Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:51 AM - Re: covers (Russell Daves)
2. 04:47 AM - instrument sub-panel, fwd fuse and cabin cover questions (Wayne Edgerton)
3. 04:53 AM - Re: Quick Build (QB) Wings (Wayne Edgerton)
4. 06:29 AM - Re: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? (James K Hovis)
5. 06:29 AM - Re: instrument sub-panel, fwd fuse and cabin cover questions (Jesse Saint)
6. 06:45 AM - Re: instrument sub-panel, fwd fuse and cabin cover questions (John W. Cox)
7. 07:36 AM - Overhead Console Vent Inlet (Tim Olson)
8. 08:19 AM - Re: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? (Pascal)
9. 08:33 AM - Re: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? (GRANSCOTT@aol.com)
10. 08:47 AM - Re: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? (Gary Specketer)
11. 09:22 AM - Re: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? (Tim Olson)
12. 10:37 AM - Re: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? (JSMcGrew@aol.com)
13. 10:37 AM - Re: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? (John Jessen)
14. 10:45 AM - Re: Overhead Console Vent Inlet (Chris Johnston)
15. 11:18 AM - Hours to complete an RV-10 (Belue, Kevin)
16. 11:18 AM - Re: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? (Tim Olson)
17. 11:32 AM - time to build (Bob Newman)
18. 11:52 AM - Re: Hours to complete an RV-10 (Rene Felker)
19. 11:55 AM - Re: Overhead Console Vent Inlet (Rick)
20. 12:10 PM - Re: time to build (Conti, Rick)
21. 12:31 PM - Re: instrument sub-panel, fwd fuse and cabin cover (Rick)
22. 01:14 PM - Re: time to build (Bob Newman)
23. 03:49 PM - Re: instrument sub-panel and electrical (Deems Davis)
24. 03:49 PM - Wings/Duckworks lights. (Fred Williams, M.D.)
25. 08:35 PM - Tony's Overhead Console Vent Inlet (GenGrumpy@aol.com)
26. 08:49 PM - Re: Tony's Overhead Console Vent Inlet (Kelly McMullen)
Message 1
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I got the wire cover from Van's and was REAL disappointed in it to the
point I decided to design my own. I got built covers to go over the
entire side from the front seat up under the panel to the next upright
(left and right). Bent the top over at a 90 degree angle and attached
to the top, bottom and front upright with nutplates I installed. My
wife who did the interior covered it and put in map pockets. As soon as
my DAR does my sign off and I button the -10 up for first flight I will
take some pictures and post.
Russ
N710RV - Hopefullying first flight within the next few days.
----- Original Message -----
From: David McNeill
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 9:25 PM
Subject: RV10-List: covers
In section 35 of the plans, there is a F-1042G-R and -L but below
those "wire covers" is a rectangular area where most of my wiring
appears. Does Van's supply or do we just fabricate?
Message 2
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| Subject: | instrument sub-panel, fwd fuse and cabin cover questions |
John,
I am having Stein's group build my panel and they will be using the
modular type panel like the photos that are attached. Apparently it is a
very flexible unit, depending on what you want. The pictures shows it as
already being cut but they obviously cut it to whatever you need. It's
also, I believe, about 2" longer than the panel from Van's, allowing a
little more room to fit stuff in. I like the idea that I will be able to
take section apart to get at the equipment.
Wayne Edgerton #40336
working on the baffling baffles
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Quick Build (QB) Wings |
I just received from Van's a quick build type flow chart, I don't have
it here at home, it's at the hangar. I didn't study it in detail but I
believe with my quick perusal that it showed what you have to do and
what's already been done. If you haven't received one I would suggest
you give Van's a call.
Wayne Edgerton #40336
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? |
Pascal,
Thanks for the kind words. As stated before, I owned an AA-1A for nearly
ten years, so as far as the sustaining costs of ownership I know what it
takes. Holding a repairman's cert for my own airplane is a real benefit to
me too. And being a past part of the airport board for H-88, only about 5
miles from the house, I can deal with those issues too. The desire for
building has been there for quite awhile (somewhat simmered while I actually
owned an airplane) and now that the rug rats are older (can actually buck a
few rivets) and I'm seriously missing being able to go to the airport and
pull out MY airplane anytime I want. Learning how to build an airplane was
one reason I went to college for an AE degree (boy was I in for a shock!).
And the dear wife does like to fly. The first time I took her for a ride, I
ran a C-172 off the side of an ice-covered runway while taxiing for take off
and it didn't scare her off (wasn't serious, just got a wheel of the runway
edge and stuck in a snow/slush bank). Anyway, if I have a reasonable
assurance that what money I put into an airplane I can get back out if I
sell it (and as an added benefit get enough to build a SECOND ship), it'll
help seal the deal. I figure $100K - $125K at least. If you figure $125 /hr
(not a Cessna figure mind you...) at 1250 hrs your labor is "worth" around
$156K. So with $125K in materials and equipment a fairly well equipped -10
could be "worth" $280K or so. Put in a $60K "amateur built" knock-down
factor, you get to that $220K asking price I've seen. Still not bad!
JKH
On 7/13/06, Pascal <pascalreid@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> I see you questions are focused on resale. I have a few for you however
> (but there are hundreds of questions I assume you have reviewed before
> reaching the finacial piece)
> - Do you have a strong desire to build a plane? 1250 or so hours of your
> life is a lot of time to be spending for good resale value
> - Does the finance minister like to fly- will she look forward to going on
> trips that take too long to get to by auto?
> - Do you understand that the price to build the plane is only the start of
> the finances you'll be spending (Taxes, hangar, maintenance (oil, etc) that
> can add up to 10% yearly.
>
> With that said, I have not started the building but I have a stronger
> desire to build the plane than to fly it and one day will be ready to sell
> it for another reason. I have no doubt I'll get my time and money back when
> the plane is sold. Simply put my CFO supports the RV-10 because she knows I
> love to build and have spent 7 years planning and saving for a kit plane.
> She also really wants to take trips we simply can not go on due to distance
> and time to get there, those two and not the resale works for me, if your
> answer to the three questions is "yes" and your wife understands the
> implication of your time building, the resale value should be an easy sale
> for you. Just don't get caught up with the money and forget why your
> building the plane to start with- unless of course it is as an investment
> with hopes of making money on your labor and not for the pleasure it will
> bring.
>
> Best of success with your propostion to the finance minister
>
> Pascal
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* James K Hovis <james.k.hovis@gmail.com>
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:28 AM
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's?
>
>
> As noted before I've been lurking absorbing the material before I
> actually make the plunge and get a RV-10 kit. One question I'd like to post
> to you here is what you think the relative value for a completed RV-10 would
> be if one was to sell their aircraft on the open market? I know that type of
> question would probably lead to many different answers since each airplane
> built is a little different from the next based on builder preferences and
> such. For example, one guy could build a strictly VFR machine while his
> buddy a few hangers away has a hard IFR capable machine. What I'm thinking
> is a moderate to high hp engine (235 to 260 hp) and probably light duty IFR
> capable ( i.e. basic gauges with maybe one or two EFIS displays and engine
> monitor). If I can reasonably assure the household finance minister that I
> can get a good return on my investment, it might sway her towards my
> thinking. I've seen one RV-10 offered for $220,000 and a partially finished
> a/c for $175,000. I'd assume there hasn't been many sold since finished
> birds haven't been flying long, but any info from the list is helpful.
>
> Thanks.
>
> James K. Hovis
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | instrument sub-panel, fwd fuse and cabin cover questions |
Very nice! Cost?
