---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/04/06: 60 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:46 AM - Re: Hugo Rv10#40456 (RAS) 2. 02:26 AM - Re: Opinion regarding air vents (Russell Daves) 3. 04:20 AM - Re: Re: MVP-50 Fuel Flow Transducer (GRANSCOTT@aol.com) 4. 04:50 AM - Re: Filler wars - Part I (gary) 5. 05:12 AM - Re: Direct2 issue (Wayne Edgerton) 6. 05:48 AM - QB Wings and Standard Fuselage (Michael Wellenzohn) 7. 06:06 AM - Re: Direct2 issue (Mark Ritter) 8. 06:12 AM - Re: Opinion regarding air vents (John W. Cox) 9. 06:33 AM - Re: Priming in a confined space (Rick) 10. 06:52 AM - Re: grounding .... was Priming in a confined space (linn Walters) 11. 07:00 AM - Re: Filler wars - Part I (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 12. 07:06 AM - Re: Filler wars - Part I (linn Walters) 13. 07:16 AM - Re: QB Wings and Standard Fuselage (Jesse Saint) 14. 07:57 AM - Re: Filler wars - Part I (John Gonzalez) 15. 08:53 AM - Re: Filler wars - Part I (JOHN STARN) 16. 09:53 AM - Fuel tank return fuel line (Jae Chang) 17. 09:55 AM - Al fuel vent line cutting (Jae Chang) 18. 10:00 AM - Re: Filler wars - Part I (Vern W. Smith) 19. 10:05 AM - Flap Trailing Edge (Jeff Carpenter) 20. 10:17 AM - Re: Al fuel vent line cutting (Rick) 21. 10:22 AM - Re: Al fuel vent line cutting (egohr1) 22. 10:31 AM - Re: Flap Trailing Edge (Rick) 23. 10:32 AM - Re: Fuel tank return fuel line (Deems Davis) 24. 11:01 AM - Re: Filler wars - Part I (John Gonzalez) 25. 11:05 AM - Re: Fuel tank return fuel line (John Jessen) 26. 11:15 AM - Re: Filler wars - Part I (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 27. 11:30 AM - Re: Filler wars - Part I (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 28. 11:41 AM - Re: Filler wars - Part I (John Gonzalez) 29. 11:45 AM - Re: Al fuel vent line cutting (Tim Olson) 30. 11:46 AM - Re: Fuel tank return fuel line (Tim Olson) 31. 12:02 PM - Life Insurance (Jeff Carpenter) 32. 12:11 PM - Re: Life Insurance (Jeffery J. Morgan) 33. 12:28 PM - Re: Life Insurance (Dj Merrill) 34. 12:28 PM - Re: Fuel tank return fuel line (John Jessen) 35. 01:12 PM - Re: Al fuel vent line cutting (JOHN STARN) 36. 01:31 PM - Re: Al fuel vent line cutting (linn Walters) 37. 01:42 PM - Re: Life Insurance (linn Walters) 38. 02:04 PM - Re: Life Insurance (Dj Merrill) 39. 02:20 PM - Re: Life Insurance (Bobby J. Hughes) 40. 02:56 PM - Re: Al fuel vent line cutting (Jae Chang) 41. 04:04 PM - Re: Fuel tank return fuel line (Jae Chang) 42. 04:45 PM - Life insurace (Paul Walter) 43. 04:58 PM - Het Allen how's the engine? (Deems Davis) 44. 05:09 PM - Re: Priming in a confined space (John W. Cox) 45. 05:20 PM - Re: Filler wars - Part I (John W. Cox) 46. 05:22 PM - Re: Fuel tank return fuel line (bob.kaufmann) 47. 05:40 PM - Re: Filler wars - Part I (John W. Cox) 48. 05:57 PM - Re: Het Allen how's the engine? (Larry Rosen) 49. 06:17 PM - rear seat shoulder harness attach (John Hasbrouck) 50. 06:36 PM - Oops (Deems Davis) 51. 06:51 PM - Re: Filler wars - Part I (McGANN, Ron) 52. 06:54 PM - Re: rear seat shoulder harness attach (Marcus Cooper) 53. 06:57 PM - Re: Filler wars - Part I (bob.kaufmann) 54. 07:08 PM - Re: Fuel tank return fuel line (Deems Davis) 55. 07:12 PM - Load Analysis & Electrical Schematic (Larry Rosen) 56. 07:33 PM - Re: Load Analysis & Electrical Schematic (bob.kaufmann) 57. 07:48 PM - Change In Status (LES KEARNEY) 58. 08:30 PM - Re: Direct2 issue (KiloPapa) 59. 09:01 PM - Re: Load Analysis & Electrical Schematic (Rob Wright) 60. 11:09 PM - Re: Change In Status (John Jessen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:04 AM PST US From: "RAS" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Hugo Rv10#40456 --> RV10-List message posted by: "RAS" Hi, there's a pilot hole in the side of the fuselage skin, roughly 4 inches forward of the flap actuator . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:26:45 AM PST US From: "Russell Daves" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Opinion regarding air vents I second Jim's Opinion, but like Tim Olson, I may add an overhead console and overhead vents when I install my flightline interior (less seats), due for delivery in January. My wife installed a headliner but decided after Grady O'Neal at GLO Custom Paint did such a wonderful job on the paint that she wanted me to order the Flightline interior. Russ Daves N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 LOE 2006 Bound ----- Original Message ----- From: JSMcGrew@aol.com To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:15 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Opinion regarding air vents In my opinion, the stock vents are quite adequate for cooling. You can point them up toward your face if you need it, or elsewhere if you don't want all that wind blowing on your microphone. For a while I had diverted the passenger vent for avionics cooling... I was able to keep the most finicky passengers happy in 100 deg weather by directing the pilot's vent cross cockpit. Personally, I would not spend the effort or panel space raising the stock vents higher or installing overhead vents. Jim 40134 - Flying Jim "Scooter" McGrew Graduate Student Humans and Automation Lab (http://halab.mit.edu) Department of Aeronautics and Astronautics Massachusetts Institute of Technology In a message dated 10/3/2006 10:15:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, deemsdavis@cox.net writes: --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis For those of you that are flying or for those of you that have spent some time in one of the transition aircraft. How would you assess the need/desirability of overhead fresh-air vents? I've read comments that the standard Van's vents provide an abundance of air, however most of it is aimed to low (gonad refrigerant). If the Naca Vents were ducted to provide fresh air to the pilot/copilot face/head/trunk from a little higher on the instrument panel,would the overhead vents still be worth having ? I've got the Cabin cover off and now would be the right time to add something if it's necessary, If it's not that's one modification I'd be happy to forgo. Deems Davis # 406 Panel/Finishing http://deemsrv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:20:56 AM PST US From: GRANSCOTT@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: MVP-50 Fuel Flow Transducer In a message dated 10/3/2006 8:01:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, wcurtis@core.com writes: I ordered one of their new transducers "at a really good price" telling them it was a spare for the FlowScan. It is actually for the RV-10 to be used with the Grand Rapid EIS. Not trying to be judgemental, but a "little" lie about a product's intention to get a lower price? I guess there are some things we don't need to know. P ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:27 AM PST US From: "gary" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: "gary" For those of you new to composits there are two products that you should not be without. Superfil by Poly-Fiber and UV Smooth Prime Filler. The first is a body filler but it is light weight and sands easily. It goes on easy and comes off easy. This is a must, for get the bondo. The second is for pin holes in the composits. It to works great. Both are pricy but as they say you get what you pay for. Spruce has both of them. Gary 40274 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 3:54 PM Subject: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis I've got the cabin cover off prior to match drilling it to the Fuse and figured this would be a good time to smooth out the "varicous veins" left from the vacum bagging and to otherwise sand and fill the depressions/hills and valleys to make for a more ascethetic interior appearance. I merrily began this process using Bondo for the deeper 'valleys' and a product called 'Icing' for the more shallow. John 'The Turbinator" Cox who monitors this grasshoppers progress to keep me from wandering too far afield from 'acceptable' practices. Noted what I was doing and in an offline e-mail diplomatically informed me that both of the 2 products I was using have histories of shrinking after 18-24 months of use, and particularly when exposed to high (120F) temps. >:o ! He sent me some pictures from some Lancair projects to dramatically demonstrate the results. So my question is: What 'aircraft grade' filler are people using? And where did you obtain it from? I'd appreciate hearing experience particularly from anybody that's already solved this problem. The application I'm using it for, is definitely Non Structural, and cosmetic only, so I don't need/want to use flox, epoxy and micro takes too long to set up to be able to sand. as I'm finding that it takes many many coats/layers of filler to get a smooth surface. Let the games begin Deems Davis # 406 Panel/Finishing http://deemsrv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:56 AM PST US From: "Wayne Edgerton" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Direct2 issue I've made a terrible mistake on this posting and I need to apologize to Stein. I hadn't meant for this to be posted on Matronics but rather sent confidential to Stein. I'm not sure what I did but I obviously wasn't paying attention well enough and selected the wrong e-mail address when I sent it. This was a very bad mistake on my part and I certainly owe Stein an apology. Wayne Edgerton #40336 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:02 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: QB Wings and Standard Fuselage From: "Michael Wellenzohn" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Michael Wellenzohn" Hello everybody, I am starting soon with the tailcone so its time to order the next kit parts. Is ist possible to order the QB wings and have the standard fuselage shipped first (without the ) so that I can still keep on building without having to wait until the Wings are ready. If Wings and Fuse would be delivered at the same time I'd face some space problems. Any experience out there in the community? Cheers Michael #40511 http://www.wellenzohn.net -------- RV-10 builder #511 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65693#65693 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:04 AM PST US From: "Mark Ritter" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Direct2 issue --> RV10-List message posted by: "Mark Ritter" Kevin, The Garmin MX-20 has its own data base (another subscription fee). It talks to the G430 and displays GPS flight plan route, etc. There are three map pages (1) VFR map page that looks like a sectional map, (2) IFR map page that has victor airways, intersections, etc., (3) Custom map page which is a sectional map page but with the ability add or delete items. It has a ton of features and options like XM weather and radio and approach chart display - too numerous to mention here. It is also very easy to learn how to use the features. Mark >From: kilopapa@antelecom.net >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Direct2 issue >Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 21:40:29 -0800 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: kilopapa@antelecom.net > >Your system sound nice. What is displayed on the MX20? Is >it a standalone moving map? > >Thanks, > >Kevin >40494 > >----- Original Message Follows ----- >From: "Mark Ritter" >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Direct2 issue >Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 21:16:22 -0500 > >... and went with a dual screen > >GRT and MX 20 setup. I cancelled after getting cold feet > >on the cost and not because of a problem with Direct2. > >The GRT, MX 20 with XM weather and radio coupled with a > >G430, TT Sorcerer A/P and SL30 makes for a pretty capable > >panel and great folks to deal with. > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:05 