Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:05 AM - IO-540 Engine Mounting Ears (Russell Daves)
2. 05:39 AM - Re: N585MR Signed Off (Wayne Edgerton)
3. 05:49 AM - First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit (tomhanaway)
4. 06:21 AM - Re: First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit (Tim Olson)
5. 06:49 AM - Re: First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit (John Jessen)
6. 10:20 AM - Re: First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit (tomhanaway)
7. 10:20 AM - Re: First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit (gary)
8. 12:14 PM - Looking for hangar storage during my travel (Rob Kermanj)
9. 02:52 PM - loading the roof (Evan and Megan Johnson)
10. 03:41 PM - Re: Van's Manifold pressure kit (Jesse Saint)
11. 05:28 PM - Re: First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit (Pascal)
12. 06:16 PM - Builder Assist Confusion (John W. Cox)
13. 06:41 PM - Riveting forward side skins? (John Hasbrouck)
14. 09:12 PM - Re: loading the roof (Deems Davis)
15. 09:19 PM - Re: loading the roof (Pascal)
16. 09:20 PM - Re: Riveting forward side skins? (Deems Davis)
17. 10:01 PM - Clocking AN Blue Fittings (McGANN, Ron)
Message 1
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| Subject: | IO-540 Engine Mounting Ears |
I have a set of 4 IO-540 mounting ears, part number 70456 for the RV-10
IO-540 engine mount if anybody needs a set.
Russ Daves
N710RV - RV-10 Flying
do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: N585MR Signed Off |
Congratulations Marcus on your great accomplishment. It has to feel
great to be through that stage. I know I'll be glad when I'm where you
are today.
I wish you much luck on your first flight and the many more that will
follow it.
Wayne Edgerton
#40336
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "tomhanaway" <tomhanaway@adelphia.net>
Hi all,
I'm one of those lurkers that's been thinking about this for three years and am
ready to pull the trigger. I apologize if this has been answered before but
my search didn't turn up an answer.
Recent discussion of the 51% rule has raised some concerns. I don't pretend to
understand the politics behind it but I read the primary direction as towards
commercial/multi-unit builders.
My question is (and perhaps I should mail a letter to Van's also) is:
If I build a RV-10 as follows, will I have stayed within the 51% homebuilt rule?
1 Empennage- build at Alexander Tech Center to learn skills (my work under supervision
and guidance).
2. Wings and fuselage-quick build kit by myself
3. engine and avionics-installed myself
4. cabin/seat upholstery-outsourced (if necessary, I could do this but it doesn't
excite me).
5. painting-outsourced (I definitely don't have the skills or resources for this).
My intent is to build this for myself. Pleasure of building probably greater than
pleasure of flying. Will not be selling plane in any sort of foreseeable future.
Is the consensus that I'm in the clear on this or am I treading dangerously close
to not meeting the 51% rule? Any suggestions for pursuing a definitive answer
prior to ordering stages of kit?
Thanks in advance,
Tom Hanaway
Boynton Beach, FL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54522#54522
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I don't see this as a problem for you at all. Any true, legitimate
builder assist like Alexander Tech Center shouldn't be in violation, and
the fact that you're personally there doing the work is what matters.
I think Van's has official approval of the QB wings and fuse under the
51% rule. You can check, but I think this will pass. There's a lot
left undone.
Interior, Panel, and Paint don't even count towards the requirements
at least by the rules that I've heard of...unless something major
just changed. So those won't be any problem. I can't remember if
the engine does or doesn't, but you definitely aren't required to
assemble the engine yourself, and considering you're going to install
it yourself, you're fine there too.
So what you're considering seems to be fine. Unless something
drastic changes, I can't see how you'd have any problem.
Tim
do not achive
tomhanaway wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "tomhanaway"
> <tomhanaway@adelphia.net>
>
> Hi all, I'm one of those lurkers that's been thinking about this for
> three years and am ready to pull the trigger. I apologize if this
> has been answered before but my search didn't turn up an answer.
