Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:13 AM - Re: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 (EFDsteve@aol.com)
2. 04:48 AM - Re: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 (Phillips, Jack)
3. 08:44 AM - Re: MT at OSH (bcondrey)
4. 08:44 AM - OSH Update 7/28/06 (bcondrey)
5. 09:24 AM - Re: OSH Update 7/28/06 (Vern W. Smith)
6. 09:55 AM - Re: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
7. 09:55 AM - Rookie questions ()
8. 10:39 AM - Re: OSH Engine Info (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
9. 10:40 AM - Re: OSH Update 7/28/06 (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
10. 11:19 AM - Re: Engine sites (Jay Rowe)
11. 11:50 AM - Re: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 (John Jessen)
12. 12:04 PM - Re: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
13. 12:12 PM - Re: OSH Update 7/28/06 (Vern W. Smith)
14. 12:15 PM - Re: Rookie questions (John Hasbrouck)
15. 05:50 PM - W-1011 and rear spar holes are not matched (Jae Chang)
16. 06:12 PM - Re: Rookie questions (Paul Grimstad)
17. 07:20 PM - Re: Engine sites (John W. Cox)
18. 07:21 PM - Re: OSH Update 7/28/06 (John W. Cox)
19. 07:26 PM - Re: OSH Update 7/28/06 (John W. Cox)
20. 07:26 PM - Re: W-1011 and rear spar holes are not matched ()
21. 07:36 PM - John's Estimate Pay Up Time . (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
22. 08:01 PM - Re: W-1011 and rear spar holes are not matched (Jae Chang)
23. 08:15 PM - Re: W-1011 and rear spar holes are not matched (Rene)
24. 11:30 PM - Re: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 (KiloPapa)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 |
Eric,
I'd like to add one more to your list, the Franklin is making a reappearance
at Oshkosh, just west of the Cleaveland Tools tent, north of hangar C. They
are bringing back their 220 hp, 6-cylinder 6A-350, made in Poland and
certified! Seems to me to be a better and more affordable alternative than the
Continental used by Vans in their proof of kit plane, and from what I've read
about it, it seems to have a good reputation as being smooth and generally
bullet proof. The brochure is available at _www.franklin-engines.com_
(http://www.franklin-engines.com)
Steve Weinstock
40230
In a message dated 7/27/2006 9:53:17 P.M. Central Standard Time,
ericmpmail-rv10@yahoo.com writes:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Eric Panning <ericmpmail-rv10@yahoo.com>
All,
Took a look around. Here is my summary, I have pics
too - but didn't bring the USB cable for the camera.
Subaru:
Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10
suburu engines on Friday. I will report back what I
learn from it. His booth was empty when I went by and
looked like an older installed engine on display.
Deltahawk:
Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display
and the velocity install. Claim is 180 HP version
putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP model might not
be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
0.38 [Very good]. business manager brought on board
and comment that they regretted making statements of
"soon to market" as it has obviously taken them
longer. no formal discusions with Van's - comment that
business relationship between Van's and lycoming is
tight. 200 HP version last to come out. Needs bigger
intercooler and even bigger turbo's. Some delivery
slots in 2006 (all filled). Engines shipped so far are
to beta partners (who don't seem to be talking). This
was the best alternative engine that I saw at Oshkosh.
note: Needs a 28V system for starter, suggestion is
putting two batteries in series for starter, then dual
bat for normal operation. Needed to rotate the engine
fast enough to turn the blower fast enough to give 2
psi boost in intake for starting. 12 V won't cut it.
Mistral:
Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not
impressed with staff, they essentially kicked me out
when I started asking about intermediate housing
availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
End housings looked nice, as well as reduction drive.
Took a quick look at the exhaust system before they
stuffed it under the table and would not let me see
it. It is a stainless with a continuous outer shell
(like a heat muff). Rotaries are notorious for hot
exhausts....
Claimed there are no Mazda parts, but looking at the
engines on display they are using stock Mazda housings
(and likely rotors). They had set up the oil delivery
system to put oil into the cylinders per stock +
replaced upper housing fuel injectors with oil ports.
This seemed unusual as this would drip into the side
housings and not the combustion chambers.
Would not comment on diesel system [to me]. rotaries
have limitations on compression greater than ~ 9 or
10:1 so likely spark assisted diesel. Efficiency of
this is not as great as compression ignition but
better than gas. BSFC for gas is roughly ~ 0.45.
Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal
with them personally. Your mileage may vary....
Innodyn:
Innodyn had an engine on static display affiliated
with Turbine Cub (?). Looked great. BSFC claims still
as crazy as before (Better than GE, Williams, Pratt
and RR). Dyno data "right around the corner", just as
it has been for the last 3 years....
Twinpack not a current focus.
Rolls Royce 250-B17F turbo shaft:
Weight 205 lbs, Takeoff power 450 HP. 75% cruise 314
HP at a BSFC of 0.673 = 30 gals per hr. Idles at 10
Gals per hr. Better get those tip tanks! Length is 45"
(at least 3 inchs two long). Cost? Well, if you have
to ask then you can't afford it! I didn't, but I think
it is closer to 100k (or more) than 10 k.
ECi-540:
didn't talk to them here this engine but at Arlington
they said sometime next year. I mentioned all the
potential customers they are missing. Price will be
less than lycoming and I have heard low to mid 30's.
Superior diesel:
Lot's of engines on display. Size, weight and HP not a
good match for the RV-10. Looks great on the Diamond
Twinstar. (135 HP per side).
SMA:
didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K +
for the Cessna 182. Seemed to be focusing on europe
market (where diesel is a bigger advantage)
E85 Ethanol:
Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real
info. But I hear 10% ethanol is ok for cured proseal
but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is big issue too.
Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per
lb too so you are going to burn up more.. tip tanks?
RV-12:
Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings
attached and fuselage, tail largely complete. Engine
mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl layup.
Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes. Comment from
Van's that you should try them before you knock them.
Their comment that footbrakes might add 500.
I think it will sell well, looks better in person than
their sketches online. Claim sales late 2007 and
judging from progress so far I think it is realistic.
Apparently they would also be doing quickbuild kits.
"slowbuild" whole plane = RV10 tail kit. No match
drilling either, holes puched final size.
RV-10 (alex D): Took a peak at A/C install. Looks like
they are using a P-51 style scoop under the fuselage
for condenser cooling. Looks like it might pull in a
fair amount of exhaust gas and oil vapor in it's
current position. Plane looks great overall.
