Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:07 AM - Re: What Wire for Wiring? (Tim Olson)
2. 06:17 AM - Re: What Wire for Wiring? (Link McGarity)
3. 06:34 AM - Re: Accidents in RVs (Link McGarity)
4. 07:20 AM - RV10's SOLD? (ddddsp1@juno.com)
5. 07:41 AM - Re: Accidents in RVs (Marcus Cooper)
6. 08:48 AM - Torque Wrenches (Les Kearney)
7. 10:14 AM - Re: Accidents in RVs (John W. Cox)
8. 10:28 AM - Re: Accidents in RVs (Russell Daves)
9. 10:32 AM - Re: Accidents in RVs (GRANSCOTT@aol.com)
10. 10:35 AM - Re: RV10's SOLD? (John W. Cox)
11. 11:56 AM - Re: Torque Wrenches (bcondrey)
12. 02:21 PM - Re: (John Dunne)
13. 04:19 PM - Re: RV10's SOLD? (ddddsp1@juno.com)
14. 04:41 PM - Re: Accidents in RVs (Marcus Cooper)
15. 04:46 PM - Re: Accidents in RVs (bob.kaufmann)
16. 04:46 PM - Re: RV10's SOLD? (bob.kaufmann)
17. 05:11 PM - Re: Torque Wrenches (Tim Olson)
18. 05:30 PM - Re: RV10's SOLD? (Tim Olson)
19. 05:31 PM - Re: Torque Wrenches (Jesse Saint)
20. 05:42 PM - Re: RV10's SOLD? (John W. Cox)
21. 06:06 PM - Re: Torque Wrenches (Les Kearney)
22. 06:43 PM - Re: Re: Dual Lightspeed? (Bruce Patton)
23. 07:18 PM - AFS primer (Dsyvert@aol.com)
24. 07:21 PM - Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection (Perry Casson)
25. 08:13 PM - Re: What Wire for Wiring? (John Testement)
26. 08:55 PM - Re: What Wire for Wiring? (John W. Cox)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: What Wire for Wiring? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Stein gave some good info below, but I think his quantities on the
wires are way short for most RV-10's.
My initial order was:
100ft EACH of 7 different colored wires 22 ga
300ft white 22ga
300ft white 20ga
500ft white 18ga
100ft white 16ga
100ft white 14ga
100ft white 12ga
Things I can't find right now were how much twisted pair shielded
wire I got.
I think I got 200' of triplet wire and probably 300' or more of
single pair shielded. If you're not doing your own panel or
harnesses for avionics, a lot of this could change greatly, but
I don't have a lot of wire left over. Also, the lightweight
purists would gasp, but there were times where I ran out of things
like 18ga, so I ran a 16 (I think I ordered some 10ga and maybe
some additional 12ga later), and I think I ran 12 in place of 14
on a run too, rather than re-order wire. Wire is bought cheaper
in quantity than in short sections, and you're better off ordering
much more than you need than paying additional shipping charges.
I didn't have mine as well planned as I should have when I ordered
the wire.
Stein has great prices on heatshrink and ring terminals too, so
if you're doing your own panel I'd highly recommend Stein's
ring terminal KIT. Beyond that, you may want to add some additional
terminals to it. I have some extras left over for sure, but
it was very nice to just dig into the kit and have them there
rather than try to order the exact quanity...and the kit had
it's own separation sections. I ordered at least 25' of
3 or 4 different sized heatshrink. Stein's prices are great
on that, and I find it useful on other projects too.
Stein is right that it wouldn't at all pay to buy large
spools and sell it off later. Just buy some good round
numbered lengths and try to overestimate. You'll be
surprised how cheap wire actually is. My first order was
just over $200, and then I added some of the shielded pairs
and RG-400, but I'd be surprised if my total wire outlay
was over $400 or $450. It's pretty much insignificant
in the cost of the plane. (Heck, anything under $1000 is
nothing to the RV-10).
Sticking with white wire will make it easier to put together
an order for the proper amounts. Some people like to use
1 color for signals and hots, like Red for hots, white for
signals, and black for grounds. Some people like to use
multiple colors for things to make them more traceable.
If you're building your own AP harnesses, then it is kind
of nice to buy separate colors for those, which is what I
used some of my 100' lengths of colored on. I also used
some red and black throughout the panel. For the most part
though, I used white. Buy some skinny heatshrink to put over
wire labels.
While you're at it, if you're getting wire or anything
else from Stein, pick up a bunch of tools. His prices
were great on those too. If you do your own antenna wires,
get the RG-400 crimper and definitely get his side cutters. The
large cutter he sells works awesome on #2 welding wire.
