---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/27/06: 51 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:37 AM - Re: Your bucking bar input please. (Niko) 2. 05:31 AM - Fuselage width on Gear dimension (Larry Rosen) 3. 05:41 AM - Re: Fuselage width on Gear dimension (Conti, Rick) 4. 05:53 AM - Re: Fuselage width on Gear dimension (Tim Olson) 5. 05:56 AM - Re: Fuselage width on Gear dimension (Jesse Saint) 6. 05:57 AM - Re: Fuselage width on Gear dimension (Tim Olson) 7. 06:15 AM - Re: Fuselage width on Gear dimension (Doerr, Ray R [NTK]) 8. 06:18 AM - Gear width and garage openings (Bob Newman) 9. 07:00 AM - Re: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear (John W. Cox) 10. 07:26 AM - Re: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear (Larry Rosen) 11. 07:29 AM - Re: Fuselage width on Gear dimension (Larry Rosen) 12. 07:52 AM - Re: Fuselage width on Gear dimension (Conti, Rick) 13. 08:01 AM - Re: Extra fuel tanks (Albert Gardner) 14. 08:08 AM - Re: Fuselage width on Gear dimension (Jesse Saint) 15. 08:32 AM - Re: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear (David McNeill) 16. 08:40 AM - Re: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear (Nikolaos Napoli) 17. 09:19 AM - Autogas for 540 (Dan Masys) 18. 09:22 AM - Re: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear (Tom Deutsch) 19. 09:24 AM - Re: New fuel valve handle (Randy DeBauw) 20. 09:24 AM - Re: Autogas for 540 (GRANSCOTT@AOL.COM) 21. 09:38 AM - Re: Autogas for 540 (Tim Dawson-Townsend) 22. 09:45 AM - Re: Autogas for 540 (GRANSCOTT@aol.com) 23. 09:53 AM - Re: Autogas for 540 (Tommy Norman) 24. 10:49 AM - Re: Autogas for 540 (Cal Hoffman) 25. 11:05 AM - Re: Autogas for 540 (Brian Sponcil) 26. 11:34 AM - Re: Autogas for 540 (Bob Newman) 27. 11:44 AM - Re: Autogas for 540 (John Gonzalez) 28. 11:52 AM - Re: Autogas for 540 (Tim Dawson-Townsend) 29. 12:11 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 30. 12:28 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (Tim Dawson-Townsend) 31. 12:42 PM - Re: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear (Conti, Rick) 32. 12:47 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (Conti, Rick) 33. 01:25 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (James Hein) 34. 01:42 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (John Jessen) 35. 01:44 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (LIKE2LOOP@aol.com) 36. 01:45 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (John Jessen) 37. 01:47 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (Kelly McMullen) 38. 02:44 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (Eric Panning) 39. 02:56 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (GRANSCOTT@AOL.COM) 40. 03:16 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (Chris Johnston) 41. 03:33 PM - Re: RV Assembly Workshop (Jay Brinkmeyer) 42. 06:09 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (bob.kaufmann) 43. 06:12 PM - Re: Re: Extra fuel tanks () 44. 06:20 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (John Gonzalez) 45. 06:56 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (McGANN, Ron) 46. 07:01 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (IO-540) (Tim Lewis) 47. 08:31 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (Kelly McMullen) 48. 08:55 PM - Re: Extra fuel tanks (LessDragProd@aol.com) 49. 09:19 PM - Re: Autogas for 540 (John W. Cox) 50. 09:21 PM - Re: Extra fuel tanks (John W. Cox) 51. 09:36 PM - Re: Re: RV Assembly Workshop (David Maib) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:37:30 AM PST US From: "Niko" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Your bucking bar input please. --> RV10-List message posted by: "Niko" No it doesn't meet they will fall apart, however, in the case of pop rivets the designer assumes the steel stem is lost and uses either more rivets or larger diameter rivets. In this case a pop rivet has aboout one third the strength of a solid 2117 rivet so one can use three times as many or a larger diameter or a combination of the two. Also in a lot of cases the number of rivets is determined by criteria other than strength such as smoothness. Obviously in such cases one can use a weaker rivet without a penalty. My point below is that the joint in question is carrying engine loads and I would not weaken it by substituting pop rivets without either a detail structural analysis of the joint or an OK from Vans. Niko 40188 -----Original Message----- From: "Indran Chelvanayagam" Sent: 4/24/06 3:21:46 AM To: "rv10-list@matronics.com" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Your bucking bar input please. Does this mean that aeroplanes with pop rivets (eg Zenith, Zodiac, upcoming RV12) will eventually fall apart? (Do not archive) _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos Napoli Sent: Saturday, 22 April 2006 9:42 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Your bucking bar input please. Hi Deems, I finished that section about 2 months ago and have allready forgotten exactly what I did. I did use the empennage bucking bar in a lot of places and a steel plate about 1/4 " thick by about 2 inches wide and about 8 inches long which a shoved into tight areas. I believe I might have squeezed some of the rivets in the area you are talking about. I would caution against using blind rivets in this area as some of the engine loads are coming through that joint. If you absolutely must use blind rivets make sure you use something like the CherryMax ones that have a locking feature that keeps the stem in place. The problem with most of the pop rivets is that if subjected to vibration the steel stem falls off and you are left with a hollow aluminum cylinder as your fastener that has a much reduced strength. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:31:17 AM PST US From: Larry Rosen Subject: RV10-List: Fuselage width on Gear dimension --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen Would someone please measure the maximum width of the fuselage after the landing gear is installed. I believe this would be the dimension from the outside of the landing gear. I have a 3 car garage but it is only 22' deep and there is a column between the bays. I am trying to figure out if I can put the plane on the gear and install the engine with the assembly on an angle and still get it out with out major surgery on something like the garage door opening. My alternate is to construct a temporary garage extension which I want to avoid if possible. -- Larry Rosen RV-10 #356 http://lrosen.nerv10.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuselage width on Gear dimension From: "Conti, Rick" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" Check the three view drawing (available on Tim's site), it's 7' 4" to the center of the tires.. I have the same issue. Thank You Rick Conti Senior Engineering Manager The Boeing Company office: 703 - 414 - 6141 blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134 -----Original Message----- From: Larry Rosen [mailto:LarryRosen@comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: RV10-List: Fuselage width on Gear dimension --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen Would someone please measure the maximum width of the fuselage after the landing gear is installed. I believe this would be the dimension from the outside of the landing gear. I have a 3 car garage but it is only 22' deep and there is a column between the bays. I am trying to figure out if I can put the plane on the gear and install the engine with the assembly on an angle and still get it out with out major surgery on something like the garage door opening. My alternate is to construct a temporary garage extension which I want to avoid if possible. -- Larry Rosen RV-10 #356 http://lrosen.nerv10.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:54 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuselage width on Gear dimension --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I think you're right around 8'. I used a 108" wide trailer to haul it to the airport and I had 4 or 6 inches on the outsides of each tire. If you plan for 9' wide, you should definitely have plenty of room. That's not exact, but it should be close. I think when we were measuring the tire-center widths for where to put the ramps to the trailer, it was about 93 or 94" apart. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Larry Rosen wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen > > Would someone please measure the maximum width of the fuselage after the > landing gear is installed. I believe this would be the dimension from > the outside of the landing gear. > > I have a 3 car garage but it is only 22' deep and there is a column > between the bays. I am trying to figure out if I can put the plane on > the gear and install the engine with the assembly on an angle and still > get it out with out major surgery on something like the garage door > opening. My alternate is to construct a temporary garage extension > which I want to avoid if possible. > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:08 AM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuselage width on Gear dimension --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" 7'9" on gear with no wheels or tires on. It may spread a little with the weight of the engine. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org 352-465-4545 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:27 AM Subject: RV10-List: Fuselage width on Gear dimension --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen Would someone please measure the maximum width of the fuselage after the landing gear is installed. I believe this would be the dimension from the outside of the landing gear. I have a 3 car garage but it is only 22' deep and there is a column between the bays. I am trying to figure out if I can put the plane on the gear and install the engine with the assembly on an angle and still get it out with out major surgery on something like the garage door opening. My alternate is to construct a temporary garage extension which I want to avoid if possible. -- Larry Rosen RV-10 #356 http://lrosen.nerv10.com -- -- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:34 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuselage width on Gear dimension --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Ahhh, you may be right on. In the email I just posted I said we measured 93 or 94" when setting up the ramps. I think that wasn't tire centers, but was the outside edges of the ramps, which would be about right if the tire centers were 88". Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Conti, Rick wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" > > Check the three view drawing (available on Tim's site), it's 7' 4" to > the center of the tires.. I have the same issue. > > Thank You > Rick Conti > Senior Engineering Manager > The Boeing Company > office: 703 - 414 - 6141 > blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Larry Rosen [mailto:LarryRosen@comcast.net] > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:27 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Fuselage width on Gear dimension > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen > > Would someone please measure the maximum width of the fuselage after the > > landing gear is installed. I believe this would be the dimension from > the outside of the landing gear. > > I have a 3 car garage but it is only 22' deep and there is a column > between the bays. I am trying to figure out if I can put the plane on > the gear and install the engine with the assembly on an angle and still > get it out with out major surgery on something like the garage door > opening. My alternate is to construct a temporary garage extension > which I want to avoid if possible. > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:14 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuselage width on Gear dimension From: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" I just moved mine to the airport last week on a rollback tow truck. The width at the outside of the tires is 7' 10" with the hex spindle for the wheel pant hanging out further. The spindle is 5" off the ground. I had to find a rollback tow truck that was 8' wide and the side rails come off to be able to do the move. Thank You Ray Doerr CDNI Principal Engineer Sprint PCS 16020 West 113th Street Lenexa, KS 66219 Mailstop KSLNXK0101 (913) 859-1414 (Office) (913) 226-0106 (Pcs) (913) 859-1234 (Fax) Ray.R.Doerr@sprint.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:53 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuselage width on Gear dimension --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I think you're right around 8'. I used a 108" wide trailer to haul it to the airport and I had 4 or 6 inches on the outsides of each tire. If you plan for 9' wide, you should definitely have plenty of room. That's not exact, but it should be close. I think when we were measuring the tire-center widths for where to put the ramps to the trailer, it was about 93 or 94" apart. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Larry Rosen wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen > > Would someone please measure the maximum width of the fuselage after the > landing gear is installed. I believe this would be the dimension from > the outside of the landing gear. > > I have a 3 car garage but it is only 22' deep and there is a column > between the bays. I am trying to figure out if I can put the plane on > the gear and install the engine with the assembly on an angle and still > get it out with out major surgery on something like the garage door > opening. My alternate is to construct a temporary garage extension > which I want to avoid if possible. > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:36 AM PST US From: "Bob Newman" Subject: RV10-List: Gear width and garage openings --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Newman" When we built our 3 Glastar's we did each of them in an area that ultimately required us to roll thru an 8' wide garage door opening. The gear on a Glastar is about 94" axel to axel when installed, but when you add an engine, prop and all the other goodies it spreads to more than 8'. The solution, which I believe will be applicable to the RV-10 is to attach a ratcheting tie-down strap between to the two axels, down low near the wheel and pull the two axels towards eachl together. We were able to very easily spring the gear in and roll right thru the door opening. :) Bob Newman ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:06 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear From: "John W. Cox" --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" No. When the manufacturer calls out a 7.9mm ream then the objective may just be a tolerance (tight) fit. Fretting and Galling will ensue over a short period of time. The issue (question) should always be, if this doesn't work what is the serviceability issue the second time I do it. Don't try to sand the cadmium coating off either. Both the mount, the bolt and the gear leg would need replacement. Calculate the hard dollar cost, then add the effort to retrofit correctly reamed replacement parts. That includes R & R. In the effort to cut a corner or two, or save a few dollars, the experimental builder can give legions of stories of shooting themselves in the proverbial foot just a few months or years down the road. That said, I have a source of liquid nitrogen at work which makes such a clearance the non-issue. Study the concept and calculate the serviceability cost. It is a corner that I would say NO to. Too much is riding on it. Take a moment and ask your buddies at work about altering written aeronautical plans. Talk to your DAR and Tech Inspector. Van also says alter the design at your own risk. Until they put 5/16" in writing, accept no employees dialog on such an issue (unless admissible in Oregon court). John Cox - $00.02 Do not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Conti, Rick Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:08 AM Subject: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear --> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" Whenever I start a new "kit", I review the instructions several times, once to ensure I have the necessary tools and parts. The .311" drill bit appeared to be a problem. I called Van's and received an interesting answer: I was told a 5/16 bit would be okay. I haven't installed the gear yet and after reading about loose landing gear I had second thoughts. I received my .311" reamer from McMaster-Carr (thanks for the info) yesterday. But is has occurred to me, that 5/16" would be fine provided the bolt matched. Drilling with a 5/16" bit though the leg and support would not cause a problem. The problem would be from an undersized bolt. Would everyone agree 5/16" would be okay with a proper (precise fit) bolt? Thank You Rick Conti Senior Engineering Manager The Boeing Company office: 703 - 414 - 6141 blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:00 AM PST US From: Larry Rosen Subject: Re: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen Not all of us would have access to liquid nitrogen, but dry ice may do the trick. Larry John W. Cox wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" > >No. When the manufacturer calls out a 7.9mm ream then the objective may >just be a tolerance (tight) fit. Fretting and Galling will ensue over a >short period of time. The issue (question) should always be, if this >doesn't work what is the serviceability issue the second time I do it. >Don't try to sand the cadmium coating off either. > >Both the mount, the bolt and the gear leg would need replacement. >Calculate the hard dollar cost, then add the effort to retrofit >correctly reamed replacement parts. That includes R & R. In the effort >to cut a corner or two, or save a few dollars, the experimental builder >can give legions of stories of shooting themselves in the proverbial >foot just a few months or years down the road. > >That said, I have a source of liquid nitrogen at work which makes such a >clearance the non-issue. Study the concept and calculate the >serviceability cost. It is a corner that I would say NO to. Too much >is riding on it. Take a moment and ask your buddies at work about >altering written aeronautical plans. Talk to your DAR and Tech >Inspector. > >Van also says alter the design at your own risk. Until they put 5/16" >in writing, accept no employees dialog on such an issue (unless >admissible in Oregon court). > >John Cox - $00.02 >Do not Archive > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Conti, Rick >Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:08 AM >To: RV 10 >Subject: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" > >Whenever I start a new "kit", I review the instructions several times, >once to ensure I have the necessary tools and parts. The .311" drill >bit appeared to be a problem. I called Van's and received an >interesting answer: I was told a 5/16 bit would be okay. I haven't >installed the gear yet and after reading about loose landing gear I had >second thoughts. I received my .311" reamer from McMaster-Carr (thanks >for the info) yesterday. But is has occurred to me, that 5/16" would be >fine provided the bolt matched. Drilling with a 5/16" bit though the >leg and support would not cause a problem. The problem would be from an >undersized bolt. Would everyone agree 5/16" would be okay with a proper >(precise fit) bolt? > >Thank You >Rick Conti >Senior Engineering Manager >The Boeing Company > office: 703 - 414 - 6141 >blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:23 AM PST US From: Larry Rosen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuselage width on Gear dimension --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen Thank you all for the quick response. Unfortunately, I do not like the answer. :-( Now, how do I tell the wife that I am going to have an extension off the garage? Larry Rosen do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:33 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuselage width on Gear dimension From: "Conti, Rick" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" Tell her it's an anniversary gift. DO NOT ARCHIVE... or tell my wife I wrote this. Thank You Rick Conti Senior Engineering Manager The Boeing Company office: 703 - 414 - 6141 blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134 -----Original Message----- From: Larry Rosen [mailto:LarryRosen@comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:26 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuselage width on Gear dimension --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen Thank you all for the quick response. Unfortunately, I do not like the answer. :-( Now, how do I tell the wife that I am going to have an extension off the garage? Larry Rosen do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:42 AM PST US From: "Albert Gardner" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Extra fuel tanks Our FBO here gives home-base pilots a excellent deal on avgas-at one point last year during the last run-up in prices, there was almost $2/gal difference in area gas prices. Bigger tanks would give me greater out and back range without having to refuel. Albert Gardner Yuma, AZ -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LessDragProd@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 6:18 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Extra fuel tanks How long did you want to sit? At full throttle at 2100 RPM and 60 gallons, you can sit for 4 1/2 hours and still have a half hour reserve. Jim Ayers In a message dated 04/26/2006 4:25:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gorejr@bellsouth.net writes: --> RV10-List message posted by: Is it possible to add the 15 gallon extra fuel with the quickbuild wing? I know alot of the fuel system is in place. Thanks! Jim Gore RV-10 Griffin GA ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:50 AM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuselage width on Gear dimension --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" Another option is to put each wheel on a floor dolly so it can move sideways, then you can get one gear leg out and slide it over enough to get the other one out. We have gotten ours through an opening 88" wide this way. We didn't have the engine on and we were carrying it, but this is probably your solution. You would probably want to layout the gear and engine and prop in plywood, cut it out as accurately as possibly, lay it on the floor and see if it can get out. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org 352-465-4545 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 9:26 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuselage width on Gear dimension --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen Thank you all for the quick response. Unfortunately, I do not like the answer. :-( Now, how do I tell the wife that I am going to have an extension off the garage? Larry Rosen do not archive -- -- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:04 AM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: Re: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear --> RV10-List message posted by: "David McNeill" Do you really want to shrink the bolt to get a tight fit? How will you ever remove gear leg in the event of accidental damage that requires it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Rosen" Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:22 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear > --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen > > Not all of us would have access to liquid nitrogen, but dry ice may do the > trick. > > Larry > > John W. Cox wrote: > >>--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" >> >>No. When the manufacturer calls out a 7.9mm ream then the objective may >>just be a tolerance (tight) fit. Fretting and Galling will ensue over a >>short period of time. The issue (question) should always be, if this >>doesn't work what is the serviceability issue the second time I do it. >>Don't try to sand the cadmium coating off either. >> >>Both the mount, the bolt and the gear leg would need replacement. >>Calculate the hard dollar cost, then add the effort to retrofit >>correctly reamed replacement parts. That includes R & R. In the effort >>to cut a corner or two, or save a few dollars, the experimental builder >>can give legions of stories of shooting themselves in the proverbial >>foot just a few months or years down the road. >> >>That said, I have a source of liquid nitrogen at work which makes such a >>clearance the non-issue. Study the concept and calculate the >>serviceability cost. It is a corner that I would say NO to. Too much >>is riding on it. Take a moment and ask your buddies at work about >>altering written aeronautical plans. Talk to your DAR and Tech >>Inspector. >> >>Van also says alter the design at your own risk. Until they put 5/16" >>in writing, accept no employees dialog on such an issue (unless >>admissible in Oregon court). >> >>John Cox - $00.02 >>Do not Archive >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Conti, Rick >>Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:08 AM >>To: RV 10 >>Subject: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear >> >>--> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" >> >>Whenever I start a new "kit", I review the instructions several times, >>once to ensure I have the necessary tools and parts. The .311" drill >>bit appeared to be a problem. I called Van's and received an >>interesting answer: I was told a 5/16 bit would be okay. I haven't >>installed the gear yet and after reading about loose landing gear I had >>second thoughts. I received my .311" reamer from McMaster-Carr (thanks >>for the info) yesterday. But is has occurred to me, that 5/16" would be >>fine provided the bolt matched. Drilling with a 5/16" bit though the >>leg and support would not cause a problem. The problem would be from an >>undersized bolt. Would everyone agree 5/16" would be okay with a proper >>(precise fit) bolt? >> >>Thank You >>Rick Conti >>Senior Engineering Manager >>The Boeing Company >> office: 703 - 414 - 6141 >>blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:59 AM PST US From: Nikolaos Napoli Subject: Re: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear I totally agree on this. The 7.9 mm drill is inexpensive compared to the hardware its being used on, and its easy to locate one. Its worth several minutes of fuel flying the RV10. Niko ----- Original Message ---- From: John W. Cox Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 9:57:35 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" No. When the manufacturer calls out a 7.9mm ream then the objective may just be a tolerance (tight) fit. Fretting and Galling will ensue over a short period of time. The issue (question) should always be, if this doesn't work what is the serviceability issue the second time I do it. Don't try to sand the cadmium coating off either. Both the mount, the bolt and the gear leg would need replacement. Calculate the hard dollar cost, then add the effort to retrofit correctly reamed replacement parts. That includes R & R. In the effort to cut a corner or two, or save a few dollars, the experimental builder can give legions of stories of shooting themselves in the proverbial foot just a few months or years down the road. That said, I have a source of liquid nitrogen at work which makes such a clearance the non-issue. Study the concept and calculate the serviceability cost. It is a corner that I would say NO to. Too much is riding on it. Take a moment and ask your buddies at work about altering written aeronautical plans. Talk to your DAR and Tech Inspector. Van also says alter the design at your own risk. Until they put 5/16" in writing, accept no employees dialog on such an issue (unless admissible in Oregon court). John Cox - $00.02 Do not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Conti, Rick Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:08 AM Subject: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear --> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" Whenever I start a new "kit", I review the instructions several times, once to ensure I have the necessary tools and parts. The .311" drill bit appeared to be a problem. I called Van's and received an interesting answer: I was told a 5/16 bit would be okay. I haven't installed the gear yet and after reading about loose landing gear I had second thoughts. I received my .311" reamer from McMaster-Carr (thanks for the info) yesterday. But is has occurred to me, that 5/16" would be fine provided the bolt matched. Drilling with a 5/16" bit though the leg and support would not cause a problem. The problem would be from an undersized bolt. Would everyone agree 5/16" would be okay with a proper (precise fit) bolt? Thank You Rick Conti Senior Engineering Manager The Boeing Company office: 703 - 414 - 6141 blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:52 AM PST US From: Dan Masys Subject: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys 100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this week. It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an autogas STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on autogas, saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, with those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 octane: 0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, -A1B5*, -A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, -D1A5*, -E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, -H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of greed, where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a dollar. Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? -Dan Masys #40448 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:24 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear From: "Tom Deutsch" How long should the bit or reamer be? Is a bit or reamer more preferable? Tom Deutsch From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos Napoli Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:40 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear I totally agree on this. The 7.9 mm drill is inexpensive compared to the hardware its being used on, and its easy to locate one. Its worth several minutes of fuel flying the RV10. Niko ----- Original Message ---- From: John W. Cox Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 9:57:35 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" No. When the manufacturer calls out a 7.9mm ream then the objective may just be a tolerance (tight) fit. Fretting and Galling will ensue over a short period of time. The issue (question) should always be, if this doesn't work what is the serviceability issue the second time I do it. Don't try to sand the cadmium coating off either. Both the mount, the bolt and the gear leg would need replacement. Calculate the hard dollar cost, then add the effort to retrofit correctly reamed replacement parts. That includes R & R. In the effort to cut a corner or two, or save a few dollars, the experimental builder can give legions of stories of shooting themselves in the proverbial foot just a few months or years down the road. That said, I have a source of liquid nitrogen at work which makes such a clearance the non-issue. Study the concept and calculate the serviceability cost. It is a corner that I would say NO to. Too much is riding on it. Take a moment and ask your buddies at work about altering written aeronautical plans. Talk to your DAR and Tech Inspector. Van also says alter the design at your own risk. Until they put 5/16" in writing, accept no employees dialog on such an issue (unless admissible in Oregon court). John Cox - $00.02 Do not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Conti, Rick Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:08 AM Subject: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear --> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" Whenever I start a new "kit", I review the instructions several times, once to ensure I have the necessary tools and parts. The .311" drill bit appeared to be a problem. I called Van's and received an interesting answer: I was told a 5/16 bit would be okay. I haven't installed the gear yet and after reading about loose landing gear I had second thoughts. I received my .311" reamer from McMaster-Carr (thanks for the info) yesterday. But is has occurred to me, that 5/16" would be fine provided the bolt matched. Drilling with a 5/16" bit though the leg and support would not cause a problem. The problem would be from an undersized bolt. Would everyone agree 5/16" would be okay with a proper (precise fit) bolt? Thank You Rick Conti Senior Engineering Manager The Boeing Company office: 703 - 414 - 6141 blackberry: 571 - 215 - ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:31 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: New fuel valve handle From: "Randy DeBauw" Mike count me in. Please send another email when stock has arrived. Thanks, Randy ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Lauritsen - Work Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 1:24 PM Subject: RV10-List: New fuel valve handle We have designed a new fuel handle for those using Van's stock fuel valve. They will be available in a few weeks for $47. See our website for more info or to pre-order at: http://www.cleavelandtoolstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=3DRVFS1 Mike Mike Lauritsen Cleaveland Aircraft Tool 2225 First St. Boone, Iowa 50036 515-432-6794 mike@cleavelandtool.com ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:31 AM PST US From: GRANSCOTT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 Dan did you read this month's 100LL article in AvConsumer? Interesting reading... Patrick Scott do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:10 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" Well, with injection you can lean that sucker out much more than with a carb. It would be interesting to run the numbers comparing that situation . . . TDT 40025 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Masys Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:19 PM Subject: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys 100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this week. It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an autogas STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on autogas, saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, with those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 octane: 0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, -A1B5*, -A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, -D1A5*, -E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, -H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of greed, where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a dollar. Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? -Dan Masys #40448 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:28 AM PST US From: GRANSCOTT@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 I get to fly behind the IO 540 in a C 182 going slowly and using a good engine monitor G-1000 the best I can do is 9 gallons per hour doing 105kts..I know the frame of the RV 10 is better suited but are they're any STC for fuel injected 540's? If you're considering going the auto fuel route make sure all the parts between the tank and engine will not react with the added materials in auto gas...alcohol's and dispersant's... Patrick do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:07 AM PST US From: "Tommy Norman" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tommy Norman" It is my understanding that these STCs were intended to use alcohol free fuel (i.e. no methanol or ethanol). This may be an issue since MTBE is being phased out and replaced with ethanol. http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/knopp_alcohol.html Tommy -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Masys Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 11:19 AM Subject: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys 100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this week. It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an autogas STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on autogas, saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, with those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 octane: 0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, -A1B5*, -A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, -D1A5*, -E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, -H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of greed, where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a dollar. Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? -Dan Masys #40448 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:28 AM PST US From: "Cal Hoffman" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Cal Hoffman" My experience with the O-540 has been that the 235 hp versions run well on auto fuel, but the 250hp and 260 hp versions tend to ping. Cal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Masys" Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:18 PM Subject: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 > --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > > 100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this week. It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an autogas STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on autogas, saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. > > Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, with those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 octane: > 0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, -A1B5*, > -A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, -D1A 5*, > -E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, -H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* > > I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of greed, where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a dollar. > > Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? > > -Dan Masys > #40448 > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:39 AM PST US From: "Brian Sponcil" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Brian Sponcil" I'm thinking it as well. Keep in mind however, that the choice in engine isn't the only factor in safely running auto-gas. For instance, the Cherokee 235 with the 0-540-B4B5 has the autogas STC whereas an Apache running the very same engines does not. The same can be said for the mooneys and comanches. Pull the engines out of those planes and put them into a cherokee 180 and you go from no autogas to autogas approved. According to Petersen, the tighter the cowl and the higher the performance, the harder it was to pass their tests. I guess in the case of the mooneys and comanches, they had problems with the fuel boiling in the carb. If I remember correctly, one of the tests was to heat the fuel tanks (seems sort of dangerous) to 110 degrees and then do a MaxPerformance climb all the way to 12,500. Any hiccups in performance (loss of power, fuel pressure, etc) and it failed the test. Does that mean if you fly conservatively, ie - don't do maximum performance climbs to 12,500, you won't have problems? I don't know. I think auto-gas is a possibility in the RV-10s, but someone is going to have to be the beta tester :-( -Brian #40497 N211BD Iowa City, IA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Masys" Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 11:18 AM Subject: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 > --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > > 100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this week. > It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an autogas > STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on autogas, > saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. > > Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, with > those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 octane: > 0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, > -A1B5*, > -A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, -D1A5*, > -E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, > -H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* > > I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a > carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of greed, > where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a > dollar. > > Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? > > -Dan Masys > #40448 > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:13 AM PST US From: "Bob Newman" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Newman" Part of my plan is flexibility in choices, I'm using an O-540-E4B5 in RV-10. -Bob Newman >>> dmasys@cox.net 4/27/2006 12:18:42 PM >>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys 100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this week. It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an autogas STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on autogas, saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, with those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 octane: 0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, -A1B5*, -A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, -D1A5*, -E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, -H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of greed, where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a dollar. Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? -Dan Masys #40448 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:30 AM PST US From: "John Gonzalez" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" Maybe time to start really considering something other than a Lycosaur! JG, #409 Do not archive >From: Dan Masys >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:18:42 +0000 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > >100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this week. >It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an autogas >STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on autogas, >saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. > >Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, with >those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 octane: >0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, >-A1B5*, >-A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, >-D1A5*, >-E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, >-H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* > >I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a >carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of greed, >where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a dollar. > >Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? > >-Dan Masys >#40448 > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:25 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" We need to show these guys how big the homebuilt market is. They've been ignoring it in favor of the OEMs . . . http://www.vaircraftengine.com/ http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=9f2a2c16-1451-479a-ad6 1-40eec3d4b353&Dynamic=1&Range=NOW&FromDate=04%2F24%2F2006&ToDate=04%2F2 7%2F2006&Category=%2Findex.cfm TDT 40025 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:44 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" Maybe time to start really considering something other than a Lycosaur! JG, #409 Do not archive >From: Dan Masys >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:18:42 +0000 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > >100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this week. >It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an autogas >STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on autogas, >saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. > >Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, with >those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 octane: >0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, >-A1B5*, >-A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, >-D1A5*, >-E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, >-H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* > >I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a >carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of greed, >where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a dollar. > >Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? > >-Dan Masys >#40448 > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:31 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Isn't this the Bombardier engine before they split off? Michael Sausen RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage Do Not Archive Recent RV-10 Build Activity -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 1:51 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" --> We need to show these guys how big the