Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:59 AM - Re: MT at OSH (LessDragProd@aol.com)
2. 05:37 AM - Re: OSH Update 7/27/06 (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
3. 05:37 AM - Re: Engine sites (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
4. 08:14 AM - Re: Engine sites (Vern W. Smith)
5. 03:11 PM - Re: MT at OSH (Robert G. Wright)
6. 03:16 PM - OSH Engine Info (bcondrey)
7. 03:18 PM - Re: MT at OSH (Chris , Susie Darcy)
8. 06:03 PM - Re: OSH Engine Info (Pascal)
9. 07:15 PM - Re: OSH Engine Info (Chris)
10. 07:50 PM - Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 (Eric Panning)
Message 1
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MT has a 10% discount for orders placed at Oshkosh.
List price - $9,380. Oshkosh discount price - $8,442. (Plus shipping.)
Van's Aircraft price - $8,060. (shipped to the closed assembly facility.)
Less Drag Products, Inc. group buy price - $7,500
(Plus Option A: Shipped disassembled to the closest assembly facility, or
Plus Option B: Shipped assembled to the closest international airport.)
Regards,
Jim Ayers
If you object to this kind of SPAM, then you aren't listening to your
wallet. :-)
In a message dated 7/23/2006 7:30:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
wayne.e@grandecom.net writes:
I am giving strong consideration to switching from the Hartzell 2 bladed
blended foil prop to the 3 bladed MT Prop. If there is any RV10 people at OSH
checking their e-mails and you happen to go past the MT booth could you please
see if they are having any show specials? Also if there is anyone that might
be interested in buying a new Hartzell Blended Foil prop let me know. I live
near Dallas.
Thanks for any help on this.
Wayne Edgerton # 40336
working on O2 system
do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: OSH Update 7/27/06 |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
We'll work on a group shot. Rob's 3400 and 3500 look very nice. They still have
a little work to do with the CDI and GS functions but it looks close. They
are supposed to be using a certified AHRS so hopefully they'll avoid some of
the experimental aspects of that.
Bob
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wed Jul 26 20:35:48 2006
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
BTW. Thanks so much for the updates. I must admit I keep scanning my
inbox, looking for more information, either pictures or summaries like
below. It's great to have you there, and the rest of the crowd. I'd
request more pictures, if you have the opportunity, but the verbal summaries
are very welcome, indeed. I know folks come and go, but if possible, I
request a group picture of the RV-10 builders. Maybe there will be a time
when most are in attendance. Be nice to gather them all together a take
some shots.
How is Rob Hickman's booth doing?
John J.
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 7:48 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Not a lot new today but here's my impression of the show so far:
Avionics: The intro of the G600 and G900 is definitely the highlight of the
show, especially since Garmin didn't prep the vendors very well for
questions. Good thing they aren't going to be available until 2007.
Lycoming type engines: Not as much 540 material or displays as last year for
some reason. Most vendors have the same displays they always have. I did
not that Aerosport didn't even have a 540 in their booth. Barratt has Mike
Sausen's on display (very nice).
"Other" engines: Very much toned down from prior years. Eggenfellner only
has their demo plane in their booth - not even the static display of the
engine that they've had in prior years. No hint of anything at all targeted
at the RV-10 crowd. I didn't go into their booth but didn't see any
brochures, signage, etc. Deltahawk is a replay of the last several years.
Innodyne is almost non-existant. Mistral has a similar display to prior
years but I haven't stopped in yet. I haven't seen any of the other engine
folks but haven't covered the entire grounds yet either.
New planes: RV-12 is getting a lot of curiosity but since it's with the
other Van's models and not anywhere close to the other LSAs it's hard to say
if it's real interest. I haven't been to the LSA area yet. Honda announced
some sort of alliance with Piper to produce their VLJ.
Picture of the day is the Camp Scholler entrance into AirVenture from
Wednesday morning.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50080#50080
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_60_367.jpg
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Engine sites |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Not that I noticed. My plan is to visit them today and take pix for the folks
considering that path.
Bob
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wed Jul 26 21:42:37 2006
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Paul Walter" <pdwalter@bigpond.net.au>
Thanks for your update - Bob.
Anything new at all on alternate engine exhibit sites, diesel or turbine.
Any exhibits with a diesel converted certified air craft, anything at all?.
Paul Walter
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:16 PM
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>
> I walked by the Eggenfellner booth and the only thing in it was the 2 seat
> RV with a Subie installed. There was no static display of their FWF
> package as in years past and nothing at all about something for the RV-10.
