Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:12 AM - Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today (Russell Daves)
2. 04:06 AM - no subject (Rob Kermanj)
3. 05:16 AM - Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today (Wayne Edgerton)
4. 05:18 AM - Proseal being used (Wayne Edgerton)
5. 06:17 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant - Trying to end it (Tim Olson)
6. 06:34 AM - Insurance and what I had to do to get coverage. (Doerr, Ray R [NTK])
7. 06:59 AM - Re: conditional inspections (Rick)
8. 07:14 AM - Re: BMA EFIS 1 For Sale ((-Phil-))
9. 07:21 AM - Re: conditional inspections (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
10. 07:27 AM - Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today (GRANSCOTT@aol.com)
11. 07:36 AM - Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
12. 07:53 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
13. 07:55 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
14. 08:02 AM - Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today (Lockamy, Jack L)
15. 08:02 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
16. 08:19 AM - Hartzell Propeller - Crate Size and Shipping Weight (Larry Rosen)
17. 08:19 AM - Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People (John Jessen)
18. 08:24 AM - Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today (John W. Cox)
19. 08:27 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant (linn Walters)
20. 08:33 AM - Survey of the day: windshield visors (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
21. 08:40 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant (Rick)
22. 08:43 AM - Re: test pilot (Dan Masys)
23. 08:44 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant - Trying to end it (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
24. 08:58 AM - Re: 40Hrs & Numbers (Scott Schmidt)
25. 09:03 AM - Re: Re: test pilot (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
26. 09:11 AM - Re: Crossbow / Pinpoint News (Mike Smith)
27. 09:13 AM - Re: Proseal being used (KiloPapa)
28. 09:15 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant (John W. Cox)
29. 09:24 AM - Re: Rookie questions (John W. Cox)
30. 09:27 AM - Re: Proseal being used (KiloPapa)
31. 09:29 AM - Re: 40Hrs & Numbers (John W. Cox)
32. 09:42 AM - A fantastic flight, and Week - Long, but positive (Tim Olson)
33. 09:42 AM - Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today (Bill DeRouchey)
34. 09:51 AM - Re: Survey of the day: windshield visors (Tim Olson)
35. 09:57 AM - Re: insurance requirements (Dan Masys)
36. 09:57 AM - Re: 40Hrs & Numbers (Tim Olson)
37. 10:02 AM - Re: Survey of the day: windshield visors (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
38. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: insurance requirements (Phillips, Jack)
39. 11:17 AM - Lycoming Suffix Information (Albert Gardner)
40. 11:24 AM - Re: A fantastic flight, and Week - Long, but positive (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
41. 11:57 AM - Re: Lycoming Suffix Information (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
42. 12:01 PM - Re: Lycoming Suffix Information (Phillips, Jack)
43. 12:33 PM - Re: Re: Lycoming Suffix Information ()
44. 12:49 PM - Re: Altering the Exhaust? (ddddsp1@juno.com)
45. 01:37 PM - Re: Re: Altering the Exhaust? (Tim Olson)
46. 02:14 PM - more on conditional inspections .... again (linn Walters)
47. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: Altering the Exhaust? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
48. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: Altering the Exhaust? (ddddsp1@juno.com)
49. 04:18 PM - Re: conditional inspections (John Gonzalez)
50. 04:21 PM - Re: Survey of the day: windshield visors (KiloPapa)
51. 04:48 PM - Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People (Jack Sargeant)
52. 05:00 PM - Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today (Jack Sargeant)
53. 05:04 PM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant (Jack Sargeant)
54. 06:19 PM - Re: conditional inspections (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
55. 07:29 PM - AF3500 (Robert G. Wright)
56. 07:56 PM - Re: Re: Altering the Exhaust? (Tim Olson)
57. 10:19 PM - Re: Re: Altering the Exhaust? (Deems Davis)
58. 10:22 PM - Re: AF3500 (Rick)
59. 10:25 PM - Re: Re: MT at OSH (LessDragProd@AOL.COM)
60. 10:32 PM - Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People (Rick)
61. 10:38 PM - Re: Re: MT at OSH (Rick)
62. 10:40 PM - Re: conditional inspections (Rick)
63. 10:42 PM - Re: X-plane model (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
64. 11:35 PM - Official RV10-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
65. 11:48 PM - Official RV10-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Russell Daves" <dav1111@cox.net>
I insured my RV-10 with AIG through NationAir, who has carried my insurance
on various airplanes for over 10 years. My insurance binder DID NOT require
any RV-10 transition training and I added my buddy as a named pilot for no
extra charge. I have in excess of 1400 hours (254 in an RV-6A), Instrument
Rating, High Performance, and Complex Aircraft signoffs. I also have NO
INSURANCE claims in my history.
My buddy is a CFI, aerobatics competitor flying a YAK, with 2400 plus hours.
I added Randy as a named insured to allow him to do some of the flyoff
hours. Randy is a school teacher and provided me an extra pair of hands
this summer while he was on break and not working a second job.
I insured N710RV for $200,000 hull value with $100.00 deductible and 1 Mil
liability. The premium is $3,710.00 per year.
If someone gets a quote from an agent who tells you all insurance companies
REQUIRE transition training in the RV-10, without regards to the insured's
prior experience, the agent isn't doing you a very good job in negotiating a
deal with the insurance company. An aviation insurance agent is your
negotiator with the insurance company. If he or she is doing you a good job
they will shop the coverage and negotiate you a better deal. The key is to
start working with a good agent at least two months before you want the
insurance coverage to allow them time to do their thing. It not a lot
different than buying a car, if you walk in say you want that car and you
want it today you WILL PAY a much higher price.
Russ Daves
N710RV - RV-10 Flying
N65RV - RV-6A Sold
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:48 PM
Choices for test pilot:
1) me, 260 hour pilot, instrument rating. Only real experience in C-172 and
Warrior. Ten hours transition training in RV-10.
2) one of a few professional test pilots I know. Hours in the thousands.
Types in the dozens. Conceptually, zero hours in the RV-10.
The irony is that option 1) would be covered by our insurance. Option 2)
would not be covered, unless I pay the test pilot to fly down to TX and then
pay for him to fly with Alex for 10 hours. That's probably $2000 and having
to fine someone who doesn't mind using one of their weekends to go to TX . .
.
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Mon 7/31/2006 9:32 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
There are a number of highly skilled For Hire Pilots who will make the
initial flight and help establish the OCF quack list. Operational Check
Flight. Make sure they know both your make of airframe and your
specific model. Test Pilots are a bold breed.
Fly within the FAA designated restricted OCF area until you know it is
working fine. You might lose power and have to land before you planned.
Get frequent EAA Tech Advisor inspections along the build process.
John $00.02
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:49 PM
Ask your insurance agent who is required crew for the 10? Unless you
like going bare I would ask the agent not the FAA.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 9:23 AM
today
James,
Nothing in the rule says it has to be the builder to fly off
the hours, To the contrary lot's of people hire a "test pilot" to fly
off several of the hours. Another misnomer is that only one person can
be in the aircraft during flyoff but it is actually "required crew".
Michael
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James K Hovis
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:23 AM
today
I have to ask a question about the "build to order" aircraft:
Who's flying off the 25 hrs? I think it boils down to who it is applying
for the initial airworthiness certificate, is it the "owner"-the guy who
ordered the "build to order" or is it the builder? As it is now, my
interpretation of the 51% rule leads me to believe the owner-builder has
to be the one who makes the original application for the airworthiness
cert and he/she should be the one who flies off the test period hours.
And the initial registration named owner should match to builder-owner
on the airworthiness cert. I think looking at these things would
probably identify those who are violating the 51% rule fairly quickly,
if a "complete" aircraft is sold before the test period is over raises a
real red flag to me. But, what's to limit some guy from building an
airplane, flying off the test period quickly, and then selling the
airplane? Does this "qualify" as a "build to order" shop? I think the
sale of complete RV-10's especially makes it rather lucrative to cheat
the system. Yes, I know I asked about value before, but my motive wasn't
for a quick sale, but to see if future market would support re-couping
my investment should I decide to build/buy something else a few years
down the road.
The Feds can pretty well see who it is that's "building to
order". As quoted somewhere in this thread someone was saying he could
turn around an airplane in three months. That's a major red flag the
Feds should be looking for. A raid on that person's operation may be in
order. I think turning over four or more kit airplanes a year would
definitely qualify a person as a "professional" aircraft builder
requiring full conformity to Part 23 and Part 21. Perhaps that's the
solution, only one or two airworthiness certs can be issued to any one
individual unless they hold or are also applying for a production cert
under Part 21 within a year.
As Tim points out, keeping a good builder's log and when
asked by your DAR is your BEST (and probably ONLY) proof that YOU did
the work to put your dream together. Those yayhoos paying some guy to
build their airplane and then telling the Feds they built them is only
hurting the rest of us who want to do it right. What I'm afraid of is
the typical knee-jerk reaction the Feds typically have and we'll end up
with a draconian rule that totally hurts the aviation
homebuilder/experimenter.
James K. Hovis
On 7/31/06, Wayne Edgerton <wayne.e@grandecom.net> wrote:
One way that the FAA might possible be able to curb the
"build to sell" crowd would be to put a time line on when a newly built
plane could be sold or owners changed. As an example lets say the plane
couldn't be sold to a new owner until 6 or 12 months after the hours are
flown off or until it has so many hours on it like 300 hours. Then allow
a waiver to this in the case of certain conditions such as death of the
builder or maybe hell freezing over, something along those lines.
Wayne Edgerton #40336
Engine work
do not archive
===================================
===================================
===================================
===================================
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Guys, lighten up! This is supposed to a forum for discussions and
information, not personal arguments.
do not archive
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today |
I think they are building them, registering it in their name, flying off
the time and then selling it. And the argument could be made that he
built it, registered it and then decided to sell it, which is completely
legal but I think not the intent of the reg.
Wayne Edgerton #40336
do nor archive
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Proseal being used |
I see your point there, that would look pretty tacky. I was meaning to
put it on before the plane is painted. Actually in my case to have the
painter use it to seal around the windows or anywhere else that is
needed before he paints it.
Wayne Edgerton # 40336
do not archive
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Atrocious - Long Rant - Trying to end it |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I feel a bit bad because I launched the original thread, and it's
kind of gone off the deep end a bit. I'd like to quickly clarify.
First, I just read the post from Linn Walters this a.m. and he said
it very well. I can tell he gets the point 100%.
The initial post was referring to awful quality, but mainly directed
towards those who build the plane for someone else, not for themselves.
I guarantee that even the pridefull builder who diligently worked to
make his plane beautiful, will recognize some flaws in their plane.
It's hard to get things perfect....did anyone notice the difference
between my passenger door rear seam and Debbie's in Deems's photos?
Some of that stuff is hard to perfect. So sure, you build yourself
a -10 and people are going to notice it at OSH...the good and the
bad. Don't feel like you have to be perfect. I know mine didn't
hold a candle to Debbie's, but I'm still very happy with how it
turned out.
As for the list readers, if you're reading this list, then you're
probably not at all one of the people who would skimp on the
effort to do it right in the first place. You're here trying
to learn from posts, possibly as a lurker, and even that is
admirable that you care that much to filter out the daily junk
for the weekly gem. The concern was more for those who were
both violating the 51% rule, and building to low standards, which
as most would agree would not be a good thing for anyone. I didn't
care to name names, as it wasn't necessary. I feel bad that Jesse's
name was ever involved. He does good work and has a great plane.
In his case my only hope is that the builders "assist" is truly
that, where the builder actually goes to Ecuador and actually
does complete the FAA's required checklist of items if he's to
be named on the repairman's cert. I don't know much about the
operation, but my gut feeling is that these first 2 planes that
they've done have been more of a "proof of concept" and training
period....not that they're going full-scale into it yet. Done
correctly and legally, it could be a respectable builders assist.
So don't feel attacked, even though some strong words get
tossed around. The builder who isn't rushing and sacrificing
quality to make the "big show" is doing just great. I know it
was painful for people like Scott Schmidt to go to OSH and see
ANY RV-10's there, knowing his meticulous kit was still
waiting on the ground at home. Thankfully he has the patience
to do it right.
Jeff Morgan had a good post last night too. I think we should
try to get back on the positive for a while, so I'll follow
up with another post a bit later if I can squeeze in a little
trip story. One thing regarding the campfire discussions though,
it should be known that the issues that we saw with some of
the planes actually run deeper than what was discussed on-list.
I won't go into public, textual detail about the flaws, but
please understand that in at least a couple of situations,
after talking with the builder a bit, the items that were
being overlooked in the interest of flying to OSH were definite
airworthiness mechanical issues....things that should
have been taken care of before a X/C flight. Ask yourself....
if you had an engine problem, where you KNOW something is
wrong, and you KNOW you could ruin your engine....would you
fly it across the US? So try not to let yourself slide into
the situation where you're so opposed to negative conversation
that you would rather not see a discussion about such things.
One last note on negativity: What's the most negative
thing you can read in most magazines? How about "I learned
about flying from that", or "Never Again" articles...
Personally, these are the real gems that I read every month.
I've actually BEEN in the situations in IFR/Marginal VFR
where the thought has went through my head "You know, if
I'm not careful, I could end up as one of those stories,
or worse, not be able to write one ever again." The slap
in the face negativity can have some good effects sometimes.
That's really my intent if I ever speak that way.