> Recent discussion of the 51% rule has raised some concerns. I don't
> pretend to understand the politics behind it but I read the primary
> direction as towards commercial/multi-unit builders.
>
> My question is (and perhaps I should mail a letter to Van's also) is:
>
>
> If I build a RV-10 as follows, will I have stayed within the 51%
> homebuilt rule? 1 Empennage- build at Alexander Tech Center to learn
> skills (my work under supervision and guidance). 2. Wings and
> fuselage-quick build kit by myself 3. engine and avionics-installed
> myself 4. cabin/seat upholstery-outsourced (if necessary, I could do
> this but it doesn't excite me). 5. painting-outsourced (I definitely
> don't have the skills or resources for this).
>
> My intent is to build this for myself. Pleasure of building probably
> greater than pleasure of flying. Will not be selling plane in any
> sort of foreseeable future.
>
> Is the consensus that I'm in the clear on this or am I treading
> dangerously close to not meeting the 51% rule? Any suggestions for
> pursuing a definitive answer prior to ordering stages of kit?
>
> Thanks in advance, Tom Hanaway Boynton Beach, FL
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
Tom,
As I understand it, but I'm not an authority on the topic, Van's is within
the 51% rule, even if you were to buy all quick build components. The
paint, upholstery, fire wall forward (engine, etc) and building the panel
are not counted in the 51% rule. So, as you described what you're up to,
the only question would be Alexander's. I would check with both Van's and
Alexander's. I would think that the latter would have taken this into
account when setting up their program. If it's supervision only, then go
have fun! My guess is you'll be fine.
John Jessen
#40328
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tomhanaway
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 5:48 AM
Subject: RV10-List: First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit
--> RV10-List message posted by: "tomhanaway" <tomhanaway@adelphia.net>
Hi all,
Recent discussion of the 51% rule has raised some concerns. I don't pretend
to understand the politics behind it but I read the primary direction as
towards commercial/multi-unit builders.
My question is (and perhaps I should mail a letter to Van's also) is:
If I build a RV-10 as follows, will I have stayed within the 51% homebuilt
rule?
1 Empennage- build at Alexander Tech Center to learn skills (my work under
supervision and guidance).
2. Wings and fuselage-quick build kit by myself 3. engine and
avionics-installed myself 4. cabin/seat upholstery-outsourced (if necessary,
I could do this but it doesn't excite me).
5. painting-outsourced (I definitely don't have the skills or resources for
this).
My intent is to build this for myself. Pleasure of building probably greater
than pleasure of flying. Will not be selling plane in any sort of
foreseeable future.
Is the consensus that I'm in the clear on this or am I treading dangerously
close to not meeting the 51% rule? Any suggestions for pursuing a
definitive answer prior to ordering stages of kit?
Thanks in advance,
Tom Hanaway
Boynton Beach, FL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54522#54522
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "tomhanaway" <tomhanaway@adelphia.net>
Thanks for the feedback. Alexander's confirms by telephone and on the website that
they meet/observe the 51% standard. Nice to hear that painting and interior
upholstery aren't part of the standard.
Tom H.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54566#54566
Message 7
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| Subject: | First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "gary" <speckter@comcast.net>
You are definitely in compliance. Not even close. Have fun and go for i.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tomhanaway
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 7:48 AM
Subject: RV10-List: First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit
--> RV10-List message posted by: "tomhanaway" <tomhanaway@adelphia.net>
Hi all,
I'm one of those lurkers that's been thinking about this for three years and
am ready to pull the trigger. I apologize if this has been answered before
but my search didn't turn up an answer.
Recent discussion of the 51% rule has raised some concerns. I don't pretend
to understand the politics behind it but I read the primary direction as
towards commercial/multi-unit builders.
My question is (and perhaps I should mail a letter to Van's also) is:
If I build a RV-10 as follows, will I have stayed within the 51% homebuilt
rule?
1 Empennage- build at Alexander Tech Center to learn skills (my work under
supervision and guidance).
2. Wings and fuselage-quick build kit by myself
3. engine and avionics-installed myself
4. cabin/seat upholstery-outsourced (if necessary, I could do this but it
doesn't excite me).