> I did not go talk with them but there were certainly not doing anything to
> attract anybody.
>
> Bob
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50069#50069
>
>
>
Message 4
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Vern W. Smith" <Vern@teclabsinc.com>
Hi Bob,
Yes, thank you for the updates!
As there seem to be inertest in engine advances, by the group, it may
be worth a trip by Precision Airmotive's booth. At the Arlington
Washington Fly-in they were talking about a new ignition/electronic fuel
injection system to replace the mags and mechanical injection system on
Lycoming engines. The system continually adjust the fuel mixture for
best economy from engine startup to shutdown (read mixture control goes
away) and has a three hour battery back-up for the system. They were
waiting until OSH for an official intro and pricing.
Vern Smith (#40324 just the back baffles to go & fuel tanks done:)
Do not archive
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Paul Walter" <pdwalter@bigpond.net.au>
Thanks for your update - Bob.
Anything new at all on alternate engine exhibit sites, diesel or
turbine.
Any exhibits with a diesel converted certified air craft, anything at
all?.
Message 5
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Hmmm, 2-blade Hartzell for 6050 from Van's.
Jim,
Maybe throw in the assembled shipping to make up for more price difference
and 2-3 knots of airspeed loss? Ramp appeal and a lighter weight only get
you so far for that much extra $$.
Rob Wright
#392 QB Wings
Ordering Prop by September
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
LessDragProd@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 6:56 AM
MT has a 10% discount for orders placed at Oshkosh.
List price - $9,380. Oshkosh discount price - $8,442. (Plus shipping.)
Van's Aircraft price - $8,060. (shipped to the closed assembly facility.)
Less Drag Products, Inc. group buy price - $7,500
(Plus Option A: Shipped disassembled to the closest assembly facility, or
Plus Option B: Shipped assembled to the closest international airport.)
Regards,
Jim Ayers
If you object to this kind of SPAM, then you aren't listening to your
wallet. :-)
In a message dated 7/23/2006 7:30:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
wayne.e@grandecom.net writes:
I am giving strong consideration to switching from the Hartzell 2 bladed
blended foil prop to the 3 bladed MT Prop. If there is any RV10 people at
OSH checking their e-mails and you happen to go past the MT booth could you
please see if they are having any show specials? Also if there is anyone
that might be interested in buying a new Hartzell Blended Foil prop let me
know. I live near Dallas.
Thanks for any help on this.
Wayne Edgerton # 40336
working on O2 system
do not archive
Message 6
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
As I noted in a prior post there really is very little here in the way of engine
news. Several people have expressed interest in pictures so I've attached a
collection.
At the risk of repeating myself, here are a few comments about what I've seen so
far.
EMag/PMag: Hoping to flight test 6 cylinder version in the spring and have them
at OSH next year. No other info available but they appear to be getting tired
of being asked about it.
Mistral: Engines look good but no real delivery info. Big thing they were pushing
is that each cylinder has dual injectors "in case one fails". Pictures attached
of both models along with their rotor display.
Innodyne: Don't even have their own booth this year - they seem to be doubled up
with one of the bush plane kit manufacturers. Picture attached of their entire
display along with a closeup of the nose section of the engine with rust on
the prop flange.
Deltahawk: They are displaying inside and talking about deliveries "next year".
No picture attached.
Suburu: Only engine is the one in the demo plane. I asked about the RV-10 setup
and they said "next year". Picture attached of their display space.
I also took a picture of yet another possibility but you might have to extend the
cowl a bit. Engine is compression ignition and generates 350 HP.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50201#50201
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/alt_eng_718.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_2_113.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_1_168.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/egg_378.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_4_762.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_3_171.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_2_152.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_1_211.jpg
Message 7
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Yes but isnt it wonderful we have a choice!
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert G. Wright
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 8:05 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: MT at OSH
Hmmm, 2-blade Hartzell for 6050 from Van's.
Jim,
Maybe throw in the assembled shipping to make up for more price
difference and 2-3 knots of airspeed loss? Ramp appeal and a lighter
weight only get you so far for that much extra $$.
Rob Wright
#392 QB Wings
Ordering Prop by September
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
LessDragProd@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 6:56 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: MT at OSH
MT has a 10% discount for orders placed at Oshkosh.
List price - $9,380. Oshkosh discount price - $8,442. (Plus
shipping.)
Van's Aircraft price - $8,060. (shipped to the closed assembly
facility.)