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Opinion regarding air vents From: "John W. Cox" Great way to strategize the financial decision-making Russ. Hope my wife does not read this. I am having VANS delete the NACA and rear PAX ducts from the fuselage skin CNC punch. I am relocating the NACAs farther forward (up against the firewall) and directing them higher where air ducts are normally designed to be located. My gonads will be just fine - thanks. This requires mounting the rudder pedal mounts lower and having the side tubing shortened (the exact distance the mount blocks are lowered). I liked the dark charcoal powder coat effect, so the weld process will be done preparatory to the last color powder coat. The rear Pax will have total control from the empennage mounted NACA with "forward flow" overhead air plenum (Like Mooney, Piper, Beechcraft and Cirrus). Stole the idea from Ed Hayden. Size adequacy was not the issue for me, it was the blatantly poor design placement. However Ed's team found that a larger overhead orifice reduced the air stream whistle during Max Cool. Jepp charts can be just too darned important on a hot day (to stay on my lap). Secondly the routing of the ductwork can allow for removal of condensate before it bubbles into the hermetically sealed avionics cockpit - Dehumidifiers anyone?. We are going into our 6 months of 85% humidity from the gentle Pacific Ocean Maritime flow just now. John 40600 - Flying in my mind daily Do not Archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 2:26 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Opinion regarding air vents I second Jim's Opinion, but like Tim Olson, I may add an overhead console and overhead vents when I install my flightline interior (less seats), due for delivery in January. My wife installed a headliner but decided after Grady O'Neal at GLO Custom Paint did such a wonderful job on the paint that she wanted me to order the Flightline interior. Russ Daves N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 LOE 2006 Bound ----- Original Message ----- From: JSMcGrew@aol.com To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:15 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Opinion regarding air vents In my opinion, the stock vents are quite adequate for cooling. You can point them up toward your face if you need it, or elsewhere if you don't want all that wind blowing on your microphone. For a while I had diverted the passenger vent for avionics cooling... I was able to keep the most finicky passengers happy in 100 deg weather by directing the pilot's vent cross cockpit. Personally, I would not spend the effort or panel space raising the stock vents higher or installing overhead vents. Jim 40134 - Flying Jim "Scooter" McGrew Graduate Student Humans and Automation Lab (http://halab.mit.edu ) Department of Aeronautics and Astronautics Massachusetts Institute of Technology In a message dated 10/3/2006 10:15:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, deemsdavis@cox.net writes: --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis For those of you that are flying or for those of you that have spent some time in one of the transition aircraft. How would you assess the need/desirability of overhead fresh-air vents? I've read comments that the standard Van's vents provide an abundance of air, however most of it is aimed to low (gonad refrigerant). If the Naca Vents were ducted to provide fresh air to the pilot/copilot face/head/trunk from a little higher on the instrument panel,would the overhead vents still be worth having ? I've got the Cabin cover off and now would be the right time to add something if it's necessary, If it's not that's one modification I'd be happy to forgo. Deems Davis # 406 Panel/Finishing http://deemsrv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:50 AM PST US From: Rick Subject: RE: RV10-List: Priming in a confined space --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick John, So what is the procedure THIS year....ground wire connected to ground first or aircraft first. It seemed the first point connect would change every year. FWIW, a headphone jack makes a nice grounding point in the exterior. Rick S. 40185 do not archive -----Original Message----- >From: "John W. Cox" >Sent: Oct 3, 2006 9:20 PM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Priming in a confined space > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" > >Two years ago Hoyt Fleming (Boise - N727TF)the proud owner of a newly >painted experimental was having some touch-up done on one wing. The >Painter (a true professional and veteran) had correctly drained the wing >tank. Unfortunately, like so many experimental guys, he does not >regularly ground the aircraft in the hangar. Secondly, he left the tank >cap ajar. Third, he should have noticed when the hair on his arm began >to raise that the low humidity and friction from sanding was creating >static. The ensuing combustion was quickly extinguished but the >internal tank began burning (smoldering) at the wing root. > >Final outcome, the engine went to another builder, the rest was toast. >Want to take bets on how many of you guys working canopies aren't >regularly grounded? Be safe, ground it from the beginning and continue >the good habit. > >The Turbanator > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint >Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 5:36 AM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Priming in a confined space > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" > >Better yet, just go in there to paint with a lit cigarette and no mask >and >get it over with. "Too much hastle, this airplane building stuff!" >Just go >out and buy a Cessna. Oh, wait...I mean...OK, go with the other >suggestions >after all. > >Do not archive. > >Jesse Saint >I-TEC, Inc. >jesse@itecusa.org >www.itecusa.org >W: 352-465-4545 >C: 352-427-0285 > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen >Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 3:54 AM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Priming in a confined space > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" > >Also, brush-less exhaust fan. > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick >Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 5:44 PM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Priming in a confined space > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick > >Not only the heater but the WATER HEATER if it is in your >garage....pilot >light in there and the WHOOSH as it kicks off to reheat may be the last >thing you hear. > >Rick S. >40185 > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Larry Rosen >>Sent: Oct 2, 2006 4:44 PM >>To: rv10-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Priming in a confined space >> >>--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen >> >>A supplied air respirator makes all the difference in the world. I >>started with a dual carbon filter respirator and for Xmas I got a hobby > >>air. The first time I used supplied air I didn't even know there were >>any fumes in the garage. I could not smell a thing. I cannot say the >>same for the carbon filter respirator. A local RV-9 builder uses the >>exhaust from a shop vac (cleaned of course) to supply breathing air, >>and it works well. >> >>I use Tim's method to keep the room safe from an explosion. Heat it >>up, turn off the heater. Paint away with an exhaust fan, and then open > >>up the garage doors to let the fumes escape. >> >>Larry Rosen >>#356 >> >>Les Kearney wrote: >>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Les Kearney >>> >>> Hi >>> As part of my self education process I have been reading various >>> links for priming info. >>> >>> I noticed that many people print outside on sunny, warm days - an >>> option I won't have in the winter when its -20C and snowing. >>> >>> That being said, how does one *safely* prime in a heated garage. By >>> safely I mean that I want to have a fuel air explosion caused by my >>> natural gas garage heater as well as avoid growing a third arm due to >toxic fumes. >>> >>> Inquiring minds need to know .... >>> >>> Les Kearney >>> RV10 Wannabe >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > >-- > > >-- > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:58 AM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: grounding .... was Priming in a confined space --> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters Rick wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick > >John, > >So what is the procedure THIS year....ground wire connected to ground first or aircraft first. It seemed the first point connect would change every year. FWIW, a headphone jack makes a nice grounding point in the exterior. > >Rick S. >40185 > >do not archive > The headphone jack is a great idea Rick!!! Wish I'd thought of that!!! When refueling, just wear your headset (you'll need a long headset extender cord) and take the ground clamp next to the pump and clip it on your earring (or nose ring whichever you have ...... but no lip rings ..... you'll hate that 'metallic' taste). This will work a whole lot better if you play your favorite music while you're fueling. Depending on how much fuel you need, you might be able to get through two songs before you hop back in the airplane!!! Linn ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:13 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" --> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Epoxy also has a tendency to let go of polyester parts after a while and I believe the canopy is made from polyester resin. But I could be wrong as I haven't seen my canopy in over a month. I need to get my new workshop done! Michael Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 2:54 PM Subject: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis I've got the cabin cover off prior to match drilling it to the Fuse and figured this would be a good time to smooth out the "varicous veins" left from the vacum bagging and to otherwise sand and fill the depressions/hills and valleys to make for a more ascethetic interior appearance. I merrily began this process using Bondo for the deeper 'valleys' and a product called 'Icing' for the more shallow. John 'The Turbinator" Cox who monitors this grasshoppers progress to keep me from wandering too far afield from 'acceptable' practices. Noted what I was doing and in an offline e-mail diplomatically informed me that both of the 2 products I was using have histories of shrinking after 18-24 months of use, and particularly when exposed to high (120F) temps. >:o ! He sent me some pictures from some Lancair projects to dramatically demonstrate the results. So my question is: What 'aircraft grade' filler are people using? And where did you obtain it from? I'd appreciate hearing experience particularly from anybody that's already solved this problem. The application I'm using it for, is definitely Non Structural, and cosmetic only, so I don't need/want to use flox, epoxy and micro takes too long to set up to be able to sand. as I'm finding that it takes many many coats/layers of filler to get a smooth surface. Let the games begin Deems Davis # 406 Panel/Finishing http://deemsrv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:05 AM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters Most likely the canopy is acrylic. Linn RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" > >Epoxy also has a tendency to let go of polyester parts after a while and >I believe the canopy is made from polyester resin. But I could be wrong >as I haven't seen my canopy in over a month. I need to get my new >workshop done! > >Michael >Do not archive > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis >Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 2:54 