homebuilt market is. They've been ignoring it in favor of the OEMs . . . http://www.vaircraftengine.com/ http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=3D9f2a2c16-1451-479a-ad= 6 1-40eec3d4b353&Dynamic=3D1&Range=3DNOW&FromDate=3D04%2F24%2F2006&ToDate=3D= 04%2F2 7%2F2006&Category=3D%2Findex.cfm TDT 40025 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:44 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" Maybe time to start really considering something other than a Lycosaur! JG, #409 Do not archive >From: Dan Masys >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:18:42 +0000 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > >100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this week. >It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an autogas >STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on autogas, >saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. > >Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, with >those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 octane: >0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, >-A1B5*, >-A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, >-D1A5*, -E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, >-H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, >-H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* > >I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a >carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of greed, >where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a dollar. > >Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? > >-Dan Masys >#40448 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:17 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" Correct-a-mundo. I remember seeing the V Engines at Oshkosh 2003. And I thought avionics certification was slow and painful! TDT 40025 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 3:10 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 Isn't this the Bombardier engine before they split off? Michael Sausen RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage Do Not Archive Recent RV-10 Build Activity -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 1:51 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" --> We need to show these guys how big the homebuilt market is. They've been ignoring it in favor of the OEMs . . . http://www.vaircraftengine.com/ http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=3D9f2a2c16-1451-479a-ad= 6 1-40eec3d4b353&Dynamic=3D1&Range=3DNOW&FromDate=3D04%2F24%2F2006&ToDate=3D= 04%2F2 7%2F2006&Category=3D%2Findex.cfm TDT 40025 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:44 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" Maybe time to start really considering something other than a Lycosaur! JG, #409 Do not archive >From: Dan Masys >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:18:42 +0000 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > >100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this week. >It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an autogas >STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on autogas, >saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. > >Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, with >those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 octane: >0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, >-A1B5*, >-A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, >-D1A5*, -E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, >-H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, >-H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* > >I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a >carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of greed, >where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a dollar. > >Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? > >-Dan Masys >#40448 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D RV10-List Email Forum - more: bsp; HREF=3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic= s .com/Navigator?RV10-List =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D bsp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - bsp; HREF=3D"http://wiki.matronics.com">http://wiki.matronics.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D bsp; - List Contribution Web Site - bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. HREF=3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c= o ntribution =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:47 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear From: "Conti, Rick" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" Bob, I'm not sure I understand. I've never used a reamer and just realized I shouldn't use an air drill with a reamer. Maybe the hand wrench from my tap & die set. What under size hole did you drill before using the .311" reamer? Please explain the grinding of the shoulders at the reamer stem side to be able to pull up and through. Does any of this make sense without using a close tolerance bolt? Bill suggested using a .3125 reamer with a 5/16" close tolerance bolt. All of which sounds good. Thank You Rick Conti Senior Engineering Manager The Boeing Company office: 703 - 414 - 6141 blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134 -----Original Message----- From: Rob Kermanj [mailto:flysrv10@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:30 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: My 2 Cents on the Landing Gear --> RV10-List message posted by: "Rob Kermanj" I used the same reamer as you have purchased. I found it easier to insert the reamer from the button, chuck it and pull it through the hole. If you decide to do this, you may need to grind the blade shoulders at the reamer stem side to be able to pull up through. On 4/26/06, Conti, Rick wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" > > Whenever I start a new "kit", I review the instructions several times, > once to ensure I have the necessary tools and parts. The .311" drill > bit appeared to be a problem. I called Van's and received an > interesting answer: I was told a 5/16 bit would be okay. I haven't > installed the gear yet and after reading about loose landing gear I had > second thoughts. I received my .311" reamer from McMaster-Carr (thanks > for the info) yesterday. But is has occurred to me, that 5/16" would be > fine provided the bolt matched. Drilling with a 5/16" bit though the > leg and support would not cause a problem. The problem would be from an > undersized bolt. Would everyone agree 5/16" would be okay with a proper > (precise fit) bolt? > > Thank You > Rick Conti > Senior Engineering Manager > The Boeing Company > office: 703 - 414 - 6141 > blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134 > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:40 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 From: "Conti, Rick" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" I've never owned a plane with an auto-gas STC. How do you refuel the plane? I wouldn't image the wings would fit under the canopy of an Exxon station. Thank You Rick Conti Senior Engineering Manager The Boeing Company office: 703 - 414 - 6141 blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134 -----Original Message----- From: Bob Newman [mailto:rnewman@lutron.com] Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:32 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Newman" Part of my plan is flexibility in choices, I'm using an O-540-E4B5 in RV-10. -Bob Newman >>> dmasys@cox.net 4/27/2006 12:18:42 PM >>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys 100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this week. It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an autogas STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on autogas, saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, with those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 octane: 0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, -A1B5*, -A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, -D1A5*, -E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, -H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of greed, where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a dollar. Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? -Dan Masys #40448 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:59 PM PST US From: James Hein Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein You can use a pickup truck (remember those? They came before SUV's and are often seen free-range roaming around farms) with a fuel transfer tank in the back. Those tanks tend to hold a few hundred gallons. You will have to swipe your credit card a few times to fill up though (the pumps here in town stop at $75, and you have to start over again). Imagine, the luxury of your own fuel truck! -Jim do not archive the preceeding humor Conti, Rick wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" > >I've never owned a plane with an auto-gas STC. How do you refuel the >plane? I wouldn't image the wings would fit under the canopy of an >Exxon station. > >Thank You >Rick Conti >Senior Engineering Manager >The Boeing Company > office: 703 - 414 - 6141 >blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bob Newman [mailto:rnewman@lutron.com] >Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:32 PM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Newman" > >Part of my plan is flexibility in choices, I'm using an O-540-E4B5 in >RV-10. > >-Bob Newman > > > > >>>>dmasys@cox.net 4/27/2006 12:18:42 PM >>> >>>> >>>> >--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > >100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this >week. It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an >autogas STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on >autogas, saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. > >Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, >with those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 >octane: >0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, >-A1A5*, -A1B5*, >-A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, >-D1A5*, >-E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, >-H2A5D*, -H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* > >I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a >carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of >greed, where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up >a dollar. > >Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? > >-Dan Masys >#40448 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:14 PM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 Yep do not archive _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:10 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 Isn't this the Bombardier engine before they split off? Michael Sausen RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage Do Not Archive Recent RV-10 Build Activity -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 1:51 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" --> We need to show these guys how big the homebuilt market is. They've been ignoring it in favor of the OEMs . . . http://www.vaircraftengine.com/ http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=9f2a2c16-1451-479a-ad6 