Again, thanks for following the thread even when it goes
haywire....the people who care enough to be here and learn
are not the ones being targeted and probably have nothing
to worry about. Keep up the diligent work!
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
linn Walters wrote:
> Since I'm on a roll, lemme take a shot!!!
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Insurance and what I had to do to get coverage. |
Once I had my RV-10 ready for first flight, I was only a 115
hour private pilot. I had 11 hours in my RV-9 (Constant speed) and 40
hour in a Cessna 175 with a 180 HP and constant speed prop and the rest
in 150's and 172's. Also since my RV-9 had an off field landing because
of Vapor Lock and flipped over, which totaled it, the insurance
companies did not want to insure me. So what could I do? I had a
couple of friends of mine fly off the 25 hrs. One way a 757 pilot and
an examiner. The other was his son which flies A-10's in the Air Force.
Between the two of them they tagged teamed the 25 hour fly off. The
insurance company did not require them to have time in type since they
have flown many RV's and aerobatic airplanes like a S2B Pitts. Once the
25 hrs were flown off, I started getting dual in my own RV-10 since from
an insurance perspective, the test pilots were on the policy and are the
Pilot in Command while I'm receiving dual. After 2 hours of dual with
my examiner friend, he signed off my high performance. Now I was able
to log PIC for each hour of dual I was receiving in my own plane. I
logged 25 hrs this way, while the insurance company wanted my to have
200 - 250 total time and an Instrument Rating. At this point, I
contacted a different broker to get quotes with my current 150 hours
total time. He was able to get quotes from two companies, the quotes
were high, but I was able to get them. And one was from the same
company I was already with (AIG). So two different underwriters from
AIG required different qualifications. So now I approached the
underwriter at AIG explaining we were able to get quotes from two other
companies along with one from Avemco. She finally came back the next
day and said they would cover me as is and required me to have 15 hours
of dual, which I now had 25+ and then had to have 10 hours solo before
carrying passengers. I knocked those 10 hours of solo off Friday night
and Saturday, then flew my whole family in it to Canada for a 2 week
summer vacation, then to Oskosh 2006 for 3 days.
So I guess what I'm saying is don't give up when it comes to
insurance companies, possibly look at other brokers.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
40250
N519RV (Flying)
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 11:41 PM
Tim,
I think there is another option, slim though it may be at the moment.
Get another RV-10 pilot who DOES have time in type to do some or all of
the testing. Over time there will be more people with RV-10 time and the
insurance companies will be happy with them. You can get them covered
**probably** without anyincrease in policy as it appears your time would
be the guiding factor on the rate.
Of course there would need to be an undersanding between the two of you
.. "Save **my* SKIN, then *your* TIN".
I have two instances where I did this for friends and was FULLY covered
by their policies (by name). In one case I was much younger and the
other I had much more experience in type, so the rate did not increase.
Don't know how close you are to finishing or how close you are to
someone who could/would do it. Nor do I have any idea as to whether this
is something you would consider. I just wanted to note it for the
record.
James
On 7/31/06, Tim Dawson-Townsend <Tdawson@avidyne.com> wrote:
Choices for test pilot:
1) me, 260 hour pilot, instrument rating. Only real experience in C-172
and Warrior. Ten hours transition training in RV-10.
2) one of a few professional test pilots I know. Hours in the
thousands. Types in the dozens. Conceptually, zero hours in the RV-10.
The irony is that option 1) would be covered by our insurance. Option
2) would not be covered, unless I pay the test pilot to fly down to TX
and then pay for him to fly with Alex for 10 hours. That's probably
$2000 and having to fine someone who doesn't mind using one of their
weekends to go to TX . . .
TDT
40025
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | conditional inspections |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
John you crack me up with those Joda quotes :)
Rick S.
40185
I love a good fight....from a distance. I like Mr. John Cox, a true gentlemen and
quite dashing!!!
do not archive
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: BMA EFIS 1 For Sale |
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Large
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 9:31 PM
Subject: RV10-List: BMA EFIS 1 For Sale
It's likely that I'll be selling my BMA EFIS 1 after I look at the
Garmin 900x if anyone is interested. I'm only going to Oshkosh on
Saturday and should be back Sun night. It's a dual screen and includes
the autopilot. Do Not Archive
Eric Large
catalyticeric@yahoo.com
(616) 395 9374
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | conditional inspections |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
My turn to chime in on this. :) Yes ideally the insurance would only
kick in if the A&P made a mistake. Unfortunately we know that nowadays
everyone gets sued because some idiot spills his coffee and rolls the
plane into a death spiral while trying to clean it up.
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:32 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters
--> <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Ah, now we get down to the reall nitty gritty. It boils down to
liability insurance ...... which would only kick in if there was a
mistake made, something important overlooked ...... the fear of making a
mistake???? You made a PERSONAL decision not to use your training, and
yet you bashed those that don't feel PERSONALLY as you do. That's a
shame, in my book. But I do see your point. Lousy A&Ps are why I do
all my own work ..... supervised by knowledgeable A&Ps of course when
required ..... on my factory builts. I've been had by lousy A&P
attention to detail, and had an off-field landing due to an incompetent
A&P. There are good A&P/IAs ...... and bad ones, but that's no
different than doctors, lawyers or car mechanics. The pain comes in
finding out which ones are which.
Linn
do not archive.
Kelly McMullen wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
>
> Yup, I won't sign for an aircraft other than my own, because I refuse
> to pay the $12,000 other IA's in the area are paying for liability
> insurance.
> KM
> A&P/IA
>
> John W. Cox wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox"
>> --> <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>>
>> I do play one in real life. And several friends who are current IAs
>> are giving it up due to insurance (>$8,000 per year). At OSH, there
>> was a great seminar on financial liabilities of A & Ps touching kit
>> built aircraft.
>>
>> Don't bet on having one help in a pinch. Select one, cultivate a
>> relationship. Share your knowledge. Help. Learn. Fly Safe. Fly into
>> old age gracefully. That Repairman Certificate evaporates when you
>> stop working on the exact aircraft it was issued on. It is
non-transferable.
>> An A & P is only good while you maintain education, proficiency and
>> have the appropriate tools and manuals.
>>
>> Seek guidance on the construction and maintenance of a great POH and
>> Conditional Maintenance Manual. It can save big bucks down the road.
>>
>> John Cox
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today |
Russ,
When talking to my Falcon agent they said the premium will be based on
several items, pilot experience (recent), ratings, hull value, and seat on board.
In the RV 10 there are 4 seats in an experimental, Van's have a pretty good
safety record especially compared to a Cirrus but most other Van's have been
VFR basic aircraft...most fatal accidents were due to pilot errors--like
running out of gas etc. Now that the RV 10 is flying that will mean that the
group will be IFR, flying an aircraft that is moving a lot faster than many other
4 seaters out there. Cirrus was pretty high on the learning curve with a
high initial rash of fatal accidents by low time, inexperienced pilots many
with freshly minted IFR ratings flying equipment they were barely familiar
with.
Let's hope that by being a "true" builder, many RV 10 pilots will be much
more familiar with their aircraft and avionics that will be a 200 hour freshly
IFR Cirrus pilot. But only time will tell the true safety record of building
vs. buying.
In the next 10 years there will be more Van's flying than Cirrus and
probably a lot of other companies planes built in the past 20 years. Piper and
Cessna are just barely building planes compared to historic numbers and Mooney,
and the other boutique builders are building just enough planes to go from
Chapter 11 to Chapter 11's. Between the RV 6,7,8,9, 10 and 12's there will be
a
huge fleet of Vans that insurance companies will be keenly interested in
selling insurance. But if the current owners begin crunching the experimentals
with fatal accidents then the pool will get muddied quickly and rates will be
horrific.
As the RV 10 group grows there is an opportunity for a group to form of RV
10 folks ala the MAPA group with transition training, and safety seminars that
rotates about the US. One can work with the insurance providers and get the
seminar certified as an insurance rate reducing venture.
I'm sure while Van's wants to continue growing, they want the group to grow
with them safely and that they have a group of individual builders and Van's
probably does not want be a feed stock for a cottage industry skirting the
51% rule. It would not be in there best interest having the FAA in Oregon
dictating policy how they operate plus they would have additional liability
knowing that they are a subcontractor to an aviation production company.
Currently, the 51% rule and liability are somewhat in the hands of the Van's
builders. If one goes into a cottage industry, whether here or offshore,
that will muddy the 51% rule even further. Getting a group of "buyer" fake 51%
rule pilots stepping up from a C 172 with low time and new or no IFR rating
will be a disaster for all Van's owners, IMHO.
Patrick
do not archive
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Aircraft Wiring for Smart People |
HOW DARE YOU! Oh wait, I agree with you. I think Bob's book is worth
every dime for guys like me that are strictly laymen. I personally
don't see it as a bible like many others and I have criticized people
over on that list for putting him on a pedestal. His list has a lot of
good discussions as long as you can separate the wheat from the chaff
but there is a whole lot of cheerleading. It does seem to be going to
his head a bit as his discussions are turning more philosophical than
actually useful. But I digress. The Aeroelectric Connection is really
just a collection of very old and well proven design philosophies but
nothing ground shattering.
As for Greg's book, I too attended his seminar at the 2005 Airventure
and read his whitepaper. Good stuff also. It's funny how a little feud
started between Greg and Bob a while back witch spawned Greg's paper.
Is either approach wrong, not really. They just represent different
design philosophies.
Michael
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Dawson-Townsend
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 4:16 PM
Not to be blasphemous, but has anyone else found "The AeroElectric
Connection" somewhat anti-climatic, compared to the way it is often
talked about as a document right up there with the Bible, the
Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence? It seems to have
some areas in need of an update, and a lot of focus on plastic
airplanes. Certainly there's some good information in there, but you'd
think the thing could walk on water . . .
TDT
40025
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Reining
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:04 PM
I attended a workshop given by Greg Richter of Blue Mountain Avionics on
Saturday at Oshkosh entitled "Aircraft Wiring for Smart People". It was
excellent. Each member of the audience was given a 39 page handout at
the start of the forum, which served as the basis for the lecture.
While you may not agree on all the recommendations it contains (such as
using a 28V system), it sure does provide good information for planning
and implementing your system. For those of you who missed this forum,
here's the link to the same handout, available as a PDF file on the Blue
Mountain Avionics website.
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/aircraft_wiring_04december2004.p
df
By the way, be sure to also visit the AeroElectic website:
http://www.aeroelectric.com <http://www.aeroelectric.com/> , and
purchase their excellent book on the same subject: "The AeroElectric
Connection".
Bill Reining
RV-10 40514
Tail Cone
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Atrocious - Long Rant |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
What keeps getting missed here is what we are discussing is building an
aircraft for resale. Not for learning and not for enjoyment. I don't
think anyone has criticized, at least openly, the work of another
builder who is doing it for the fun of it. Neither is anyone condemning
seeking out professional help, John Cox was even clear his intention is
to offer builders assistance.
Seeing how the foil comment was aimed at me, I just want to point out I
already said that it was temporary. However the reason I picked on this
aircraft is because it went up for sale and it had MANY other lapses in
quality. If these guys are going to build aircraft for resale, and
possibly cause all of us to eventually loose this privilege, I feel they
are open game. Not to mention if anyone is trolling this list for
information on a specific plane for sale, I think they should know about
the quality. I am certainly not building a perfect aircraft and doubt I
will meet the standards set by the likes of Debbie or John Stewart.
I don't think you made anyone mad with your email and I know I always
welcome different POV's.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Jeffery J. Morgan" <jmorgan@compnetconcepts.com>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant
>Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 23:24:34 -0500
>
>So, maybe just me and my cynical and critical eye reading all these
>emails, but I find it ironically troubling (there are two words
>together that you don't see too often), that so many builders would
>take such a critical eye (heavy on the criticism) about the folks with
>shoddy workmanship, yet the same group blasts the folks that seek out
>the help of professionals. How can you have your cake and eat it too?
>
>Here is my take on this. I am a new builder and going to make new
>builder mistakes. I am taking my time (way more than I would like at
>times as I tend to be impatient), but it is for the good of the cause.
>I want to build quality. However, that being said, there are many
>tasks and skills that are new to me and lo and behold, I promise to the
>world that I will have my blemishes as well! I might have more than a
>couple too!
>
>I will work to make the primarily safe and secondarily cosmetically
>acceptable so that I don't get beat up once I fly my baby to OSH.... I
>hope that I would not want to fly it to OSH for fear of the critics
>walking around judging what they feel is good versus okay. In my life
>I have learned through many experiences that good looking doesn't
>equate to good deal. I would way rather have the good deal, rather
>than good looking. After all we are talking about safety, which is the
>cornerstone of our insurance rates. I would rather see some cracked
>paint on an airplane than a cracked skin! Who wouldn't?
>
>So back to my first paragraph, I am not trying to explain or defend
>what has been posted. I think that we should all look to make things as
>constructive as possible and look to share, which is what I like about
>this group. I talked to the folks with the "shoddy looking foil" on
>the plane. It was temporary so that they could fly to OSH. It was also
>an experiment in learning to see what worked and what didn't. It isn't
>right to try and judge that as a finish project, when we can all see
>that the project never really ends as we update and change our minds.
>Heck check out eBay and all kinds of avionics on there that were king
>of the crop at one time.
>
>Everyone gets to decided what is good and what is not when they walk
up.
