---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/01/06: 65 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:12 AM - Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today (Russell Daves) 2. 04:06 AM - no subject (Rob Kermanj) 3. 05:16 AM - Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today (Wayne Edgerton) 4. 05:18 AM - Proseal being used (Wayne Edgerton) 5. 06:17 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant - Trying to end it (Tim Olson) 6. 06:34 AM - Insurance and what I had to do to get coverage. (Doerr, Ray R [NTK]) 7. 06:59 AM - Re: conditional inspections (Rick) 8. 07:14 AM - Re: BMA EFIS 1 For Sale ((-Phil-)) 9. 07:21 AM - Re: conditional inspections (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 10. 07:27 AM - Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today (GRANSCOTT@aol.com) 11. 07:36 AM - Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 12. 07:53 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 13. 07:55 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 14. 08:02 AM - Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today (Lockamy, Jack L) 15. 08:02 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant (Tim Dawson-Townsend) 16. 08:19 AM - Hartzell Propeller - Crate Size and Shipping Weight (Larry Rosen) 17. 08:19 AM - Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People (John Jessen) 18. 08:24 AM - Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today (John W. Cox) 19. 08:27 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant (linn Walters) 20. 08:33 AM - Survey of the day: windshield visors (Tim Dawson-Townsend) 21. 08:40 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant (Rick) 22. 08:43 AM - Re: test pilot (Dan Masys) 23. 08:44 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant - Trying to end it (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 24. 08:58 AM - Re: 40Hrs & Numbers (Scott Schmidt) 25. 09:03 AM - Re: Re: test pilot (Tim Dawson-Townsend) 26. 09:11 AM - Re: Crossbow / Pinpoint News (Mike Smith) 27. 09:13 AM - Re: Proseal being used (KiloPapa) 28. 09:15 AM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant (John W. Cox) 29. 09:24 AM - Re: Rookie questions (John W. Cox) 30. 09:27 AM - Re: Proseal being used (KiloPapa) 31. 09:29 AM - Re: 40Hrs & Numbers (John W. Cox) 32. 09:42 AM - A fantastic flight, and Week - Long, but positive (Tim Olson) 33. 09:42 AM - Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today (Bill DeRouchey) 34. 09:51 AM - Re: Survey of the day: windshield visors (Tim Olson) 35. 09:57 AM - Re: insurance requirements (Dan Masys) 36. 09:57 AM - Re: 40Hrs & Numbers (Tim Olson) 37. 10:02 AM - Re: Survey of the day: windshield visors (Tim Dawson-Townsend) 38. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: insurance requirements (Phillips, Jack) 39. 11:17 AM - Lycoming Suffix Information (Albert Gardner) 40. 11:24 AM - Re: A fantastic flight, and Week - Long, but positive (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 41. 11:57 AM - Re: Lycoming Suffix Information (Condrey, Bob (US SSA)) 42. 12:01 PM - Re: Lycoming Suffix Information (Phillips, Jack) 43. 12:33 PM - Re: Re: Lycoming Suffix Information () 44. 12:49 PM - Re: Altering the Exhaust? (ddddsp1@juno.com) 45. 01:37 PM - Re: Re: Altering the Exhaust? (Tim Olson) 46. 02:14 PM - more on conditional inspections .... again (linn Walters) 47. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: Altering the Exhaust? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 48. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: Altering the Exhaust? (ddddsp1@juno.com) 49. 04:18 PM - Re: conditional inspections (John Gonzalez) 50. 04:21 PM - Re: Survey of the day: windshield visors (KiloPapa) 51. 04:48 PM - Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People (Jack Sargeant) 52. 05:00 PM - Re: -10's for sale in quantity, available today (Jack Sargeant) 53. 05:04 PM - Re: Atrocious - Long Rant (Jack Sargeant) 54. 06:19 PM - Re: conditional inspections (Tim Dawson-Townsend) 55. 07:29 PM - AF3500 (Robert G. Wright) 56. 07:56 PM - Re: Re: Altering the Exhaust? (Tim Olson) 57. 10:19 PM - Re: Re: Altering the Exhaust? (Deems Davis) 58. 10:22 PM - Re: AF3500 (Rick) 59. 10:25 PM - Re: Re: MT at OSH (LessDragProd@AOL.COM) 60. 10:32 PM - Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People (Rick) 61. 10:38 PM - Re: Re: MT at OSH (Rick) 62. 10:40 PM - Re: conditional inspections (Rick) 63. 10:42 PM - Re: X-plane model (Tim Dawson-Townsend) 64. 11:35 PM - Official RV10-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 65. 11:48 PM - Official RV10-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:18 AM PST US From: "Russell Daves" Subject: Re: RV10-List: -10's for sale in quantity, available today --> RV10-List message posted by: "Russell Daves" I insured my RV-10 with AIG through NationAir, who has carried my insurance on various airplanes for over 10 years. My insurance binder DID NOT require any RV-10 transition training and I added my buddy as a named pilot for no extra charge. I have in excess of 1400 hours (254 in an RV-6A), Instrument Rating, High Performance, and Complex Aircraft signoffs. I also have NO INSURANCE claims in my history. My buddy is a CFI, aerobatics competitor flying a YAK, with 2400 plus hours. I added Randy as a named insured to allow him to do some of the flyoff hours. Randy is a school teacher and provided me an extra pair of hands this summer while he was on break and not working a second job. I insured N710RV for $200,000 hull value with $100.00 deductible and 1 Mil liability. The premium is $3,710.00 per year. If someone gets a quote from an agent who tells you all insurance companies REQUIRE transition training in the RV-10, without regards to the insured's prior experience, the agent isn't doing you a very good job in negotiating a deal with the insurance company. An aviation insurance agent is your negotiator with the insurance company. If he or she is doing you a good job they will shop the coverage and negotiate you a better deal. The key is to start working with a good agent at least two months before you want the insurance coverage to allow them time to do their thing. It not a lot different than buying a car, if you walk in say you want that car and you want it today you WILL PAY a much higher price. Russ Daves N710RV - RV-10 Flying N65RV - RV-6A Sold ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:48 PM Choices for test pilot: 1) me, 260 hour pilot, instrument rating. Only real experience in C-172 and Warrior. Ten hours transition training in RV-10. 2) one of a few professional test pilots I know. Hours in the thousands. Types in the dozens. Conceptually, zero hours in the RV-10. The irony is that option 1) would be covered by our insurance. Option 2) would not be covered, unless I pay the test pilot to fly down to TX and then pay for him to fly with Alex for 10 hours. That's probably $2000 and having to fine someone who doesn't mind using one of their weekends to go to TX . . .. TDT 40025 -----Original Message----- Sent: Mon 7/31/2006 9:32 PM --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" There are a number of highly skilled For Hire Pilots who will make the initial flight and help establish the OCF quack list. Operational Check Flight. Make sure they know both your make of airframe and your specific model. Test Pilots are a bold breed. Fly within the FAA designated restricted OCF area until you know it is working fine. You might lose power and have to land before you planned. Get frequent EAA Tech Advisor inspections along the build process. John $00.02 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:49 PM Ask your insurance agent who is required crew for the 10? Unless you like going bare I would ask the agent not the FAA. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 9:23 AM today James, Nothing in the rule says it has to be the builder to fly off the hours, To the contrary lot's of people hire a "test pilot" to fly off several of the hours. Another misnomer is that only one person can be in the aircraft during flyoff but it is actually "required crew". Michael ________________________________ [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James K Hovis Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:23 AM today I have to ask a question about the "build to order" aircraft: Who's flying off the 25 hrs? I think it boils down to who it is applying for the initial airworthiness certificate, is it the "owner"-the guy who ordered the "build to order" or is it the builder? As it is now, my interpretation of the 51% rule leads me to believe the owner-builder has to be the one who makes the original application for the airworthiness cert and he/she should be the one who flies off the test period hours. And the initial registration named owner should match to builder-owner on the airworthiness cert. I think looking at these things would probably identify those who are violating the 51% rule fairly quickly, if a "complete" aircraft is sold before the test period is over raises a real red flag to me. But, what's to limit some guy from building an airplane, flying off the test period quickly, and then selling the airplane? Does this "qualify" as a "build to order" shop? I think the sale of complete RV-10's especially makes it rather lucrative to cheat the system. Yes, I know I asked about value before, but my motive wasn't for a quick sale, but to see if future market would support re-couping my investment should I decide to build/buy something else a few years down the road. The Feds can pretty well see who it is that's "building to order". As quoted somewhere in this thread someone was saying he could turn around an airplane in three months. That's a major red flag the Feds should be looking for. A raid on that person's operation may be in order. I think turning over four or more kit airplanes a year would definitely qualify a person as a "professional" aircraft builder requiring full conformity to Part 23 and Part 21. Perhaps that's the solution, only one or two airworthiness certs can be issued to any one individual unless they hold or are also applying for a production cert under Part 21 within a year. As Tim points out, keeping a good builder's log and when asked by your DAR is your BEST (and probably ONLY) proof that YOU did the work to put your dream together. Those yayhoos paying some guy to build their airplane and then telling the Feds they built them is only hurting the rest of us who want to do it right. What I'm afraid of is the typical knee-jerk reaction the Feds typically have and we'll end up with a draconian rule that totally hurts the aviation homebuilder/experimenter. James K. Hovis On 7/31/06, Wayne Edgerton wrote: One way that the FAA might possible be able to curb the "build to sell" crowd would be to put a time line on when a newly built plane could be sold or owners changed. As an example lets say the plane couldn't be sold to a new owner until 6 or 12 months after the hours are flown off or until it has so many hours on it like 300 hours. Then allow a waiver to this in the case of certain conditions such as death of the builder or maybe hell freezing over, something along those lines. Wayne Edgerton #40336 Engine work do not archive =================================== =================================== =================================== =================================== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:06:46 AM PST US From: Rob Kermanj Subject: RV10-List: no subject Guys, lighten up! This is supposed to a forum for discussions and information, not personal arguments. do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:52 AM PST US From: "Wayne Edgerton" Subject: Re: RV10-List: -10's for sale in quantity, available today I think they are building them, registering it in their name, flying off the time and then selling it. And the argument could be made that he built it, registered it and then decided to sell it, which is completely legal but I think not the intent of the reg. Wayne Edgerton #40336 do nor archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:16 AM PST US From: "Wayne Edgerton" Subject: RV10-List: Proseal being used I see your point there, that would look pretty tacky. I was meaning to put it on before the plane is painted. Actually in my case to have the painter use it to seal around the windows or anywhere else that is needed before he paints it. Wayne Edgerton # 40336 do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:26 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant - Trying to end it --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I feel a bit bad because I launched the original thread, and it's kind of gone off the deep end a bit. I'd like to quickly clarify. First, I just read the post from Linn Walters this a.m. and he said it very well. I can tell he gets the point 100%. The initial post was referring to awful quality, but mainly directed towards those who build the plane for someone else, not for themselves. I guarantee that even the pridefull builder who diligently worked to make his plane beautiful, will recognize some flaws in their plane. It's hard to get things perfect....did anyone notice the difference between my passenger door rear seam and Debbie's in Deems's photos? Some of that stuff is hard to perfect. So sure, you build yourself a -10 and people are going to notice it at OSH...the good and the bad. Don't feel like you have to be perfect. I know mine didn't hold a candle to Debbie's, but I'm still very happy with how it turned out. As for the list readers, if you're reading this list, then you're probably not at all one of the people who would skimp on the effort to do it right in the first place. You're here trying to learn from posts, possibly as a lurker, and even that is admirable that you care that much to filter out the daily junk for the weekly gem. The concern was more for those who were both violating the 51% rule, and building to low standards, which as most would agree would not be a good thing for anyone. I didn't care to name names, as it wasn't necessary. I feel bad that Jesse's name was ever involved. He does good work and has a great plane. In his case my only hope is that the builders "assist" is truly that, where the builder actually goes to Ecuador and actually does complete the FAA's required checklist of items if he's to be named on the repairman's cert. I don't know much about the operation, but my gut feeling is that these first 2 planes that they've done have been more of a "proof of concept" and training period....not that they're going full-scale into it yet. Done correctly and legally, it could be a respectable builders assist. So don't feel attacked, even though some strong words get tossed around. The builder who isn't rushing and sacrificing quality to make the "big show" is doing just great. I know it was painful for people like Scott Schmidt to go to OSH and see ANY RV-10's there, knowing his meticulous kit was still waiting on the ground at home. Thankfully he has the patience to do it right. Jeff Morgan had a good post last night too. I think we should try to get back on the positive for a while, so I'll follow up with another post a bit later if I can squeeze in a little trip story. One thing regarding the campfire discussions though, it should be known that the issues that we saw with some of the planes actually run deeper than what was discussed on-list. I won't go into public, textual detail about the flaws, but please understand that in at least a couple of situations, after talking with the builder a bit, the items that were being overlooked in the interest of flying to OSH were definite airworthiness mechanical issues....things that should have been taken care of before a X/C flight. Ask yourself.... if you had an engine problem, where you KNOW something is wrong, and you KNOW you could ruin your engine....would you fly it across the US? So try not to let yourself slide into the situation where you're so opposed to negative conversation that you would rather not see a discussion about such things. One last note on negativity: What's the most negative thing you can read in most magazines? How about "I learned about flying from that", or "Never Again" articles... Personally, these are the real gems that I read every month. I've actually BEEN in the situations in IFR/Marginal VFR where the thought has went through my head "You know, if I'm not careful, I could end up as one of those stories, or worse, not be able to write one ever again." The slap in the face negativity can have some good effects sometimes. That's really my intent if I ever speak that way. Again, thanks for following the thread even when it goes haywire....the people who care enough to be here and learn are not the ones being targeted and probably have nothing to worry about. Keep up the diligent work! Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive linn Walters wrote: > Since I'm on a roll, lemme take a shot!!! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:20 AM PST US From: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" Subject: RV10-List: Insurance and what I had to do to get coverage. Once I had my RV-10 ready for first flight, I was only a 115 hour private pilot. I had 11 hours in my RV-9 (Constant speed) and 40 hour in a Cessna 175 with a 180 HP and constant speed prop and the rest in 150's and 172's. Also since my RV-9 had an off field landing because of Vapor Lock and flipped over, which totaled it, the insurance companies did not want to insure me. So what could I do? I had a couple of friends of mine fly off the 25 hrs. One way a 757 pilot and an examiner. The other was his son which flies A-10's in the Air Force. Between the two of them they tagged teamed the 25 hour fly off. The insurance company did not require them to have time in type since they have flown many RV's and aerobatic airplanes like a S2B Pitts. Once the 25 hrs were flown off, I started getting dual in my own RV-10 since from an insurance perspective, the test pilots were on the policy and are the Pilot in Command while I'm receiving dual. After 2 hours of dual with my examiner friend, he signed off my high performance. Now I was able to log PIC for each hour of dual I was receiving in my own plane. I logged 25 hrs this way, while the insurance company wanted my to have 200 - 250 total time and an Instrument Rating. At this point, I contacted a different broker to get quotes with my current 150 hours total time. He was able to get quotes from two companies, the quotes were high, but I was able to get them. And one was from the same company I was already with (AIG). So two different underwriters from AIG required different qualifications. So now I approached the underwriter at AIG explaining we were able to get quotes from two other companies along with one from Avemco. She finally came back the next day and said they would cover me as is and required me to have 15 hours of dual, which I now had 25+ and then had to have 10 hours solo before carrying passengers. I knocked those 10 hours of solo off Friday night and Saturday, then flew my whole family in it to Canada for a 2 week summer vacation, then to Oskosh 2006 for 3 days. So I guess what I'm saying is don't give up when it comes to insurance companies, possibly look at other brokers. Thank You Ray Doerr 40250 N519RV (Flying) -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 11:41 PM Tim, I think there is another option, slim though it may be at the moment. Get another RV-10 pilot who DOES have time in type to do some or all of the testing. Over time there will be more people with RV-10 time and the insurance companies will be happy with them. You can get them covered **probably** without anyincrease in policy as it appears your time would be the guiding factor on the rate. Of course there would need to be an undersanding between the two of you .. "Save **my* SKIN, then *your* TIN". I have two instances where I did this for friends and was FULLY covered by their policies (by name). In one case I was much younger and the other I had much more experience in type, so the rate did not increase. Don't know how close you are to finishing or how close you are to someone who could/would do it. Nor do I have any idea as to whether this is something you would consider. I just wanted to note it for the record. James On 7/31/06, Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote: Choices for test pilot: 1) me, 260 hour pilot, instrument rating. Only real experience in C-172 and Warrior. Ten hours transition training in RV-10. 2) one of a few professional test pilots I know. Hours in the thousands. Types in the dozens. Conceptually, zero hours in the RV-10. The irony is that option 1) would be covered by our insurance. Option 2) would not be covered, unless I pay the test pilot to fly down to TX and then pay for him to fly with Alex for 10 hours. That's probably $2000 and having to fine someone who doesn't mind using one of their weekends to go to TX . . . TDT 40025 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:33 AM PST US From: Rick Subject: RE: RV10-List: conditional inspections --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick John you crack me up with those Joda quotes :) Rick S. 40185 I love a good fight....from a distance. I like Mr. John Cox, a true gentlemen and quite dashing!!! do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:47 AM PST US From: "(-Phil-)" Subject: Re: RV10-List: BMA EFIS 1 For Sale -Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Large To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 9:31 PM Subject: RV10-List: BMA EFIS 1 For Sale It's likely that I'll be selling my BMA EFIS 1 after I look at the Garmin 900x if anyone is interested. I'm only going to Oshkosh on Saturday and should be back Sun night. It's a dual screen and includes the autopilot. Do Not Archive Eric Large catalyticeric@yahoo.com (616) 395 9374 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:58 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: conditional inspections --> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" My turn to chime in on this. :) Yes ideally the insurance would only kick in if the A&P made a mistake. Unfortunately we know that nowadays everyone gets sued because some idiot spills his coffee and rolls the plane into a death spiral while trying to clean it up. Michael Do not archive -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:32 PM --> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters --> Ah, now we get down to the reall nitty gritty. It boils down to liability insurance ...... which would only kick in if there was a mistake made, something important overlooked ...... the fear of making a mistake???? You made a PERSONAL decision not to use your training, and yet you bashed those that don't feel PERSONALLY as you do. That's a shame, in my book. But I do see your point. Lousy A&Ps are why I do all my own work ..... supervised by knowledgeable A&Ps of course when required ..... on my factory builts. I've been had by lousy A&P attention to detail, and had an off-field landing due to an incompetent A&P. There are good A&P/IAs ...... and bad ones, but that's no different than doctors, lawyers or car mechanics. The pain comes in finding out which ones are which. Linn do not archive. Kelly McMullen wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen > > Yup, I won't sign for an aircraft other than my own, because I refuse > to pay the $12,000 other IA's in the area are paying for liability > insurance. > KM > A&P/IA > > John W. Cox wrote: > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" >> --> >> >> I do play one in real life. And several friends who are current IAs >> are giving it up due to insurance (>$8,000 per year). At OSH, there >> was a great seminar on financial liabilities of A & Ps touching kit >> built aircraft. >> >> Don't bet on having one help in a pinch. Select one, cultivate a >> relationship. Share your knowledge. Help. Learn. Fly Safe. Fly into >> old age gracefully. That Repairman Certificate evaporates when you >> stop working on the exact aircraft it was issued on. It is non-transferable. >> An A & P is only good while you maintain education, proficiency and >> have the appropriate tools and manuals. >> >> Seek guidance on the construction and maintenance of a great POH and >> Conditional Maintenance Manual. It can save big bucks down the road. >> >> John Cox >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:31 AM PST US From: GRANSCOTT@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: -10's for sale in quantity, available today Russ, When talking to my Falcon agent they said the premium will be based on several items, pilot experience (recent), ratings, hull value, and seat on board. In the RV 10 there are 4 seats in an experimental, Van's have a pretty good safety record especially compared to a Cirrus but most other Van's have been VFR basic aircraft...most fatal accidents were due to pilot errors--like running out of gas etc. Now that the RV 10 is flying that will mean that the group will be IFR, flying an aircraft that is moving a lot faster than many other 4 seaters out there. Cirrus was pretty high on the learning curve with a high initial rash of fatal accidents by low time, inexperienced pilots many with freshly minted IFR ratings flying equipment they were barely familiar with. Let's hope that by being a "true" builder, many RV 10 pilots will be much more familiar with their aircraft and avionics that will be a 200 hour freshly IFR Cirrus pilot. But only time will tell the true safety record of building vs. buying. In the next 10 years there will be more Van's flying than Cirrus and probably a lot of other companies planes built in the past 20 years. Piper and Cessna are just barely building planes compared to historic numbers and Mooney, and the other boutique builders are building just enough planes to go from Chapter 11 to Chapter 11's. Between the RV 6,7,8,9, 10 and 12's there will be a huge fleet of Vans that insurance companies will be keenly interested in selling insurance. But if the current owners begin crunching the experimentals with fatal accidents then the pool will get muddied quickly and rates will be horrific. As the RV 10 group grows there is an opportunity for a group to form of RV 10 folks ala the MAPA group with transition training, and safety seminars that rotates about the US. One can work with the insurance providers and get the seminar certified as an insurance rate reducing venture. I'm sure while Van's wants to continue growing, they want the group to grow with them safely and that they have a group of individual builders and Van's probably does not want be a feed stock for a cottage industry skirting the 51% rule. It would not be in there best interest having the FAA in Oregon dictating policy how they operate plus they would have additional liability knowing that they are a subcontractor to an aviation production company. Currently, the 51% rule and liability are somewhat in the hands of the Van's builders. If one goes into a cottage industry, whether here or offshore, that will muddy the 51% rule even further. Getting a group of "buyer" fake 51% rule pilots stepping up from a C 172 with low time and new or no IFR rating will be a disaster for all Van's owners, IMHO. Patrick do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:20 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People HOW DARE YOU! Oh wait, I agree with you. I think Bob's book is worth every dime for guys like me that are strictly laymen. I personally don't see it as a bible like many others and I have criticized people over on that list for putting him on a pedestal. His list has a lot of good discussions as long as you can separate the wheat from the chaff but there is a whole lot of cheerleading. It does seem to be going to his head a bit as his discussions are turning more philosophical than actually useful. But I digress. The Aeroelectric Connection is really just a collection of very old and well proven design philosophies but nothing ground shattering. As for Greg's book, I too attended his seminar at the 2005 Airventure and read his whitepaper. Good stuff also. It's funny how a little feud started between Greg and Bob a while back witch spawned Greg's paper. Is either approach wrong, not really. They just represent different design philosophies. Michael ________________________________ [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 4:16 PM Not to be blasphemous, but has anyone else found "The AeroElectric Connection" somewhat anti-climatic, compared to the way it is often talked about as a document right up there with the Bible, the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence? It seems to have some areas in need of an update, and a lot of focus on plastic airplanes. Certainly there's some good information in there, but you'd think the thing could walk on water . . . TDT 40025 ________________________________ [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Reining Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:04 PM I attended a workshop given by Greg Richter of Blue Mountain Avionics on Saturday at Oshkosh entitled "Aircraft Wiring for Smart People". It was excellent. Each member of the audience was given a 39 page handout at the start of the forum, which served as the basis for the lecture. While you may not agree on all the recommendations it contains (such as using a 28V system), it sure does provide good information for planning and implementing your system. For those of you who missed this forum, here's the link to the same handout, available as a PDF file on the Blue Mountain Avionics website. http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/aircraft_wiring_04december2004.p df By the way, be sure to also visit the AeroElectic website: http://www.aeroelectric.com , and purchase their excellent book on the same subject: "The AeroElectric Connection". Bill Reining RV-10 40514 Tail Cone ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:20 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant --> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" What keeps getting missed here is what we are discussing is building an aircraft for resale. Not for learning and not for enjoyment. I don't think anyone has criticized, at least openly, the work of another builder who is doing it for the fun of it. Neither is anyone condemning seeking out professional help, John Cox was even clear his intention is to offer builders assistance. Seeing how the foil comment was aimed at me, I just want to point out I already said that it was temporary. However the reason I picked on this aircraft is because it went up for sale and it had MANY other lapses in quality. If these guys are going to build aircraft for resale, and possibly cause all of us to eventually loose this privilege, I feel they are open game. Not to mention if anyone is trolling this list for information on a specific plane for sale, I think they should know about the quality. I am certainly not building a perfect aircraft and doubt I will meet the standards set by the likes of Debbie or John Stewart. I don't think you made anyone mad with your email and I know I always welcome different POV's. Michael -----Original Message----- >From: "Jeffery J. Morgan" >To: >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant >Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 23:24:34 -0500 > >So, maybe just me and my cynical and critical eye reading all these >emails, but I find it ironically troubling (there are two words >together that you don't see too often), that so many builders would >take such a critical eye (heavy on the criticism) about the folks with >shoddy workmanship, yet the same group blasts the folks that seek out >the help of professionals. How can you have your cake and eat it too? > >Here is my take on this. I am a new builder and going to make new >builder mistakes. I am taking my time (way more than I would like at >times as I tend to be impatient), but it is for the good of the cause. >I want to build quality. However, that being said, there are many >tasks and skills that are new to me and lo and behold, I promise to the >world that I will have my blemishes as well! I might have more than a >couple too! > >I will work to make the primarily safe and secondarily cosmetically >acceptable so that I don't get beat up once I fly my baby to OSH.... I >hope that I would not want to fly it to OSH for fear of the critics >walking around judging what they feel is good versus okay. In my life >I have learned through many experiences that good looking doesn't >equate to good deal. I would way rather have the good deal, rather >than good looking. After all we are talking about safety, which is the >cornerstone of our insurance rates. I would rather see some cracked >paint on an airplane than a cracked skin! Who wouldn't? > >So back to my first paragraph, I am not trying to explain or defend >what has been posted. I think that we should all look to make things as >constructive as possible and look to share, which is what I like about >this group. I talked to the folks with the "shoddy looking foil" on >the plane. It was temporary so that they could fly to OSH. It was also >an experiment in learning to see what worked and what didn't. It isn't >right to try and judge that as a finish project, when we can all see >that the project never really ends as we update and change our minds. >Heck check out eBay and all kinds of avionics on there that were king >of the crop at one time. > >Everyone gets to decided what is good and what is not when they walk up. >All I would ask is that if you have a suggestion, you share it in a >direct and polite manner. Heck I would love to have someone tell me all >the mistakes not to make and how to hide the ones I do. I would guess >that the folks that showed up at OSH and didn't pass the campfire test >where the folks that aren't working to end the 51% rule. Why must we >publicly flog them? Here is a thought, make a suggestion how to make >sure that paint doesn't crack, or say what you felt wasn't adequate >with the design when you suggest it isn't okay. Also talk about your >time and results so that we can all learn. After all this whole plan >it to build a plane so that you learn....... > >I agree that some things need work, but at the same time, I have been >staring at things and just not been sure what to do. Here is how to >fix that so that we all benefit. The stuff I saw was little and most >of it didn't compromise