---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/29/06: 40 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:57 AM - Re: Rookie questions (Chris , Susie Darcy) 2. 04:33 AM - Re: Rookie questions (Wayne Edgerton) 3. 04:47 AM - Re: Re: MT at OSH (LessDragProd@aol.com) 4. 05:23 AM - Re: Rookie questions (Kelly McMullen) 5. 05:40 AM - OSH Update 7/29/06 (bcondrey) 6. 05:58 AM - Re: Rookie questions (John W. Cox) 7. 06:00 AM - OSH count (John W. Cox) 8. 07:49 AM - Sky-Tec starter - latest update (Marcus Cooper) 9. 08:40 AM - Re: OSH count (Jeff Carpenter) 10. 08:52 AM - Re: RV-List: N710RV First Flight (John Jessen) 11. 10:03 AM - Re: OSH count (Simon Barber) 12. 10:51 AM - RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox (Deems Davis) 13. 11:58 AM - Re: RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox (John Jessen) 14. 12:00 PM - W-1007E extends beyond rear spar flange. pg 15-3 (Jae Chang) 15. 01:38 PM - Re: W-1007E extends beyond rear spar flange. pg 15-3 (Deems Davis) 16. 01:44 PM - Re: Rookie questions (John W. Cox) 17. 01:46 PM - Re: OSH Update 7/29/06 (John W. Cox) 18. 02:00 PM - Loss of Jim Wright (John W. Cox) 19. 02:07 PM - Re: Sky-Tec starter - latest update (Kelly McMullen) 20. 03:02 PM - Re: OSH Update 7/29/06 (Condrey, Bob (US SSA)) 21. 04:35 PM - Re: Throttle quadrant (Tim Olson) 22. 04:37 PM - Off-Field -10, more info (Tim Olson) 23. 04:44 PM - Re: Grand Rapids Wiring (Tim Olson) 24. 04:50 PM - Re: Starter Problem - update (Tim Olson) 25. 04:52 PM - Re: Inspection completed! (Tim Olson) 26. 04:57 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Tim Olson) 27. 05:18 PM - Re: OSH Update 7/28/06 (Tim Olson) 28. 05:21 PM - Re: W-1011 and rear spar holes are not matched (Tim Olson) 29. 05:30 PM - Re: Sky-Tec starter - latest update (Tim Olson) 30. 06:13 PM - Tunnel Temps (Russell Daves) 31. 06:19 PM - Re: Inspection completed! (Mark Ritter) 32. 06:27 PM - Re: Sky-Tec starter - latest update (Marcus Cooper) 33. 06:30 PM - Re: RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox (Tim Olson) 34. 06:47 PM - Crossbow / Pinpoint News (Tim Olson) 35. 06:53 PM - Re: Sky-Tec starter - latest update (Tim Olson) 36. 07:36 PM - Garmin 430W/530W (Tim Olson) 37. 07:56 PM - Re: RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox (Chris) 38. 08:06 PM - My Oshkosh Report (zackrv8) 39. 08:37 PM - Life after Oshkosh (ddddsp1@juno.com) 40. 10:59 PM - Re: Tunnel Temps (KiloPapa) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:57:05 AM PST US From: "Chris , Susie Darcy" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rookie questions --> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris , Susie Darcy" I see a lot of builders are putting doublers on however I didnt on my 6 and never had a problem. Might put one on the 10 not sure yet. Chris ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 11:08 AM > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Paul Grimstad" > > Sean > I'm sure your not alone as a builder / student pilot. I am enjoying the > same program. I have been told that antennas should have a doubler plate > to help disburse the vibration and avoid stress cracking of the skin. I > will also look forward to the stream on this subject. > Paul Grimstad > RV10 40450 Tailcone complete / bolting up the tail feathers > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 9:53 AM > > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: >> >> Hello all, >> >> I am one of those rare people you might consider crazy that is building a >> plane and learning to fly at the same time. Don't worry...I'll get my >> time and transition training in well before I jump into the 10. >> >> Because of my inexperience, I run into things in the build with systems >> that I do not have alot of knowledge about yet. One of these are all the >> antennaes and their placement in the airframe. >> >> Is there a list of the antennaes I will need and their possible >> locations/functions? I am well into the fuselage construction and need >> to start thinking of where to mount things and possible wire/coax runs. >> I intend to go pretty heavily on the capabilities of this plane. IFR and >> lots of glass in the panel. >> >> Thanks for any help. >> >> Sean Blair >> #40225 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:53 AM PST US From: "Wayne Edgerton" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rookie questions Sean, A lot depends on what type of flying you plan on doing. Tin Olson's web site has a list of the antennas he used. It's similar to what I've done to equip for IFR flight. Here is the link to Tim's posting on this. http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/panel/antennas/index.html Wayne Edgerton #40336 do nor archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:42 AM PST US From: LessDragProd@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: MT at OSH You need to ask. If you purchase an MT Propeller during the airshow week, there is a 10% airshow discount from list price at the MT Propeller booth. At Oshkosh and at Sun-N-Fun. Jim Ayers In a message dated 7/28/2006 8:49:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, bob.condrey@baesystems.com writes: --> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" No show special on MT that I'm aware of. Bob ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:46 AM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rookie questions --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen While not required, certainly recommended. AC43-13-2A gives details of what FAA expects on certified aircraft, as a reference. Available on web if you don't have it. Chris , Susie Darcy wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris , Susie Darcy" > > I see a lot of builders are putting doublers on however I didnt on my 6 > and never had a problem. Might put one on the 10 not sure yet. > > Chris > ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 11:08 AM > > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Paul Grimstad" >> >> >> Sean >> I'm sure your not alone as a builder / student pilot. I am enjoying >> the same program. I have been told that antennas should have a doubler >> plate to help disburse the vibration and avoid stress cracking of the >> skin. I will also look forward to the stream on this subject. >> Paul Grimstad >> RV10 40450 Tailcone complete / bolting up the tail feathers >> do not archive >> ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 9:53 AM >> >> >>> --> RV10-List message posted by: >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I am one of those rare people you might consider crazy that is >>> building a plane and learning to fly at the same time. Don't >>> worry...I'll get my time and transition training in well before I >>> jump into the 10. >>> >>> Because of my inexperience, I run into things in the build with >>> systems that I do not have alot of knowledge about yet. One of these >>> are all the antennaes and their placement in the airframe. >>> >>> Is there a list of the antennaes I will need and their possible >>> locations/functions? I am well into the fuselage construction and >>> need to start thinking of where to mount things and possible >>> wire/coax runs. I intend to go pretty heavily on the capabilities of >>> this plane. IFR and lots of glass in the panel. >>> >>> Thanks for any help. >>> >>> Sean Blair >>> #40225 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> http://wiki.matronics.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:57 AM PST US From: "bcondrey" Subject: RV10-List: OSH Update 7/29/06 --> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" Big news discovered yesterday is that the Avidyne folks will sell Integra systems for installation in an RV-10. Don't really have many details since the booth folks just found out. Price quoted at the booth was $30K for the PFD and $15K for the 5000 MFD. A lot of money for sure, but probably competitive with a G900 setup after you add radios. Just for the photo collection I've added pictures of Noel Simmons' N325HP and Jon Stewart's planes. Also an update of RV-10 HQ - it's gotten a little crowed here. Finally, a set of pictures of Stein's gas engine powered couch. We are planning on leaving mid-day today so this will probably be my last update. Bob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50526#50526 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_996.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/sofa2_109.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/stewart_754.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/n325hp_engine_170.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/n325hp_502.jpg ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:27 AM PST US From: "John W. Cox" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rookie questions One only needs to attend one of Kent White's classes at OSH (www.tinman.com) to know that 2024 has memory and it will talk back. Doublers are a requirement on Certified aircraft for a reason. Homebuilders are experimenters and the results are documented. The RV-4 builders a few years ago learned this lesson on their trailing edge, control surface rivets when they stress cracked. Every builder can do which technique they want... hence the few atrocious builds of RV-10s at OSH this year. The key phrase is YET! Doublers are simple, based in logic and compliant with the simplest rules of physics. Have fun building... I am rushing to another Kent White class on installing louvers into aluminum cowls. I would bet it will be 3003 because of the 2024 memory. Just a thought John Cox - $00.02 ________________________________ Darcy Sent: Sat 7/29/2006 2:52 AM --> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris , Susie Darcy" I see a lot of builders are putting doublers on however I didnt on my 6 and never had a problem. Might put one on the 10 not sure yet. Chris ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 11:08 AM > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Paul Grimstad" > > Sean > I'm sure your not alone as a builder / student pilot. I am enjoying the > same program. I have been told that antennas should have a doubler plate > to help disburse the vibration and avoid stress cracking of the skin. I > will also look forward to the stream on this subject. > Paul Grimstad > RV10 40450 Tailcone complete / bolting up the tail feathers > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 9:53 AM > > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: >> >> Hello all, >> >> I am one of those rare people you might consider crazy that is building a >> plane and learning to fly at the same time. Don't worry...I'll get my >> time and transition training in well before I jump into the 10. >> >> Because of my inexperience, I run into things in the build with systems >> that I do not have alot of knowledge about yet. One of these are all the >> antennaes and their placement in the airframe. >> >> Is there a list of the antennaes I will need and their possible >> locations/functions? I am well into the fuselage construction and need >> to start thinking of where to mount things and possible wire/coax runs. >> I intend to go pretty heavily on the capabilities of this plane. IFR and >> lots of glass in the panel. >> >> Thanks for any help. >> >> Sean Blair >> #40225 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:36 AM PST US From: "John W. Cox" Subject: RV10-List: OSH count Bob send me the attendance list from last night and the tab. My Paypal account is in good shape and I clearly missed the mark. With the lowered expectations in quality builds this year, I am actually glad not to have seen my 20 RV-10s. Would rather have the quality, safer aircraft and smarter builders. Rushing to class. John ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:05 AM PST US From: "Marcus Cooper" Subject: RV10-List: Sky-Tec starter - latest update Just wanted to pass on my lessons learned with the Flyweight Sky-Tec starter that failed (bent shaft designed to fail that way in the event of kickback). I did a lot of research