1-40eec3d4b353&Dynamic=1&Range=NOW&FromDate=04%2F24%2F2006&ToDate=04%2F2 7%2F2006&Category=%2Findex.cfm TDT 40025 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:44 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" Maybe time to start really considering something other than a Lycosaur! JG, #409 Do not archive >From: Dan Masys >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:18:42 +0000 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > >100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this week. >It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an autogas >STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on autogas, >saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. > >Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, with >those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 octane: >0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, >-A1B5*, >-A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, >-D1A5*, -E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, >-H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, >-H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* > >I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a >carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of greed, >where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a dollar. > >Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? > >-Dan Masys >#40448 > > ==================================== RV10-List Email Forum - more: bsp; HREF="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?RV10-List ==================================== bsp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - bsp; HREF="http://wiki.matronics.com">http://wiki.matronics.com ==================================== bsp; - List Contribution Web Site - bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. HREF="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution ==================================== ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:55 PM PST US From: LIKE2LOOP@aol.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: LIKE2LOOP@aol.com In a message dated 4/27/06, rick.conti@boeing.com writes: << I've never owned a plane with an auto-gas STC. How do you refuel the plane? >> Rick, My C-170 has an STC for auto gas. We get it at a local grass strip, self-serve pumps, Indiantown (X58). The only Boeing's that land there seem to be 6 Stearmans based there!!! Think general aviation. Steve Port St. Lucie, FL 772-475-5556 Sent from my Treo 600 do not archive ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:43 PM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" Fellow 4 doors down from me with a couple Taylor Craft has a fuel tank on a trailer. Seems to work well for him. Other than fuel in the hanger, always a hazard, not sure what the drawback would be? -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 1:22 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein You can use a pickup truck (remember those? They came before SUV's and are often seen free-range roaming around farms) with a fuel transfer tank in the back. Those tanks tend to hold a few hundred gallons. You will have to swipe your credit card a few times to fill up though (the pumps here in town stop at $75, and you have to start over again). Imagine, the luxury of your own fuel truck! -Jim do not archive the preceeding humor Conti, Rick wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" > >I've never owned a plane with an auto-gas STC. How do you refuel the >plane? I wouldn't image the wings would fit under the canopy of an >Exxon station. > >Thank You >Rick Conti >Senior Engineering Manager >The Boeing Company > office: 703 - 414 - 6141 >blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bob Newman [mailto:rnewman@lutron.com] >Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:32 PM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Newman" > >Part of my plan is flexibility in choices, I'm using an O-540-E4B5 in >RV-10. > >-Bob Newman > > > > >>>>dmasys@cox.net 4/27/2006 12:18:42 PM >>> >>>> >>>> >--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > >100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this >week. It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an >autogas STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours >on autogas, saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. > >Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, >with those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 >octane: >0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, >-A1A5*, -A1B5*, -A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, >-A4C5*, -A4D5*, -D1A5*, -E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, >-H2A5*, -H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, -H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* > >I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a >carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of >greed, where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes >up a dollar. > >Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? > >-Dan Masys >#40448 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:31 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen Unless you are attempting to keep the engine type certificated, STCs wouldn't matter. However, materials compatibility is likely to be a big issue. I know of a former Mooney owner who ran his O-360 on 91 octane mogas. The fuel attacked to the polysulfide (PRC) in the fuel tanks until it was a pink goo. I don't know if the polysulfides used today are more resistant than what Mooney used in the late '60s, but I'd be real concerned about affecting your tank sealant. Certain low wing planes such as the Mooney were unable to get STCs because of vapor issues, while others like the Cherokees had to change fuel pumps. Injection or carburetion makes little difference. Compression ratio is the issue, with 8.5 being about the limit for 91 octane, and probably 8.0 for 87 octane. Quoting GRANSCOTT@aol.com: > I get to fly behind the IO 540 in a C 182 going slowly and using a good > engine monitor G-1000 the best I can do is 9 gallons per hour doing > 105kts..I > know the frame of the RV 10 is better suited but are they're any STC > for fuel > injected 540's? If you're considering going the auto fuel route > make sure all > the parts between the tank and engine will not react with the added > materials > in auto gas...alcohol's and dispersant's... > > Patrick > > do not archive > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:05 PM PST US From: Eric Panning Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: Eric Panning ECi Titan IO-540 kit engine (~ 2007?) is supposed to be autofuel capable. This is partly because they are using a fuel spider with fixed orifice and not a fuel servo with some autogas sensitive components. Still they rec 100LL initial for valves. Note this system requires a return fuel line. I have built these fittings into my tanks just in case. Part of reason for return line is to return any vapor to tank. Autogas and ethanol autogas in particular has lower vapor pressure. Ethanol is also a good solvent for lots of things.... Deltahawk claims they sold out 2005 and 2006 production runs but I have never seen a builder site which makes me wonder if they really have that many out there. I saw one article that 2005 run was only two engines. A number of builders are looking at rotary engines as well. Eric ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:34 PM PST US From: GRANSCOTT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 In a message dated 4/27/06 5:52:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ericmpmail-rv10@yahoo.com writes: Deltahawk claims they sold out 2005 and 2006 production runs but I have never seen a builder site which makes me wonder if they really have that many out there. I know the person that's #20 on the list has yet to smell diesel in the morning...promised for over a year ago...hope they make it... P ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:20 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 From: "Chris Johnston" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris Johnston" Just a quick note that I think applies - FYI... this is a section from a discussion on the Subaru list - > The wings are wide open. Lower wing skins are not bonded on yet. I can > run any size return line. Why float type?What's so special about that? > The fuel pick up lines are in. They should stay. They are 3/8 in size. > I hope I don't sound like an idiot. > Gary Hi Gary, The capacitance fuel level senders require re-calibration for each type of fuel you use. So, if you use mogas most of the time, but from time to time need to put in 100LL, then the fuel level will not read correctly. The very simple float senders don't have this problem. Another alternative to the fuel return lines is to install a header tank. From what I've read on the net, this seems to be a popular option. -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Panning Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:42 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: Eric Panning ECi Titan IO-540 kit engine (~ 2007?) is supposed to be autofuel capable. This is partly because they are using a fuel spider with fixed orifice and not a fuel servo with some autogas sensitive components. Still they rec 100LL initial for valves. Note this system requires a return fuel line. I have built these fittings into my tanks just in case. Part of reason for return line is to return any vapor to tank. Autogas and ethanol autogas in particular has lower vapor pressure. Ethanol is also a good solvent for lots of things.... Deltahawk claims they sold out 2005 and 2006 production runs but I have never seen a builder site which makes me wonder if they really have that many out there. I saw one article that 2005 run was only two engines. A number of builders are looking at rotary engines as well. Eric ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:37 PM PST US From: Jay Brinkmeyer Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV Assembly Workshop --> RV10-List message posted by: Jay Brinkmeyer I took the EAA course before starting the building process. What I liked was learning what not to do and talking to other builders. I went in knowing next to nothing and came out knowing enough to be dangerous. Seriously, you will learn stuff if you keep your eyes and ears open. As for the value per dollar... I felt I got my money worth. Not everyone has the luxury of having a technical advisor at their beck and call. Those that say they didn't learn a thing - probably didn't because they must already know everything already. Flame away! Jay Do not archive > > As a prospective RV-10 builder, I have a question of this group: Have > any of you taken the EAA Sportair Workshop on RV Assembly, and if so, > how helpful was it? I've built an airplane before, but have not done a > lot of sheetmetal work, and my wife has only bucked a handful of rivets. > I can teach her, but wondered if this group recommends the workshops or > to just dive in and get started. ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:25 PM PST US From: "bob.kaufmann" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 I'm going rotary, should be able to burn 87 with out a problem, I did build in a return to left main tank and have begun the overhaul process. Total overhaul should cost me less than 1600 and that is everything. Bob K Finish kit and engine _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:41 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 Yep do not archive _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:10 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 Isn't this the Bombardier engine before they split off? Michael Sausen RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage Do Not Archive Recent RV-10 Build Activity -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 1:51 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" --> We need to show these guys how big the homebuilt market is. They've been ignoring it in favor of the OEMs . . . http://www.vaircraftengine.com/ http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=9f2a2c16-1451-479a-ad6 1-40eec3d4b353&Dynamic=1&Range=NOW&FromDate=04%2F24%2F2006&ToDate=04%2F2 7%2F2006&Category=%2Findex.cfm TDT 40025 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:44 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" Maybe time to start really considering something other than a Lycosaur! JG, #409 Do not archive >From: Dan Masys >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:18:42 +0000 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > >100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this week. >It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an autogas >STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on autogas, >saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. > >Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, with >those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 octane: >0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, >-A1B5*, >-A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, >-D1A5*, -E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, >-H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, >-H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* > >I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a >carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of greed, >where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a dollar. > >Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? > >-Dan Masys >#40448 > > ==================================== RV10-List Email Forum - more: bsp; HREF="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?RV10-List ==================================== bsp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - bsp; HREF="http://wiki.matronics.com">http://wiki.matronics.com ==================================== bsp; - List Contribution Web Site - bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. HREF="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution ==================================== ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:28 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Re: RV10-List: Extra fuel tanks --> RV10-List message posted by: What kind of speed and fuel burn do you get at these settings? Thanks Jim Gore > > From: LessDragProd@aol.com > Date: 2006/04/26 Wed PM 09:17:48 EDT > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Extra fuel tanks > > > How long did you want to sit? > At full throttle at 2100 RPM and 60 gallons, you can sit for 4 1/2 hours and > still have a half hour reserve. > > Jim Ayers > > In a message dated 04/26/2006 4:25:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > gorejr@bellsouth.net writes: > > --> RV10-List message posted by: > > Is it possible to add the 15 gallon extra fuel with the quickbuild wing? I > know alot of the fuel system is in place. Thanks! > Jim Gore RV-10 > Griffin GA > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:58 PM PST US From: "John Gonzalez" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" This looks like another interesting option, but it seems that Eggenfellner currently has the leg up on "V" with all the users and the engine mount and cowl aready figured out. Who is manufacturing the "V" engine itself? The huge company behind the Subaru engines and all their technology in the auto industry, plus all the money they have in R+D make it seem like a better bet. One concern of both of these is their reduction drives and the pulse forces placed on them according to their future competion, Wolf Aerospace. But glad to see that the momentum is gathering which will ensure more choices for us all. JG. 409 Do Not Archive >From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" >To: >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:51:00 -0400 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" > > >We need to show these guys how big the homebuilt market is. They've >been ignoring it in favor of the OEMs . . . > >http://www.vaircraftengine.com/ > >http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=9f2a2c16-1451-479a-ad6 >1-40eec3d4b353&Dynamic=1&Range=NOW&FromDate=04%2F24%2F2006&ToDate=04%2F2 >7%2F2006&Category=%2Findex.cfm > > TDT >40025 > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez >Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:44 PM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" > > >Maybe time to start really considering something other than a Lycosaur! > >JG, #409 > >Do not archive > > > >From: Dan Masys > >To: rv10-list@matronics.com > >Subject: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 > >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:18:42 +0000 > > > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > > > >100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this >week. > >It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an >autogas > >STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on >autogas, > >saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. > > > >Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, >with > >those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 >octane: > >0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, >-A1A5*, > >-A1B5*, > >-A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, > >-D1A5*, > >-E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, >-H2A5D*, > >-H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* > > > >I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a > >carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of >greed, > >where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a >dollar. > > > >Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? > > > >-Dan Masys > >#40448 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:46 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 From: "McGANN, Ron" A question for Ray Doerr, would you buy another auto engine conversion (eg Eggenfelner)? >From someone who has been there, I am sure the list would value your opinion. cheers, Ron -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Gonzalez Sent: Friday, 28 April 2006 10:50 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" This looks like another interesting option, but it seems that Eggenfellner currently has the leg up on "V" with all the users and the engine mount and cowl aready figured out. Who is manufacturing the "V" engine itself? The huge company behind the Subaru engines and all their technology in the auto industry, plus all the money they have in R+D make it seem like a better bet. One concern of both of these is their reduction drives and the pulse forces placed on them according to their future competion, Wolf Aerospace. But glad to see that the momentum is gathering which will ensure more choices for us all. JG. 409 Do Not Archive >From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" >To: >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:51:00 -0400 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" > > >We need to show these guys how big the homebuilt market is. They've >been ignoring it in favor of the OEMs . . . > >http://www.vaircraftengine.com/ > >http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=3D9f2a2c16-1451-479a-a= d6 >1-40eec3d4b353&Dynamic=3D1&Range=3DNOW&FromDate=3D04%2F24%2F2006&ToDate=3D= 04%2F2 >7%2F2006&Category=3D%2Findex.cfm > > TDT >40025 > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez >Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:44 PM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" > > >Maybe time to start really considering something other than a Lycosaur! > >JG, #409 > >Do not archive > > > >From: Dan Masys > >To: rv10-list@matronics.com > >Subject: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 > >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:18:42 +0000 > > > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > > > >100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this >week. > >It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an >autogas > >STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on >autogas, > >saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. > > > >Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, >with > >those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 >octane: > >0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, >-A1A5*, > >-A1B5*, > >-A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, > >-D1A5*, > >-E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, >-H2A5D*, > >-H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* > > > >I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a > >carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of >greed, > >where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a >dollar. > > > >Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? > > > >-Dan Masys > >#40448 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:23 PM PST US From: Tim Lewis Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 (IO-540) --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Lewis > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" > > I've never owned a plane with an auto-gas STC. How do you refuel the > plane? I wouldn't image the wings would fit under the canopy of an > Exxon station. I use 93 octane in my RV-6A (O-360, 8.5/1 compression). I use one tank for avgas only, the other for auto gas and/or avgas. To fuel at the airport I use five gallon metal fuel cans with the spring loaded "safety nozzle." Manassas airport requires these nozzles for those of us who fuel our plans from fuel cans. Grounding wires and conductive funnels are also required at Manassas. I've been able to force the RV-6A to vapor lock on autogas, but it hasn't been a problem unless I set out to overheat the fuel (hot day, fly hard, land hot, long taxi, then try immediate takeoff). I have had the autogas ice up on me twice during winter flights. I think it happened because I had a Fram G3 paper fuel filter between the fuel tank and the fuel selector. I've spoken to a couple of experts in the field, who tell me the paper filters are susceptible to freezing if there's any water in the fuel. I'm replacing the Fram G3s with the Purolator Pro 806, which uses a nylon filter. IO-540 and auto gas: I spent quite a while talking to Dan from Airflow Performance (the folks who make the fuel pump that Van sells for IO-540 powered RV-10s) about autogas in the Bendix injection system. Dan used to be Bendix's project engineer on the Bendix RS and RSA fuel injection systems (that's the one on the IO-540). Don told me there's no materials compatability problem with using auto gas in the Bendix system, but you don't want to leave autogas sitting in the servo for a long time because when auto gas evaporates it'll leave "varnish" deposits. Dan said many people use auto gas in the Bendix injected engines, but he pointed out that vapor lock is a concern when using auto gas in an injected engine. I talked to Mr Petersen of the famous Petersen STC about injected engines and auto gas. He told me he'd never been able to get an injected installation to pass all the vapor lock tests, thus the lack of any Petersen STCs for the IO-XXX engines. I plan to try auto gas in my RV-10 (IO-540). To try to head off vapor lock issues I'll have no gascolator, fire sleeved fuel lines with lines kept as short as possible, and probably blast cooling of the engine driven fuel pump. And careful flight testing over an airport with one tank full of good old av ga$. Tim -- Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA) RV-6A N47TD -- 830 hrs RV-10 #40059 under construction Conti, Rick wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" > > I've never owned a plane with an auto-gas STC. How do you refuel the > plane? I wouldn't image the wings would fit under the canopy of an > Exxon station. > > Thank You > Rick Conti > Senior Engineering Manager > The Boeing Company > office: 703 - 414 - 6141 > blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Newman [mailto:rnewman@lutron.