---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/19/06: 33 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:17 AM - Re: Lycoming Thunderbolt Factory FFW "Kit" for RV-10 (James Hein) 2. 03:44 AM - Re: Lycoming Thunderbolt Factory FFW "Kit" for RV-10 (David Maib) 3. 03:51 AM - Re: LED Nav Lights (Russell Daves) 4. 05:26 AM - Re: Will James cowl plug for RV-10 (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 5. 07:38 AM - Re: HS-1008L/R Brackets (johngoodman) 6. 11:20 AM - Re: Number of 10 tails? (Albert Gardner) 7. 11:26 AM - Re: Will James cowl plug for RV-10 (John Hasbrouck) 8. 11:42 AM - Re: Number of 10 tails? (John Jessen) 9. 12:13 PM - Re: Number of 10 tails? (Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX) 10. 12:39 PM - Re: Number of 10 tails? (John Jessen) 11. 01:30 PM - Re: Number of 10 tails? (Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX) 12. 02:55 PM - Can't get through except by replying. (Jesse Saint) 13. 04:34 PM - Re: Can't get through except by replying. (John Hasbrouck) 14. 05:12 PM - Cylinder head temps (Bill DeRouchey) 15. 05:28 PM - Re: Number of 10 tails? () 16. 05:48 PM - Re: Cylinder head temps (Mark Ritter) 17. 05:58 PM - Re: Cylinder head temps (linn Walters) 18. 06:05 PM - Re: Cylinder head temps (Marcus Cooper) 19. 06:14 PM - Re: Lycoming Thunderbolt Factory FFW "Kit" for RV-10 (EFDsteve@aol.com) 20. 06:17 PM - Re: Number of 10 tails? (Rob Wright) 21. 06:21 PM - Re: Cylinder head temps (John W. Cox) 22. 06:33 PM - Re: Number of 10 tails? () 23. 06:37 PM - Re: Cylinder head temps () 24. 07:01 PM - Re: Cylinder head temps (JSMcGrew@aol.com) 25. 07:13 PM - Re: Cylinder head temps (linn Walters) 26. 07:23 PM - Re: Cylinder head temps (Rob Wright) 27. 07:31 PM - Re: Cylinder head temps (John W. Cox) 28. 07:41 PM - Re: Cylinder head temps (John W. Cox) 29. 07:50 PM - Re: Cylinder head temps (John W. Cox) 30. 07:57 PM - Re: Cylinder head temps (John Dunne) 31. 08:40 PM - I'm back (tdtpilot@aim.com) 32. 09:57 PM - Re: I'm back (Sean Stephens) 33. 11:01 PM - Tru Trak Pitch Servo (John Dunne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:17:45 AM PST US From: James Hein Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Thunderbolt Factory FFW "Kit" for RV-10 --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein How about a price less than that of the complete airframe? -Jim 40384 Eric Parlow wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Eric Parlow" > > I am working with the Lycoming Thunderbolt Experimental Engine Shop to > develop an engine and a firewall forward "Kit" for the RV-10. > > They are interested in what the RV-10 builders would want in this "Kit". > > Some options are: > IO-540 parallel valve @ 260 to 300+ bhp > IO-580 angle valve @ 315 to 340+ bhp > TIO-540 parallel valve @ 260 to 300+ bhp > TIO-360 angle valve @ 230 to 260 bhp > or......? > They have all the production Lycoming parts to mix and match plus any > after market parts. > They are also working with Sam James on a Cowl & Cooling Plenum to fit > the engine of choice. > What else would you like to see in a factory supplied "Kit"? > Prop, Cooler, Hoses, Mounts, Filter, Sensors, Engine Monitor, > Electronic Ign and/or FI, etc..... > > ERic-- > 40014 > FFW > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:44:55 AM PST US From: David Maib Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Thunderbolt Factory FFW "Kit" for RV-10 --> RV10-List message posted by: David Maib I would pretty much want the whole "soup to nuts" FF kit similar to Van's with the IO-540 parallel valve setup. Would be interested in seeing the TIO-360 setup as well. Sam James cowl and plenum would be a big plus! David Maib 40559 On Sep 18, 2006, at 10:12 PM, Eric Parlow wrote: --> RV10-List message posted by: "Eric Parlow" I am working with the Lycoming Thunderbolt Experimental Engine Shop to develop an engine and a firewall forward "Kit" for the RV-10. They are interested in what the RV-10 builders would want in this "Kit". Some options are: IO-540 parallel valve @ 260 to 300+ bhp IO-580 angle valve @ 315 to 340+ bhp TIO-540 parallel valve @ 260 to 300+ bhp TIO-360 angle valve @ 230 to 260 bhp or......? They have all the production Lycoming parts to mix and match plus any after market parts. They are also working with Sam James on a Cowl & Cooling Plenum to fit the engine of choice. What else would you like to see in a factory supplied "Kit"? Prop, Cooler, Hoses, Mounts, Filter, Sensors, Engine Monitor, Electronic Ign and/or FI, etc..... ERic-- 40014 FFW ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:24 AM PST US From: "Russell Daves" Subject: Re: RV10-List: LED Nav Lights I have LED/Strobes with Van's landing light kit on N710RV (flying). I am not very good at posting pictures to Matronics but if you want a couple contact me direct at dav1111 at cox.net. Best regards, Russ Daves ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Wright To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 7:28 PM Subject: RV10-List: LED Nav Lights Anyone install the CreativAir LED/Strobe combo lights? I'm installing both the LED/Strobe combo as well as the Van's Ldg Light kit, so looking for ideas on how to fit it all in there. Rob Wright #392 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:39 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Will James cowl plug for RV-10 From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" --> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" One thing to note is Will mentioned in the original email that he still had to do some fairing work but it is definitely looking good. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Building on hold Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 7:54 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Will James cowl plug for RV-10 --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Will has hit a home run with this latest variant. Early pics showed he had missed the LoPresti philosophy of location of induction near the prop arch in a geometric plane. He has corrected that early variant. I give now give him a 93 score of 100. Before, I was ranking it at a 75. Maybe his lay-up is even better than the factory offering. The ballistic/atheistic style of the spinner, the aerodynamic detail (NACA)of the lower cowl, the circular (non rectangular) upper inlets for upper deck differential pressure capture, the side angled design of the induction inlet for High Alpha climb profile are winners (IMHO). It looks faster just sitting in storage. With Monty's Engine Magic, John's Tuned exhaust design, Scott's ceramic tube coating idea and forward facing BPE Cold Air, this is going to be a winner and a head turner on future production RV-10s. Now to just lay in batts of Zetex thermal insulation to protect the matrix and some of the latent cooling issues will reduce to a distant memory. With a redesigned mount for proper airflow through the oil cooler and this could be perfection in function. If he could only lay-up carbon fiber to reduce weight further and a lower NACA duct for alternate air, I think I would be in ecstasy tonight. Now, could I just dream that it could also handle a TSIO-550 or AEIO-580???? ;) The Rocket owners are loosing their grip on the pedestal position. Better hold on tight. "Are we there yet?" John Cox Do not Archive - and thanks for the posting to the picture source. The download is worth the time. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 5:10 PM Subject: RV10-List: Will James cowl plug for RV-10 --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis I just received several pics of the cowl plug that Will has been working on for the RV-10 w/ BPE cold air induction, There are too many pics to include in this post and in deferrance to those wth dial-up. So I'm posting them at my web site http://deemsrv10.com/ go to the photo albums and then look for the Will James Cowl folder. (They are being published as I type this). Deems Davis # 406 Fuse/Panel/Finishing http://deemsrv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:49 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: HS-1008L/R Brackets From: "johngoodman" --> RV10-List message posted by: "johngoodman" wv4i(at)bellsouth.net wrote: > Take care to note that dimensions on these angled aluminum parts go from > 1.5" on the long side end to 1.5" at angle to 1 21/32" at short side > end. Also, note that the flare is only on one side of short angle side, > not both. Not a big deal if caught early. Note that Air Parts has more > AA6-187-3x3, as well as Van's, hi..... > > Link McGarity > #40622 > > Thanks to Deems Davis' site for great pics of these parts (images 1,4,5): > > http://www.deemsrv10.com/album/CNC%20Parts/index.html Luckily, Van's provides enough AA6... to make one more (g). John -------- #40572 Empennage N711JG reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=62514#62514 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:20:01 AM PST US From: "Albert Gardner" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? The Oregon Aero seats in my finish kit had s/n 314. Do you suppose that corresponds in any way to the number of finish kits delivered? Albert Gardner Yuma, AZ 40-422 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:26:12 AM PST US From: "John Hasbrouck" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Will James cowl plug for RV-10 --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Hasbrouck" Guys, this is off topic but it is the only way I can get through to the list. I've been unable to post directly to the list and e-mails to the webmaster have gone unanswered. The only way to get through is by replying to previous posts. Any one with suggestions for correcting this problem? BTW: the James cowl is awesome! John Hasbrouck #40264 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:42:30 AM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? That would be great if there were that many coming on line... _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert Gardner Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 11:19 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? The Oregon Aero seats in my finish kit had s/n 314. Do you suppose that corresponds in any way to the number of finish kits delivered? Albert Gardner Yuma, AZ 40-422 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:13:16 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? From: "Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX" John, I ordered my empacone on the 12th and ABF says it will here on Thursday. Don't have have a clue as to what my kit number is though. Is it listed somewhere? Todd -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Jessen Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 2:42 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? That would be great if there were that many coming on line... _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert Gardner Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 11:19 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? The Oregon Aero seats in my finish kit had s/n 314. Do you suppose that corresponds in any way to the number of finish kits delivered? Albert Gardner Yuma, AZ 40-422 s.com/Navigator?RV10-List ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:51 PM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? It's your builder number on your receipt do not archive _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 12:13 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? John, I ordered my empacone on the 12th and ABF says it will here on Thursday. Don't have have a clue as to what my kit number is though. Is it listed somewhere? Todd -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Jessen Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 2:42 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? That would be great if there were that many coming on line... _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert Gardner Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 11:19 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? The Oregon Aero seats in my finish kit had s/n 314. Do you suppose that corresponds in any way to the number of finish kits delivered? Albert Gardner Yuma, AZ 40-422 s.com/Navigator?RV10-List s.com/Navigator?RV10-List ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:24 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? From: "Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX" OK. My builder number is 40631. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: RE: Number of 10 tails? From: John Jessen ( jjessen@rcn.com) Date: Tue Sep 19 - 12:39 PM It's your builder number on your receipt do not archive _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 12:13 PM Subject: RE: Number of 10 tails? John, I ordered my empacone on the 12th and ABF says it will here on Thursday. Don't have have a clue as to what my kit number is though. Is it listed somewhere? Todd ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:25 PM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RV10-List: Can't get through except by replying. --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" Do you have more than one active e-mail address in your e-mail program? If so, and the one you signed up on is not your default, but you are setup to reply using the account that it was received on, that could make a difference. I have about 8 addresses that I use through Outlook, and I have seen that problem before. Do not archive. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hasbrouck Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 2:26 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Will James cowl plug for RV-10 --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Hasbrouck" Guys, this is off topic but it is the only way I can get through to the list. I've been unable to post directly to the list and e-mails to the webmaster have gone unanswered. The only way to get through is by replying to previous posts. Any one with suggestions for correcting this problem? BTW: the James cowl is awesome! John Hasbrouck #40264 -- -- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:25 PM PST US From: "John Hasbrouck" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Can't get through except by replying. --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Hasbrouck" Jesse, Nope. Same e-mail address for last five years and no others ( boring ). Can't get through to Matt either. Can't figure it out. Correct address for matronics in address book, it's worked many times before. John Hasbrouck ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:54 PM PST US From: Bill DeRouchey Subject: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps I have 31 hours on my IO-540 and the oil consumption is very low. Engine monitor is an EIS 6000 and I have set the cylinder head temp limit to 435F. Problem is the #1 cylinder is 30F degrees hotter than all the others and will quickly reach its limit on an 80 degree ambient day climbing at 120mph, 25"/2600 rpm. Pushing the nose down to 140mph and backing off the power will of course help. But, its still quite a dance to just keep the temps from increasing and the aircraft climbing. The #1 cylinder is always the hottest and the #3 the coldest. From this I assume the front dam needs to be trimmed down. I talked to another pilot at Vans Homecoming and the highest CHT he has seen is 360. His high EGT's were also in the low 1300, whereas I am seeing EGT's of 1525. Cowling inlet and outlet are purely stock. I do not have the hot tunnel problem. Climbing at full rich or leaned conservately (~1250 EGT) does not seem to make much difference. What is the experience of others flying? Is the temp distribution such that the #1 is hottest and #3 coolest? Looking at my CHT & EGT is my engine monitor out of calibration? Is watching the CHT's during climb a normal activity or never of interest? Would appreciate your experiences, Bill DeRouchey billderou@yahoo.com flying fast, climbing slow ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:52 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? Now Todd, aka Lt. Col. Stoval, RV-O.E.R. # 1 Task #1 : Identify builder number. Result: Marginal For a a perfect score you should have eliminated the "OK" from your response. This was just many of more tests to come, you just barely passed this one. Now as senior leadership, all of us retired USAF guys and other vets are gonna make you tow the line. Don't screw up and let us down!! ;) Your in good company, welcome aboard (oops Navy term) And hey, if RV's are good enough for a retired Chief of Staff...they are good enough for all of us right!!! Rick S. 40185 Just a pulling wires do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 1:29 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? OK. My builder number is 40631. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: RE: Number of 10 tails? From: John Jessen (jjessen@rcn.com) Date: Tue Sep 19 - 12:39 PM It's your builder number on your receipt do not archive _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 12:13 PM Subject: RE: Number of 10 tails? John, I ordered my empacone on the 12th and ABF says it will here on Thursday. Don't have have a clue as to what my kit number is though. Is it listed somewhere? Todd ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:02 PM PST US From: "Mark Ritter" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps --> RV10-List message posted by: "Mark Ritter" Bill, The CHT on cyl. #1 and #2 were running in the 415 - 420 degree range with the other cyl running under 400 degrees. I took the air dams off and the CHT on 1 and 2 are now in line with cyl 3, 4 ,5 and 6 at approx 365 - 375 degrees. I had a high EGT on a couple of cyl but after cleaning the injectors its no longer a problem. EGT's are running well below 1400 so I'm happy. I believe Lycoming recommends keeping the CHT under 400 and the EGT under 1400. I have right at 30 hours on my IO-540 also with very low oil consumption. Oil sample analysis looked good at 25 hour oil change. Mark >From: Bill DeRouchey >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps >Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:11:14 -0700 (PDT) > >I have 31 hours on my IO-540 and the oil consumption is very low. Engine >monitor is an EIS 6000 and I have set the cylinder head temp limit to 435F. >Problem is the #1 cylinder is 30F degrees hotter than all the others and >will quickly reach its limit on an 80 degree ambient day climbing at >120mph, 25"/2600 rpm. Pushing the nose down to 140mph and backing off the >power will of course help. But, its still quite a dance to just keep the >temps from increasing and the aircraft climbing. > > The #1 cylinder is always the hottest and the #3 the coldest. From this >I assume the front dam needs to be trimmed down. I talked to another pilot >at Vans Homecoming and the highest CHT he has seen is 360. His high EGT's >were also in the low 1300, whereas I am seeing EGT's of 1525. > > Cowling inlet and outlet are purely stock. I do not have the hot tunnel >problem. Climbing at full rich or leaned conservately (~1250 EGT) does not >seem to make much difference. > > What is the experience of others flying? Is the temp distribution such >that the #1 is hottest and #3 coolest? Looking at my CHT & EGT is my engine >monitor out of calibration? Is watching the CHT's during climb a normal >activity or never of interest? > > Would appreciate your experiences, > Bill DeRouchey > billderou@yahoo.com > flying fast, climbing slow > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:48 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps Bill, put a light in the lower cowl and look down through the head fins near the spark plug. There may be mold flashing blocking the airflow. A round jewelers file or even a long drill will clean it up. Hope this helps. I know some smaller lycs have this problem but don't know if it shows up on the 540s. Linn do not archive Bill DeRouchey wrote: > I have 31 hours on my IO-540 and the oil consumption is very low. > Engine monitor is an EIS 6000 and I have set the cylinder head temp > limit to 435F. Problem is the #1 cylinder is 30F degrees hotter than > all the others and will quickly reach its limit on an 80 degree > ambient day climbing at 120mph, 25"/2600 rpm. Pushing the nose down to > 140mph and backing off the power will of course help. But, its still > quite a dance to just keep the temps from increasing and the aircraft > climbing. > > The #1 cylinder is always the hottest and the #3 the coldest. From > this I assume the front dam needs to be trimmed down. I talked to > another pilot at Vans Homecoming and the highest CHT he has seen is > 360. His high EGT's were also in the low 1300, whereas I am seeing > EGT's of 1525. > > Cowling inlet and outlet are purely stock. I do not have the hot > tunnel problem. Climbing at full rich or leaned conservately (~1250 > EGT) does not seem to make much difference. > > What is the experience of others flying? Is the temp distribution such > that the #1 is hottest and #3 coolest? Looking at my CHT & EGT is my > engine monitor out of calibration? Is watching the CHT's during climb > a normal activity or never of interest? > > Would appreciate your experiences, > Bill DeRouchey > billderou@yahoo.com > flying fast, climbing slow > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:06 PM PST US From: "Marcus Cooper" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps Bill, Before you start cutting, I recommend you swap the #1 and 3 CHT sensors. I have the exact same situation and found after switching the probes the #1 position on the monitor was still hot which means it's the sensor/monitor not the cylinder. I called GRT and it turns out they calibrate the monitor there and are sending me another monitor to test if I get the same readings. If I do, then the probe is probably off and there is no way to calibrate it and I'll get a new probe. Since we both have the same setup and are getting the same readings, I wonder if some monitors went out with bad calibration on the #1 CHT position. I'll update as soon as I get the new monitor regarding any changes. Marcus Do not archive _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 8:11 PM Subject: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps I have 31 hours on my IO-540 and the oil consumption is very low. Engine monitor is an EIS 6000 and I have set the cylinder head temp limit to 435F. Problem is the #1 cylinder is 30F degrees hotter than all the others and will quickly reach its limit on an 80 degree ambient day climbing at 120mph, 25"/2600 rpm. Pushing the nose down to 140mph and backing off the power will of course help. But, its still quite a dance to just keep the temps from increasing and the aircraft climbing. The #1 cylinder is always the hottest and the #3 the coldest. From this I assume the front dam needs to be trimmed down. I talked to another pilot at Vans Homecoming and the highest CHT he has seen is 360. His high EGT's were also in the low 1300, whereas I am seeing EGT's of 1525. Cowling inlet and outlet are purely stock. I do not have the hot tunnel problem. Climbing at full rich or leaned conservately (~1250 EGT) does not seem to make much difference. What is the experience of others flying? Is the temp distribution such that the #1 is hottest and #3 coolest? Looking at my CHT & EGT is my engine monitor out of calibration? Is watching the CHT's during climb a normal activity or never of interest? Would appreciate your experiences, Bill DeRouchey billderou@yahoo.com flying fast, climbing slow ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:21 PM PST US From: EFDsteve@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Lycoming Thunderbolt Factory FFW "Kit" for RV-10 Given the design limitation of a 260 hp engine for the RV-10, I don't really want to exceed that, so for my money, any new offering from Lycoming's Thunderbolt division would best offer: lighter weight better fuel consumption extended TBO FADEC easier starting less vibration lower cost Based on the description of the Thunderbolt division, my guess is that they're only interested in getting more hp out of the existing engines and won't be trying to achieve any of the above traits. Steve Weinstock 40230 do not archive --> RV10-List message posted by: David Maib I would pretty much want the whole "soup to nuts" FF kit similar to Van's with the IO-540 parallel valve setup. Would be interested in seeing the TIO-360 setup as well. Sam James cowl and plenum would be a big plus! David Maib 40559 On Sep 18, 2006, at 10:12 PM, Eric Parlow wrote: --> RV10-List message posted by: "Eric Parlow" I am working with the Lycoming Thunderbolt Experimental Engine Shop to develop an engine and a firewall forward "Kit" for the RV-10. They are interested in what the RV-10 builders would want in this "Kit". Some options are: IO-540 parallel valve @ 260 to 300+ bhp IO-580 angle valve @ 315 to 340+ bhp TIO-540 parallel valve @ 260 to 300+ bhp TIO-360 angle valve @ 230 to 260 bhp or......? They have all the production Lycoming parts to mix and match plus any after market parts. They are also working with Sam James on a Cowl & Cooling Plenum to fit the engine of choice. What else would you like to see in a factory supplied "Kit"? Prop, Cooler, Hoses, Mounts, Filter, Sensors, Engine Monitor, Electronic Ign and/or FI, etc..... ERic-- 40014 FFW ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:26 PM PST US From: "Rob Wright" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? Uh, oh. Be careful, or the grunts will have to chime in and say that it's "toe the line," not your "tow.." Towing the line might get heavy. Rob Wright #392 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ricksked@earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 7:29 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? Now Todd, aka Lt. Col. Stoval, RV-O.E.R. # 1 Task #1 : Identify builder number. Result: Marginal For a a perfect score you should have eliminated the "OK" from your response. This was just many of more tests to come, you just barely passed this one. Now as senior leadership, all of us retired USAF guys and other vets are gonna make you tow the line. Don't screw up and let us down!! ;) Your in good company, welcome aboard (oops Navy term) And hey, if RV's are good enough for a retired Chief of Staff...they are good enough for all of us right!!! Rick S. 40185 Just a pulling wires do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 1:29 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? OK. My builder number is 40631. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: RE: Number of 10 tails? From: John Jessen ( jjessen@rcn.com) Date: Tue Sep 19 - 12:39 PM It's your builder number on your receipt do not archive _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 12:13 PM Subject: RE: Number of 10 tails? John, I ordered my empacone on the 12th and ABF says it will here on Thursday. Don't have have a clue as to what my kit number is though. Is it listed somewhere? Todd s.com/Navigator?RV10-List ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:19 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps From: "John W. Cox" George Braly posted to the Lancair group just yesterday the controversial position on the importance of CHT limits of 430F. It was not about EGTs which are an indication of power output and which side of the F/A mixture you lean to. As Tim knows, I don't need to start another war on the detrimental effects of aluminum degradation at higher temperatures (Mine) and the advantage of convective cooling of aluminum cylinder heads in the time given during climbs. But here is a point to ponder between pounding rivets. One cylinder rests in the Lee (sheltered behind the front baffle) of the prevailing ram air flow. Another is safely in the middle with a balanced and reasonable flow on the top, the aft and the forward fins getting plenty of cooling. A Third is parked at the point of turbidity where builders think air will willingly make a violent high velocity 90 degree bend in direction without interruption of flow. That location also has an aluminum shield reflecting heat back onto it and defeating convective cooling. Hence, George's (GAMI and Cirrus Designs Zen like pursuit of effective flow) using modified baffles, gaskets and donuts. Airflow through a rectangular opening is not as effective in flow as a perfect circle. (that is contrary to factory design and opinion) "Just built it". A Bell curve design is great. The goal should be the reduction of turbidity, the manipulation and control of pressure, the application of cooler ram air for a longer period in contact with the target material to allow more convective transfer and longer component life. It is only a premise (Mine) that the factory stock cowl leaves a lot of points on the table for reduced aperture area in a High Alpha, prolonged climb. As turbidity is introduced, the higher pressure air flows backward (just like a fire hose in your mouth) and goes forward and escapes right back out the front nostrils rather than being caressed past all the waiting cooling fins - equitably. Your goal, is to move the sheltered cylinders into the flow path (oh yeh - they are fixed), reduce turbidity and manage the temperature and pressure differentials between the high and the low (the Upper and the Lower cowl). Add to it, the gymnastics of demanding rather than asking the ram ambient air to do a 90 degree course reversal and then flow down, then forward 45 degrees out of the oil cooler into the path (90 degrees) of the converging convective air flowing down through those fins and you might perceive the need to assist (Augment) with the use of more efficiently escaping of exhaust gases to help remove heated air and scavenge with lower pressure to improve cooling. Cool Fins, Cool Oil and keep Tunnels Cool. The Wholly Cowl is a big leap in the correct direction. (IMHO). George got 23 Lancair guys to invest an entire weekend in Ada, Oklahoma (last year) just to study for those two days this esoteric philosophy. George gave Cirrus the highest marks on temperature extraction from their Continental IO-550s. He makes quite a living improving Beechcraft. What can be done differently. In the high nose attitude, the ducts are (should be) installed to maximize flow during time of greatest cooling need (80 degrees ambient and slower forward air speeds). The entry ramp should be aerodynamically modified to reduce turbidity (Lopresti) and help the eldest child up front. The baffles are improved, the flow is directed and the back wall is caressingly coerced from aft travel to downward travel of the baby cylinder as well as cooperating with that perfectly well balanced (you can't do a thing for) middle child with the cool attitude in the middle. Anyone see Andy Chiavetta's carbon fiber ductwork for Darryl Greenmeyers screaming Legacy at Reno. Distribution +/- 10 degrees between cylinder readouts is the desire. Are your injectors and cylinders flow balanced (See Monty Barrett at BPE)? Are the probes confirmed as working correctly? Do you know the cost of doing a Top Overhaul if you were off and George is right about 430? This is about Experimentation. OOPs, I just fell off the soapbox... sorry John Cox Do not Archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 5:11 PM Subject: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps I have 31 hours on my IO-540 and the oil consumption is very low. Engine monitor is an EIS 6000 and I have set the cylinder head temp limit to 435F. Problem is the #1 cylinder is 30F degrees hotter than all the others and will quickly reach its limit on an 80 degree ambient day climbing at 120mph, 25"/2600 rpm. Pushing the nose down to 140mph and backing off the power will of course help. But, its still quite a dance to just keep the temps from increasing and the aircraft climbing. The #1 cylinder is always the hottest and the #3 the coldest. From this I assume the front dam needs to be trimmed down. I talked to another pilot at Vans Homecoming and the highest CHT he has seen is 360. His high EGT's were also in the low 1300, whereas I am seeing EGT's of 1525. Cowling inlet and outlet are purely stock. I do not have the hot tunnel problem. Climbing at full rich or leaned conservately (~1250 EGT) does not seem to make much difference. What is the experience of others flying? Is the temp distribution such that the #1 is hottest and #3 coolest? Looking at my CHT & EGT is my engine monitor out of calibration? Is watching the CHT's during climb a normal activity or never of interest? Would appreciate your experiences, Bill DeRouchey billderou@yahoo.com flying fast, climbing slow ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:52 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? LOL...I stand corrected....My appoligies to the Marines for my lack of Marine lingo. My bad! Darn spelling checker. Oh yeah sorry for miss spelling Stoval "L" Rick S. 40185 do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Wright To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 6:16 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? Uh, oh. Be careful, or the grunts will have to chime in and say that it's "toe the line," not your "tow.." Towing the line might get heavy. Rob Wright #392 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ricksked@earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 7:29 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? Now Todd, aka Lt. Col. Stoval, RV-O.E.R. # 1 Task #1 : Identify builder number. Result: Marginal For a a perfect score you should have eliminated the "OK" from your response. This was just many of more tests to come, you just barely passed this one. Now as senior leadership, all of us retired USAF guys and other vets are gonna make you tow the line. Don't screw up and let us down!! ;) Your in good company, welcome aboard (oops Navy term) And hey, if RV's are good enough for a retired Chief of Staff...they are good enough for all of us right!!! Rick S. 40185 Just a pulling wires do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 1:29 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Number of 10 tails? OK. My builder number is 40631. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: RE: Number of 10 tails? From: John Jessen (jjessen@rcn.com) Date: Tue Sep 19 - 12:39 PM It's your builder number on your receipt do not archive _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matron ics.com] On Behalf Of Stovall Todd LtCol AF/A4RXSent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 12:13 PMTo: rv10-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Number of 10 tails? John,I ordered my empacone on the 12th and ABF says it will here on Thursday.Don't have have a clue as to what my kit number is though. Is it listedsomewhere? Todd s.com/Navigator?RV10-List ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:01 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps John, what's "turbidity" I take you for a smart guy but sometimes I think you make words up. ;) (I looked it up FWIW) Rick S. 40185 do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: John W. Cox To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 6:20 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps George Braly posted to the Lancair group just yesterday the controversial position on the importance of CHT limits of 430F. It was not about EGTs which are an indication of power output and which side of the F/A mixture you lean to. As Tim knows, I don't need to start another war on the detrimental effects of aluminum degradation at higher temperatures (Mine) and the advantage of convective cooling of aluminum cylinder heads in the time given during climbs. But here is a point to ponder between pounding rivets. One cylinder rests in the Lee (sheltered behind the front baffle) of the prevailing ram air flow. Another is safely in the middle with a balanced and reasonable flow on the top, the aft and the forward fins getting plenty of cooling. A Third is parked at the point of turbidity where builders think air will willingly make a violent high velocity 90 degree bend in direction without interruption of flow. That location also has an aluminum shield reflecting heat back onto it and defeating convective cooling. Hence, George's (GAMI and Cirrus Designs Zen like pursuit of effective flow) using modified baffles, gaskets and donuts. Airflow through a rectangular opening is not as effective in flow as a perfect circle. (that is contrary to factory design and opinion) "Just built it". A Bell curve design is great. The goal should be the reduction of turbidity, the manipulation and control of pressure, the application of cooler ram air for a longer period in contact with the target material to allow more convective transfer and longer component life. It is only a premise (Mine) that the factory stock cowl leaves a lot of points on the table for reduced aperture area in a High Alpha, prolonged climb. As turbidity is introduced, the higher pressure air flows backward (just like a fire hose in your mouth) and goes forward and escapes right back out the front nostrils rather than being caressed past all the waiting cooling fins - equitably. Your goal, is to move the sheltered cylinders into the flow path (oh yeh - they are fixed), reduce turbidity and manage the temperature and pressure differentials between the high and the low (the Upper and the Lower cowl). Add to it, the gymnastics of demanding rather than asking the ram ambient air to do a 90 degree course reversal and then flow down, then forward 45 degrees out of the oil cooler into the path (90 degrees) of the converging convective air flowing down through those fins and you might perceive the need to assist (Augment) with the use of more efficiently escaping of exhaust gases to help remove heated air and scavenge with lower pressure to improve cooling. Cool Fins, Cool Oil and keep Tunnels Cool. The Wholly Cowl is a big leap in the correct direction. (IMHO). George got 23 Lancair guys to invest an entire weekend in Ada, Oklahoma (last year) just to study for those two days this esoteric philosophy. George gave Cirrus the highest marks on temperature extraction from their Continental IO-550s. He makes quite a living improving Beechcraft. What can be done differently. In the high nose attitude, the ducts are (should be) installed to maximize flow during time of greatest cooling need (80 degrees ambient and slower forward air speeds). The entry ramp should be aerodynamically modified to reduce turbidity (Lopresti) and help the eldest child up front. The baffles are improved, the flow is directed and the back wall is caressingly coerced from aft travel to downward travel of the baby cylinder as well as cooperating with that perfectly well balanced (you can't do a thing for) middle child with the cool attitude in the middle. Anyone see Andy Chiavetta's carbon fiber ductwork for Darryl Greenmeyers screaming Legacy at Reno. Distribution +/- 10 degrees between cylinder readouts is the desire. Are your injectors and cylinders flow balanced (See Monty Barrett at BPE)? Are the probes confirmed as working correctly? Do you know the cost of doing a Top Overhaul if you were off and George is right about 430? This is about Experimentation. OOPs, I just fell off the soapbox. sorry John Cox Do not Archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 5:11 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps I have 31 hours on my IO-540 and the oil consumption is very low. Engine monitor is an EIS 6000 and I have set the cylinder head temp limit to 435F. Problem is the #1 cylinder is 30F degrees hotter than all the others and will quickly reach its limit on an 80 degree ambient day climbing at 120mph, 25"/2600 rpm. Pushing the nose down to 140mph and backing off the power will of course help. But, its still quite a dance to just keep the temps from increasing and the aircraft climbing. The #1 cylinder is always the hottest and the #3 the coldest. From this I assume the front dam needs to be trimmed down. I talked to another pilot at Vans Homecoming and the highest CHT he has seen is 360. His high EGT's were also in the low 1300, whereas I am seeing EGT's of 1525. Cowling inlet and outlet are purely stock. I do not have the hot tunnel problem. Climbing at full rich or leaned conservately (~1250 EGT) does not seem to make much difference. What is the experience of others flying? Is the temp distribution such that the #1 is hottest and #3 coolest? Looking at my CHT & EGT is my engine monitor out of calibration? Is watching the CHT's during climb a normal activity or never of interest? Would appreciate your experiences, Bill DeRouchey billderou@yahoo.com flying fast, climbing slow ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:19 PM PST US From: JSMcGrew@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps Bill, I had very similar CHT issues initially. My #1 cylinder was (and still is) a bit hotter than the others. I had problems with CHT over temps in a climb. The first thing I looked at was the entrance vs exit area of the cowl. I've heard recommendations that the cowl exit area should be 120 to 133% of the inlet area. This is because the air is being heated and expands on its way through. I looked at some rough estimates on the stock design and it is somewhere between 110 and 120% depending on how you estimate it. Therefore, I took the approach of increasing the exit area to about 133% of the inlet (see my post titled: My tunnel heat fix for details). Although it did reduce the heat in my tunnel, the reason for and result of the change was to reduce my CHTs in a climb. After the fix I climbed from T/O to 11500' full power at 105 knots and never saw CHTs above about 420 or so. I am reluctant to trim the #1 cylinder baffle air dam until I fly in some cold weather this winter. I don't want to create a winter over cooling problem while trying to fix a summer over heating problem. Jim 40134 In a message dated 9/19/2006 8:14:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, billderou@yahoo.com writes: I have 31 hours on my IO-540 and the oil consumption is very low. Engine monitor is an EIS 6000 and I have set the cylinder head temp limit to 435F. Problem is the #1 cylinder is 30F degrees hotter than all the others and will quickly reach its limit on an 80 degree ambient day climbing at 120mph, 25"/2600 rpm. Pushing the nose down to 140mph and backing off the power will of course help. But, its still quite a dance to just keep the temps from increasing and the aircraft climbing. The #1 cylinder is always the hottest and the #3 the coldest. From this I assume the front dam needs to be trimmed down. I talked to another pilot at Vans Homecoming and the highest CHT he has seen is 360. His high EGT's were also in the low 1300, whereas I am seeing EGT's of 1525. Cowling inlet and outlet are purely stock. I do not have the hot tunnel problem. Climbing at full rich or leaned conservately (~1250 EGT) does not seem to make much difference. What is the experience of others flying? Is the temp distribution such that the #1 is hottest and #3 coolest? Looking at my CHT & EGT is my engine monitor out of calibration? Is watching the CHT's during climb a normal activity or never of interest? Would appreciate your experiences, Bill DeRouchey _billderou@yahoo.com_ (mailto:billderou@yahoo.com) flying fast, climbing slow (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:54 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps He didn't make it up, Rick ..... just misused it. Turbidity refers to the clarity of water. If you mangle 'turbulence' bad enough ..... I guess you get 'turbidity'! :-D Linn ricksked@earthlink.net wrote: > John, what's "turbidity" I take you for a smart guy but sometimes I > think you make words up. ;) > > (I looked it up FWIW) > > Rick S. > 40185 > > do not archive > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John W. Cox > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 6:20 PM > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps > > George Braly posted to the Lancair group just yesterday the > controversial position on the importance of CHT limits of 430F. It > was not about EGTs which are an indication of power output and > which side of the F/A mixture you lean to. As Tim knows, I don't > need to start another war on the detrimental effects of aluminum > degradation at higher temperatures (Mine) and the advantage of > convective cooling of aluminum cylinder heads in the time given > during climbs. > > > > But here is a point to ponder between pounding rivets. One > cylinder rests in the Lee (sheltered behind the front baffle) of > the prevailing ram air flow. Another is safely in the middle with > a balanced and reasonable flow on the top, the aft and the forward > fins getting plenty of cooling. A Third is parked at the point of > turbidity where builders think air will willingly make a violent > high velocity 90 degree bend in direction without interruption of > flow. That location also has an aluminum shield reflecting heat > back onto it and defeating convective cooling. Hence, George's > (GAMI and Cirrus Designs Zen like pursuit of effective flow) using > modified baffles, gaskets and donuts. Airflow through a > rectangular opening is not as effective in flow as a perfect > circle. (that is contrary to factory design and opinion) "Just > built it". A Bell curve design is great. The goal should be the > reduction of turbidity, the manipulation and control of pressure, > the application of cooler ram air for a longer period in contact > with the target material to allow more convective transfer and > longer component life. > > > > It is only a premise (Mine) that the factory stock cowl leaves a > lot of points on the table for reduced aperture area in a High > Alpha, prolonged climb. As turbidity is introduced, the higher > pressure air flows backward (just like a fire hose in your mouth) > and goes forward and escapes right back out the front nostrils > rather than being caressed past all the waiting cooling fins - > equitably. Your goal, is to move the sheltered cylinders into the > flow path (oh yeh - they are fixed), reduce turbidity and manage > the temperature and pressure differentials between the high and > the low (the Upper and the Lower cowl). Add to it, the gymnastics > of demanding rather than asking the ram ambient air to do a 90 > degree course reversal and then flow down, then forward 45 degrees > out of the oil cooler into the path (90 degrees) of the converging > convective air flowing down through those fins and you might > perceive the need to assist (Augment) with the use of more > efficiently escaping of exhaust gases to help remove heated air > and scavenge with lower pressure to improve cooling. Cool Fins, > Cool Oil and keep Tunnels Cool. > > > > The Wholly Cowl is a big leap in the correct direction. (IMHO). > George got 23 Lancair guys to invest an entire weekend in Ada, > Oklahoma (last year) just to study for those two days this > esoteric philosophy. George gave Cirrus the highest marks on > temperature extraction from their Continental IO-550s. He makes > quite a living improving Beechcraft. > > > > What can be done differently. In the high nose attitude, the > ducts are (should be) installed to maximize flow during time of > greatest cooling need (80 degrees ambient and slower forward air > speeds). The entry ramp should be aerodynamically modified to > reduce turbidity (Lopresti) and help the eldest child up front. > The baffles are improved, the flow is directed and the back wall > is caressingly coerced from aft travel to downward travel of the > baby cylinder as well as cooperating with that perfectly well > balanced (you can't do a thing for) middle child with the cool > attitude in the middle. Anyone see Andy Chiavetta's carbon fiber > ductwork for Darryl Greenmeyers screaming Legacy at Reno. > > > > Distribution +/- 10 degrees between cylinder readouts is the > desire. Are your injectors and cylinders flow balanced (See Monty > Barrett at BPE)? Are the probes confirmed as working correctly? > Do you know the cost of doing a Top Overhaul if you were off and > George is right about 430? This is about Experimentation. > > > > > > OOPs, I just fell off the soapbox... sorry > > > > John Cox > > Do not Archive > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill > DeRouchey > Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 5:11 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps > > > > I have 31 hours on my IO-540 and the oil consumption is very low. > Engine monitor is an EIS 6000 and I have set the cylinder head > temp limit to 435F. Problem is the #1 cylinder is 30F degrees > hotter than all the others and will quickly reach its limit on an > 80 degree ambient day climbing at 120mph, 25"/2600 rpm. Pushing > the nose down to 140mph and backing off the power will of course > help. But, its still quite a dance to just keep the temps from > increasing and the aircraft climbing. > > > > The #1 cylinder is always the hottest and the #3 the coldest. From > this I assume the front dam needs to be trimmed down. I talked to > another pilot at Vans Homecoming and the highest CHT he has seen > is 360. His high EGT's were also in the low 1300, whereas I am > seeing EGT's of 1525. > > > > Cowling inlet and outlet are purely stock. I do not have the hot > tunnel problem. Climbing at full rich or leaned conservately > (~1250 EGT) does not seem to make much difference. > > > > What is the experience of others flying? Is the temp distribution > such that the #1 is hottest and #3 coolest? Looking at my CHT & > EGT is my engine monitor out of calibration? Is watching the CHT's > during climb a normal activity or never of interest? > > > > Would appreciate your experiences, > > Bill DeRouchey > > billderou@yahoo.com > > flying fast, climbing slow > > > > > > > > > > > > >s.com/Navigator?RV10-List > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:52 PM PST US From: "Rob Wright" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps John or other engine guys, Can you really overcool an engine? I understand about shock cooling the insides but keeping your whole engine in a nice cool temperature environment sounds like a worthwhile goose chase. I'd keep mine at room temperature if I could help it for tolerances, TBO, etc. Rob Wright #392 Dreaming about hooking a big vacuum to the lower cowl........ _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JSMcGrew@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 9:01 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps Bill, I had very similar CHT issues initially. My #1 cylinder was (and still is) a bit hotter than the others. I had problems with CHT over temps in a climb. The first thing I looked at was the entrance vs exit area of the cowl. I've heard recommendations that the cowl exit area should be 120 to 133% of the inlet area. This is because the air is being heated and expands on its way through. I looked at some rough estimates on the stock design and it is somewhere between 110 and 120% depending on how you estimate it. Therefore, I took the approach of increasing the exit area to about 133% of the inlet (see my post titled: My tunnel heat fix for details). Although it did reduce the heat in my tunnel, the reason for and result of the change was to reduce my CHTs in a climb. After the fix I climbed from T/O to 11500' full power at 105 knots and never saw CHTs above about 420 or so. I am reluctant to trim the #1 cylinder baffle air dam until I fly in some cold weather this winter. I don't want to create a winter over cooling problem while trying to fix a summer over heating problem. Jim 40134 In a message dated 9/19/2006 8:14:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, billderou@yahoo.com writes: I have 31 hours on my IO-540 and the oil consumption is very low. Engine monitor is an EIS 6000 and I have set the cylinder head temp limit to 435F. Problem is the #1 cylinder is 30F degrees hotter than all the others and will quickly reach its limit on an 80 degree ambient day climbing at 120mph, 25"/2600 rpm. Pushing the nose down to 140mph and backing off the power will of course help. But, its still quite a dance to just keep the temps from increasing and the aircraft climbing. The #1 cylinder is always the hottest and the #3 the coldest. From this I assume the front dam needs to be trimmed down. I talked to another pilot at Vans Homecoming and the highest CHT he has seen is 360. His high EGT's were also in the low 1300, whereas I am seeing EGT's of 1525. Cowling inlet and outlet are purely stock. I do not have the hot tunnel problem. Climbing at full rich or leaned conservately (~1250 EGT) does not seem to make much difference. What is the experience of others flying? Is the temp distribution such that the #1 is hottest and #3 coolest? Looking at my CHT & EGT is my engine monitor out of calibration? Is watching the CHT's during climb a normal activity or never of interest? Would appreciate your experiences, Bill DeRouchey billderou@yahoo.com flying fast, climbing slow ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?RV10-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ronics.com/">http://wiki.