on-line and found numerous similar problems of kickback when using at least one electronic ignition system. Many messages, including one from Sky-Tec, recommended starting the engine on the mag then turning on the electronic ignition once started, or at least after several swings of the prop. Seems like a huge hassle to me and certainly not standard. Especially when you consider one of the advantages of having an electronic ignition is easier starting, why isolate it? The reason for all of this stems from the incredible current drain from the starter. I looked at the specs on Sky-Tec's website and the flyweight (LS) model lists 185-285 amps whereas the high torque (wound vs. LS's permanent magnet) starter is 125-185 amps. So, I called Bart from Aero Sport at Oshkosh and left a message with my findings and my thought that I should upgrade starters while mine was back at his shop for repair. Without further discussion, he had Judy (still at Aero Sport, I wish the GRT folks had left someone behind to man the office during Oshkosh! I could have been flying at least a week sooner) ship me the newer High Torque Sky-Tec starter ASAP and then left me message that he agreed with my findings and was sending me the other starter (no charge!). Judy indicated that this was becoming fairly common with this setup. Lessons learned - customer support at Aero Sport is nothing short of incredible. I could not have asked for more each time I contact them. Also, I would recommend against the super lightweight Sky-Tec model if you have other than the standard factory style dual mag, non-cosmic engine monitoring system setup (just my .02 on that one). Marcus 40286 If I can ever get my GRT wired properly I'll be ready for the inspection. Anyone that knows how to get the fuel levels to read on a GRT EIS feeding the EFIS, I'd sure appreciate the info! Do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:32 AM PST US From: Jeff Carpenter Subject: Re: RV10-List: OSH count Ok John... without naming names... what specifically are you seeing that constitutes a low "quality build"... as I certainly don't want to wind up on that list when I take to the sky. Jeff Carpenter 40304 Finishing Fuel Tanks On Jul 29, 2006, at 6:00 AM, John W. Cox wrote: > Bob send me the attendance list from last night and the tab. My > Paypal account is in good shape and I clearly missed the mark. > With the lowered expectations in quality builds this year, I am > actually glad not to have seen my 20 RV-10s. Would rather have the > quality, safer aircraft and smarter builders. > > Rushing to class. > > John ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:23 AM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RV10-List: RE: RV-List: N710RV First Flight Russ, congratulations!!!!!! John Jessen do not archive _____ [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 4:42 PM First flight went off without a hitch today. Felt great. Plans are to fly every day for the next two weeks, either before or after work on the real job. Russ Daves ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:09 AM PST US From: Simon Barber Subject: Re: RV10-List: OSH count --> RV10-List message posted by: Simon Barber hi john, I too would like to know what to avoid ending up doing - since I am a first time builder. Would very much like to have a few pointers to "if it comes out like this you're doing it wrong". Simon Jeff Carpenter wrote: > Ok John... without naming names... what specifically are you seeing > that constitutes a low "quality build"... as I certainly don't want to > wind up on that list when I take to the sky. > > Jeff Carpenter > 40304 > Finishing Fuel Tanks > > > On Jul 29, 2006, at 6:00 AM, John W. Cox wrote: > >> Bob send me the attendance list from last night and the tab. My >> Paypal account is in good shape and I clearly missed the mark. With >> the lowered expectations in quality builds this year, I am actually >> glad not to have seen my 20 RV-10s. Would rather have the quality, >> safer aircraft and smarter builders. >> >> Rushing to class. >> >> John > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:42 AM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis I know this was directed to John but let me take a crack at it. My son and I just returned from OSH. BTW a MIGHTY THANKS to Bob Condrey, Gary Spectater, and Tim Olsen for organizing RV10 HQ. The highlight of the trip for me was being able to meet all of the RV-10 builders and to put names with faces. 3-4 times each day, through the contact with you guys, I learned something, valuable, that I wouldn't have learned if I hadn't been there, THANKS again to all who so willingly shared their knowledge and time. Re. the quality issue, There is no one or two specific things, that you can point to, but the quality of the workmanship is easily apparent to any builder. Seams that don't match, wrinkled metal, pop rivets holding windows to their frames, surfaces not prepared, sanded smooth/filled before painting.finishing. Wings skins not 'scarfed' per the plans, these are just a few that come to mind quickly. When looking at these planes, they scream that they were put together with speed to completion as the primary goal, pride of workmanship obviously took a holiday, and one immediately begins to ask oneself, " If these readily visible shortcuts were taken, what shortcuts that aren't so apparent were also taken?" Van makes a GREAT kit, the RV-10 plans are the best and most complete in the industry, 99.9% of the parts will almost 'put them selves together (NOT applicable to the fiberglass pieces!!!!!). I'm confident that any INDIVIDUAL OWNER/BUILDER who takes a modicum of pride in their work, and who keeps safety in front of timelines can produce planes with the quality that we saw in Tim's, Vic's and Debby's, and Mike's examples. All of the foregoing examples showed wide differences in the individuals preferences and choices, but NONE of them showed any signs of carelessness. This list is an EXTREMELY valuable source of information and knowledge regarding anything that you are not certain of. John Cox has been an outspoken proponent on this site about NOT taking shortcuts, and he is quick to call attention to anything that infringes on Safety. Seeing these quality completions @ OSH inspired me to come back home 'stay the course' and do the best job I'm capable of. THANKS again to those of you who have led the way and established the standard! Deems Davis # 406 Fuse/Finishing/Panel http://deemsrv10.com/ Simon Barber wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Simon Barber > > hi john, > > I too would like to know what to avoid ending up doing - since I am a > first time builder. Would very much like to have a few pointers to "if > it comes out like this you're doing it wrong". > > Simon > > > Jeff Carpenter wrote: > >> Ok John... without naming names... what specifically are you seeing >> that constitutes a low "quality build"... as I certainly don't want >> to wind up on that list when I take to the sky. >> >> Jeff Carpenter >> 40304 >> Finishing Fuel Tanks >> >> >> On Jul 29, 2006, at 6:00 AM, John W. Cox wrote: >> >>> Bob send me the attendance list from last night and the tab. My >>> Paypal account is in good shape and I clearly missed the mark. With >>> the lowered expectations in quality builds this year, I am actually >>> glad not to have seen my 20 RV-10s. Would rather have the quality, >>> safer aircraft and smarter builders. >>> >>> Rushing to class. >>> >>> John >> >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:58:06 AM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" Deems, thanks for this. I wrote John off line urging him to make a similar statement. Now, I don't think he really needs to. However, not being there, and often not understanding what lies behind a statement about this or that, is often extremely frustrating. We do have Tim's site and mine and yours and others to check before moving onto another section, another page, but here's what I'd really like to see happen so that as a building community we can benefit enormously from the expertise out there: When someone with technical knowledge makes a statement about a technique or procedure that is not in the plans (or even if it is in the plans and it is IMPORTANT for people to pay attention to) that they believe would be best to consider doing, because of their knowledge and expert experience of such things, for it would help not only the build quality, but especially the safety and integrity of the planes (a simple example would be fabricating and using a doubler for the antennae, which was pointed out by John), then these people need not only to raise the topic, but explain and even demonstrate what they are talking about through a series of still pictures. I would be more than happy to include these (and in fact have begun to do so) in a special section of my web site, or simply make reference to Tim's and have them all put there. In my opinion, there needs to be a list of these aircraft building pearls of wisdom, each properly documented. I know. I know. These are experimental planes and thus anyone can do, more or less, what they want. And a ton of information resides in the archives. And what is good for the airlines may not be good for or needed for GA. But...we are a community of individuals who care for each other's safety, not just quality, and each time something comes up that should be a building "must do" let's get it out in the open for all and documented. I'm probably overstating things. I just want everyone to be very well informed. Choices of engines, panel goodies, paint, etc., are up to the builder. But the airframe and how to "do it right" should be available to all. John J Tailcone -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 10:50 AM --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis I know this was directed to John but let me take a crack at it. My son and I just returned from OSH. BTW a MIGHTY THANKS to Bob Condrey, Gary Spectater, and Tim Olsen for organizing RV10 HQ. The highlight of the trip for me was being able to meet all of the RV-10 builders and to put names with faces. 3-4 times each day, through the contact with you guys, I learned something, valuable, that I wouldn't have learned if I hadn't been there, THANKS again to all who so willingly shared their knowledge and time. Re. the quality issue, There is no one or two specific things, that you can point to, but the quality of the workmanship is easily apparent to any builder. Seams that don't match, wrinkled metal, pop rivets holding windows to their frames, surfaces not prepared, sanded smooth/filled before painting.finishing. Wings skins not 'scarfed' per the plans, these are just a few that come to mind quickly. When looking at these planes, they scream that they were put together with speed to completion as the primary goal, pride of workmanship obviously took a holiday, and one immediately begins to ask oneself, " If these readily visible shortcuts were taken, what shortcuts that aren't so apparent were also taken?" Van makes a GREAT kit, the RV-10 plans are the best and most complete in the industry, 99.9% of the parts will almost 'put them selves together (NOT applicable to the fiberglass pieces!!!!!). I'm confident that any INDIVIDUAL OWNER/BUILDER who takes a modicum of pride in their work, and who keeps safety in front of timelines can produce planes with the quality that we saw in Tim's, Vic's and Debby's, and Mike's examples. All of the foregoing examples showed wide differences in the individuals preferences and choices, but NONE of them showed any signs of carelessness. This list is an EXTREMELY valuable source of information and knowledge regarding anything that you are not certain of. John Cox has been an outspoken proponent on this site about NOT taking shortcuts, and he is quick to call attention to anything that infringes on Safety. Seeing these quality completions @ OSH inspired me to come back home 'stay the course' and do the best job I'm capable of. THANKS again to those of you who have led the way and established the standard! Deems