PM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis > >I've got the cabin cover off prior to match drilling it to the Fuse and >figured this would be a good time to smooth out the "varicous veins" >left from the vacum bagging and to otherwise sand and fill the >depressions/hills and valleys to make for a more ascethetic interior >appearance. I merrily began this process using Bondo for the deeper >'valleys' and a product called 'Icing' for the more shallow. John 'The >Turbinator" Cox who monitors this grasshoppers progress to keep me from >wandering too far afield from 'acceptable' practices. Noted what I was >doing and in an offline e-mail diplomatically informed me that both of >the 2 products I was using have histories of shrinking after 18-24 >months of use, and particularly when exposed to high (120F) temps. >:o ! >He sent me some pictures from some Lancair projects to dramatically >demonstrate the results. > >So my question is: What 'aircraft grade' filler are people using? And >where did you obtain it from? I'd appreciate hearing experience >particularly from anybody that's already solved this problem. The >application I'm using it for, is definitely Non Structural, and cosmetic >only, so I don't need/want to use flox, epoxy and micro takes too long >to set up to be able to sand. as I'm finding that it takes many many >coats/layers of filler to get a smooth surface. > >Let the games begin > >Deems Davis # 406 >Panel/Finishing >http://deemsrv10.com/ > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:32 AM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: QB Wings and Standard Fuselage --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" You would have to talk to Van's for sure, but you would need to go ahead and order the QB wings and have them ship the spar center sections with your fuse. You can't do almost anything on the fuse without the center sections, which are shipped with the wing kit. Give Van's a call and they can explain everything you need to know. Do not archive. Jesse Saint I-TEC, Inc. jesse@itecusa.org www.itecusa.org W: 352-465-4545 C: 352-427-0285 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Wellenzohn Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 8:47 AM Subject: RV10-List: QB Wings and Standard Fuselage --> RV10-List message posted by: "Michael Wellenzohn" Hello everybody, I am starting soon with the tailcone so its time to order the next kit parts. Is ist possible to order the QB wings and have the standard fuselage shipped first (without the ) so that I can still keep on building without having to wait until the Wings are ready. If Wings and Fuse would be delivered at the same time I'd face some space problems. Any experience out there in the community? Cheers Michael #40511 http://www.wellenzohn.net -------- RV-10 builder #511 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65693#65693 -- -- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:22 AM PST US From: "John Gonzalez" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" People need to agree on what we are calling each item, windscreen/windshield, cabin top /roof/canopy? I don't know what you folks are referring to. My Glider has a canopy made completely out of acrylic, plexi glass with an epoxy frame. The 10's cabin top I hope is made from epoxy resin, but I am not certain because unlike the epoxies I've worked with, this large part has a green hue which is more typical of polyester resins that I have used. I don't think Van's would use polyester in such an important part as there is much more shrinkage with polyester, but we need to know! As we all know, epoxy filler doesn't stick too well to polyester parts, but polyester fillers do stick to epoxy parts. I will make a very strong suggestion for a polyester based filler product. US chemical makes a super lightweight, sands in 15 minutes or less and is strong and works great with sandable polyester primers. US chemicals--Split Second go to: http://www.uschem.com/products/index.html click on USC,Morton,Cargroom products, then to professional putties and then find Split Second. I faired in my nose and canopy of my sailplane a few years ago and did all the work and painted it with a matched color of automotive paint and wet sanded and polished the juction and it is holding up great and you can't see any difference from the original paint. JOhn G. 409 >From: linn Walters >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I >Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 10:05:50 -0400 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters > >Most likely the canopy is acrylic. >Linn > >RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: > >>--> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" >> >> >>Epoxy also has a tendency to let go of polyester parts after a while and >>I believe the canopy is made from polyester resin. But I could be wrong >>as I haven't seen my canopy in over a month. I need to get my new >>workshop done! >> >>Michael >>Do not archive >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis >>Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 2:54 PM >>To: rv10-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I >> >>--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis >> >>I've got the cabin cover off prior to match drilling it to the Fuse and >>figured this would be a good time to smooth out the "varicous veins" left >>from the vacum bagging and to otherwise sand and fill the >>depressions/hills and valleys to make for a more ascethetic interior >>appearance. I merrily began this process using Bondo for the deeper >>'valleys' and a product called 'Icing' for the more shallow. John 'The >>Turbinator" Cox who monitors this grasshoppers progress to keep me from >>wandering too far afield from 'acceptable' practices. Noted what I was >>doing and in an offline e-mail diplomatically informed me that both of >>the 2 products I was using have histories of shrinking after 18-24 >>months of use, and particularly when exposed to high (120F) temps. >:o ! >>He sent me some pictures from some Lancair projects to dramatically >>demonstrate the results. >> >>So my question is: What 'aircraft grade' filler are people using? And >>where did you obtain it from? I'd appreciate hearing experience >>particularly from anybody that's already solved this problem. The >>application I'm using it for, is definitely Non Structural, and cosmetic >>only, so I don't need/want to use flox, epoxy and micro takes too long >>to set up to be able to sand. as I'm finding that it takes many many >>coats/layers of filler to get a smooth surface. >> >>Let the games begin >> >>Deems Davis # 406 >>Panel/Finishing >>http://deemsrv10.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:15 AM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" It's my understanding that epoxy resin will stick/bond to polyester but not the other way around. Do Not Archive KABONG "As we all know, epoxy filler doesn't stick too well to polyester parts, but > polyester fillers do stick to epoxy parts." ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Gonzalez" Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:42 AM PST US From: "Jae Chang" Subject: RV10-List: Fuel tank return fuel line --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" Does anyone think adding a return fuel line to the fuel tanks, is a bad idea? I have seen -7 builder logs add this addition, but not any -10 builders, yet. If it's a worthwhile task, I notice that the fuel tank ribs have 2 small identically sized holes for snapbushings on the top side of the rib, right below the rib's top flange. The forward-most hole is designated in the plans for the vent line. However, was there any initial intention for the rear-most hole? As far as I can tell, it looks like it is ignored. Do you foresee any problems using this existing rear-most hole for putting in snapbushings to hold a fuel-return line? The only new hole I would need to drill then is in the T-1003B end rib to hold the AN hardware. Do you foresee any problems putting a hole in the end rib similar to the fuel tank ribs? Thanks for the feedback, Jae ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:33 AM PST US From: "Jae Chang" Subject: RV10-List: Al fuel vent line cutting --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" Another quickie question, is it kosher to use a home depot plumbing pipe cutter, for cutting the Al tubes for the fuel vent lines for instance? I guess I still need to buy something like the Parker Flaring Tool to flare the ends? http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?PRODUCT_ID=212FB&ReturnPage=/shop/ flyer.aspx?PageNo=1 Thanks again, Jae ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:54 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I From: "Vern W. Smith" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Vern W. Smith" For what it is worth, I called Van's and was told the cabin roof is an epoxy lay-up. Vern Smith(40324) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN STARN Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 8:52 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" It's my understanding that epoxy resin will stick/bond to polyester but not the other way around. Do Not Archive KABONG "As we all know, epoxy filler doesn't stick too well to polyester parts, but > polyester fillers do stick to epoxy parts." ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Gonzalez" Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:51 AM PST US From: Jeff Carpenter Subject: RV10-List: Flap Trailing Edge --> RV10-List message posted by: Jeff Carpenter Hello Fellow Builders... I've got my flaps all clecoed up and drilled out and notice that my flap skins... both skins on both flaps come up 1/16" short of the trailing edge wedge. This was not the case with my rudder trailing edge, where the skins actually extended a fraction beyond the end of the wedge. Have others experienced this? I'm thinking that my trailing edge wedges might have been mis- punched... probably a lot more likely than all 4 skins being off. Jeff Carpenter 40304 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:16 AM PST US From: Rick Subject: Re: RV10-List: Al fuel vent line cutting --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick Jae, A good tubing cutter is worth the extra dollars spent. The small Rigid cutter has good bearing rollers and fine threads for better cutter feed. The cheaper models will not make as clean of a cut and tend to bevel the edge a bit too much. I picked mine up at Homedepot for about $25. I also have a Parker Rotoflare, hard to swallow price but works perfect. Be advised that if you lend it out you will need it the next day...Speaking of which Mr. Kaufmann...I need my Rotoflare back. Make sure your using the 37 degree flaring tool for AN fittings. Rick S. 40185 -----Original Message----- >From: Jae Chang >Sent: Oct 4, 2006 12:55 PM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV10-List: Al fuel vent line cutting > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" > >Another quickie question, is it kosher to use a home depot plumbing pipe cutter, >for cutting the Al tubes for the fuel vent lines for instance? > >I guess I still need to buy something like the Parker Flaring Tool to flare the >ends? > >http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?PRODUCT_ID=212FB&ReturnPage=/shop/ >flyer.aspx?PageNo=1 > >Thanks again, >Jae > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:16 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Al fuel vent line cutting From: "egohr1" --> RV10-List message posted by: "egohr1" Any good quality tubing cutter will work. I suggest 2, a standard for using in the open and a close quarters cutter. Both availble at Home Depot and Lowes Aviation supply. The parker tool is required for the flare, do