5. painting-outsourced (I definitely don't have the skills or resources for
this).
My intent is to build this for myself. Pleasure of building probably greater
than pleasure of flying. Will not be selling plane in any sort of
foreseeable future.
Is the consensus that I'm in the clear on this or am I treading dangerously
close to not meeting the 51% rule? Any suggestions for pursuing a
definitive answer prior to ordering stages of kit?
Thanks in advance,
Tom Hanaway
Boynton Beach, FL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54522#54522
Message 8
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| Subject: | Looking for hangar storage during my travel |
I am looking to store my RV10 on my travel from Florida to California
and New Mexico during the next three next weeks. I would appreciate
anyone having extra room to accommodate my plane in Ruidoso, NM,
Flabob airport, CA (near Pasadena) and Sacramento, CA. I do not know
if finding overnight hangars will be an issue, especially in CA. I
certainly don't mind paying for the space.
Do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | loading the roof |
OK guys...I've run into a problem. I finally committed to doing the
fiberglass roof and the D*@&! thing does not seem to fit. The door
openings in the aluminum fuselage are just a bit narrow (about 3/16"
tight). I have sanded the glass down to about 3/16" thick at the door
jams and it is still an extremely tight fit. I think if I really force
it I can get it in there but I will likely fracture the door frame. That
frame is going to get mighty flimsy if I keep cutting....I have already
exposed the glass laminations and intend to put new epoxy in. Any
suggestions?
Evan Johnson
www.evansaviationproducts.com
(530)247-0375
(530)351-1776 cell
Message 10
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| Subject: | Van's Manifold pressure kit |
We just used the small tubing, then stuck that into a plastic tube into a
larger tube like the pitot line, and that into a tube that fit into the MAP
sensor. We held them together with silicone.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
HYPERLINK "mailto:jesse@itecusa.org"jesse@itecusa.org
HYPERLINK "http://www.itecusa.org"www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:27 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Van's Manifold pressure kit
Anybody bought that kit? besides the hose what else is in it? I am using the
GRT EIS as the engine monitor and the tube to their MAP transducer is about
.125" ID. I have not been able to find a connector between the AN807
bulkhead adaptor which is set up for .25" ID.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
--
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Pascal" <pascalreid@verizon.net>
> the only question would be Alexander's.
Builder assistance is certainly within the rule- Alexander's qualify as
Builder asssitance since the builder isn't assisting them but actually is
the builder getting the assistance.
Lancair does this for months for their builders (and significantly more
expensive at that too!)
Tom;
Best of success with this building- you are more than fine.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 6:47 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
>
> Tom,
>
> As I understand it, but I'm not an authority on the topic, Van's is within
> the 51% rule, even if you were to buy all quick build components. The
> paint, upholstery, fire wall forward (engine, etc) and building the panel
> are not counted in the 51% rule. So, as you described what you're up to,
> the only question would be Alexander's. I would check with both Van's and
> Alexander's. I would think that the latter would have taken this into
> account when setting up their program. If it's supervision only, then go
> have fun! My guess is you'll be fine.
>
> John Jessen
> #40328
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tomhanaway
> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 5:48 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: First post-51% rule-private build w/ QB kit
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "tomhanaway" <tomhanaway@adelphia.net>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Recent discussion of the 51% rule has raised some concerns. I don't
> pretend
> to understand the politics behind it but I read the primary direction as
> towards commercial/multi-unit builders.
>
> My question is (and perhaps I should mail a letter to Van's also) is:
>
> If I build a RV-10 as follows, will I have stayed within the 51% homebuilt
> rule?
> 1 Empennage- build at Alexander Tech Center to learn skills (my work under
> supervision and guidance).
> 2. Wings and fuselage-quick build kit by myself 3. engine and
> avionics-installed myself 4. cabin/seat upholstery-outsourced (if
> necessary,
> I could do this but it doesn't excite me).
> 5. painting-outsourced (I definitely don't have the skills or resources
> for
> this).