Davis # 406 Fuse/Finishing/Panel http://deemsrv10.com/ Simon Barber wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Simon Barber > > hi john, > > I too would like to know what to avoid ending up doing - since I am a > first time builder. Would very much like to have a few pointers to "if > it comes out like this you're doing it wrong". > > Simon > > > Jeff Carpenter wrote: > >> Ok John... without naming names... what specifically are you seeing >> that constitutes a low "quality build"... as I certainly don't want >> to wind up on that list when I take to the sky. >> >> Jeff Carpenter >> 40304 >> Finishing Fuel Tanks >> >> >> On Jul 29, 2006, at 6:00 AM, John W. Cox wrote: >> >>> Bob send me the attendance list from last night and the tab. My >>> Paypal account is in good shape and I clearly missed the mark. With >>> the lowered expectations in quality builds this year, I am actually >>> glad not to have seen my 20 RV-10s. Would rather have the quality, >>> safer aircraft and smarter builders. >>> >>> Rushing to class. >>> >>> John >> >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:46 PM PST US From: "Jae Chang" Subject: RV10-List: W-1007E extends beyond rear spar flange. pg 15-3 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" Hi Deems... http://www.deemsrv10.com/15-3s1-4.html I noticed on your construction log where you had a problem with the W-1007E flange being longer than the rear spar flange by 1-10". Van's actually had to ship a new rear spar for you. I have the same issue, extends beyond by 1-16" on BOTH left and right wing doublers. The pictures below show a similar issue as yours. You can see the doubler is flush against the spar in one of the pics. You can click on each of the slide photos to get the full-sized 1024x768 picture. http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4366.html http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4367.html http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4368.html http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4369.html I am wondering if anyone else had this similar issue. It did not seem like much of an issue to me, until I happened across your web page. Van's agreeing that it warranted shipment of a new rear spar, obviously, makes me nervous. Did anyone else see this issue? Thanks, Jae ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:25 PM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: Re: RV10-List: W-1007E extends beyond rear spar flange. pg 15-3 --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis Jae,The real problem is not just that the doubler extends beyong the spar cap, but when they make these parts ALL of the holes are punched/drilled prior to bending, and when the bends get made wrong, (which is what is causing the problem) it will shift all of the holes, some might be tempted to match drill lthe holes into the doubler and continue, but all of these holes will be misalligned with the skins, when it come time to put them on, check to make sure this isn't the case with the parts you get, (I'm a bit surprised to see this problem showing up in later wing kits). Deems Davis # 406 Fuse/Finishing/Panel http://deemsrv10.com/ Jae Chang wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" > >Hi Deems... > >http://www.deemsrv10.com/15-3s1-4.html > >I noticed on your construction log where you had a problem with the >W-1007E flange being longer than the rear spar flange by 1-10". Van's >actually had to ship a new rear spar for you. > >I have the same issue, extends beyond by 1-16" on BOTH left and right >wing doublers. The pictures below show a similar issue as yours. You can >see the doubler is flush against the spar in one of the pics. You can >click on each of the slide photos to get the full-sized 1024x768 >picture. > >http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4366.html >http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4367.html >http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4368.html >http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/wingkit/photos/IMG_4369.html > >I am wondering if anyone else had this similar issue. It did not seem >like much of an issue to me, until I happened across your web page. >Van's agreeing that it warranted shipment of a new rear spar, obviously, >makes me nervous. > >Did anyone else see this issue? > >Thanks, >Jae > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:34 PM PST US From: "John W. Cox" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rookie questions Correction on the website address. And by the way as of right now I have yet to spend money with them. It is www.tinmantech.com. Kent is one of the world's finest metalsmiths. He gives classes at OSH which would blow just about anyone away. Go to the EAA Airventure website and review the teaching schedule and class content. I spent most of my OSH time just absorbing from his classes. I am so confident that I am about to invest in his DVD library and will share on loan those which I purchase. Now back to John Jessen's post... no malice taken. It was a group process to view and kabitz the level of workmanship on the 9 birds at OSH. Several of those builders could care less. They care not about the intent of the 51% rule. They are motivated by financial gain. In my 34 years in aviation I have lost 16 friends and acquaintences and several were extremely close. Kent White was hired for the special project of building the HK1 Hughes Racer. Jim Wright of Oregon (and a friend) was lost due to a series of repeatable errors which should have never happened. I do not espouse the coulda, shoulda, woulda, wish I had said something approach. There are pictures which will be posted to let passionate, first time builders escape the kabitzing. Unless you understand the devastating consequence to the Lancair IV builders when just a few cut corners you have no idea how significant this corner cutting can reduce or eliminate your ability to insure your final production. I will stand up and take the hits just like I did for 23 years as an FAA Pilot Examiner. I just finished a memorial service for a comrade who died exactly one year ago. Keep pounding... Its a great kit. Never cut a corner unless you know the outcome. Ask those who heard VAN speak at dinner Thursday night. The margins built in are not to be reduced lightly. John Cox - $00.02 ________________________________ Sent: Sat 7/29/2006 5:52 AM One only needs to attend one of Kent White's classes at OSH (www.tinman.com) to know that 2024 has memory and it will talk back. Doublers are a requirement on Certified aircraft for a reason. Homebuilders are experimenters and the results are documented. The RV-4 builders a few years ago learned this lesson on their trailing edge, control surface rivets when they stress cracked. Every builder can do which technique they want... hence the few atrocious builds of RV-10s at OSH this year. The key phrase is YET! Doublers are simple, based in logic and compliant with the simplest rules of physics. Have fun building... I am rushing to another Kent White class on installing louvers into aluminum cowls. I would bet it will be 3003 because of the 2024 memory. Just a thought John Cox - $00.02 ________________________________ Darcy Sent: Sat 7/29/2006 2:52 AM --> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris , Susie Darcy" I see a lot of builders are putting doublers on however I didnt on my 6 and never had a problem. Might put one on the 10 not sure yet. Chris ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 11:08 AM > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Paul Grimstad" > > Sean > I'm sure your not alone as a builder / student pilot. I am enjoying the > same program. I have been told that antennas should have a doubler plate > to help disburse the vibration and avoid stress cracking of the skin. I > will also look forward to the stream on this subject. > Paul Grimstad > RV10 40450 Tailcone complete / bolting up the tail feathers > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 9:53 AM > > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: >> >> Hello all, >> >> I am one of those rare people you might consider crazy that is building a >> plane and learning to fly at the same time. Don't worry...I'll get my >> time and transition training in well before I jump into the 10. >> >> Because of my inexperience, I run into things in the build with systems >> that I do not have alot of knowledge about yet. One of these are all the >> antennaes and their placement in the airframe. >> >> Is there a list of the antennaes I will need and their possible >> locations/functions? I am well into the fuselage construction and need >> to start thinking of where to mount things and possible wire/coax runs. >> I intend to go pretty heavily on the capabilities of this plane. IFR and >> lots of glass in the panel. >> >> Thanks for any help. >> >> Sean Blair >> #40225 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:09 PM PST US From: "John W. Cox" Subject: RE: RV10-List: OSH Update 7/29/06 Quick Bob,send me that bar bill before the whole list signs up. I am sitting in Ohare returning west right now. John ________________________________ Sent: Sat 7/29/2006 5:39 AM --> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" Big news discovered yesterday is that the Avidyne folks will sell Integra systems for installation in an RV-10. Don't really have many details since the booth folks just found out. Price quoted at the booth was $30K for the PFD and $15K for the 5000 MFD. A lot of money for sure, but probably competitive with a G900 setup after you add radios. Just for the photo collection I've added pictures of Noel Simmons' N325HP and Jon Stewart's planes. Also an update of RV-10 HQ - it's gotten a little crowed here. Finally, a set of pictures of Stein's gas engine powered couch. We are planning on leaving mid-day today so this will probably be my last update. Bob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50526#50526 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_996.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/sofa2_109.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/stewart_754.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/n325hp_engine_170.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/n325hp_502.jpg ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:21 PM PST US From: "John W. Cox" Subject: RV10-List: Loss of Jim Wright Most should already know the story. His one of a kind replica took the finest craftsmen in every craft to make the HK-1. Many watched in amazement as it was built. At OSH we just watched it sit the whole week. Flown to OSH, parked for a week with bureaucratic red tape from the FAA which prohibited a proper fly-off. Flown back to Oregon. Refueled, one bolt led to a required forced landing. Site was identified, final approach was set. Spectators ran out to photograph. Jim diverted so as not to kill the $@&* photograpers. The rest is aviation history. Same year Shannon K flying (what in my opinion was the finest workmanship and) the prettiest Lancair Legacy 2000 EVER. Was told by his friends of a critical engine flaw. Filled with fuel. Left the same OSH as Jim. Wouldn't deviate. Lost the engine over Madison. Hit a light standard in a car dealership parking lot and cartwheeled. Leaving OSH can be risky. Listen to your inner voice. Cut no corners. Let's toast a drink of your choice at next year when we bring out the new Nanchang CJ-6 and give Tim's wife the ride of her life (after extensive fly off). Russ my hat and heart is with you on every hour. Congratulations. Flying remains a remarkable, safe and extraordinarily exciting adventure. John ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:47 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sky-Tec starter - latest update --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen You had kickback because your ignition isn't setup right. Kickback occurs when the engine fires with the normal 20-25 degrees before TDC during cranking. Any mag or electronic system that doesn't switch