---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 02/23/06: 46 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:19 AM - Re: A prophesy mis read, maybe (Tim Olson) 2. 05:33 AM - Ch 29 Construction angles (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 3. 05:52 AM - Re: Ch 29 Construction angles (Jesse Saint) 4. 06:01 AM - Re: Ch 29 Construction angles (bob.kaufmann) 5. 06:13 AM - Re: Ch 29 Construction angles (Tom Gesele) 6. 06:16 AM - Re: Static Dischargers (Conti, Rick) 7. 07:44 AM - Re: Ch 29 Construction angles (John Gonzalez) 8. 07:48 AM - Re: F6122-1 (John Hilger) 9. 08:08 AM - Re: EAA Tech Counselor visit (John Jessen) 10. 08:12 AM - New builder dumb question re Autopilot install (Jeff Dalton) 11. 08:30 AM - Re: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install (Conti, Rick) 12. 08:36 AM - Re: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install (Dan Masys) 13. 08:38 AM - Re: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install (Rick) 14. 08:44 AM - Re: Ch 29 Construction angles (Tim Olson) 15. 08:46 AM - Re: EAA Tech Counselor visit (LessDragProd@aol.com) 16. 08:47 AM - Re: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install (Lloyd, Daniel R.) 17. 08:52 AM - Re: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install (John Jessen) 18. 09:03 AM - Re: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install (Andrew Barker) 19. 09:04 AM - Re: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install (Jim Wade) 20. 09:12 AM - Re: RV10-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 02/22/06 (Hans Conser) 21. 09:15 AM - Re: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install () 22. 09:33 AM - Re: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install (Tim Olson) 23. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install (Dan Masys) 24. 11:05 AM - Re: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install (Conti, Rick) 25. 11:31 AM - Re: Re: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install (Jesse Saint) 26. 12:49 PM - Chelton Recall (LIKE2LOOP@aol.com) 27. 01:27 PM - Re: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install (Jim Wade) 28. 02:42 PM - Re: Riveting Fuse Side Skins (Richard Reynolds) 29. 03:03 PM - Re: Riveting Fuse Side Skins (McGANN, Ron) 30. 03:24 PM - Re: Ch 29 Construction angles (John W. Cox) 31. 03:29 PM - Re: Static Dischargers (John W. Cox) 32. 03:34 PM - FW: LED strobes, etc. (Robert G. Wright) 33. 03:51 PM - Re: Ch 29 Construction angles (McGANN, Ron) 34. 05:25 PM - Re: Ch 29 Construction angles (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 35. 06:07 PM - Re: FW: LED strobes, etc. (Deems Davis) 36. 07:14 PM - Rear Seats (zackrv8) 37. 07:14 PM - Re: Chelton Recall (GenGrumpy@AOL.COM) 38. 07:42 PM - Re: Rear Seats (John Dunne) 39. 07:44 PM - Re: Rear Seats (Marcus Cooper) 40. 07:47 PM - Re: Rear Seats (Russell Daves) 41. 07:56 PM - Chelton AHRS recall viewpoint (Tim Olson) 42. 08:00 PM - Re: FW: LED strobes, etc. (Tim Olson) 43. 08:03 PM - Re: Chelton Recall (Tim Olson) 44. 08:31 PM - Re: FW: LED strobes, etc. (Deems Davis) 45. 08:35 PM - Re: FW: LED strobes, etc. (John Dunne) 46. 09:11 PM - Re: FW: LED strobes, etc. remaned fiberglass panel (Deems Davis) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:19:50 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: A prophesy mis read, maybe --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson John, "DNA" won't do the same as "do not archive". Tim John Gonzalez wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" > > Thanks for all the suggestions on the glide slope issue. > > Also, I absolutely loved the Yoda quote. Anyone who recites Star Wars > dialog is a okay by me!!!! > > Unfortunately, we, like the Jedi, are a dying breed. > > Did Obi Wan ever tell you what happened to you father...?No Luke, I am > your father. > > Building break...Time to break out the Trilogy again, oh and the most > recent one I, IV, V and VI. > > DNA > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:35 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" What angle did everyone use to create the F1070A/B construction angles for bending the fuse skin? I don't see a callout for the actual angle size other than 3/4 and I don't want to chop a piece that will be needed later. This has been one of the little annoyances as they don't really tell you which length angle to chop up to make various parts. I guess they just assume that you will use which every piece that will cause the least waste but I'm sure that someone has chopped the wrong angle before. It wouldn't be difficult to comment what length they expect you to use. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Fuselage Do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:05 AM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles If I am not wrong there is an extra piece of 125 angle that is used for this. I think there are 3 6' pieces included in the kit and only 2 are needed for the plane, so the other 6' piece we cut to make these parts. What is everybody doing with their scrap parts like this? I don't know how much that angle stock costs, but passing around an already used set of these angles would save a lot of builders a 6' piece for repairs or mods. Do not archive Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org Fax: 815-377-3694 I am in Ecuador until May, 2006. If you have questions regarding I-TEC, please call the office at 352-465-4545. If you would like to talk to me, please call me at 352-505-1899. This number won't always be on, but it has voicemail that will get to me in Ecuador. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:26 AM Subject: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles What angle did everyone use to create the F1070A/B construction angles for bending the fuse skin? I don't see a callout for the actual angle size other than 3/4 and I don't want to chop a piece that will be needed later. This has been one of the little annoyances as they don't really tell you which length angle to chop up to make various parts. I guess they just assume that you will use which every piece that will cause the least waste but I'm sure that someone has chopped the wrong angle before. It wouldn't be difficult to comment what length they expect you to use. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Fuselage Do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:23 AM PST US From: "bob.kaufmann" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles The Las Vegas group has been passing tools and parts like this the whole time. We passed the wood block, the angles and the bucking bars as needed. Nice part is that the holes are already predrilled. God is good. Bob K 40125 N104BK Baggage door Do not archive, _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:51 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles If I am not wrong there is an extra piece of 125 angle that is used for this. I think there are 3 6' pieces included in the kit and only 2 are needed for the plane, so the other 6' piece we cut to make these parts. What is everybody doing with their scrap parts like this? I don't know how much that angle stock costs, but passing around an already used set of these angles would save a lot of builders a 6' piece for repairs or mods. Do not archive Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org Fax: 815-377-3694 I am in Ecuador until May, 2006. If you have questions regarding I-TEC, please call the office at 352-465-4545. If you would like to talk to me, please call me at 352-505-1899. This number won't always be on, but it has voicemail that will get to me in Ecuador. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:26 AM Subject: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles What angle did everyone use to create the F1070A/B construction angles for bending the fuse skin? I don't see a callout for the actual angle size other than 3/4 and I don't want to chop a piece that will be needed later. This has been one of the little annoyances as they don't really tell you which length angle to chop up to make various parts. I guess they just assume that you will use which every piece that will cause the least waste but I'm sure that someone has chopped the wrong angle before. It wouldn't be difficult to comment what length they expect you to use. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Fuselage Do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:47 AM PST US From: Tom Gesele Subject: RE: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles Mike, I purchased 2 3' sections of 3/4x3/4x1/8 angle from Home Depot. Like you, didn't want to chop up the wrong angle and find I'm short later on. One word of caution on the bends - be careful that you don't use too much force while forming the sharp bend on the opposite side of the cone, you can end up with a small crease in the skin (guess how I know that..) Good luck with those bends. Tom Gesele #473 Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:26 AM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles What angle did everyone use to create the F1070A/B construction angles for bending the fuse skin? I don't see a callout for the actual angle size other than 3/4 and I don't want to chop a piece that will be needed later. This has been one of the little annoyances as they don't really tell you which length angle to chop up to make various parts. I guess they just assume that you will use which every piece that will cause the least waste but I'm sure that someone has chopped the wrong angle before. It wouldn't be difficult to comment what length they expect you to use. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Fuselage Do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:50 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Static Dischargers From: "Conti, Rick" What's the consensus for the builders? Static wicks or not? Can they be added relatively easy later on? I have been told the F-16 uses a conductive adhesive. Do Not Archive Thank You Rick Conti office: 703-414-6141 cell: 571-215-6134 ________________________________ From: Bill and Tami Britton [mailto:william@gbta.net] Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 9:57 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Static Dischargers I'm incorporating them on my -10 only because the original builder started with them. I've got one on the top of the rudder, one towards the outboard tip of each elevator and probably a couple per aileron. Not sure if the flaps will have any yet or not. The wicks I have are easily removeable with just 2 small bolts so I'll probably leave them off most of the time so as to save my eyes a few pokings. Also, don't forget that you should probably use bonding straps on your hinges also. Bill Britton RV-10 Tailcone #40137 ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Pulis To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 5:03 PM Subject: RV10-List: Static Dischargers G'day mates from sunny Australia, This is my first week on the list and my first post and I've read and learnt a lot awaits me as I progress from my empennage kit. I have been reading about static discharger wick installations on other RV models and as yet have found no information or references regrading the installation of discharger wicks on 10's. Is there anyone out there who has or plans to install discharger static wicks on their 10 please, I'd love to hear from you and your thoughts/plans. Regards PATRICK PULIS Builder #40299 Adelaide, South Australia ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:31 AM PST US From: "John Gonzalez" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" The cost of this material through AS&S is about 0.80 a foot. Of course there is the shipping charge. I am not sure that the Home Depot material is made of the same aluminum. I think the kit material is 6061 and notice that the inner curve has a nice radius which imparts greater strength at this junction. Food for thought. JG. Do Not Archive >From: Tom Gesele >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles >Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:16:56 -0500 > >Mike, > > I purchased 2 3' sections of 3/4x3/4x1/8 angle from Home Depot. Like >you, >didn't want to chop up the wrong angle and find I'm short later on. > > One word of caution on the bends - be careful that you don't use too >much >force while forming the sharp bend on the opposite side of the cone, you >can >end up with a small crease in the skin (guess how I know that..) > >Good luck with those bends. > > Tom Gesele #473 > >Do Not Archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV Builder >(Michael Sausen) > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:26 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles > > > What angle did everyone use to create the F1070A/B construction angles >for bending the fuse skin? I don't see a callout for the actual angle size >other than 3/4 and I don't want to chop a piece that will be needed later. > > This has been one of the little annoyances as they don't really tell >you >which length angle to chop up to make various parts. I guess they just >assume that you will use which every piece that will cause the least waste >but I'm sure that someone has chopped the wrong angle before. It wouldn't >be difficult to comment what length they expect you to use. > > > Michael Sausen > -10 #352 Fuselage > Do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:53 AM PST US From: "John Hilger" Subject: Re: RV10-List: F6122-1 John The F-6122-1 is in sub kit #7 of the fuselage kit. John #40359 ----- Original Message ----- From: John Dunne To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:10 PM Subject: RV10-List: F6122-1 Does anybody know what bag or kit the F6122-1 Tri-Gear Brake bracket appears in? I can't seem to even find it on the parts list. Reference firewall section 27 page 27-1 John #40315 fuse Do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:20 AM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: EAA Tech Counselor visit Jeff, just a few thoughts from a non-Tech Counselor. My tech counselor did what I had hoped he'd do, but at first I didn't know what I wanted him to do. He first took a look at my basic techniques and found areas that were wanting. Consistent rivets was one such area, and probably is for every newbie. He got some scrap and gave me a lesson, which I first I sort of didn't like. I knew about the bad rivets, and I even had told him that I knew they were bad, and I'd had already taken the EAA course in RV building. However, he said something interesting as he began the demo. He said, and I paraphrase, "It took me a long time before I was able to be consistent in my approach to riveting and therefore in getting consistently good rivets, and my method may not be what you end up doing, but I found that...." Then he popped off some perfectly good rivets. I tried and got good rivets. He then did a blasphemous thing! He drilled out my bad rivets! He didn't even ask me if I wanted to keep them in! The nerve. Actually, I had not wanted to drill them out because, I must admit, I was worried that I'd make things worse. He showed me that it was easy, quick and the right thing to do. He drilled out a few and then I tried. We then looked at my edge deburring. He thought it was acceptable, but then he showed me how he did his, and explained his rationale for the steps. His technique produced better edges. We also discussed priming, preparation for priming, tools that would be helpful, and so on. I ended up going from defensive to grateful for all the time and effort he put into the visit. He and his wife (she had come along and was doing work over on the couch that I have in the hanger) then got back into his beautiful RV-6A (he's currently building a 10) on a gorgeous day that they could have been somewhere else, and flew off. I am a much better builder for that visit, and highly recommend finding the most anal of all tech counselors you can, because these are the folks who will show you the small details that make everything so much better and faster and more consistent. You may never be as detailed, but at least you'll know how it can be done. John Jessen ~328 (Tailcone and almost ready to go prime time with the web site) _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Cooper Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:01 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: EAA Tech Counselor visit Jeff, Having been a Tech counselor, I'll offer some thoughts. First, it sounds like you have a strong player, but realize the only requirement to become a Tech Counselor is to have built an airplane and send in the paperwork so there are no guarantees about the skill of who you are getting. Second, time is a valuable commodity so I'd suggest making the most out of his/her time and not expect more than they are willing to give. Having said that, I suspect most counselors enjoy looking at other projects and the time spent doing so or they shouldn't have signed up to be one. As for how to utilize them, I'd suggest steering them toward any areas you have concerns over. Then just cut them loose to wander about the project primarily as a second set of eyes to catch things you are too familiar with to notice are wrong. They also tend to have experience with other types of projects and can offer unique insight to particular problems or catch something that doesn't quite make sense. I have never heard of a bad experience with a Tech Counselor so I recommend you continue the visits if possible. I'd take lots of notes and then decide what items need to be tweaked as it's your machine and nothing he says is mandatory. Marcus 40286 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Dalton Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 9:15 PM Subject: RV10-List: EAA Tech Counselor visit I just had my first EAA Tech counselor visit. There's a guy in our local EAA chapter that helps a lot of people out in the area - he really seemed to know his stuff. Question for the group - what kinds of experiences did you all have with tech counselors and how would you recommend best working with them to get the most out of it? ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:42 AM PST US From: "Jeff Dalton" Subject: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install I'm just starting the tail kit (finished rudder, VS, starting on HS) and I am a long way from many final decisions on some equipment. However, it occurred to me that if I do end up with an Autopilot I need to make that decision now. Don't servos need to be installed in the tail to control pitch? Do I need to decide on Autopilot manufacturer now or can I install generic components? Jeff http://www.mykitlog.com/users/index.php?user=3Djrdalton&project=3D120 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:51 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install From: "Conti, Rick" Jeff, trust me, don't go any further until you have the complete plan in place. I didn't but really wish I had. Especially true to ensure all the wires are in place. DO NOT ARCHIVE Thank You Rick Conti office: 703-414-6141 cell: 571-215-6134 ________________________________ From: Jeff Dalton [mailto:jdalton77@comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:12 AM Subject: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install I'm just starting the tail kit (finished rudder, VS, starting on HS) and I am a long way from many final decisions on some equipment. However, it occurred to me that if I do end up with an Autopilot I need to make that decision now. Don't servos need to be installed in the tail to control pitch? Do I need to decide on Autopilot manufacturer now or can I install generic components? Jeff http://www.mykitlog.com/users/index.php?user=3Djrdalton&project=3D120 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:15 AM PST US From: Dan Masys Subject: Re: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys Quite a good question, Jeff. With an easy answer. The pitch servo mounts at the bellcrank which is just behind the baggage bulkhead, not way back in the tail. So it is very accessible for installation and maintenance later. The plate that holds the bellcrank is held in by machine screws so you can just unscrew it to drill and mount the servo. The story on the roll servo in the wing is similar. It bolts using a bracket that is accessible via one of the inspection plates, and can be installed later. The only trick that requires some advance planning is getting the wiring into the wing before the bottom skin goes on. It helps to make the decision about the autopilot early (and most other things in the project, really, except perhaps panel avionics which keep changing from month to month.) -Dan Masys #40448 > From: "Jeff Dalton" > Date: 2006/02/23 Thu AM 11:11:47 EST > To: > Subject: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install > > I'm just starting the tail kit (finished rudder, VS, starting on HS) and I am a long way from many final decisions on some equipment. However, it occurred to me that if I do end up with an Autopilot I need to make that decision now. Don't servos need to be installed in the tail to control pitch? > > Do I need to decide on Autopilot manufacturer now or can I install generic components? > > Jeff > http://www.mykitlog.com/users/index.php?user=jrdalton&project=120 > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:20 AM PST US From: Rick Subject: Re: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:46 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I would caution builders...I know that at least where I can buy aluminum from locally at hardware stores, there isn't anything that's the same type and quality as what you can get from Van's or ACS. I did buy a bit early on to try to make a bracket for something, but it was much more brittle and less strong. Also, the hardware store angle didn't have the fillet between the edges, it was a square inside corner. I know this won't be as strong as one with the fillet. I resigned myself to using it for vice jaws protectors and to make jigs with for things. Then, I just remembered to order a few 6' lengths of various aluminum angle from Van's. Every builder should consider at least buying extra lengths of 3/4"x3/4"x.063 and 3/4x3/4x.125", and I'd include 1" widths and a short piece of 1x2 also. You'll find lots of use for it as time goes on. Tim Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive John Gonzalez wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" > > The cost of this material through AS&S is about 0.80 a foot. Of course > there is the shipping charge. I am not sure that the Home Depot > material is made of the same aluminum. I think the kit material is 6061 > and notice that the inner curve has a nice radius which imparts greater > strength at this junction. > > Food for thought. > > JG. > > Do Not Archive > > >> From: Tom Gesele >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles >> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:16:56 -0500 >> >> Mike, >> >> I purchased 2 3' sections of 3/4x3/4x1/8 angle from Home Depot. Like >> you, >> didn't want to chop up the wrong angle and find I'm short later on. >> >> One word of caution on the bends - be careful that you don't use too >> much >> force while forming the sharp bend on the opposite side of the cone, >> you can >> end up with a small crease in the skin (guess how I know that..) >> >> Good luck with those bends. >> >> Tom Gesele #473 >> >> Do Not Archive >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV Builder >> (Michael Sausen) >> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:26 AM >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles >> >> >> What angle did everyone use to create the F1070A/B construction >> angles >> for bending the fuse skin? I don't see a callout for the actual angle >> size >> other than 3/4 and I don't want to chop a piece that will be needed >> later. >> >> This has been one of the little annoyances as they don't really >> tell you >> which length angle to chop up to make various parts. I guess they just >> assume that you will use which every piece that will cause the least >> waste >> but I'm sure that someone has chopped the wrong angle before. It >> wouldn't >> be difficult to comment what length they expect you to use. >> >> >> Michael Sausen >> -10 #352 Fuselage >> Do not archive > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:27 AM PST US From: LessDragProd@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: EAA Tech Counselor visit A friend decided recently to build a RV-4. I had a completed RV-4 vertical stabilizer setting around (don't know from where) which I gave him. The rudder attach brackets had been drilled off. His first task was to drill out the rivets holding in the rear spar so new rudder attach brackets could be installed. Obviously, this wasn't much of a gift. He started on the rudder, recently. When a rivet didn't set properly, he just drilled it out and installed a new rivet. He didn't give it a second thought. >From an A&P friend, I learned to just start to drill the rivet. Then check to see that the drill point was centered. If it wasn't, cock the drill sideways, and walk the drill point to the center. For skin and rib assemblies, just drill through the head of the rivet, but not through the body. Then, with a pair of pliers, pull the rivet tail out from the back side. Jim Ayers EAA Tech Councilor ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:16 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." You can make all of these decision later in the project, you do not need to install the pitch servo yet, and the can do the roll servo from the inspection plate or before you put on the bottom skins. Rather than buy the servos, put the money into the airframe kits and pound away on the rivets and wait for the panel to make the AP decision. my .02 Dan 40269 Do not archive _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Dalton Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:12 AM Subject: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install I'm just starting the tail kit (finished rudder, VS, starting on HS) and I am a long way from many final decisions on some equipment. However, it occurred to me that if I do end up with an Autopilot I need to make that decision now. Don't servos need to be installed in the tail to control pitch? Do I need to decide on Autopilot manufacturer now or can I install generic components? Jeff http://www.mykitlog.com/users/index.php?user=3Djrdalton&project=3D120 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:30 AM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" What else are guys/gals doing with the tail, though, that might need wiring? Is it easier to put in some wires for now, before closing up the Cone, or does it really matter? Clearly there are wires for the tail light. Might be something for comm. ant. or ELT? John Jessen ~328 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Masys Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys Quite a good question, Jeff. With an easy answer. The pitch servo mounts at the bellcrank which is just behind the baggage bulkhead, not way back in the tail. So it is very accessible for installation and maintenance later. The plate that holds the bellcrank is held in by machine screws so you can just unscrew it to drill and mount the servo. The story on the roll servo in the wing is similar. It bolts using a bracket that is accessible via one of the inspection plates, and can be installed later. The only trick that requires some advance planning is getting the wiring into the wing before the bottom skin goes on. It helps to make the decision about the autopilot early (and most other things in the project, really, except perhaps panel avionics which keep changing from month to month.) -Dan Masys #40448 > From: "Jeff Dalton" > Date: 2006/02/23 Thu AM 11:11:47 EST > To: > Subject: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install > > I'm just starting the tail kit (finished rudder, VS, starting on HS) and I am a long way from many final decisions on some equipment. However, it occurred to me that if I do end up with an Autopilot I need to make that decision now. Don't servos need to be installed in the tail to control pitch? > > Do I need to decide on Autopilot manufacturer now or can I install generic components? > > Jeff > http://www.mykitlog.com/users/index.php?user=jrdalton&project=120 > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:19 AM PST US From: "Andrew Barker" Subject: RE: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install The PERFECT answer! My $0.02 as well. Andrew Barker General Manager TruTrak Flight Systems "You build it...We fly it!" PH: 479-751-0250 Ext.222 www.trutrakap.com _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R. Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 10:47 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install You can make all of these decision later in the project, you do not need to install the pitch servo yet, and the can do the roll servo from the inspection plate or before you put on the bottom skins. Rather than buy the servos, put the money into the airframe kits and pound away on the rivets and wait for the panel to make the AP decision. my .02 Dan 40269 Do not archive _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Dalton Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:12 AM Subject: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install I'm just starting the tail kit (finished rudder, VS, starting on HS) and I am a long way from many final decisions on some equipment. However, it occurred to me that if I do end up with an Autopilot I need to make that decision now. Don't servos need to be installed in the tail to control pitch? Do I need to decide on Autopilot manufacturer now or can I install generic components? Jeff http://www.mykitlog.com/users/index.php?user=jrdalton &project=120 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:43 AM PST US From: Jim Wade Subject: Re: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install I built mine and mounted after cabin was on. I am installing Blue Mountain. Built mount for aileron and elevator. Installed aileron mount just before closing bottom skin. Jim 40383 -------Original Message------- From: Rick Subject: Re: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install John, The servo mounts at the battery tray in the tail cone and is a bolt on unit. You can wait till your ready to attach the taicone if you like but that's still a ways off and access to that area is fairly easy even with the cone attached.. The roll servo is very easy and can wait till your ready to do the bottom skins even after for that matter. The only thing on the roll servo is the bellcrank bracket is swapped out with one from Trutrak...of course I am assuming your going Trutrack. I only have experience with that manufac. Another system may be different. Rick S. 40185 Fuselage ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:51 AM PST US From: Hans Conser Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV10-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 02/22/06 --> RV10-List message posted by: Hans Conser > Time: 08:34:00 AM PST US > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Installing aux fuel tank > From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." > > Before this goes off the deep end, it is not about support. I happen to > agree with Tim, the question does not need to be there, but if do not > archive appears anywhere in the email stream then the message does not > get in there, and my point was that it might be worth an extra 11 > thousand 1's and 0's to be stored if the responder clicks on the wrong > message and does not get in there. But by posting do not archive after > wards and not in the original message then not only are we wasting the > storage space of the original message, but also valuable bandwidth at > each of the 1000's of ISP's that we all belong to, to just see a > message > that says do not archive. There is a monthly reminder that is sent out > to each of us with the rules and guidelines, and too waste additional > bandwidth sending an email saying do not archive after the archive has > already taken place is pointless. So with that being said if we all > looked at the rules, then this would be a non issue, > In this particular case I do believe that the question itself should > not > be in the archive, but the answer needs to be, and that is all I was > referring too. > Dan > Do not archive > Do not archive because it is just the ramblings of a builder in > withdrawal during the work day > Do you really think this makes sense? I have read this three times and I have no idea of what you are trying to say. Hans ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:43 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install --> RV10-List message posted by: Jeff, Vans incuded a bracket with the Fuselage Kit to mount the tru-track servo. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:46 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Jim, TruTrak has an updated bracket. There's also an updated roll mod that builders may want to check out. All of it can be done easily post-build if you've done the initial install well with proper measurements on your holes drilled. Tim Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive jim@combsfive.com wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: > > Jeff, > > Vans incuded a bracket with the Fuselage Kit to mount the tru-track servo. > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:01 AM PST US From: Dan Masys Subject: Re: RE: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > From: "John Jessen" > Date: 2006/02/23 Thu AM 08:51:57 PST > What else are guys/gals doing with the tail, though, that might need wiring? > Is it easier to put in some wires for now, before closing up the Cone, or > does it really matter? Clearly there are wires for the tail light. Might be something for comm. ant. or ELT? The only wires that run back there on my -7A are the tail strobe + nav light, the elevator trim wires, and the ELT antenna coax cable. ELT antenna is mounted horizontally under the empennage fairing. All of those wire runs can be routed without much trouble after the tailcone is completed. -Dan Masys > John Jessen > ~328 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Masys > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:27 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > > Quite a good question, Jeff. With an easy answer. The pitch servo mounts > at the bellcrank which is just behind the baggage bulkhead, not way back in > the tail. So it is very accessible for installation and maintenance later. > The plate that holds the bellcrank is held in by machine screws so you can > just unscrew it to drill and mount the servo. > > The story on the roll servo in the wing is similar. It bolts using a bracket > that is accessible via one of the inspection plates, and can be installed > later. The only trick that requires some advance planning is getting the > wiring into the wing before the bottom skin goes on. > > It helps to make the decision about the autopilot early (and most other > things in the project, really, except perhaps panel avionics which keep > changing from month to month.) > > -Dan Masys > #40448 > > > From: "Jeff Dalton" > > Date: 2006/02/23 Thu AM 11:11:47 EST > > To: > > Subject: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install > > > > I'm just starting the tail kit (finished rudder, VS, starting on HS) and I > am a long way from many final decisions on some equipment. However, it > occurred to me that if I do end up with an Autopilot I need to make that > decision now. Don't servos need to be installed in the tail to control > pitch? > > > > Do I need to decide on Autopilot manufacturer now or can I install generic > components? > > > > Jeff > > http://www.mykitlog.com/users/index.php?user=jrdalton&project=120 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:03 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install From: "Conti, Rick" Jim, Where did you install your aileron mount? Thank You Rick Conti office: 703-414-6141 cell: 571-215-6134 ________________________________ From: Jim Wade [mailto:jwadejr@direcway.com] Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 12:04 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install I built mine and mounted after cabin was on. I am installing Blue Mountain. Built mount for aileron and elevator. Installed aileron mount just before closing bottom skin. Jim 40383 -------Original Message------- From: Rick Subject: Re: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install John, The servo mounts at the battery tray in the tail cone and is a bolt on unit. You can wait till your ready to attach the taicone if you like but that's still a ways off and access to that area is fairly easy even with the cone attached.. The roll servo is very easy and can wait till your ready to do the bottom skins even after for that matter. The only thing on the roll servo is the bellcrank bracket is swapped out with one from Trutrak...of course I am assuming your going Trutrack. I only have experience with that manufac. Another system may be different. Rick S. 40185 Fuselage ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:15 AM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RE: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" We had the plane painted and completely assembled before we put a single wire or servo in it. While I realize some would have been easier earlier, it is possible to do it later, as long as you have access to where the wires will run. Also, I agree that the tail is quite simple, although finding a good place to route the wires into the rudder isn't a lot of fun. We have the whole ELT under the emp fairing with the antenna right there, so the control wires are run from there to the panel, but there's just that and the strobe and nav light wires for back there. I don't know anything about the new servo brackets or setup for the TruTrak, but we are using the ones that came with the kit and the AP is working just fine. Like others have said, if you want to do it now, go ahead, but don't sweat it. It wouldn't hurt to decide where you are going to put antennas and things like that, but we installed all of those after the plane was completed, so it is possible to do that later also. The main thing is not to cut off your wiring access areas, unless you put conduit there, and plenty of it. Do not archive Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org Fax: 815-377-3694 I am in Ecuador until May, 2006. If you have questions regarding I-TEC, please call the office at 352-465-4545. If you would like to talk to me, please call me at 352-505-1899. This number won't always be on, but it has voicemail that will get to me in Ecuador. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Masys Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 12:40 PM Subject: Re: RE: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > From: "John Jessen" > Date: 2006/02/23 Thu AM 08:51:57 PST > What else are guys/gals doing with the tail, though, that might need wiring? > Is it easier to put in some wires for now, before closing up the Cone, or > does it really matter? Clearly there are wires for the tail light. Might be something for comm. ant. or ELT? The only wires that run back there on my -7A are the tail strobe + nav light, the elevator trim wires, and the ELT antenna coax cable. ELT antenna is mounted horizontally under the empennage fairing. All of those wire runs can be routed without much trouble after the tailcone is completed. -Dan Masys > John Jessen > ~328 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Masys > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:27 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > > Quite a good question, Jeff. With an easy answer. The pitch servo mounts > at the bellcrank which is just behind the baggage bulkhead, not way back in > the tail. So it is very accessible for installation and maintenance later. > The plate that holds the bellcrank is held in by machine screws so you can > just unscrew it to drill and mount the servo. > > The story on the roll servo in the wing is similar. It bolts using a bracket > that is accessible via one of the inspection plates, and can be installed > later. The only trick that requires some advance planning is getting the > wiring into the wing before the bottom skin goes on. > > It helps to make the decision about the autopilot early (and most other > things in the project, really, except perhaps panel avionics which keep > changing from month to month.) > > -Dan Masys > #40448 > > > From: "Jeff Dalton" > > Date: 2006/02/23 Thu AM 11:11:47 EST > > To: > > Subject: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install > > > > I'm just starting the tail kit (finished rudder, VS, starting on HS) and I > am a long way from many final decisions on some equipment. However, it > occurred to me that if I do end up with an Autopilot I need to make that > decision now. Don't servos need to be installed in the tail to control > pitch? > > > > Do I need to decide on Autopilot manufacturer now or can I install generic > components? > > > > Jeff > > http://www.mykitlog.com/users/index.php?user=jrdalton&project=120 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:37 PM PST US From: LIKE2LOOP@aol.com Subject: RV10-List: Chelton Recall I just read this on AvWeb, not sure if it applies to any of the end stage builder or flyers....Steve D2A RECALLS CHELTON EFIS COMPONENT Direct-To Avionics (D2A) announced Tuesday a full recall of the Crossbow 425EX AHRS used in experimental Chelton Electronic Flight Instrumentation Systems (EFIS), saying the AHRS has been "plagued by performance and reliability problems" and will not be used in future units. The component will be replaced by the Pinpoint Inertial GADAHRS (GPS / Air Data / Attitude and Heading Reference System), which D2A said has proven to exceed all of its performance and reliability parameters. D2A is the exclusive distributor of Chelton's experimental EFIS line, and also participates in the development and evaluation of future Chelton systems for both certified and experimental aircraft. More... DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:22 PM PST US From: Jim Wade Subject: RE: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install Right wing in the bay the aileron push rod ends. Here's a pic of the mount I built. It rivets right to the ribs. -------Original Message------- From: Conti, Rick Subject: RE: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install Jim, Where did you install your aileron mount? Thank You Rick Conti office: 703-414-6141 cell: 571-215-6134 From: Jim Wade [mailto:jwadejr@direcway.com] Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 12:04 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install I built mine and mounted after cabin was on. I am installing Blue Mountain. Built mount for aileron and elevator. Installed aileron mount just before closing bottom skin. Jim 40383 -------Original Message------- From: Rick Subject: Re: RV10-List: New builder dumb question re Autopilot install John, The servo mounts at the battery tray in the tail cone and is a bolt on unit. You can wait till your ready to attach the taicone if you like but that's still a ways off and access to that area is fairly easy even with the cone attached.. The roll servo is very easy and can wait till your ready to do the bottom skins even after for that matter. The only thing on the roll servo is the bellcrank bracket is swapped out with one from Trutrak...of course I am assuming your going Trutrack. I only have experience with that manufac. Another system may be different. Rick S. 40185 Fuselage ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:44 PM PST US From: Richard Reynolds Subject: Re: RV10-List: Riveting Fuse Side Skins We hung ours vertical resting against 2 2X4 at a height that allowed easy access. Did the same for the tail cone. Richard Reynolds Norfolk, VA On Feb 22, 2006, at 5:58 PM, McGANN, Ron wrote: > G'day all, > > I'm about to start riveting the fuse side skins. Has anyone had > any success backriveting these skins? If so, what is the trick for > preventing damage to the ribs/floor panels while climbing around > inside? > > If your are near this point, have a look at Rick Sked's fuse stand > in Tim Olsons page under fuselage tips. Looks neat, easy to build > and versatile. I had not noticed it before. I guess the only down > side is the height is fixed. > > thanks in advance, > Ron > #187 fuse > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:28 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Riveting Fuse Side Skins From: "McGANN, Ron" Hi Richard, I'm intrigued. Can you shed some more light (a picture would be awesome)? Did you suspend the fuse from the ceiling/rafter? If so, did you suspend from the centre section spars? thanks Ron -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard Reynolds Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 9:12 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Riveting Fuse Side Skins We hung ours vertical resting against 2 2X4 at a height that allowed easy access. Did the same for the tail cone. Richard Reynolds Norfolk, VA On Feb 22, 2006, at 5:58 PM, McGANN, Ron wrote: G'day all, I'm about to start riveting the fuse side skins. Has anyone had any success backriveting these skins? If so, what is the trick for preventing damage to the ribs/floor panels while climbing around inside? If your are near this point, have a look at Rick Sked's fuse stand in Tim Olsons page under fuselage tips. Looks neat, easy to build and versatile. I had not noticed it before. I guess the only down side is the height is fixed. thanks in advance, Ron #187 fuse ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:17 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles From: "John W. Cox" Tom, I bought a bunch of aluminum from the Aviation Department of HD to weld an angle bracket style dolly for my aviation tool chest. While TIG welding, we got lots of out-gassing, foreign deposits and a really poor final weld. Some pieces were marginally Okay others were S#%T. Turns out there are lots of impurities with the scrap products. I recommend you purchase only aviation grade aluminum stock from a reputable supplier, if it is going into an aircraft. John $00.02 Do Not Archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Gesele Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 6:17 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles Mike, I purchased 2 3' sections of 3/4x3/4x1/8 angle from Home Depot. Like you, didn't want to chop up the wrong angle and find I'm short later on. One word of caution on the bends - be careful that you don't use too much force while forming the sharp bend on the opposite side of the cone, you can end up with a small crease in the skin (guess how I know that..) Good luck with those bends. Tom Gesele #473 Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:26 AM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles What angle did everyone use to create the F1070A/B construction angles for bending the fuse skin? I don't see a callout for the actual angle size other than 3/4 and I don't want to chop a piece that will be needed later. This has been one of the little annoyances as they don't really tell you which length angle to chop up to make various parts. I guess they just assume that you will use which every piece that will cause the least waste but I'm sure that someone has chopped the wrong angle before. It wouldn't be difficult to comment what length they expect you to use. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Fuselage Do not archive ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:52 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Static Dischargers From: "John W. Cox" Conductive paints help a lot on composite skins like radomes and leading edge wing surfaces. With metal aircraft the dissipation is best done with wicks. Will be using them on trailing edges. YES, and they will be removable for static display at Airshows. John $00.02 Do Not Archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Conti, Rick Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 6:16 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Static Dischargers What's the consensus for the builders? Static wicks or not? Can they be added relatively easy later on? I have been told the F-16 uses a conductive adhesive. Do Not Archive Thank You Rick Conti office: 703-414-6141 cell: 571-215-6134 ________________________________ From: Bill and Tami Britton [mailto:william@gbta.net] Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 9:57 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Static Dischargers I'm incorporating them on my -10 only because the original builder started with them. I've got one on the top of the rudder, one towards the outboard tip of each elevator and probably a couple per aileron. Not sure if the flaps will have any yet or not. The wicks I have are easily removeable with just 2 small bolts so I'll probably leave them off most of the time so as to save my eyes a few pokings. Also, don't forget that you should probably use bonding straps on your hinges also. Bill Britton RV-10 Tailcone #40137 ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Pulis To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 5:03 PM Subject: RV10-List: Static Dischargers G'day mates from sunny Australia, This is my first week on the list and my first post and I've read and learnt a lot awaits me as I progress from my empennage kit. I have been reading about static discharger wick installations on other RV models and as yet have found no information or references regrading the installation of discharger wicks on 10's. Is there anyone out there who has or plans to install discharger static wicks on their 10 please, I'd love to hear from you and your thoughts/plans. Regards PATRICK PULIS Builder #40299 Adelaide, South Australia ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:35 PM PST US From: "Robert G. Wright" Subject: RV10-List: FW: LED strobes, etc. All, I'm not looking to wire together my own nav lights that include the strobe tube, so I asked Eric at Perihelion: Rob, (Sorry for the late reply). I am planning a combo this Spring. No firm delivery date yet. Regards, Eric M. Jones emjones@charter.net www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 (508) 764-2072 Eric, I still check the sites consistently looking for anyone who will put together a combo tail light/strobe for use specifically in the RV-10 as a direct replacement for the System 6 Vans sells from Whelen. I really don't want to have LED side posn lights and a filament tail light. I'm not in a hurry but will probably buy the first set I see. Would like that to be you as you support the matronics lists, AeroLectric readers, etc. Rob Wright ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:16 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles From: "McGANN, Ron" I also bought some 3/4x3/4x1/8 from the hardware store. Not a problem since they are not installed on the aircraft. I did find that I bent the heck out of them with the vise grips. The hardware store stuff seems to be much softer than the aircraft grade material, and after forming both skins, these items were throw away. It was a cheap solution, and did the job well. Another word of caution - when completing the tight radii, don't over strike with the mallet, you will crack the skins. cheers, Ron -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tom Gesele Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 12:47 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles Mike, I purchased 2 3' sections of 3/4x3/4x1/8 angle from Home Depot. Like you, didn't want to chop up the wrong angle and find I'm short later on. One word of caution on the bends - be careful that you don't use too much force while forming the sharp bend on the opposite side of the cone, you can end up with a small crease in the skin (guess how I know that..) Good luck with those bends. Tom Gesele #473 Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:26 AM Subject: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles What angle did everyone use to create the F1070A/B construction angles for bending the fuse skin? I don't see a callout for the actual angle size other than 3/4 and I don't want to chop a piece that will be needed later. This has been one of the little annoyances as they don't really tell you which length angle to chop up to make various parts. I guess they just assume that you will use which every piece that will cause the least waste but I'm sure that someone has chopped the wrong angle before. It wouldn't be difficult to comment what length they expect you to use. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Fuselage Do not archive ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:40 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Completely agree. I have used some HD stuff before for non-aircraft use and it's crap. Probably only T3. I have tried to find someplace in DFW area that carries aluminum stock with no luck. Must be someplace, just can't find it. For anyone else that has to replace aluminum parts, and doesn't want to wait for Van's speedy shipping dept, I highly recommend Airparts. I have used them a couple times to replace angle, and for sheet for my hat shelf, and they are always speedy. I just ordered some oversized stuff on Monday and it was on my door today. You can also use Aircraft Spruce but they are a bit on and off with shipping speeds. www.airpartsinc.com Michael Sausen -10 #352 Fuselage ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:24 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles Tom, I bought a bunch of aluminum from the Aviation Department of HD to weld an angle bracket style dolly for my aviation tool chest. While TIG welding, we got lots of out-gassing, foreign deposits and a really poor final weld. Some pieces were marginally Okay others were S#%T. Turns out there are lots of impurities with the scrap products. I recommend you purchase only aviation grade aluminum stock from a reputable supplier, if it is going into an aircraft. John $00.02 Do Not Archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Gesele Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 6:17 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles Mike, I purchased 2 3' sections of 3/4x3/4x1/8 angle from Home Depot. Like you, didn't want to chop up the wrong angle and find I'm short later on. One word of caution on the bends - be careful that you don't use too much force while forming the sharp bend on the opposite side of the cone, you can end up with a small crease in the skin (guess how I know that..) Good luck with those bends. Tom Gesele #473 Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:26 AM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: Ch 29 Construction angles What angle did everyone use to create the F1070A/B construction angles for bending the fuse skin? I don't see a callout for the actual angle size other than 3/4 and I don't want to chop a piece that will be needed later. This has been one of the little annoyances as they don't really tell you which length angle to chop up to make various parts. I guess they just assume that you will use which every piece that will cause the least waste but I'm sure that someone has chopped the wrong angle before. It wouldn't be difficult to comment what length they expect you to use. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Fuselage Do not archive ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:40 PM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: Re: RV10-List: FW: LED strobes, etc. --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis I just installed these. http://deemsrv10.com/decisions.html (scroll down to the write up on the LED Nav & Strobes) I found them on Vans Air Force site, and RV 7 builder made them, the links are in the write-up if anybody's interested. Deems Davis # 406 Fuse http://deemsrv10.com/ Robert G. Wright wrote: > All, Im not looking to wire together my own nav lights that include > the strobe tube, so I asked Eric at Perihelion: > > Rob, > > (Sorry for the late reply). > > I am planning a combo this Spring. No firm delivery date yet. > > Regards, > Eric M. Jones > emjones@charter.net > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge MA 01550-2705 > (508) 764-2072 > > Eric, > > I still check the sites consistently looking for anyone who will > put together a combo tail light/strobe for use specifically in the > RV-10 as a direct replacement for the System 6 Vans sells from > Whelen. I really dont want to have LED side posn lights and a > filament tail light. Im not in a hurry but will probably buy the > first set I see. Would like that to be you as you support the > matronics lists, AeroLectric readers, etc. > > Rob Wright > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:17 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Rear Seats From: "zackrv8" --> RV10-List message posted by: "zackrv8" Anybody know if the rear seat cushions are included in the finish kit? Van's accessory catalog offers them and implies that you don't get them with the finish kit. Zack -------- RV8 #80125 RV10 # 40512 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=14531#14531 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:17 PM PST US From: GenGrumpy@AOL.COM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Chelton Recall For all with Cheltons. The recall is for the AHRS units (not made by Chelton). I was at my avionics shop on Monday and we discussed the issue. The manufacturer of the prior units had significant quality control issues they could not resolve, so