Garmin 900X:
If you have 67k buring a hole in your pocket and want
a Garmin 1000 for the experimental market then they
have the product for you. Looked fantastic. You could
add weather for only an additional 5k. Pointed out
that they should start working with Van's or builders
now on an install package. From the RV-7 mock up it
looks like you would have to cut in half all three
firewall to panel ribs. I also mentioned that they are
more likely to sell into the RV-10 market than RV-7.
Hope you enjoyed the summary. My take is if you are
doing a custom install then go with a rotary engine
and buy the additional parts needed from Tracy and
conversion concepts (mount). If you want to buy a
complete engine, can wait until ~ late 07 (or 08) and
want something different then I would pick deltahawk.
If you want to be flying by next Oshkosh, pick a
lycoming or clone :)
If I learn anything from Eggenfellner talk I will pass
it on. David Atkins gave a talk this morning about
rotary engine conversions but I was unable to attend.
Tracy Crook rumored to be heading up - perhaps Friday.
Eric
Message 2
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
Thanks for the update Eric,
Is Hartzell making any noise about their new composite 3-blade prop? It
is supposedly 12 lbs lighter than their metal 3-blade
Jack Phillips
#40610
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Panning
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 10:49 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Eric Panning
<ericmpmail-rv10@yahoo.com>
All,
Took a look around. Here is my summary, I have pics
too - but didn't bring the USB cable for the camera.
Subaru:
Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10
suburu engines on Friday. I will report back what I
learn from it. His booth was empty when I went by and
looked like an older installed engine on display.
Deltahawk:
Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display
and the velocity install. Claim is 180 HP version
putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP model might not
be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
0.38 [Very good]. business manager brought on board
and comment that they regretted making statements of
"soon to market" as it has obviously taken them
longer. no formal discusions with Van's - comment that
business relationship between Van's and lycoming is
tight. 200 HP version last to come out. Needs bigger
intercooler and even bigger turbo's. Some delivery
slots in 2006 (all filled). Engines shipped so far are
to beta partners (who don't seem to be talking). This
was the best alternative engine that I saw at Oshkosh.
note: Needs a 28V system for starter, suggestion is
putting two batteries in series for starter, then dual
bat for normal operation. Needed to rotate the engine
fast enough to turn the blower fast enough to give 2
psi boost in intake for starting. 12 V won't cut it.
Mistral:
Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not
impressed with staff, they essentially kicked me out
when I started asking about intermediate housing
availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
End housings looked nice, as well as reduction drive.
Took a quick look at the exhaust system before they
stuffed it under the table and would not let me see
it. It is a stainless with a continuous outer shell
(like a heat muff). Rotaries are notorious for hot
exhausts....
Claimed there are no Mazda parts, but looking at the
engines on display they are using stock Mazda housings
(and likely rotors). They had set up the oil delivery
system to put oil into the cylinders per stock +
replaced upper housing fuel injectors with oil ports.
This seemed unusual as this would drip into the side
housings and not the combustion chambers.
Would not comment on diesel system [to me]. rotaries
have limitations on compression greater than ~ 9 or
10:1 so likely spark assisted diesel. Efficiency of
this is not as great as compression ignition but
better than gas. BSFC for gas is roughly ~ 0.45.
Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal
with them personally. Your mileage may vary....
Innodyn:
Innodyn had an engine on static display affiliated
with Turbine Cub (?). Looked great. BSFC claims still
as crazy as before (Better than GE, Williams, Pratt
and RR). Dyno data "right around the corner", just as
it has been for the last 3 years....
Twinpack not a current focus.
Rolls Royce 250-B17F turbo shaft:
Weight 205 lbs, Takeoff power 450 HP. 75% cruise 314
HP at a BSFC of 0.673 = 30 gals per hr. Idles at 10
Gals per hr. Better get those tip tanks! Length is 45"
(at least 3 inchs two long). Cost? Well, if you have
to ask then you can't afford it! I didn't, but I think
it is closer to 100k (or more) than 10 k.
ECi-540:
didn't talk to them here this engine but at Arlington
they said sometime next year. I mentioned all the
potential customers they are missing. Price will be
less than lycoming and I have heard low to mid 30's.
Superior diesel:
Lot's of engines on display. Size, weight and HP not a
good match for the RV-10. Looks great on the Diamond
Twinstar. (135 HP per side).
SMA:
didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K +
for the Cessna 182. Seemed to be focusing on europe
market (where diesel is a bigger advantage)
E85 Ethanol:
Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real
info. But I hear 10% ethanol is ok for cured proseal
but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is big issue too.
Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per
lb too so you are going to burn up more.. tip tanks?
RV-12:
Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings
attached and fuselage, tail largely complete. Engine
mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl layup.
Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes. Comment from
Van's that you should try them before you knock them.
Their comment that footbrakes might add 500.
I think it will sell well, looks better in person than
their sketches online. Claim sales late 2007 and
judging from progress so far I think it is realistic.
Apparently they would also be doing quickbuild kits.
"slowbuild" whole plane = RV10 tail kit. No match
drilling either, holes puched final size.
RV-10 (alex D): Took a peak at A/C install. Looks like
they are using a P-51 style scoop under the fuselage
for condenser cooling. Looks like it might pull in a
fair amount of exhaust gas and oil vapor in it's
current position. Plane looks great overall.
Garmin 900X:
If you have 67k buring a hole in your pocket and want
a Garmin 1000 for the experimental market then they
have the product for you. Looked fantastic. You could
add weather for only an additional 5k. Pointed out
that they should start working with Van's or builders
now on an install package. From the RV-7 mock up it
looks like you would have to cut in half all three
firewall to panel ribs. I also mentioned that they are
more likely to sell into the RV-10 market than RV-7.
Hope you enjoyed the summary. My take is if you are
doing a custom install then go with a rotary engine
and buy the additional parts needed from Tracy and
conversion concepts (mount). If you want to buy a
complete engine, can wait until ~ late 07 (or 08) and
want something different then I would pick deltahawk.
If you want to be flying by next Oshkosh, pick a
lycoming or clone :)
If I learn anything from Eggenfellner talk I will pass
it on. David Atkins gave a talk this morning about
rotary engine conversions but I was unable to attend.
Tracy Crook rumored to be heading up - perhaps Friday.