to firing AT TDC during cranking should be turned OFF during cranking. Engines that use a retard breaker on the left mag wire the switch to turn off the right mag during cranking. Ditto engines with only one impulse coupling. If your electronic ignition doesn't have an automatic retard during cranking, it should be grounded during cranking. The starter isn't at fault...it is the fault of the ignition design/setup. If the starter didn't have a shear pin, the kickback would likely damage the starter gear and destroy the starter. KM A&P/IA Marcus Cooper wrote: > Just wanted to pass on my lessons learned with the Flyweight Sky-Tec > starter that failed (bent shaft designed to fail that way in the event > of kickback). I did a lot of research on-line and found numerous > similar problems of kickback when using at least one electronic ignition > system. Many messages, including one from Sky-Tec, recommended starting > the engine on the mag then turning on the electronic ignition once > started, or at least after several swings of the prop. Seems like a > huge hassle to me and certainly not standard. Especially when you > consider one of the advantages of having an electronic ignition is > easier starting, why isolate it? The reason for all of this stems from > the incredible current drain from the starter. I looked at the specs on > Sky-Tecs website and the flyweight (LS) model lists 185-285 amps > whereas the high torque (wound vs. LSs permanent magnet) starter is > 125-185 amps. > > > > So, I called Bart from Aero Sport at Oshkosh and left a message with my > findings and my thought that I should upgrade starters while mine was > back at his shop for repair. Without further discussion, he had Judy > (still at Aero Sport, I wish the GRT folks had left someone behind to > man the office during Oshkosh! I could have been flying at least a week > sooner) ship me the newer High Torque Sky-Tec starter ASAP and then > left me message that he agreed with my findings and was sending me the > other starter (no charge!). Judy indicated that this was becoming > fairly common with this setup. > > > > Lessons learned customer support at Aero Sport is nothing short of > incredible. I could not have asked for more each time I contact them. > Also, I would recommend against the super lightweight Sky-Tec model if > you have other than the standard factory style dual mag, non-cosmic > engine monitoring system setup (just my .02 on that one). > > > > Marcus > > 40286 > > > > If I can ever get my GRT wired properly Ill be ready for the > inspection. Anyone that knows how to get the fuel levels to read on a > GRT EIS feeding the EFIS, Id sure appreciate the info! > > > > Do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:41 PM PST US From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" Subject: Re: RV10-List: OSH Update 7/29/06 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" We will as soon as we're finished... Bob -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld -----Original Message----- Sent: Sat Jul 29 13:44:39 2006 Quick Bob,send me that bar bill before the whole list signs up. I am sitting in Ohare returning west right now. John ________________________________ Sent: Sat 7/29/2006 5:39 AM --> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" Big news discovered yesterday is that the Avidyne folks will sell Integra systems for installation in an RV-10. Don't really have many details since the booth folks just found out. Price quoted at the booth was $30K for the PFD and $15K for the 5000 MFD. A lot of money for sure, but probably competitive with a G900 setup after you add radios. Just for the photo collection I've added pictures of Noel Simmons' N325HP and Jon Stewart's planes. Also an update of RV-10 HQ - it's gotten a little crowed here. Finally, a set of pictures of Stein's gas engine powered couch. We are planning on leaving mid-day today so this will probably be my last update. Bob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50526#50526 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_996.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/sofa2_109.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/stewart_754.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/n325hp_engine_170.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/n325hp_502.jpg =================================== =================================== =================================== =================================== ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:27 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Throttle quadrant --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson When I did the quadrant I installed the cables in a "V" shape. The two outer holes at the top, and then one centered below. I used eyeball vents. The reason for the V is just that the original 3 holes are too close together to do 3 with eyeballs. If you already enlarged them, then drilling the eyeball holes may make a mess of your firewall like I did. Just rivet a patch in place that's big enough to accomodate all 3 and drill them again and you should be fine. I had a chewed up firewall from holes running together, so I had to clean it up and put in a patch as above, which worked just fine. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Sean Blair wrote: > When installing the throttle quadrant, are the cables routed through the > firewall recess in the stock location? If not, where? I think I heard > they dont take the same route and of course already enlarged the stock > holes per the plans. Whats the fix if necessary? > > Once again..thanks! > > Sean Blair > > #40225 > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:34 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: Off-Field -10, more info --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Spoke to someone at OSH yesterday a bit on tunnel temps and the relation to that off-field landing a while back with a -10 in California. As it turned out, it sounds like vapor lock was not an issue. I heard that the valve guides on 5 of 6 cylinders were not the proper size and were too loose, and there was evidence of heat stress on the valves. So in that case they're not suspecting vapor lock as was previously contemplated. Just wanted to pass things along. I'll be shooting out some of the things that came up at OSh as I can get through the backlog of -10 list mail. Tim -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:13 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Grand Rapids Wiring --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Marcus, Sorry I couldn't reply sooner. Here's a file that you might want: http://www.myrv10.com/files/GRT/GRT_Probes_Install.tif It's a multi-page .tif and shows how to hook up most of the special probes, including that 4.8 V. source. Not sure what you might have going on the RPM readout though. I have mine directly connected to the Lightspeed from the input to the EIS 6000. Make sure Tack P/R is 3. Giving a Zero readout makes me wonder if there's not a mis-wiring issue though, or perhaps if you're grounding the keyswitch option wire on the Lightspeed and it's not firing. I only took the tach input from the lightspeed and just guess and check by ear on the mag side. So when I turn the key to turn off the lightspeed, my RPM readout drops to zero. You can hear when going to ground the mag that the lightspeed idles it at a higher RPM. The most important thing is that the engine sounds like it's not losing lots of RPM and runs smooth on the mag, so I didn't care to do the gymnastics of hooking it to both. Just FYI, here's an old (now unverified recently) list of the settings in my EIS6000. You may find it handy. Tim Aux1 ManP Aux2 LEFT Aux3 RITE Aux4 Fpsi Aux5 AMPS Aux6 Units IFG FC1 0 FC2 0 FloCal 200 FloCalR 0 Tach P/R 3 Peak 10 Max Fuel 60 HRS 29.8 Tim-RPM 0 AspdLo 0 AspdHI 0 TachLo 0 TachHi 0 1SF 198 1OFF 64 2SF 44 2OFF 119 3SF 47 3OFF 127 4SF 63 4OFF 47 5SF 93 5OFF 177 6SF 0 6OFF 0 I/D DIIDII +/- +--+++ AltCor 128 ID1 Tach IP1 1 ID2 Ax1 1P2 6 1D3 Ax2 1P3 10 1D4 CHH 1P4 14 1D5 OT 1P5 17 1D6 / 1P6 20 1D7 OP 1P7 21 1D8 Flow 1P8 24 1D9 EGH 1P9 29 1D10 OFF 1P10 0 1D11 OFF 1P11 0 1D12 OFF 1P12 0 2D1 Tach 2P1 1 1D2 Crb 2P2 6 2D3 Oat 2P3 10 2D4 CHH 2P4 14 2D5 OT 2P5 17 2D6 / 2P6 20 2D7 OP 2P7 21 2D8 Volt 2P8 24 2D9 EGH 2P9 29 2D10 Off 2P10 0 2D11 Off 2P11 0 2D12 Off 2P12 0 GD1 CHH GP1 9 GD2 EGH GP2 13 GD3 Tach GP3 17 GD4 Off GP4 0 GD5 Ax1 GP5 23 GD6 Flow GP6 29 GD7 Off GP7 0 GD8 Off GP8 0 GD9 Off GP9 0 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Marcus Cooper wrote: > I have the GRT EFIS and EIS and cant seem to brake the code on wiring > the fuel level wiring. As luck would have it, all the folks are at > Oshkosh and not available for questions. > > > > I suspect that I need to use the 4.8V source wire but I cant find how > to employ it in the instructions. Does it just get tied to the wire > going the tank level sensor? > > > > Also, when I ran the engine, my RPM showed 0. I have the signal wire > tied to the digital RPM signal from the Lightspeed output and the EIS > Tach is set to 0 for 6 cyl Lycoming. > > > > If anyone has any experience with this Id sure appreciate any and all > guidance. > > > > Marcus > > Desperately close and yet so far it seems > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:32 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Starter Problem - update --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Yeah, it looks like not much gear meshing going on. I saw the other posts about talking to aerosport and the bent shaft thing. I'll have to catch up on the thread, but if the shaft isn't bent, my next step would be to make sure it's mounted as close as it needs to be. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive John W. Cox wrote: > Marcus, I am at OSH and the connection is poor but your picture > indicates the starter is mounted about 0.25" low of the flywheel. > With the mount the way it is, I would think this starter gear has a > smaller diameter than necessary. Aerosport should be good about a > correction. > > John Cox > > ________________________________ > > Sent: Sun 7/23/2006 5:29 PM > > > > I took a hard look at the starter again and there appears to be no > damage anywhere, other than what you get when spinning parts touch > each other without engaging. No cracks, etc. I've attached a couple > pictures in case that helps someone decipher what's going on. > > > > It is a Sky-tec starter on an Aerosport IO-540A4D5. I was wondering > if there's any chance the starter comes with different size gears and > perhaps I got the smaller version? The odd thing is it worked great > for awhile. I cranked it for almost 10 seconds before I realized > fuel wasn't getting to the engine yet and it spun great. Then it > worked a few more times before the engine came to life. After that > it was nothing but trouble. > > > > Thanks, > > Marcus > > > > Do not archive > > th > > > > > > ________________________________ > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus > Cooper Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 8:07 PM > > > > I finally got to start my engine today for the first time which was > quite motivational. However, after letting it run for a couple > minutes and checking it over for leaks I tried to start it again. > This time I was greeted by a horrendous squeal and the prop not > spinning as fast as before while starting. I shut it all down and it > appears the starter is no longer engaging properly. It wore a little > of the outside aft edge of the flywheel and looks like either the > starter gear is too small, or somehow it suddenly was able to drift a > little further from the flywheel and no longer mates up properly. > The starter mount nuts look secure and the factory paint cues are > still in place so I am stumped. With the starter gear retracted it > looks like the gears will just barely overlap when it extends. > > > > I am open to any and all thoughts, theories and suggestions. > > > > Thanks, Marcus > > (was hoping to get inspected today, delayed until next weekend - > possibly more pending the engine issue) > > > > > > > > Do Not Archive > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:08 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Inspection completed! --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Mark, From what I've heard, 435 is near the max you'll see in a well set up IO-540, in a full power climb. So you're probably fine with your new engine. I've seen 217 once on a hot day long climb, but usually my Oil temp is 185-195. Don't worry as much until you put 5 hours on it and it's starting to break in a little. Those first few will be hot from what I hear. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Mark Ritter wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Mark Ritter" > > Thanks. First couple of hours went great. Oil temp (217) and a couple > of CHT's (430) a little higher than I would like but I understand they > should come down with time. Plane is flying hands off. > > Mark (N410MR) > > Do not archive > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:08 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I just got back from Van's booth and Innodyne today. I've decided to build another RV-10 and this time do it right, so I paid in full for a quickbuild -10, and paid in full for an Innodyne system. I'm sending it to our favorite Oklahoma -10 building professional so I should have my completed RV-10 to fly within a few months. (now how serious do you think I'm being?) Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive jdalton77 wrote: > Innodyn's web site says they won't have a booth of their own. > > Boy oh boy I WISH their engine was real . . . > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Tim Dawson-Townsend > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 10:40 AM > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials > > Interestingly enough, I dont see Crossflow listed on the Oshkosh > Exhibitors list! > > Innodyn is on there, though . . . > > > > TDT > 40025 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *David > McNeill > *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 10:29 AM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials > > > > Sounds like the USA based version of Crossflow? > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* RV Builder (Michael Sausen) > > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > > *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 7:16 AM > > *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials > > > > Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list > for asking him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his > H6 for the -10. One of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog > me and I responded with a very straightforward set of comments. > Jan then said he wouldnt allow one of his friends to be > publically humiliated but he apparently had no problem with a > potential customer being so. And no, he will never give dyno > numbers. He doesnt feel it is necessary. As far as > non-delivery, do a search of websites of people that have his > engines and you will find plenty of instances where he did not > meet promised delivery dates. One of his best supporters even > received the supercharger well after the engine delivery (which > was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and the complete > firewall forward package apparently wasnt so complete either. > Im sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully wont threaten > him to take down the site. > > > > My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any > type of due diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to > go with a Lycoming after spending a couple months talking to a > dozen people flying Eggs engine and hanging around on his list. > Anytime someone spoke up on that list they were slammed back > down. I was contacted by several people off list to keep asking > the hard questions because they had already ordered and were > afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status quo. > > > > Im not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best > chance of producing an alternative engine package but its time > for him to grow up his business and start PROVING the > capabilities he touts. I am also not saying that his engine > does not meet the performance he claims, after all no one has > dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to tell. > I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some > light on things. I have the full history of the email > conversations in question and anyone who wants to contact me off > list for a copy is welcome to do so. > > > > James, Im guessing you already ordered one of his engines? > If not, I strongly suggest you do some serious background > research. In reality the only thing you get from his package is > an alternative engine package that can keep MP to altitude. The > cost isnt much different, the fuel flows wont be much > different, and the performance wont be much different from a > Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value, expect it > to be much less. > > > > Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine. > > > > Michael Sausen > > RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage > > Do Not Archive > > Recent RV-10 Build Activity > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *James Clark > *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials > > > > Micheal, > > It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with > Jan. > > For those that are considering his product, this post comes > across as not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are > accusing him of non-delivery. If that is the case why not just > say what the facts are? > > I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you > request. > > James > ... no dog in this hunt > > On 7/17/06, *RV Builder (Michael Sausen) * > wrote: > > Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. > I'm shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably > not huh. Now how about some dyno numbers? > > > > Michael Sausen > > RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage > > Do Not Archive > > Recent RV-10 Build Activity > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > ] *On Behalf Of > *EAAINC@aol.com > *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials > > > > I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have > turbocharged 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale > at Oshkosh this year. Deliveries are available for December > with 50% deposits. > > > > Jan > > > > > -- > This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at > james@nextupventures.com . > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:05 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: OSH Update 7/28/06 --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Don't forget Paul and Jesse who's planes both left me feeling very comfortable with their workmanship. They both looked very nice. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive John W. Cox wrote: > I am eating my words as you read this and owe everyone a Cold One for > the failure of the estimate. However there were three Atrocious > RV-10s with poor workmanship which means its better to keep that > number low until the quality of build QOB comes up to VANS standards. > Many builders simply do not respond on this list. > > Then again Vic, Debbie and Tim have shown how great this kit can turn > out. > > John Cox - KUAO on 24 hours > > ________________________________ > > Sent: Fri 7/28/2006 8:42 AM > > > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" > > > Not much to say after the engine update post from last night. We > have had some new arrivals camping at RV-10 HQ so I took a new > picture of that. Dan Lloyd is in the popup camper between the motor > homes and Tim Olson's tent is in the rear half of that site. Adrian > Moses along with a couple of friends are in tents on the other side > of Gary's motorhome. Total count right now is at 11 customer built > RV-10s: Recent arrivals include the Monarch (picture attached), Noel > Simmons N325HP and Jon Stewart's. There may be one more but I > haven't seen it. Doesn't look like we'll make John Cox's prediction > of 20. > > Bob > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50332#50332 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_hq_188.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/monarch_752.jpg > > > > > > > ==================================== > ==================================== > ==================================== > =================================== > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:21 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: W-1011 and rear spar holes are not matched --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson You're very welcome, and you're welcome again too to all of the people who expressed their thanks at OSH. I really enjoy helping in the way that I am most able. My most interesting thank you of the week came from Mr. "Flash" Gordon, who's building a -10 in IL. He's a Chicago Center controller who's worked OSH a few years and gave me the very kindly surprise of the gift of one of the pink OSH "Tower" controller shirts. It's one of those things that brings a huge smile, and I'll never forget. For you all though, don't feel that you owe me anything....because it's from other builders that I got the ability to build the -10. I could not have done it as well without those who have gone before...especially Randy. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Rene wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Rene" > > Jae, if you are scratching your head now.......when you get to the fuselage > you will pull your hair out. My impression is that as you move through the > project more and more is assumed. I have gotten into the habit of reviewing > Tim's site before I start a section to better understand what is being done > in each section. > > Thanks Tim for a great resource > > Do not archive. > > Rene' > 40322 > wings, fuselage and finish all at the same time....... > 801-721-6080 > > > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jae Chang > Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 8:59 PM > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" > > Jim... Response is much appreciated! > > I am finding the wing plans are not flowing as well for me, for some > reason. I am scratching my head often as to the order of certain steps, > or their lack there of. Thus, I am being extra careful due to my onset > of some form of dyslexia! > > Thanks again! > Jae > Do not archive > > --> RV10-List message posted by: > > My rear spar and rib have the same "issue". Drill the new holes and > move on. > > As they say in soccer, Play on! > > Jim Combs > N312F > #40192 - Fuselage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:50 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sky-Tec starter - latest update --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Hey again Marcus, I think I have the HT version of starter from Aerosport, with no problems. Bart suggested it, initially, when I poked around looking for starter choices. As for the keyswitch wiring, I'm having great luck with the wiring that I have, and it allows me to start on the Lightspeed, and is also starting with the Mag. I don't think this is a problem, as the lightspeed should be self-retarding and advancing based on MP. I'm no expert, but it's worked well and I'm now only 3 hours away from 100. Not all people are comfortable with the keyswitch wiring, due to the mysterious grounding...very hard to explain without opening that can of worms again. Anyway, it works fine for me and shuts down the mags properly, so until I can find a better keyswitch not designed to ground the right mag during start, I'm sticking with it. I wish you lots of luck and keep me posted. As for your fuel tank wiring, I shot you some stuff off a bit ago and hopefully it'll help. If you're getting stuck, you can call me as I'll be around now since I'm home from OSH. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Marcus Cooper wrote: > Just wanted to pass on my lessons learned with the Flyweight Sky-Tec > starter that failed (bent shaft designed to fail that way in the event > of kickback). I did a lot of research on-line and found numerous > similar problems of kickback when using at least one electronic ignition > system. Many messages, including one from Sky-Tec, recommended starting > the engine on the mag then turning on the electronic ignition once > started, or at least after several swings of the prop. Seems like a > huge hassle to me and certainly not standard. Especially when you > consider one of the advantages of having an electronic ignition is > easier starting, why isolate it? The reason for all of this stems from > the incredible current drain from the starter. I looked at the specs on > Sky-Tecs website and the flyweight (LS) model lists 185-285 amps > whereas the high torque (wound vs. LSs permanent magnet) starter is > 125-185 amps. > > > > So, I called Bart from Aero Sport at Oshkosh and left a message with my > findings and my thought that I should upgrade starters while mine was > back at his shop for repair. Without further discussion, he had Judy > (still at Aero Sport, I wish the GRT folks had left someone behind to > man the office during Oshkosh! I could have been flying at least a week > sooner) ship me the newer High Torque Sky-Tec starter ASAP and then > left me message that he agreed with my findings and was sending me the > other starter (no charge!). Judy indicated that this was becoming > fairly common with this setup. > > > > Lessons learned customer support at Aero Sport is nothing short of > incredible. I could not have asked for more each time I contact them. > Also, I would recommend against the super lightweight Sky-Tec model if > you have other than the standard factory style dual mag, non-cosmic > engine monitoring system setup (just my .02 on that one). > > > > Marcus > > 40286 > > > > If I can ever get my GRT wired properly Ill be ready for the > inspection. Anyone that knows how to get the fuel levels to read on a > GRT EIS feeding the EFIS, Id sure appreciate the info! > > > > Do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:47 PM PST US From: "Russell Daves" Subject: RV10-List: Tunnel Temps Second flight today in N710RV. Checked the forward tunnel area for high temps. Used the bare leg method. Stuck my bare left leg up against the tunnel wall and held it there for at least five minutes. No problem, even confirmed after landing that I still had hair on my leg (just in case my 33 month build had killed the nerves in the leg and I didn't feel the heat). After hearing all the tunnel heat issues raised in the posts I did the following: 1. Bought a roll of engine gasket material at NAPA and cut out gaskets to install between the firewall and the heat vent boxes. (Don't remember for sure but I think this tip came from Tim Olson as 90% of the my help tips have - Thanks Tim). 2. Installed an RTV gasket around the inside of the heat vent doors after install by beading the RVT around the opening, placing a piece of wax paper over the RTV and closing the door with the cable. After setup of the RTV I removed the wax paper and re-closed the door. (Install tip from Jesse Saint - Thanks Jesse). 3. RTV'ed around the outside of each heat vent box. 4. Installed foil faced insulation on the bottom of the tunnel floor and over the inside of the firewall (used this method on my RV-6A firewall after it was built and it made a huge difference). I did not build a false floor in the tunnel, only put the insulation up to the edge of the fuel flow transducer and fuel pump. 5. Installed sound proofing foam insulation under the floor and on the sidewalls. Hope these tips help. By the way N710RV flies like a dream. Working on wheel pants and gear leg fairings between flights. Russ Daves ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:13 PM PST US From: "Mark Ritter" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Inspection completed! --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:58 PM PST US From: "Marcus Cooper" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Sky-Tec starter - latest update --> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper" Tim, Thanks for all of the info, as always you have been a great help. I tried wiring my switch like yours and it worked great and it still will shut the engine down when turned off. I rewired the RPM sensor to feed from the mag and that worked well also. On another list I got the recommendation to install a switch to alternate the RPM signal source so you can validate the mag drop. The only snag is the signals are different pulse rates (mag vs electronic ignition) so one of the signals will be twice the other so a little mental math will be required. Did you inspector balk at your setup at all since you can't check the RPM on just the mag? The EIS programming info is awesome! Thanks again, Marcus Do not archive -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 8:30 PM --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Hey again Marcus, I think I have the HT version of starter from Aerosport, with no problems. Bart suggested it, initially, when I poked around looking for starter choices. As for the keyswitch wiring, I'm having great luck with the wiring that I have, and it allows me to start on the Lightspeed, and is also starting with the Mag. I don't think this is a problem, as the lightspeed should be self-retarding and advancing based on MP. I'm no expert, but it's worked well and I'm now only 3 hours away from 100. Not all people are comfortable with the keyswitch wiring, due to the mysterious grounding...very hard to explain without opening that can of worms again. Anyway, it works fine for me and shuts down the mags properly, so until I can find a better keyswitch not designed to ground the right mag during start, I'm sticking with it. I wish you lots of luck and keep me posted. As for your fuel tank wiring, I shot you some stuff off a bit ago and hopefully it'll help. If you're getting stuck, you can call me as I'll be around now since I'm home from OSH. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Marcus Cooper wrote: > Just wanted to pass on my lessons learned with the Flyweight Sky-Tec > starter that failed (bent shaft designed to fail that way in the event > of kickback). I did a lot of research on-line and found numerous > similar problems of kickback when using at least one electronic ignition > system. Many messages, including one from Sky-Tec, recommended starting > the engine on the mag then turning on the electronic ignition once > started, or at least after several swings of the prop. Seems like a > huge hassle to me and certainly not standard. Especially when you > consider one of the advantages of having an electronic ignition is > easier starting, why isolate it? The reason for all of this stems from > the incredible current drain from the starter. I looked at the specs on > Sky-Tec's website and the flyweight (LS) model lists 185-285 amps > whereas the high torque (wound vs. LS's permanent magnet) starter is > 125-185 amps. > > > > So, I called Bart from Aero Sport at Oshkosh and left a message with my > findings and my thought that I should upgrade starters while mine was > back at his shop for repair. Without further discussion, he had Judy > (still at Aero Sport, I wish the GRT folks had left someone behind to > man the office during Oshkosh! I could have been flying at least a week > sooner) ship me the newer High Torque Sky-Tec starter ASAP and then > left me message that he agreed with my findings and was sending me the > other starter (no charge!). Judy indicated that this was becoming > fairly common with this setup. > > > > Lessons learned - customer support at Aero Sport is nothing short of > incredible. I could not have asked for more each time I contact them. > Also, I would recommend against the super lightweight Sky-Tec model if > you have other than the standard factory style dual mag, non-cosmic > engine monitoring system setup (just my .02 on that one). > > > > Marcus > > 40286 > > > > If I can ever get my GRT wired properly I'll be ready for the > inspection. Anyone that knows how to get the fuel levels to read on a > GRT EIS feeding the EFIS, I'd sure appreciate the info! > > > > Do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:00 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Deems says it well here. There is no ONE thing. There's such a variety. Most of the time, we're not talking cosmetics, although doing a really shoddy job cosmetically never wins you points. Most of the things that get pointed out negatively are things where someone obviously was in a hurry, or really showed a lack of care...not just the occasional newbie bucking bar ding. If a builder just builds to plans, and uses all the acceptable practices for things, they have nothing to fear. People like Ray Doerr show up without any paint at all, rivet lines scuffed and ready. Nobody criticizes him because his workmanship is good, and he took care on his project. The care thing really shows on fiberglass parts, when you obviously don't sand things well, or don't trim wingtips and make them match the trailing edge. On aluminum, it'll be things like not deburring things, consistently denting your skins along rivet lines, or not seating rivets by not dimpling skins enough...sometimes cosmetic, and sometimes structural issues. For electrical, at OSH 2005 for example, I saw an entire bundle of wires snaked down through the forward slot in the tunnel cover, laying snugly against the sharp metal edge of the tunnel cover....which by other indications on the airframe was probably not deburred much or at all. It's a recipe for disaster, and doesn't follow any acceptable practice. As Deems says, it's stuff that any builder who thinks about, and puts care into building, would notice. It should also be noted that at this show, OSH 2006, I was able to see workmanship of such a level that I do not know if I could live up to it...even on my 2nd or 3rd build of an RV-10. Debbie Dewey's RV-10 is absolutely about as perfect as you can get. In almost every spot of her airframe, when you pay attention to the minute details, you see perfection in those details. Engine baffling quality, trailing edge smoothness where you can't even see that it's 2 skins, feathering fiberglass to aluminum transitions, fit and finish of fairings...things like that. Professional paint jobs, and professional interiors are just icing on the cake, not the things that are judged by builders... nor weighed heavily by contest judges. But in her case, the underlying airplane was built to very exceptionally high standards... standards to which most of us will dream, but not achieve. Not that this makes ours bad. I had the experience of having my airplane judged this year. It was very interesting. Lots of judges saw it, but I did not get any awards. Would have been cool, but there are reasons I did not get them. My airplane has been described as having great workmanship, being very pretty, having nice paint, and all sorts of things. But it truly isn't an award winning showplane...and if you remember my comments in past posts during the build, that's not what I built it for. To toot my own horn for a second, which I rarely like to do actually, I think of my airplane more as an example of good workmanship that is of a level that any builder should be able to accomplish without going above and beyond by too far. I would think that any of you could build one as nice, and many of you will build them nicer. I learned though, that to be a showplane, there is a level of detail that gets so precise that I think it would be a stretch for a first-time builder in most cases to win an award. One of the judges walked around with me and showed me the minor things that cause people to drop out. Very minor... things like a flap attach bolt put in from the wrong direction. But in the above discussion, we're not talking about the things that keep a person from winning an award....those things may not BE obvious to the average builder...they weren't to me, that's for sure. The things we're talking about are things that the average builder could see when they walk up to the plane. So take some comfort in the fact that if you're careful, you probably don't have much to worry about on the RV-10 to end up with a very airworthy plane. I am very happy with what I have, and how it flies, and it's built to a standard that I'm comfortable with. It seems to look nice, too. Hopefully you all can use what you learn on this forum to make yours come out even nicer. Example Tip: When you set flush rivets, drag a fingernail over them, and if you snag it on the edge of that rivet, it's probably not set deep enough. A few of these are fine, but don't let it be a habit....dimple better. If you can't dimple it any better, take that hole and very lightly run a countersink tool around a couple times to help the rivet lay flush...you want the whole rivet angle making good contact. Build on, and just work to high standards. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Deems Davis wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis > > I know this was directed to John but let me take a crack at it. My son > and I just returned from OSH. BTW a MIGHTY THANKS to Bob Condrey, Gary > Spectater, and Tim Olsen for organizing RV10 HQ. The highlight of the > trip for me was being able to meet all of the RV-10 builders and to put > names with faces. 3-4 times each day, through the contact with you guys, > I learned something, valuable, that I wouldn't have learned if I hadn't > been there, THANKS again to all who so willingly shared their knowledge > and time. > Re. the quality issue, There is no one or two specific things, that you > can point to, but the quality of the workmanship is easily apparent to > any builder. Seams that don't match, wrinkled metal, pop rivets holding > windows to their frames, surfaces not prepared, sanded smooth/filled > before painting.finishing. Wings skins not 'scarfed' per the plans, > these are just a few that come to mind quickly. When looking at these > planes, they scream that they were put together with speed to completion > as the primary goal, pride of workmanship obviously took a holiday, and > one immediately begins to ask oneself, " If these readily visible > shortcuts were taken, what shortcuts that aren't so apparent were also > taken?" Van makes a GREAT kit, the RV-10 plans are the best and most > complete in the industry, 99.9% of the parts will almost 'put them > selves together (NOT applicable to the fiberglass pieces!!!!!). I'm > confident that any INDIVIDUAL OWNER/BUILDER who takes a modicum of pride > in their work, and who keeps safety in front of timelines can produce > planes with the quality that we saw in Tim's, Vic's and Debby's, and > Mike's examples. All of the foregoing examples showed wide differences > in the individuals preferences and choices, but NONE of them showed any > signs of carelessness. This list is an EXTREMELY valuable source of > information and knowledge regarding anything that you are not certain > of. John Cox has been an outspoken proponent on this site about NOT > taking shortcuts, and he is quick to call attention to anything that > infringes on Safety. Seeing these quality completions @ OSH inspired me > to come back home 'stay the course' and do the best job I'm capable of. > THANKS again to those of you who have led the way and established the > standard! > > Deems Davis # 406 > Fuse/Finishing/Panel > http://deemsrv10.com/ > > > Simon Barber wrote: > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Simon Barber >> >> hi john, >> >> I too would like to know what to avoid ending up doing - since I am a >> first time builder. Would very much like to have a few pointers to "if >> it comes out like this you're doing it wrong". >> >> Simon >> >> >> Jeff Carpenter wrote: >> >>> Ok John... without naming names... what specifically are you seeing >>> that constitutes a low "quality build"... as I certainly don't want >>> to wind up on that list when I take to the sky. >>> >>> Jeff Carpenter >>> 40304 >>> Finishing Fuel Tanks >>> >>> >>> On Jul 29, 2006, at 6:00 AM, John W. Cox wrote: >>> >>>> Bob send me the attendance list from last night and the tab. My >>>> Paypal account is in good shape and I clearly missed the mark. With >>>> the lowered expectations in quality builds this year, I am actually >>>> glad not to have seen my 20 RV-10s. Would rather have the quality, >>>> safer aircraft and smarter builders. >>>> >>>> Rushing to class. >>>> >>>> John >>> >>> >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> http://wiki.matronics.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:40 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: Crossbow / Pinpoint News --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson OSH brought me a time to get more forward-looking news on the AHRS problems of late 2005 and 2006, and I thought I'd pass on a couple of quick things. First, today I got some very disappointing news from a fellow Chelton flyer. He left OSH and called me after his first leg. He's flying a Crossbow 425EX that had previously been sent in and "fixed" and returned to service. Previously I had heard that there were 3 issues with the 425EX AHRS, two of which would affect RV-10's and 1 of which would more affect composite planes. They thought they had found the fixes and fixed those two issues, but today's story indicates differently. The pilot reported that the compass heading (at the top of the screen) rotated slowly around 360 degrees every couple of minutes, even though the plane was in straight and level flight. In talking with people further, I learned that this is one of the known failure modes of the instrument that would probably be noticed within about a 45 minute leg. If that leg were continued for a longer time, it would get worse, and eventually lead to a forward rolling display, or possibly even flying backwards through the HITS boxes. So, obviously it's not completely "fixed" and owners are still encouraged not to fly IFR with the "fixed" units. News on the Pinpoint: My pinpoint testing has been going well. I thought I hadn't noticed any issues at all, but on the day I left for OSH I noticed a strange Airspeed readout while at a standstill. I brought this up and found out the good news that had already been caught, and taken care of for the production units (I'm flying an engineering unit right now as part of a test team) and that with the positive results of the testing that the production units are now starting to come out for distribution. I was going to jump on a production unit but have decided to get my unit replaced with a unit that not only has the production items in it, but some additional enhancements as well that will need to now undergo some additional testing. To date, in flight I have never noticed any issues with the pinpoint, so other than some testing when I get a new unit, I'm going to start flying in IMC as required from here on out. Once everyone's back from OSH, I should be receiving the new unit and I'll pass on info as to how it works. I've heard that the first lot of production units should help fill a lot of need by the flying and almost flying builders. -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:08 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sky-Tec starter - latest update --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson No, the DAR didn't have a problem with it. He sat in the plane for a WOT run-up and I just explained that the tach signal can only come from one of the two sources due to the difference in pulse count. He didn't have any issue with it, especially since I had the explanation handy. Hope the EIS info turns out helpful. If you need me to, I'll go back and recheck all of the values to current. Those I think were done after it was working well, but before I calibrated my fuel flow transducer. I'm still confused though why you got a zero reading from the lightspeed. Ultimately, I guess it doesn't matter which source you use, but I kind of think of the lightspeed as more "accurate" just because it's digital. Who knows.... Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive > Did you inspector balk at your setup at all since you can't check the RPM on > just the mag? > > The EIS programming info is awesome! > > Thanks again, > Marcus > > Do not archive > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:46 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: Garmin 430W/530W --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson With all the fuss recently at OSH about the G900, I didn't hear anyone mention Garmin's new (in the future) 430W and 530W WAAS capable GPS/Nav/Com's that will replace the regular 430/530. I was surprised to hear that the 430W was $10750 and the 530W was $16495. Doesn't this strike you as odd that it's way higher in price than the original boxes? And to think that people used to balk at the "high" price of the GNS480 that I paid less than $9,000 for. If the pricing of the 480 is the same right now, it may be time to grab one before they do something stupid like phase it out. Wonder what street price will be... -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:06 PM PST US From: "Chris" Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Quality @ OSH -w/ appoligies to John Cox --> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris" If you want some documented guidance on flush rivet requirements check this link out. http://home.flash.net/~gila/rivet_spec/rivet_a.htm#TABLE%20IV Chris Lucas #40072 (section 28-9) ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 9:29 PM > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > Deems says it well here. There is no ONE thing. There's such a > variety. Most of the time, we're not talking cosmetics, although > doing a really shoddy job cosmetically never wins you points. > Most of the things that get pointed out negatively are things > where someone obviously was in a hurry, or really showed a lack > of care...not just the occasional newbie bucking bar ding. If a > builder just builds to plans, and uses all the acceptable > practices for things, they have nothing to fear. People like > Ray Doerr show up without any paint at all, rivet lines scuffed > and ready. Nobody criticizes him because his workmanship is > good, and he took care on his project. The care thing really > shows on fiberglass parts, when you obviously don't sand things > well, or don't trim wingtips and make them match the trailing > edge. On aluminum, it'll be things like not deburring things, > consistently denting your skins along rivet lines, or not > seating rivets by not dimpling skins enough...sometimes cosmetic, > and sometimes structural issues. For electrical, at OSH 2005 > for example, I saw an entire bundle of wires snaked down through > the forward slot in the tunnel cover, laying snugly against > the sharp metal edge of the tunnel cover....which by other > indications on the airframe was probably not deburred much > or at all. It's a recipe for disaster, and doesn't follow > any acceptable practice. As Deems says, it's stuff that any > builder who thinks about, and puts care into building, would > notice. > > It should also be noted that at this show, OSH 2006, I was > able to see workmanship of such a level that I do not know > if I could live up to it...even on my 2nd or 3rd build of > an RV-10. Debbie Dewey's RV-10 is absolutely about as perfect > as you can get. In almost every spot of her airframe, when > you pay attention to the minute details, you see perfection in > those details. Engine baffling quality, trailing edge smoothness > where you can't even see that it's 2 skins, feathering fiberglass > to aluminum transitions, fit and finish of fairings...things like > that. Professional paint jobs, and professional interiors are > just icing on the cake, not the things that are judged by builders... > nor weighed