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
HYPERLINK "mailto:jesse@itecusa.org"jesse@itecusa.org
HYPERLINK "http://www.itecusa.org"www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Edgerton
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 7:42 AM
John,
I am having Stein's group build my panel and they will be using the modular
type panel like the photos that are attached. Apparently it is a very
flexible unit, depending on what you want. The pictures shows it as already
being cut but they obviously cut it to whatever you need. It's also, I
believe, about 2" longer than the panel from Van's, allowing a little more
room to fit stuff in. I like the idea that I will be able to take section
apart to get at the equipment.
Wayne Edgerton #40336
working on the baffling baffles
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
--
Message 6
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| Subject: | instrument sub-panel, fwd fuse and cabin cover questions |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
A truly breath-taking example of quality construction, excellent
aesthetics, improved function and the best serviceability of any RV-10
panel yet.
Your's give's Jim Hergert's N6XE panel a major run for its money. Jim's
is my benchmark for High Score (as Randy, Tim, Deems and others already
know). You have raised the bar and hopefully others will take the
challenge. It is great to see a three dimensional approach to leave the
two dimensional panels on the birds of the past. The pictures are
worthy of archive and further study.
Congrats Wayne!
Did you do the fabrication and send it to Stein or is this his work as
well?
John - $00.02
Do not Archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
Edgerton
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 4:42 AM
questions
John,
I am having Stein's group build my panel and they will be using the
modular type panel like the photos that are attached. Apparently it is a
very flexible unit, depending on what you want. The pictures shows it as
already being cut but they obviously cut it to whatever you need. It's
also, I believe, about 2" longer than the panel from Van's, allowing a
little more room to fit stuff in. I like the idea that I will be able to
take section apart to get at the equipment.
Wayne Edgerton #40336
working on the baffling baffles
Message 7
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| Subject: | Overhead Console Vent Inlet |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Ed Hayden, who had his canopy at SNF for display at Tony
Sustare's booth for the overhead console, sent me some
photos to post. The overhead console is pressurized via
a tail inlet scoop, and Tony has that completed now. Ed
also has A/C installed in his tail, that works with the
vents. Should be impressive to see when he's flying.
Here is a link to the Mod's page where I stuck everything.
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/mods/index.html
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? |
This may be personal, but I don't see building a model or anything else
I do for education, edification and enjoyment as being "billable time".
Building a large project is going to be a significantly larger
undertaking financially and time wise but I'm not building this project
as a "professional" I am building for the purpose of what this
"experimental" class was designed for. When I state " I have no doubt
I'll get my time and money back when the plane is sold" I am really
saying "the enjoyment building, teaching my daughter about engineering
and flying, and the memories we will have flying everywhere will make up
for any costs associated with the RV-10" If I get back what I put into
it (currently expected 125K) I will have come out ahead in the end. I am
not looking to make money on my plane, assuming I even sold it in the
next 20 years, I'm looking to enjoy MY work and talking to others about
how to "tweak it".
In the end I agree with you Linn, this is about the journey not the
destination to a hopeful pot of gold.
Thanks!
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: linn Walters
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's?
Reply not necessarily aimed at Pascal!
Pascal wrote:
I see you questions are focused on resale. I have a few for you
however (but there are hundreds of questions I assume you have reviewed
before reaching the finacial piece)
- Do you have a strong desire to build a plane? 1250 or so hours of
your life is a lot of time to be spending for good resale value
- Does the finance minister like to fly- will she look forward to
going on trips that take too long to get to by auto?
- Do you understand that the price to build the plane is only the
start of the finances you'll be spending (Taxes, hangar, maintenance
(oil, etc) that can add up to 10% yearly.
With that said, I have not started the building but I have a
stronger desire to build the plane than to fly it and one day will be
ready to sell it for another reason. I have no doubt I'll get my time
and money back when the plane is sold.
Initially this may be so, but as the -10 becomes more available you'll
be hard pressed to get value for your labor and maybe not the money
you've spent. I had a small business brokering airplanes, and there are
two kinds of folks out there. There are owners that are selling a 'gold
bar' and buyers looking for a 'lead bar'. Very rarely are the two folks
close to reality. There are those that will pay a nice price for a
homebuilt because they have more money than time ..... but as the market
sees more airplanes for sale then the competition for buyers heats up
and sales prices fall. Profit (or breaking even) shouldn't be a part of
the decision to build any homebuilt. Satisfaction and the ability to
legally 'tweak' your pride and joy to improve it's looks, speed, or
efficiency go a long way.
Linn
Simply put my CFO supports the RV-10 because she knows I love to
build and have spent 7 years planning and saving for a kit plane. She
also really wants to take trips we simply can not go on due to distance
and time to get there, those two and not the resale works for me, if
your answer to the three questions is "yes" and your wife understands
the implication of your time building, the resale value should be an
easy sale for you. Just don't get caught up with the money and forget
why your building the plane to start with- unless of course it is as an
investment with hopes of making money on your labor and not for the
pleasure it will bring.
Best of success with your propostion to the finance minister
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: James K Hovis
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:28 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's?
As noted before I've been lurking absorbing the material before I
actually make the plunge and get a RV-10 kit. One question I'd like to
post to you here is what you think the relative value for a completed
RV-10 would be if one was to sell their aircraft on the open market? I
know that type of question would probably lead to many different answers
since each airplane built is a little different from the next based on
builder preferences and such. For example, one guy could build a
strictly VFR machine while his buddy a few hangers away has a hard IFR
capable machine. What I'm thinking is a moderate to high hp engine (235
to 260 hp) and probably light duty IFR capable ( i.e. basic gauges with
maybe one or two EFIS displays and engine monitor). If I can reasonably
assure the household finance minister that I can get a good return on my
investment, it might sway her towards my thinking. I've seen one RV-10
offered for $220,000 and a partially finished a/c for $175,000. I'd
assume there hasn't been many sold since finished birds haven't been
flying long, but any info from the list is helpful.
Thanks.
James K. Hovis
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? |
In a message dated 7/13/06 3:30:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jjessen@rcn.com writes:
Or, just take her down to a Cirrus dealer and show her the price tag.
a fellow around the corner from us has a Cirrus 22, I believe he said
he's tied up about $370k, our CAP C 182 with a G 1000 cost in the $385k
area...but it's got a bunch of extra's one would not normally order...dual audio
panel, SAT phone etc...
Patrick
Message 10
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| Subject: | Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? |
I built a Glasair III in 1990 for about $100,000. I flew it for 850
hours
over 15 years and sold it for $125,000. I think that I got a great deal
on
the return on my investment. I too felt the labor is not billable. It
is
my hobby, no fisherman or golfer that is not professional figures in his
time in the equation. Build and enjoy, if you don't like the building,
go
buy a factory built and fly tomorrow. Building can be very relaxing,
gratifying and enjoyable, a great hobby. This is my 4th one.
Gary
40274
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 10:19 AM
This may be personal, but I don't see building a model or anything else
I do
for education, edification and enjoyment as being "billable time".
Building
a large project is going to be a significantly larger undertaking
financially and time wise but I'm not building this project as a
"professional" I am building for the purpose of what this "experimental"
class was designed for. When I state " I have no doubt I'll get my time
and
money back when the plane is sold" I am really saying "the enjoyment
building, teaching my daughter about engineering and flying, and the
memories we will have flying everywhere will make up for any costs
associated with the RV-10" If I get back what I put into it (currently
expected 125K) I will have come out ahead in the end. I am not looking
to
make money on my plane, assuming I even sold it in the next 20 years,
I'm
looking to enjoy MY work and talking to others about how to "tweak it".