>All I would ask is that if you have a suggestion, you share it in a
>direct and polite manner. Heck I would love to have someone tell me all
>the mistakes not to make and how to hide the ones I do. I would guess
>that the folks that showed up at OSH and didn't pass the campfire test
>where the folks that aren't working to end the 51% rule. Why must we
>publicly flog them? Here is a thought, make a suggestion how to make
>sure that paint doesn't crack, or say what you felt wasn't adequate
>with the design when you suggest it isn't okay. Also talk about your
>time and results so that we can all learn. After all this whole plan
>it to build a plane so that you learn.......
>
>I agree that some things need work, but at the same time, I have been
>staring at things and just not been sure what to do. Here is how to
>fix that so that we all benefit. The stuff I saw was little and most
>of it didn't compromise safety. That is key, and at times, I think we
>loose that. I don't want to too loose that, and want to bring in the
>best of all worlds. The planes will only get better. I hate to think
>that there would be a time that one person wouldn't feel comfortable to
>bring up their mistakes and solicit suggestions without fear of being
>bashed for not "doing it right".
>
>As we fight to protect the 51% rule, we must also be willing to let
>folks make mistakes. Not allowing that is what leads to the outsourcing
>and violations that we are seeking to stop!
>
>Sure I have made some mad. Hope I hear why I am not right, as I am
>willing to have the discussion for the sake of learning!!!
>
>Thanks
>Jeff
>
>________________________________
>
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
>Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:28 PM
>
>
>Yes, I started this so let's bring it full circle with complete
>disclosure. For many builders, Please except my apologies here.
>
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Atrocious - Long Rant |
Sure, I can end it right now.
Hey guys, what kind of primer should I use?
Michael LMAO
do not archive
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:46 AM
Holy cow! Will this rant ever end?
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
do not archive
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today |
The "buyer" can still do any/all of the maintenance on the airplane. An
A&P is NOT required for maintenance on the aircraft, however the buyer
could elect to hire an A&P is he so desires or is not comfortable doing
a particular maintenance task. An A&P is only required to sign off the
Annual Condition Inspection as the "buyer" does not hold the Repairman
Certificate for that particular aircraft.
Jack
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Atrocious - Long Rant |
How about them Red Sox? Go Big Papi!
Maybe I will paint a big mural of David Ortiz on the side of our plane .
. .
TDT
40025
Do not archive
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:55 AM
Sure, I can end it right now.
Hey guys, what kind of primer should I use?
Michael LMAO
do not archive
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:46 AM
Holy cow! Will this rant ever end?
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
do not archive
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Hartzell Propeller - Crate Size and Shipping Weight |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
Just picked up my Hartzell prop. For the archives the package is 88" x
10" x 16" and the shipping weight is 84 pounds. The freight charge for
terminal pick up at Old Dominion's in Philadelphia was $112.45.
I ordered the prop from Vans the end of May, it was scheduled for
delivery on 8-1-06 which is exactly when it arrived.
Larry Rosen
#356
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Aircraft Wiring for Smart People |
Go here (http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html) to see
Nuckolls take on the issues. I'm not a promoter of either, nor am I able to
tell "right" from "wrong." Just trying to determine which philosophy to
favor more. I've taken Nuckolls seminar and almost walked out during the
first day because it seemed more about Bob than about substance. But I also
sat and had dinner with Bob and his wonderful wife, and talked to him in
depth about a new curriculum and how to approach it. He was very well aware
that the seminars needed to be updated. I do like his book and do like that
his training efforts have made a difference in many respects for
homebuilders. I learned from him and am still learning. I don't know
anything about Richter, other than he was kind enough to discuss
developmental issues with my son while Greg was in the throes of bringing
out the BM in its early days. Not many would be open to discussion during
development. Ask Rob. He and his crew have been overwhelmed with work.
Hard to answer probing questions when you are in the development/test phase.
So, because of that, I have respect for Richter. Different flavors. Smart,
hard working people. Glad they're both around.
John J
Thinking about static air.
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 7:35 AM
HOW DARE YOU! Oh wait, I agree with you. I think Bob's book is worth
every dime for guys like me that are strictly laymen. I personally don't
see it as a bible like many others and I have criticized people over on that
list for putting him on a pedestal. His list has a lot of good discussions
as long as you can separate the wheat from the chaff but there is a whole
lot of cheerleading. It does seem to be going to his head a bit as his
discussions are turning more philosophical than actually useful. But I
digress. The Aeroelectric Connection is really just a collection of very
old and well proven design philosophies but nothing ground shattering.
As for Greg's book, I too attended his seminar at the 2005 Airventure and
read his whitepaper. Good stuff also. It's funny how a little feud started
between Greg and Bob a while back witch spawned Greg's paper. Is either
approach wrong, not really. They just represent different design
philosophies.
Michael
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Dawson-Townsend
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 4:16 PM
Not to be blasphemous, but has anyone else found "The AeroElectric
Connection" somewhat anti-climatic, compared to the way it is often talked
about as a document right up there with the Bible, the Constitution, and the
Declaration of Independence? It seems to have some areas in need of an
update, and a lot of focus on plastic airplanes. Certainly there's some
good information in there, but you'd think the thing could walk on water . .
.
TDT
40025
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Reining
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:04 PM
I attended a workshop given by Greg Richter of Blue Mountain Avionics on
Saturday at Oshkosh entitled "Aircraft Wiring for Smart People". It was
excellent. Each member of the audience was given a 39 page handout at the
start of the forum, which served as the basis for the lecture. While you
may not agree on all the recommendations it contains (such as using a 28V
system), it sure does provide good information for planning and implementing
your system. For those of you who missed this forum, here's the link to the
same handout, available as a PDF file on the Blue Mountain Avionics website.
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/aircraft_wiring_04december2004.pdf
By the way, be sure to also visit the AeroElectic website:
http://www.aeroelectric.com <http://www.aeroelectric.com/> , and purchase
their excellent book on the same subject: "The AeroElectric Connection".
Bill Reining
RV-10 40514
Tail Cone
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | -10's for sale in quantity, available today |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Linn, I respect your opinion and would just like to restate what should
become more obvious to kit build owners. Each year and especially over
the next ten, a significant percentage of A & P mechanics with IA
designation are retiring. Many are dropping out due to unreasonably
high insurance rates and increasing risk.
The FAA held a seminar on Aging Certified Aircraft at OSH. These risks
are increasing, the payment received is not. Homebuilts have a
statistically much higher chance of accident and fatalities. When an
owner/builder/repairman sells his prized asset it is seldom with the
volumes of clear, concise instruction for the continued airworthiness of
a certificated production aircraft or with a trained, informed Customer
Service rep back at the factory (required by the FAA). They are all One
of a Kind beauties in the eye of the seller. Their documentation is
often a joke.
I think it is wonderful that you have such a mechanic. Are you aware if
he/she might be operating without insurance. Many are. The statement
an airplane is an airplane is unfortunately naively vague. Many
homebuilders gain needed information on continued airworthiness by word
of mouth not through factory guidance. The documentation is frequently
woefully inadequate. I have many close friends who own warbirds and
face such an extreme cost to maintain those great aged assets they look
for Pen 'N Ink Annual Inspections.
Keep up your optimism but my friends at work will enjoy reading about
your respect for their professionalism. If the pay was commensurate,
more might stay.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:09 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters
<pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Sorry Kelly, but I respectfully disagree. If I was an A&P, I'd be
rather put out with your characterization. An airplane is an airplane,
and the training that an A&P has applies to systems and construction no
matter if it's assembled by an amateur or an airplane company. I would
expect that an A&P would apply the same basic inspection technique for a
Piper 100 hr. or annual inspection to an experimental ...... which would
check all the basic systems. It's what he's trained to do. It's what
he's paid to do. There are a lot of experimentals at my airport that
aren't owned by the builder, and the A&Ps that inspect my certificated
aircraft, also inspect those experimentals. I don't think of them as
ignorant, without a clue, or fools. I think of them as professionals
that they are, and am open minded enouth to learn from them.
Linn
do not archive
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Atrocious - Long Rant |
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> Sure, I can end it right now.
>
> Hey guys, what kind of primer should I use?
I'm partial to the 'red dot' primer. It seats well in the casing and
misfires are rare. :-D
Linn
>
> Michael LMAO
> do not archive
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa
> Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:46 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant
>
> Holy cow! Will this rant ever end?
>
> Kevin
> 40494
> tail/empennage
>
> do not archive
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Survey of the day: windshield visors |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
I forgot to even make an analysis at Oshkosh.
What are folks doing for windshield visors?
a) nothing?
b) Rosen?
c) other aircraft visor?
d) used visors from a 81 Chevy Chevette?
TDT
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Atrocious - Long Rant |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
This should go over well.....
Maybe some do not posses the needed mechanical skills to properly build an aircraft,
or to rephrase need to develop the skills before applying them to building
an airplane.
If you need to call a plumber to fix a leaky faucet, you may want to reconsider
building an airplane. "Pride" and "Workmanship" go hand in hand. It's OK to make
mistakes...it's not OK to not fix them.
Practice on your trim package not your aircraft and don't accept anything less
than your own high standard of WORKMANSHIP!!! Printed Standards are usually a
minimum acceptable practice. It's OK to exceed them.
Don't tell me there is no pride...this post has been dripping with it as well as
some puffy dented ego's. Don't flame someone who truly gives a rats A** about
you getting hurt or hurting someone else whether directly or indirectly by
higher rates or loss of priviledges.
Rick S.
40185
do not archive
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys <dmasys@cox.net>
---- Tim Dawson-Townsend <Tdawson@avidyne.com> wrote:
>
> Choices for test pilot:
> 1) me, 260 hour pilot, instrument rating. Only real experience in C-172 and
Warrior. Ten hours transition training in RV-10.
> 2) one of a few professional test pilots I know. Hours in the thousands. Types
in the dozens. Conceptually, zero hours in the RV-10.
For an RV, this is a pretty easy decision, which is to say it is a well proven
design and a very honest airplane. Even the bugbear of the short-wing RV's, which
is the stall-spin out of an uncoordinated slow flight condition, is less
of a risk in a -10. An acquaintence who works for Boeing as a test pilot and
does experimental first flights as a side business says the RV's are so predictable
they are almost like 'conformal testing to a type certificate'. (Of course,
he doesn't even agree to do such flights until he has done his own mechanical
inspection and believes it is a safe configuration.)
Having thrashed through this on the first flight of my -7A, I'd say that with reasonable
piloting experience and a good plan (plan the flight; fly the plan)
a first flight in your new RV is a great experience, not to be missed. If your
airplane has passed all of its tech inspections and doesn't have any of the
high risk anomalies (like fuel system modifications) then the biggest stress is
likely to be all those friends and family members who show up for the first
flight. The scariest part of my first flight was that I had a very accomplished
formation pilot flying chase in his RV and I got spooked just seeing another
airplane so close to mine during the laps around the airport that we did.
-Dan Masys
40448 cabin cover
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Atrocious - Long Rant - Trying to end it |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Sorry Tim, I need to step in as one of the people who took it off the
deep end.
I brought Jessie's name out into the open along with John Nys and
others and I have absolutely no regret about it and it is not something
you should feel bad about. Jessie and others know exactly what they are
doing and I also was very clear I think Jessie's intent is more the
education of the people he is in Ecuador to help. The financial side of
it is a bonus to further help them and I can respect that. I also feel
he should not register the aircraft in the US as he is not building it
in the US.
But anyway I agree with pretty much everything else. I am not trying
to be negative or bash guys out there but rather raise awareness of some
of the things going on. I feel conversations like this help to pressure
some of the guys that may be on the fence about building for profit to
think twice about it.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:15 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I feel a bit bad because I launched the original thread, and it's kind
of gone off the deep end a bit. I'd like to quickly clarify.
First, I just read the post from Linn Walters this a.m. and he said it
very well. I can tell he gets the point 100%.
The initial post was referring to awful quality, but mainly directed
towards those who build the plane for someone else, not for themselves.
I guarantee that even the pridefull builder who diligently worked to
make his plane beautiful, will recognize some flaws in their plane.
It's hard to get things perfect....did anyone notice the difference
between my passenger door rear seam and Debbie's in Deems's photos?
Some of that stuff is hard to perfect. So sure, you build yourself a
-10 and people are going to notice it at OSH...the good and the bad.
Don't feel like you have to be perfect. I know mine didn't hold a
candle to Debbie's, but I'm still very happy with how it turned out.
As for the list readers, if you're reading this list, then you're
probably not at all one of the people who would skimp on the effort to
do it right in the first place. You're here trying to learn from posts,
possibly as a lurker, and even that is admirable that you care that much
to filter out the daily junk
for the weekly gem. The concern was more for those who were
both violating the 51% rule, and building to low standards, which as
most would agree would not be a good thing for anyone. I didn't care to
name names, as it wasn't necessary. I feel bad that Jesse's name was
ever involved. He does good work and has a great plane.
In his case my only hope is that the builders "assist" is truly that,
where the builder actually goes to Ecuador and actually does complete
the FAA's required checklist of items if he's to be named on the
repairman's cert. I don't know much about the operation, but my gut
feeling is that these first 2 planes that they've done have been more of
a "proof of concept" and training period....not that they're going
full-scale into it yet. Done correctly and legally, it could be a
respectable builders assist.
So don't feel attacked, even though some strong words get tossed around.