Chelton has gone elsewhere. The units already installed are being recalled (at no cost to the owners). Others, like me, will have a little more delay in getting the new AHRS units. Latest estimate is mid to latter part of March. According to my avionics guy, these new units have a great track record and should not give any problems. By the way, the displays of my Cheltons was phenomenal (in the shop). I have not had the chance to check them out in bright sunlight. Hopefully someone else in the -10 bunch has them flying now and can provide assessment on readability in bright sunlight?? grumpy #40404 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:09 PM PST US From: "John Dunne" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rear Seats --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Dunne" The implication is correct. You don't get! John #40315 Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of zackrv8 Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 1:12 PM Subject: RV10-List: Rear Seats --> RV10-List message posted by: "zackrv8" Anybody know if the rear seat cushions are included in the finish kit? Van's accessory catalog offers them and implies that you don't get them with the finish kit. Zack -------- RV8 #80125 RV10 # 40512 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=14531#14531 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:04 PM PST US From: "Marcus Cooper" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rear Seats --> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper" Zack, They are NOT in the finishing kit. I just ordered and received mine from Van's. Marcus -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of zackrv8 Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 10:12 PM Subject: RV10-List: Rear Seats --> RV10-List message posted by: "zackrv8" Anybody know if the rear seat cushions are included in the finish kit? Van's accessory catalog offers them and implies that you don't get them with the finish kit. Zack -------- RV8 #80125 RV10 # 40512 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=14531#14531 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:02 PM PST US From: "Russell Daves" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rear Seats --> RV10-List message posted by: "Russell Daves" They are not included in the kit. If you buy seat covers from Abby, Cleavland, etc. they supply the rear cushions and you ship them the front seats and front seat cushions. If you have them covered locally you need to buy the rear seat cushions from Van's. Russ Daves #40044 ----- Original Message ----- From: "zackrv8" Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:12 PM Subject: RV10-List: Rear Seats > --> RV10-List message posted by: "zackrv8" > > Anybody know if the rear seat cushions are included in the finish kit? > Van's accessory catalog offers them and implies that you don't get them > with the finish kit. > > Zack > > -------- > RV8 #80125 > RV10 # 40512 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=14531#14531 > > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:39 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: Chelton AHRS recall viewpoint --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I thought I'd give my own customer side viewpoint regarding the Chelton AHRS recall. Being a flying customer with the Chelton system, I of course had an interest in the outcome from day one, and now that information is public it's nice to be able to talk about it a bit more. Just so people who may not have paid attention know, the issue is with the AHRS itself, made by Crossbow. Chelton has sold quite a few of these units, but from the sound of it, they aren't really that old. The 425EX has gone out to many customers. I'm not sure of the numbers, but I'm sure it's in the many many tens, or maybe near 100. There are other Crossbow units that are not necessarily affected, such as the certified unit. From my flying perspective of the AHRS, and from some of the benefits that the 425EX had, it was a very nice AHRS overall. Except, it suffers from some sort of power related problem that causes it to not always boot up. Even in my limited flying (just under 25 hours), I've had the experience of it not booting on one flight. After resetting it a couple times, it came to life. It never failed in the air to this point, but that doesn't give me tons of confidence in iteself. Performance wise, the 425EX was supposed to be superior to the certified unit, because over time the experimental units were able to be improved, but certification, well, kind of kills innovation. Had it not been for this power problem, I'm sure the AHRS would have served well for the builders. In my installation I found no magnetic effects, it tracks perfect heading with my GNS480, and everything seems to work very well, even in heavier banking and quick pitch and roll changes. With the AHRS problem, Chelton knew they were going to lose customer trust in the entire system if the heart of the heading/attitude info was compromised. We're building 4 place planes too, so we're not just pilots risking their own lives. Families will fly in these planes. So they wanted complete reliability. Apparently, and here is where I start to lose more detail quickly, they found another manufacturer that they worked with and got a far superior AHRS. From what I understand, from a performance and reliability standpoint, this new GADAHRS should be on par with carrier-class systems from a reliability and performance stanpoint. I first read some words leading to some of the benefits in Kitplanes a couple months ago. The article messed up and said it was made by Electronics Intl., which was incorrect...I think they were referring to the new EIS that integrates with Chelton...if you want to spend the $$$ on it. At any rate, I heard it there first. I kind of wondered what would happen with mine. It sounded like the new one would be superior in most ways, and I thought I'd be stuck with the old. Then I relaxed and thought that as long as they fixed the power problem, they still had a great AHRS, probably better than what you'd find in most other EFIS systems. After a little while, I got to speak with D2AV and learn a little about what they thought of the new AHRS, and it sure sounds like it's got some phenomenal performance. It also uses a remote magnetometer so that if you want to mount the AHRS on the CG centerpoint or somewhere convenient, you can, and move the magnetometer to some other location away from magnetic disturbances. It has it's own Air data in it, so you add a pitot and static line to it. It's supposed to be self-leveling, so there's no need to worry about mounting location tolerances and such. All in all, if it does anywhere near as well as it sounds, it's going to be a great thing. More recently, I got to speak with them again and heard that they were planning to pull back all of the old Crossbow units....which of course we all expected would be repaired. But then they added that they would be sending the customers the new AHRS. I don't have any idea of the actual total cost of the new unit, but from conversations I've had, it sounds like it's well over $10K per unit. Nice that they're willing to replace them even with that price tag. Given the number of units sold, that makes it in the neighborhood of $1,000,000 that they're eating to ensure they have happy, and safe customers. The way I see it, any product could be found to have an issue. What really matters is how it's dealt with. We're "experimental", so we can't expect things to always be 100%, but in the case of the AHRS, I can tell that's what they're shooting for. It's probably a case of covering their a$$, but since they're trying to protect mine too by replacing it, it earns a few points. I'm not sure how many companies would be willing to do all that. I've spoken in the past about Chelton stuff as I was researching it. You should know that I paid for my units like anyone else, and I have no interest in promotion, but I'm duly impressed, especially after flying behind it. The EFIS transition is going very well for me. There are disappointments so far.....the GNS480 integration basically isn't. That may change as the programmers get time. Currently I'm working through why my TIS traffic display isn't being passed on. One way or the other, the traffic will be made to work. The GNS480 I *thought* was a big deal, but now that I'm flying with what I have, I actually think I'm ok with non-integration. It's now a totally separate backup, since it forced me to buy a nice Mid-Continent MD200-306 CDI, which after calibration works extremely well. The auto-tuning would be nice, but I'm finding that I'm only using COM1 anyway...COM2 (the GNS480) is relegated to picking up my AWOS so far. The EIS integration is very nice. The response rate is super on both the EIS data and the attitude data. The display is very readable in even bright light, and the resolution is just what I wanted. If it only had digital Jepp charts built it....oh well, there's always SOMETHING more. ;) So anyway, I know I've gotten a couple emails from people wondering if I was disappointed with the problems. No, not right now. In a couple months I'll be flying IFR with it...would be nice to do some enroute IFR on the way to Sun-N-Fun. Right now though, I need more time with the unit so I'm not too disappointed. I think they'll be targeting their flying customers for the new units first, which would only be fair (of course I'd say that) for delivery of the new GADAHRS. Once they get me mine, I plan to take a day off from work and do an immediate swap. Having spent some time behind my original system, I'll give some immediate