In the end I agree with you Linn, this is about the journey not the
destination to a hopeful pot of gold.
Thanks!
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 10:15 PM
Reply not necessarily aimed at Pascal!
Pascal wrote:
I see you questions are focused on resale. I have a few for you however
(but
there are hundreds of questions I assume you have reviewed before
reaching
the finacial piece)
- Do you have a strong desire to build a plane? 1250 or so hours of your
life is a lot of time to be spending for good resale value
- Does the finance minister like to fly- will she look forward to going
on
trips that take too long to get to by auto?
- Do you understand that the price to build the plane is only the start
of
the finances you'll be spending (Taxes, hangar, maintenance (oil, etc)
that
can add up to 10% yearly.
With that said, I have not started the building but I have a stronger
desire
to build the plane than to fly it and one day will be ready to sell it
for
another reason. I have no doubt I'll get my time and money back when the
plane is sold.
Initially this may be so, but as the -10 becomes more available you'll
be
hard pressed to get value for your labor and maybe not the money you've
spent. I had a small business brokering airplanes, and there are two
kinds
of folks out there. There are owners that are selling a 'gold bar' and
buyers looking for a 'lead bar'. Very rarely are the two folks close to
reality. There are those that will pay a nice price for a homebuilt
because
they have more money than time ..... but as the market sees more
airplanes
for sale then the competition for buyers heats up and sales prices fall.
Profit (or breaking even) shouldn't be a part of the decision to build
any
homebuilt. Satisfaction and the ability to legally 'tweak' your pride
and
joy to improve it's looks, speed, or efficiency go a long way.
Linn
Simply put my CFO supports the RV-10 because she knows I love to build
and
have spent 7 years planning and saving for a kit plane. She also really
wants to take trips we simply can not go on due to distance and time to
get
there, those two and not the resale works for me, if your answer to the
three questions is "yes" and your wife understands the implication of
your
time building, the resale value should be an easy sale for you. Just
don't
get caught up with the money and forget why your building the plane to
start
with- unless of course it is as an investment with hopes of making money
on
your labor and not for the pleasure it will bring.
Best of success with your propostion to the finance minister
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:28 AM
As noted before I've been lurking absorbing the material before I
actually
make the plunge and get a RV-10 kit. One question I'd like to post to
you
here is what you think the relative value for a completed RV-10 would be
if
one was to sell their aircraft on the open market? I know that type of
question would probably lead to many different answers since each
airplane
built is a little different from the next based on builder preferences
and
such. For example, one guy could build a strictly VFR machine while his
buddy a few hangers away has a hard IFR capable machine. What I'm
thinking
is a moderate to high hp engine (235 to 260 hp) and probably light duty
IFR
capable ( i.e. basic gauges with maybe one or two EFIS displays and
engine
monitor). If I can reasonably assure the household finance minister that
I
can get a good return on my investment, it might sway her towards my
thinking. I've seen one RV-10 offered for $220,000 and a partially
finished
a/c for $175,000. I'd assume there hasn't been many sold since finished
birds haven't been flying long, but any info from the list is helpful.
Thanks.
James K. Hovis
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
That a great attitude about it Pascal. When it comes to the
future outlook of aviation and plane prices, I tend to think
of myself as a realist. (Note: "Pessimist" is the word
an optimist uses to describe a realist) ;) In my opinion,
with the looming issues ahead:
* Declining pilot population (soon to become more rapid due to
the end of the boomers)
* Increase in old plane sales due to removal of boomers from
the flying population
* Drastic increases in fuel costs
* Increase in regulation and restriction of aviation (i.e. TFR /
ADIZ propogation and general public security fears)
* Increases in insurance rates
* Limited or uncertain future of 100LL
* The almost complete loss of the concept of "personal responsibility"
causing huge lawsuit payouts in aviation.
* Economic concerns of the US Economy, which may be set off by a
drop in the housing market, forcing sales of "toys" like planes.
I personally feel that we're probably living a limited-timed
charmed lifestyle and that the days probably aren't that far away
that aviation will be very hard to both get into and stay in.
We all need to just stop and fully appreciate the time we have with
our health and our aircraft, that will allow us, for this possibly
short time, to have experiences that many people will never get.
To give our families memories that they may never have the opportunity
to pass on to their children. To build up many stories of the
"days when you used to be able to fly your own airplane" that you
can tell your grandkids.
I have done a fairly good financial analysis of the costs of flying
and maintaining my RV-10. It did cost me a good chunk of change
to build, but I have that all paid off now. Surprisingly, I am
finding that after being completed....the mere cost of operation
has a definitely larger impact on my savings growth than aviation
did a few years ago. The RV-10 is fast and efficient, and
"reasonable" to maintain. It is not, however, inexpensive to fly
and own. This is not the fault of the company, the plane,
the avionics I bought, or anything like that. It's the insurance,
the fuel, the oil, the hanger (not for me but for some people),
and those types of things that will keep people from racking
up thousands of hours on the RV-10's.
So when those other Cessna's/Piper's/Beeches, and all those other
old planes start to be dumped on the market at a faster rate,
due to the above concerns, I fully expect the value of my RV-10
to drop along with the market. Depending on what natural,
man-made, legislative, or economic disaster falls on us, we
could literally see our airplanes become nearly worthless almost
overnight. So building and planning for resale value being
equal or higher probably isn't the way to view it. With luck,
all of those above things will prove false, and our values will
climb, our costs will drop, and we'll be able to some day
sell our RV-10's at 125-150% of our initial costs, for the
new RV-25 kits shipping starting in 2030....but I just wouldn't
plan it that way. A good and applicable quote to our entire
building and flying experience is this one by Albert Einstein:
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The
important thing is not to stop questioning.
Cheers,
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Pascal wrote:
> This may be personal, but I don't see building a model or anything else
> I do for education, edification and enjoyment as being "billable time".
> Building a large project is going to be a significantly larger
> undertaking financially and time wise but I'm not building this project
> as a "professional" I am building for the purpose of what this
> "experimental" class was designed for. When I state " I have no doubt
> I'll get my time and money back when the plane is sold" I am really
> saying "the enjoyment building, teaching my daughter about engineering
> and flying, and the memories we will have flying everywhere will make up
> for any costs associated with the RV-10" If I get back what I put into
> it (currently expected 125K) I will have come out ahead in the end. I am
> not looking to make money on my plane, assuming I even sold it in the
> next 20 years, I'm looking to enjoy MY work and talking to others about
> how to "tweak it".
> In the end I agree with you Linn, this is about the journey not the
> destination to a hopeful pot of gold.
> Thanks!
> Pascal
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* linn Walters <mailto:pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 13, 2006 10:15 PM
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's?
>
> Reply not necessarily aimed at Pascal!
>
> Pascal wrote:
>> I see you questions are focused on resale. I have a few for you
>> however (but there are hundreds of questions I assume you have
>> reviewed before reaching the finacial piece)
>> - Do you have a strong desire to build a plane? 1250 or so hours
>> of your life is a lot of time to be spending for good resale value
>> - Does the finance minister like to fly- will she look forward to
>> going on trips that take too long to get to by auto?
>> - Do you understand that the price to build the plane is only the
>> start of the finances you'll be spending (Taxes, hangar,
>> maintenance (oil, etc) that can add up to 10% yearly.
