> aircraft. It is an added investment which keeps on giving returns for
>>> decades to come.
>>>
>>> For Chris... I think alodine shows an additional measure of care and
>>> consideration for the material longevity. Much like hangaring, cleaning
>>> and non abusive use. Many are willing to pass up the added protection
>>> in the pursuit of "Just Building it". It is all about flying sooner.
>>>
>>> John - $00.02
>>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 12:40 PM
>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alodine inside fuel tanks?
>>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
>>>
>>> I have been warned against it. The reason was that the Alodine will
>>> eventually come off in the tanks. The only corrosion protection you
>>> need
>>>
>>> is the Alclad and Proseal.
>>>
>>> I was going to Alodine my tanks until I was beaten into submission
>>> by this A&P/RV-8 builder.
>>>
>>> -Jim 40384
>>>
>>> Chris Johnston wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris Johnston"
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <CJohnston@popsound.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hey all - Here's a question... Are some of you out there alodining
>>>> internal fuel
>>>> tank parts? I was under the impression that that was no good.
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> cj
>>>> #40410
>>>> wings
>>>> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Alodine inside fuel tanks? |
I also skipped the alodine process on my tanks because I "heard" it was a bad
idea even though I couldn't really understand what would be the problem. No
one else knew why but they also had heard that.
I trust John's knowledge enough to follow his advise on these matters and I wish
I would have done this back then. Fortunately I still can if I want as I
have 25 gallons mixed up and the fuel tank is a tank after all. I may still consider
that If I get the urge before I attach wings.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Fuselage
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 4:57 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alodine inside fuel tanks?
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
Belief is one thing, documentation is another..... Anyone have any documentation?
I would have alodined my tanks if I had documentation saying it was ok.
I have alodined everything else.
-Jim
Tim Olson wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> I gotta believe John Cox on this one. I've owned a plane that had
> alodined tanks inside. They stay corrosion free easily that way.
> Your A&P is probably confusing Alodining with some sort of primer or
> tank sealer. There are many things that people have done over the
> years inside tanks and most things have ended up bad eventually, from
> bladders, to coatings. Alodine is just a surface conversion. Sure,
> if you scrub it hard and haven't rinsed it well, you'll get some brown
> stuff to come off, but that's no worse than any future corrosion would
> give off. And it's not like it will ever come off as a flake. I
> doubt there's any chance it could even plug a filter...it would just
> flow through the engine and be burned with the fuel.
> I alodined the inside of my tanks, but that's not saying that anyone
> else should. I was just willing to take the extra steps for long
> life.
>
> Also, John isn't just a casual reference when it comes to things
> related to aviation and inspection. For those that know him, he's
> definitel got the credentials when it comes to this sort of info.
> He's a great guy to get to know when you have those uncommon
> questions.
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> James Hein wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
>>
>> It had to do with the avgas slowly eating away, or chemically
>> stripping, the alodine from the inside of the tank. Since I had not
>> seen, nor could find any reference, any recommendation to alodine
>> fuel tanks, I decided its better not to. Again, it was explained to
>> me that it takes a few years, but it would happen.
>>
>> On the other hand, I have been alodining and priming with PPG DP50LF
>> primer *everything*, up until the fuel tanks. If they corrode to
>> nothing, at least they're replaceable!
>>
>> If you have datasheets, or references to using alodine inside fuel
>> tanks, I'd love to see it.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> -Jim
>>
>> John W. Cox wrote:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox"
>>> --> <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>>>
>>> James - For purposes of more clarification, I would be interested in
>>> hearing about your beating (The A&P advise).
>>>
>>> Alodine is a chemical conversion process and does not come off
>>> without abrasion or chemical removal. Its purpose is to forestall or
>>> prevent corrosion. Aircraft exterior skins which are chemically or
>>> physically (bead blasted) paint stripped can still have the coating
>>> on years later.
>>> I would be happy to provide pictures of its longevity. At our
>>> airline, all tanks are alodined, primed, epoxy painted and
>>> prosealed. Jet A and micro-organisms are a lot more intrusive than
>>> 100LL. Come to think of it, I have never seen alodine peel off.