The builder who isn't rushing and sacrificing quality to make the "big
show" is doing just great. I know it was painful for people like Scott
Schmidt to go to OSH and see ANY RV-10's there, knowing his meticulous
kit was still waiting on the ground at home. Thankfully he has the
patience to do it right.
Jeff Morgan had a good post last night too. I think we should try to
get back on the positive for a while, so I'll follow up with another
post a bit later if I can squeeze in a little trip story. One thing
regarding the campfire discussions though, it should be known that the
issues that we saw with some of the planes actually run deeper than what
was discussed on-list.
I won't go into public, textual detail about the flaws, but please
understand that in at least a couple of situations, after talking with
the builder a bit, the items that were being overlooked in the interest
of flying to OSH were definite airworthiness mechanical issues....things
that should have been taken care of before a X/C flight. Ask
yourself....
if you had an engine problem, where you KNOW something is wrong, and you
KNOW you could ruin your engine....would you
fly it across the US? So try not to let yourself slide into
the situation where you're so opposed to negative conversation that you
would rather not see a discussion about such things.
One last note on negativity: What's the most negative thing you can
read in most magazines? How about "I learned about flying from that",
or "Never Again" articles...
Personally, these are the real gems that I read every month.
I've actually BEEN in the situations in IFR/Marginal VFR where the
thought has went through my head "You know, if I'm not careful, I could
end up as one of those stories, or worse, not be able to write one ever
again." The slap in the face negativity can have some good effects
sometimes.
That's really my intent if I ever speak that way.
Again, thanks for following the thread even when it goes haywire....the
people who care enough to be here and learn are not the ones being
targeted and probably have nothing to worry about. Keep up the diligent
work!
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
linn Walters wrote:
> Since I'm on a roll, lemme take a shot!!!
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Scott Schmidt" <sschmidt@ussynthetic.com>
Those last 100 hours have turned into another 1000 hours I think.
But it will be worth it. I've already put 2500 hours into this project
and I'm not going to skimp on the final 100 hours.
I wanted to make Oshkosh but due to late shipments of certain pieces of
avionics I wasn't able to get the wiring finished plus I had some fun
trips I wanted to make this spring and summer on my motorcycle.
I had a great time at Oshkosh this year and was one of my favorite
years. I was there from Sunday to Sunday and this was the first time I
had been there the first three days of the show. The past 11 years I
have arrived on Wednesday night and I really noticed a big difference in
the crowds. The hangers were packed early in the week and pretty open
on Friday and Saturday. I had always though that Thursday and Friday
would be the days with the most airplanes but Monday and Tuesday are
definitely the busiest days.
The great thing about Oshkosh is that by the time I leave on Sunday, the
next Oshkosh is less than a year away.
Scott Schmidt
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 8:04 PM
Congratulations Jesse. Scott Schmidt can tell you the work involved in
those last 100 hours. It will be a highlight of OSH '06 to see all of
your hard work in person.
John Cox
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
I read something the other day that hadn't really occurred to me before,
that being the use of a PC flight simulator as a "mission rehersal" for
your first flight. I'm pretty sure there's an RV-10 model out there for
"X Plane", and you can customize the panel to match yours. Load airport
data for your local field, and you can run through the first flight
"virtually" before you do the real thing.
I think I might try that . . .
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Masys
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 11:43 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys <dmasys@cox.net>
---- Tim Dawson-Townsend <Tdawson@avidyne.com> wrote:
>
> Choices for test pilot:
> 1) me, 260 hour pilot, instrument rating. Only real experience in
C-172 and Warrior. Ten hours transition training in RV-10.
> 2) one of a few professional test pilots I know. Hours in the
thousands. Types in the dozens. Conceptually, zero hours in the RV-10.
For an RV, this is a pretty easy decision, which is to say it is a well
proven design and a very honest airplane. Even the bugbear of the
short-wing RV's, which is the stall-spin out of an uncoordinated slow
flight condition, is less of a risk in a -10. An acquaintence who works
for Boeing as a test pilot and does experimental first flights as a side
business says the RV's are so predictable they are almost like
'conformal testing to a type certificate'. (Of course, he doesn't even
agree to do such flights until he has done his own mechanical inspection
and believes it is a safe configuration.)
Having thrashed through this on the first flight of my -7A, I'd say that
with reasonable piloting experience and a good plan (plan the flight;
fly the plan) a first flight in your new RV is a great experience, not
to be missed. If your airplane has passed all of its tech inspections
and doesn't have any of the high risk anomalies (like fuel system
modifications) then the biggest stress is likely to be all those friends
and family members who show up for the first flight. The scariest part
of my first flight was that I had a very accomplished formation pilot
flying chase in his RV and I got spooked just seeing another airplane so
close to mine during the laps around the airport that we did.
-Dan Masys
40448 cabin cover
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Crossbow / Pinpoint News |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Mike Smith" <msmith@xbow.com>
After my conversation with the pilot on Sunday, we were informed that
the unit had been powercycled during flight with the same behavior. It
was also our understanding that upon landing the baggage was removed and
the unit was powercycled a third time. Upon powercycling the third time
with the baggage area emptied the unit maintained the proper heading.
Magnetic field disturbances or large ferrous materials can lead to a
shift in heading or continuous heading errors if the disturbance is
severe enough. Earth's magnetic field is relatively weak, and a very
large disturbance (from a magnet for example) could easily skew the
magnetometer readings. In extreme cases this can also appear in roll
and pitch values as well. It is also important to note placing a magnet
near the NAV425 is not recommended and can result in severe damage to
the unit as we have noted in the user manual.
Crossbow has contacted the customer again to ensure that he is getting
the maximum performance out of his unit. We have a large number of
these upgraded units in the field and have not had any problems with the
upgrades that were made in the last three months. Crossbow will also
offer the customer the option of returning the unit to Crossbow for
examination at no charge if he so desires.
If any of our customers are having problems with the NAV425, please
contact us directly. We would be more than happy to help you
troubleshoot any problems that you may be having.
Sincerely,
Michael Smith
Application Engineer Inertial Systems
Crossbow Technology
Email: msmith@xbow.com
Phone: 408-965-3388
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 3:29 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I wondered why the crossbow would fail in a continuous rotational
manner, since it would seem that ferrous materials would cause
it to shift in heading, but not rotate....and this has been
seen before in improper installations. But because it did not
make sense to me, I inquired and passed on the thread. Here is the
response I got (see below). Unfortunately, one of the things
that would have been cool to see is an in-flight powercycle, but
that didn't happen. In my past failures of the Crossbow, a
powercycle brought it back to life.
<response>
----
Fellow pilot stated:
"When I departed OSH on runway 18, straight out departure, climb to
1300', the magnetic heading began a slow CCW turn and never stabilized.
It continued through 360 degrees of revolution continuously for the next
30-40 minutes, whereupon I decided to land north of Chicago, as most of
Illinois and Indiana were IFR."
IF the problem was a hard or soft iron field distortion, the heading
would show an offset NOT a continuous slow heading change. If you put a
magnet near a compass you will see an offset. The compass needle will
not start slowly rotating. If the magnet is very strong it will cause
the needle to "freeze" at a single heading, again no rotation. The
simple answer is that the 425 had some sort of magnetometer failure that
was undetected by the AHRS processor.
The pilot has since tried to duplicate the problem by repacking the
baggage compartment with the same items. No Joy. This test indicates
that the power cycle fixed the problem, not removing the baggage. The
425 in question had just been reinstalled after receiving the latest
upgrades at the factory. So much for having killed all the bugs.
While it is good practice to keep ferrous objects away from your compass
system, placing a ferris object near the 425 should never cause it to
report the heading is spinning. If X-bow has a reasonable explanation as
to the cause of the random heading generator, we would like to hear it.
If they don't have an explanation, then they better figure one out.
Kirk Hammersmith
----
Tim Olson
do not archive
Mike Smith wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Mike Smith" <msmith@xbow.com>
>
>
>
> Crossbow contacted the fellow flyer referred to in Tim Olson's email
> after the reported problem on the same night. After speaking with the
> pilot, we discovered that when the baggage compartment was emptied of
> luggage and tools, the NAV425 performed correctly. The fellow flyer
> also verified that the NAV425 is mounted close to the baggage
> compartment. The cause of the heading error in this case can be
> attributed to ferrous material in the baggage area located too close
the
> NAV425.
>
> As noted in our user manual, Crossbow recommends a 24 inch minimum
> distance between the NAV425 internal magnetometer and sources of
> changing magnetic fields. Changing magnetic fields can come from
moving
> ferrous metal parts, changing DC electric currents, and ferrous metal
> parts that have been moved, removed, or added to the aircraft since
the
> last magnetic alignment procedure. This general rule applies to all
> types of magnetic heading sensors and all of them will incorrectly
> indicate heading if an uncompensated magnetic disturbance is too close
> to the magnetometer.
>
> The 24 inch separation requirement is not unique to the NAV425 but
> applies to our remote magnetometer products as well. The NAV425 uses
a
> high quality internal magnetometer to meet the original low cost goals
> of the NAV425 program.
>
> Crossbow is committed to building and servicing the best AHRS products
> in General Aviation. The upgrade program is running and is fully
> covered by Crossbow's warranty. Crossbow has updated over 40 units and
> received positive feedback from its upgrade customers. Crossbow has
> been supplying inertial systems for the aviation community for over 10
> years. Our AHRS products are built and serviced in the U.S.A. at our
> FAA certified facility in San Jose, CA. We are 100% committed to our
> products and the satisfaction of our customers.
>
> If you are having any problem with any version of the NAV425, Crossbow
> wants to hear about it and have the opportunity to correct the problem
> to your satisfaction. Please contact our Customer Service department
at
> 408-965-3300 for assistance.
>
>
> Mike Smith
> Customer Service
> Crossbow Technology, Inc.
> Email: msmith@xbow.com
> Phone: 408-965-3388
>
> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 6:47 PM
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> OSH brought me a time to get more forward-looking news on the
> AHRS problems of late 2005 and 2006, and I thought I'd pass on
> a couple of quick things.
>
> First, today I got some very disappointing news from a fellow
> Chelton flyer. He left OSH and called me after his first leg.
> He's flying a Crossbow 425EX that had previously been sent in
> and "fixed" and returned to service. Previously I had heard that
> there were 3 issues with the 425EX AHRS, two of which would
> affect RV-10's and 1 of which would more affect composite planes.
> They thought they had found the fixes and fixed those two issues,
> but today's story indicates differently. The pilot reported
> that the compass heading (at the top of the screen) rotated slowly
> around 360 degrees every couple of minutes, even though the
> plane was in straight and level flight. In talking with people
> further, I learned that this is one of the known failure modes
> of the instrument that would probably be noticed within about
> a 45 minute leg. If that leg were continued for a longer
> time, it would get worse, and eventually lead to a forward
> rolling display, or possibly even flying backwards through the
> HITS boxes. So, obviously it's not completely "fixed" and
> owners are still encouraged not to fly IFR with the "fixed"
> units.
>
> News on the Pinpoint: My pinpoint testing has been going well.
> I thought I hadn't noticed any issues at all, but on the
> day I left for OSH I noticed a strange Airspeed readout
> while at a standstill. I brought this up and found out the
> good news that had already been caught, and taken care of for
> the production units (I'm flying an engineering unit right now
> as part of a test team) and that with the positive results of
> the testing that the production units are now starting to come
> out for distribution. I was going to jump on a production unit
> but have decided to get my unit replaced with a unit that
> not only has the production items in it, but some additional
> enhancements as well that will need to now undergo some
> additional testing. To date, in flight I have never noticed
> any issues with the pinpoint, so other than some testing
> when I get a new unit, I'm going to start flying in IMC as
> required from here on out. Once everyone's back from OSH,
> I should be receiving the new unit and I'll pass on info as
> to how it works. I've heard that the first lot of production
> units should help fill a lot of need by the flying and almost
> flying builders.
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Proseal being used |
Wayne,
Found another link for other 3M seam sealants.
http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/auto_marine_aero/automotive_afte
rmarket/node_GSWMS8NB1Nbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWT
JQPBBgl/theme_us_aad_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Edgerton
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 5:17 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Proseal being used
I see your point there, that would look pretty tacky. I was meaning to
put it on before the plane is painted. Actually in my case to have the
painter use it to seal around the windows or anywhere else that is
needed before he paints it.
Wayne Edgerton # 40336
do not archive
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Atrocious - Long Rant |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Synergy and Alexander's need a plug at this point. Everyone I speak
with say their quality came up, their build progress increased, their
confidence soared. They learned what to look for and how to evaluate
construction. Now what is negative about that. If you fear composites
consider Abaris. All of this makes for healthy and wise kit builders.
None of these build aircraft the train builders in valuable life
affirming skills.
I just wish my Build Assist Facility was up and running, cause being on
KUAO with VANS is no small marketing advantage.
John Cox - KUAO
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:40 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
This should go over well.....
Maybe some do not posses the needed mechanical skills to properly build
an aircraft, or to rephrase need to develop the skills before applying
them to building an airplane.
If you need to call a plumber to fix a leaky faucet, you may want to
reconsider building an airplane. "Pride" and "Workmanship" go hand in
hand. It's OK to make mistakes...it's not OK to not fix them.
Practice on your trim package not your aircraft and don't accept
anything less than your own high standard of WORKMANSHIP!!! Printed
Standards are usually a minimum acceptable practice. It's OK to exceed
them.