Less Drag Products, Inc. group buy price - $7,500
(Plus Option A: Shipped disassembled to the closest assembly facility,
or
Plus Option B: Shipped assembled to the closest international
airport.)
Regards,
Jim Ayers
If you object to this kind of SPAM, then you aren't listening to your
wallet. :-)
In a message dated 7/23/2006 7:30:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
wayne.e@grandecom.net writes:
I am giving strong consideration to switching from the Hartzell 2
bladed blended foil prop to the 3 bladed MT Prop. If there is any RV10
people at OSH checking their e-mails and you happen to go past the MT
booth could you please see if they are having any show specials? Also if
there is anyone that might be interested in buying a new Hartzell
Blended Foil prop let me know. I live near Dallas.
Thanks for any help on this.
Wayne Edgerton # 40336
working on O2 system
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: OSH Engine Info |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Pascal" <pascalreid@verizon.net>
Thanks for the info and pictures.
The more I here about the "other" engine options the more Lycoming sounds
like a better choice.
At least I know it's been tested and is shipping!
Appreciate the comparo.
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 3:15 PM
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>
> As I noted in a prior post there really is very little here in the way of
> engine news. Several people have expressed interest in pictures so I've
> attached a collection.
>
> At the risk of repeating myself, here are a few comments about what I've
> seen so far.
>
> EMag/PMag: Hoping to flight test 6 cylinder version in the spring and have
> them at OSH next year. No other info available but they appear to be
> getting tired of being asked about it.
>
> Mistral: Engines look good but no real delivery info. Big thing they were
> pushing is that each cylinder has dual injectors "in case one fails".
> Pictures attached of both models along with their rotor display.
>
> Innodyne: Don't even have their own booth this year - they seem to be
> doubled up with one of the bush plane kit manufacturers. Picture attached
> of their entire display along with a closeup of the nose section of the
> engine with rust on the prop flange.
>
> Deltahawk: They are displaying inside and talking about deliveries "next
> year". No picture attached.
>
> Suburu: Only engine is the one in the demo plane. I asked about the
> RV-10 setup and they said "next year". Picture attached of their display
> space.
>
> I also took a picture of yet another possibility but you might have to
> extend the cowl a bit. Engine is compression ignition and generates 350
> HP.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50201#50201
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/alt_eng_718.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_2_113.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_1_168.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/egg_378.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_4_762.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_3_171.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_2_152.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_1_211.jpg
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: OSH Engine Info |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris" <toaster73@earthlink.net>
I'll add another thanks for the updates... How about ECI's experimental 540?
Any new news on that?
Thanks
Chris Lucas
#40072
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 6:15 PM
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>
> As I noted in a prior post there really is very little here in the way of
> engine news. Several people have expressed interest in pictures so I've
> attached a collection.
>
> At the risk of repeating myself, here are a few comments about what I've
> seen so far.
>
> EMag/PMag: Hoping to flight test 6 cylinder version in the spring and have
> them at OSH next year. No other info available but they appear to be
> getting tired of being asked about it.
>
> Mistral: Engines look good but no real delivery info. Big thing they were
> pushing is that each cylinder has dual injectors "in case one fails".
> Pictures attached of both models along with their rotor display.
>
> Innodyne: Don't even have their own booth this year - they seem to be
> doubled up with one of the bush plane kit manufacturers. Picture attached
> of their entire display along with a closeup of the nose section of the
> engine with rust on the prop flange.
>
> Deltahawk: They are displaying inside and talking about deliveries "next
> year". No picture attached.
>
> Suburu: Only engine is the one in the demo plane. I asked about the
> RV-10 setup and they said "next year". Picture attached of their display
> space.
>
> I also took a picture of yet another possibility but you might have to
> extend the cowl a bit. Engine is compression ignition and generates 350
> HP.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50201#50201
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/alt_eng_718.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_2_113.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_1_168.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/egg_378.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_4_762.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_3_171.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_2_152.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_1_211.jpg
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Eric Panning <ericmpmail-rv10@yahoo.com>
All,
Took a look around. Here is my summary, I have pics
too - but didn't bring the USB cable for the camera.
Subaru:
Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10
suburu engines on Friday. I will report back what I
learn from it. His booth was empty when I went by and
looked like an older installed engine on display.