>>> Once corrosion begins it is much like cancer. You have to remove it, covering
does not work.
>>>
>>> I think this is an OWT. Vans latest RVator in the spirit of "less,
>>> cheaper and faster" addressed the ability to forgo the additional
>>> care and attention to surface preparation. Alodine is not black
>>> magic, it just takes more TLC than many builders are willing to
>>> invest in their aircraft. It is an added investment which keeps on
>>> giving returns for decades to come.
>>>
>>> For Chris... I think alodine shows an additional measure of care and
>>> consideration for the material longevity. Much like hangaring,
>>> cleaning and non abusive use. Many are willing to pass up the added
>>> protection in the pursuit of "Just Building it". It is all about flying sooner.
>>>
>>> John - $00.02
>>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James
>>> Hein
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 12:40 PM
>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alodine inside fuel tanks?
>>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
>>>
>>> I have been warned against it. The reason was that the Alodine will
>>> eventually come off in the tanks. The only corrosion protection you
>>> need
>>>
>>> is the Alclad and Proseal.
>>>
>>> I was going to Alodine my tanks until I was beaten into submission
>>> by this A&P/RV-8 builder.
>>>
>>> -Jim 40384
>>>
>>> Chris Johnston wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris Johnston"
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <CJohnston@popsound.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hey all - Here's a question... Are some of you out there alodining
>>>> internal fuel tank parts? I was under the impression that that was
>>>> no good.
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> cj
>>>> #40410
>>>> wings
>>>> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Message 3
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Harris, Jeremy P" <jeremy.p.harris@boeing.com>
Since the discussion of 24v aircraft has popped up... I thought you
might be interested in some of the challenges Rick and I have run into
making the RV-10 airplane run on 24V. The avionics were the easy part
since most are designed to run off 24V. The tricky items were the 12V
accessories, flap system, indicators, lights, and trim motors.
Here's a list of some of our modifications:
1. Flap System - Vans/ Show Planes OEM
Required new Flap Positing System control box from Show planes
rated at 24V (Approximately $50-100 fee to modify)
New Flap Motor - Had to replace Pitman 12V motor that came in
Van's flap system with a 24V variant of the motor. Required sending the
assembly and new motor back to manufacturer of flap actuator to get the
new motor installed in the actuator (had to press on a new gear to
shaft) - Cost was shipping and a minor checkout charge
2. Trim Indicators - Ray Allen LED bar type
Require 12V power supply - had to create 12V voltage regulators
from Radio Shack - low cost but time consuming
3. Trim Motors - Ray Allen
Trim motors are all 12V. We are using Blue Mountain Power board
which output 12V to trim system - Without BMA board, another converter
would be required.
4. Lighting Dimmer - LC-40 Flight Data Systems
Stock dimmer Van's sells is not 24V. Requires a mod be made at
factory to replace some diodes. Low cost - but time consuming - Best to
order directly from Flight Data Systems and get the 24V one the first
time
5. Van's Firewall Forward - Alternator
Alternator in kit is 12V - need 24V... Have to buy somewhere
else...
6. Starter - Stock engine through vans will come with 12V starter -
must contact engine manufacturer directly and request 24 volt starter.
7. Solenoids
Ones supplied by Vans are all 12V - need to get 24v from other
supplier
8. Battery Tray must be modified to fit larger battery (24v battery way
about 2 times the size of 12V
9. Stock lighting is typically 12V - A regulator was necessary for
baggage lights and other lights planned for the airplane which are not
available in 24V.
10. Battery Charger - Had to buy a 24V battery charger - more expensive
than the typical 12V model available. $100-200.
11. All lights supplied by vans are typically 12V. Will require
changing out the light bulbs for 24v type. Can be a little pricey for
a/c bulbs. However, if you can get them sent to you 24V the first time,
you can eliminate have a useless spare set of 12V bulbs laying around
the shop.
Pretty much everything else was available in 24v without much issue.