Eric
_________________________________________________
Message 3
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
No show special on MT that I'm aware of.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50333#50333
Message 4
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| Subject: | OSH Update 7/28/06 |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Not much to say after the engine update post from last night. We have had some
new arrivals camping at RV-10 HQ so I took a new picture of that. Dan Lloyd
is in the popup camper between the motor homes and Tim Olson's tent is in the
rear half of that site. Adrian Moses along with a couple of friends are in tents
on the other side of Gary's motorhome. Total count right now is at 11 customer
built RV-10s: Recent arrivals include the Monarch (picture attached), Noel
Simmons N325HP and Jon Stewart's. There may be one more but I haven't seen
it. Doesn't look like we'll make John Cox's prediction of 20.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50332#50332
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_188.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/monarch_752.jpg
Message 5
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| Subject: | OSH Update 7/28/06 |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Vern W. Smith" <Vern@teclabsinc.com>
Hi Bob,
How about an update on N325HP, did Noel use a parallel valve or angled
valve engine to get 325 hp? What are the performance numbers for the
Catto prop?
Thanks,
Vern Smith (#40324)
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 8:43 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Not much to say after the engine update post from last night. We have
had some new arrivals camping at RV-10 HQ so I took a new picture of
that. Dan Lloyd is in the popup camper between the motor homes and Tim
Olson's tent is in the rear half of that site. Adrian Moses along with
a couple of friends are in tents on the other side of Gary's motorhome.
Total count right now is at 11 customer built RV-10s: Recent arrivals
include the Monarch (picture attached), Noel Simmons N325HP and Jon
Stewart's. There may be one more but I haven't seen it. Doesn't look
like we'll make John Cox's prediction of 20.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50332#50332
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_188.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/monarch_752.jpg
Message 6
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
Anyone check out "V aircraft engines"? (a.k.a. ROTAX water cooled)
TDT
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Panning
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 10:49 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Eric Panning
<ericmpmail-rv10@yahoo.com>
All,
Took a look around. Here is my summary, I have pics
too - but didn't bring the USB cable for the camera.
Subaru:
Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10
suburu engines on Friday. I will report back what I
learn from it. His booth was empty when I went by and
looked like an older installed engine on display.
Deltahawk:
Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display
and the velocity install. Claim is 180 HP version
putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP model might not
be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
0.38 [Very good]. business manager brought on board
and comment that they regretted making statements of
"soon to market" as it has obviously taken them
longer. no formal discusions with Van's - comment that
business relationship between Van's and lycoming is
tight. 200 HP version last to come out. Needs bigger
intercooler and even bigger turbo's. Some delivery
slots in 2006 (all filled). Engines shipped so far are
to beta partners (who don't seem to be talking). This
was the best alternative engine that I saw at Oshkosh.
note: Needs a 28V system for starter, suggestion is
putting two batteries in series for starter, then dual
bat for normal operation. Needed to rotate the engine
fast enough to turn the blower fast enough to give 2
psi boost in intake for starting. 12 V won't cut it.
Mistral:
Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not
impressed with staff, they essentially kicked me out
when I started asking about intermediate housing
availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
End housings looked nice, as well as reduction drive.
Took a quick look at the exhaust system before they
stuffed it under the table and would not let me see
it. It is a stainless with a continuous outer shell
(like a heat muff). Rotaries are notorious for hot
exhausts....
Claimed there are no Mazda parts, but looking at the
engines on display they are using stock Mazda housings
(and likely rotors). They had set up the oil delivery
system to put oil into the cylinders per stock +
replaced upper housing fuel injectors with oil ports.
This seemed unusual as this would drip into the side
housings and not the combustion chambers.
Would not comment on diesel system [to me]. rotaries
have limitations on compression greater than ~ 9 or
10:1 so likely spark assisted diesel. Efficiency of
this is not as great as compression ignition but
better than gas. BSFC for gas is roughly ~ 0.45.
Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal
with them personally. Your mileage may vary....
Innodyn:
Innodyn had an engine on static display affiliated
with Turbine Cub (?). Looked great. BSFC claims still
as crazy as before (Better than GE, Williams, Pratt
and RR). Dyno data "right around the corner", just as
it has been for the last 3 years....
Twinpack not a current focus.
Rolls Royce 250-B17F turbo shaft:
Weight 205 lbs, Takeoff power 450 HP. 75% cruise 314
HP at a BSFC of 0.673 = 30 gals per hr. Idles at 10
Gals per hr. Better get those tip tanks! Length is 45"
(at least 3 inchs two long). Cost? Well, if you have
to ask then you can't afford it! I didn't, but I think
it is closer to 100k (or more) than 10 k.
ECi-540:
didn't talk to them here this engine but at Arlington
they said sometime next year. I mentioned all the
potential customers they are missing. Price will be
less than lycoming and I have heard low to mid 30's.
Superior diesel:
Lot's of engines on display. Size, weight and HP not a
good match for the RV-10. Looks great on the Diamond
Twinstar. (135 HP per side).
SMA:
didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K +
for the Cessna 182. Seemed to be focusing on europe
market (where diesel is a bigger advantage)
E85 Ethanol:
Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real
info. But I hear 10% ethanol is ok for cured proseal
but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is big issue too.
Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per
lb too so you are going to burn up more.. tip tanks?
RV-12:
Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings
attached and fuselage, tail largely complete. Engine
mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl layup.
Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes. Comment from
Van's that you should try them before you knock them.
Their comment that footbrakes might add 500.
I think it will sell well, looks better in person than
their sketches online. Claim sales late 2007 and
judging from progress so far I think it is realistic.
Apparently they would also be doing quickbuild kits.
"slowbuild" whole plane = RV10 tail kit. No match
drilling either, holes puched final size.
RV-10 (alex D): Took a peak at A/C install. Looks like
they are using a P-51 style scoop under the fuselage
for condenser cooling. Looks like it might pull in a
fair amount of exhaust gas and oil vapor in it's
current position. Plane looks great overall.
Garmin 900X:
If you have 67k buring a hole in your pocket and want
a Garmin 1000 for the experimental market then they
have the product for you. Looked fantastic. You could
add weather for only an additional 5k. Pointed out
that they should start working with Van's or builders
now on an install package. From the RV-7 mock up it
looks like you would have to cut in half all three
firewall to panel ribs. I also mentioned that they are
more likely to sell into the RV-10 market than RV-7.
Hope you enjoyed the summary. My take is if you are
doing a custom install then go with a rotary engine
and buy the additional parts needed from Tracy and
conversion concepts (mount). If you want to buy a
complete engine, can wait until ~ late 07 (or 08) and
want something different then I would pick deltahawk.
If you want to be flying by next Oshkosh, pick a
lycoming or clone :)
If I learn anything from Eggenfellner talk I will pass
it on. David Atkins gave a talk this morning about
rotary engine conversions but I was unable to attend.