safety. That is key, and at times, I think we >loose that. I don't want to too loose that, and want to bring in the >best of all worlds. The planes will only get better. I hate to think >that there would be a time that one person wouldn't feel comfortable to >bring up their mistakes and solicit suggestions without fear of being >bashed for not "doing it right". > >As we fight to protect the 51% rule, we must also be willing to let >folks make mistakes. Not allowing that is what leads to the outsourcing >and violations that we are seeking to stop! > >Sure I have made some mad. Hope I hear why I am not right, as I am >willing to have the discussion for the sake of learning!!! > >Thanks >Jeff > >________________________________ > >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox >Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:28 PM > > >Yes, I started this so let's bring it full circle with complete >disclosure. For many builders, Please except my apologies here. > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:31 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant Sure, I can end it right now. Hey guys, what kind of primer should I use? Michael LMAO do not archive ________________________________ [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:46 AM Holy cow! Will this rant ever end? Kevin 40494 tail/empennage do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:35 AM PST US From: "Lockamy, Jack L" Subject: Re: RV10-List: -10's for sale in quantity, available today The "buyer" can still do any/all of the maintenance on the airplane. An A&P is NOT required for maintenance on the aircraft, however the buyer could elect to hire an A&P is he so desires or is not comfortable doing a particular maintenance task. An A&P is only required to sign off the Annual Condition Inspection as the "buyer" does not hold the Repairman Certificate for that particular aircraft. Jack ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:53 AM PST US From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant How about them Red Sox? Go Big Papi! Maybe I will paint a big mural of David Ortiz on the side of our plane . . . TDT 40025 Do not archive ________________________________ [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:55 AM Sure, I can end it right now. Hey guys, what kind of primer should I use? Michael LMAO do not archive ________________________________ [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:46 AM Holy cow! Will this rant ever end? Kevin 40494 tail/empennage do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:33 AM PST US From: Larry Rosen Subject: RV10-List: Hartzell Propeller - Crate Size and Shipping Weight --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen Just picked up my Hartzell prop. For the archives the package is 88" x 10" x 16" and the shipping weight is 84 pounds. The freight charge for terminal pick up at Old Dominion's in Philadelphia was $112.45. I ordered the prop from Vans the end of May, it was scheduled for delivery on 8-1-06 which is exactly when it arrived. Larry Rosen #356 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:33 AM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People Go here (http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html) to see Nuckolls take on the issues. I'm not a promoter of either, nor am I able to tell "right" from "wrong." Just trying to determine which philosophy to favor more. I've taken Nuckolls seminar and almost walked out during the first day because it seemed more about Bob than about substance. But I also sat and had dinner with Bob and his wonderful wife, and talked to him in depth about a new curriculum and how to approach it. He was very well aware that the seminars needed to be updated. I do like his book and do like that his training efforts have made a difference in many respects for homebuilders. I learned from him and am still learning. I don't know anything about Richter, other than he was kind enough to discuss developmental issues with my son while Greg was in the throes of bringing out the BM in its early days. Not many would be open to discussion during development. Ask Rob. He and his crew have been overwhelmed with work. Hard to answer probing questions when you are in the development/test phase. So, because of that, I have respect for Richter. Different flavors. Smart, hard working people. Glad they're both around. John J Thinking about static air. _____ [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 7:35 AM HOW DARE YOU! Oh wait, I agree with you. I think Bob's book is worth every dime for guys like me that are strictly laymen. I personally don't see it as a bible like many others and I have criticized people over on that list for putting him on a pedestal. His list has a lot of good discussions as long as you can separate the wheat from the chaff but there is a whole lot of cheerleading. It does seem to be going to his head a bit as his discussions are turning more philosophical than actually useful. But I digress. The Aeroelectric Connection is really just a collection of very old and well proven design philosophies but nothing ground shattering. As for Greg's book, I too attended his seminar at the 2005 Airventure and read his whitepaper. Good stuff also. It's funny how a little feud started between Greg and Bob a while back witch spawned Greg's paper. Is either approach wrong, not really. They just represent different design philosophies. Michael _____ [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 4:16 PM Not to be blasphemous, but has anyone else found "The AeroElectric Connection" somewhat anti-climatic, compared to the way it is often talked about as a document right up there with the Bible, the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence? It seems to have some areas in need of an update, and a lot of focus on plastic airplanes. Certainly there's some good information in there, but you'd think the thing could walk on water . . .. TDT 40025 _____ [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Reining Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:04 PM I attended a workshop given by Greg Richter of Blue Mountain Avionics on Saturday at Oshkosh entitled "Aircraft Wiring for Smart People". It was excellent. Each member of the audience was given a 39 page handout at the start of the forum, which served as the basis for the lecture. While you may not agree on all the recommendations it contains (such as using a 28V system), it sure does provide good information for planning and implementing your system. For those of you who missed this forum, here's the link to the same handout, available as a PDF file on the Blue Mountain Avionics website. http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/aircraft_wiring_04december2004.pdf By the way, be sure to also visit the AeroElectic website: http://www.aeroelectric.com , and purchase their excellent book on the same subject: "The AeroElectric Connection". Bill Reining RV-10 40514 Tail Cone ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:01 AM PST US From: "John W. Cox" Subject: RE: RV10-List: -10's for sale in quantity, available today --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Linn, I respect your opinion and would just like to restate what should become more obvious to kit build owners. Each year and especially over the next ten, a significant percentage of A & P mechanics with IA designation are retiring. Many are dropping out due to unreasonably high insurance rates and increasing risk. The FAA held a seminar on Aging Certified Aircraft at OSH. These risks are increasing, the payment received is not. Homebuilts have a statistically much higher chance of accident and fatalities. When an owner/builder/repairman sells his prized asset it is seldom with the volumes of clear, concise instruction for the continued airworthiness of a certificated production aircraft or with a trained, informed Customer Service rep back at the factory (required by the FAA). They are all One of a Kind beauties in the eye of the seller. Their documentation is often a joke. I think it is wonderful that you have such a mechanic. Are you aware if he/she might be operating without insurance. Many are. The statement an airplane is an airplane is unfortunately naively vague. Many homebuilders gain needed information on continued airworthiness by word of mouth not through factory guidance. The documentation is frequently woefully inadequate. I have many close friends who own warbirds and face such an extreme cost to maintain those great aged assets they look for Pen 'N Ink Annual Inspections. Keep up your optimism but my friends at work will enjoy reading about your respect for their professionalism. If the pay was commensurate, more might stay. John Cox -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:09 PM --> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters Sorry Kelly, but I respectfully disagree. If I was an A&P, I'd be rather put out with your characterization. An airplane is an airplane, and the training that an A&P has applies to systems and construction no matter if it's assembled by an amateur or an airplane company. I would expect that an A&P would apply the same basic inspection technique for a Piper 100 hr. or annual inspection to an experimental ...... which would check all the basic systems. It's what he's trained to do. It's what he's paid to do. There are a lot of experimentals at my airport that aren't owned by the builder, and the A&Ps that inspect my certificated aircraft, also inspect those experimentals. I don't think of them as ignorant, without a clue, or fools. I think of them as professionals that they are, and am open minded enouth to learn from them. Linn do not archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:31 AM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: > Sure, I can end it right now. > > Hey guys, what kind of primer should I use? I'm partial to the 'red dot' primer. It seats well in the casing and misfires are rare. :-D Linn > > Michael LMAO > do not archive > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:46 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant > > Holy cow! Will this rant ever end? > > Kevin > 40494 > tail/empennage > > do not archive ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:11 AM PST US From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" Subject: RV10-List: Survey of the day: windshield visors --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" I forgot to even make an analysis at Oshkosh. What are folks doing for windshield visors? a) nothing? b) Rosen? c) other aircraft visor? d) used visors from a 81 Chevy Chevette? TDT ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:57 AM PST US From: Rick Subject: RE: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick This should go over well..... Maybe some do not posses the needed mechanical skills to properly build an aircraft, or to rephrase need to develop the skills before applying them to building an airplane. If you need to call a plumber to fix a leaky faucet, you may want to reconsider building an airplane. "Pride" and "Workmanship" go hand in hand. It's OK to make mistakes...it's not OK to not fix them. Practice on your trim package not your aircraft and don't accept anything less than your own high standard of WORKMANSHIP!!! Printed Standards are usually a minimum acceptable practice. It's OK to exceed them. Don't tell me there is no pride...this post has been dripping with it as well as some puffy dented ego's. Don't flame someone who truly gives a rats A** about you getting hurt or hurting someone else whether directly or indirectly by higher rates or loss of priviledges. Rick S. 40185 do not archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:30 AM PST US From: Dan Masys Subject: RV10-List: RE: test pilot --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys ---- Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote: > > Choices for test pilot: > 1) me, 260 hour pilot, instrument rating. Only real experience in C-172 and Warrior. Ten hours transition training in RV-10. > 2) one of a few professional test pilots I know. Hours in the thousands. Types in the dozens. Conceptually, zero hours in the RV-10. For an RV, this is a pretty easy decision, which is to say it is a well proven design and a very honest airplane. Even the bugbear of the short-wing RV's, which is the stall-spin out of an uncoordinated slow flight condition, is less of a risk in a -10. An acquaintence who works for Boeing as a test pilot and does experimental first flights as a side business says the RV's are so predictable they are almost like 'conformal testing to a type certificate'. (Of course, he doesn't even agree to do such flights until he has done his own mechanical inspection and believes it is a safe configuration.) Having thrashed through this on the first flight of my -7A, I'd say that with reasonable piloting experience and a good plan (plan the flight; fly the plan) a first flight in your new RV is a great experience, not to be missed. If your airplane has passed all of its tech inspections and doesn't have any of the high risk anomalies (like fuel system modifications) then the biggest stress is likely to be all those friends and family members who show up for the first flight. The scariest part of my first flight was that I had a very accomplished formation pilot flying chase in his RV and I got spooked just seeing another airplane so close to mine during the laps around the airport that we did. -Dan Masys 40448 cabin cover ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:27 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant - Trying to end it --> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Sorry Tim, I need to step in as one of the people who took it off the deep end. I brought Jessie's name out into the open along with John Nys and others and I have absolutely no regret about it and it is not something you should feel bad about. Jessie and others know exactly what they are doing and I also was very clear I think Jessie's intent is more the education of the people he is in Ecuador to help. The financial side of it is a bonus to further help them and I can respect that. I also feel he should not register the aircraft in the US as he is not building it in the US. But anyway I agree with pretty much everything else. I am not trying to be negative or bash guys out there but rather raise awareness of some of the things going on. I feel conversations like this help to pressure some of the guys that may be on the fence about building for profit to think twice about it. Michael -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:15 AM --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I feel a bit bad because I launched the original thread, and it's kind of gone off the deep end a bit. I'd like to quickly clarify. First, I just read the post from Linn Walters this a.m. and he said it very well. I can tell he gets the point 100%. The initial post was referring to awful quality, but mainly directed towards those who build the plane for someone else, not for themselves. I guarantee that even the pridefull builder who diligently worked to make his plane beautiful, will recognize some flaws in their plane. It's hard to get things perfect....did anyone notice the difference between my passenger door rear seam and Debbie's in Deems's photos? Some of that stuff is hard to perfect. So sure, you build yourself a -10 and people are going to notice it at OSH...the good and the bad. Don't feel like you have to be perfect. I know mine didn't hold a candle to Debbie's, but I'm still very happy with how it turned out. As for the list readers, if you're reading this list, then you're probably not at all one of the people who would skimp on the effort to do it right in the first place. You're here trying to learn from posts, possibly as a lurker, and even that is admirable that you care that much to filter out the daily junk for the weekly gem. The concern was more for those who were both violating the 51% rule, and building to low standards, which as most would agree would not be a good thing for anyone. I didn't care to name names, as it wasn't necessary. I feel bad that Jesse's name was ever involved. He does good work and has a great plane. In his case my only hope is that the builders "assist" is truly that, where the builder actually goes to Ecuador and actually does complete the FAA's required checklist of items if he's to be named on the repairman's cert. I don't know much about the operation, but my gut feeling is that these first 2 planes that they've done have been more of a "proof of concept" and training period....not that they're going full-scale into it yet. Done correctly and legally, it could be a respectable builders assist. So don't feel attacked, even though some strong words get tossed around. The builder who isn't rushing and sacrificing quality to make the "big show" is doing just great. I know it was painful for people like Scott Schmidt to go to OSH and see ANY RV-10's there, knowing his meticulous kit was still waiting on the ground at home. Thankfully he has the patience to do it right. Jeff Morgan had a good post last night too. I think we should try to get back on the positive for a while, so I'll follow up with another post a bit later if I can squeeze in a little trip story. One thing regarding the campfire discussions though, it should be known that the issues that we saw with some of the planes actually run deeper than what was discussed on-list. I won't go into public, textual detail about the flaws, but please understand that in at least a couple of situations, after talking with the builder a bit, the items that were being overlooked in the interest of flying to OSH were definite airworthiness mechanical issues....things that should have been taken care of before a X/C flight. Ask yourself.... if you had an engine problem, where you KNOW something is wrong, and you KNOW you could ruin your engine....would you fly it across the US? So try not to let yourself slide into the situation where you're so opposed to negative conversation that you would rather not see a discussion about such things. One last note on negativity: What's the most negative thing you can read in most magazines? How about "I learned about flying from that", or "Never Again" articles... Personally, these are the real gems that I read every month. I've actually BEEN in the situations in IFR/Marginal VFR where the thought has went through my head "You know, if I'm not careful, I could end up as one of those stories, or worse, not be able to write one ever again." The slap in the face negativity can have some good effects sometimes. That's really my intent if I ever speak that way. Again, thanks for following the thread even when it goes haywire....the people who care enough to be here and learn are not the ones being targeted and probably have nothing to worry about. Keep up the diligent work! Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive linn Walters wrote: > Since I'm on a roll, lemme take a shot!!! ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:19 AM PST US From: "Scott Schmidt" Subject: RE: RV10-List: 40Hrs & Numbers --> RV10-List message posted by: "Scott Schmidt" Those last 100 hours have turned into another 1000 hours I think. But it will be worth it. I've already put 2500 hours into this project and I'm not going to skimp on the final 100 hours. I wanted to make Oshkosh but due to late shipments of certain pieces of avionics I wasn't able to get the wiring finished plus I had some fun trips I wanted to make this spring and summer on my motorcycle. I had a great time at Oshkosh this year and was one of my favorite years. I was there from Sunday to Sunday and this was the first time I had been there the first three days of the show. The past 11 years I have arrived on Wednesday night and I really noticed a big difference in the crowds. The hangers were packed early in the week and pretty open on Friday and Saturday. I had always though that Thursday and Friday would be the days with the most airplanes but Monday and Tuesday are definitely the busiest days. The great thing about Oshkosh is that by the time I leave on Sunday, the next Oshkosh is less than a year away. Scott Schmidt sschmidt@ussynthetic.com -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 8:04 PM Congratulations Jesse. Scott Schmidt can tell you the work involved in those last 100 hours. It will be a highlight of OSH '06 to see all of your hard work in person. John Cox ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:32 AM PST US From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" Subject: RE: RV10-List: RE: test pilot --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" I read something the other day that hadn't really occurred to me before, that being the use of a PC flight simulator as a "mission rehersal" for your first flight. I'm pretty sure there's an RV-10 model out there for "X Plane", and you can customize the panel to match yours. Load airport data for your local field, and you can run through the first flight "virtually" before you do the real thing. I think I might try that . . . TDT 40025 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Masys Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 11:43 AM --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys ---- Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote: > > Choices for test pilot: > 1) me, 260 hour pilot, instrument rating. Only real experience in C-172 and Warrior. Ten hours transition training in RV-10. > 2) one of a few professional test pilots I know. Hours in the thousands. Types in the dozens. Conceptually, zero hours in the RV-10. For an RV, this is a pretty easy decision, which is to say it is a well proven design and a very honest airplane. Even the bugbear of the short-wing RV's, which is the stall-spin out of an uncoordinated slow flight condition, is less of a risk in a -10. An acquaintence who works for Boeing as a test pilot and does experimental first flights as a side business says the RV's are so predictable they are almost like 'conformal testing to a type certificate'. (Of course, he doesn't even agree to do such flights until he has done his own mechanical inspection and believes it is a safe configuration.) Having thrashed through this on the first flight of my -7A, I'd say that with reasonable piloting experience and a good plan (plan the flight; fly the plan) a first flight in your new RV is a great experience, not to be missed. If your airplane has passed all of its tech inspections and doesn't have any of the high risk anomalies (like fuel system modifications) then the biggest stress is likely to be all those friends and family members who show up for the first flight. The scariest part of my first flight was that I had a very accomplished formation pilot flying chase in his RV and I got spooked just seeing another airplane so close to mine during the laps around the airport that we did. -Dan Masys 40448 cabin cover ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:08 AM PST US From: "Mike Smith" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Crossbow / Pinpoint News --> RV10-List message posted by: "Mike Smith" After my conversation with the pilot on Sunday, we were informed that the unit had been powercycled during flight with the same behavior. It was also our understanding that upon landing the baggage was removed and the unit was powercycled a third time. Upon powercycling the third time with the baggage area emptied the unit maintained the proper heading. Magnetic field disturbances or large ferrous materials can lead to a shift in heading or continuous heading errors if the disturbance is severe enough. Earth's magnetic field is relatively weak, and a very large disturbance (from a magnet for example) could easily skew the magnetometer readings. In extreme cases this can also appear in roll and pitch values as well. It is also important to note placing a magnet near the NAV425 is not recommended and can result in severe damage to the unit as we have noted in the user manual. Crossbow has contacted the customer again to ensure that he is getting the maximum performance out of his unit. We have a large number of these upgraded units in the field and have not had any problems with the upgrades that were made in the last three months. Crossbow will also offer the customer the option of returning the unit to Crossbow for examination at no charge if he so desires. If any of our customers are having problems with the NAV425, please contact us directly. We would be more than happy to help you troubleshoot any problems that you may be having. Sincerely, Michael Smith Application Engineer Inertial Systems Crossbow Technology Email: msmith@xbow.com Phone: 408-965-3388 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 3:29 PM --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I wondered why the crossbow would fail in a continuous rotational manner, since it would seem that ferrous materials would cause it to shift in heading, but not rotate....and this has been seen before in improper installations. But because it did not make sense to me, I inquired and passed on the thread. Here is the response I got (see below). Unfortunately, one of the things that would have been cool to see is an in-flight powercycle, but that didn't happen. In my past failures of the Crossbow, a powercycle brought it back to life. ---- Fellow pilot stated: "When I departed OSH on runway 18, straight out departure, climb to 1300', the magnetic heading began a slow CCW turn and never stabilized. It continued through 360 degrees of revolution continuously for the next 30-40 minutes, whereupon I decided to land north of Chicago, as most of Illinois and Indiana were IFR." IF the problem was a hard or soft iron field distortion, the heading would show an offset NOT a continuous slow heading change. If you put a magnet near a compass you will see an offset. The compass needle will not start slowly rotating. If the magnet is very strong it will cause the needle to "freeze" at a single heading, again no rotation. The simple answer is that the 425 had some sort of magnetometer failure that was undetected by the AHRS processor. The pilot has since tried to duplicate the problem by repacking the baggage compartment with the same items. No Joy. This test indicates that the power cycle fixed the problem, not removing the baggage. The 425 in question had just been reinstalled after receiving the latest upgrades at the factory. So much for having killed all the bugs. While it is good practice to keep ferrous objects away from your compass system, placing a ferris object near the 425 should never cause it to report the heading is spinning. If X-bow has a reasonable explanation as to the cause of the random heading generator, we would like to hear it. If they don't have an explanation, then they better figure one out. Kirk Hammersmith ---- Tim Olson do not archive Mike Smith wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Mike Smith" > > > > Crossbow contacted the fellow flyer referred to in Tim Olson's email > after the reported problem on the same night. After speaking with the > pilot, we discovered that when the baggage compartment was emptied of > luggage and tools, the NAV425 performed correctly. The fellow flyer > also verified that the NAV425 is mounted close to the baggage > compartment. The cause of the heading error in this case can be > attributed to ferrous material in the baggage area located too close the > NAV425. > > As noted in our user manual, Crossbow recommends a 24 inch minimum > distance between the NAV425 internal magnetometer and sources of > changing magnetic fields. Changing magnetic fields can come from moving > ferrous metal parts, changing DC electric currents, and ferrous metal > parts that have been moved, removed, or added to the aircraft since the > last magnetic alignment procedure. This general rule applies to all > types of magnetic heading sensors and all of them will incorrectly > indicate heading if an uncompensated magnetic disturbance is too close > to the magnetometer. > > The 24 inch separation requirement is not unique to the NAV425 but > applies to our remote magnetometer products as well. The NAV425 uses a > high quality internal magnetometer to meet the original low cost goals > of the NAV425 program. > > Crossbow is committed to building and servicing the best AHRS products > in General Aviation. The upgrade program is running and is fully > covered by Crossbow's warranty. Crossbow has updated over 40 units and > received positive feedback from its upgrade customers. Crossbow has > been supplying inertial systems for the aviation community for over 10 > years. Our AHRS products are built and serviced in the U.S.A. at our > FAA certified facility in San Jose, CA. We are 100% committed to our > products and the satisfaction of our customers. > > If you are having any problem with any version of the NAV425, Crossbow > wants to hear about it and have the opportunity to correct the problem > to your satisfaction. Please contact our Customer Service department at > 408-965-3300 for assistance. > > > Mike Smith > Customer Service > Crossbow Technology, Inc. > Email: msmith@xbow.com > Phone: 408-965-3388 > > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 6:47 PM > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > OSH brought me a time to get more forward-looking news on the > AHRS problems of late 2005 and 2006, and I thought I'd pass on > a couple of quick things. > > First, today I got some very disappointing news from a fellow > Chelton flyer. He left OSH and called me after his first leg. > He's flying a Crossbow 425EX that had previously been sent in > and "fixed" and returned to service. Previously I had heard that > there were 3 issues with the 425EX AHRS, two of which would > affect RV-10's and 1 of which would more affect composite planes. > They thought they had found the fixes and fixed those two issues, > but today's story indicates differently. The pilot reported > that the compass heading (at the top of the screen) rotated slowly > around 360 degrees every couple of minutes, even though the > plane was in straight and level flight. In talking with people > further, I learned that this is one of the known failure modes > of the instrument that would probably be noticed within about > a 45 minute leg. If that leg were continued for a longer > time, it would get worse, and eventually lead to a forward > rolling display, or possibly even flying backwards through the > HITS boxes. So, obviously it's not completely "fixed" and > owners are still encouraged not to fly IFR with the "fixed" > units. > > News on the Pinpoint: My pinpoint testing has been going well. > I thought I hadn't noticed any issues at all, but on the > day I left for OSH I noticed a strange Airspeed readout > while at a standstill. I brought this up and found out the > good news that had already been caught, and taken care of for > the production units (I'm flying an engineering unit right now > as part of a test team) and that with the positive results of > the testing that the production units are now starting to come > out for distribution. I was going to jump on a production unit > but have decided to get my unit replaced with a unit that > not only has the production items in it, but some additional > enhancements as well that will need to now undergo some > additional testing. To date, in flight I have never noticed > any issues with the pinpoint, so other than some testing > when I get a new unit, I'm going to start flying in IMC as > required from here on out. Once everyone's back from OSH, > I should be receiving the new unit and I'll pass on info as > to how it works. I've heard that the first lot of production > units should help fill a lot of need by the flying and almost > flying builders. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:54 AM PST US From: "KiloPapa" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Proseal being used Wayne, Found another link for other 3M seam sealants. http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/auto_marine_aero/automotive_afte rmarket/node_GSWMS8NB1Nbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWT JQPBBgl/theme_us_aad_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html Kevin 40494 tail/empennage do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Edgerton To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 5:17 AM Subject: RV10-List: Proseal being used I see your point there, that would look pretty tacky. I was meaning to put it on before the plane is painted. Actually in my case to have the painter use it to seal around the windows or anywhere else that is needed before he paints it. Wayne Edgerton # 40336 do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:31 AM PST US From: "John W. Cox" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Synergy and Alexander's need a plug at this point. Everyone I speak with say their quality came up, their build progress increased, their confidence soared. They learned what to look for and how to evaluate construction. Now what is negative about that. If you fear composites consider Abaris. All of this makes for healthy and wise kit builders. None of these build aircraft the train builders in valuable life affirming skills. I just wish my Build Assist Facility was up and running, cause being on KUAO with VANS is no small marketing advantage. John Cox - KUAO -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:40 AM --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick This should go over well..... Maybe some do not posses the needed mechanical skills to properly build an aircraft, or to rephrase need to develop the skills before applying them to building an airplane. If you need to call a plumber to fix a leaky faucet, you may want to reconsider building an airplane. "Pride" and "Workmanship" go hand in hand. It's OK to make mistakes...it's not OK to not fix them. Practice on your trim package not your aircraft and don't accept anything less than your own high standard of WORKMANSHIP!!! Printed Standards are usually a minimum acceptable practice. It's OK to exceed them. Don't tell me there is no pride...this post has been dripping with it as well as some puffy dented ego's. Don't flame someone who truly gives a rats A** about you getting hurt or hurting someone else whether directly or indirectly by higher rates or loss of priviledges. Rick S. 40185 do not archive ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:52 AM PST US From: "John W. Cox" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Rookie questions U3VzaWUgYW5kIENocmlzLCBiYWNrIHRvIHlvdXIgdmFsdWVkIHBvc3QgYW5kIHBvc2l0aXZlIHF1 ZXN0aW9ucy4gIFdoZW4gY29uc2lkZXJpbmcgZG91YmxlcnMsIHNjaG9vbCB0YXVnaHQgdXMgdG8g YXNrLiAgIldoYXQgaXMgaGFyZGVyLCB1c2luZyBhIGRvdWJsZXIgZHVyaW5nIHRoZSBpbml0aWFs IGNvbnN0cnVjdGlvbiBvciByZXBsYWNpbmcgdGhlIHNraW4gd2hlbiBpdCBpcyBjcmFja2luZyAt IGFmdGVyIHRoZSBhbHVtaW51bSBzaG93cyBpdHMgbWVtb3J5Ij8gIFdoYXQgaXMgdGhlIGNvc3Qg ZGlmZmVyZW5jZT8gVGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9uIGFwcGxpZWQgdG8ga2l0YnVpbHRzIGNhdXNlIGl0IGlz IG5vdCBhbiBvcHRpb24gb24gdGhlIGNlcnRpZmllZCBzaWRlLg0KDQpJdCBpcyBhbiBpbnRlcmVz dGluZyB3YXkgdG8gbG9vayBhdCBidWlsZCBxdWVzdGlvbnMgd2hlbiBldmFsdWF0aW5nIGlkZWFz LCBtb2RzIG9yIHRoZSBvcmlnaW5hbCBzdGVwcy4NCg0KSm9obiBDb3gg4oCTIEtVQU8NCg0KLS0+ IFJWMTAtTGlzdCBtZXNzYWdlIHBvc3RlZCBieTogIkNocmlzICwgU3VzaWXCoCBEYXJjeSIgPFZI TVVNQGJpZ3BvbmQuY29tPg0KDQpJIHNlZSBhIGxvdCBvZiBidWlsZGVycyBhcmUgcHV0dGluZyBk b3VibGVycyBvbiBob3dldmVyIEkgZGlkbid0IG9uIG15IDYgYW5kDQpuZXZlciBoYWQgYSBwcm9i bGVtLiBNaWdodCBwdXQgb25lIG9uIHRoZSAxMCBub3Qgc3VyZSB5ZXQuDQoNCkNocmlzDQotLS0t LSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tDQpTZW50OiBTYXR1cmRheSwgSnVseSAyOSwgMjAwNiAx MTowOCBBTQ0KDQoNCg= ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:23 AM PST US From: "KiloPapa" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Proseal being used Wayne, Maybe something like this flexable 3M seam sealant would work for you. http://www.autotoolmart.