>
> My intent is to build this for myself. Pleasure of building probably
> greater
> than pleasure of flying. Will not be selling plane in any sort of
> foreseeable future.
>
> Is the consensus that I'm in the clear on this or am I treading
> dangerously
> close to not meeting the 51% rule? Any suggestions for pursuing a
> definitive answer prior to ordering stages of kit?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Tom Hanaway
> Boynton Beach, FL
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54522#54522
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Builder Assist Confusion |
It is painfully amusing how many builders (and proposed builders) of
Kitplanes do not clearly grasp the 51% concept. This concept is likely
to change in September but no later than January when the Task Force
makes recommendations on this very dated process. Every builder should
know that contracting for services for engine work, firewall forward,
electrical wiring, exterior topcoat paint, interior fabrication and
component installation, instrument and avionics selection and
installation are exempt from the 51% rule evaluation.
"Fast-Build" is a relative new concept involving a third party
fabricating and assembling repetitive tasks to reduce the monotony and
repetition of tasks the builder has already or will soon be able to
demonstrate. The manufacturers of kit-build aircraft who subscribe to
this practice are careful to receive FAA approval that this process
continues to protect the validation of the Amateur Builder. Often this
can be accomplished by Third Party - Foreign Nationals of the Czech
Republic/Philippines/Ecuador and other countries. On this process, the
builder converts their money for time saved. The Fast (Quick) builder
does not take away the builders ability to accomplish the required 51%
tasks.
"Factory Assist Build" is a process used by Lancair to enhance and
expedite the builder's construction process. The Builder pays as much
as $4,000 per week to use factory personnel, factory materials and
factory tooling at the factory to increase the quality, safety and
compliance with the 51% rule. In the case of Lancair, you can actually
acquire 28 weeks (Yes, that's $112,000 ) and have a ready to fly kit.
Many builders have availed themselves of this process. Again the 51%
rule is respected. Oh yeh, Epic uses this technique but the price has
more zeros .
Then there are the "FBNs - Fly By Night" builders who for a fee complete
the key steps in lieu of the builder completing said required work.
Numerous shops have been known to provide this non-compliant build
method. This process requires the builder to fraudulently state that
they and not the FBN completed the work. This is nearly always a
partnership in collusion between the two entities. Enter the DAR
(Designated Airworthiness Representative) who allows this process to
flourish over and over.
Finally there are the "BTS - Build To Finish" shops who intentionally
complete more than two, three or four of the identical kits with the
express interest in selling them to third parties for a financial
remuneration. Always implying that their learning curve is shallow and
they had to keep building the same model to get it Right.
Alexander's, Synergy and Aircrafters are "Builder Enhancement" shops
which ensure that the 51% rule is respected and the builder acquires the
needed education and skill to honestly file the accurate paperwork as to
the Builder of Record. The individuals who hire such shops come away
with improved skills, higher quality work (Less shoddy finish) and pride
in their accomplishment.
The complexity and flying speed of the Epic LT allowed a competitor
(from Florida who felt threatened) to file a merit less grievance with
the FAA last July which opened this can of worms. The issue was that
many FBNs and BTS are willfully skirting the ole rules for profit. Rick
Schrameck got his Epic approved, builders are happy, life is good. The
Task Force will now look at what are the appropriate tasks in this era
of EFIS, Plastic Aircraft and 1250 Shaft horsepower Turbo-props and kit
jets which fly above FL240. With the bathwater will go the issue of
those damned profit venues. The RV-10 is a remarkable four passenger
cruiser which can be built solely by the passion of a single builder in
as small as a single car garage. It can be built anywhere on this
planet. It can be built for much less without the use of contracted
services. It can be built to Showmanship quality without contracted
services. No one has proposed interfering with a builders ability to
sell is one of a kind Gee Whiz to a third party which was built
compliant to the 51% rule. It will just require use of a trained
professional to complete the annual inspection called a Conditional.