Don't tell me there is no pride...this post has been dripping with it as
well as some puffy dented ego's. Don't flame someone who truly gives a
rats A** about you getting hurt or hurting someone else whether directly
or indirectly by higher rates or loss of priviledges.
Rick S.
40185
do not archive
Message 29
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Rookie questions |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Message 30
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Proseal being used |
Wayne,
Maybe something like this flexable 3M seam sealant would work for you.
http://www.autotoolmart.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_prod.html?p_prodid=9470
&p_catid=118
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Edgerton
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 5:17 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Proseal being used
I see your point there, that would look pretty tacky. I was meaning to
put it on before the plane is painted. Actually in my case to have the
painter use it to seal around the windows or anywhere else that is
needed before he paints it.
Wayne Edgerton # 40336
do not archive
Message 31
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Your's and Ray's quality and patience will be justly rewarded. I just
personally miss the wonderful progress pictures on your website. Poor
Deem's is hunching over from the weight of the web on his shoulders and
everyone excited about those new OPtech panels he's received.
Now if TDT will just open up about the developments from Avidyne. His
partner told me he knows ALL.
John
Do not Archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:57 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Scott Schmidt"
<sschmidt@ussynthetic.com>
Those last 100 hours have turned into another 1000 hours I think.
But it will be worth it. I've already put 2500 hours into this project
and I'm not going to skimp on the final 100 hours.
I wanted to make Oshkosh but due to late shipments of certain pieces of
avionics I wasn't able to get the wiring finished plus I had some fun
trips I wanted to make this spring and summer on my motorcycle.
I had a great time at Oshkosh this year and was one of my favorite
years. I was there from Sunday to Sunday and this was the first time I
had been there the first three days of the show. The past 11 years I
have arrived on Wednesday night and I really noticed a big difference in
the crowds. The hangers were packed early in the week and pretty open
on Friday and Saturday. I had always though that Thursday and Friday
would be the days with the most airplanes but Monday and Tuesday are
definitely the busiest days.
The great thing about Oshkosh is that by the time I leave on Sunday, the
next Oshkosh is less than a year away.
Scott Schmidt
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
Message 32
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | A fantastic flight, and Week - Long, but positive |
So how about a positive story!
Last week at OSH turned out to be fantastic all the way around
except for some sticky heat. You know, Wisconsin gets warm
in the summer, but it's a wet heat. ;) We got dumped on by
rain a few times, but the tent never got wet inside.
I can't believe how many of the people I met who were on the
OSH / RV-10 builders list. It was incredible! One night I
popped up the page and talked with Andrea and we looked
down the list one by one and checked them off as best we
could. I really feel bad that I still can't put a face to
the name on some of you, but your names stick out in my
head pretty well. Over time, the more often we meet,
I'll hopefully get better. The list ended up being over 1/4 of
the RV-10 population, and except for 1, all planes listed as
coming did show...the one that didn't was a wisely made move
to not fly a plane to OSH that had an issue that needed to be
addressed. There were also a couple that weren't on the list.
Thanks to those who took the time to send the info ahead. I
proved the reliability of this list to Jeff who parked us, by
showing that we had a very close number of actuals to expecteds.
They thought there would be a lot more....and actually, so did
I. I guessed 20 would happen. Well, next year I bet there's
no way we'll have less than 25. Lots of completions are just
around the corner.
RV-10 HQ was a pretty good success this year, due to the
wonderous works of Bob Condrey with his early arrival and
internet access for OSH updates. Gary also helped me out
a ton personally by allowing me to offload some of my camping
gear onto his motorhome so we could travel a bit heavier.
Every night people showed up...not in droves, but with enough
supply to keep the conversation going. We had some of the
best sites available in scholler, and are currently
contemplating how to make it work better next year to get
even more spaces, and good ones at that. Me being close, I
may be the guy to fly over there and stake some out well ahead.
It depends on how organized we get about it, as sites run $18/day
from the day you stake them out....but if we can coordinate
who's showing up and leaving, it may be a great way to get
some shaded spots near the -10 gang.
My RV-10 flights to and from were fantastic! We had an
hour of time almost on the nuts to go from KLUM to KOSH,
with just a little extension to that time for flying the
RIPON-FISK-OSH approach. We had a couple of noodleheads
in front of us on some of the approaches, as usual, but
despite their attemps, we lived through it fine. ;) For
those flying to OSH, please, read the NOTAM in detail
and you'll have a great time. I gave a couple people rides
on Monday, but have quickly decided that OSH is just not
the best place for that. The worst of it was the heat
and taxi getting in and out, but the FISK approach can
get you tied up as well, and it makes the whole thing a
bit rushed. Next year I'll just park and enjoy it for
the whole week, but we did have fun. My favorite approach
is the 18R approach...you stay above 1500' until you cross
9/27 and then they call your "blue dot" to land. When I
had Bob C. and Ed H. out for a flight, I didn't think I'd
be able to drop fast enough to make my spot, but by using
a nearly full rudder forward slip, it unbelievable came
out awesome. On Wednesday, I zipped home to get the
kids and did a quick turn with only 1.5 hours at home and
made it back before the show. Shot up through a scattered
layer on the way home, and was VFR on top in beautiful skies.
Punched the TruTrak altitude hold at 8510' and it never
swayed beyond 8500 or 8520'. On the way back, the cumulus
had started to build, and at 9500' we occasionally had
to do slight deviations to avoid a 10K' climber. Got
to shoot down through another hole in a broken area
at about 45 miles outside of OSH, and the kids just
thought it was beautiful seeing the puffy white
clouds appear just outside their window, slowly making us
feel small as we descended.
Once we were back on field for the show, parked up on
the front flightline, the field was overcome by torrent of rain,
which led to one of the funnier moments of the week (see
attached photos).
We scrambled under the plane, getting dripped on by
blown raindrops dripping off the airframe. Vic and Carol
quickly put the top cover on, and climbed under their plane.
People climbed under Debbie's plane as well. As we laid
there getting wet, I yelled out "Hey, why didn't we just
get IN the plane!?!?". Sometimes it's the little stupid
things that people forget to do. ;)
At the end of the week, we got a perfectly smooth trip
home. Intrigued by all the "Hot Tunnel" talk during the
week, we took our shoes off and felt the firewall, tunnel,
and everything else both high and low. The tunnel does
get warm, but I can keep my foot on it all day. Also,
I have almost no warmth at the top of the tunnel, just
the bottom, and if you move 6" to the left or right
of the tunnel, it's not very warm at all. By the time
you get to the front seat area, it's cool. I think
the issue still deserves some diligent thinking, but
I can't see why after taking a few small steps, this
issue can't soon die. That should be encouraging.
One side note is that my exhaust was shorter than Jesse's
and Vic's. Vic has his extended. Jesse has a newer FWF
kit. So apparently things today should be better for you
new builders than for me. I'm going to check on getting
longer pipes, just because you may as well do the easy
and prudent things.
One of the best things for me this year was not having
to write huge checks at the show. I hope many of you
got to the point where you get to make your final
decisions, as it's a big relief. My big purchases
were the Precise Flight Demand conservers
http://www.preciseflight.com/viewpage.php?pID=25
for my Oxygen system. They supposedly save 3-5X the O2
over the oxysaver cannulas. The other big one was
to buy Golden Eagle Chart Case Express. I use FlightPrep
for flight planning, which is nice, and I have figured
out a way to get almost all the approach charts
updated and free monthly, but I still lacked all
the current sectionals, WAC's, and Low-Alt Enroute
charts on an updated basis. I also was missing not
having an in-flight moving map for my tablet PC.
So for $395 I bought Chart Case and it looks really
cool. I haven't used it in flight yet, but it does
include HITS, Terrain, and a few other neat things.
Not something I'd want to use for an EFIS, but for
tracking your progress on a chart it looks fairly
nice, and it keeps me from having to buy current charts
before a sudden trip. I figured worst case, I'd be
current for a year on charts, and after that I'd be
left with an out of date chart, but a nice in-flight
tracking tablet. Updates are about 1/2 the price
of the software, and stocking up on paper charts
would have cost me much more than the updates for
the tablet.
Oh, and a flying highlight... I've always felt a
little crazy about the trim speed thing on the -10
elevator. I've said it before, I think it needs
some speed reduction at high airspeeds for safety's
sake, but not at slow airspeeds...but qualified it
that NEED may be a bad word. It's something that
some people may think is needed and some not. So,
I gave Bob and Ed the opportunity to hold the trim
aft for a second while flying level. The funny
thing is, Ed immediately bought a trim speed reduction
system and Bob was planning to, after the demo.
So I now know I'm not nuts, but it's just one of
those things that's not quite bad enough to panic about
but that many builders may want to do in the interest
of safety. I love showing other builders some
of these things and letting them decide.
So, the company was great, the shows were good,
the Vendors walked away with a little bit more of my
cash, and I walked away with more people that I can
call friends after meeting people in person. And
everyone got to see more than double the number of
RV-10's as last year.
I just posted a pile of random photos, some were from
Bob during the show and some are from other people.
If you have more you want to add to it, just send them
on. I've downsized them to 800 wide so they won't
be too huge.
http://www.myrv10.com/miscphotos/index.html
Also attached, I have some shots of our drenching
rain....an actually fun experience that will last
with the kids for a lifetime. ;)
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Message 33
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today |
I have 1100 hours SEL private pilot with instrument rating. Most of my hours were
in Cessna & Piper Archer class aircraft. Occasionally rented and have high
performance and complex signoff.
I took 6 hours of transitional training in an RV-10 and it will eliminate the
biggest risk on my first flight -> ME. It was a big step from an Archer to the
RV-10, and I believe the training to be very valuable. I can focus on the aircraft
during the first flight and not attempt on-the-job training as well.
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB, Kit 40029
billderou@yahoo.com
do not archive
Russell Daves <dav1111@cox.net> wrote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Russell Daves"
I insured my RV-10 with AIG through NationAir, who has carried my insurance
on various airplanes for over 10 years. My insurance binder DID NOT require
any RV-10 transition training and I added my buddy as a named pilot for no
extra charge. I have in excess of 1400 hours (254 in an RV-6A), Instrument
Rating, High Performance, and Complex Aircraft signoffs. I also have NO
INSURANCE claims in my history.
My buddy is a CFI, aerobatics competitor flying a YAK, with 2400 plus hours.
I added Randy as a named insured to allow him to do some of the flyoff
hours. Randy is a school teacher and provided me an extra pair of hands
this summer while he was on break and not working a second job.
I insured N710RV for $200,000 hull value with $100.00 deductible and 1 Mil
liability. The premium is $3,710.00 per year.
If someone gets a quote from an agent who tells you all insurance companies
REQUIRE transition training in the RV-10, without regards to the insured's
prior experience, the agent isn't doing you a very good job in negotiating a
deal with the insurance company. An aviation insurance agent is your
negotiator with the insurance company. If he or she is doing you a good job
they will shop the coverage and negotiate you a better deal. The key is to
start working with a good agent at least two months before you want the
insurance coverage to allow them time to do their thing. It not a lot
different than buying a car, if you walk in say you want that car and you
want it today you WILL PAY a much higher price.
Russ Daves
N710RV - RV-10 Flying
N65RV - RV-6A Sold
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:48 PM
Choices for test pilot:
1) me, 260 hour pilot, instrument rating. Only real experience in C-172 and
Warrior. Ten hours transition training in RV-10.
2) one of a few professional test pilots I know. Hours in the thousands.
Types in the dozens. Conceptually, zero hours in the RV-10.
The irony is that option 1) would be covered by our insurance. Option 2)
would not be covered, unless I pay the test pilot to fly down to TX and then
pay for him to fly with Alex for 10 hours. That's probably $2000 and having
to fine someone who doesn't mind using one of their weekends to go to TX . .
.
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Mon 7/31/2006 9:32 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox"
There are a number of highly skilled For Hire Pilots who will make the
initial flight and help establish the OCF quack list. Operational Check
Flight. Make sure they know both your make of airframe and your
specific model. Test Pilots are a bold breed.
Fly within the FAA designated restricted OCF area until you know it is
working fine. You might lose power and have to land before you planned.
Get frequent EAA Tech Advisor inspections along the build process.
John $00.02
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:49 PM
Ask your insurance agent who is required crew for the 10? Unless you
like going bare I would ask the agent not the FAA.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 9:23 AM
today
James,
Nothing in the rule says it has to be the builder to fly off
the hours, To the contrary lot's of people hire a "test pilot" to fly
off several of the hours. Another misnomer is that only one person can
be in the aircraft during flyoff but it is actually "required crew".
Michael
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James K Hovis
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:23 AM
today
I have to ask a question about the "build to order" aircraft:
Who's flying off the 25 hrs? I think it boils down to who it is applying
for the initial airworthiness certificate, is it the "owner"-the guy who
ordered the "build to order" or is it the builder? As it is now, my
interpretation of the 51% rule leads me to believe the owner-builder has
to be the one who makes the original application for the airworthiness
cert and he/she should be the one who flies off the test period hours.
And the initial registration named owner should match to builder-owner
on the airworthiness cert. I think looking at these things would
probably identify those who are violating the 51% rule fairly quickly,
if a "complete" aircraft is sold before the test period is over raises a
real red flag to me. But, what's to limit some guy from building an
airplane, flying off the test period quickly, and then selling the
airplane? Does this "qualify" as a "build to order" shop? I think the
sale of complete RV-10's especially makes it rather lucrative to cheat
the system. Yes, I know I asked about value before, but my motive wasn't
for a quick sale, but to see if future market would support re-couping
my investment should I decide to build/buy something else a few years
down the road.