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_prod.html?p_prodid=9470 &p_catid=118 Kevin 40494 tail/empennage do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Edgerton To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 5:17 AM Subject: RV10-List: Proseal being used I see your point there, that would look pretty tacky. I was meaning to put it on before the plane is painted. Actually in my case to have the painter use it to seal around the windows or anywhere else that is needed before he paints it. Wayne Edgerton # 40336 do not archive ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:46 AM PST US From: "John W. Cox" Subject: RE: RV10-List: 40Hrs & Numbers --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Your's and Ray's quality and patience will be justly rewarded. I just personally miss the wonderful progress pictures on your website. Poor Deem's is hunching over from the weight of the web on his shoulders and everyone excited about those new OPtech panels he's received. Now if TDT will just open up about the developments from Avidyne. His partner told me he knows ALL. John Do not Archive -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:57 AM --> RV10-List message posted by: "Scott Schmidt" Those last 100 hours have turned into another 1000 hours I think. But it will be worth it. I've already put 2500 hours into this project and I'm not going to skimp on the final 100 hours. I wanted to make Oshkosh but due to late shipments of certain pieces of avionics I wasn't able to get the wiring finished plus I had some fun trips I wanted to make this spring and summer on my motorcycle. I had a great time at Oshkosh this year and was one of my favorite years. I was there from Sunday to Sunday and this was the first time I had been there the first three days of the show. The past 11 years I have arrived on Wednesday night and I really noticed a big difference in the crowds. The hangers were packed early in the week and pretty open on Friday and Saturday. I had always though that Thursday and Friday would be the days with the most airplanes but Monday and Tuesday are definitely the busiest days. The great thing about Oshkosh is that by the time I leave on Sunday, the next Oshkosh is less than a year away. Scott Schmidt sschmidt@ussynthetic.com ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:13 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: A fantastic flight, and Week - Long, but positive So how about a positive story! Last week at OSH turned out to be fantastic all the way around except for some sticky heat. You know, Wisconsin gets warm in the summer, but it's a wet heat. ;) We got dumped on by rain a few times, but the tent never got wet inside. I can't believe how many of the people I met who were on the OSH / RV-10 builders list. It was incredible! One night I popped up the page and talked with Andrea and we looked down the list one by one and checked them off as best we could. I really feel bad that I still can't put a face to the name on some of you, but your names stick out in my head pretty well. Over time, the more often we meet, I'll hopefully get better. The list ended up being over 1/4 of the RV-10 population, and except for 1, all planes listed as coming did show...the one that didn't was a wisely made move to not fly a plane to OSH that had an issue that needed to be addressed. There were also a couple that weren't on the list. Thanks to those who took the time to send the info ahead. I proved the reliability of this list to Jeff who parked us, by showing that we had a very close number of actuals to expecteds. They thought there would be a lot more....and actually, so did I. I guessed 20 would happen. Well, next year I bet there's no way we'll have less than 25. Lots of completions are just around the corner. RV-10 HQ was a pretty good success this year, due to the wonderous works of Bob Condrey with his early arrival and internet access for OSH updates. Gary also helped me out a ton personally by allowing me to offload some of my camping gear onto his motorhome so we could travel a bit heavier. Every night people showed up...not in droves, but with enough supply to keep the conversation going. We had some of the best sites available in scholler, and are currently contemplating how to make it work better next year to get even more spaces, and good ones at that. Me being close, I may be the guy to fly over there and stake some out well ahead. It depends on how organized we get about it, as sites run $18/day from the day you stake them out....but if we can coordinate who's showing up and leaving, it may be a great way to get some shaded spots near the -10 gang. My RV-10 flights to and from were fantastic! We had an hour of time almost on the nuts to go from KLUM to KOSH, with just a little extension to that time for flying the RIPON-FISK-OSH approach. We had a couple of noodleheads in front of us on some of the approaches, as usual, but despite their attemps, we lived through it fine. ;) For those flying to OSH, please, read the NOTAM in detail and you'll have a great time. I gave a couple people rides on Monday, but have quickly decided that OSH is just not the best place for that. The worst of it was the heat and taxi getting in and out, but the FISK approach can get you tied up as well, and it makes the whole thing a bit rushed. Next year I'll just park and enjoy it for the whole week, but we did have fun. My favorite approach is the 18R approach...you stay above 1500' until you cross 9/27 and then they call your "blue dot" to land. When I had Bob C. and Ed H. out for a flight, I didn't think I'd be able to drop fast enough to make my spot, but by using a nearly full rudder forward slip, it unbelievable came out awesome. On Wednesday, I zipped home to get the kids and did a quick turn with only 1.5 hours at home and made it back before the show. Shot up through a scattered layer on the way home, and was VFR on top in beautiful skies. Punched the TruTrak altitude hold at 8510' and it never swayed beyond 8500 or 8520'. On the way back, the cumulus had started to build, and at 9500' we occasionally had to do slight deviations to avoid a 10K' climber. Got to shoot down through another hole in a broken area at about 45 miles outside of OSH, and the kids just thought it was beautiful seeing the puffy white clouds appear just outside their window, slowly making us feel small as we descended. Once we were back on field for the show, parked up on the front flightline, the field was overcome by torrent of rain, which led to one of the funnier moments of the week (see attached photos). We scrambled under the plane, getting dripped on by blown raindrops dripping off the airframe. Vic and Carol quickly put the top cover on, and climbed under their plane. People climbed under Debbie's plane as well. As we laid there getting wet, I yelled out "Hey, why didn't we just get IN the plane!?!?". Sometimes it's the little stupid things that people forget to do. ;) At the end of the week, we got a perfectly smooth trip home. Intrigued by all the "Hot Tunnel" talk during the week, we took our shoes off and felt the firewall, tunnel, and everything else both high and low. The tunnel does get warm, but I can keep my foot on it all day. Also, I have almost no warmth at the top of the tunnel, just the bottom, and if you move 6" to the left or right of the tunnel, it's not very warm at all. By the time you get to the front seat area, it's cool. I think the issue still deserves some diligent thinking, but I can't see why after taking a few small steps, this issue can't soon die. That should be encouraging. One side note is that my exhaust was shorter than Jesse's and Vic's. Vic has his extended. Jesse has a newer FWF kit. So apparently things today should be better for you new builders than for me. I'm going to check on getting longer pipes, just because you may as well do the easy and prudent things. One of the best things for me this year was not having to write huge checks at the show. I hope many of you got to the point where you get to make your final decisions, as it's a big relief. My big purchases were the Precise Flight Demand conservers http://www.preciseflight.com/viewpage.php?pID=25 for my Oxygen system. They supposedly save 3-5X the O2 over the oxysaver cannulas. The other big one was to buy Golden Eagle Chart Case Express. I use FlightPrep for flight planning, which is nice, and I have figured out a way to get almost all the approach charts updated and free monthly, but I still lacked all the current sectionals, WAC's, and Low-Alt Enroute charts on an updated basis. I also was missing not having an in-flight moving map for my tablet PC. So for $395 I bought Chart Case and it looks really cool. I haven't used it in flight yet, but it does include HITS, Terrain, and a few other neat things. Not something I'd want to use for an EFIS, but for tracking your progress on a chart it looks fairly nice, and it keeps me from having to buy current charts before a sudden trip. I figured worst case, I'd be current for a year on charts, and after that I'd be left with an out of date chart, but a nice in-flight tracking tablet. Updates are about 1/2 the price of the software, and stocking up on paper charts would have cost me much more than the updates for the tablet. Oh, and a flying highlight... I've always felt a little crazy about the trim speed thing on the -10 elevator. I've said it before, I think it needs some speed reduction at high airspeeds for safety's sake, but not at slow airspeeds...but qualified it that NEED may be a bad word. It's something that some people may think is needed and some not. So, I gave Bob and Ed the opportunity to hold the trim aft for a second while flying level. The funny thing is, Ed immediately bought a trim speed reduction system and Bob was planning to, after the demo. So I now know I'm not nuts, but it's just one of those things that's not quite bad enough to panic about but that many builders may want to do in the interest of safety. I love showing other builders some of these things and letting them decide. So, the company was great, the shows were good, the Vendors walked away with a little bit more of my cash, and I walked away with more people that I can call friends after meeting people in person. And everyone got to see more than double the number of RV-10's as last year. I just posted a pile of random photos, some were from Bob during the show and some are from other people. If you have more you want to add to it, just send them on. I've downsized them to 800 wide so they won't be too huge. http://www.myrv10.com/miscphotos/index.html Also attached, I have some shots of our drenching rain....an actually fun experience that will last with the kids for a lifetime. ;) -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:19 AM PST US From: Bill DeRouchey Subject: Re: RV10-List: -10's for sale in quantity, available today I have 1100 hours SEL private pilot with instrument rating. Most of my hours were in Cessna & Piper Archer class aircraft. Occasionally rented and have high performance and complex signoff. I took 6 hours of transitional training in an RV-10 and it will eliminate the biggest risk on my first flight -> ME. It was a big step from an Archer to the RV-10, and I believe the training to be very valuable. I can focus on the aircraft during the first flight and not attempt on-the-job training as well. Bill DeRouchey N939SB, Kit 40029 billderou@yahoo.com do not archive Russell Daves wrote: --> RV10-List message posted by: "Russell Daves" I insured my RV-10 with AIG through NationAir, who has carried my insurance on various airplanes for over 10 years. My insurance binder DID NOT require any RV-10 transition training and I added my buddy as a named pilot for no extra charge. I have in excess of 1400 hours (254 in an RV-6A), Instrument Rating, High Performance, and Complex Aircraft signoffs. I also have NO INSURANCE claims in my history. My buddy is a CFI, aerobatics competitor flying a YAK, with 2400 plus hours. I added Randy as a named insured to allow him to do some of the flyoff hours. Randy is a school teacher and provided me an extra pair of hands this summer while he was on break and not working a second job. I insured N710RV for $200,000 hull value with $100.00 deductible and 1 Mil liability. The premium is $3,710.00 per year. If someone gets a quote from an agent who tells you all insurance companies REQUIRE transition training in the RV-10, without regards to the insured's prior experience, the agent isn't doing you a very good job in negotiating a deal with the insurance company. An aviation insurance agent is your negotiator with the insurance company. If he or she is doing you a good job they will shop the coverage and negotiate you a better deal. The key is to start working with a good agent at least two months before you want the insurance coverage to allow them time to do their thing. It not a lot different than buying a car, if you walk in say you want that car and you want it today you WILL PAY a much higher price. Russ Daves N710RV - RV-10 Flying N65RV - RV-6A Sold ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:48 PM Choices for test pilot: 1) me, 260 hour pilot, instrument rating. Only real experience in C-172 and Warrior. Ten hours transition training in RV-10. 2) one of a few professional test pilots I know. Hours in the thousands. Types in the dozens. Conceptually, zero hours in the RV-10. The irony is that option 1) would be covered by our insurance. Option 2) would not be covered, unless I pay the test pilot to fly down to TX and then pay for him to fly with Alex for 10 hours. That's probably $2000 and having to fine someone who doesn't mind using one of their weekends to go to TX . . .. TDT 40025 -----Original Message----- Sent: Mon 7/31/2006 9:32 PM --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" There are a number of highly skilled For Hire Pilots who will make the initial flight and help establish the OCF quack list. Operational Check Flight. Make sure they know both your make of airframe and your specific model. Test Pilots are a bold breed. Fly within the FAA designated restricted OCF area until you know it is working fine. You might lose power and have to land before you planned. Get frequent EAA Tech Advisor inspections along the build process. John $00.02 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:49 PM Ask your insurance agent who is required crew for the 10? Unless you like going bare I would ask the agent not the FAA. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 9:23 AM today James, Nothing in the rule says it has to be the builder to fly off the hours, To the contrary lot's of people hire a "test pilot" to fly off several of the hours. Another misnomer is that only one person can be in the aircraft during flyoff but it is actually "required crew". Michael ________________________________ [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James K Hovis Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:23 AM today I have to ask a question about the "build to order" aircraft: Who's flying off the 25 hrs? I think it boils down to who it is applying for the initial airworthiness certificate, is it the "owner"-the guy who ordered the "build to order" or is it the builder? As it is now, my interpretation of the 51% rule leads me to believe the owner-builder has to be the one who makes the original application for the airworthiness cert and he/she should be the one who flies off the test period hours. And the initial registration named owner should match to builder-owner on the airworthiness cert. I think looking at these things would probably identify those who are violating the 51% rule fairly quickly, if a "complete" aircraft is sold before the test period is over raises a real red flag to me. But, what's to limit some guy from building an airplane, flying off the test period quickly, and then selling the airplane? Does this "qualify" as a "build to order" shop? I think the sale of complete RV-10's especially makes it rather lucrative to cheat the system. Yes, I know I asked about value before, but my motive wasn't for a quick sale, but to see if future market would support re-couping my investment should I decide to build/buy something else a few years down the road. The Feds can pretty well see who it is that's "building to order". As quoted somewhere in this thread someone was saying he could turn around an airplane in three months. That's a major red flag the Feds should be looking for. A raid on that person's operation may be in order. I think turning over four or more kit airplanes a year would definitely qualify a person as a "professional" aircraft builder requiring full conformity to Part 23 and Part 21. Perhaps that's the solution, only one or two airworthiness certs can be issued to any one individual unless they hold or are also applying for a production cert under Part 21 within a year. As Tim points out, keeping a good builder's log and when asked by your DAR is your BEST (and probably ONLY) proof that YOU did the work to put your dream together. Those yayhoos paying some guy to build their airplane and then telling the Feds they built them is only hurting the rest of us who want to do it right. What I'm afraid of is the typical knee-jerk reaction the Feds typically have and we'll end up with a draconian rule that totally hurts the aviation homebuilder/experimenter. James K. Hovis On 7/31/06, Wayne Edgerton wrote: One way that the FAA might possible be able to curb the "build to sell" crowd would be to put a time line on when a newly built plane could be sold or owners changed. As an example lets say the plane couldn't be sold to a new owner until 6 or 12 months after the hours are flown off or until it has so many hours on it like 300 hours. Then allow a waiver to this in the case of certain conditions such as death of the builder or maybe hell freezing over, something along those lines. Wayne Edgerton #40336 Engine work do not archive =================================== =================================== =================================== =================================== ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:33 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Survey of the day: windshield visors --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I wish... Right now, I use my arm, while holding my hand on the center post of the windshield. I talked to Mike Fiske at Rosen again while at OSH and he told me once again that they have too big of a contract right now with a couple of projects they're doing so their engineering dept. just doesn't have time for our -10 visors yet. So don't hold your breath on those for a while. I dont' know about others, but I could sure use some and will probably build my own soon if I can't get something in the near future. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" > > I forgot to even make an analysis at Oshkosh. > > What are folks doing for windshield visors? > a) nothing? > b) Rosen? > c) other aircraft visor? > d) used visors from a 81 Chevy Chevette? > > TDT > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:45 AM PST US From: Dan Masys Subject: RV10-List: Re: insurance requirements --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys ---- Russell Daves wrote: > I insured my RV-10 with AIG through NationAir, who has carried my insurance > on various airplanes for over 10 years. My insurance binder DID NOT require > any RV-10 transition training and I added my buddy as a named pilot for no > extra charge. I have in excess of 1400 hours (254 in an RV-6A), Instrument > Rating, High Performance, and Complex Aircraft signoffs. I also have NO > INSURANCE claims in my history. Just to keep it interesting, it happens that yesterday I contacted JT Helms at NationAir about the need for transition training. My story is a lot like Russ': 1700 PIC, instrument current, high perf, complex endorsement, no claims,and > 200 hrs in my 200hp/CS -7A, which is insured by NationAir. Here is JT's reply from 7/31/06: "I'm positive that they would require some time. I just checked with another agent here that handles a lot of RVs and she and I were both thinking 5 hours max. The company that has been a little more competitive, and which has a better policy (Global's EAA Program) will almost surely ask for a checkout to include 5 hours. AIG would also likely ask for 3 -5 hours. But, their policy for in flight RVs is not nearly as good as Global's, especially during the fly off restrictions. Please let me know if you have any additional questions. John JT Helms Branch Manager NationAir Insurance Agencies, Inc. " So maybe the playing field is changing, or maybe it just depends what day of the week you ask. -Dan Masys 40448 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:57 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: 40Hrs & Numbers --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson The same for me! I never was there as early before, and I truly didn't believe the people who said the crowds are on Monday/Tuesday. I thought FOR SURE the most planes would come at the end of the week and especially Saturday. Turns out I was dead wrong. I know one thing for sure, next year I'm coming on Saturday or Sunday before, and saying at least until Friday/Saturday! Tim Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Scott Schmidt wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Scott Schmidt" > > Those last 100 hours have turned into another 1000 hours I think. > But it will be worth it. I've already put 2500 hours into this project > and I'm not going to skimp on the final 100 hours. > I wanted to make Oshkosh but due to late shipments of certain pieces of > avionics I wasn't able to get the wiring finished plus I had some fun > trips I wanted to make this spring and summer on my motorcycle. > > I had a great time at Oshkosh this year and was one of my favorite > years. I was there from Sunday to Sunday and this was the first time I > had been there the first three days of the show. The past 11 years I > have arrived on Wednesday night and I really noticed a big difference in > the crowds. The hangers were packed early in the week and pretty open > on Friday and Saturday. I had always though that Thursday and Friday > would be the days with the most airplanes but Monday and Tuesday are > definitely the busiest days. > > The great thing about Oshkosh is that by the time I leave on Sunday, the > next Oshkosh is less than a year away. > > > Scott Schmidt > sschmidt@ussynthetic.com > > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox > Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 8:04 PM > > Congratulations Jesse. Scott Schmidt can tell you the work involved in > those last 100 hours. It will be a highlight of OSH '06 to see all of > your hard work in person. > > John Cox > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:22 AM PST US From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Survey of the day: windshield visors --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" I see Spruce has generic "homebuilt" Rosen visors for less than $200 . . .. Of course if you want to "pimp your ride", Rosen now makes a line of visors for custom tuned cars - your choice of colors and shapes . . . : ) TDT -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:51 PM --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I wish... Right now, I use my arm, while holding my hand on the center post of the windshield. I talked to Mike Fiske at Rosen again while at OSH and he told me once again that they have too big of a contract right now with a couple of projects they're doing so their engineering dept. just doesn't have time for our -10 visors yet. So don't hold your breath on those for a while. I dont' know about others, but I could sure use some and will probably build my own soon if I can't get something in the near future. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" > > I forgot to even make an analysis at Oshkosh. > > What are folks doing for windshield visors? > a) nothing? > b) Rosen? > c) other aircraft visor? > d) used visors from a 81 Chevy Chevette? > > TDT > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:34 AM PST US From: "Phillips, Jack" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: insurance requirements --> RV10-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" FWIW, when I bought my RV-4 last year and insured it with Global (through Falcon/EAA), they only required 2 hours of dual. I expect they would want more in the RV-10 because it doesn't have the track record of the RV-4 and is worth a bunch more. However, it is not a taildragger and is considerably easier to fly than the RV-4 (at least the one flight I had in a -10 seemed to be a lot easier - much more stable and solid. An RV-4 is a lot "twitchier"). Jack Phillips #40610 Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Masys Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:56 PM --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys ---- Russell Daves wrote: > I insured my RV-10 with AIG through NationAir, who has carried my insurance > on various airplanes for over 10 years. My insurance binder DID NOT require > any RV-10 transition training and I added my buddy as a named pilot for no > extra charge. I have in excess of 1400 hours (254 in an RV-6A), Instrument > Rating, High Performance, and Complex Aircraft signoffs. I also have NO > INSURANCE claims in my history. Just to keep it interesting, it happens that yesterday I contacted JT Helms at NationAir about the need for transition training. My story is a lot like Russ': 1700 PIC, instrument current, high perf, complex endorsement, no claims,and > 200 hrs in my 200hp/CS -7A, which is insured by NationAir. Here is JT's reply from 7/31/06: "I'm positive that they would require some time. I just checked with another agent here that handles a lot of RVs and she and I were both thinking 5 hours max. The company that has been a little more competitive, and which has a better policy (Global's EAA Program) will almost surely ask for a checkout to include 5 hours. AIG would also likely ask for 3 -5 hours. But, their policy for in flight RVs is not nearly as good as Global's, especially during the fly off restrictions. Please let me know if you have any additional questions. John JT Helms Branch Manager NationAir Insurance Agencies, Inc. " So maybe the playing field is changing, or maybe it just depends what day of the week you ask. -Dan Masys 40448 _________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:56 AM PST US From: "Albert Gardner" Subject: RV10-List: Lycoming Suffix Information --> RV10-List message posted by: "Albert Gardner" I understand there is a FAA web page that identifies what all of the suffix letters mean for their engines. I did some searching but can't find it, does anyone have a link to it? Albert Gardner Yuma, AZ ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:47 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: A fantastic flight, and Week - Long, but positive Great write-up Tim. I was actually thinking about getting better/earlier spots next year without someone like Bob having to come in early. We can figure it out in 11 months but it's only 30 minutes away for me and I can easily go down on the day Scholler opens and snag spots. Maybe we can come up with some mini Paypal/reservation method so none of us get shorted because we grabbed too many sites and then just split it between the campers. I mentioned earlier that John Forsling is going to redo my exhaust for heat muffs and also add a turndown at the end of the pipe. I have attached a picture of one of his exhausts with the turndown. I also attached an exhaust modification that John Cox was talking about that helps to smooth the airflow around the exhaust as it exits the cowl. I told Forsling about it but I'm not sure if he got over to see it. Deems or someone was going to send him the pictures though. Lastly to the trim speed issue, I think I posted this before also but these guys make an automatic trim speed adjustment that can be set to a specific airspeed. I am also going to use their flap positioning system with the automatic trim compensation. http://www.aircraftextras.com/RelaySpeedCont1.htm http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm Michael -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 11:42 AM So how about a positive story! Last week at OSH turned out to be fantastic all the way around except for some sticky heat. You know, Wisconsin gets warm in the summer, but it's a wet heat. ;) We got dumped on by rain a few times, but the tent never got wet inside. I can't believe how many of the people I met who were on the OSH / RV-10 builders list. It was incredible! One night I popped up the page and talked with Andrea and we looked down the list one by one and checked them off as best we could. I really feel bad that I still can't put a face to the name on some of you, but your names stick out in my head pretty well. Over time, the more often we meet, I'll hopefully get better. The list ended up being over 1/4 of the RV-10 population, and except for 1, all planes listed as coming did show...the one that didn't was a wisely made move to not fly a plane to OSH that had an issue that needed to be addressed. There were also a couple that weren't on the list. Thanks to those who took the time to send the info ahead. I proved the reliability of this list to Jeff who parked us, by showing that we had a very close number of actuals to expecteds. They thought there would be a lot more....and actually, so did I. I guessed 20 would happen. Well, next year I bet there's no way we'll have less than 25. Lots of completions are just around the corner. RV-10 HQ was a pretty good success this year, due to the wonderous works of Bob Condrey with his early arrival and internet access for OSH updates. Gary also helped me out a ton personally by allowing me to offload some of my camping gear onto his motorhome so we could travel a bit heavier. Every night people showed up...not in droves, but with enough supply to keep the conversation going. We had some of the best sites available in scholler, and are currently contemplating how to make it work better next year to get even more spaces, and good ones at that. Me being close, I may be the guy to fly over there and stake some out well ahead. It depends on how organized we get about it, as sites run $18/day from the day you stake them out....but if we can coordinate who's showing up and leaving, it may be a great way to get some shaded spots near the -10 gang. My RV-10 flights to and from were fantastic! We had an hour of time almost on the nuts to go from KLUM to KOSH, with just a little extension to that time for flying the RIPON-FISK-OSH approach. We had a couple of noodleheads in front of us on some of the approaches, as usual, but despite their attemps, we lived through it fine. ;) For those flying to OSH, please, read the NOTAM in detail and you'll have a great time. I gave a couple people rides on Monday, but have quickly decided that OSH is just not the best place for that. The worst of it was the heat and taxi getting in and out, but the FISK approach can get you tied up as well, and it makes the whole thing a bit rushed. Next year I'll just park and enjoy it for the whole week, but we did have fun. My favorite approach is the 18R approach...you stay above 1500' until you cross 9/27 and then they call your "blue dot" to land. When I had Bob C. and Ed H. out for a flight, I didn't think I'd be able to drop fast enough to make my spot, but by using a nearly full rudder forward slip, it unbelievable came out awesome. On Wednesday, I zipped home to get the kids and did a quick turn with only 1.5 hours at home and made it back before the show. Shot up through a scattered layer on the way home, and was VFR on top in beautiful skies. Punched the TruTrak altitude hold at 8510' and it never swayed beyond 8500 or 8520'. On the way back, the cumulus had started to build, and at 9500' we occasionally had to do slight deviations to avoid a 10K' climber. Got to shoot down through another hole in a broken area at about 45 miles outside of OSH, and the kids just thought it was beautiful seeing the puffy white clouds appear just outside their window, slowly making us feel small as we descended. Once we were back on field for the show, parked up on the front flightline, the field was overcome by torrent of rain, which led to one of the funnier moments of the week (see attached photos). We scrambled under the plane, getting dripped on by blown raindrops dripping off the airframe. Vic and Carol quickly put the top cover on, and climbed under their plane. People climbed under Debbie's plane as well. As we laid there getting wet, I yelled out "Hey, why didn't we just get IN the plane!?!?". Sometimes it's the little stupid things that people forget to do. ;) At the end of the week, we got a perfectly smooth trip home. Intrigued by all the "Hot Tunnel" talk