>>
>> With that said, I have not started the building but I have a
>> stronger desire to build the plane than to fly it and one day will
>> be ready to sell it for another reason. I have no doubt I'll get
>> my time and money back when the plane is sold.
> Initially this may be so, but as the -10 becomes more available
> you'll be hard pressed to get value for your labor and maybe not the
> money you've spent. I had a small business brokering airplanes, and
> there are two kinds of folks out there. There are owners that are
> selling a 'gold bar' and buyers looking for a 'lead bar'. Very
> rarely are the two folks close to reality. There are those that
> will pay a nice price for a homebuilt because they have more money
> than time ..... but as the market sees more airplanes for sale then
> the competition for buyers heats up and sales prices fall. Profit
> (or breaking even) shouldn't be a part of the decision to build any
> homebuilt. Satisfaction and the ability to legally 'tweak' your
> pride and joy to improve it's looks, speed, or efficiency go a long way.
> Linn
>> Simply put my CFO supports the RV-10 because she knows I love to
>> build and have spent 7 years planning and saving for a kit plane.
>> She also really wants to take trips we simply can not go on due to
>> distance and time to get there, those two and not the resale works
>> for me, if your answer to the three questions is "yes" and your
>> wife understands the implication of your time building, the resale
>> value should be an easy sale for you. Just don't get caught up
>> with the money and forget why your building the plane to start
>> with- unless of course it is as an investment with hopes of making
>> money on your labor and not for the pleasure it will bring.
>>
>> Best of success with your propostion to the finance minister
>>
>> Pascal
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* James K Hovis <mailto:james.k.hovis@gmail.com>
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:28 AM
>> *Subject:* RV10-List: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's?
>>
>> As noted before I've been lurking absorbing the material
>> before I actually make the plunge and get a RV-10 kit. One
>> question I'd like to post to you here is what you think the
>> relative value for a completed RV-10 would be if one was to
>> sell their aircraft on the open market? I know that type of
>> question would probably lead to many different answers since
>> each airplane built is a little different from the next based
>> on builder preferences and such. For example, one guy could
>> build a strictly VFR machine while his buddy a few hangers
>> away has a hard IFR capable machine. What I'm thinking is a
>> moderate to high hp engine (235 to 260 hp) and probably light
>> duty IFR capable ( i.e. basic gauges with maybe one or two
>> EFIS displays and engine monitor). If I can reasonably assure
>> the household finance minister that I can get a good return on
>> my investment, it might sway her towards my thinking. I've
>> seen one RV-10 offered for $220,000 and a partially finished
>> a/c for $175,000. I'd assume there hasn't been many sold
>> since finished birds haven't been flying long, but any info
>> from the list is helpful.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> James K. Hovis
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? |
I agree with most of the assessments I've read in this thread. My plane is
almost ready to fly and I'm at $130K out of pocket. But I'll comment on the
building time... I've seen the number of 1250 hours of build time thrown out a
couple of times, I'm not sure what other people are seeing for build time
but... I am a first time builder and I'm sure that I could build faster next
time: I've put in almost 2500 hours in just over 2.5 years on my quickbuild
RV-10. Something to think about for those who are considering starting.
-Jim
40134
In a message dated 7/14/2006 9:46:58 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
james.k.hovis@gmail.com writes:
Pascal,
Thanks for the kind words. As stated before, I owned an AA-1A for nearly
ten years, so as far as the sustaining costs of ownership I know what it
takes. Holding a repairman's cert for my own airplane is a real benefit to me
too. And being a past part of the airport board for H-88, only about 5 miles
from the house, I can deal with those issues too. The desire for building has
been there for quite awhile (somewhat simmered while I actually owned an
airplane) and now that the rug rats are older (can actually buck a few rivets)
and
I'm seriously missing being able to go to the airport and pull out MY
airplane anytime I want. Learning how to build an airplane was one reason I went
to
college for an AE degree (boy was I in for a shock!). And the dear wife does
like to fly. The first time I took her for a ride, I ran a C-172 off the side
of an ice-covered runway while taxiing for take off and it didn't scare her
off (wasn't serious, just got a wheel of the runway edge and stuck in a
snow/slush bank). Anyway, if I have a reasonable assurance that what money I put
into an airplane I can get back out if I sell it (and as an added benefit get
enough to build a SECOND ship), it'll help seal the deal. I figure $100K -
$125K at least. If you figure $125 /hr (not a Cessna figure mind you...) at
1250 hrs your labor is "worth" around $156K. So with $125K in materials and
equipment a fairly well equipped -10 could be "worth" $280K or so. Put in a $60K
"amateur built" knock-down factor, you get to that $220K asking price I've
seen. Still not bad!
JKH
Message 13
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| Subject: | Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
Well, that was really uplifting.
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 9:20 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
That a great attitude about it Pascal. When it comes to the future outlook
of aviation and plane prices, I tend to think of myself as a realist.
(Note: "Pessimist" is the word
an optimist uses to describe a realist) ;) In my opinion,
with the looming issues ahead:
* Declining pilot population (soon to become more rapid due to
the end of the boomers)
* Increase in old plane sales due to removal of boomers from
the flying population
* Drastic increases in fuel costs
* Increase in regulation and restriction of aviation (i.e. TFR /
ADIZ propogation and general public security fears)
* Increases in insurance rates
* Limited or uncertain future of 100LL
* The almost complete loss of the concept of "personal responsibility"
causing huge lawsuit payouts in aviation.
* Economic concerns of the US Economy, which may be set off by a
drop in the housing market, forcing sales of "toys" like planes.
I personally feel that we're probably living a limited-timed charmed
lifestyle and that the days probably aren't that far away that aviation will
be very hard to both get into and stay in.
We all need to just stop and fully appreciate the time we have with our
health and our aircraft, that will allow us, for this possibly short time,
to have experiences that many people will never get.
To give our families memories that they may never have the opportunity to
pass on to their children. To build up many stories of the "days when you
used to be able to fly your own airplane" that you can tell your grandkids.
I have done a fairly good financial analysis of the costs of flying and
maintaining my RV-10. It did cost me a good chunk of change
to build, but I have that all paid off now. Surprisingly, I am
finding that after being completed....the mere cost of operation has a
definitely larger impact on my savings growth than aviation did a few years
ago. The RV-10 is fast and efficient, and "reasonable" to maintain. It is
not, however, inexpensive to fly and own. This is not the fault of the
company, the plane, the avionics I bought, or anything like that. It's the
insurance, the fuel, the oil, the hanger (not for me but for some people),
and those types of things that will keep people from racking up thousands of
hours on the RV-10's.
So when those other Cessna's/Piper's/Beeches, and all those other old planes
start to be dumped on the market at a faster rate, due to the above
concerns, I fully expect the value of my RV-10 to drop along with the
market. Depending on what natural, man-made, legislative, or economic
disaster falls on us, we could literally see our airplanes become nearly
worthless almost overnight. So building and planning for resale value being
equal or higher probably isn't the way to view it. With luck, all of those
above things will prove false, and our values will climb, our costs will
drop, and we'll be able to some day sell our RV-10's at 125-150% of our
initial costs, for the new RV-25 kits shipping starting in 2030....but I
just wouldn't plan it that way. A good and applicable quote to our entire
building and flying experience is this one by Albert Einstein:
"Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important
thing is not to stop questioning."
Cheers,
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Pascal wrote:
> This may be personal, but I don't see building a model or anything
> else I do for education, edification and enjoyment as being "billable
time".