As far as antenna connectors for that RG-400, check your
antennas. I found I also needed 4 or more TNC connectors,
as well as BNC. The WSI and the GNS-480 use TNC.
Oh, and if you're going to go with some fuses and some breakers,
Stein has good prices and selection on the fuse panels and fuses.
Can you tell that once you start wiring you've opened the
box? :) It's a lot of miscellaneous stuff, but you'll
absolutely save some money doing it, and go away with some
cool tools for your toolbox too. (Or sell them to the next
guy)
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Stein Bruch wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
>
> Hi James,
>
> Stick with the standard M22759/16 Tefzel wire...don't bother with teflon,
> silver plated, etc...or surplus stuff (you never know what you're getting).
> Also, if you spend more than a few hours "hunting" for a deal, you've just
> wasted enough time to buy what you want and what you need brand new.
> Depending on what you're doing with the plane and panel, buy at least the
> following initially:
>
> 200' AWG22
> 200' AWG18
> 150' AWG16
> 50' AWG20
> 50' AWG14
> 25' AWG12
> 25' AWG10
> 100' RG-400 Coax
> a dozen male BNC's, a half dozen female BNC's, a couple hundred PIDG ring
> terminals, and some heatshrink.
>
> Now, depending on if you want colors or not you can split all that up. The
> above wiring amounts could vary pretty significantly depending on if you're
> wiring your own panel or not, whether you're going full boat on lighting,
> radios, IFR/VFR, etc.. I wouldn't waste my time buying whole spools then
> trying to sell the surplus. Heck, wire is relatively cheap, we're talking
> about something that costs pennies per foot...you'll only spend a couple/few
> hundred bucks of wire total. Why waste your time goofing
> around.......figure out what you need, what colors you want and just buy it.
> As someone who regularly buys wire in 10,000' - 20,000' spools and keeps
> over a half million feet of wire "hanging around", I can tell you playing
> with spools to save a few percent is a waste of time on an item like this,
> for one airplane. With your Avionics or engine it's a different story
> because you can save a lot of dough, but in the wiring it's such a cheap
> item to begin with that it's not worth much effort to save a buck.
>
> Just my 2 cents as usual!
>
> Cheers,
> Stein.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of James Hein
> Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 7:32 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: What Wire for Wiring?
>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
>
> Hey Y'all!
>
> What type of wire should I use for wiring? Teflon? Tefzel? Tin
> coated copper? silver coated copper?
> I looked at wiremasters.net, and it appears that for 14ga. Tefzel, the
> length is 1,200ft. I'm quite sure I don't need THAT much, especially in
> only one color. (What am I doing wrong?)
>
> Also, does anyone have an initial "shopping list" of wire that you
> bought to start off with? Would you mind sharing it?
>
> -Jim 40384, deburring bottom wing skins
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: What Wire for Wiring? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Link McGarity <wv4i@bellsouth.net>
Take a look at www.AeroElectric.com articles, etc... Huge library of
articles, how to's, schematics, reference info. Aircraft wiring....want
stranded wire of proper gauge for anticipated load(s) and length, and
properly breakered to protect the wire (yes, the wire,,,this will spur
discussion, I'm sure), with a non-toxic insulation,
i.e.teflon/zel/whatever (when hot or on fire)...beyond that, the
considerations and options go forth....
Link Mcgarity
RV10/#40622 elevator
RV6/N42GF/flying (all new instrument panel, and wiring thereto in 2004)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Accidents in RVs |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Link McGarity <wv4i@bellsouth.net>
Was reading my AOPA email and wound up on link to NTSB summary of
accidents in Cirrus SR20/22. For comparison, I did a search of all RV
accidents in same time period. List was about the same length, and equal
distribution of injuries, i.e. none/minor/serious/fatal. Saw NO RV-10's,
yet. Only did cursory look at data, but food for thought. I hear that
Cirrus is now requiring time in type to turn the new owner loose? Or
would that be the insurance cos? RV-10 insurers?
I don't think RV's will get you in trouble as fast as a
Glasair/Lancair/other composite with higher wing loading, but they are
definitely not Cessnas/Pipers either, and demand respect. Need to really
become a student of aerodynamics, wing loading, wt & bal, etc., and be
receptive to learning, IMHO.
Link McGarity
#40622
Message 4
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Was curious how many of the RV10's that were up for sale had been sold a
nd what the selling price was. Anyone know? Some have been advertised
on here from John Stewart's, Jesse's, RV10 in Minnesota, to 325HP. Wha
t will the "Market VALUE" be on the RV10?