The Feds can pretty well see who it is that's "building to
order". As quoted somewhere in this thread someone was saying he could
turn around an airplane in three months. That's a major red flag the
Feds should be looking for. A raid on that person's operation may be in
order. I think turning over four or more kit airplanes a year would
definitely qualify a person as a "professional" aircraft builder
requiring full conformity to Part 23 and Part 21. Perhaps that's the
solution, only one or two airworthiness certs can be issued to any one
individual unless they hold or are also applying for a production cert
under Part 21 within a year.
As Tim points out, keeping a good builder's log and when
asked by your DAR is your BEST (and probably ONLY) proof that YOU did
the work to put your dream together. Those yayhoos paying some guy to
build their airplane and then telling the Feds they built them is only
hurting the rest of us who want to do it right. What I'm afraid of is
the typical knee-jerk reaction the Feds typically have and we'll end up
with a draconian rule that totally hurts the aviation
homebuilder/experimenter.
James K. Hovis
On 7/31/06, Wayne Edgerton wrote:
One way that the FAA might possible be able to curb the
"build to sell" crowd would be to put a time line on when a newly built
plane could be sold or owners changed. As an example lets say the plane
couldn't be sold to a new owner until 6 or 12 months after the hours are
flown off or until it has so many hours on it like 300 hours. Then allow
a waiver to this in the case of certain conditions such as death of the
builder or maybe hell freezing over, something along those lines.
Wayne Edgerton #40336
Engine work
do not archive
===================================
===================================
===================================
===================================
Message 34
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Survey of the day: windshield visors |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I wish...
Right now, I use my arm, while holding my hand on the center
post of the windshield. I talked to Mike Fiske at Rosen again
while at OSH and he told me once again that they have too
big of a contract right now with a couple of projects they're
doing so their engineering dept. just doesn't have time for our
-10 visors yet. So don't hold your breath on those for a while.
I dont' know about others, but I could sure use some and will
probably build my own soon if I can't get something in the
near future.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
>
> I forgot to even make an analysis at Oshkosh.
>
> What are folks doing for windshield visors?
> a) nothing?
> b) Rosen?
> c) other aircraft visor?
> d) used visors from a 81 Chevy Chevette?
>
> TDT
>
>
Message 35
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: insurance requirements |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys <dmasys@cox.net>
---- Russell Daves <dav1111@cox.net> wrote:
> I insured my RV-10 with AIG through NationAir, who has carried my insurance
> on various airplanes for over 10 years. My insurance binder DID NOT require
> any RV-10 transition training and I added my buddy as a named pilot for no
> extra charge. I have in excess of 1400 hours (254 in an RV-6A), Instrument
> Rating, High Performance, and Complex Aircraft signoffs. I also have NO
> INSURANCE claims in my history.
Just to keep it interesting, it happens that yesterday I contacted JT Helms at
NationAir about the need for transition training. My story is a lot like Russ':
1700 PIC, instrument current, high perf, complex endorsement, no claims,and
> 200 hrs in my 200hp/CS -7A, which is insured by NationAir. Here is JT's
reply from 7/31/06:
"I'm positive that they would require some time. I just checked with another agent
here that handles a lot of RVs and she and I were both thinking 5 hours max.
The company that has been a little more competitive, and which has a better
policy (Global's EAA Program) will almost surely ask for a checkout to include
5 hours.
AIG would also likely ask for 3 -5 hours. But, their policy for in flight RVs
is not nearly as good as Global's, especially during the fly off restrictions.
Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
John JT Helms
Branch Manager
NationAir Insurance Agencies, Inc. "
So maybe the playing field is changing, or maybe it just depends what day of the
week you ask.
-Dan Masys
40448
Message 36
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 40Hrs & Numbers |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
The same for me! I never was there as early before, and I truly
didn't believe the people who said the crowds are on Monday/Tuesday.
I thought FOR SURE the most planes would come at the end of the week
and especially Saturday. Turns out I was dead wrong. I know one
thing for sure, next year I'm coming on Saturday or Sunday before,
and saying at least until Friday/Saturday!
Tim
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Scott Schmidt wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Scott Schmidt" <sschmidt@ussynthetic.com>
>
> Those last 100 hours have turned into another 1000 hours I think.
> But it will be worth it. I've already put 2500 hours into this project
> and I'm not going to skimp on the final 100 hours.
> I wanted to make Oshkosh but due to late shipments of certain pieces of
> avionics I wasn't able to get the wiring finished plus I had some fun
> trips I wanted to make this spring and summer on my motorcycle.
>
> I had a great time at Oshkosh this year and was one of my favorite
> years. I was there from Sunday to Sunday and this was the first time I
> had been there the first three days of the show. The past 11 years I
> have arrived on Wednesday night and I really noticed a big difference in
> the crowds. The hangers were packed early in the week and pretty open
> on Friday and Saturday. I had always though that Thursday and Friday
> would be the days with the most airplanes but Monday and Tuesday are
> definitely the busiest days.
>
> The great thing about Oshkosh is that by the time I leave on Sunday, the
> next Oshkosh is less than a year away.
>
>
> Scott Schmidt
> sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 8:04 PM
>
> Congratulations Jesse. Scott Schmidt can tell you the work involved in
> those last 100 hours. It will be a highlight of OSH '06 to see all of
> your hard work in person.
>
> John Cox
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 37
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Survey of the day: windshield visors |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
I see Spruce has generic "homebuilt" Rosen visors for less than $200 . .
.
Of course if you want to "pimp your ride", Rosen now makes a line of
visors for custom tuned cars - your choice of colors and shapes . . . :
)
TDT
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:51 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I wish...
Right now, I use my arm, while holding my hand on the center
post of the windshield. I talked to Mike Fiske at Rosen again
while at OSH and he told me once again that they have too
big of a contract right now with a couple of projects they're
doing so their engineering dept. just doesn't have time for our
-10 visors yet. So don't hold your breath on those for a while.
I dont' know about others, but I could sure use some and will
probably build my own soon if I can't get something in the
near future.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"
<Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
>
> I forgot to even make an analysis at Oshkosh.
>
> What are folks doing for windshield visors?
> a) nothing?
> b) Rosen?
> c) other aircraft visor?
> d) used visors from a 81 Chevy Chevette?
>
> TDT
>
>
Message 38
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: insurance requirements |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
FWIW, when I bought my RV-4 last year and insured it with Global
(through Falcon/EAA), they only required 2 hours of dual. I expect they
would want more in the RV-10 because it doesn't have the track record of
the RV-4 and is worth a bunch more. However, it is not a taildragger
and is considerably easier to fly than the RV-4 (at least the one flight
I had in a -10 seemed to be a lot easier - much more stable and solid.
An RV-4 is a lot "twitchier").
Jack Phillips
#40610
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Masys
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:56 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys <dmasys@cox.net>
---- Russell Daves <dav1111@cox.net> wrote:
> I insured my RV-10 with AIG through NationAir, who has carried my
insurance
> on various airplanes for over 10 years. My insurance binder DID NOT
require
> any RV-10 transition training and I added my buddy as a named pilot
for no
> extra charge. I have in excess of 1400 hours (254 in an RV-6A),
Instrument
> Rating, High Performance, and Complex Aircraft signoffs. I also have
NO
> INSURANCE claims in my history.
Just to keep it interesting, it happens that yesterday I contacted JT
Helms at NationAir about the need for transition training. My story is
a lot like Russ': 1700 PIC, instrument current, high perf, complex
endorsement, no claims,and > 200 hrs in my 200hp/CS -7A, which is
insured by NationAir. Here is JT's reply from 7/31/06:
"I'm positive that they would require some time. I just checked with
another agent here that handles a lot of RVs and she and I were both
thinking 5 hours max. The company that has been a little more
competitive, and which has a better policy (Global's EAA Program) will
almost surely ask for a checkout to include 5 hours.
AIG would also likely ask for 3 -5 hours. But, their policy for in
flight RVs is not nearly as good as Global's, especially during the fly
off restrictions.
Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
John JT Helms
Branch Manager
NationAir Insurance Agencies, Inc. "
So maybe the playing field is changing, or maybe it just depends what
day of the week you ask.
-Dan Masys
40448
_________________________________________________
Message 39
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Lycoming Suffix Information |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Albert Gardner" <ibspud@adelphia.net>
I understand there is a FAA web page that identifies what all of the suffix
letters mean for their engines. I did some searching but can't find it, does
anyone have a link to it?
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
Message 40
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | A fantastic flight, and Week - Long, but positive |
Great write-up Tim. I was actually thinking about getting
better/earlier spots next year without someone like Bob having to come
in early. We can figure it out in 11 months but it's only 30 minutes
away for me and I can easily go down on the day Scholler opens and snag
spots. Maybe we can come up with some mini Paypal/reservation method so
none of us get shorted because we grabbed too many sites and then just
split it between the campers.
I mentioned earlier that John Forsling is going to redo my exhaust for
heat muffs and also add a turndown at the end of the pipe. I have
attached a picture of one of his exhausts with the turndown. I also
attached an exhaust modification that John Cox was talking about that
helps to smooth the airflow around the exhaust as it exits the cowl. I
told Forsling about it but I'm not sure if he got over to see it. Deems
or someone was going to send him the pictures though.
Lastly to the trim speed issue, I think I posted this before also but
these guys make an automatic trim speed adjustment that can be set to a
specific airspeed. I am also going to use their flap positioning system
with the automatic trim compensation.
http://www.aircraftextras.com/RelaySpeedCont1.htm
http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm
Michael
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 11:42 AM
So how about a positive story!
Last week at OSH turned out to be fantastic all the way around except
for some sticky heat. You know, Wisconsin gets warm in the summer, but
it's a wet heat. ;) We got dumped on by rain a few times, but the tent
never got wet inside.
I can't believe how many of the people I met who were on the OSH / RV-10
builders list. It was incredible! One night I popped up the page and
talked with Andrea and we looked down the list one by one and checked
them off as best we could. I really feel bad that I still can't put a
face to the name on some of you, but your names stick out in my head
pretty well. Over time, the more often we meet, I'll hopefully get
better. The list ended up being over 1/4 of the RV-10 population, and
except for 1, all planes listed as coming did show...the one that didn't
was a wisely made move to not fly a plane to OSH that had an issue that
needed to be addressed. There were also a couple that weren't on the
list.
Thanks to those who took the time to send the info ahead. I proved the
reliability of this list to Jeff who parked us, by showing that we had a
very close number of actuals to expecteds.
They thought there would be a lot more....and actually, so did I. I
guessed 20 would happen. Well, next year I bet there's no way we'll
have less than 25. Lots of completions are just around the corner.
RV-10 HQ was a pretty good success this year, due to the wonderous works
of Bob Condrey with his early arrival and internet access for OSH
updates. Gary also helped me out a ton personally by allowing me to
offload some of my camping gear onto his motorhome so we could travel a
bit heavier.
Every night people showed up...not in droves, but with enough supply to
keep the conversation going. We had some of the best sites available in
scholler, and are currently contemplating how to make it work better
next year to get even more spaces, and good ones at that. Me being
close, I may be the guy to fly over there and stake some out well ahead.
It depends on how organized we get about it, as sites run $18/day from
the day you stake them out....but if we can coordinate who's showing up
and leaving, it may be a great way to get some shaded spots near the -10
gang.
My RV-10 flights to and from were fantastic! We had an hour of time
almost on the nuts to go from KLUM to KOSH, with just a little extension
to that time for flying the RIPON-FISK-OSH approach. We had a couple of
noodleheads in front of us on some of the approaches, as usual, but
despite their attemps, we lived through it fine. ;) For those flying to
OSH, please, read the NOTAM in detail and you'll have a great time. I
gave a couple people rides on Monday, but have quickly decided that OSH
is just not the best place for that. The worst of it was the heat and
taxi getting in and out, but the FISK approach can get you tied up as
well, and it makes the whole thing a bit rushed. Next year I'll just
park and enjoy it for the whole week, but we did have fun. My favorite
approach is the 18R approach...you stay above 1500' until you cross
9/27 and then they call your "blue dot" to land. When I had Bob C. and
Ed H. out for a flight, I didn't think I'd be able to drop fast enough
to make my spot, but by using a nearly full rudder forward slip, it
unbelievable came
out awesome. On Wednesday, I zipped home to get the
kids and did a quick turn with only 1.5 hours at home and made it back
before the show. Shot up through a scattered layer on the way home, and
was VFR on top in beautiful skies.
Punched the TruTrak altitude hold at 8510' and it never swayed beyond
8500 or 8520'. On the way back, the cumulus had started to build, and
at 9500' we occasionally had to do slight deviations to avoid a 10K'
climber. Got to shoot down through another hole in a broken area at
about 45 miles outside of OSH, and the kids just thought it was
beautiful seeing the puffy white clouds appear just outside their
window, slowly making us feel small as we descended.
Once we were back on field for the show, parked up on the front
flightline, the field was overcome by torrent of rain, which led to one
of the funnier moments of the week (see attached photos).
We scrambled under the plane, getting dripped on by blown raindrops
dripping off the airframe. Vic and Carol quickly put the top cover on,
and climbed under their plane.