Lighting transformers, pitot tubes, radios, instruments are all
available 24v. About my only concern remaining would be getting stuck
at some small airport somewhere that there isn't a 24V external power
supply to jump the aircraft. However, if you have a spare set of jumper
cables and 2 car batteries you can get 24V easy enough.
Hope this helps any of you planning on going 24V.
Jeremy P. Harris
Integrated Missile Defense
BMDS Architectures Lab
The Boeing Company
Washington, DC
Desk: (703) 414-6057 Dept: AV-2L-B27T
Cell: (703) 627-6500
Fax: (703) 414-6372
MC: 793C-G007
Office: 825B
-----Original Message-----
From: John Cleary [mailto:johncleary@mangertonnsw.com]
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 1:07 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Negative Battery Cable Connection
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Cleary"
--> <johncleary@mangertonnsw.com>
Rick,
Very helpful pictures.
Thank you for taking the trouble,
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Conti, Rick
Sent: Friday, 13 January 2006 3:41 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Negative Battery Cable Connection
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" <rick.conti@boeing.com>
I have one. See Jeremy's web site for pictures.
http://jharris.net/Aviation/RV_10.htm
Very import, if you order one, ask for the variant that has been rotated
90 degrees. They'll know what you mean. I asked and they modified the
unit for the 10. Notice in the pictures the connectors face aft, veeery
nice.
Thank You
Rick Conti
office: 703-414-6141
cell: 571-215-6134
-----Original Message-----
From: John Cleary [mailto:johncleary@mangertonnsw.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:49 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Negative Battery Cable Connection
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Cleary"
<johncleary@mangertonnsw.com>
Rick,
Are you planning to use one of the Blue Mountains EFIS?
I agree wholeheartedly with you on the 24 volt explanation in 'Wiring
for Smart People'. For anybody who hasn't read it, it is downloadable
free from the Blue Mountains web site at the following link.
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/download.php#appnotes
John Cleary
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Conti, Rick
Sent: Thursday, 12 January 2006 5:50 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Negative Battery Cable Connection
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" <rick.conti@boeing.com>
Before I answer, why 2 batteries? I bought one 24 volt battery.
Gregg's (of Blue Mountain Avionics fame) document Wiring for Smart
people makes a good case for 24 volts and he convinced me. My oil
pressure gauge is part of my EFIS, therefore the EFIS must be up and
running when I start the engine. There is too much draw for a 12 volt
system when the starter is cranking and could very likely cause the EFIS
to shut off or reboot. I need to see oil pressure immediately. This is
also true for other avionics that are on when cranking the engine.
While we're on the subject, I installed a flush mounted door in the rear
bulkhead adjacent to the baggage door. Behind the door is the external
power plug connected to a solenoid with a diode. The diode and solenoid
prevent voltage from getting to the battery if the cables are connected
incorrectly.
Thank You
Rick Conti
office: 703-414-6141
cell: 571-215-6134
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly McMullen [mailto:kellym@aviating.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:11 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Negative Battery Cable Connection
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Kelly McMullen" <kellym@aviating.com>
I'm curious what the perceived benefits of 24volts are. On a small
plane, I don't see a significant wt. advantage. Most 24V accessories I
perceive to be more expensive..maybe I'm wrong. Just trying to
understand why I should consider 24V.
Tim Dawson-Townsend said:
> YES!! At least one other person using 24 volts! Hooray for us!
>
>
> Like others, we have two Odyssey batteries, but they are wired in
series
> . . .
>
>
> (Plus two little ones up front that are also in series . . .)
>
>
> TDT
>
> 40025
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Photos Have Been Posted |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Harris, Jeremy P" <jeremy.p.harris@boeing.com>
I put an image of the template we used to fabricate the center console
on my website: http://jharris.net/Aviation/RV_10.htm
It's not exactly what we used but it will give you the general idea. We
make all of our sheet metal patterns out of white poster board and use
them to test fit everything before we cut & bend expensive sheet metal.