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:32 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Newman" > > Part of my plan is flexibility in choices, I'm using an O-540-E4B5 in > RV-10. > > -Bob Newman > > > > >>>>dmasys@cox.net 4/27/2006 12:18:42 PM >>> > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys > > 100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this > week. It is now at $5 per gallon. This got me thinking again about an > autogas STC. Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on > autogas, saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years. > > Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, > with those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 > octane: > 0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, > -A1A5*, -A1B5*, > -A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, > -D1A5*, > -E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, > -H2A5D*, -H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5* > > I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a > carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of > greed, where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up > a dollar. > > Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur? > > -Dan Masys > #40448 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:54 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen Umm, err, how do I put this? 100LL is 7.0 RVP. Most summer mogas is 7.6-9.0 RVP. Adding ethanol raises the RVP about 1 point. The higher the RVP the more hazard of vapor lock. That means mogas with ethanol has a higher vapor pressure. Even if you engine is fine with the fuel, how are you going to keep it in the wet wing tanks after it softens the PRC? Are you going to want to reseal those tanks every few years? Eric Panning wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Eric Panning > > ECi Titan IO-540 kit engine (~ 2007?) is supposed to > be autofuel capable. This is partly because they are > using a fuel spider with fixed orifice and not a fuel > servo with some autogas sensitive components. Still > they rec 100LL initial for valves. Note this system > requires a return fuel line. I have built these > fittings into my tanks just in case. Part of reason > for return line is to return any vapor to tank. > Autogas and ethanol autogas in particular has lower > vapor pressure. Ethanol is also a good solvent for > lots of things.... > > Deltahawk claims they sold out 2005 and 2006 > production runs but I have never seen a builder site > which makes me wonder if they really have that many > out there. I saw one article that 2005 run was only > two engines. > > A number of builders are looking at rotary engines as > well. > > Eric > > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:52 PM PST US From: LessDragProd@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Extra fuel tanks Hi Jim, Just differential numbers for now, since my customers RV-10 doesn't have all of the fairing on and it isn't painted yet. This numbers were obtained at 8,000' density altitude at full throttle. 2500 RPM 20 gph 2300 RPM 15 gph +1 knot faster than 2500 RPM 2100 RPM 12 gph -6 knots slower than 2500 RPM Regards, Jim Ayers In a message dated 04/27/2006 6:15:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gorejr@bellsouth.net writes: --> RV10-List message posted by: What kind of speed and fuel burn do you get at these settings? Thanks Jim Gore ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:59 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 From: "John W. Cox" --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Excellent presentation on the clear risk of Mogas rather than Avgas. It took me two years of school to learn the narrow perspective of why it carries risks. Here is a dissertation from the Lancair group today on the same logic. "Scott, That output for the motorcycle is really not very "exciting" compared to an aircraft engine. Correct it out for RPM and the Hp/cubic inch is around .51. If you take away the liquid cooling, and run the heads at 380dF rather than 240dF, the octane requirement would increase substantially. George """ Hmmmmm.... My Honda VTX motorcycle, 110 ci (55 ci/cyl) comes close to my 320 (80 ci/cyl). It uses a 9:1 compression ratio, 4" bore x 4.4" stroke, 3 valves, 3d mapped fuel injection (MAP, OAT, RPM, etc.) thru 12-hole electronic injectors, 2 plugs/cyl, EI, liquid cooled (uh, well that's quite different), etc. This engine produces 95 HP and 115 ft/lb at the rear wheel thru a less than efficient a drive shaft at about 4500-5000 rpm. It requires 86 octane auto gas." The above discussion was between George Braly of GAMI and a well known Lancair driver. Comparison was the shallow logic of a water-cooled motorcycle engine being similar to a six banger aircraft engine and the consequence with an air-cooled engine. The Reid Vapor Pressure index and the official position by Continental against Mogas in aviation has been clearly documented. Price of gas seems to bring out foolish discussion on a periodic basis. When an auto engine fails, you just pullover. I can find the supporting documents for the foolishness of the STC if needed. John Cox - $00.02 Do not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:29 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autogas for 540 --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen Umm, err, how do I put this? 100LL is 7.0 RVP. Most summer mogas is 7.6-9.0 RVP. Adding ethanol raises the RVP about 1 point. The higher the RVP the more hazard of vapor lock. That means mogas with ethanol has a higher vapor pressure. Even if you engine is fine with the fuel, how are you going to keep it in the wet wing tanks after it softens the PRC? Are you going to want to reseal those tanks every few years? Eric Panning wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Eric Panning > > ECi Titan IO-540 kit engine (~ 2007?) is supposed to > be autofuel capable. This is partly because they are > using a fuel spider with fixed orifice and not a fuel > servo with some autogas sensitive components. Still > they rec 100LL initial for valves. Note this system > requires a return fuel line. I have built these > fittings into my tanks just in case. Part of reason > for return line is to return any vapor to tank. > Autogas and ethanol autogas in particular has lower > vapor pressure. Ethanol is also a good solvent for > lots of things.... > > Deltahawk claims they sold out 2005 and 2006 > production runs but I have never seen a builder site > which makes me wonder if they really have that many > out there. I saw one article that 2005 run was only > two engines. > > A number of builders are looking at rotary engines as > well. > > Eric > > ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:57 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Extra fuel tanks From: "John W. Cox" Jim, lets here the airspeed and MP at 8,000 DA, 2500 RPM, 20 gph, 3 blade MT and a Lyco at 260hp. My version was missing your answer to Jim Gore's request for SPEED data. John Cox ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LessDragProd@aol.com Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:55 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Extra fuel tanks Hi Jim, Just differential numbers for now, since my customers RV-10 doesn't have all of the fairing on and it isn't painted yet. This numbers were obtained at 8,000' density altitude at full throttle. 2500 RPM 20 gph 2300 RPM 15 gph +1 knot faster than 2500 RPM 2100 RPM 12 gph -6 knots slower than 2500 RPM Regards, Jim Ayers In a message dated 04/27/2006 6:15:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gorejr@bellsouth.net writes: --> RV10-List message posted by: =09 What kind of speed and fuel burn do you get at these settings? Thanks Jim Gore ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:14 PM PST US From: David Maib Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV Assembly Workshop --> RV10-List message posted by: David Maib My wife and I just got back from Eugene, OR where we spent ten days with Wally Anderson and his folks at Synergy Air. We took the Fundamentals of Building class and then the empennage building class. Neither of us had any skills or knowledge about building an airplane. I have been active in maintaining a Bonanza I own with a mechanic partner for a few years, but that is about it. We left with the tail kit completed and a good amount of basic knowledge and confidence that we will be able to complete the RV-10 QB. Wally and his crew are great and the trip was well worth the time and money. David and Mary Maib On Apr 27, 2006, at 5:32 PM, Jay Brinkmeyer wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Jay Brinkmeyer > > > I took the EAA course before starting the building process. What I > liked was > learning what not to do and talking to other builders. > > I went in knowing next to nothing and came out knowing enough to be > dangerous. > Seriously, you will learn stuff if you keep your eyes and ears > open. As for the > value per dollar... I felt I got my money worth. Not everyone has > the luxury of > having a technical advisor at their beck and call. > > Those that say they didn't learn a thing - probably didn't because > they must > already know everything already. Flame away! > > Jay > > Do not archive >> >> As a prospective RV-10 builder, I have a question of this group: >> Have >> any of you taken the EAA Sportair Workshop on RV Assembly, and if so, >> how helpful was it? I've built an airplane before, but have not >> done a >> lot of sheetmetal work, and my wife has only bucked a handful of > rivets. >> I can teach her, but wondered if this group recommends the >> workshops or >> to just dive in and get started. > > __________________________________________________ > >