noty use a auto parts flaring tool, as the flare angle is wrong. -------- eric gohr EGOHR86@alumni.carnegiemellon.edu Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65772#65772 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:39 AM PST US From: Rick Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flap Trailing Edge --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick Mine were the same way, more like a 1/32 though. My rudder was perfectly flush. Rick S. 40185 -----Original Message----- >From: Jeff Carpenter >Sent: Oct 4, 2006 1:05 PM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV10-List: Flap Trailing Edge > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Jeff Carpenter > >Hello Fellow Builders... > >I've got my flaps all clecoed up and drilled out and notice that my >flap skins... both skins on both flaps come up 1/16" short of the >trailing edge wedge. This was not the case with my rudder trailing >edge, where the skins actually extended a fraction beyond the end of >the wedge. Have others experienced this? > >I'm thinking that my trailing edge wedges might have been mis- >punched... probably a lot more likely than all 4 skins being off. > >Jeff Carpenter >40304 > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:14 AM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel tank return fuel line --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis Jae adding a return line could be an excellent addition. Depending upon which engine installation you decide upon. e.g. the AFP fuel injection system have a purge valve to assist hot starts/vapor lock conditions. Eggenfellner requires one for continuous return of unused fuel. It's an easy addition that you can always stub off if not needed. Adding it later will be more difficult (ask me how I know). I found and bought a 'bung' from one of the RV parts suppliers that can be riveted to the end rib and is already machined for the An fitting. Deems Davis # 406 Panel/Finishing http://deemsrv10.com/ Jae Chang wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" > >Does anyone think adding a return fuel line to the fuel tanks, is a bad idea? I >have seen -7 builder logs add this addition, but not any -10 builders, yet. > >If it's a worthwhile task, I notice that the fuel tank ribs have 2 small >identically sized holes for snapbushings on the top side of the rib, right below >the rib's top flange. The forward-most hole is designated in the plans for the >vent line. However, was there any initial intention for the rear-most hole? As >far as I can tell, it looks like it is ignored. > >Do you foresee any problems using this existing rear-most hole for putting in >snapbushings to hold a fuel-return line? > >The only new hole I would need to drill then is in the T-1003B end rib to hold >the AN hardware. Do you foresee any problems putting a hole in the end rib >similar to the fuel tank ribs? > >Thanks for the feedback, >Jae > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:39 AM PST US From: "John Gonzalez" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" John, My understanding is that polyester resins form a wax coating during cure. Polyester resin will bond to polyester after a cure has taken place without need for mechanical roughening of the surface or chemical cleaning, a chemical bond occurs and the cured polyester resin gets infiltrated by the fresh polyester resin. Epoxy on the other hand, will not stick to epoxy unless it is either still in the tack phase or has completely cured, but then been mechanically roughened my sanding. Epoxy will stick to polyester resin provided it has been thoughly cleaned with solvents and sanded or other form of mechanical retension made. But the cleaning issue leaves a question of just how clean and how strong the bond is. Please let me know if I have this backward because this has been my belief for some time from the text which I used in developing my understanding of composites. Please no more wars, I'm broke and I have more more aggression left. John G. 409 >From: "JOHN STARN" >To: >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I >Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:52:19 -0700 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" > >It's my understanding that epoxy resin will stick/bond to polyester but not >the other way around. >Do Not Archive KABONG > > "As we all know, epoxy filler doesn't stick too well to polyester parts, >but >>polyester fillers do stick to epoxy parts." > >----- Original Message ----- From: "John Gonzalez" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:56 AM >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I > > >> > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:43 AM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel tank return fuel line --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" Can you tell me what a "bung" is and maybe show a picture of your install? John J do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 10:34 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel tank return fuel line --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis Jae adding a return line could be an excellent addition. Depending upon which engine installation you decide upon. e.g. the AFP fuel injection system have a purge valve to assist hot starts/vapor lock conditions. Eggenfellner requires one for continuous return of unused fuel. It's an easy addition that you can always stub off if not needed. Adding it later will be more difficult (ask me how I know). I found and bought a 'bung' from one of the RV parts suppliers that can be riveted to the end rib and is already machined for the An fitting. Deems Davis # 406 Panel/Finishing http://deemsrv10.com/ Jae Chang wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" >--> > >Does anyone think adding a return fuel line to the fuel tanks, is a bad >idea? I have seen -7 builder logs add this addition, but not any -10 builders, yet. > >If it's a worthwhile task, I notice that the fuel tank ribs have 2 >small identically sized holes for snapbushings on the top side of the >rib, right below the rib's top flange. The forward-most hole is >designated in the plans for the vent line. However, was there any >initial intention for the rear-most hole? As far as I can tell, it looks like it is ignored. > >Do you foresee any problems using this existing rear-most hole for >putting in snapbushings to hold a fuel-return line? > >The only new hole I would need to drill then is in the T-1003B end rib >to hold the AN hardware. Do you foresee any problems putting a hole in >the end rib similar to the fuel tank ribs? > >Thanks for the feedback, >Jae > > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:28 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" --> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Actually the canopy/cabin lid/top/fiberglass looking thingy isn't in an RV-10 but the windscreen and windows are. ;-) Do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:06 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters --> Most likely the canopy is acrylic. Linn RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" >--> > >Epoxy also has a tendency to let go of polyester parts after a while >and I believe the canopy is made from polyester resin. But I could be >wrong as I haven't seen my canopy in over a month. I need to get my >new workshop done! > >Michael >Do not archive > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis >Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 2:54 PM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis > >I've got the cabin cover off prior to match drilling it to the Fuse and >figured this would be a good time to smooth out the "varicous veins" >left from the vacum bagging and to otherwise sand and fill the >depressions/hills and valleys to make for a more ascethetic interior >appearance. I merrily began this process using Bondo for the deeper >'valleys' and a product called 'Icing' for the more shallow. John 'The >Turbinator" Cox who monitors this grasshoppers progress to keep me from >wandering too far afield from 'acceptable' practices. Noted what I was >doing and in an offline e-mail diplomatically informed me that both of >the 2 products I was using have histories of shrinking after 18-24 >months of use, and particularly when exposed to high (120F) temps. >:o ! >He sent me some pictures from some Lancair projects to dramatically >demonstrate the results. > >So my question is: What 'aircraft grade' filler are people using? And >where did you obtain it from? I'd appreciate hearing experience >particularly from anybody that's already solved this problem. The >application I'm using it for, is definitely Non Structural, and >cosmetic only, so I don't need/want to use flox, epoxy and micro takes >too long to set up to be able to sand. as I'm finding that it takes >many many coats/layers of filler to get a smooth surface. > >Let the games begin > >Deems Davis # 406 >Panel/Finishing >http://deemsrv10.com/ > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:52 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" --> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Canopy's are generally something that goes over something, normally your head. Like Big Top canopy or tree canopy. Really, did anyone actually not know what we were talking about? :) I know the tips and other fairings are epoxy. Probably need to check with Van's crappy fiberglass guy to find out for sure. I wish I could recall if it's made out of polyester or not but I could swear that it is. Also, James products like the cowl and plenum are polyester. Michael Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:57 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" --> People need to agree on what we are calling each item, windscreen/windshield, cabin top /roof/canopy? I don't know what you folks are referring to. My Glider has a canopy made completely out of acrylic, plexi glass with an epoxy frame. The 10's cabin top I hope is made from epoxy resin, but I am not certain because unlike the epoxies I've worked with, this large part has a green hue which is more typical of polyester resins that I have used. I don't think Van's would use polyester in such an important part as there is much more shrinkage with polyester, but we need to know! As we all know, epoxy filler doesn't stick too well to polyester parts, but polyester fillers do stick to epoxy parts. I will make a very strong suggestion for a polyester based filler product. US chemical makes a super lightweight, sands in 15 minutes or less and is strong and works great with sandable polyester primers. US chemicals--Split Second go to: http://www.uschem.com/products/index.html click on USC,Morton,Cargroom products, then to professional putties and then find Split Second. I faired in my nose and canopy of my sailplane a few years ago and did all the work and painted it with a matched color of automotive paint and wet sanded and polished the juction and it is holding up great and you can't see any difference from the original paint. JOhn G. 409 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:04 AM PST US From: "John Gonzalez" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" I thought the windows get fit from the outside, so technically that are not in the RV10 either. >From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" >To: >Subject: RE: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I >Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 13:15:01 -0500 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" > > >Actually the canopy/cabin lid/top/fiberglass looking thingy isn't in an >RV-10 but the windscreen and windows are. ;-) > >Do not archive. > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters >Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:06 