> Building a large project is going to be a significantly larger
> undertaking financially and time wise but I'm not building this
> project as a "professional" I am building for the purpose of what this
> "experimental" class was designed for. When I state " I have no doubt
> I'll get my time and money back when the plane is sold" I am really
> saying "the enjoyment building, teaching my daughter about engineering
> and flying, and the memories we will have flying everywhere will make
> up for any costs associated with the RV-10" If I get back what I put
> into it (currently expected 125K) I will have come out ahead in the
> end. I am not looking to make money on my plane, assuming I even sold
> it in the next 20 years, I'm looking to enjoy MY work and talking to
> others about how to "tweak it".
> In the end I agree with you Linn, this is about the journey not the
> destination to a hopeful pot of gold.
> Thanks!
> Pascal
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* linn Walters <mailto:pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 13, 2006 10:15 PM
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's?
>
> Reply not necessarily aimed at Pascal!
>
> Pascal wrote:
>> I see you questions are focused on resale. I have a few for you
>> however (but there are hundreds of questions I assume you have
>> reviewed before reaching the finacial piece)
>> - Do you have a strong desire to build a plane? 1250 or so hours
>> of your life is a lot of time to be spending for good resale value
>> - Does the finance minister like to fly- will she look forward to
>> going on trips that take too long to get to by auto?
>> - Do you understand that the price to build the plane is only the
>> start of the finances you'll be spending (Taxes, hangar,
>> maintenance (oil, etc) that can add up to 10% yearly.
>>
>> With that said, I have not started the building but I have a
>> stronger desire to build the plane than to fly it and one day will
>> be ready to sell it for another reason. I have no doubt I'll get
>> my time and money back when the plane is sold.
> Initially this may be so, but as the -10 becomes more available
> you'll be hard pressed to get value for your labor and maybe not the
> money you've spent. I had a small business brokering airplanes, and
> there are two kinds of folks out there. There are owners that are
> selling a 'gold bar' and buyers looking for a 'lead bar'. Very
> rarely are the two folks close to reality. There are those that
> will pay a nice price for a homebuilt because they have more money
> than time ..... but as the market sees more airplanes for sale then
> the competition for buyers heats up and sales prices fall. Profit
> (or breaking even) shouldn't be a part of the decision to build any
> homebuilt. Satisfaction and the ability to legally 'tweak' your
> pride and joy to improve it's looks, speed, or efficiency go a long
way.
> Linn
>> Simply put my CFO supports the RV-10 because she knows I love to
>> build and have spent 7 years planning and saving for a kit plane.
>> She also really wants to take trips we simply can not go on due to
>> distance and time to get there, those two and not the resale works
>> for me, if your answer to the three questions is "yes" and your
>> wife understands the implication of your time building, the resale
>> value should be an easy sale for you. Just don't get caught up
>> with the money and forget why your building the plane to start
>> with- unless of course it is as an investment with hopes of making
>> money on your labor and not for the pleasure it will bring.
>>
>> Best of success with your propostion to the finance minister
>>
>> Pascal
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* James K Hovis <mailto:james.k.hovis@gmail.com>
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:28 AM
>> *Subject:* RV10-List: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's?
>>
>> As noted before I've been lurking absorbing the material
>> before I actually make the plunge and get a RV-10 kit. One
>> question I'd like to post to you here is what you think the
>> relative value for a completed RV-10 would be if one was to
>> sell their aircraft on the open market? I know that type of
>> question would probably lead to many different answers since
>> each airplane built is a little different from the next based
>> on builder preferences and such. For example, one guy could
>> build a strictly VFR machine while his buddy a few hangers
>> away has a hard IFR capable machine. What I'm thinking is a
>> moderate to high hp engine (235 to 260 hp) and probably light
>> duty IFR capable ( i.e. basic gauges with maybe one or two
>> EFIS displays and engine monitor). If I can reasonably assure
>> the household finance minister that I can get a good return on
>> my investment, it might sway her towards my thinking. I've
>> seen one RV-10 offered for $220,000 and a partially finished
>> a/c for $175,000. I'd assume there hasn't been many sold
>> since finished birds haven't been flying long, but any info
>> from the list is helpful.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> James K. Hovis
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Overhead Console Vent Inlet |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston@popsound.com>
Does Tony Sustare have a website or contact info?
cj
#40410
fuse
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 7:34 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Ed Hayden, who had his canopy at SNF for display at Tony
Sustare's booth for the overhead console, sent me some
photos to post. The overhead console is pressurized via
a tail inlet scoop, and Tony has that completed now. Ed
also has A/C installed in his tail, that works with the
vents. Should be impressive to see when he's flying.
Here is a link to the Mod's page where I stuck everything.
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/mods/index.html
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Hours to complete an RV-10 |
I don't understand the high build times, especially for QB. That's not a
judgement, just a curiosity. I suppose people work and measure their efforts
at different rates. Just for info, I built a slow-build RV-6A from start to
complete (flying) in 1500 hrs. I'm building a slow-build RV-10 and have 760
hrs at the point of installing the doors and expect to finish at around
1500-1700 hrs. I count the time from walking in the shop to leaving the shop
and write it down when I go through the door. The only time I study the
plans is when I'm in the shop, but I'm busy working when I'm in the shop. Do
any of you count thinking/dreaming time away from the shop?
Resale values: I think of the labor as my enjoyment and challenge of the
experience as some of you have said. I do not think of counting the hours
and charging for that as part of the resale value. But I would want the
market rate for what it should be worth. I wonder if any RV-10's have been
sold yet? I'd like to know what the market rate will be for an RV-10, not
that I want to sell mine. As bad as the outlook is, I agree with what Tim
Olson said about the future. Let's hope he is wrong!
Kevin
_____
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 12:36 PM
I agree with most of the assessments I've read in this thread. My plane is
almost ready to fly and I'm at $130K out of pocket. But I'll comment on the
building time... I've seen the number of 1250 hours of build time thrown out
a couple of times, I'm not sure what other people are seeing for build time
but... I am a first time builder and I'm sure that I could build faster next
time: I've put in almost 2500 hours in just over 2.5 years on my quickbuild
RV-10. Something to think about for those who are considering starting.
-Jim
40134
In a message dated 7/14/2006 9:46:58 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
james.k.hovis@gmail.com writes:
Pascal,
Thanks for the kind words. As stated before, I owned an AA-1A for nearly
ten years, so as far as the sustaining costs of ownership I know what it
takes. Holding a repairman's cert for my own airplane is a real benefit to
me too. And being a past part of the airport board for H-88, only about 5
miles from the house, I can deal with those issues too. The desire for
building has been there for quite awhile (somewhat simmered while I actually
owned an airplane) and now that the rug rats are older (can actually buck a
few rivets) and I'm seriously missing being able to go to the airport and
pull out MY airplane anytime I want. Learning how to build an airplane was
one reason I went to college for an AE degree (boy was I in for a shock!).
And the dear wife does like to fly. The first time I took her for a ride, I
ran a C-172 off the side of an ice-covered runway while taxiing for take off
and it didn't scare her off (wasn't serious, just got a wheel of the runway
edge and stuck in a snow/slush bank). Anyway, if I have a reasonable
assurance that what money I put into an airplane I can get back out if I
sell it (and as an added benefit get enough to build a SECOND ship), it'll
help seal the deal. I figure $100K - $125K at least. If you figure $125 /hr
(not a Cessna figure mind you...) at 1250 hrs your labor is "worth" around
$156K. So with $125K in materials and equipment a fairly well equipped -10
could be "worth" $280K or so. Put in a $60K "amateur built" knock-down
factor, you get to that $220K asking price I've seen. Still not bad!