Dean
40449 Completing modification #188 of John Cox's 387. :)
________________________________________________________________________
<html><P>Was curious how many of the RV10's that were up for sale had be
en sold and what the selling price was. Anyone know? S
ome have been advertised on here from John Stewart's, Jesse's, RV10 in M
innesota, to 325HP. What will the "Market VALUE" be on the RV10?&n
bsp; </P>
<P>Dean </P>
<P>40449 Completing modification #188 of John Cox's 387. :)<
BR></P>
<font face="Times-New-Roman" size="2"><br><br>______________________
__________________________________________________<br>
Visit <a href="http://www.juno.com/value">http://www.juno.com/value</a
> to sign up today!<br></font>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Accidents in RVs |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@bellsouth.net>
Link,
I agree 100% regarding RV-s getting you into trouble less than the glass
ships. I had an RV-6 that had an engine come apart. Due to the surrounding
terrain, I would have had a really bad day in a glass ship not only with a
high wing loading, but also a laminar flow wing that likes a love of speed
to keep the air attached. It still was not pretty, but I was very thankful
to be in an RV-6 that day. My RV-10 stalls at least 15 knots faster than
the -6, but it's still respectable although, as you mentioned, it's trickier
than a C-172 and you really don't want to get too slow.
I did a lot of research and soul-searching before committing on the -10. I
really like the Express and the Lancair ES from a performance and sex appeal
standpoint, but from a "keep my family safe" standpoint it was easy for me
to give up the high end cruise for low speed capability.
Off the soapbox, guess this one struck a nerve for me.
Marcus
66hrs and counting
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Link McGarity
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Accidents in RVs
--> RV10-List message posted by: Link McGarity <wv4i@bellsouth.net>
Was reading my AOPA email and wound up on link to NTSB summary of
accidents in Cirrus SR20/22. For comparison, I did a search of all RV
accidents in same time period. List was about the same length, and equal
distribution of injuries, i.e. none/minor/serious/fatal. Saw NO RV-10's,
yet. Only did cursory look at data, but food for thought. I hear that
Cirrus is now requiring time in type to turn the new owner loose? Or
would that be the insurance cos? RV-10 insurers?
I don't think RV's will get you in trouble as fast as a
Glasair/Lancair/other composite with higher wing loading, but they are
definitely not Cessnas/Pipers either, and demand respect. Need to really
become a student of aerodynamics, wing loading, wt & bal, etc., and be
receptive to learning, IMHO.
Link McGarity
#40622
Message 6
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Hi
I have been reading the archives regarding torque wrenches. Section 5 of
the
builder's manual refers to torque specifications from 20 - 1500 in-lbs
for
AN bolts AN3 - AN10. My empennage kit only has AN3 & 4 bolds which
implies
all I need for now is a wrench that will do 20 - 70 in-lbs.
My question is: what is the largest bolt size I will have to deal with
on
the RV10. Is there a recommended torque wrench size? If I want to cover
off
the requirements of Section 5, it looks like I will ultimately need at
least
two torque wrenches. Is this really the case?
Inquiring minds need to know.
Les Kearney
Rv10 # 40643 - still awaiting tool order
Message 7
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| Subject: | Accidents in RVs |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Builders should get psychologically ready for the prospects of the
requirement. It was the only way Lancair builders could even get
insurance if they did not abandon their builds. With glass EFIS, speeds
above 150 knots, four soles aboard and frequent landings to exotic
non-local airports the insurance actuaries might place the requirement
for make and model proficiency on a regular basis.
Just imagine Alex and Mike trying to keep up to speed with the next six
hundred pilots just trying to get their 25 fly-off qualifications out of
the way.
Plan accordingly. High Performance is here to stay.
John Cox
#40600
Do not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Link McGarity
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 6:31 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Accidents in RVs
--> RV10-List message posted by: Link McGarity <wv4i@bellsouth.net>
Was reading my AOPA email and wound up on link to NTSB summary of
accidents in Cirrus SR20/22. For comparison, I did a search of all RV
accidents in same time period. List was about the same length, and equal
distribution of injuries, i.e. none/minor/serious/fatal. Saw NO RV-10's,
yet. Only did cursory look at data, but food for thought. I hear that
Cirrus is now requiring time in type to turn the new owner loose? Or
would that be the insurance cos? RV-10 insurers?
I don't think RV's will get you in trouble as fast as a
Glasair/Lancair/other composite with higher wing loading, but they are
definitely not Cessnas/Pipers either, and demand respect. Need to really
become a student of aerodynamics, wing loading, wt & bal, etc., and be
receptive to learning, IMHO.
Link McGarity
#40622
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Accidents in RVs |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Russell Daves" <dav1111@cox.net>
Dear Link & Marcus:
Sorry but I just couldn't fail to respond to your comments:
I haven't experienced the same stall speed in my RV-10 that you must be
having, or our 6's were way different.