AM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I > >--> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters >--> > >Most likely the canopy is acrylic. >Linn > >RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: > > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" > >--> > > > >Epoxy also has a tendency to let go of polyester parts after a while > >and I believe the canopy is made from polyester resin. But I could be > >wrong as I haven't seen my canopy in over a month. I need to get my > >new workshop done! > > > >Michael > >Do not archive > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis > >Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 2:54 PM > >To: rv10-list@matronics.com > >Subject: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I > > > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis > > > >I've got the cabin cover off prior to match drilling it to the Fuse and > > >figured this would be a good time to smooth out the "varicous veins" > >left from the vacum bagging and to otherwise sand and fill the > >depressions/hills and valleys to make for a more ascethetic interior > >appearance. I merrily began this process using Bondo for the deeper > >'valleys' and a product called 'Icing' for the more shallow. John 'The > >Turbinator" Cox who monitors this grasshoppers progress to keep me from > > >wandering too far afield from 'acceptable' practices. Noted what I was > >doing and in an offline e-mail diplomatically informed me that both of > >the 2 products I was using have histories of shrinking after 18-24 > >months of use, and particularly when exposed to high (120F) temps. >:o >! > >He sent me some pictures from some Lancair projects to dramatically > >demonstrate the results. > > > >So my question is: What 'aircraft grade' filler are people using? And > >where did you obtain it from? I'd appreciate hearing experience > >particularly from anybody that's already solved this problem. The > >application I'm using it for, is definitely Non Structural, and > >cosmetic only, so I don't need/want to use flox, epoxy and micro takes > > >too long to set up to be able to sand. as I'm finding that it takes > >many many coats/layers of filler to get a smooth surface. > > > >Let the games begin > > > >Deems Davis # 406 > >Panel/Finishing > >http://deemsrv10.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:33 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Al fuel vent line cutting --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson As for the cutting, I personally don't use any special cutter...just a nice one from the hardware store. But, I do run the tube end over the scotchbrite wheel and then deburr the inside and outside slightly before I use the rolo-flare tool. You really need to watch for defects on that edge to prevent cracks when flaring. Funny you said that about loaning the RoloFlare tool. I loaned mine out after I was flying, but sure as shinola I soon found out I needed it and had to wait until I could finally (a week or more later) get it back from the guy. Now you know what I just buy tools instead of borrow. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Rick wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick > > Jae, > > A good tubing cutter is worth the extra dollars spent. The small > Rigid cutter has good bearing rollers and fine threads for better > cutter feed. The cheaper models will not make as clean of a cut and > tend to bevel the edge a bit too much. I picked mine up at Homedepot > for about $25. I also have a Parker Rotoflare, hard to swallow price > but works perfect. Be advised that if you lend it out you will need > it the next day...Speaking of which Mr. Kaufmann...I need my > Rotoflare back. > > Make sure your using the 37 degree flaring tool for AN fittings. > > Rick S. 40185 > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Jae Chang Sent: Oct 4, 2006 >> 12:55 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: Al fuel >> vent line cutting >> >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" >> >> >> Another quickie question, is it kosher to use a home depot plumbing >> pipe cutter, for cutting the Al tubes for the fuel vent lines for >> instance? >> >> I guess I still need to buy something like the Parker Flaring Tool >> to flare the ends? >> >> http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?PRODUCT_ID=212FB&ReturnPage=/shop/ >> flyer.aspx?PageNo=1 >> >> Thanks again, Jae >> >> >> >> >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:56 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel tank return fuel line --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I agree with Deems. I don't have any need for a return line right now, but it sure would be a pain to add. I think if I were doing my tanks again I'd probably add a bulkhead fitting slathered in proseal and capped on the outside. That way if you ever need a return port you have all the plumbing installed. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Deems Davis wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis > > Jae adding a return line could be an excellent addition. Depending upon > which engine installation you decide upon. e.g. the AFP fuel injection > system have a purge valve to assist hot starts/vapor lock conditions. > Eggenfellner requires one for continuous return of unused fuel. It's an > easy addition that you can always stub off if not needed. Adding it > later will be more difficult (ask me how I know). I found and bought a > 'bung' from one of the RV parts suppliers that can be riveted to the end > rib and is already machined for the An fitting. > > Deems Davis # 406 > Panel/Finishing > http://deemsrv10.com/ > > Jae Chang wrote: > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" >> >> >> Does anyone think adding a return fuel line to the fuel tanks, is a >> bad idea? I >> have seen -7 builder logs add this addition, but not any -10 builders, >> yet. >> >> If it's a worthwhile task, I notice that the fuel tank ribs have 2 small >> identically sized holes for snapbushings on the top side of the rib, >> right below >> the rib's top flange. The forward-most hole is designated in the plans >> for the >> vent line. However, was there any initial intention for the rear-most >> hole? As >> far as I can tell, it looks like it is ignored. >> >> Do you foresee any problems using this existing rear-most hole for >> putting in >> snapbushings to hold a fuel-return line? >> >> The only new hole I would need to drill then is in the T-1003B end rib >> to hold >> the AN hardware. Do you foresee any problems putting a hole in the end >> rib >> similar to the fuel tank ribs? >> >> Thanks for the feedback, >> Jae >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:27 PM PST US From: Jeff Carpenter Subject: RV10-List: Life Insurance --> RV10-List message posted by: Jeff Carpenter My life insurance policy excludes coverage for death in, around or even while looking at a small plane. I'm about to ante up for a new policy without the aviation exclusion. The premium is about 50% higher than what I currently have. Before I take the plunge, does anyone know of another means of getting coverage... perhaps for flying only... that I've overlooked. Jeff Carpenter 40304 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:39 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Life Insurance From: "Jeffery J. Morgan" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jeffery J. Morgan" Prudential seems to not mind and has very competitive rates. I also scuba dive and was flagged as a daredevil. :) Anyway, they are cheaper than most that I found and reasonable about activities. If you need an agent, email off list and I can send you mine. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 2:02 PM Subject: RV10-List: Life Insurance --> RV10-List message posted by: Jeff Carpenter My life insurance policy excludes coverage for death in, around or even while looking at a small plane. I'm about to ante up for a new policy without the aviation exclusion. The premium is about 50% higher than what I currently have. Before I take the plunge, does anyone know of another means of getting coverage... perhaps for flying only... that I've overlooked. Jeff Carpenter 40304 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Life Insurance From: Dj Merrill --> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Jeff Carpenter wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Jeff Carpenter > > My life insurance policy excludes coverage for death in, around or > even while looking at a small plane. I'm about to ante up for a new > policy without the aviation exclusion. The premium is about 50% > higher than what I currently have. Before I take the plunge, does > anyone know of another means of getting coverage... perhaps for flying > only... that I've overlooked. > I went through Minnesota Life for my life insurance - they have an aviation policy. I think they are associated with the AOPA program if I remember correctly. -Dj ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:17 PM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel tank return fuel line --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" Has anyone on the list done this and could send pics or a link to their site? John Jessen #40328 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 11:47 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel tank return fuel line --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson I agree with Deems. I don't have any need for a return line right now, but it sure would be a pain to add. I think if I were doing my tanks again I'd probably add a bulkhead fitting slathered in proseal and capped on the outside. That way if you ever need a return port you have all the plumbing installed. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Deems Davis wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis > > Jae adding a return line could be an excellent addition. Depending > upon which engine installation you decide upon. e.g. the AFP fuel > injection system have a purge valve to assist hot starts/vapor lock conditions. > Eggenfellner requires one for continuous return of unused fuel. It's > an easy addition that you can always stub off if not needed. Adding it > later will be more difficult (ask me how I know). I found and bought a > 'bung' from one of the RV parts suppliers that can be riveted to the > end rib and is already machined for the An fitting. > > Deems Davis # 406 > Panel/Finishing > http://deemsrv10.com/ > > Jae Chang wrote: > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" >> >> >> Does anyone think adding a return fuel line to the fuel tanks, is a >> bad idea? I have seen -7 builder logs add this addition, but not any >> -10 builders, yet. >> >> If it's a worthwhile task, I notice that the fuel tank ribs have 2 >> small identically sized holes for snapbushings on the top side of the >> rib, right below the rib's top flange. The forward-most hole is >> designated in the plans for the vent line. However, was there any >> initial intention for the rear-most hole? As far as I can tell, it >> looks like it is ignored. >> >> Do you foresee any problems using this existing rear-most hole for >> putting in snapbushings to hold a fuel-return line? >> >> The only new hole I would need to drill then is in the T-1003B end >> rib to hold the AN hardware. Do you foresee any problems putting a >> hole in the end rib similar to the fuel tank ribs? >> >> Thanks for the feedback, >> Jae >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:36 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Al fuel vent line cutting --> RV10-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" Being an "old" plumber, A/C contractor I of course use ONLY Ridged cutters. Three points: #1 make sure the rollers turn