JKH
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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Century
Schoolbook"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Century
Schoolbook";color:blue'>I don't
understand the high build times, especially for QB. That's not a
judgement, just a curiosity. I suppose people work and measure their
efforts at
different rates. Just for info, I built a slow-build RV-6A from start
to
complete (flying) in 1500 hrs. I'm building a slow-build RV-10 and have
760 hrs at the point of installing the doors and expect to finish at
around 1500-1700
hrs. I count the time from walking in the shop to leaving the shop and
write it
down when I go through the door. The only time I study the plans is
when I'm
in the shop, but I'm busy working when I'm in the shop. Do any of
you count thinking/dreaming time away from the
shop?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Century
Schoolbook"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Century
Schoolbook";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Century
Schoolbook"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Century
Schoolbook";color:blue'>Resale
values: I think of the labor as my enjoyment and challenge of the
experience as
some of you have said. I do not think of counting the hours and
charging for
that as part of the resale value. But I would want the market rate for
what it
should be worth. I wonder if any RV-10's have been sold yet? I'd
like to know what the market rate will be for an RV-10, not that I want
to sell
mine. As bad as the outlook is, I agree with what Tim Olson said about
the
future. Let's hope he is wrong!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Century
Schoolbook"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Century
Schoolbook";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><strong><b><i><font size=3 color=blue
face="Century Schoolbook"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook";
color:blue;font-style:italic'>Kevin </span></font></i></b></strong><font
color=blue><span style='color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New
Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p
>
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</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
JSMcGrew@aol.com
[mailto:JSMcGrew@aol.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, July 14,
2006 12:36
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">rv10-list@matronics.com</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: RV10-List:
Relative
Value for Complete RV-10's?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I agree with most of the
assessments I've
read in this thread. My plane is almost ready to fly and I'm
at $130K out
of pocket. But I'll comment on the building time... I've seen the
number of
1250 hours of build time thrown out a couple of times, I'm
not sure
what other people are seeing for build time but... I am a first time
builder
and I'm sure that I could build faster next time: I've put in
almost
2500 hours in just over 2.5 years on my quickbuild RV-10. Something to
think about
for those who are considering starting.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>-Jim<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>40134<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>In a message dated 7/14/2006
9:46:58 A.M.
Mountain Daylight Time, james.k.hovis@gmail.com
writes:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Pascal,
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> Thanks for the kind
words.
As stated before, I owned an AA-1A for nearly ten years, so as far as
the
sustaining costs of ownership I know what it takes. Holding a
repairman's cert
for my own airplane is a real benefit to me too. And being a past part
of the
airport board for H-88, only about 5 miles from the house, I can deal
with
those issues too. The desire for building has been there for quite
awhile
(somewhat simmered while I actually owned an airplane) and now that the
rug
rats are older (can actually buck a few rivets) and I'm seriously
missing being
able to go to the airport and pull out MY airplane anytime I want.
Learning how
to build an airplane was one reason I went to college for an AE degree
(boy was
I in for a shock!). And the dear wife does like to fly. The first time
I took
her for a ride, I ran a C-172 off the side of an ice-covered runway
while
taxiing for take off and it didn't scare her off (wasn't serious, just
got a
wheel of the runway edge and stuck in a snow/slush bank). Anyway, if I
have a
reasonable assurance that what money I put into an airplane I can get
back out
if I sell it (and as an added benefit get enough to build a SECOND
ship), it'll
help seal the deal. I figure $100K - $125K at least. If you figure $125
/hr
(not a Cessna figure mind you...) at 1250 hrs your labor is
"worth"
around $156K. So with $125K in materials and equipment a fairly well
equipped
-10 could be "worth" $280K or so. Put in a $60K "amateur
built" knock-down factor, you get to that $220K asking price I've
seen.
Still not bad! <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>JKH<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p
>
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Sorry John, I can see how it might be depressing, but it
really was mainly meant to say "We're all just flying
these toys for fun. You pay for fun toys, but toys don't
bring a big return. In our case, returns have been had
in the past, but it's not safe to assume it will continue
for a long time in the futre. If it does, that will
be just awesome."
I'm not saying anything will happen significant within
the next few years. It may, or it may not. But,
certainly without some big oil discovery or fantastic
discovery of alternative fuels, I personally can't
imagine that we'll get 30 more years of flying our
IO-540's around the sky.
To combine replies to another, I agree, if anyone can
build an RV-10 to the point of finishing, in less
than 1500 hours, I'd be pretty surprised, even if
completely QB. My estimates would be more like:
QB Complete: 1500-1700
1/2 QB Options: 1700-2000
100% Standard: 1900-2500
Those are pretty loose estimates, of course.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Jessen wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
>
> Well, that was really uplifting.
>
> do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 9:20 AM
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> That a great attitude about it Pascal. When it comes to the future outlook
> of aviation and plane prices, I tend to think of myself as a realist.
> (Note: "Pessimist" is the word
> an optimist uses to describe a realist) ;) In my opinion,
> with the looming issues ahead:
>
> * Declining pilot population (soon to become more rapid due to
> the end of the boomers)
> * Increase in old plane sales due to removal of boomers from
> the flying population
> * Drastic increases in fuel costs
> * Increase in regulation and restriction of aviation (i.e. TFR /
> ADIZ propogation and general public security fears)
> * Increases in insurance rates
> * Limited or uncertain future of 100LL
> * The almost complete loss of the concept of "personal responsibility"
> causing huge lawsuit payouts in aviation.
> * Economic concerns of the US Economy, which may be set off by a
> drop in the housing market, forcing sales of "toys" like planes.
>
> I personally feel that we're probably living a limited-timed charmed
> lifestyle and that the days probably aren't that far away that aviation will
> be very hard to both get into and stay in.
> We all need to just stop and fully appreciate the time we have with our
> health and our aircraft, that will allow us, for this possibly short time,
> to have experiences that many people will never get.
> To give our families memories that they may never have the opportunity to
> pass on to their children. To build up many stories of the "days when you
> used to be able to fly your own airplane" that you can tell your grandkids.
>
> I have done a fairly good financial analysis of the costs of flying and
> maintaining my RV-10. It did cost me a good chunk of change
> to build, but I have that all paid off now. Surprisingly, I am
> finding that after being completed....the mere cost of operation has a
> definitely larger impact on my savings growth than aviation did a few years
> ago. The RV-10 is fast and efficient, and "reasonable" to maintain. It is
> not, however, inexpensive to fly and own. This is not the fault of the
> company, the plane, the avionics I bought, or anything like that. It's the
> insurance, the fuel, the oil, the hanger (not for me but for some people),
> and those types of things that will keep people from racking up thousands of
> hours on the RV-10's.
>
> So when those other Cessna's/Piper's/Beeches, and all those other old planes
> start to be dumped on the market at a faster rate, due to the above
> concerns, I fully expect the value of my RV-10 to drop along with the
> market. Depending on what natural, man-made, legislative, or economic
> disaster falls on us, we could literally see our airplanes become nearly
> worthless almost overnight. So building and planning for resale value being
> equal or higher probably isn't the way to view it. With luck, all of those
> above things will prove false, and our values will climb, our costs will
> drop, and we'll be able to some day sell our RV-10's at 125-150% of our
> initial costs, for the new RV-25 kits shipping starting in 2030....but I
> just wouldn't plan it that way. A good and applicable quote to our entire
> building and flying experience is this one by Albert Einstein:
> "Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important
> thing is not to stop questioning."