Tracy Crook rumored to be heading up - perhaps Friday.
Eric
Message 7
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| Subject: | Rookie questions |
--> RV10-List message posted by: <seanblair@adelphia.net>
Hello all,
I am one of those rare people you might consider crazy that is building a plane
and learning to fly at the same time. Don't worry...I'll get my time and transition
training in well before I jump into the 10.
Because of my inexperience, I run into things in the build with systems that I
do not have alot of knowledge about yet. One of these are all the antennaes and
their placement in the airframe.
Is there a list of the antennaes I will need and their possible locations/functions?
I am well into the fuselage construction and need to start thinking of
where to mount things and possible wire/coax runs. I intend to go pretty heavily
on the capabilities of this plane. IFR and lots of glass in the panel.
Thanks for any help.
Sean Blair
#40225
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: OSH Engine Info |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Just talked to them - they say it should be ready to show and ship by next summer
at OSH.
Bob
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thu Jul 27 19:13:06 2006
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris" <toaster73@earthlink.net>
I'll add another thanks for the updates... How about ECI's experimental 540?
Any new news on that?
Thanks
Chris Lucas
#40072
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 6:15 PM
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>
> As I noted in a prior post there really is very little here in the way of
> engine news. Several people have expressed interest in pictures so I've
> attached a collection.
>
> At the risk of repeating myself, here are a few comments about what I've
> seen so far.
>
> EMag/PMag: Hoping to flight test 6 cylinder version in the spring and have
> them at OSH next year. No other info available but they appear to be
> getting tired of being asked about it.
>
> Mistral: Engines look good but no real delivery info. Big thing they were
> pushing is that each cylinder has dual injectors "in case one fails".
> Pictures attached of both models along with their rotor display.
>
> Innodyne: Don't even have their own booth this year - they seem to be
> doubled up with one of the bush plane kit manufacturers. Picture attached
> of their entire display along with a closeup of the nose section of the
> engine with rust on the prop flange.
>
> Deltahawk: They are displaying inside and talking about deliveries "next
> year". No picture attached.
>
> Suburu: Only engine is the one in the demo plane. I asked about the
> RV-10 setup and they said "next year". Picture attached of their display
> space.
>
> I also took a picture of yet another possibility but you might have to
> extend the cowl a bit. Engine is compression ignition and generates 350
> HP.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50201#50201
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/alt_eng_718.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_2_113.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/innodyne_1_168.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/egg_378.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_4_762.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_3_171.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_2_152.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/mistral_1_211.jpg
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: OSH Update 7/28/06 |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
It's a parallel valve IO-540 built up be Performance Aero Engines. I've got a
couple of pictures of that I'll post later today or in the AM. He wasn't over
by the plane so I don't know much more.
Bob
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Fri Jul 28 09:23:09 2006
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Vern W. Smith" <Vern@teclabsinc.com>
Hi Bob,
How about an update on N325HP, did Noel use a parallel valve or angled
valve engine to get 325 hp? What are the performance numbers for the
Catto prop?
Thanks,
Vern Smith (#40324)
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 8:43 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Not much to say after the engine update post from last night. We have
had some new arrivals camping at RV-10 HQ so I took a new picture of
that. Dan Lloyd is in the popup camper between the motor homes and Tim
Olson's tent is in the rear half of that site. Adrian Moses along with
a couple of friends are in tents on the other side of Gary's motorhome.
Total count right now is at 11 customer built RV-10s: Recent arrivals
include the Monarch (picture attached), Noel Simmons N325HP and Jon
Stewart's. There may be one more but I haven't seen it. Doesn't look
like we'll make John Cox's prediction of 20.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50332#50332
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_188.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/monarch_752.jpg
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Engine sites |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jay Rowe" <jfrjr@adelphia.net>
I went to Precision Airmotive's presentation re. their new "Eagle" FADEC.
They are now selling a package for 4 cylinder engines. The presentor (one
of the owners of Precision) said the "package will be very competitive with
a standard set up of two mags and the usual standard injection system". He
also said they hope to have their 6 cylinder version for the 540 ready by
"early 2007". Jay Rowe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 11:06 AM
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Vern W. Smith" <Vern@teclabsinc.com>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> Yes, thank you for the updates!
>
> As there seem to be inertest in engine advances, by the group, it may
> be worth a trip by Precision Airmotive's booth. At the Arlington
> Washington Fly-in they were talking about a new ignition/electronic fuel
> injection system to replace the mags and mechanical injection system on
> Lycoming engines. The system continually adjust the fuel mixture for
> best economy from engine startup to shutdown (read mixture control goes
> away) and has a three hour battery back-up for the system. They were
> waiting until OSH for an official intro and pricing.
>
> Vern Smith (#40324 just the back baffles to go & fuel tanks done:)
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Paul Walter" <pdwalter@bigpond.net.au>
>
> Thanks for your update - Bob.
> Anything new at all on alternate engine exhibit sites, diesel or
> turbine.
> Any exhibits with a diesel converted certified air craft, anything at
> all?.
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
So, Tim. Garmin 900 and 600, the former for the X crowd. Ah, now, ah, I've
been told that "patience, you must have," but now am thinking aloud, ever so
quietly, "pony up, you must do." Where's the Entegra equivalent? Will it
be put on display in your test bed? Is this the plan?
John J
ever dreaming
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Dawson-Townsend
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 9:55 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"
--> <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
Anyone check out "V aircraft engines"? (a.k.a. ROTAX water cooled)
TDT
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Panning
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 10:49 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Eric Panning
<ericmpmail-rv10@yahoo.com>
All,
Took a look around. Here is my summary, I have pics too - but didn't bring
the USB cable for the camera.
Subaru:
Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10 suburu engines on
Friday. I will report back what I learn from it. His booth was empty when I
went by and looked like an older installed engine on display.
Deltahawk:
Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display and the velocity
install. Claim is 180 HP version putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP
model might not be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
0.38 [Very good]. business manager brought on board and comment that they
regretted making statements of "soon to market" as it has obviously taken
them longer. no formal discusions with Van's - comment that business
relationship between Van's and lycoming is tight. 200 HP version last to
come out. Needs bigger intercooler and even bigger turbo's. Some delivery
slots in 2006 (all filled). Engines shipped so far are to beta partners (who
don't seem to be talking). This was the best alternative engine that I saw
at Oshkosh.
note: Needs a 28V system for starter, suggestion is putting two batteries in
series for starter, then dual bat for normal operation. Needed to rotate the
engine fast enough to turn the blower fast enough to give 2 psi boost in
intake for starting. 12 V won't cut it.