freely, #2: Cut slowly, by that I mean go around more times with smaller additions to the tightening wheel. #3: Make sure you have the correct cutting wheel. Yes, Virginia there are different wheels for different materials. Examples: Copper, aluminum, plastic (PVC, ABS etc), stainless steel. If you buy Harbor Freight you'll get what they got, buy Ridged and you have a selection of cutter wheels to choose from. GO SLOW...it will save you time in the long run. KABONG Do Not Archive (GBA & GWB) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 11:45 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Al fuel vent line cutting ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:50 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Al fuel vent line cutting --> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters I like to cut tubing with a fine toothed hack saw. The HD cutters (and all the other 'wheel' cutters) will cold form the tubing, reducing the inside diameter right at the cut. You have to clean that 'rim' out of the tube before flaring. Lot more work than running a good file across the saw-cut end. Linn do not archive Jae Chang wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" > >Another quickie question, is it kosher to use a home depot plumbing pipe cutter, >for cutting the Al tubes for the fuel vent lines for instance? > >I guess I still need to buy something like the Parker Flaring Tool to flare the >ends? > >http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?PRODUCT_ID=212FB&ReturnPage=/shop/ >flyer.aspx?PageNo=1 > >Thanks again, >Jae > > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:26 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Life Insurance I don't carry life insurance. Whe whole idea bothers me. You're betting you're gonna die prematurely, and they're betting you won't. What's wrong with this picture???? My other point of view ..... Look at the payoff value of the policy ...... In todays market, how long would that last if the lifestyle didn't change????? I'd rather use the life insurance premium to buy airplane parts!!! Linn do not archive opinionated crap. Dj Merrill wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill > >Jeff Carpenter wrote: > > >>--> RV10-List message posted by: Jeff Carpenter >> >>My life insurance policy excludes coverage for death in, around or >>even while looking at a small plane. I'm about to ante up for a new >>policy without the aviation exclusion. The premium is about 50% >>higher than what I currently have. Before I take the plunge, does >>anyone know of another means of getting coverage... perhaps for flying >>only... that I've overlooked. >> >> >> > > I went through Minnesota Life for my life insurance - they have an >aviation policy. I think they are associated with the AOPA program if I >remember correctly. > >-Dj > > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:19 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Life Insurance From: Dj Merrill --> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill linn Walters wrote: > > My other point of view ..... Look at the payoff value of the policy > ...... In todays market, how long would that last if the lifestyle > didn't change????? I'd rather use the life insurance premium to buy > airplane parts!!! $400 per year won't buy me a lot of airplane parts, but it will pay off my house and leave a little left over for the loved ones... -Dj do not archive ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:30 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Life Insurance From: "Bobby J. Hughes" --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bobby J. Hughes" Make sure the "Aviation Policy" does not exclude Experimental Aircraft. I believe some do. Bobby 40116 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 2:02 PM Subject: RV10-List: Life Insurance --> RV10-List message posted by: Jeff Carpenter My life insurance policy excludes coverage for death in, around or even while looking at a small plane. I'm about to ante up for a new policy without the aviation exclusion. The premium is about 50% higher than what I currently have. Before I take the plunge, does anyone know of another means of getting coverage... perhaps for flying only... that I've overlooked. Jeff Carpenter 40304 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:39 PM PST US From: "Jae Chang" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Al fuel vent line cutting --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" Thanks for the feedback. I am glad not to have to buy another tool! jae Do not archive ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:56 PM PST US From: "Jae Chang" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel tank return fuel line --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" I asked Van's support the same question and received this response. I had not thought about the venting. I guess I will be cutting a couple new holes then. jae -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: RV-10: Return fuel lines to tank The rear hole lets air vent from one bay to another when the tank is being filled. If it is filled, the tanks will take significantly longer to fill. Better to make a new hole ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:37 PM PST US From: "Paul Walter" Subject: RV10-List: Life insurace I agree that it makes sense to have full life cover. I have chosen to link my life cover with my employer superannuation fund ( in the U.S.A i believe it is called a 401K plan or similar). Here in Australia employers pay a standard contribution of 9% of annual salary received. ( once again i am unsure of employer obligations in the U.S.) My insurance premiums are deducted from these payments as apposed to my bank account. Please do not misunderstand the point im making - I am still paying for life cover it just doesn't have an effect on my monthly cash flow, allowing me to spend premium on my plane. I then inturn monitor the investment performance of my retirement shares and managed funds (mutual funds) with in this investment in order to "claw back" premium expenses. I am fully covered for aviation incidents. ( although I must clarify experimental category as I was only a G.A pilot when policy commenced) You would have to look into this carefully as I do not profess to be an expert on the American retirement planning system. What ever avenue you chose this area needs to be addressed. Paul Walter ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:30 PM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: RV10-List: Het Allen how's the engine? --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis Howdy Allen, If I recall correctly it's about time for my engine to get built, are you still on that schedule? Again, no rush just curious. and I need a few days to get you the balance. I'm leaving tomorrow and will be gone til late sun pm. Best of Luck Deems >* >* > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:11 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Priming in a confined space From: "John W. Cox" --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Fair questions. Would you rather have a spark at the aircraft connection point or at the ground? Your question implies you are one of those who is actually practicing the dark art of pointed hats (with starts and planets affixed) and obsidian rods in their hand. John 40600 Do not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 6:32 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Priming in a confined space --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick John, So what is the procedure THIS year....ground wire connected to ground first or aircraft first. It seemed the first point connect would change every year. FWIW, a headphone jack makes a nice grounding point in the exterior. Rick S. 40185 do not archive ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:38 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I From: "John W. Cox" --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Andy Marshall's book is now in its Seventh Printing "Composite Basics" ISBN 0-9664540-4-9 unfortunately it has gone to Aircraft Technical Books or maybe it's www.buildersbooks.com and is available in either hard copy or PDF. Clearly some out there have no idea which bonds to which and the difference in long-term shrink of polyester vs. epoxy fillers for E glass, S Glass, Graphite, Aramid or other advanced materials. Usually when it comes to composite materials I would conclude the Dentist has the most training at mixing the stuff. For the rest of you read the book, don't guess or jump to conclusions. Or maybe some day Dan Checkoway may become the Composite Guru too. Plastic planes have beaten this subject blue and Van is light years behind the curve. John 40600 Do not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN STARN Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 8:52 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" It's my understanding that epoxy resin will stick/bond to polyester but not the other way around. Do Not Archive KABONG "As we all know, epoxy filler doesn't stick too well to polyester parts, but > polyester fillers do stick to epoxy parts." ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Gonzalez" Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:46 PM PST US From: "bob.kaufmann" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel tank return fuel line --> RV10-List message posted by: "bob.kaufmann" I added a return line to my left tank, because I did not know what engine or injection system I was going to use and thought it would be a good idea to prepare just in case. It can always be capped off if not used. It was easy to put it, and if I need it will be a lot easier than waiting. Bob K Working with the stuff that sands to a fine itching powder. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jae Chang Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 8:53 AM Subject: RV10-List: Fuel tank return fuel line --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" Does anyone think adding a return fuel line to the fuel tanks, is a bad idea? I have seen -7 builder logs add this addition, but not any -10 builders, yet. If it's a worthwhile task, I notice that the fuel tank ribs have 2 small identically sized holes for snapbushings on the top side of the rib, right below the rib's top flange. The forward-most hole is designated in the plans for the vent line. However, was there any initial intention for the rear-most hole? As far as I can tell, it looks like it is ignored. Do you foresee any problems using this existing rear-most hole for putting in snapbushings to hold a fuel-return line? The only new hole I would need to drill then is in the T-1003B end rib to hold the AN hardware. Do you foresee any problems putting a hole in the end rib similar to the fuel tank ribs? Thanks for the feedback, Jae ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:45 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I From: "John W. Cox" --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Everyone knows the value of personal opinion. Read Andy's book. I will forward to you my 10MB PDF file which I archived for posterity. The rest of you need to get up to speed and read. Deem's, I will bring your copy on the 26th. Your post below seems accurate, IMHO. However, Polyester is at the lowest end of the molecular chain. Epoxy is more complex, more reliable, more expensive and therefore the only thing our airline will allow used. Our airline and A&P school brought out silver bullets and crosses if anyone tried to save effort and money by using the less acceptable polyester fillers. Proper preparation is dependent on knowing the substrate, knowing about cohesion, adhesion and the difference of glue, adhesive and the