Jeremy
Jeremy P. Harris
Integrated Missile Defense
BMDS Architectures Lab
The Boeing Company
Washington, DC
Desk: (703) 414-6057 Dept: AV-2L-B27T
Cell: (703) 627-6500
Fax: (703) 414-6372
MC: 793C-G007
Office: 825B
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Rosen [mailto:LarryRosen@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Photos Have Been Posted
--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
Rick,
Thanks for sharing the modifications.
I would like to see some additional photos of the console you fabricated
for below the panel and above the tunnel.
Larry Rosen
Message 5
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| Subject: | Surecheck VRX for Sale |
Cc: "Boyd C. Braem" <rocket-list@matronics.com>, rv10-list@matronics.com
--> RV10-List message posted by: H PAINE <bluebird266@dslextreme.com>
Surecheck VRX 8 months
New. Works great
Need $$ for next project
1st $550.00 takes it
contact Harry off list at
bluebird@dslextreme.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Heating issue in center console |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bobby J. Hughes" <bhughes@qnsi.net>
A buddy of mine is near completion of a Lancair ES. His firewall is
composite and has a insulated, fire rated reflective blanked over it
between the engine and the firewall. This might help.
Bobby Hughes
(waiting on finish kit)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Heating issue in center console
--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
Tim,
The thread is on VansAirForce Forums in the RV-10 section titled "Hot
Tunnels"
This link should work
<http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=4187>
Larry Rosen
Tim Lewis wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Lewis <Tim_Lewis@msm.umr.edu>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" <rick.conti@boeing.com>
>
> >6. False floor - remember the heating issue in the center
> > console? I spoke with the pilot who posted that data. Jeremy and I
> >considered venting the center area, but couldn't find a good way to
> >get the vented air out of the plane. Instead, several layers of
> >insulation have been installed under the false floor. Hopefully
> >this will do the job. I was told the heat was caused by the cowling
> >air exit being located directly in the center of the fuselage. It
> >is not an exhaust gas temperature issue.
>
> Regarding Rick's item 6 (above), I'm having difficulty locating this
> thread in the RV-10 list emails. Can anybody tell me the name of the
> poster, and/or when the thread was discussed, or perhaps the title of
> the thread?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tim Lewis
>
Message 7
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
Here's what we did:
1.-4.) Created a "12V bus" that is fed by a 20 Amp voltage converter.
The Flaps, Trim, and Fuel Pump are connected to this bus.
5.-6.) 24 Volt alternators and starter from B&C Specialties.
7.) As mentioned before, finding good contactors took a little effort,
but got some nice ones from Mouser.
8.) As mentioned before, 2 12V Odyessy batteries used.
9.) Running two 12v LED lights in series for dome lights.
10.) With two 12V batteries, can charge them separately with 12v
charger, or together with 24V.
11.) Not using Van's lights. Using 24 volt lights in most cases.
Strobe supply takes either voltage.
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harris,
Jeremy P
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 7:35 AM
Subject: RV10-List: 24V Lessons
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Harris, Jeremy P"
<jeremy.p.harris@boeing.com>
Since the discussion of 24v aircraft has popped up... I thought you
might be interested in some of the challenges Rick and I have run into
making the RV-10 airplane run on 24V. The avionics were the easy part
since most are designed to run off 24V. The tricky items were the 12V
accessories, flap system, indicators, lights, and trim motors.
Here's a list of some of our modifications:
1. Flap System - Vans/ Show Planes OEM
Required new Flap Positing System control box from Show planes
rated at 24V (Approximately $50-100 fee to modify)
New Flap Motor - Had to replace Pitman 12V motor that came in
Van's flap system with a 24V variant of the motor. Required sending the
assembly and new motor back to manufacturer of flap actuator to get the
new motor installed in the actuator (had to press on a new gear to
shaft) - Cost was shipping and a minor checkout charge
2. Trim Indicators - Ray Allen LED bar type
Require 12V power supply - had to create 12V voltage regulators
from Radio Shack - low cost but time consuming
3. Trim Motors - Ray Allen
Trim motors are all 12V. We are using Blue Mountain Power board
which output 12V to trim system - Without BMA board, another converter
would be required.