Mistral:
Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not impressed with staff,
they essentially kicked me out when I started asking about intermediate
housing availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
End housings looked nice, as well as reduction drive.
Took a quick look at the exhaust system before they stuffed it under the
table and would not let me see it. It is a stainless with a continuous outer
shell (like a heat muff). Rotaries are notorious for hot exhausts....
Claimed there are no Mazda parts, but looking at the engines on display they
are using stock Mazda housings (and likely rotors). They had set up the oil
delivery system to put oil into the cylinders per stock + replaced upper
housing fuel injectors with oil ports.
This seemed unusual as this would drip into the side housings and not the
combustion chambers.
Would not comment on diesel system [to me]. rotaries have limitations on
compression greater than ~ 9 or
10:1 so likely spark assisted diesel. Efficiency of this is not as great as
compression ignition but better than gas. BSFC for gas is roughly ~ 0.45.
Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal with them personally.
Your mileage may vary....
Innodyn:
Innodyn had an engine on static display affiliated with Turbine Cub (?).
Looked great. BSFC claims still as crazy as before (Better than GE,
Williams, Pratt and RR). Dyno data "right around the corner", just as it has
been for the last 3 years....
Twinpack not a current focus.
Rolls Royce 250-B17F turbo shaft:
Weight 205 lbs, Takeoff power 450 HP. 75% cruise 314 HP at a BSFC of 0.673
30 gals per hr. Idles at 10 Gals per hr. Better get those tip tanks! Length
is 45"
(at least 3 inchs two long). Cost? Well, if you have to ask then you can't
afford it! I didn't, but I think it is closer to 100k (or more) than 10 k.
ECi-540:
didn't talk to them here this engine but at Arlington they said sometime
next year. I mentioned all the potential customers they are missing. Price
will be less than lycoming and I have heard low to mid 30's.
Superior diesel:
Lot's of engines on display. Size, weight and HP not a good match for the
RV-10. Looks great on the Diamond Twinstar. (135 HP per side).
SMA:
didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K + for the Cessna 182.
Seemed to be focusing on europe market (where diesel is a bigger advantage)
E85 Ethanol:
Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real info. But I hear 10%
ethanol is ok for cured proseal but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is big
issue too.
Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per lb too so you are going
to burn up more.. tip tanks?
RV-12:
Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings attached and fuselage, tail
largely complete. Engine mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl
layup.
Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes. Comment from Van's that you should
try them before you knock them.
Their comment that footbrakes might add 500.
I think it will sell well, looks better in person than their sketches
online. Claim sales late 2007 and judging from progress so far I think it is
realistic.
Apparently they would also be doing quickbuild kits.
"slowbuild" whole plane = RV10 tail kit. No match drilling either, holes
puched final size.
RV-10 (alex D): Took a peak at A/C install. Looks like they are using a P-51
style scoop under the fuselage for condenser cooling. Looks like it might
pull in a fair amount of exhaust gas and oil vapor in it's current position.
Plane looks great overall.
Garmin 900X:
If you have 67k buring a hole in your pocket and want a Garmin 1000 for the
experimental market then they have the product for you. Looked fantastic.
You could add weather for only an additional 5k. Pointed out that they
should start working with Van's or builders now on an install package. From
the RV-7 mock up it looks like you would have to cut in half all three
firewall to panel ribs. I also mentioned that they are more likely to sell
into the RV-10 market than RV-7.
Hope you enjoyed the summary. My take is if you are doing a custom install
then go with a rotary engine and buy the additional parts needed from Tracy
and conversion concepts (mount). If you want to buy a complete engine, can
wait until ~ late 07 (or 08) and want something different then I would pick
deltahawk.
If you want to be flying by next Oshkosh, pick a lycoming or clone :)
If I learn anything from Eggenfellner talk I will pass it on. David Atkins
gave a talk this morning about rotary engine conversions but I was unable to
attend.
Tracy Crook rumored to be heading up - perhaps Friday.
Eric
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
Some decisions are above my pay grade . . .
FWIW, my airplane is MY project, not the company's, so it's not really a
testbed in that sense . . .
TDT
40025
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 2:48 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
So, Tim. Garmin 900 and 600, the former for the X crowd. Ah, now, ah,
I've
been told that "patience, you must have," but now am thinking aloud,
ever so
quietly, "pony up, you must do." Where's the Entegra equivalent? Will
it
be put on display in your test bed? Is this the plan?
John J
ever dreaming
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Dawson-Townsend
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 9:55 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"
--> <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
Anyone check out "V aircraft engines"? (a.k.a. ROTAX water cooled)
TDT
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Panning
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 10:49 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Eric Panning
<ericmpmail-rv10@yahoo.com>
All,
Took a look around. Here is my summary, I have pics too - but didn't
bring
the USB cable for the camera.
Subaru:
Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10 suburu engines on
Friday. I will report back what I learn from it. His booth was empty
when I
went by and looked like an older installed engine on display.
Deltahawk:
Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display and the velocity
install. Claim is 180 HP version putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP
model might not be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
0.38 [Very good]. business manager brought on board and comment that
they
regretted making statements of "soon to market" as it has obviously
taken
them longer. no formal discusions with Van's - comment that business
relationship between Van's and lycoming is tight. 200 HP version last to
come out. Needs bigger intercooler and even bigger turbo's. Some
delivery
slots in 2006 (all filled). Engines shipped so far are to beta partners
(who
don't seem to be talking). This was the best alternative engine that I
saw
at Oshkosh.
note: Needs a 28V system for starter, suggestion is putting two
batteries in
series for starter, then dual bat for normal operation. Needed to rotate
the
engine fast enough to turn the blower fast enough to give 2 psi boost in
intake for starting. 12 V won't cut it.
Mistral:
Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not impressed with
staff,
they essentially kicked me out when I started asking about intermediate
housing availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
End housings looked nice, as well as reduction drive.
Took a quick look at the exhaust system before they stuffed it under the
table and would not let me see it. It is a stainless with a continuous
outer
shell (like a heat muff). Rotaries are notorious for hot exhausts....
Claimed there are no Mazda parts, but looking at the engines on display
they
are using stock Mazda housings (and likely rotors). They had set up the
oil
delivery system to put oil into the cylinders per stock + replaced upper
housing fuel injectors with oil ports.
This seemed unusual as this would drip into the side housings and not
the
combustion chambers.