during the week, we took our shoes off and felt the firewall, tunnel, and everything else both high and low. The tunnel does get warm, but I can keep my foot on it all day. Also, I have almost no warmth at the top of the tunnel, just the bottom, and if you move 6" to the left or right of the tunnel, it's not very warm at all. By the time you get to the front seat area, it's cool. I think the issue still deserves some diligent thinking, but I can't see why after taking a few small steps, this issue can't soon die. That should be encouraging. One side note is that my exhaust was shorter than Jesse's and Vic's. Vic has his extended. Jesse has a newer FWF kit. So apparently things today should be better for you new builders than for me. I'm going to check on getting longer pipes, just because you may as well do the easy and prudent things. One of the best things for me this year was not having to write huge checks at the show. I hope many of you got to the point where you get to make your final decisions, as it's a big relief. My big purchases were the Precise Flight Demand conservers http://www.preciseflight.com/viewpage.php?pID=25 for my Oxygen system. They supposedly save 3-5X the O2 over the oxysaver cannulas. The other big one was to buy Golden Eagle Chart Case Express. I use FlightPrep for flight planning, which is nice, and I have figured out a way to get almost all the approach charts updated and free monthly, but I still lacked all the current sectionals, WAC's, and Low-Alt Enroute charts on an updated basis. I also was missing not having an in-flight moving map for my tablet PC. So for $395 I bought Chart Case and it looks really cool. I haven't used it in flight yet, but it does include HITS, Terrain, and a few other neat things. Not something I'd want to use for an EFIS, but for tracking your progress on a chart it looks fairly nice, and it keeps me from having to buy current charts before a sudden trip. I figured worst case, I'd be current for a year on charts, and after that I'd be left with an out of date chart, but a nice in-flight tracking tablet. Updates are about 1/2 the price of the software, and stocking up on paper charts would have cost me much more than the updates for the tablet. Oh, and a flying highlight... I've always felt a little crazy about the trim speed thing on the -10 elevator. I've said it before, I think it needs some speed reduction at high airspeeds for safety's sake, but not at slow airspeeds...but qualified it that NEED may be a bad word. It's something that some people may think is needed and some not. So, I gave Bob and Ed the opportunity to hold the trim aft for a second while flying level. The funny thing is, Ed immediately bought a trim speed reduction system and Bob was planning to, after the demo. So I now know I'm not nuts, but it's just one of those things that's not quite bad enough to panic about but that many builders may want to do in the interest of safety. I love showing other builders some of these things and letting them decide. So, the company was great, the shows were good, the Vendors walked away with a little bit more of my cash, and I walked away with more people that I can call friends after meeting people in person. And everyone got to see more than double the number of RV-10's as last year. I just posted a pile of random photos, some were from Bob during the show and some are from other people. If you have more you want to add to it, just send them on. I've downsized them to 800 wide so they won't be too huge. http://www.myrv10.com/miscphotos/index.html Also attached, I have some shots of our drenching rain....an actually fun experience that will last with the kids for a lifetime. ;) -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:48 AM PST US From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Suffix Information --> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" Here are two sources for the info. The Lycoming document is actually easier to sort through since it's more concise. http://www.lycoming.textron.com/productSales/engineSpecifications/SSP204 .pdf http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.ns f Bob #40105 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert Gardner Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:17 PM --> RV10-List message posted by: "Albert Gardner" I understand there is a FAA web page that identifies what all of the suffix letters mean for their engines. I did some searching but can't find it, does anyone have a link to it? Albert Gardner Yuma, AZ ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:27 PM PST US From: "Phillips, Jack" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Suffix Information --> RV10-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" Try this: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:I9NCUkeXRGcJ:rvimg.com/tcds/lycoming -io-540.pdf+lycoming+io-540&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3 Jack Phillips #40610 Tail -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert Gardner Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 2:17 PM --> RV10-List message posted by: "Albert Gardner" I understand there is a FAA web page that identifies what all of the suffix letters mean for their engines. I did some searching but can't find it, does anyone have a link to it? Albert Gardner Yuma, AZ _________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 12:33:25 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RE: RV10-List: Lycoming Suffix Information --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim also has a PDF on his web site for Lycoming engine variants. Jim Combs Do Not Archive =========================================================== --> RV10-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" Here are two sources for the info. The Lycoming document is actually easier to sort through since it's more concise. http://www.lycoming.textron.com/productSales/engineSpecifications/SSP204 .pdf http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.ns f Bob #40105 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert Gardner Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:17 PM --> RV10-List message posted by: "Albert Gardner" I understand there is a FAA web page that identifies what all of the suffix letters mean for their engines. I did some searching but can't find it, does anyone have a link to it? Albert Gardner Yuma, AZ =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:34 PM PST US From: "ddddsp1@juno.com" Subject: RV10-List: RE: Altering the Exhaust? As I read some of these post on the exhaust and how builders are going t o ALTER the pipes, bend them, cut them, etc. You may want to give Larry Vetterman a call before you do that and insure you are NOT changing the performance/porting when you make those changes. With a tuned exhaust system you may be creating additional problems trying to correct one. I am NOT saying your changes WILL effect the engine performance, but I wo uld talk to the exhaust PRO before I modified his proven system. FWIW, Dean 40449 ________________________________________________________________________ Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!

As I read some of these post on the exhaust and how builders ar e going to ALTER the pipes, bend them, cut them, etc.  You may want to give Larry Vetterman a call before you do that and insure you a re NOT changing the performance/porting when you make those changes.&nbs p; With a tuned exhaust system you may be creating additional problems t rying to correct one.  I am NOT saying your changes WILL effect the engine performance, but I would talk to the exhaust PRO before I modifi ed his proven system.

FWIW,

Dean

40449



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 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:56 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: Altering the Exhaust? --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I had been told at OSH by people that it probably wouldn't make a difference. But, your post got me motivated, so I talked to the PRO himself just now on the phone. He says he doesn't think it would make any difference and says it could probably be lengthened or changed up to a foot with no performance penalty. So, he's making me up a set of 6" extensions I can try so I can see if it helps or changes anything at all. If by some chance they change heat or noise significantly, I'll probably see if I can buy a longer set of pipes. He did say though that other than one builder, he hasn't had anyone really complain that there's a heat problem. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive ddddsp1@juno.com wrote: > As I read some of these post on the exhaust and how builders are going > to ALTER the pipes, bend them, cut them, etc. You may want to give > Larry Vetterman a call before you do that and insure you are NOT > changing the performance/porting when you make those changes. With a > tuned exhaust system you may be creating additional problems trying to > correct one. I am NOT saying your changes WILL effect the engine > performance, but I would talk to the exhaust PRO before I modified his > proven system. > > FWIW, > > Dean > > 40449 > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:18 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: RV10-List: more on conditional inspections .... again --> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters John W. Cox wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" > >Linn, I respect your opinion > OK, you're on my good side!!! :-) >and would just like to restate what should >become more obvious to kit build owners. Each year and especially over >the next ten, a significant percentage of A & P mechanics with IA >designation are retiring. Many are dropping out due to unreasonably >high insurance rates and increasing risk. > That's aparent. And there doesn't seem to be eager, younger, motivated candidates to fill those shoes. >The FAA held a seminar on Aging Certified Aircraft at OSH. These risks >are increasing, the payment received is not. > Amen to that! I don't know how my two A&P/IAs can make a living. It surely isn't from me since I do all my own work and they do the inspection. > Homebuilts have a >statistically much higher chance of accident and fatalities. When an >owner/builder/repairman sells his prized asset it is seldom with the >volumes of clear, concise instruction for the continued airworthiness of >a certificated production aircraft or with a trained, informed Customer >Service rep back at the factory (required by the FAA). They are all One >of a Kind beauties in the eye of the seller. Their documentation is >often a joke. > And I'm in that same boat. My documentation meets the requirements .... more than that? Nah. I hate paperwork. >I think it is wonderful that you have such a mechanic. > Me too. They are friends too! > Are you aware if >he/she might be operating without insurance. Many are. The statement >an airplane is an airplane is unfortunately naively vague. > I disagree. The shape is different or the construction materials are different ..... but all the systems are pretty much the same. I find that construction issues are something the inspector can't change ...... but a second pair of trained eyes is important ..... it's why us builders look at each others projects and flying machines with such a critical eye. I think we're safer for that. My A&Ps love my Pitts, and every time they get a chance to eyeball it, they point out stuff or ask questions. We both gain from that ..... I get an educated viewpoint from them, and they learn about rag and tube construction. And it's the little things that count. I still have to really think hard about routing and the twisting of safety wire ..... I'd rather just loop it over the top of the bolt. But that's not proper (per them) so I spend a fair amount of time pondering the 'proper' way. It's the little things. And there's also the signature (if required) that can be withheld when a homebuilder just plain refuses to do something correctly. I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself very well here. But bottom line, if one of my A&Ps makes a comment I have the opportunity to do the research, learn from the comment, and either accept or refute it. I will have to say that one of the A&Ps, although his repairs are technically correct .... he's far from a craftsman. More like a neanderthal with a hatchet. :-P > Many >homebuilders gain needed information on continued airworthiness by word >of mouth not through factory guidance. The documentation is frequently >woefully inadequate. I have many close friends who own warbirds and >face such an extreme cost to maintain those great aged assets they look >for Pen 'N Ink Annual Inspections. > The Feds send me airworthiness info if they know what I have ..... engines, vacuum pumps, bad hardware etc. ..... but you're right. The only way most of us know about failure modes comes from a support group of owners. The newbies ask the pro's (nicer than "older folks" :-) ) and the knowledge is passed on. There is that difference though, between certificated and experimental documentation. >Keep up your optimism > Sometimes it's tough! > but my friends at work will enjoy reading about >your respect for their professionalism. If the pay was commensurate, >more might stay. > Oh yeah, I feel your pain. The A&P union seems to have fallen down on the job .... and there's a lot of owners that I hear from complaining about the annual from hell ....... yeah, I'm in that pile too .... I've beat up on my friends every year trying to keep my flying expenses down. My bad, I guess, but it's always been that way. I think that if more owners assisted in their annuals (or conditional inspections) the not too frequent airplane failur failure rate would go down. There is not anything we can do about stupid pilot tricks though. Linn do not archive ......in case it isn't somewhere else in the email!!! > >John Cox > >-----Original Message----- >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters >Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:09 PM > >--> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters > > >Sorry Kelly, but I respectfully disagree. If I was an A&P, I'd be >rather put out with your characterization. An airplane is an airplane, >and the training that an A&P has applies to systems and construction no >matter if it's assembled by an amateur or an airplane company. I would >expect that an A&P would apply the same basic inspection technique for a > >Piper 100 hr. or annual inspection to an experimental ...... which would > >check all the basic systems. It's what he's trained to do. It's what >he's paid to do. There are a lot of experimentals at my airport that >aren't owned by the builder, and the A&Ps that inspect my certificated >aircraft, also inspect those experimentals. I don't think of them as >ignorant, without a clue, or fools. I think of them as professionals >that they are, and am open minded enouth to learn from them. >Linn >do not archive > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:21 PM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: RE: Altering the Exhaust? With my exhaust system I am not modifying anything. It is being built by John Forsling who goes way back with Vetterman. John has done a lot of work with exhaust systems over the years, including running different exhaust styles on dynos, and is one of the experts. One of the things that were discovered in dyno tests is that tuning doesn't make a difference on most of these engines including ours which echo's what Tim said. Michael ________________________________ [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ddddsp1@juno.com Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 2:46 PM As I read some of these post on the exhaust and how builders are going to ALTER the pipes, bend them, cut them, etc. You may want to give Larry Vetterman a call before you do that and insure you are NOT changing the performance/porting when you make those changes. With a tuned exhaust system you may be creating additional problems trying to correct one. I am NOT saying your changes WILL effect the engine performance, but I would talk to the exhaust PRO before I modified his proven system. FWIW, Dean 40449 ________________________________________________________________________ Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:40 PM PST US From: "ddddsp1@juno.com" Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: Altering the Exhaust? Tim, That will be a good test on your plane since you already have several ho urs of data to compare it too. Did you ask Larry about putting any bend s or curves in the pipe? Just adding length probably would not increase exhaust back pressure much but I would think if people got carried away with putting major bends in the pipes it would change the dynamics. HO WEVER, as the builder we can do whatever we want.........build on. Dean 40449 P.S. Engine inspector called today.......he was impressed how clean and well preserved the O-540 was and said it should be ready to mount on the plane by the 12th of Aug! I will sleep easier hearing that. ________________________________________________________________________ Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!