People climbed under Debbie's plane as well. As we laid there getting
wet, I yelled out "Hey, why didn't we just get IN the plane!?!?".
Sometimes it's the little stupid things that people forget to do. ;)
At the end of the week, we got a perfectly smooth trip home. Intrigued
by all the "Hot Tunnel" talk during the week, we took our shoes off and
felt the firewall, tunnel, and everything else both high and low. The
tunnel does get warm, but I can keep my foot on it all day. Also, I
have almost no warmth at the top of the tunnel, just the bottom, and if
you move 6" to the left or right of the tunnel, it's not very warm at
all. By the time you get to the front seat area, it's cool. I think
the issue still deserves some diligent thinking, but I can't see why
after taking a few small steps, this issue can't soon die. That should
be encouraging.
One side note is that my exhaust was shorter than Jesse's and Vic's.
Vic has his extended. Jesse has a newer FWF kit. So apparently things
today should be better for you new builders than for me. I'm going to
check on getting longer pipes, just because you may as well do the easy
and prudent things.
One of the best things for me this year was not having to write huge
checks at the show. I hope many of you got to the point where you get
to make your final decisions, as it's a big relief. My big purchases
were the Precise Flight Demand conservers
http://www.preciseflight.com/viewpage.php?pID=25
for my Oxygen system. They supposedly save 3-5X the O2 over the
oxysaver cannulas. The other big one was to buy Golden Eagle Chart Case
Express. I use FlightPrep for flight planning, which is nice, and I
have figured out a way to get almost all the approach charts updated and
free monthly, but I still lacked all the current sectionals, WAC's, and
Low-Alt Enroute charts on an updated basis. I also was missing not
having an in-flight moving map for my tablet PC.
So for $395 I bought Chart Case and it looks really cool. I haven't
used it in flight yet, but it does include HITS, Terrain, and a few
other neat things.
Not something I'd want to use for an EFIS, but for tracking your
progress on a chart it looks fairly nice, and it keeps me from having to
buy current charts before a sudden trip. I figured worst case, I'd be
current for a year on charts, and after that I'd be left with an out of
date chart, but a nice in-flight tracking tablet. Updates are about 1/2
the price of the software, and stocking up on paper charts would have
cost me much more than the updates for the tablet.
Oh, and a flying highlight... I've always felt a little crazy about the
trim speed thing on the -10 elevator. I've said it before, I think it
needs some speed reduction at high airspeeds for safety's sake, but not
at slow airspeeds...but qualified it that NEED may be a bad word. It's
something that some people may think is needed and some not. So, I gave
Bob and Ed the opportunity to hold the trim aft for a second while
flying level. The funny thing is, Ed immediately bought a trim speed
reduction system and Bob was planning to, after the demo.
So I now know I'm not nuts, but it's just one of those things that's not
quite bad enough to panic about but that many builders may want to do in
the interest of safety. I love showing other builders some of these
things and letting them decide.
So, the company was great, the shows were good, the Vendors walked away
with a little bit more of my cash, and I walked away with more people
that I can call friends after meeting people in person. And everyone
got to see more than double the number of RV-10's as last year.
I just posted a pile of random photos, some were from Bob during the
show and some are from other people.
If you have more you want to add to it, just send them on. I've
downsized them to 800 wide so they won't be too huge.
http://www.myrv10.com/miscphotos/index.html
Also attached, I have some shots of our drenching rain....an actually
fun experience that will last with the kids for a lifetime. ;)
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Message 41
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Lycoming Suffix Information |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Here are two sources for the info. The Lycoming document is actually
easier to sort through since it's more concise.
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/productSales/engineSpecifications/SSP204
.pdf
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.ns
f
Bob #40105
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert
Gardner
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:17 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Albert Gardner" <ibspud@adelphia.net>
I understand there is a FAA web page that identifies what all of the
suffix
letters mean for their engines. I did some searching but can't find it,
does
anyone have a link to it?
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
Message 42
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Lycoming Suffix Information |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
Try this:
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:I9NCUkeXRGcJ:rvimg.com/tcds/lycoming
-io-540.pdf+lycoming+io-540&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3
Jack Phillips
#40610
Tail
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert
Gardner
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 2:17 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Albert Gardner" <ibspud@adelphia.net>
I understand there is a FAA web page that identifies what all of the
suffix
letters mean for their engines. I did some searching but can't find it,
does
anyone have a link to it?
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
_________________________________________________
Message 43
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Lycoming Suffix Information |
--> RV10-List message posted by: <jim@combsfive.com>
Tim also has a PDF on his web site for Lycoming engine variants.
Jim Combs
Do Not Archive
===========================================================
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Here are two sources for the info. The Lycoming document is actually
easier to sort through since it's more concise.
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/productSales/engineSpecifications/SSP204
.pdf
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.ns
f
Bob #40105
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert
Gardner
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:17 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Albert Gardner" <ibspud@adelphia.net>
I understand there is a FAA web page that identifies what all of the
suffix
letters mean for their engines. I did some searching but can't find it,
does
anyone have a link to it?
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
===========================================================
Message 44
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | RE: Altering the Exhaust? |
As I read some of these post on the exhaust and how builders are going t
o ALTER the pipes, bend them, cut them, etc. You may want to give Larry
Vetterman a call before you do that and insure you are NOT changing the
performance/porting when you make those changes. With a tuned exhaust
system you may be creating additional problems trying to correct one. I
am NOT saying your changes WILL effect the engine performance, but I wo
uld talk to the exhaust PRO before I modified his proven system.
FWIW,
Dean
40449
________________________________________________________________________
Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
<html><P>As I read some of these post on the exhaust and how builders ar
e going to ALTER the pipes, bend them, cut them, etc. You may want
to give Larry Vetterman a call before you do that and insure you a
re NOT changing the performance/porting when you make those changes.&nbs
p; With a tuned exhaust system you may be creating additional problems t
rying to correct one. I am NOT saying your changes WILL effect the
engine performance, but I would talk to the exhaust PRO before I modifi
ed his proven system.</P>
<P>FWIW,</P>
<P>Dean</P>
<P>40449</P></html>
<font face="Times-New-Roman" size="2"><br><br>______________________
__________________________________________________<br>
Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!<br>
Visit <a href="http://www.juno.com/value">http://www.juno.com/value</a
> to sign up today!<br></font>
Message 45
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Altering the Exhaust? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I had been told at OSH by people that it probably wouldn't make
a difference. But, your post got me motivated, so I talked
to the PRO himself just now on the phone. He says he doesn't
think it would make any difference and says it could probably
be lengthened or changed up to a foot with no performance
penalty. So, he's making me up a set of 6" extensions I can
try so I can see if it helps or changes anything at all. If
by some chance they change heat or noise significantly, I'll
probably see if I can buy a longer set of pipes. He did say
though that other than one builder, he hasn't had anyone
really complain that there's a heat problem.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
ddddsp1@juno.com wrote:
> As I read some of these post on the exhaust and how builders are going
> to ALTER the pipes, bend them, cut them, etc. You may want to give
> Larry Vetterman a call before you do that and insure you are NOT
> changing the performance/porting when you make those changes. With a
> tuned exhaust system you may be creating additional problems trying to
> correct one. I am NOT saying your changes WILL effect the engine
> performance, but I would talk to the exhaust PRO before I modified his
> proven system.
>
> FWIW,
>
> Dean
>
> 40449
>
Message 46
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | more on conditional inspections .... again |
--> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
John W. Cox wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>
>Linn, I respect your opinion
>
OK, you're on my good side!!! :-)
>and would just like to restate what should
>become more obvious to kit build owners. Each year and especially over
>the next ten, a significant percentage of A & P mechanics with IA
>designation are retiring. Many are dropping out due to unreasonably
>high insurance rates and increasing risk.
>
That's aparent. And there doesn't seem to be eager, younger, motivated
candidates to fill those shoes.
>The FAA held a seminar on Aging Certified Aircraft at OSH. These risks
>are increasing, the payment received is not.
>
Amen to that! I don't know how my two A&P/IAs can make a living. It
surely isn't from me since I do all my own work and they do the inspection.
> Homebuilts have a
>statistically much higher chance of accident and fatalities. When an
>owner/builder/repairman sells his prized asset it is seldom with the
>volumes of clear, concise instruction for the continued airworthiness of
>a certificated production aircraft or with a trained, informed Customer
>Service rep back at the factory (required by the FAA). They are all One
>of a Kind beauties in the eye of the seller. Their documentation is
>often a joke.
>
And I'm in that same boat. My documentation meets the requirements ....
more than that? Nah. I hate paperwork.
>I think it is wonderful that you have such a mechanic.
>
Me too. They are friends too!
> Are you aware if
>he/she might be operating without insurance. Many are. The statement
>an airplane is an airplane is unfortunately naively vague.
>
I disagree. The shape is different or the construction materials are
different ..... but all the systems are pretty much the same. I find
that construction issues are something the inspector can't change ......
but a second pair of trained eyes is important ..... it's why us
builders look at each others projects and flying machines with such a
critical eye. I think we're safer for that. My A&Ps love my Pitts, and
every time they get a chance to eyeball it, they point out stuff or ask
questions. We both gain from that ..... I get an educated viewpoint
from them, and they learn about rag and tube construction. And it's the
little things that count. I still have to really think hard about
routing and the twisting of safety wire ..... I'd rather just loop it
over the top of the bolt. But that's not proper (per them) so I spend a
fair amount of time pondering the 'proper' way. It's the little things.
And there's also the signature (if required) that can be withheld when
a homebuilder just plain refuses to do something correctly. I'm not
sure if I'm expressing myself very well here. But bottom line, if one
of my A&Ps makes a comment I have the opportunity to do the research,
learn from the comment, and either accept or refute it. I will have to
say that one of the A&Ps, although his repairs are technically correct
.... he's far from a craftsman. More like a neanderthal with a hatchet.
:-P
> Many
>homebuilders gain needed information on continued airworthiness by word
>of mouth not through factory guidance. The documentation is frequently
>woefully inadequate. I have many close friends who own warbirds and
>face such an extreme cost to maintain those great aged assets they look
>for Pen 'N Ink Annual Inspections.
>
The Feds send me airworthiness info if they know what I have .....
engines, vacuum pumps, bad hardware etc. ..... but you're right. The
only way most of us know about failure modes comes from a support group
of owners. The newbies ask the pro's (nicer than "older folks" :-) )
and the knowledge is passed on. There is that difference though,
between certificated and experimental documentation.
>Keep up your optimism
>
Sometimes it's tough!
> but my friends at work will enjoy reading about
>your respect for their professionalism. If the pay was commensurate,
>more might stay.
>
Oh yeah, I feel your pain. The A&P union seems to have fallen down on
the job .... and there's a lot of owners that I hear from complaining
about the annual from hell ....... yeah, I'm in that pile too .... I've
beat up on my friends every year trying to keep my flying expenses down.
My bad, I guess, but it's always been that way. I think that if more
owners assisted in their annuals (or conditional inspections) the not
too frequent airplane failur failure rate would go down. There is not
anything we can do about stupid pilot tricks though.
Linn
do not archive ......in case it isn't somewhere else in the email!!!
>
>John Cox
>
>-----Original Message-----
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
>Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:09 PM
>
>--> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters
><pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
>
>Sorry Kelly, but I respectfully disagree. If I was an A&P, I'd be
>rather put out with your characterization. An airplane is an airplane,
>and the training that an A&P has applies to systems and construction no
>matter if it's assembled by an amateur or an airplane company. I would
>expect that an A&P would apply the same basic inspection technique for a
>
>Piper 100 hr. or annual inspection to an experimental ...... which would
>
>check all the basic systems. It's what he's trained to do. It's what
>he's paid to do. There are a lot of experimentals at my airport that
>aren't owned by the builder, and the A&Ps that inspect my certificated
>aircraft, also inspect those experimentals. I don't think of them as
>ignorant, without a clue, or fools. I think of them as professionals
>that they are, and am open minded enouth to learn from them.
>Linn
>do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 47
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | RE: Altering the Exhaust? |
With my exhaust system I am not modifying anything. It is being built
by John Forsling who goes way back with Vetterman. John has done a lot
of work with exhaust systems over the years, including running different
exhaust styles on dynos, and is one of the experts. One of the things
that were discovered in dyno tests is that tuning doesn't make a
difference on most of these engines including ours which echo's what Tim
said.
Michael
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ddddsp1@juno.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 2:46 PM
As I read some of these post on the exhaust and how builders are going
to ALTER the pipes, bend them, cut them, etc. You may want to give
Larry Vetterman a call before you do that and insure you are NOT
changing the performance/porting when you make those changes. With a
tuned exhaust system you may be creating additional problems trying to
correct one. I am NOT saying your changes WILL effect the engine
performance, but I would talk to the exhaust PRO before I modified his
proven system.
FWIW,
Dean
40449
________________________________________________________________________
Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
Message 48
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Altering the Exhaust? |
Tim,
That will be a good test on your plane since you already have several ho
urs of data to compare it too. Did you ask Larry about putting any bend
s or curves in the pipe? Just adding length probably would not increase
exhaust back pressure much but I would think if people got carried away
with putting major bends in the pipes it would change the dynamics. HO
WEVER, as the builder we can do whatever we want.........build on.