Would not comment on diesel system [to me]. rotaries have limitations on
compression greater than ~ 9 or
10:1 so likely spark assisted diesel. Efficiency of this is not as great
as
compression ignition but better than gas. BSFC for gas is roughly ~
0.45.
Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal with them
personally.
Your mileage may vary....
Innodyn:
Innodyn had an engine on static display affiliated with Turbine Cub (?).
Looked great. BSFC claims still as crazy as before (Better than GE,
Williams, Pratt and RR). Dyno data "right around the corner", just as it
has
been for the last 3 years....
Twinpack not a current focus.
Rolls Royce 250-B17F turbo shaft:
Weight 205 lbs, Takeoff power 450 HP. 75% cruise 314 HP at a BSFC of
0.673
30 gals per hr. Idles at 10 Gals per hr. Better get those tip tanks!
Length
is 45"
(at least 3 inchs two long). Cost? Well, if you have to ask then you
can't
afford it! I didn't, but I think it is closer to 100k (or more) than 10
k.
ECi-540:
didn't talk to them here this engine but at Arlington they said sometime
next year. I mentioned all the potential customers they are missing.
Price
will be less than lycoming and I have heard low to mid 30's.
Superior diesel:
Lot's of engines on display. Size, weight and HP not a good match for
the
RV-10. Looks great on the Diamond Twinstar. (135 HP per side).
SMA:
didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K + for the Cessna 182.
Seemed to be focusing on europe market (where diesel is a bigger
advantage)
E85 Ethanol:
Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real info. But I hear
10%
ethanol is ok for cured proseal but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is
big
issue too.
Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per lb too so you are
going
to burn up more.. tip tanks?
RV-12:
Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings attached and fuselage,
tail
largely complete. Engine mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl
layup.
Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes. Comment from Van's that you
should
try them before you knock them.
Their comment that footbrakes might add 500.
I think it will sell well, looks better in person than their sketches
online. Claim sales late 2007 and judging from progress so far I think
it is
realistic.
Apparently they would also be doing quickbuild kits.
"slowbuild" whole plane = RV10 tail kit. No match drilling either, holes
puched final size.
RV-10 (alex D): Took a peak at A/C install. Looks like they are using a
P-51
style scoop under the fuselage for condenser cooling. Looks like it
might
pull in a fair amount of exhaust gas and oil vapor in it's current
position.
Plane looks great overall.
Garmin 900X:
If you have 67k buring a hole in your pocket and want a Garmin 1000 for
the
experimental market then they have the product for you. Looked
fantastic.
You could add weather for only an additional 5k. Pointed out that they
should start working with Van's or builders now on an install package.
From
the RV-7 mock up it looks like you would have to cut in half all three
firewall to panel ribs. I also mentioned that they are more likely to
sell
into the RV-10 market than RV-7.
Hope you enjoyed the summary. My take is if you are doing a custom
install
then go with a rotary engine and buy the additional parts needed from
Tracy
and conversion concepts (mount). If you want to buy a complete engine,
can
wait until ~ late 07 (or 08) and want something different then I would
pick
deltahawk.
If you want to be flying by next Oshkosh, pick a lycoming or clone :)
If I learn anything from Eggenfellner talk I will pass it on. David
Atkins
gave a talk this morning about rotary engine conversions but I was
unable to
attend.
Tracy Crook rumored to be heading up - perhaps Friday.
Eric
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | OSH Update 7/28/06 |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Vern W. Smith" <Vern@teclabsinc.com>
Thanks for the information! This plane has always intrigued me since I
first saw it mentioned on the group list. I've always wondered how the
fixed pitch Catto compares to the Hartzell prop.
Vern (#40324)
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Condrey, Bob
(US SSA)
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 10:40 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)"
<bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
It's a parallel valve IO-540 built up be Performance Aero Engines. I've
got a couple of pictures of that I'll post later today or in the AM. He
wasn't over by the plane so I don't know much more.
Bob
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Fri Jul 28 09:23:09 2006
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Vern W. Smith" <Vern@teclabsinc.com>
Hi Bob,
How about an update on N325HP, did Noel use a parallel valve or angled
valve engine to get 325 hp? What are the performance numbers for the
Catto prop?
Thanks,
Vern Smith (#40324)
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rookie questions |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck@woh.rr.com>
Sean,
The antennas you will need are dictated by the equipment you choose.
There are com and nav antennae available for both wingtip mount and
fuselage. Some have mounted their GPS antennas under the cowl, others on
top of the fuselage or the instrument panel. X-ponder antennas generally
are mounted under the fuse, while the ELT antenna seems to work well near
the vertical tail on top of the fuse. I'm using the wingtips for nav and
marker beacon antennas with com antennas top and bottom of fuselage. Unsure
yet where I want my GPS antenna but my X-ponder will be close to the midline
near the front of the fuse.. Wire runs as necessary, plenty of space for
them in this airframe. Consult the manufacturer of the avionics you choose
for further suggestions on antenna placement....john
John Hasbrouck
#40264
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | W-1011 and rear spar holes are not matched |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" <jc-matronics_rv10@jline.com>
This is a bit odd, and I just want to verify that this is okay. I am on
page 15-4, step 1.
When match-drilling the 2 outboard most wing step ribs (W-1011) with the
rear spar (W-1007A) and the rear spar reinforcement fork (W-1007B), the
prepunched holes in the ribs do not line up with the holes in the other
parts.
2 outboard (left) most W-1011 ribs:
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4364.html
Extra match-drill holes:
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4365.html
It just seems strange to have these extra holes so close to the new
rivet-holes. However, all of my W-1011's have 4 pre-punched holes.
Everybody has these extra holes, right?
Thanks,
Jae
#40533
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rookie questions |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Paul Grimstad" <bldgrv10450@comcast.net>
Sean
I'm sure your not alone as a builder / student pilot. I am enjoying the same
program. I have been told that antennas should have a doubler plate to help
disburse the vibration and avoid stress cracking of the skin. I will also
look forward to the stream on this subject.
Paul Grimstad
RV10 40450 Tailcone complete / bolting up the tail feathers
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 9:53 AM
> --> RV10-List message posted by: <seanblair@adelphia.net>
>
> Hello all,
>
> I am one of those rare people you might consider crazy that is building a
> plane and learning to fly at the same time. Don't worry...I'll get my
> time and transition training in well before I jump into the 10.
>
> Because of my inexperience, I run into things in the build with systems
> that I do not have alot of knowledge about yet. One of these are all the
> antennaes and their placement in the airframe.