Tim,

That will be a good test on your plane since you already have several hours of data to compare it too.  Did you ask Larry about putting any bends or curves in the pipe?  Just adding length probably would not increase exhaust back pressure much but I would think if peopl e got carried away with putting major bends in the pipes it would change the dynamics.  HOWEVER, as the builder we can do whatever we want.........build on. 

Dean 40449

P.S. Engine inspector called today.......he was impressed how clean a nd well preserved the O-540 was and said it should be ready to mount on the plane by the 12th of Aug!  I will sleep easier hearing that.



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 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 04:18:54 PM PST US From: "John Gonzalez" Subject: RE: RV10-List: conditional inspections --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" There is another! I am not the originator of those quotes only another enjoyer. JOhn G. 409 >From: Rick >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV10-List: conditional inspections >Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 06:57:56 -0700 (GMT-07:00) > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick > >John you crack me up with those Joda quotes :) > >Rick S. >40185 > >I love a good fight....from a distance. I like Mr. John Cox, a true >gentlemen and quite dashing!!! > > >do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:38 PM PST US From: "KiloPapa" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Survey of the day: windshield visors --> RV10-List message posted by: "KiloPapa" Would any of the current Rosen visors be adaptable? We have a set of Rosens in a C-182 but I am not that far along with the -10 to explore that idea. Kevin 40494 tail/empennage do not archive ----- Original Message ----- > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > I wish... > > Right now, I use my arm, while holding my hand on the center > post of the windshield. I talked to Mike Fiske at Rosen again > while at OSH and he told me once again that they have too > big of a contract right now with a couple of projects they're > doing so their engineering dept. just doesn't have time for our > -10 visors yet. So don't hold your breath on those for a while. > I dont' know about others, but I could sure use some and will > probably build my own soon if I can't get something in the > near future. > > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > do not archive > > > Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote: >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" >> >> >> I forgot to even make an analysis at Oshkosh. What are folks doing for >> windshield visors? >> a) nothing? >> b) Rosen? >> c) other aircraft visor? >> d) used visors from a 81 Chevy Chevette? >> >> TDT ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:15 PM PST US From: "Jack Sargeant" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People I just downloaded Greg's paper last night and have read only part of it. In what I have read so far he has some good ideas, but I take strong exception to some of his recommendations concerning shielding. Specifically his statements about grounding shields on one end only! While there are cases where grounding shields at both ends can cause problems with ground loops or where the "ground" is at different voltages at each end, the general rule is that at RF frequencies a shield is not a shield unless it is properly terminated at both ends, and in most cases work better at all frequencies when so terminated. The practice of terminating shields at one end only originated many years ago with the telephone companies where the highest frequencies encountered were in the audio range and where the connected equipment was likely to be separated by significant distances. I do agree with Greg's recommendation to use return leads rather than depending on aircraft structure for the return. The concept of twisting wires together is very good, although I believe that it should be done primarily, if not only, with pairs (Supply voltage and return, signal and return, etc.) because it helps to significantly reduce the vulnerability of this wiring to noise interference and to the radiation of noise. Jack Sargeant 1127 Patricia St. Wichita, KS 67208-2642 316/683-5268 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:35 AM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People HOW DARE YOU! Oh wait, I agree with you. I think Bob's book is worth every dime for guys like me that are strictly laymen. I personally don't see it as a bible like many others and I have criticized people over on that list for putting him on a pedestal. His list has a lot of good discussions as long as you can separate the wheat from the chaff but there is a whole lot of cheerleading. It does seem to be going to his head a bit as his discussions are turning more philosophical than actually useful. But I digress. The Aeroelectric Connection is really just a collection of very old and well proven design philosophies but nothing ground shattering. As for Greg's book, I too attended his seminar at the 2005 Airventure and read his whitepaper. Good stuff also. It's funny how a little feud started between Greg and Bob a while back witch spawned Greg's paper. Is either approach wrong, not really. They just represent different design philosophies. Michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 4:16 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People Not to be blasphemous, but has anyone else found "The AeroElectric Connection" somewhat anti-climatic, compared to the way it is often talked about as a document right up there with the Bible, the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence? It seems to have some areas in need of an update, and a lot of focus on plastic airplanes. Certainly there's some good information in there, but you'd think the thing could walk on water . . .. TDT 40025 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Reining Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:04 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People I attended a workshop given by Greg Richter of Blue Mountain Avionics on Saturday at Oshkosh entitled "Aircraft Wiring for Smart People". It was excellent. Each member of the audience was given a 39 page handout at the start of the forum, which served as the basis for the lecture. While you may not agree on all the recommendations it contains (such as using a 28V system), it sure does provide good information for planning and implementing your system. For those of you who missed this forum, here's the link to the same handout, available as a PDF file on the Blue Mountain Avionics website. http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/aircraft_wiring_04december2004.pdf By the way, be sure to also visit the AeroElectic website: http://www.aeroelectric.com, and purchase their excellent book on the same subject: "The AeroElectric Connection". Bill Reining RV-10 40514 Tail Cone ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:31 PM PST US From: "Jack Sargeant" Subject: RE: RV10-List: -10's for sale in quantity, available today Re: RV10-List: -10's for sale in quantity, available todayCorrect! Unless, or course, I can't read or understand the FARs. Jack & Cecilia Sargeant 1127 Patricia St. Wichita, KS 67208-2642 316/683-5268 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lockamy, Jack L Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:01 AM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: -10's for sale in quantity, available today The "buyer" can still do any/all of the maintenance on the airplane. An A&P is NOT required for maintenance on the aircraft, however the buyer could elect to hire an A&P is he so desires or is not comfortable doing a particular maintenance task. An A&P is only required to sign off the Annual Condition Inspection as the "buyer" does not hold the Repairman Certificate for that particular aircraft. Jack ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:03 PM PST US From: "Jack Sargeant" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant My preference is CCI. Never had a misfire even with a soft hammer spring. Jack & Cecilia Sargeant 1127 Patricia St. Wichita, KS 67208-2642 316/683-5268 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of linn Walters Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:11 AM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: Sure, I can end it right now. Hey guys, what kind of primer should I use? I'm partial to the 'red dot' primer. It seats well in the casing and misfires are rare. :-D Linn Michael LMAO do not archive ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:46 AM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Atrocious - Long Rant Holy cow! Will this rant ever end? Kevin 40494 tail/empennage do not archive ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:30 PM PST US From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" Subject: RE: RV10-List: conditional inspections Regretful I am that Yoda quotes started I have. TDT archive do not -----Original Message----- Sent: Tue 8/1/2006 7:15 PM --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" There is another! I am not the originator of those quotes only another enjoyer. JOhn G. 409 >From: Rick >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV10-List: conditional inspections >Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 06:57:56 -0700 (GMT-07:00) > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick > >John you crack me up with those Joda quotes :) > >Rick S. >40185 > >I love a good fight....from a distance. I like Mr. John Cox, a true >gentlemen and quite dashing!!! > > >do not archive > > ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:46 PM PST US From: "Robert G. Wright" Subject: RV10-List: AF3500 Rob H., are you out there? Wondering if there is a side view drawing of the 3500. Basically wondering what the behind-the-panel footprint is so I can plan out that whole sub-panel rib mod if necessary. Rob Wright #392 Wings ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:27 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: Altering the Exhaust? --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson Dean, I didn't ask about any bends or curves, but the bends Michael was talking about are barely bends at all, just a slight downturn at the end. I really doubt that anyone would be able to get too wild with the little ends of the exhaust in a way that would cause big problems. My goal is to see if these extensions, that should add about 3" of length, actually do anything. I'll treat them as temporary. If they do anything amazing, I know I can buy totally new, one piece tailpipes for $100 or less, so that's what I'd ultimately do. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive ddddsp1@juno.com wrote: > Tim, > > That will be a good test on your plane since you already have several > hours of data to compare it too. Did you ask Larry about putting any > bends or curves in the pipe? Just adding length probably would not > increase exhaust back pressure much but I would think if people got > carried away with putting major bends in the pipes it would change the > dynamics. HOWEVER, as the builder we can do whatever we > want.........build on. > > Dean 40449 ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:37 PM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: Altering the Exhaust? --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis Mike and I talked to John Forsling specifically abaout this @ OSH, and he said that the downturn and additional length adds NO back pressure and creates NO adverse affects on engine performance. He did say that it would significantly help to quite the noise level in the cockpit, and keep the belly of the aircraft cleaner. Deems Davis # 406 Fuse/Finishing/Panel http://deemsrv10.com/ Tim Olson wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > Dean, > > I didn't ask about any bends or curves, but the bends Michael was > talking about are barely bends at all, just a slight downturn > at the end. I really doubt that anyone would be able to get > too wild with the little ends of the exhaust in a way that would > cause big problems. My goal is to see if these extensions, > that should add about 3" of length, actually do anything. I'll > treat them as temporary. If they do anything amazing, I know I > can buy totally new, one piece tailpipes for $100 or less, so > that's what I'd ultimately do. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > do not archive > > > ddddsp1@juno.com wrote: > >> Tim, >> >> That will be a good test on your plane since you already have several >> hours of data to compare it too. Did you ask Larry about putting any >> bends or curves in the pipe? Just adding length probably would not >> increase exhaust back pressure much but I would think if people got >> carried away with putting major bends in the pipes it would change >> the dynamics. HOWEVER, as the builder we can do whatever we >> want.........build on. >> Dean 40449 > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:03 PM PST US From: Rick Subject: Re: RV10-List: AF3500 --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:25 PM PST US From: LessDragProd@AOL.COM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: MT at OSH One of the USA MT distributors tried to "lock out" other USA MT distributors from manning the MT Propeller booth. I know this, because I had been invited to work in the MT Propeller booth in a rotation program that MT Propeller had just started. This other USA MT distributor made it very difficult for the MT Propeller owner, Gerd Muhlbauer, and the other MT Propeller employees. So much so, that only MT Propeller employees are now allowed to work in the booth. I felt that the time I spent working in the MT Propeller booth at the airshow gave me a much better insight into the product, the company and the people. I feel that the plan to rotate all of the USA distributors through the MT Propeller booth was a very good idea. Unfortunately, one egocentric USA distributor destroyed this for all of the other USA MT distributors. And also for potential MT Propeller customers. MT Propeller USA in DeLand, Florida, is owned by MT Propeller. The people from MT Propeller USA will be manning the MT Propeller booth at Sun-N-Fun next year. I believe they are all native USA, or have been here to long to still be considered German. :-) Regards, Jim Ayers In a message dated 07/31/2006 8:15:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rvbuilder@sausen.net writes: --> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" One thing I would like to say about MT @ OSH, it would be nice if they had US distributors man their booth. I went in there asking questions and was basically given the model number and shoved out of the booth by a little annoying German guy. If they didn't have a good history I would have changed my mind on the spot. Something to take back to them Jim. Michael ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:50 PM PST US From: Rick Subject: RE: RV10-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:26 PM PST US From: Rick Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: MT at OSH --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:10 PM PST US From: Rick Subject: RE: RV10-List: conditional inspections --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick Splains that Tequila thing :) or was that someone else too?? Rick S. 40185 do not archive ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:01 PM PST US From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" Subject: RV10-List: RE: X-plane model Here I found a file which appears to have an RV-10 model for X-Plane: http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?autocom=dlmanager&do=viewfile&fid =4965 TDT 40025 -----Original Message----- Sent: Wed 8/2/2006 1:13 AM --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis Mike and I talked to John Forsling specifically abaout this @ OSH, and he said that the downturn and additional length adds NO back pressure and creates NO adverse affects on engine performance. He did say that it would significantly help to quite the noise level in the cockpit, and keep the belly of the aircraft cleaner. Deems Davis # 406 Fuse/Finishing/Panel http://deemsrv10.com/ Tim Olson wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > Dean, > > I didn't ask about any bends or curves, but the bends Michael was > talking about are barely bends at all, just a slight downturn > at the end. I really doubt that anyone would be able to get > too wild with the little ends of the exhaust in a way that would > cause big problems. My goal is to see if these extensions, > that should add about 3" of length, actually do anything. I'll > treat them as temporary. If they do anything amazing, I know I > can buy totally new, one piece tailpipes for $100 or less, so > that's what I'd ultimately do. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > do not archive > > > ddddsp1@juno.com wrote: > >> Tim, >> >> That will be a good test on your plane since you already have several >> hours of data to compare it too. Did you ask Larry about putting any >> bends or curves in the pipe? Just adding length probably would not >> increase exhaust back pressure much but I would think if people got >> carried away with putting major bends in the pipes it would change >> the dynamics. HOWEVER, as the builder we can do whatever we >> want.........build on. >> Dean 40449 > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:52 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV10-List: Official RV10-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) --> RV10-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Please read over the RV10-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete RV10-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV10-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains RV10-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. 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The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the RV10-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * RV10-List.FAQ - Latest version of the RV10-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * RV10-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * RV10-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * RV10-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the RV10-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * RV10-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the RV10-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the RV10-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?RV10 ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** RV10-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV10-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the RV10-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. RV10-List Policy Statement The purpose of the RV10-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] ________________________________ Message 65 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:01 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV10-List: Official RV10-List Usage Guidelines --> RV10-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Please read over the RV10-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete RV10-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV10-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** RV10-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV10-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the RV10-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. RV10-List Policy Statement The purpose of the RV10-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.]