Dean 40449
P.S. Engine inspector called today.......he was impressed how clean and
well preserved the O-540 was and said it should be ready to mount on the
plane by the 12th of Aug! I will sleep easier hearing that.
________________________________________________________________________
Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
<html><P>Tim,</P>
<P>That will be a good test on your plane since you already have several
hours of data to compare it too. Did you ask Larry about putting
any bends or curves in the pipe? Just adding length probably would
not increase exhaust back pressure much but I would think if peopl
e got carried away with putting major bends in the pipes it would change
the dynamics. HOWEVER, as the builder we can do whatever we
want.........build on. </P>
<P>Dean 40449</P>
<P>P.S. Engine inspector called today.......he was impressed how clean a
nd well preserved the O-540 was and said it should be ready to mount on
the plane by the 12th of Aug! I will sleep easier hearing that.</P
></html>
<font face="Times-New-Roman" size="2"><br><br>______________________
__________________________________________________<br>
Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!<br>
Visit <a href="http://www.juno.com/value">http://www.juno.com/value</a
> to sign up today!<br></font>
Message 49
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | conditional inspections |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
There is another!
I am not the originator of those quotes only another enjoyer.
JOhn G. 409
>From: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: conditional inspections
>Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 06:57:56 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
>
>--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
>
>John you crack me up with those Joda quotes :)
>
>Rick S.
>40185
>
>I love a good fight....from a distance. I like Mr. John Cox, a true
>gentlemen and quite dashing!!!
>
>
>do not archive
>
>
Message 50
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Survey of the day: windshield visors |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "KiloPapa" <kilopapa@antelecom.net>
Would any of the current Rosen visors be adaptable? We have a set of Rosens
in a C-182
but I am not that far along with the -10 to explore that idea.
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> I wish...
>
> Right now, I use my arm, while holding my hand on the center
> post of the windshield. I talked to Mike Fiske at Rosen again
> while at OSH and he told me once again that they have too
> big of a contract right now with a couple of projects they're
> doing so their engineering dept. just doesn't have time for our
> -10 visors yet. So don't hold your breath on those for a while.
> I dont' know about others, but I could sure use some and will
> probably build my own soon if I can't get something in the
> near future.
>
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"
>> <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
>>
>> I forgot to even make an analysis at Oshkosh. What are folks doing for
>> windshield visors?
>> a) nothing?
>> b) Rosen?
>> c) other aircraft visor?
>> d) used visors from a 81 Chevy Chevette?
>>
>> TDT
Message 51
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Aircraft Wiring for Smart People |
I just downloaded Greg's paper last night and have read only part of it. In
what I have read so far he has some good ideas, but I take strong exception
to some of his recommendations concerning shielding. Specifically his
statements about grounding shields on one end only! While there are cases
where grounding shields at both ends can cause problems with ground loops or
where the "ground" is at different voltages at each end, the general rule is
that at RF frequencies a shield is not a shield unless it is properly
terminated at both ends, and in most cases work better at all frequencies
when so terminated. The practice of terminating shields at one end only
originated many years ago with the telephone companies where the highest
frequencies encountered were in the audio range and where the connected
equipment was likely to be separated by significant distances.
I do agree with Greg's recommendation to use return leads rather than
depending on aircraft structure for the return. The concept of twisting
wires together is very good, although I believe that it should be done
primarily, if not only, with pairs (Supply voltage and return, signal and
return, etc.) because it helps to significantly reduce the vulnerability of
this wiring to noise interference and to the radiation of noise.
Jack Sargeant
1127 Patricia St.
Wichita, KS 67208-2642
316/683-5268
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:35 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People
HOW DARE YOU! Oh wait, I agree with you. I think Bob's book is worth
every dime for guys like me that are strictly laymen. I personally don't
see it as a bible like many others and I have criticized people over on that
list for putting him on a pedestal. His list has a lot of good discussions
as long as you can separate the wheat from the chaff but there is a whole
lot of cheerleading. It does seem to be going to his head a bit as his
discussions are turning more philosophical than actually useful. But I
digress. The Aeroelectric Connection is really just a collection of very
old and well proven design philosophies but nothing ground shattering.
As for Greg's book, I too attended his seminar at the 2005 Airventure
and read his whitepaper. Good stuff also. It's funny how a little feud
started between Greg and Bob a while back witch spawned Greg's paper. Is
either approach wrong, not really. They just represent different design
philosophies.
Michael
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Dawson-Townsend
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 4:16 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People
Not to be blasphemous, but has anyone else found "The AeroElectric
Connection" somewhat anti-climatic, compared to the way it is often talked
about as a document right up there with the Bible, the Constitution, and the
Declaration of Independence? It seems to have some areas in need of an
update, and a lot of focus on plastic airplanes. Certainly there's some
good information in there, but you'd think the thing could walk on water . .
.
TDT
40025
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Reining
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:04 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People
I attended a workshop given by Greg Richter of Blue Mountain Avionics on
Saturday at Oshkosh entitled "Aircraft Wiring for Smart People". It was
excellent. Each member of the audience was given a 39 page handout at the
start of the forum, which served as the basis for the lecture. While you
may not agree on all the recommendations it contains (such as using a 28V
system), it sure does provide good information for planning and implementing
your system. For those of you who missed this forum, here's the link to the
same handout, available as a PDF file on the Blue Mountain Avionics website.
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/aircraft_wiring_04december2004.pdf
By the way, be sure to also visit the AeroElectic website:
http://www.aeroelectric.com, and purchase their excellent book on the same
subject: "The AeroElectric Connection".
Bill Reining
RV-10 40514
Tail Cone
Message 52
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | -10's for sale in quantity, available today |
Re: RV10-List: -10's for sale in quantity, available todayCorrect! Unless,
or course, I can't read or understand the FARs.
Jack & Cecilia Sargeant
1127 Patricia St.
Wichita, KS 67208-2642
316/683-5268
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lockamy, Jack L
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:01 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: -10's for sale in quantity, available today
The "buyer" can still do any/all of the maintenance on the airplane. An
A&P is NOT required for maintenance on the aircraft, however the buyer could
elect to hire an A&P is he so desires or is not comfortable doing a
particular maintenance task. An A&P is only required to sign off the Annual
Condition Inspection as the "buyer" does not hold the Repairman Certificate
for that particular aircraft.
Jack
Message 53
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Atrocious - Long Rant |
My preference is CCI. Never had a misfire even with a soft hammer spring.
Jack & Cecilia Sargeant
1127 Patricia St.
Wichita, KS 67208-2642
316/683-5268
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:11 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
Sure, I can end it right now.
Hey guys, what kind of primer should I use?
I'm partial to the 'red dot' primer. It seats well in the casing and
misfires are rare. :-D
Linn
Michael LMAO
do not archive
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:46 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant
Holy cow! Will this rant ever end?
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
do not archive
Message 54
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | conditional inspections |
Regretful I am that Yoda quotes started I have.
TDT
archive do not
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tue 8/1/2006 7:15 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez"
<indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
There is another!
I am not the originator of those quotes only another enjoyer.
JOhn G. 409
>From: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: conditional inspections
>Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 06:57:56 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
>
>--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
>
>John you crack me up with those Joda quotes :)
>
>Rick S.
>40185
>
>I love a good fight....from a distance. I like Mr. John Cox, a true
>gentlemen and quite dashing!!!
>
>
>do not archive
>
>
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
Message 55
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Rob H., are you out there?
Wondering if there is a side view drawing of the 3500. Basically wondering
what the behind-the-panel footprint is so I can plan out that whole
sub-panel rib mod if necessary.
Rob Wright
#392
Wings
Message 56
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Altering the Exhaust? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Dean,
I didn't ask about any bends or curves, but the bends Michael was
talking about are barely bends at all, just a slight downturn
at the end. I really doubt that anyone would be able to get
too wild with the little ends of the exhaust in a way that would
cause big problems. My goal is to see if these extensions,
that should add about 3" of length, actually do anything. I'll
treat them as temporary. If they do anything amazing, I know I
can buy totally new, one piece tailpipes for $100 or less, so
that's what I'd ultimately do.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
ddddsp1@juno.com wrote:
> Tim,
>
> That will be a good test on your plane since you already have several
> hours of data to compare it too. Did you ask Larry about putting any
> bends or curves in the pipe? Just adding length probably would not
> increase exhaust back pressure much but I would think if people got
> carried away with putting major bends in the pipes it would change the
> dynamics. HOWEVER, as the builder we can do whatever we
> want.........build on.
>
> Dean 40449
Message 57
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Altering the Exhaust? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Mike and I talked to John Forsling specifically abaout this @ OSH, and
he said that the downturn and additional length adds NO back pressure
and creates NO adverse affects on engine performance. He did say that it
would significantly help to quite the noise level in the cockpit, and
keep the belly of the aircraft cleaner.
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/Finishing/Panel
http://deemsrv10.com/
Tim Olson wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> Dean,
>
> I didn't ask about any bends or curves, but the bends Michael was
> talking about are barely bends at all, just a slight downturn
> at the end. I really doubt that anyone would be able to get
> too wild with the little ends of the exhaust in a way that would
> cause big problems. My goal is to see if these extensions,
> that should add about 3" of length, actually do anything. I'll
> treat them as temporary. If they do anything amazing, I know I
> can buy totally new, one piece tailpipes for $100 or less, so
> that's what I'd ultimately do.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> ddddsp1@juno.com wrote:
>
>> Tim,
>>
>> That will be a good test on your plane since you already have several
>> hours of data to compare it too. Did you ask Larry about putting any
>> bends or curves in the pipe? Just adding length probably would not
>> increase exhaust back pressure much but I would think if people got
>> carried away with putting major bends in the pipes it would change
>> the dynamics. HOWEVER, as the builder we can do whatever we
>> want.........build on.
>> Dean 40449
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
Message 58
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
Message 59
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
One of the USA MT distributors tried to "lock out" other USA MT distributors
from manning the MT Propeller booth. I know this, because I had been
invited to work in the MT Propeller booth in a rotation program that MT Propeller
had just started.
This other USA MT distributor made it very difficult for the MT Propeller
owner, Gerd Muhlbauer, and the other MT Propeller employees. So much so, that
only MT Propeller employees are now allowed to work in the booth.
I felt that the time I spent working in the MT Propeller booth at the
airshow gave me a much better insight into the product, the company and the people.
I feel that the plan to rotate all of the USA distributors through the MT
Propeller booth was a very good idea.
Unfortunately, one egocentric USA distributor destroyed this for all of the
other USA MT distributors. And also for potential MT Propeller customers.
MT Propeller USA in DeLand, Florida, is owned by MT Propeller. The people
from MT Propeller USA will be manning the MT Propeller booth at Sun-N-Fun next
year.
I believe they are all native USA, or have been here to long to still be
considered German. :-)
Regards,
Jim Ayers
In a message dated 07/31/2006 8:15:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rvbuilder@sausen.net writes:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)"
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
One thing I would like to say about MT @ OSH, it would be nice if they
had US distributors man their booth. I went in there asking questions
and was basically given the model number and shoved out of the booth by
a little annoying German guy. If they didn't have a good history I
would have changed my mind on the spot. Something to take back to them
Jim.
Michael
Message 60
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Aircraft Wiring for Smart People |
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
Message 61
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
Message 62
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | conditional inspections |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick <ricksked@earthlink.net>
Splains that Tequila thing :) or was that someone else too??
Rick S.
40185
do not archive
Message 63
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | RE: X-plane model |
Here I found a file which appears to have an RV-10 model for X-Plane:
http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?autocom=dlmanager&do=viewfile&fid
=4965
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wed 8/2/2006 1:13 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Mike and I talked to John Forsling specifically abaout this @ OSH, and
he said that the downturn and additional length adds NO back pressure
and creates NO adverse affects on engine performance. He did say that it
would significantly help to quite the noise level in the cockpit, and
keep the belly of the aircraft cleaner.
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/Finishing/Panel
http://deemsrv10.com/
Tim Olson wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> Dean,
>
> I didn't ask about any bends or curves, but the bends Michael was
> talking about are barely bends at all, just a slight downturn
> at the end. I really doubt that anyone would be able to get
> too wild with the little ends of the exhaust in a way that would
> cause big problems. My goal is to see if these extensions,
> that should add about 3" of length, actually do anything. I'll
> treat them as temporary. If they do anything amazing, I know I
> can buy totally new, one piece tailpipes for $100 or less, so
> that's what I'd ultimately do.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> ddddsp1@juno.com wrote:
>
>> Tim,
>>
>> That will be a good test on your plane since you already have several
>> hours of data to compare it too. Did you ask Larry about putting any
>> bends or curves in the pipe? Just adding length probably would not
>> increase exhaust back pressure much but I would think if people got
>> carried away with putting major bends in the pipes it would change
>> the dynamics. HOWEVER, as the builder we can do whatever we
>> want.........build on.
>> Dean 40449
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
Message 64
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Official RV10-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV10-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete RV10-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV10-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains RV10-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the RV10-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the RV10-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
rv10-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "rv10-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the RV10-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the RV10-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/rv10-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all RV10-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the RV10-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* RV10-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the RV10-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* RV10-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* RV10-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* RV10-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the RV10-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* RV10-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the RV10-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the RV10-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?RV10
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV10-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV10-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV10-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV10-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV10-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
Message 65
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Official RV10-List Usage Guidelines |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV10-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
RV10-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV10-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV10-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV10-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV10-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV10-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV10-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|