like. Andy's book is enjoyable reading. I forwarded to Deem's the actual pictures of three Lancairs who chose unwisely. Ground yours if you chose less wisely. Now here is a reasonable question? If you ever try to repair a VANS canopy how will you know if it's E glass, S glass, epoxy, how many BID and which adhesive to use. What is the Warp clock layout per BID? Which method is recommended for proper wetting? Riveting is so much more Black & White. Focus your aggression back on whipping those building tasks ahead. I hear everyone loves to fly the finished item regardless of this banter. John C. 600 ($00.02) Do not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 11:01 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" John, My understanding is that polyester resins form a wax coating during cure. Polyester resin will bond to polyester after a cure has taken place without need for mechanical roughening of the surface or chemical cleaning, a chemical bond occurs and the cured polyester resin gets infiltrated by the fresh polyester resin. Epoxy on the other hand, will not stick to epoxy unless it is either still in the tack phase or has completely cured, but then been mechanically roughened my sanding. Epoxy will stick to polyester resin provided it has been thoughly cleaned with solvents and sanded or other form of mechanical retension made. But the cleaning issue leaves a question of just how clean and how strong the bond is. Please let me know if I have this backward because this has been my belief for some time from the text which I used in developing my understanding of composites. Please no more wars, I'm broke and I have more more aggression left. John G. 409 >From: "JOHN STARN" >To: >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I >Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:52:19 -0700 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" > >It's my understanding that epoxy resin will stick/bond to polyester but not >the other way around. >Do Not Archive KABONG > > "As we all know, epoxy filler doesn't stick too well to polyester parts, >but >>polyester fillers do stick to epoxy parts." > >----- Original Message ----- From: "John Gonzalez" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:56 AM >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I > > >> > > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:56 PM PST US From: Larry Rosen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Het Allen how's the engine? --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen Hay Deems, while you are at it would you send Allen by balance also. It sure would help me out. ;-) Do not archive Deems Davis wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis > > Howdy Allen, If I recall correctly it's about time for my engine to > get built, are you still on that schedule? Again, no rush just > curious. and I need a few days to get you the balance. I'm leaving > tomorrow and will be gone til late sun pm. > > Best of Luck > > Deems > > >> * >> * >> > > ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:56 PM PST US From: "John Hasbrouck" Subject: RV10-List: rear seat shoulder harness attach Not to interrupt the primer/filler discussion but I'd like to ask if everyone/anyone is using the longeron attach points for the rear seat shoulder harness or mounting to a hard point on the cabin top? BTW: Dentists have'nt mixed composite for years, Comes ready to use, sans air bubbles that were introduced by the mixing process. The curing reaction is initiated by light. Something to do with peroxide, free radicals etc. etc. Thought you might like to know. John Hasbrouck #40264 ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:09 PM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: RV10-List: Oops --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis Oop's ,this was obviously supposed to go direct to Allen Barrett, I've spent too much time on the keyboard today, need to go aout and do some more sanding. :-[ Do No Archive Deems ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:29 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I From: "McGANN, Ron" Guys, Hate to state the obvious, but any reason why we would not follow the guidelines in Plans Section 5T (particularly 'Prepping the Cowling for Paint') for all of the glass work?? Unless there is a compelling reason not to, this is what I have planned for the lid (this coming weekend). cheers, Ron -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of gary Sent: Wednesday, 4 October 2006 9:19 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: "gary" For those of you new to composits there are two products that you should not be without. Superfil by Poly-Fiber and UV Smooth Prime Filler. The first is a body filler but it is light weight and sands easily. It goes on easy and comes off easy. This is a must, for get the bondo. The second is for pin holes in the composits. It to works great. Both are pricy but as they say you get what you pay for. Spruce has both of them. Gary 40274 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 3:54 PM Subject: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis I've got the cabin cover off prior to match drilling it to the Fuse and figured this would be a good time to smooth out the "varicous veins" left from the vacum bagging and to otherwise sand and fill the depressions/hills and valleys to make for a more ascethetic interior appearance. I merrily began this process using Bondo for the deeper 'valleys' and a product called 'Icing' for the more shallow. John 'The Turbinator" Cox who monitors this grasshoppers progress to keep me from wandering too far afield from 'acceptable' practices. Noted what I was doing and in an offline e-mail diplomatically informed me that both of the 2 products I was using have histories of shrinking after 18-24 months of use, and particularly when exposed to high (120F) temps. >:o ! He sent me some pictures from some Lancair projects to dramatically demonstrate the results. So my question is: What 'aircraft grade' filler are people using? And where did you obtain it from? I'd appreciate hearing experience particularly from anybody that's already solved this problem. The application I'm using it for, is definitely Non Structural, and cosmetic only, so I don't need/want to use flox, epoxy and micro takes too long to set up to be able to sand. as I'm finding that it takes many many coats/layers of filler to get a smooth surface. Let the games begin Deems Davis # 406 Panel/Finishing http://deemsrv10.com/ ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:35 PM PST US From: "Marcus Cooper" Subject: RE: RV10-List: rear seat shoulder harness attach Longeron attach points in my machine. Marcus 40286 _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hasbrouck Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:17 PM Subject: RV10-List: rear seat shoulder harness attach Not to interrupt the primer/filler discussion but I'd like to ask if everyone/anyone is using the longeron attach points for the rear seat shoulder harness or mounting to a hard point on the cabin top? BTW: Dentists have'nt mixed composite for years, Comes ready to use, sans air bubbles that were introduced by the mixing process. The curing reaction is initiated by light. Something to do with peroxide, free radicals etc. etc. Thought you might like to know. John Hasbrouck #40264 ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:37 PM PST US From: "bob.kaufmann" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: "bob.kaufmann" ROFLMAO Bob K -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 4:40 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" Everyone knows the value of personal opinion. Read Andy's book. I will forward to you my 10MB PDF file which I archived for posterity. The rest of you need to get up to speed and read. Deem's, I will bring your copy on the 26th. Your post below seems accurate, IMHO. However, Polyester is at the lowest end of the molecular chain. Epoxy is more complex, more reliable, more expensive and therefore the only thing our airline will allow used. Our airline and A&P school brought out silver bullets and crosses if anyone tried to save effort and money by using the less acceptable polyester fillers. Proper preparation is dependent on knowing the substrate, knowing about cohesion, adhesion and the difference of glue, adhesive and the like. Andy's book is enjoyable reading. I forwarded to Deem's the actual pictures of three Lancairs who chose unwisely. Ground yours if you chose less wisely. Now here is a reasonable question? If you ever try to repair a VANS canopy how will you know if it's E glass, S glass, epoxy, how many BID and which adhesive to use. What is the Warp clock layout per BID? Which method is recommended for proper wetting? Riveting is so much more Black & White. Focus your aggression back on whipping those building tasks ahead. I hear everyone loves to fly the finished item regardless of this banter. John C. 600 ($00.02) Do not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 11:01 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" John, My understanding is that polyester resins form a wax coating during cure. Polyester resin will bond to polyester after a cure has taken place without need for mechanical roughening of the surface or chemical cleaning, a chemical bond occurs and the cured polyester resin gets infiltrated by the fresh polyester resin. Epoxy on the other hand, will not stick to epoxy unless it is either still in the tack phase or has completely cured, but then been mechanically roughened my sanding. Epoxy will stick to polyester resin provided it has been thoughly cleaned with solvents and sanded or other form of mechanical retension made. But the cleaning issue leaves a question of just how clean and how strong the bond is. Please let me know if I have this backward because this has been my belief for some time from the text which I used in developing my understanding of composites. Please no more wars, I'm broke and I have more more aggression left. John G. 409 >From: "JOHN STARN" >To: >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I >Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:52:19 -0700 > >--> RV10-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" > >It's my understanding that epoxy resin will stick/bond to polyester but not >the other way around. >Do Not Archive KABONG > > "As we all know, epoxy filler doesn't stick too well to polyester parts, >but >>polyester fillers do stick to epoxy parts." > >----- Original Message ----- From: "John Gonzalez" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:56 AM >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filler wars - Part I > > >> > > ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:57 PM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel tank return fuel line --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis John, I just checked briefly in the shop to see if I could lay my hands on the part, but it will take more digging and I'm packing for a trip. It looks very similar to the fitting that Van's supplies for the fuel tank: http://deemsrv10.com/album/Sec%2018%20Fuel%20Tanks/slides/DSC01452.html except the "bung" is completely round, If i can remember I'll find it and post a pic when I return. Deems Davis # 406 Panel/Finishing http://deemsrv10.com/ John Jessen wrote: >--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" > >Has anyone on the list done this and could send pics or a link to their >site? > >John Jessen > #40328 > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson >Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 11:47 AM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel tank return fuel line > >--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > >I agree with Deems. I don't have