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:26 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps From: "John W. Cox" Probably a misspelled adjective or lost noun for Turbulence. Violently screwing with mother nature's desire to send air currents to unspeakable places on their natural course. (Or in my confused mind - characterized by or producing obscurity by having my Turban rapped too tightly from all the Islamo-Fascist talk show hosts.) When an arc curves more than an established number of degrees (I think its 5 from Hoerner's Fluid Dynamics), The fluid flow dynamics breaks it loose - turbulence. It creates a consequence - unintended by the original builder of RV-10s and other exciting aircraft. "Screwing with Mother Nature while under the cowl". When its on the wing, its called an Insipid Stall. "PUSH - PUSH - DOWN!" JC ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ricksked@earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 6:37 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps John, what's "turbidity" I take you for a smart guy but sometimes I think you make words up. ;) (I looked it up FWIW) Rick S. 40185 do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:22 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps From: "John W. Cox" Lack of Clarity Linn. It's the Anonym (not Synonym or Homonym) of Clarity. I thought you knew I have little of it right now. I took a couple of turns off the turban to find the answer under TURBID. Deficient in clarity. In this care a disturbance which defeats the use of air for its intended purpose. Stirred up or Disturbed. JC 40600 ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps He didn't make it up, Rick ..... just misused it. Turbidity refers to the clarity of water. If you mangle 'turbulence' bad enough ..... I guess you get 'turbidity'! :-D Linn ricksked@earthlink.net wrote: John, what's "turbidity" I take you for a smart guy but sometimes I think you make words up. ;) (I looked it up FWIW) Rick S. 40185 do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: John W. Cox To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 6:20 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps George Braly posted to the Lancair group just yesterday the controversial position on the importance of CHT limits of 430F. It was not about EGTs which are an indication of power output and which side of the F/A mixture you lean to. As Tim knows, I don't need to start another war on the detrimental effects of aluminum degradation at higher temperatures (Mine) and the advantage of convective cooling of aluminum cylinder heads in the time given during climbs. But here is a point to ponder between pounding rivets. One cylinder rests in the Lee (sheltered behind the front baffle) of the prevailing ram air flow. Another is safely in the middle with a balanced and reasonable flow on the top, the aft and the forward fins getting plenty of cooling. A Third is parked at the point of turbidity where builders think air will willingly make a violent high velocity 90 degree bend in direction without interruption of flow. That location also has an aluminum shield reflecting heat back onto it and defeating convective cooling. Hence, George's (GAMI and Cirrus Designs Zen like pursuit of effective flow) using modified baffles, gaskets and donuts. Airflow through a rectangular opening is not as effective in flow as a perfect circle. (that is contrary to factory design and opinion) "Just built it". A Bell curve design is great. The goal should be the reduction of turbidity, the manipulation and control of pressure, the application of cooler ram air for a longer period in contact with the target material to allow more convective transfer and longer component life. It is only a premise (Mine) that the factory stock cowl leaves a lot of points on the table for reduced aperture area in a High Alpha, prolonged climb. As turbidity is introduced, the higher pressure air flows backward (just like a fire hose in your mouth) and goes forward and escapes right back out the front nostrils rather than being caressed past all the waiting cooling fins - equitably. Your goal, is to move the sheltered cylinders into the flow path (oh yeh - they are fixed), reduce turbidity and manage the temperature and pressure differentials between the high and the low (the Upper and the Lower cowl). Add to it, the gymnastics of demanding rather than asking the ram ambient air to do a 90 degree course reversal and then flow down, then forward 45 degrees out of the oil cooler into the path (90 degrees) of the converging convective air flowing down through those fins and you might perceive the need to assist (Augment) with the use of more efficiently escaping of exhaust gases to help remove heated air and scavenge with lower pressure to improve cooling. Cool Fins, Cool Oil and keep Tunnels Cool. The Wholly Cowl is a big leap in the correct direction. (IMHO). George got 23 Lancair guys to invest an entire weekend in Ada, Oklahoma (last year) just to study for those two days this esoteric philosophy. George gave Cirrus the highest marks on temperature extraction from their Continental IO-550s. He makes quite a living improving Beechcraft. What can be done differently. In the high nose attitude, the ducts are (should be) installed to maximize flow during time of greatest cooling need (80 degrees ambient and slower forward air speeds). The entry ramp should be aerodynamically modified to reduce turbidity (Lopresti) and help the eldest child up front. The baffles are improved, the flow is directed and the back wall is caressingly coerced from aft travel to downward travel of the baby cylinder as well as cooperating with that perfectly well balanced (you can't do a thing for) middle child with the cool attitude in the middle. Anyone see Andy Chiavetta's carbon fiber ductwork for Darryl Greenmeyers screaming Legacy at Reno. Distribution +/- 10 degrees between cylinder readouts is the desire. Are your injectors and cylinders flow balanced (See Monty Barrett at BPE)? Are the probes confirmed as working correctly? Do you know the cost of doing a Top Overhaul if you were off and George is right about 430? This is about Experimentation. OOPs, I just fell off the soapbox... sorry John Cox Do not Archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 5:11 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps I have 31 hours on my IO-540 and the oil consumption is very low. Engine monitor is an EIS 6000 and I have set the cylinder head temp limit to 435F. Problem is the #1 cylinder is 30F degrees hotter than all the others and will quickly reach its limit on an 80 degree ambient day climbing at 120mph, 25"/2600 rpm. Pushing the nose down to 140mph and backing off the power will of course help. But, its still quite a dance to just keep the temps from increasing and the aircraft climbing. The #1 cylinder is always the hottest and the #3 the coldest. >From this I assume the front dam needs to be trimmed down. I talked to another pilot at Vans Homecoming and the highest CHT he has seen is 360. His high EGT's were also in the low 1300, whereas I am seeing EGT's of 1525. Cowling inlet and outlet are purely stock. I do not have the hot tunnel problem. Climbing at full rich or leaned conservately (~1250 EGT) does not seem to make much difference. What is the experience of others flying? Is the temp distribution such that the #1 is hottest and #3 coolest? Looking at my CHT & EGT is my engine monitor out of calibration? Is watching the CHT's during climb a normal activity or never of interest? Would appreciate your experiences, Bill DeRouchey billderou@yahoo.com flying fast, climbing slow s.com/Navigator?RV10-List ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:41 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps From: "John W. Cox" Yes but only theoretically. George thinks such things are bunk. Speed brakes come into play. Most engines need temperature to expand clearances for proper oil distribution, fuel additive needs it to scarf lead deposits from spark plugs on Low Idle. Too much, too little, just right... sound like a Fairy Tale. Extremes and violent swings are to be avoided except in an Emergency situations. Tufting the airfoil to locate and correct back-burbles, stagnant zones and improve (reduce) drag are a commendable pursuit. I am prepared to finance Randy's fuel bill if he and Rob Hickman have a camera ship standing by to document a pure "Plans Built RV-10" Test Flight. And it doesn't qualify as Hot Rodding, yet saves fuel and produces similar speed results to squeezing 300+ ponies into the RV-10. #600 Do not Archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Wright Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 7:23 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps John or other engine guys, Can you really overcool an engine? I understand about shock cooling the insides but keeping your whole engine in a nice cool temperature environment sounds like a worthwhile goose chase. I'd keep mine at room temperature if I could help it for tolerances, TBO, etc. Rob Wright #392 Dreaming about hooking a big vacuum to the lower cowl........................ ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:27 PM PST US From: "John Dunne" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps ...and who said this list was only good for RV building information?? JC is back! Aka the TURBINATOR! John 40315 Do not archive. From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Sent: Wednesday, 20 September 2006 12:41 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps Lack of Clarity Linn. It's the Anonym (not Synonym or Homonym) of Clarity. I thought you knew I have little of it right now. I took a couple of turns off the turban to find the answer under TURBID. Deficient in clarity. In this care a disturbance which defeats the use of air for its intended purpose. Stirred up or Disturbed. JC 40600 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps He didn't make it up, Rick ..... just misused it. Turbidity refers to the clarity of water. If you mangle 'turbulence' bad enough ..... I guess you get 'turbidity'! :-D Linn ricksked@earthlink.net wrote: John, what's "turbidity" I take you for a smart guy but sometimes I think you make words up. ;) (I looked it up FWIW) Rick S. 40185 do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: John W. Cox Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 6:20 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps George Braly posted to the Lancair group just yesterday the controversial position on the importance of CHT limits of 430F. It was not about EGTs which are an indication of power output and which side of the F/A mixture you lean to. As Tim knows, I don't need to start another war on the detrimental effects of aluminum degradation at higher temperatures (Mine) and the advantage of convective cooling of aluminum cylinder heads in the time given during climbs. But here is a point to ponder between pounding rivets. One cylinder rests in the Lee (sheltered behind the front baffle) of the prevailing ram air flow. Another is safely in the middle with a balanced and reasonable flow on the top, the aft and the forward fins getting plenty of cooling. A Third is parked at the point of turbidity where builders think air will willingly make a violent high velocity 90 degree bend in direction without interruption of flow. That location also has an aluminum shield reflecting heat back onto it and defeating convective cooling. Hence, George's (GAMI and Cirrus Designs Zen like pursuit of effective flow) using modified baffles, gaskets and donuts. Airflow through a rectangular opening is not as effective in flow as a perfect circle. (that is contrary to factory design and opinion) "Just built it". A Bell curve design is great. The goal should be the reduction of turbidity, the manipulation and control of pressure, the application of cooler ram air for a longer period in contact with the target material to allow more convective transfer and longer component life. It is only a premise (Mine) that the factory stock cowl leaves a lot of points on the table for reduced aperture area in a High Alpha, prolonged climb. As turbidity is introduced, the higher pressure air flows backward (just like a fire hose in your mouth) and goes forward and escapes right back out the front nostrils rather than being caressed past all the waiting cooling fins - equitably. Your goal, is to move the sheltered cylinders into the flow path (oh yeh - they are fixed), reduce turbidity and manage the temperature and pressure differentials between the high and the low (the Upper and the Lower cowl). Add to it, the gymnastics of demanding rather than asking the ram ambient air to do a 90 degree course reversal and then flow down, then forward 45 degrees out of the oil cooler into the path (90 degrees) of the converging convective air flowing down through those fins and you might perceive the need to assist (Augment) with the use of more efficiently escaping of exhaust gases to help remove heated air and scavenge with lower pressure to improve cooling. Cool Fins, Cool Oil and keep Tunnels Cool. The Wholly Cowl is a big leap in the correct direction. (IMHO). George got 23 Lancair guys to invest an entire weekend in Ada, Oklahoma (last year) just to study for those two days this esoteric philosophy. George gave Cirrus the highest marks on temperature extraction from their Continental IO-550s. He makes quite a living improving Beechcraft. What can be done differently. In the high nose attitude, the ducts are (should be) installed to maximize flow during time of greatest cooling need (80 degrees ambient and slower forward air speeds). The entry ramp should be aerodynamically modified to reduce turbidity (Lopresti) and help the eldest child up front. The baffles are improved, the flow is directed and the back wall is caressingly coerced from aft travel to downward travel of the baby cylinder as well as cooperating with that perfectly well balanced (you can't do a thing for) middle child with the cool attitude in the middle. Anyone see Andy Chiavetta's carbon fiber ductwork for Darryl Greenmeyers screaming Legacy at Reno. Distribution +/- 10 degrees between cylinder readouts is the desire. Are your injectors and cylinders flow balanced (See Monty Barrett at BPE)? Are the probes confirmed as working correctly? Do you know the cost of doing a Top Overhaul if you were off and George is right about 430? This is about Experimentation. OOPs, I just fell off the soapbox. sorry John Cox Do not Archive _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 5:11 PM Subject: RV10-List: Cylinder head temps I have 31 hours on my IO-540 and the oil consumption is very low. Engine monitor is an EIS 6000 and I have set the cylinder head temp limit to 435F. Problem is the #1 cylinder is 30F degrees hotter than all the others and will quickly reach its limit on an 80 degree ambient day climbing at 120mph, 25"/2600 rpm. Pushing the nose down to 140mph and backing off the power will of course help. But, its still quite a dance to just keep the temps from increasing and the aircraft climbing. The #1 cylinder is always the hottest and the #3 the coldest. From this I assume the front dam needs to be trimmed down. I talked to another pilot at Vans Homecoming and the highest CHT he has seen is 360. His high EGT's were also in the low 1300, whereas I am seeing EGT's of 1525. Cowling inlet and outlet are purely stock. I do not have the hot tunnel problem. Climbing at full rich or leaned conservately (~1250 EGT) does not seem to make much difference. What is the experience of others flying? Is the temp distribution such that the #1 is hottest and #3 coolest? Looking at my CHT & EGT is my engine monitor out of calibration? Is watching the CHT's during climb a normal activity or never of interest? Would appreciate your experiences, Bill DeRouchey billderou@yahoo.com flying fast, climbing slow s.com/Navigator?RV10-List ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:52 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: I'm back From: tdtpilot@aim.com ALLCON: I'm back online! No longer with Avidyne, but I stuck around long enough to get the employee discount . . . TDT 40025 tdtpilot@aim.com ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:49 PM PST US From: Sean Stephens Subject: Re: RV10-List: I'm back --> RV10-List message posted by: Sean Stephens tdtpilot@aim.com wrote: > ALLCON: > I'm back online! No longer with Avidyne, but I stuck around long > enough to get the employee discount . . . > > TDT > 40025 > tdtpilot@aim.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ** > *Dang! I was hoping for an inside straight into some Avidyne stuff. :) -Sean #40303 * ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:10 PM PST US From: "John Dunne" Subject: RV10-List: Tru Trak Pitch Servo Installing my Tru Trak pitch servo, with the mod 2 torque enhanced version arm with wheel and cable and apart from the lack of installation detail, (well documented in the archives) I'm missing the centre screw to fix the wheel in place. Can anyone who may have this version, tell me how long that screw is and how is it locked or fixed in place? Tight, Loctite, lock washer, she'll be right? John 40315 (finishing)