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>
>
>
> Pascal wrote:
>> This may be personal, but I don't see building a model or anything
>> else I do for education, edification and enjoyment as being "billable
> time".
>> Building a large project is going to be a significantly larger
>> undertaking financially and time wise but I'm not building this
>> project as a "professional" I am building for the purpose of what this
>> "experimental" class was designed for. When I state " I have no doubt
>> I'll get my time and money back when the plane is sold" I am really
>> saying "the enjoyment building, teaching my daughter about engineering
>> and flying, and the memories we will have flying everywhere will make
>> up for any costs associated with the RV-10" If I get back what I put
>> into it (currently expected 125K) I will have come out ahead in the
>> end. I am not looking to make money on my plane, assuming I even sold
>> it in the next 20 years, I'm looking to enjoy MY work and talking to
>> others about how to "tweak it".
>> In the end I agree with you Linn, this is about the journey not the
>> destination to a hopeful pot of gold.
>> Thanks!
>> Pascal
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* linn Walters <mailto:pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 13, 2006 10:15 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's?
>>
>> Reply not necessarily aimed at Pascal!
>>
>> Pascal wrote:
>>> I see you questions are focused on resale. I have a few for you
>>> however (but there are hundreds of questions I assume you have
>>> reviewed before reaching the finacial piece)
>>> - Do you have a strong desire to build a plane? 1250 or so hours
>>> of your life is a lot of time to be spending for good resale value
>>> - Does the finance minister like to fly- will she look forward to
>>> going on trips that take too long to get to by auto?
>>> - Do you understand that the price to build the plane is only the
>>> start of the finances you'll be spending (Taxes, hangar,
>>> maintenance (oil, etc) that can add up to 10% yearly.
>>>
>>> With that said, I have not started the building but I have a
>>> stronger desire to build the plane than to fly it and one day will
>>> be ready to sell it for another reason. I have no doubt I'll get
>>> my time and money back when the plane is sold.
>> Initially this may be so, but as the -10 becomes more available
>> you'll be hard pressed to get value for your labor and maybe not the
>> money you've spent. I had a small business brokering airplanes, and
>> there are two kinds of folks out there. There are owners that are
>> selling a 'gold bar' and buyers looking for a 'lead bar'. Very
>> rarely are the two folks close to reality. There are those that
>> will pay a nice price for a homebuilt because they have more money
>> than time ..... but as the market sees more airplanes for sale then
>> the competition for buyers heats up and sales prices fall. Profit
>> (or breaking even) shouldn't be a part of the decision to build any
>> homebuilt. Satisfaction and the ability to legally 'tweak' your
>> pride and joy to improve it's looks, speed, or efficiency go a long
> way.
>> Linn
>>> Simply put my CFO supports the RV-10 because she knows I love to
>>> build and have spent 7 years planning and saving for a kit plane.
>>> She also really wants to take trips we simply can not go on due to
>>> distance and time to get there, those two and not the resale works
>>> for me, if your answer to the three questions is "yes" and your
>>> wife understands the implication of your time building, the resale
>>> value should be an easy sale for you. Just don't get caught up
>>> with the money and forget why your building the plane to start
>>> with- unless of course it is as an investment with hopes of making
>>> money on your labor and not for the pleasure it will bring.
>>>
>>> Best of success with your propostion to the finance minister
>>>
>>> Pascal
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> *From:* James K Hovis <mailto:james.k.hovis@gmail.com>
>>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:28 AM
>>> *Subject:* RV10-List: Relative Value for Complete RV-10's?
>>>
>>> As noted before I've been lurking absorbing the material
>>> before I actually make the plunge and get a RV-10 kit. One
>>> question I'd like to post to you here is what you think the
>>> relative value for a completed RV-10 would be if one was to
>>> sell their aircraft on the open market? I know that type of
>>> question would probably lead to many different answers since
>>> each airplane built is a little different from the next based
>>> on builder preferences and such. For example, one guy could
>>> build a strictly VFR machine while his buddy a few hangers
>>> away has a hard IFR capable machine. What I'm thinking is a
>>> moderate to high hp engine (235 to 260 hp) and probably light
>>> duty IFR capable ( i.e. basic gauges with maybe one or two
>>> EFIS displays and engine monitor). If I can reasonably assure
>>> the household finance minister that I can get a good return on
>>> my investment, it might sway her towards my thinking. I've
>>> seen one RV-10 offered for $220,000 and a partially finished
>>> a/c for $175,000. I'd assume there hasn't been many sold
>>> since finished birds haven't been flying long, but any info
>>> from the list is helpful.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> James K. Hovis
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
Message 17
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Newman" <rnewman@lutron.com>
Here's another data point for those thinking about build times.
For my Dad and I, we are about way through this plane project, with no QB options.
We are well into the the Fuse kit and have the Finish kit on hand.
We've built 4 airplanes (three Glastars and one Glass Goose.) , so I think we
are pretty far up the learning curve. We really like to build and enjoy the
whole process,
( yes, even the glass work).. We are at about 1400 hrs so far. When complete,
I expect we'll be in the 3000 hr. neighborhood...
-Bob Newman 40176..
Message 18
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| Subject: | Hours to complete an RV-10 |
I am at 1280/hrs (my build time only) and I have hung the doors and other
finish kit options. I am thinking I am 6 - 9 months away and I do about
80-100 hours a month. My best guess is ~2000 hours.
Slow build
No paint
Somebody else is doing the panel
Engine being done by someone else.
Rene' Felker
40322
N423CF
Finish Kit
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Belue, Kevin
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 12:18 PM
I don't understand the high build times, especially for QB. That's not a
judgement, just a curiosity. I suppose people work and measure their efforts
at different rates. Just for info, I built a slow-build RV-6A from start to
complete (flying) in 1500 hrs. I'm building a slow-build RV-10 and have 760
hrs at the point of installing the doors and expect to finish at around
1500-1700 hrs. I count the time from walking in the shop to leaving the shop
and write it down when I go through the door. The only time I study the
plans is when I'm in the shop, but I'm busy working when I'm in the shop. Do
any of you count thinking/dreaming time away from the shop?
Resale values: I think of the labor as my enjoyment and challenge of the
experience as some of you have said. I do not think of counting the hours
and charging for that as part of the resale value. But I would want the
market rate for what it should be worth. I wonder if any RV-10's have been
sold yet? I'd like to know what the market rate will be for an RV-10, not
that I want to sell mine. As bad as the outlook is, I agree with what Tim
Olson said about the future. Let's hope he is wrong!
Kevin
_____
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 12:36 PM
I agree with most of the assessments I've read in this thread. My plane is
almost ready to fly and I'm at $130K out of pocket. But I'll comment on the
building time... I've seen the number of 1250 hours of build time thrown out
a couple of times, I'm not sure what other people are seeing for build time
but... I am a first time builder and I'm sure that I could build faster next
time: I've put in almost 2500 hours in just over 2.5 years on my quickbuild
RV-10. Something to think about for those who are considering starting.
-Jim
40134
In a message dated 7/14/2006 9:46:58 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
james.k.hovis@gmail.com writes:
Pascal,
Thanks for the kind words. As stated before, I owned an AA-1A for nearly
ten years, so as far as the sustaining costs of ownership I know what it
takes. Holding a repairman's cert for my own airplane is a real benefit to
me too. And being a past part of the airport board for H-88, only about 5
miles from the house, I can deal with those issues too. The desire for
building has been there for quite awhile (somewhat simmered while I actually
owned an airplane) and now that the rug rats are older (can actually buck a
few rivets) and I'm seriously missing being able to go to the airport and
pull out MY airplane anytime I want. Learning how to build an airplane was
one reason I went to college for an AE degree (boy was I in for a shock!).