4. Lighting Dimmer - LC-40 Flight Data Systems
Stock dimmer Van's sells is not 24V. Requires a mod be made at
factory to replace some diodes. Low cost - but time consuming - Best to
order directly from Flight Data Systems and get the 24V one the first
time
5. Van's Firewall Forward - Alternator
Alternator in kit is 12V - need 24V... Have to buy somewhere
else...
6. Starter - Stock engine through vans will come with 12V starter -
must contact engine manufacturer directly and request 24 volt starter.
7. Solenoids
Ones supplied by Vans are all 12V - need to get 24v from other
supplier
8. Battery Tray must be modified to fit larger battery (24v battery way
about 2 times the size of 12V
9. Stock lighting is typically 12V - A regulator was necessary for
baggage lights and other lights planned for the airplane which are not
available in 24V.
10. Battery Charger - Had to buy a 24V battery charger - more expensive
than the typical 12V model available. $100-200.
11. All lights supplied by vans are typically 12V. Will require
changing out the light bulbs for 24v type. Can be a little pricey for
a/c bulbs. However, if you can get them sent to you 24V the first time,
you can eliminate have a useless spare set of 12V bulbs laying around
the shop.
Pretty much everything else was available in 24v without much issue.
Lighting transformers, pitot tubes, radios, instruments are all
available 24v. About my only concern remaining would be getting stuck
at some small airport somewhere that there isn't a 24V external power
supply to jump the aircraft. However, if you have a spare set of jumper
cables and 2 car batteries you can get 24V easy enough.
Hope this helps any of you planning on going 24V.
Jeremy P. Harris
Integrated Missile Defense
BMDS Architectures Lab
The Boeing Company
Washington, DC
Desk: (703) 414-6057 Dept: AV-2L-B27T
Cell: (703) 627-6500
Fax: (703) 414-6372
MC: 793C-G007
Office: 825B
-----Original Message-----
From: John Cleary [mailto:johncleary@mangertonnsw.com]
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 1:07 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Negative Battery Cable Connection
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Cleary"
--> <johncleary@mangertonnsw.com>
Rick,
Very helpful pictures.
Thank you for taking the trouble,
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Conti, Rick
Sent: Friday, 13 January 2006 3:41 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Negative Battery Cable Connection
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" <rick.conti@boeing.com>
I have one. See Jeremy's web site for pictures.
http://jharris.net/Aviation/RV_10.htm
Very import, if you order one, ask for the variant that has been rotated
90 degrees. They'll know what you mean. I asked and they modified the
unit for the 10. Notice in the pictures the connectors face aft, veeery
nice.
Thank You
Rick Conti
office: 703-414-6141
cell: 571-215-6134
-----Original Message-----
From: John Cleary [mailto:johncleary@mangertonnsw.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:49 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Negative Battery Cable Connection
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Cleary"
<johncleary@mangertonnsw.com>
Rick,
Are you planning to use one of the Blue Mountains EFIS?
I agree wholeheartedly with you on the 24 volt explanation in 'Wiring
for Smart People'. For anybody who hasn't read it, it is downloadable
free from the Blue Mountains web site at the following link.
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/download.php#appnotes
John Cleary
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Conti, Rick
Sent: Thursday, 12 January 2006 5:50 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Negative Battery Cable Connection
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" <rick.conti@boeing.com>
Before I answer, why 2 batteries? I bought one 24 volt battery.
Gregg's (of Blue Mountain Avionics fame) document Wiring for Smart
people makes a good case for 24 volts and he convinced me. My oil
pressure gauge is part of my EFIS, therefore the EFIS must be up and
running when I start the engine. There is too much draw for a 12 volt
system when the starter is cranking and could very likely cause the EFIS
to shut off or reboot. I need to see oil pressure immediately. This is
also true for other avionics that are on when cranking the engine.