>
> Is there a list of the antennaes I will need and their possible
> locations/functions? I am well into the fuselage construction and need to
> start thinking of where to mount things and possible wire/coax runs. I
> intend to go pretty heavily on the capabilities of this plane. IFR and
> lots of glass in the panel.
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> Sean Blair
> #40225
>
>
>
Message 17
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|
The Eagle is $7,900 for the IO-360 and the 390. If anyone is willing
Barrett is prepared to build the engine and use the system to acquire
Dyno results. Precision would prefer to drive the business to their
engine company. It is slick.
John Cox
________________________________
Sent: Fri 7/28/2006 11:17 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jay Rowe" <jfrjr@adelphia.net>
I went to Precision Airmotive's presentation re. their new "Eagle"
FADEC.
They are now selling a package for 4 cylinder engines. The presentor
(one
of the owners of Precision) said the "package will be very competitive
with
a standard set up of two mags and the usual standard injection system".
He
also said they hope to have their 6 cylinder version for the 540 ready
by
"early 2007". Jay Rowe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 11:06 AM
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Vern W. Smith" <Vern@teclabsinc.com>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> Yes, thank you for the updates!
>
> As there seem to be inertest in engine advances, by the group, it may
> be worth a trip by Precision Airmotive's booth. At the Arlington
> Washington Fly-in they were talking about a new ignition/electronic
fuel
> injection system to replace the mags and mechanical injection system
on
> Lycoming engines. The system continually adjust the fuel mixture for
> best economy from engine startup to shutdown (read mixture control
goes
> away) and has a three hour battery back-up for the system. They were
> waiting until OSH for an official intro and pricing.
>
> Vern Smith (#40324 just the back baffles to go & fuel tanks done:)
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Paul Walter"
<pdwalter@bigpond.net.au>
>
> Thanks for your update - Bob.
> Anything new at all on alternate engine exhibit sites, diesel or
> turbine.
> Any exhibits with a diesel converted certified air craft, anything at
> all?.
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
>
>
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Message 18
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| Subject: | OSH Update 7/28/06 |
Don't take the HP number to the bank till a Barrett verified engine run
is Dyno'ed and documented. The number is not real (Its called a
Hollywood or California fudge factor and can change as quick as the new
owner peals the vinyl N number off and buys the aircraft now for SALE.
Do tell us why Noel.
John Cox
________________________________
SSA)
Sent: Fri 7/28/2006 10:40 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)"
<bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
It's a parallel valve IO-540 built up be Performance Aero Engines. I've
got a couple of pictures of that I'll post later today or in the AM. He
wasn't over by the plane so I don't know much more.
Bob
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Fri Jul 28 09:23:09 2006
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Vern W. Smith" <Vern@teclabsinc.com>
Hi Bob,
How about an update on N325HP, did Noel use a parallel valve or angled
valve engine to get 325 hp? What are the performance numbers for the
Catto prop?
Thanks,
Vern Smith (#40324)
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bcondrey
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 8:43 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Not much to say after the engine update post from last night. We have
had some new arrivals camping at RV-10 HQ so I took a new picture of
that. Dan Lloyd is in the popup camper between the motor homes and Tim
Olson's tent is in the rear half of that site. Adrian Moses along with
a couple of friends are in tents on the other side of Gary's motorhome.
Total count right now is at 11 customer built RV-10s: Recent arrivals
include the Monarch (picture attached), Noel Simmons N325HP and Jon
Stewart's. There may be one more but I haven't seen it. Doesn't look
like we'll make John Cox's prediction of 20.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50332#50332
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_188.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/monarch_752.jpg
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Message 19
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| Subject: | OSH Update 7/28/06 |
I am eating my words as you read this and owe everyone a Cold One for
the failure of the estimate. However there were three Atrocious RV-10s
with poor workmanship which means its better to keep that number low
until the quality of build QOB comes up to VANS standards. Many builders
simply do not respond on this list.
Then again Vic, Debbie and Tim have shown how great this kit can turn
out.
John Cox - KUAO on 24 hours
________________________________
Sent: Fri 7/28/2006 8:42 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Not much to say after the engine update post from last night. We have
had some new arrivals camping at RV-10 HQ so I took a new picture of
that. Dan Lloyd is in the popup camper between the motor homes and Tim
Olson's tent is in the rear half of that site. Adrian Moses along with
a couple of friends are in tents on the other side of Gary's motorhome.
Total count right now is at 11 customer built RV-10s: Recent arrivals
include the Monarch (picture attached), Noel Simmons N325HP and Jon
Stewart's. There may be one more but I haven't seen it. Doesn't look
like we'll make John Cox's prediction of 20.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50332#50332
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_188.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/monarch_752.jpg
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Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Re: W-1011 and rear spar holes are not matched |
--> RV10-List message posted by: <jim@combsfive.com>
Jae,
My rear spar and rib have the same "issue". Drill the new holes and move on.
As they say in soccer, Play on!
Jim Combs
N312F
#40192 - Fuselage
===========================================================
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" <jc-matronics_rv10@jline.com>
This is a bit odd, and I just want to verify that this is okay. I am on
page 15-4, step 1.
When match-drilling the 2 outboard most wing step ribs (W-1011) with the
rear spar (W-1007A) and the rear spar reinforcement fork (W-1007B), the
prepunched holes in the ribs do not line up with the holes in the other
parts.
2 outboard (left) most W-1011 ribs:
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4364.html
Extra match-drill holes:
http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4365.html
It just seems strange to have these extra holes so close to the new
rivet-holes. However, all of my W-1011's have 4 pre-punched holes.
Everybody has these extra holes, right?
Thanks,
Jae
#40533
===========================================================
Message 21
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| Subject: | John's Estimate Pay Up Time . |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
John,
We again have the RV-10 builder crowd around the campsite. Your timing is impecable,
please drop by with the refreshments or supply you CC number...
Bob
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
Message 22
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| Subject: | W-1011 and rear spar holes are not matched |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" <jc-matronics_rv10@jline.com>
Jim... Response is much appreciated!
I am finding the wing plans are not flowing as well for me, for some
reason. I am scratching my head often as to the order of certain steps,
or their lack there of. Thus, I am being extra careful due to my onset
of some form of dyslexia!
Thanks again!
Jae
Do not archive
--> RV10-List message posted by: <jim@combsfive.com>
My rear spar and rib have the same "issue". Drill the new holes and
move on.
As they say in soccer, Play on!
Jim Combs
N312F
#40192 - Fuselage
Message 23
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| Subject: | W-1011 and rear spar holes are not matched |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Rene" <rene@felker.com>
Jae, if you are scratching your head now.......when you get to the fuselage
you will pull your hair out. My impression is that as you move through the
project more and more is assumed. I have gotten into the habit of reviewing
Tim's site before I start a section to better understand what is being done
in each section.