Deltahawk:
Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display
and the velocity install. Claim is 180 HP version
putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP model might not
be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
0.38 [Very good]. business manager brought on board
and comment that they regretted making statements of
"soon to market" as it has obviously taken them
longer. no formal discusions with Van's - comment that
business relationship between Van's and lycoming is
tight. 200 HP version last to come out. Needs bigger
intercooler and even bigger turbo's. Some delivery
slots in 2006 (all filled). Engines shipped so far are
to beta partners (who don't seem to be talking). This
was the best alternative engine that I saw at Oshkosh.
note: Needs a 28V system for starter, suggestion is
putting two batteries in series for starter, then dual
bat for normal operation. Needed to rotate the engine
fast enough to turn the blower fast enough to give 2
psi boost in intake for starting. 12 V won't cut it.
Mistral:
Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not
impressed with staff, they essentially kicked me out
when I started asking about intermediate housing
availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
End housings looked nice, as well as reduction drive.
Took a quick look at the exhaust system before they
stuffed it under the table and would not let me see
it. It is a stainless with a continuous outer shell
(like a heat muff). Rotaries are notorious for hot
exhausts....
Claimed there are no Mazda parts, but looking at the
engines on display they are using stock Mazda housings
(and likely rotors). They had set up the oil delivery
system to put oil into the cylinders per stock +
replaced upper housing fuel injectors with oil ports.
This seemed unusual as this would drip into the side
housings and not the combustion chambers.
Would not comment on diesel system [to me]. rotaries
have limitations on compression greater than ~ 9 or
10:1 so likely spark assisted diesel. Efficiency of
this is not as great as compression ignition but
better than gas. BSFC for gas is roughly ~ 0.45.
Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal
with them personally. Your mileage may vary....
Innodyn:
Innodyn had an engine on static display affiliated
with Turbine Cub (?). Looked great. BSFC claims still
as crazy as before (Better than GE, Williams, Pratt
and RR). Dyno data "right around the corner", just as
it has been for the last 3 years....
Twinpack not a current focus.
Rolls Royce 250-B17F turbo shaft:
Weight 205 lbs, Takeoff power 450 HP. 75% cruise 314
HP at a BSFC of 0.673 = 30 gals per hr. Idles at 10
Gals per hr. Better get those tip tanks! Length is 45"
(at least 3 inchs two long). Cost? Well, if you have
to ask then you can't afford it! I didn't, but I think
it is closer to 100k (or more) than 10 k.
ECi-540:
didn't talk to them here this engine but at Arlington
they said sometime next year. I mentioned all the
potential customers they are missing. Price will be
less than lycoming and I have heard low to mid 30's.
Superior diesel:
Lot's of engines on display. Size, weight and HP not a
good match for the RV-10. Looks great on the Diamond
Twinstar. (135 HP per side).
SMA:
didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K +
for the Cessna 182. Seemed to be focusing on europe
market (where diesel is a bigger advantage)
E85 Ethanol:
Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real
info. But I hear 10% ethanol is ok for cured proseal
but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is big issue too.
Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per
lb too so you are going to burn up more.. tip tanks?
RV-12:
Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings
attached and fuselage, tail largely complete. Engine
mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl layup.
Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes. Comment from
Van's that you should try them before you knock them.
Their comment that footbrakes might add 500.
I think it will sell well, looks better in person than
their sketches online. Claim sales late 2007 and
judging from progress so far I think it is realistic.
Apparently they would also be doing quickbuild kits.
"slowbuild" whole plane = RV10 tail kit. No match
drilling either, holes puched final size.
RV-10 (alex D): Took a peak at A/C install. Looks like
they are using a P-51 style scoop under the fuselage
for condenser cooling. Looks like it might pull in a
fair amount of exhaust gas and oil vapor in it's
current position. Plane looks great overall.
Garmin 900X:
If you have 67k buring a hole in your pocket and want
a Garmin 1000 for the experimental market then they
have the product for you. Looked fantastic. You could
add weather for only an additional 5k. Pointed out
that they should start working with Van's or builders
now on an install package. From the RV-7 mock up it
looks like you would have to cut in half all three
firewall to panel ribs. I also mentioned that they are
more likely to sell into the RV-10 market than RV-7.
Hope you enjoyed the summary. My take is if you are
doing a custom install then go with a rotary engine
and buy the additional parts needed from Tracy and
conversion concepts (mount). If you want to buy a
complete engine, can wait until ~ late 07 (or 08) and
want something different then I would pick deltahawk.
If you want to be flying by next Oshkosh, pick a
lycoming or clone :)
If I learn anything from Eggenfellner talk I will pass
it on. David Atkins gave a talk this morning about
rotary engine conversions but I was unable to attend.
Tracy Crook rumored to be heading up - perhaps Friday.
Eric
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