While we're on the subject, I installed a flush mounted door in the rear
bulkhead adjacent to the baggage door. Behind the door is the external
power plug connected to a solenoid with a diode. The diode and solenoid
prevent voltage from getting to the battery if the cables are connected
incorrectly.
Thank You
Rick Conti
office: 703-414-6141
cell: 571-215-6134
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly McMullen [mailto:kellym@aviating.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:11 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Negative Battery Cable Connection
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Kelly McMullen" <kellym@aviating.com>
I'm curious what the perceived benefits of 24volts are. On a small
plane, I don't see a significant wt. advantage. Most 24V accessories I
perceive to be more expensive..maybe I'm wrong. Just trying to
understand why I should consider 24V.
Tim Dawson-Townsend said:
> YES!! At least one other person using 24 volts! Hooray for us!
>
>
> Like others, we have two Odyssey batteries, but they are wired in
series
> . . .
>
>
> (Plus two little ones up front that are also in series . . .)
>
>
> TDT
>
> 40025
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Trim Tab Cable Anchor Bracket |
Guys,
Dave made up some anchor brackets out of 6061 aluminum billet. He copied the
exact angle of Vans W-415 weldment (you know the part with the "tack welded"
nut). Well, I installed the new aluminum bracket onto the elevator yesterday
and it wouldn't fit real nice. Let me explain....The new bracket was drilled
exactly where Vans says to put his w-415. After installing the trim tab cable
to the trim tab and routing the cable thru the forward elevator spar, the trim
tab access cover would not nest in its recess in the elevator without undue
force. The angle of the bracket (25 degrees) made the cable bind when going
thru the forward spar of the elevator.
I doubled checked this with Vans W-415 part. Same thing. Did anyone else have
this problem? Anyway, Dave came out, measured the proper nut angle (15 degrees),
and made a new bracket. After installing the new bracket I am happy to
say there is no more binding, thru the full range of motion of the cable, while
it is attached to the trim tab. This thing fits perfect.
Btw, I called Vans and talked to Gus about this. Gus's answer was to re-weld
the nut at the proper angle. I told him I would have someone make up a aluminum
bracket from billet. He said that would be best.
Anyway, I caught this in time and Dave will send out all the brackets to those
who already ordered from Dave, with this new 15 degree nut angle. He just
has to make up new ones.
Zack
Message 9
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| Subject: | Soundproofing the -10 |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tom Gesele <tgesele@optonline.net>
For those who have (or are considering) installing soundproofing under the
front/rear floorboards, has anyone made provisions for ensuring that
moisture is not trapped between the bottom skins and the soundproofing?
I am using an epoxy-based primer on all interior surfaces and plan on using
the moisture resistant soundproofing from Spruce which will help, but want
to take steps to ensure no water can get trapped. My concern is that any
water that makes it's way into the cabin could be trapped in an area that
can't be inspected and eventually lead to corrosion problems down the road.
Some of the solutions I've kicked around are gluing the material to the
bottom of the floorboards or installing lightweight tubing to prop the
material off the bottom skins.
Anyone have any opinions on this?
Thanks,
Tom Gesele #40473
Message 10
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| Subject: | Alodine inside fuel tanks? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston@popsound.com>
Hey all -
Thanks for all the input. I'll have to do some soul searching and
further research before I decide. I'll post any hard data that I come
up with. FWIW, everything else on the plane is alodined and primed, so
no, I'm not in the business of cutting corners. I just want to do
what's best. Or what I feel comfortable with....
cj
#40410
wings
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 5:49 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alodine inside fuel tanks?
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
James -
For purposes of more clarification, I would be interested in hearing
about your beating (The A&P advise).
Alodine is a chemical conversion process and does not come off without
abrasion or chemical removal. Its purpose is to forestall or prevent
corrosion. Aircraft exterior skins which are chemically or physically
(bead blasted) paint stripped can still have the coating on years later.
I would be happy to provide pictures of its longevity. At our airline,
all tanks are alodined, primed, epoxy painted and prosealed. Jet A and
micro-organisms are a lot more intrusive than 100LL. Come to think of
it, I have never seen alodine peel off. Once corrosion begins it is
much like cancer. You have to remove it, covering does not work.