any need for a return line right >now, but it sure would be a pain to add. I think if I were >doing my tanks again I'd probably add a bulkhead fitting slathered in >proseal and capped on the outside. That way if you ever need a return port >you have all the plumbing installed. > >Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying >do not archive > > >Deems Davis wrote: > > >>--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis >> >>Jae adding a return line could be an excellent addition. Depending >>upon which engine installation you decide upon. e.g. the AFP fuel >>injection system have a purge valve to assist hot starts/vapor lock >> >> >conditions. > > >>Eggenfellner requires one for continuous return of unused fuel. It's >>an easy addition that you can always stub off if not needed. Adding it >>later will be more difficult (ask me how I know). I found and bought a >>'bung' from one of the RV parts suppliers that can be riveted to the >>end rib and is already machined for the An fitting. >> >>Deems Davis # 406 >>Panel/Finishing >>http://deemsrv10.com/ >> >>Jae Chang wrote: >> >> >> >>>--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jae Chang" >>> >>> >>>Does anyone think adding a return fuel line to the fuel tanks, is a >>>bad idea? I have seen -7 builder logs add this addition, but not any >>>-10 builders, yet. >>> >>>If it's a worthwhile task, I notice that the fuel tank ribs have 2 >>>small identically sized holes for snapbushings on the top side of the >>>rib, right below the rib's top flange. The forward-most hole is >>>designated in the plans for the vent line. However, was there any >>>initial intention for the rear-most hole? As far as I can tell, it >>>looks like it is ignored. >>> >>>Do you foresee any problems using this existing rear-most hole for >>>putting in snapbushings to hold a fuel-return line? >>> >>>The only new hole I would need to drill then is in the T-1003B end >>>rib to hold the AN hardware. Do you foresee any problems putting a >>>hole in the end rib similar to the fuel tank ribs? >>> >>>Thanks for the feedback, >>>Jae >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:27 PM PST US From: Larry Rosen Subject: RV10-List: Load Analysis & Electrical Schematic --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen I have posted on my web site the electrical schematic and load analysis that I am considering. The electrical design is a single battery, dual alternator design. Comment if you would. Thanks to all who have before for a great load analysis layout for the . -- Larry Rosen RV-10 #356 http://lrosen.nerv10.com ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:48 PM PST US From: "bob.kaufmann" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Load Analysis & Electrical Schematic --> RV10-List message posted by: "bob.kaufmann" I would consider a dual battery instead of a dual alternator. Bob K All I know about electricity is that the paddles tingle after the juice goes into them. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 6:14 PM Subject: RV10-List: Load Analysis & Electrical Schematic --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen I have posted on my web site the electrical schematic and load analysis that I am considering. The electrical design is a single battery, dual alternator design. Comment if you would. Thanks to all who have before for a great load analysis layout for the . -- Larry Rosen RV-10 #356 http://lrosen.nerv10.com ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:20 PM PST US From: LES KEARNEY Subject: RV10-List: Change In Status --> RV10-List message posted by: LES KEARNEY Hi After three days in Oregon, two demo flights, a project visit and a two day sheet metal course, I have decided to upgrade my "RV10 Wannabe" status to "RV10 Awaiting Empennage Kit". Being at this point in the build process is a bit daunting. To this point all I have spent is time and a few dollars setting up my garage. Now the real fun & spend begins! On Monday I spent a couple of hours at Van's factory which included a plant floor tour and a demo flight in N210RV, Van's demo '10. The 20 minute demo flight was impressive in how the '10 accelerates, climbs and flies. I was given the chance to do a few turns etc and liked the impressive visability and the easy handling of the stick. This was my first time flying in the right seat and with a stick. The only realy disappointment was the "utilitarian" look of the demo '10. It also seemed a bit noisy but this may be due to the lack of soundproofing. It would have been nice it it had a more complete interior and a "state of the possible" panel. Monday evening Randy Debauw was kind enough to give me a flight in his '10. This was a lot more fun as he let me fly and land (*albeit with gentle guidance*) at a nearby airport. This gave me a much better feel for the '10. Tuesday I spent the day at Henry Gorgas' shop and started on a sheet metal workshop. Henry is very particular about how things should be done and took great pains to explain why he did things the way he did. Under his careful instruction I have a project piece that has examples of every type of defective rivertting including an absolutely stellar mushroom rivet. Tuesday night I spent a couple of hours with Bruce Radke getting a tour of his project. I now have an appreciation how how much composite work the '10 involves. Wednesday I spent another day with Henry an completed my airfoil project. My rivetting has improved *somewhat* and I learned how to drill out rivets. Somehow, I think this will be an important skill. After finishing my sheet metal class I zipped over to Van's and asked to see the quick build kits again, took a few pictures and bought my empennage kit. This list and the wonderfully detailed websites of those who have already built a '10 will be major build resource for me. Cheers Les ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:31 PM PST US From: "KiloPapa" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Direct2 issue --> RV10-List message posted by: "KiloPapa" Thanks! Kevin 40494 tail/empennage do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Ritter" Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 6:05 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Direct2 issue > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Mark Ritter" > > Kevin, > > The Garmin MX-20 has its own data base (another subscription fee). It > talks to the G430 and displays GPS flight plan route, etc. There are > three map pages (1) VFR map page that looks like a sectional map, (2) IFR > map page that has victor airways, intersections, etc., (3) Custom map page > which is a sectional map page but with the ability add or delete items. > It has a ton of features and options like XM weather and radio and > approach chart display - too numerous to mention here. It is also very > easy to learn how to use the features. > > Mark ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:12 PM PST US From: "Rob Wright" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Load Analysis & Electrical Schematic --> RV10-List message posted by: "Rob Wright" Really? I guess as Bob N. says, your design goals must be the deciding factor on your decision. Either option is viable. And even though the U.S. Army doesn't get it right all the time, they've opted for a single battery, dual alternator design in their single-engine helicopters. Of course, the option for the 2d battery is there, but that's usually left for cold-soaked aircraft needing the amps to start in the middle of the night with no ground power units available. Now if you plan on a hangared plane where you can hook up a ground power cable if it's too cold, you may want to choose the single battery/dual alternator setup. Then you don't have to immediately start the 30 minute "my-battery-is-going-dead" clock if your only alternator fails that powers your glass panel. I'm sure there are some more nice battery/alternator wars in the aeroelectric list archives that go into choices due to weight, c.g., spare engine pads, etc. in addition to original design goals. Rob Wright #392 Fuse -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob.kaufmann Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:31 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Load Analysis & Electrical Schematic --> RV10-List message posted by: "bob.kaufmann" I would consider a dual battery instead of a dual alternator. Bob K All I know about electricity is that the paddles tingle after the juice goes into them. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 6:14 PM Subject: RV10-List: Load Analysis & Electrical Schematic --> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen I have posted on my web site the electrical schematic and load analysis that I am considering. The electrical design is a single battery, dual alternator design. Comment if you would. Thanks to all who have before for a great load analysis layout for the . -- Larry Rosen RV-10 #356 http://lrosen.nerv10.com ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:42 PM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Change In Status --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" Les, it was good meeting you. I know you'll be just as thrilled and hooked as we all appear to be. Not only is it a great plane, but the support group you now have is even better. Enjoy! John Jessen #40328 (the guy priming his tailcone parts) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LES KEARNEY Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:48 PM Subject: RV10-List: Change In Status --> RV10-List message posted by: LES KEARNEY Hi After three days in Oregon, two demo flights, a project visit and a two day sheet metal course, I have decided to upgrade my "RV10 Wannabe" status to "RV10 Awaiting Empennage Kit". Being at this point in the build process is a bit daunting. To this point all I have spent is time and a few dollars setting up my garage. Now the real fun & spend begins! On Monday I spent a couple of hours at Van's factory which included a plant floor tour and a demo flight in N210RV, Van's demo '10. The 20 minute demo flight was impressive in how the '10 accelerates, climbs and flies. I was given the chance to do a few turns etc and liked the impressive visability and the easy handling of the stick. This was my first time flying in the right seat and with a stick. The only realy disappointment was the "utilitarian" look of the demo '10. It also seemed a bit noisy but this may be due to the lack of soundproofing. It would have been nice it it had a more complete interior and a "state of the possible" panel. Monday evening Randy Debauw was kind enough to give me a flight in his '10. This was a lot more fun as he let me fly and land (*albeit with gentle guidance*) at a nearby airport. This gave me a much better feel for the '10. Tuesday I spent the day at Henry Gorgas' shop and started on a sheet metal workshop. Henry is very particular about how things should be done and took great pains to explain why he did things the way he did. Under his careful instruction I have a project piece that has examples of every type of defective rivertting including an absolutely stellar mushroom rivet. Tuesday night I spent a couple of hours with Bruce Radke getting a tour of his project. I now have an appreciation how how much composite work the '10 involves. Wednesday I spent another day with Henry an completed my airfoil project. My rivetting has improved *somewhat* and I learned how to drill out rivets. Somehow, I think this will be an important skill. After finishing my sheet metal class I zipped over to Van's and asked to see the quick build kits again, took a few pictures and bought my empennage kit. This list and the wonderfully detailed websites of those who have already built a '10 will be major build resource for me. Cheers Les