And the dear wife does like to fly. The first time I took her for a ride, I
ran a C-172 off the side of an ice-covered runway while taxiing for take off
and it didn't scare her off (wasn't serious, just got a wheel of the runway
edge and stuck in a snow/slush bank). Anyway, if I have a reasonable
assurance that what money I put into an airplane I can get back out if I
sell it (and as an added benefit get enough to build a SECOND ship), it'll
help seal the deal. I figure $100K - $125K at least. If you figure $125 /hr
(not a Cessna figure mind you...) at 1250 hrs your labor is "worth" around
$156K. So with $125K in materials and equipment a fairly well equipped -10
could be "worth" $280K or so. Put in a $60K "amateur built" knock-down
factor, you get to that $220K asking price I've seen. Still not bad!
JKH
Message 19
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| Subject: | Overhead Console Vent Inlet |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
Hopefully we will get to meet up with Tony at OSH, I believe he was the force behind
that nice fiberglass panel/console that Lancair was/is?? offering for the
RV-10. I have looked but not found a website for them but I believe if you go
to Larry Rosen's site he has pics of the console and contact ingo there.
Rick S.
40185
Message 20
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" <rick.conti@boeing.com>
Bob,
Are you flying the Glass Goose?
Thank You
Rick Conti
The Boeing Company
Senior Engineering Manager
office: 703 - 414 - 6141
blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 2:32 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Newman" <rnewman@lutron.com>
Here's another data point for those thinking about build times.
For my Dad and I, we are about way through this plane project, with no QB options.
We are well into the the Fuse kit and have the Finish kit on hand.
We've built 4 airplanes (three Glastars and one Glass Goose.) , so I think we
are pretty far up the learning curve. We really like to build and enjoy the
whole process,
( yes, even the glass work).. We are at about 1400 hrs so far. When complete,
I expect we'll be in the 3000 hr. neighborhood...
-Bob Newman 40176..
Message 21
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| Subject: | instrument sub-panel, fwd fuse and cabin cover |
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
Message 22
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Newman" <rnewman@lutron.com>
long story, but NO... we had it all the way thru high speed taxi tests, airworthyness
certificate in hand. And others started having trouble with the wings
coming off in flight. After a lot of research we decided it would never be
safe. we CUT her up and took her away.. all 10 yrs worth of building time
gone, but our lives in tact.... All useable hardware then went into the Glastars,
which do fly. !! nicely.
-Bob
>>> rick.conti@boeing.com 7/14/2006 3:09:30 PM >>>
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Conti, Rick" <rick.conti@boeing.com>
Bob,
Are you flying the Glass Goose?
Thank You
Rick Conti
The Boeing Company
Senior Engineering Manager
office: 703 - 414 - 6141
blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 2:32 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Newman" <rnewman@lutron.com>
Here's another data point for those thinking about build times.
For my Dad and I, we are about way through this plane project, with no QB options.
We are well into the the Fuse kit and have the Finish kit on hand.
We've built 4 airplanes (three Glastars and one Glass Goose.) , so I think we
are pretty far up the learning curve. We really like to build and enjoy the
whole process,
( yes, even the glass work).. We are at about 1400 hrs so far. When complete,
I expect we'll be in the 3000 hr. neighborhood...
-Bob Newman 40176..
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: instrument sub-panel and electrical |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Thanks for the reply Dick (and others as well). I think I'm going to end
up doing the same. but for a slightly different reason. It's 116 here in
AZ today, and will continue hot and $#@!@! for several more weeks before
starting back down the thermometer. Makes working in the garage tough,
so I ordered my radios, trnspndr, audio panel, yesterday, the Op Tech
EFIS are being built this week and will ship next week, I'm re-reading
my Aero-electric manual, So I'm going to take the next 6-? weeks and
plan and install do the electrical/radio/panel. The amount of actual
time in the garage will be limited as I can do a lot of the work indoors.
btw the pics of your install are helpful, I'd love to see anybody else
with similar pics.
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse
http://deemsrv10.com/
Message 24
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| Subject: | Wings/Duckworks lights. |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Fred Williams, M.D." <drfred@cox-internet.com>
I'm working on the slo-build wings. Getting close to section 17 and the
outboard leading edge. I helped a friend install his Duckworks lights
in his RV 6 that he just about has complete. So far, I think I will go
just with the lighting system 6 as is recommended by Vans and place the
landing lights in the wingtips. I would, however, like to cheat a
little and install the nutplates and extra wires in the left wing so
that if I decide to add a duckworks landing light at a later date, most
of the hard work will be done. Could someone who has installed the
duckworks light fax me a copy of the template for the nutplate
locations? I would be much abliged.
Fax; 903 784 3200
See you'all at Oshgosh. Wed thru Sat.
Thanks
Fred Williams
slo-building in Texas
40515
drfred@cox-internet.com
Message 25
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| Subject: | Tony's Overhead Console Vent Inlet |
To the -10 net on the overhead console:
I bought one of Tony's overhead consoles and have installed it in N184JM
already.
I am pleased with the console, and it goes in nicely if you pop rivet it into
the cabin top and then use simple silicone caulk to fill in the gaps.
However, there is a potential problem we need to address (and shame on me for
not thinking of it ahead of time).
It has to do with placement of the air inlet scoop versus the exhaust swirl
caused by prop flow coupled with the aerodynamics of the bird.
The concern is that if we are not careful in placement of the inleet scoop to
feed the tubes and console, that we will bring exhaust gases (and carbon
monoxide) into the cabin through the console.
At present, I have Tony's first production scoop that mounts directly in
front of the vertical tail.
There is significant concern that prop and exhaust swirl will suck CO into
the cabin with this placement. Van's has no data to support or disapprove of
such a cabin air inlet mounting.
I am looking at alternative placement of either Tony's scoop or installation
of a NACA scoop elsewhere on the aft fuselage to supply the air.
However, thus far we (I have a couple of aero engineers helping me) have not
been able to find any definitivie studies on this issue from either the
academic or corporate (Van's, Piper, etc) flight test world that shows what the
exhaust swirl actually looks like.
If I cannot find any definitive studies, then I will flight test a NACA vent
on the fuselage to see what CO it draws into the console/cockpit.
However, that probably won't happen till late Aug or mid Sep due to other
circumstances getting my bird into the air.
If anyone on the net has one of Tony's consoles and can test an inlet
location for CO prior to that, please let me know and I'll give you my best guess
where to mount your scoop should you decide not to use Tony's scoop and its
mounting location.
grumpy
#40404.....soon to fly!
In a message dated 7/14/2006 12:48:12 PM Central Standard Time,
CJohnston@popsound.com writes:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston@popsound.com>
Does Tony Sustare have a website or contact info?
cj
#40410
fuse
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 7:34 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Ed Hayden, who had his canopy at SNF for display at Tony
Sustare's booth for the overhead console, sent me some
photos to post. The overhead console is pressurized via
a tail inlet scoop, and Tony has that completed now. Ed
also has A/C installed in his tail, that works with the
vents. Should be impressive to see when he's flying.
Here is a link to the Mod's page where I stuck everything.
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/mods/index.html
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Tony's Overhead Console Vent Inlet |
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