I think this is an OWT. Vans latest RVator in the spirit of "less,
cheaper and faster" addressed the ability to forgo the additional care
and attention to surface preparation. Alodine is not black magic, it
just takes more TLC than many builders are willing to invest in their
aircraft. It is an added investment which keeps on giving returns for
decades to come.
For Chris... I think alodine shows an additional measure of care and
consideration for the material longevity. Much like hangaring, cleaning
and non abusive use. Many are willing to pass up the added protection
in the pursuit of "Just Building it". It is all about flying sooner.
John - $00.02
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Alodine inside fuel tanks?
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
I have been warned against it. The reason was that the Alodine will
eventually come off in the tanks. The only corrosion protection you need
is the Alclad and Proseal.
I was going to Alodine my tanks until I was beaten into submission by
this A&P/RV-8 builder.
-Jim 40384
Chris Johnston wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris Johnston"
<CJohnston@popsound.com>
>
>Hey all -
>Here's a question... Are some of you out there alodining internal fuel
>tank parts? I was under the impression that that was no good.
>Thoughts?
>
>cj
>#40410
>wings
>www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Soundproofing the -10 |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Condensation is indeed the source when untreated, leading to corrosion
under thermal/acoustic batting materials. Removable Desiccant bags are
not a bad idea (inside the cockpit) for hangared aircraft in
higher/humid locales like the Wet Coast. Cameras and avionics always
get packed with it for a reason - maritime container shipments. I will
forward to Tim for the RV University site, digital pictures of just how
much condensate staining such insulation receives between C checks.
Dan Newland on the Lancair matronics list works for ORCON in the Bay
Area. They manufacture fiberglass spun, plastic bag encapsulated custom
batts for ease of installation and inspection removal. They even have a
special tape called Orcon Tape for fire suppression integrity we use on
our airliners.
He wrote an article back in about April for Sport Aviation on his
treatment of a two place plastic project for Dave Morss. He was
receptive to tackling the RV-10 if he had accurate measurements for each
of the many panels. At 500+ there is a growing market for such a
supplier. On the acoustic side, the firewall and windscreen were the
greatest culprits for noise in the cockpit.
Zetex (DuPont) is the metallic faced, thermal firewall batting used to
increase the time to land on plastic planes. Without suppression, its
all about getting on the ground. There is an associated high temp
adhesive that can be used. High Temp RTV (red) is used to provide the
fillet between batting and airframe.
Our club lost a member last week and the Take Away was "If a fire breaks
out or if the engine stops... The insurance company owns it... don't be
a fool... land and runaway to fly another day." I lost a friend in
August 2004 who was too obsessed with "The most beautiful Legacy in the
world". Fire Annunciation, Fire Suppression, Fire Off a claim letter to
your insurance carrier.
John - $00.02
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Gesele
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 8:25 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Soundproofing the -10
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tom Gesele <tgesele@optonline.net>
For those who have (or are considering) installing soundproofing under
the
front/rear floorboards, has anyone made provisions for ensuring that
moisture is not trapped between the bottom skins and the soundproofing?
Anyone have any opinions on this?
Thanks,
Tom Gesele #40473
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Alodine inside fuel tanks? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Alodine is a conversion coating .... not a paint! It doesn't come off
or flake of unless something scrapes through it. Paint primers like
zinc chromate, however, would be a no-no. Just MHO, of course.
Linn
do not archive
James Hein wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
>
> I have been warned against it. The reason was that the Alodine will
> eventually come off in the tanks. The only corrosion protection you
> need is the Alclad and Proseal.
>
> I was going to Alodine my tanks until I was beaten into submission by
> this A&P/RV-8 builder.
>
> -Jim 40384
>
> Chris Johnston wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris Johnston"
>> <CJohnston@popsound.com>
>>
>> Hey all - Here's a question... Are some of you out there alodining
>> internal fuel
>> tank parts? I was under the impression that that was no good.
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> cj
>> #40410
>> wings
>> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
>
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