Thanks Tim for a great resource
Do not archive.
Rene'
40322
wings, fuselage and finish all at the same time.......
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jae Chang
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 8:59 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" <jc-matronics_rv10@jline.com>
Jim... Response is much appreciated!
I am finding the wing plans are not flowing as well for me, for some
reason. I am scratching my head often as to the order of certain steps,
or their lack there of. Thus, I am being extra careful due to my onset
of some form of dyslexia!
Thanks again!
Jae
Do not archive
--> RV10-List message posted by: <jim@combsfive.com>
My rear spar and rib have the same "issue". Drill the new holes and
move on.
As they say in soccer, Play on!
Jim Combs
N312F
#40192 - Fuselage
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "KiloPapa" <kilopapa@antelecom.net>
Very nice report. Thank you for taking the time.
Kevin
40494
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 7:49 PM
> RV10-List message posted by: Eric Panning <ericmpmail-rv10@yahoo.com>
>
> All,
>
> Took a look around. Here is my summary, I have pics
> too - but didn't bring the USB cable for the camera.
>
> Subaru:
> Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10
> suburu engines on Friday. I will report back what I
> learn from it. His booth was empty when I went by and
> looked like an older installed engine on display.
>
> Deltahawk:
> Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display
> and the velocity install. Claim is 180 HP version
> putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP model might not
> be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
> 0.38 [Very good]. business manager brought on board
> and comment that they regretted making statements of
> "soon to market" as it has obviously taken them
> longer. no formal discusions with Van's - comment that
> business relationship between Van's and lycoming is
> tight. 200 HP version last to come out. Needs bigger
> intercooler and even bigger turbo's. Some delivery
> slots in 2006 (all filled). Engines shipped so far are
> to beta partners (who don't seem to be talking). This
> was the best alternative engine that I saw at Oshkosh.
> note: Needs a 28V system for starter, suggestion is
> putting two batteries in series for starter, then dual
> bat for normal operation. Needed to rotate the engine
> fast enough to turn the blower fast enough to give 2
> psi boost in intake for starting. 12 V won't cut it.
>
> Mistral:
> Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not
> impressed with staff, they essentially kicked me out
> when I started asking about intermediate housing
> availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
>
> End housings looked nice, as well as reduction drive.
> Took a quick look at the exhaust system before they
> stuffed it under the table and would not let me see
> it. It is a stainless with a continuous outer shell
> (like a heat muff). Rotaries are notorious for hot
> exhausts....
>
> Claimed there are no Mazda parts, but looking at the
> engines on display they are using stock Mazda housings
> (and likely rotors). They had set up the oil delivery
> system to put oil into the cylinders per stock +
> replaced upper housing fuel injectors with oil ports.
> This seemed unusual as this would drip into the side
> housings and not the combustion chambers.
>
> Would not comment on diesel system [to me]. rotaries
> have limitations on compression greater than ~ 9 or
> 10:1 so likely spark assisted diesel. Efficiency of
> this is not as great as compression ignition but
> better than gas. BSFC for gas is roughly ~ 0.45.
>
> Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal
> with them personally. Your mileage may vary....
>
> Innodyn:
> Innodyn had an engine on static display affiliated
> with Turbine Cub (?). Looked great. BSFC claims still
> as crazy as before (Better than GE, Williams, Pratt
> and RR). Dyno data "right around the corner", just as
> it has been for the last 3 years....
> Twinpack not a current focus.
>
> Rolls Royce 250-B17F turbo shaft:
> Weight 205 lbs, Takeoff power 450 HP. 75% cruise 314
> HP at a BSFC of 0.673 = 30 gals per hr. Idles at 10
> Gals per hr. Better get those tip tanks! Length is 45"
> (at least 3 inchs two long). Cost? Well, if you have
> to ask then you can't afford it! I didn't, but I think
> it is closer to 100k (or more) than 10 k.
>
> ECi-540:
> didn't talk to them here this engine but at Arlington
> they said sometime next year. I mentioned all the
> potential customers they are missing. Price will be
> less than lycoming and I have heard low to mid 30's.
>
> Superior diesel:
> Lot's of engines on display. Size, weight and HP not a
> good match for the RV-10. Looks great on the Diamond
> Twinstar. (135 HP per side).
>
> SMA:
> didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K +
> for the Cessna 182. Seemed to be focusing on europe
> market (where diesel is a bigger advantage)
>
> E85 Ethanol:
> Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real
> info. But I hear 10% ethanol is ok for cured proseal
> but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is big issue too.
> Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per
> lb too so you are going to burn up more.. tip tanks?
>
> RV-12:
> Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings
> attached and fuselage, tail largely complete. Engine
> mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl layup.
> Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes. Comment from
> Van's that you should try them before you knock them.
> Their comment that footbrakes might add 500.
>
> I think it will sell well, looks better in person than
> their sketches online. Claim sales late 2007 and
> judging from progress so far I think it is realistic.
> Apparently they would also be doing quickbuild kits.
> "slowbuild" whole plane = RV10 tail kit. No match
> drilling either, holes puched final size.
>
> RV-10 (alex D): Took a peak at A/C install. Looks like
> they are using a P-51 style scoop under the fuselage
> for condenser cooling. Looks like it might pull in a
> fair amount of exhaust gas and oil vapor in it's
> current position. Plane looks great overall.
>
> Garmin 900X:
> If you have 67k buring a hole in your pocket and want
> a Garmin 1000 for the experimental market then they
> have the product for you. Looked fantastic. You could
> add weather for only an additional 5k. Pointed out
> that they should start working with Van's or builders
> now on an install package. From the RV-7 mock up it
> looks like you would have to cut in half all three
> firewall to panel ribs. I also mentioned that they are
> more likely to sell into the RV-10 market than RV-7.
>
> Hope you enjoyed the summary. My take is if you are
> doing a custom install then go with a rotary engine
> and buy the additional parts needed from Tracy and
> conversion concepts (mount). If you want to buy a
> complete engine, can wait until ~ late 07 (or 08) and
> want something different then I would pick deltahawk.
> If you want to be flying by next Oshkosh, pick a
> lycoming or clone :)
>
> If I learn anything from Eggenfellner talk I will pass
> it on. David Atkins gave a talk this morning about
> rotary engine conversions but I was unable to attend.
> Tracy Crook rumored to be heading up - perhaps Friday.
>
> Eric
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