heavily by contest judges. But in her case, the > underlying airplane was built to very exceptionally high standards... > standards to which most of us will dream, but not achieve. Not > that this makes ours bad. > > I had the experience of having my airplane judged this year. > It was very interesting. Lots of judges saw it, but I did > not get any awards. Would have been cool, but there are reasons > I did not get them. My airplane has been described as having > great workmanship, being very pretty, having nice paint, and > all sorts of things. But it truly isn't an award winning > showplane...and if you remember my comments in past posts during > the build, that's not what I built it for. To toot my own > horn for a second, which I rarely like to do actually, I think > of my airplane more as an example of good workmanship that is > of a level that any builder should be able to accomplish without > going above and beyond by too far. I would think that any of > you could build one as nice, and many of you will build them > nicer. I learned though, that to be a showplane, there is a > level of detail that gets so precise that I think it would be a > stretch for a first-time builder in most cases to win an > award. One of the judges walked around with me and showed me > the minor things that cause people to drop out. Very minor... > things like a flap attach bolt put in from the wrong direction. > But in the above discussion, we're not talking about the > things that keep a person from winning an award....those things > may not BE obvious to the average builder...they weren't to me, > that's for sure. The things we're talking about are things > that the average builder could see when they walk up to the > plane. So take some comfort in the fact that if you're careful, > you probably don't have much to worry about on the RV-10 to > end up with a very airworthy plane. I am very happy with > what I have, and how it flies, and it's built to a standard > that I'm comfortable with. It seems to look nice, too. Hopefully > you all can use what you learn on this forum to make yours > come out even nicer. > > Example Tip: When you set flush rivets, drag a fingernail over > them, and if you snag it on the edge of that rivet, it's probably > not set deep enough. A few of these are fine, but don't > let it be a habit....dimple better. If you can't dimple it > any better, take that hole and very lightly run a countersink > tool around a couple times to help the rivet lay flush...you > want the whole rivet angle making good contact. > > Build on, and just work to high standards. > > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > do not archive > > > Deems Davis wrote: >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis >> >> I know this was directed to John but let me take a crack at it. My son >> and I just returned from OSH. BTW a MIGHTY THANKS to Bob Condrey, Gary >> Spectater, and Tim Olsen for organizing RV10 HQ. The highlight of the >> trip for me was being able to meet all of the RV-10 builders and to put >> names with faces. 3-4 times each day, through the contact with you guys, >> I learned something, valuable, that I wouldn't have learned if I hadn't >> been there, THANKS again to all who so willingly shared their knowledge >> and time. >> Re. the quality issue, There is no one or two specific things, that you >> can point to, but the quality of the workmanship is easily apparent to >> any builder. Seams that don't match, wrinkled metal, pop rivets holding >> windows to their frames, surfaces not prepared, sanded smooth/filled >> before painting.finishing. Wings skins not 'scarfed' per the plans, these >> are just a few that come to mind quickly. When looking at these planes, >> they scream that they were put together with speed to completion as the >> primary goal, pride of workmanship obviously took a holiday, and one >> immediately begins to ask oneself, " If these readily visible shortcuts >> were taken, what shortcuts that aren't so apparent were also taken?" Van >> makes a GREAT kit, the RV-10 plans are the best and most complete in the >> industry, 99.9% of the parts will almost 'put them selves together (NOT >> applicable to the fiberglass pieces!!!!!). I'm confident that any >> INDIVIDUAL OWNER/BUILDER who takes a modicum of pride in their work, and >> who keeps safety in front of timelines can produce planes with the >> quality that we saw in Tim's, Vic's and Debby's, and Mike's examples. All >> of the foregoing examples showed wide differences in the individuals >> preferences and choices, but NONE of them showed any signs of >> carelessness. This list is an EXTREMELY valuable source of information >> and knowledge regarding anything that you are not certain of. John Cox >> has been an outspoken proponent on this site about NOT taking shortcuts, >> and he is quick to call attention to anything that infringes on Safety. >> Seeing these quality completions @ OSH inspired me to come back home >> 'stay the course' and do the best job I'm capable of. THANKS again to >> those of you who have led the way and established the standard! >> >> Deems Davis # 406 >> Fuse/Finishing/Panel >> http://deemsrv10.com/ >> >> >> Simon Barber wrote: >> >>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Simon Barber >>> >>> hi john, >>> >>> I too would like to know what to avoid ending up doing - since I am a >>> first time builder. Would very much like to have a few pointers to "if >>> it comes out like this you're doing it wrong". >>> >>> Simon >>> >>> >>> Jeff Carpenter wrote: >>> >>>> Ok John... without naming names... what specifically are you seeing >>>> that constitutes a low "quality build"... as I certainly don't want to >>>> wind up on that list when I take to the sky. >>>> >>>> Jeff Carpenter >>>> 40304 >>>> Finishing Fuel Tanks >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2006, at 6:00 AM, John W. Cox wrote: >>>> >>>>> Bob send me the attendance list from last night and the tab. My >>>>> Paypal account is in good shape and I clearly missed the mark. With >>>>> the lowered expectations in quality builds this year, I am actually >>>>> glad not to have seen my 20 RV-10s. Would rather have the quality, >>>>> safer aircraft and smarter builders. >>>>> Rushing to class. >>>>> John >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >>> http://wiki.matronics.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> http://wiki.matronics.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:36 PM PST US From: "zackrv8" Subject: RV10-List: My Oshkosh Report --> RV10-List message posted by: "zackrv8" Guys, I just got back from OSH 2006. I'm sorry I missed the Rv10 get-togethers. It would have been neat to put the faces with the names. I did however, get to meet a very tall yet unassuming man alongside of his RV10. Tim Olson. Conversing with Tim put me over the edge and I went with the 3 screen Chelton. Thanks Tim! Direct-To thanks you too! I wandered around all of the RV10's I could find on Thursday and Friday and took some pics. They are posted below. Very interesting on the wide range of quality of work. It is very plain to see the 10's that stood out. Hope all you ten builders out there appreciate the guys like Tim and the others (too many to name) that help us RV10 builders out with their websites and advice. Now, let's put our collective wits together and come up with a solution to the HTS (Hot Tunnel Syndrome), not just a band-aid. The highlight of Oshkosh 2006 for me was the F-22 Raptor demonstration. Hope you guys who went to OSH got to see it. Joe "Zack" Czachorowski (tail, wings done, working on the fuselage) -------- RV8 #80125 RV10 # 40512 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50659#50659 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc05510_263.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc05509_305.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc05497_170.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc05492_593.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc05469_100.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc05463_919.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc05448_532.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc05445_131.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc05442_162.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc05434_153.jpg ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:49 PM PST US From: "ddddsp1@juno.com" Subject: RV10-List: Life after Oshkosh Wow....what a pleasure to meet so many RV 10 builders and see some great craftmanship. Just got home and unpacked ........read my 142 emails an d cant wait to get started sanding more fiberglass wheel pants. I want to say what a great time it was drinking beer at the Vans picnics and he aring John Cox's RV 10 tweak list........great ideas. I now need to org anize all the builder cards i was given so when those questions arise I can CALL and get an 2nd opinion from one of the many talented builders o n this list. John C. Only 358 days left till Oshkosh 2007............I am betting 10 0 RV 10 planes at Airventure 2007! Hopefully I am in that 100 list! Keep building (your best quality work), Dean 40449 ________________________________________________________________________ Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!

Wow....what a pleasure to meet so many RV 10 builders and see s ome great craftmanship.  Just got home and unpacked ........read my 142 emails and cant wait to get started sanding more fiberglass wheel p ants.  I want to say what a great time it was drinking beer at the Vans picnics and hearing John Cox's RV 10 tweak list........great ideas.   I now need to organize all the builder cards i was given so when those questions arise I can CALL and get an 2nd opinion from one of the many talented builders on this list. 

John C.  Only 358 days left till Oshkosh 2007............I am be tting 100 RV 10 planes at Airventure 2007! Hopefully I am in that 100 li st!  

Keep building (your best quality work),

Dean

40449



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 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:44 PM PST US From: "KiloPapa" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Tunnel Temps Russ, What kind of foil faced insulation did you use? What was the actual insulating material? Where did you buy it? Thanks, Kevin 40494 ----- Original Message ----- From: Russell Daves To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 6:11 PM Subject: RV10-List: Tunnel Temps Second flight today in N710RV. Checked the forward tunnel area for high temps. Used the bare leg method. Stuck my bare left leg up against the tunnel wall and held it there for at least five minutes. No problem, even confirmed after landing that I still had hair on my leg (just in case my 33 month build had killed the nerves in the leg and I didn't feel the heat). After hearing all the tunnel heat issues raised in the posts I did the following: 1. Bought a roll of engine gasket material at NAPA and cut out gaskets to install between the firewall and the heat vent boxes. (Don't remember for sure but I think this tip came from Tim Olson as 90% of the my help tips have - Thanks Tim). 2. Installed an RTV gasket around the inside of the heat vent doors after install by beading the RVT around the opening, placing a piece of wax paper over the RTV and closing the door with the cable. After setup of the RTV I removed the wax paper and re-closed the door. (Install tip from Jesse Saint - Thanks Jesse). 3. RTV'ed around the outside of each heat vent box. 4. Installed foil faced insulation on the bottom of the tunnel floor and over the inside of the firewall (used this method on my RV-6A firewall after it was built and it made a huge difference). I did not build a false floor in the tunnel, only put the insulation up to the edge of the fuel flow transducer and fuel pump. 5. Installed sound proofing foam insulation under the floor and on the sidewalls. Hope these tips help. By the way N710RV flies like a dream. Working on wheel pants and gear leg fairings between flights. Russ Daves