The masses on this list are hardworking, passionate, well meaning
builders who share their experiences for the common good and are not
trying in any way to skirt the intent of this 51% rule. For the others,
I say shame on you and may your efforts go justly rewarded in this
lifetime. ... Back to Banging Rivets and laying up six BID composite.
John Cox
Do not Archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Riveting forward side skins? |
I've searched the archives with no luck for the answer. How do you buck
the three rivets associated with the 1042B clip in the aft end of the
lower fuse channel? Looks like I'll need something narrower than what I
have to get in there. Suggestions would be appreciated. Did you use
the modified elevator bucking bar in the channels for the rest of those
rivets? Thanks
John Hasbrouck
#40264
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: loading the roof |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Evan,
I just checked my canopy/cover/roof, and I'm down to close to 1/8"
fiberglass thickness at the door jams, where the canopy fits between,
the aluminum uprights. I believe that other builders have also reported
that they also had to take off may more than they expected and more than
indicated in the plans. I don't think that what you're describing is a
significant problem.
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/Finish/Panel
http://deemsrv10.com/
Evan and Megan Johnson wrote:
> OK guys...I've run into a problem. I finally committed to doing the
> fiberglass roof and the D*@&! thing does not seem to fit. The door
> openings in the aluminum fuselage are just a bit narrow (about 3/16"
> tight). I have sanded the glass down to about 3/16" thick at the door
> jams and it is still an extremely tight fit. I think if I really force
> it I can get it in there but I will likely fracture the door frame.
> That frame is going to get mighty flimsy if I keep cutting....I have
> already exposed the glass laminations and intend to put new epoxy in.
> Any suggestions?
> Evan Johnson
> www.evansaviationproducts.com <http://www.evansaviationproducts.com>
> (530)247-0375
> (530)351-1776 cell
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: loading the roof |
whenever in doubt check out Tim's website. Not sure this is what you're
looking for but there is door trimming
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050706/index.html
and the next page has fitting doors
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/fuselage/20050710/index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Evan and Megan Johnson
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 2:53 PM
Subject: RV10-List: loading the roof
OK guys...I've run into a problem. I finally committed to doing the
fiberglass roof and the D*@&! thing does not seem to fit. The door
openings in the aluminum fuselage are just a bit narrow (about 3/16"
tight). I have sanded the glass down to about 3/16" thick at the door
jams and it is still an extremely tight fit. I think if I really force
it I can get it in there but I will likely fracture the door frame. That
frame is going to get mighty flimsy if I keep cutting....I have already
exposed the glass laminations and intend to put new epoxy in. Any
suggestions?
Evan Johnson
www.evansaviationproducts.com
(530)247-0375
(530)351-1776 cell
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting forward side skins? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
John, I had the same question when I got to this point. I ended up
modifying the elevator bucking bar (link to pic attached)
http://deemsrv10.com/album/Sec%2029%20Fuse%20Side%20Skins/slides/DSC02624.html
I puzzled over how to cut the bar, but used a high speed electric
grinder with a metal cut-off wheel, went pretty quickly, Filed it
smooth,and dressed it with the scotchbrite.
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/Finish/Panel
http://deemsrv10.com/
John Hasbrouck wrote:
> I've searched the archives with no luck for the answer. How do you
> buck the three rivets associated with the 1042B clip in the aft end of
> the lower fuse channel? Looks like I'll need something narrower than
> what I have to get in there. Suggestions would be appreciated. Did
> you use the modified elevator bucking bar in the channels for the rest
> of those rivets? Thanks
> John Hasbrouck
> #40264
Message 17
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| Subject: | Clocking AN Blue Fittings |
G'day all
A number of sections require AN fluid fittings (eg elbows) to be
installed (clocked) at a particular angle (eg the fuel line connections
at the fuel valve). When the AN fitting is installed, it naturally
'bottoms out' into the part (eg fuel valve) and has a natural clocked
position when it is tight.
To achieve a particular clocking, the fitting can't always be 'bottomed
out' and hence tight. How do you achieve both correct clocking and a
fit tight enough to prevent leaks? Does fuel lube etc provide a useful
seal??
cheers,
Ron
#187 finishing
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