feedback on it. I would have spread a bit of news earlier, but when a company like Chelton needs to deal with vendors and contracts and customers, past, present, and future, it doesn't always do them good to get rumors that may or may not turn out to be true out in public. So, I just let it move forward hoping that it would turn out OK for all of us. Sounds like it will. Sorry so long. Tim -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:02 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: FW: LED strobes, etc. --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Deems, Those are really beautiful. You did a great job. Some day if I get tired of mine, I'll give you some cash and you can make me a set. ;) Tim Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Deems Davis wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis > > I just installed these. http://deemsrv10.com/decisions.html (scroll down > to the write up on the LED Nav & Strobes) > I found them on Vans Air Force site, and RV 7 builder made them, the > links are in the write-up if anybody's interested. > > > Deems Davis # 406 > Fuse > http://deemsrv10.com/ > > > Robert G. Wright wrote: > >> All, Im not looking to wire together my own nav lights that include >> the strobe tube, so I asked Eric at Perihelion: >> >> Rob, >> >> (Sorry for the late reply). >> >> I am planning a combo this Spring. No firm delivery date yet. >> >> Regards, >> Eric M. Jones >> emjones@charter.net >> www.PerihelionDesign.com >> 113 Brentwood Drive >> Southbridge MA 01550-2705 >> (508) 764-2072 >> >> Eric, >> >> I still check the sites consistently looking for anyone who will >> put together a combo tail light/strobe for use specifically in the >> RV-10 as a direct replacement for the System 6 Vans sells from >> Whelen. I really dont want to have LED side posn lights and a >> filament tail light. Im not in a hurry but will probably buy the >> first set I see. Would like that to be you as you support the >> matronics lists, AeroLectric readers, etc. >> >> Rob Wright >> > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:23 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Chelton Recall --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Hey Grumpy, I just wrote a long-winded post on the recall myself. To answer your question though, yes, the screens are absolutely beautiful in the sunlight. Once I can bring some passengers (probably Saturday) I'll try to get some photos in the cockpit. I've been flying most every day after work until sundown. The sun has been low in the sky, causing blinding light. I have that small 25nm circle, so I've had to basically do a steep turn around the whole thing for 25 hours....so I hit all sun angles. No problems at all reading the screen. You won't be disappointed. Tim Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive GenGrumpy@aol.com wrote: > For all with Cheltons. > > The recall is for the AHRS units (not made by Chelton). I was at my > avionics shop on Monday and we discussed the issue. The manufacturer of > the prior units had significant quality control issues they could not > resolve, so Chelton has gone elsewhere. > > The units already installed are being recalled (at no cost to the > owners). Others, like me, will have a little more delay in getting the > new AHRS units. Latest estimate is mid to latter part of March. > > According to my avionics guy, these new units have a great track record > and should not give any problems. > > By the way, the displays of my Cheltons was phenomenal (in the shop). I > have not had the chance to check them out in bright sunlight. Hopefully > someone else in the -10 bunch has them flying now and can provide > assessment on readability in bright sunlight?? > > grumpy > #40404 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:14 PM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: Re: RV10-List: FW: LED strobes, etc. --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis Just to clarify, I didn't make them, (but wish I had!) an RV 7 builder named Jeff Bordelon made them, I found them on one of the posts on Doug Reeves site, and contacted him and he agreed to make me a set. It's the 1st RV-10 set he's done. The Nav lights and the strobes along with the power supplies for the nav lights was $300. I felt that was more than reasonable, compared to what I'd seen advertised just for the LED nav light from other sources. It did cause me to change from Van's lighting (wingtip) to Duckworks, but I'm also happy with that as well. Deems Davis # 406 Fuse http://deemsrv10.com/ Tim Olson wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > Deems, > Those are really beautiful. You did a great job. Some day if I get > tired of mine, I'll give you some cash and you can make me a set. ;) > Tim > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > do not archive > > > Deems Davis wrote: > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis >> >> I just installed these. http://deemsrv10.com/decisions.html (scroll >> down to the write up on the LED Nav & Strobes) >> I found them on Vans Air Force site, and RV 7 builder made them, the >> links are in the write-up if anybody's interested. >> >> >> Deems Davis # 406 >> Fuse >> http://deemsrv10.com/ >> >> >> Robert G. Wright wrote: >> >>> All, Im not looking to wire together my own nav lights that include >>> the strobe tube, so I asked Eric at Perihelion: >>> >>> Rob, >>> >>> (Sorry for the late reply). >>> >>> I am planning a combo this Spring. No firm delivery date yet. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Eric M. Jones >>> emjones@charter.net >>> www.PerihelionDesign.com >>> 113 Brentwood Drive >>> Southbridge MA 01550-2705 >>> (508) 764-2072 >>> >>> Eric, >>> >>> I still check the sites consistently looking for anyone who will >>> put together a combo tail light/strobe for use specifically in the >>> RV-10 as a direct replacement for the System 6 Vans sells from >>> Whelen. I really dont want to have LED side posn lights and a >>> filament tail light. Im not in a hurry but will probably buy the >>> first set I see. Would like that to be you as you support the >>> matronics lists, AeroLectric readers, etc. >>> >>> Rob Wright >>> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:18 PM PST US From: "John Dunne" Subject: RE: RV10-List: FW: LED strobes, etc. --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Dunne" Deems, Your light setup looks fantastic! What I'm interested in though, is a reference you make on your site to building your own fiberglass instrument panel. Have you progressed with this as yet? I'm curious as I can't seem to get much feedback on the commercially available units and am thinking along the same lines of making my own. John #40315 Fuse. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 12:06 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: FW: LED strobes, etc. --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis I just installed these. http://deemsrv10.com/decisions.html (scroll down to the write up on the LED Nav & Strobes) I found them on Vans Air Force site, and RV 7 builder made them, the links are in the write-up if anybody's interested. Deems Davis # 406 Fuse http://deemsrv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:28 PM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: Re: RV10-List: FW: LED strobes, etc. remaned fiberglass panel --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis I haven't started on the instrument panel/console yet, and probably won't for another 3 months (??) I'm trying to stay pretty much in sequence. But in my prior life (Long e-z and Lancair) working w/ fiberglass showed just how easy it could be . I figure that l'd order some 1/4" high density foam and then laminate it both sides with glass, then I'll begin to shape the moulded pieces (borders, ridges, etc and attach them. Then do a lay -up over that. I fugure that I'll still keep metal (Alum?) panel inserts, making them modular, and attach them to the glass structure w/ nutplates. that way if you decide to change/update the panel you can remake the partucular module and reinstall. We'll see how it goes, if it turns out OK, it shouldn't be too big of a deal to pull a mold, that could be shared. One of the prime reasons is that I want more vertical panel space, and the blank that Van provides is too narrow. I'm not the tallest person in the world so I can easily afford to trade off some knee room for some added panel real estate. If I recall the information I got while @ OSH indicated that the cost of the bare fiberglass frames was just under $1k. Shouldn't be too hard to beat that price. Deems Davis # 406 Fuse http://deemsrv10.com/ John Dunne wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Dunne" > >Deems, > >Your light setup looks fantastic! >What I'm interested in though, is a reference you make on your site to >building your own fiberglass instrument panel. Have you progressed with this >as yet? >I'm curious as I can't seem to get much feedback on the commercially >available units and am thinking along the same lines of making my own. > >John #40315 Fuse. >Do not archive > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis >Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 12:06 PM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV10-List: FW: LED strobes, etc. > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis > >I just installed these. http://deemsrv10.com/decisions.html (scroll down >to the write up on the LED Nav & Strobes) >I found them on Vans Air Force site, and RV 7 builder made them, the >links are in the write-up if anybody's interested. > > >Deems Davis # 406 >Fuse >http://deemsrv10.com/ > > > > > > > > >