My RV-10 stalls clean at 53-54 knots indicated and with full flaps at 48-49
knots indicated. I would have loved it if my RV-6A had stalled 15 knots
slower than that.
I just spent some time last week with another RV-10 builder letting him get
some stick time in my RV-10 (about 5 hours) and Bob currently flies a C-172
in a flying club. Hopefully Bob Kaufman, will speak to whether or not he
thinks my RV-10 is trickery than a C-172 and whether or not you "don't want
to get too slow.
Russ Daves
N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Accidents in RVs
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@bellsouth.net>
>
> Link,
> I agree 100% regarding RV-s getting you into trouble less than the glass
> ships. I had an RV-6 that had an engine come apart. Due to the
> surrounding
> terrain, I would have had a really bad day in a glass ship not only with a
> high wing loading, but also a laminar flow wing that likes a love of speed
> to keep the air attached. It still was not pretty, but I was very
> thankful
> to be in an RV-6 that day. My RV-10 stalls at least 15 knots faster than
> the -6, but it's still respectable although, as you mentioned, it's
> trickier
> than a C-172 and you really don't want to get too slow.
>
> I did a lot of research and soul-searching before committing on the -10.
> I
> really like the Express and the Lancair ES from a performance and sex
> appeal
> standpoint, but from a "keep my family safe" standpoint it was easy for me
> to give up the high end cruise for low speed capability.
>
> Off the soapbox, guess this one struck a nerve for me.
>
> Marcus
> 66hrs and counting
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Link McGarity
> Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 9:31 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Accidents in RVs
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Link McGarity <wv4i@bellsouth.net>
>
> Was reading my AOPA email and wound up on link to NTSB summary of
> accidents in Cirrus SR20/22. For comparison, I did a search of all RV
> accidents in same time period. List was about the same length, and equal
> distribution of injuries, i.e. none/minor/serious/fatal. Saw NO RV-10's,
> yet. Only did cursory look at data, but food for thought. I hear that
> Cirrus is now requiring time in type to turn the new owner loose? Or
> would that be the insurance cos? RV-10 insurers?
>
> I don't think RV's will get you in trouble as fast as a
> Glasair/Lancair/other composite with higher wing loading, but they are
> definitely not Cessnas/Pipers either, and demand respect. Need to really
> become a student of aerodynamics, wing loading, wt & bal, etc., and be
> receptive to learning, IMHO.
>
> Link McGarity
> #40622
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Accidents in RVs |
The other year, Aviation Consumer wrote an article on the accidents rates of
experimental vs. certified aircraft indicating that experimental's were more
dangerous than certified aircraft.
So being involved in our EAA chapter, I decided to do a quick review of the
two most popular products in each area...the RV and the Cirrus. At the time
the Cirrus had more than 40 fatalities in accidents and more than 30
accidents. More than 40% of their accidents resulted in death in spite of the
parachute. Several of the accidents involved a student and a CFI, or
CFIT--controlled flight into terrain. At the time Cirrus had not yet begun a
FITS
program. Both products--Van's and Cirrus had about the same amount of planes
flying, actually the Van's had more planes on the register. It's sometimes hard
to
ferret out the total number of Van's completed as they are often listed in
the register with the builders name followed by Vans...such as Smith Van 6
etc. So the search is a bit more difficult than requesting Cirrus 20 or 22.
I'm shooting from memory but if I remember correctly there were only 2 fatal
Van's incidents...both resulting from fuel exhaustion and into terrain...one
was in CA and the other I believe was Texas. Now if you begin to compare
and make assumptions, such as most Cirrus pilots fly IFR/VFR and many but not
all of the Van's are generally VFR condition products or are only lightly IFR
until the later models have come on stream. Then the Cirrus aircraft often
are flying at a time with more potential deadly situations compared to many of
the Van's flights. And often the Cirrus accidents were when in IFR
conditions.
Now the one really oddity is that the first fatal Cirrus accident was not in
a "certified" Cirrus aircraft, no the first fatal accident was in an
experimental Cirrus so the fatality counted in the total experimental category.
But that withstanding, one can compare the Cirrus accident and death rates
to the other certified aircraft and when you do; it become pretty apparent
that the death rate per accident for the Cirrus is extremely high for units and
hours flown compared to other certified aircraft, and if you over lay this
with the fleet age it down right indecent. So what can one say about the Cirrus
and these high accident rates, is it the plane or pilots? I don't know the
experience of the Cirrus pilots but when you read the accident information
one begins to develop a profile that many are relatively new pilots, with very
few hours either as IFR, Cirrus experience or piloting in general.
Initially the CFI's were not being trained by Cirrus on it's equipment...something
that they have instituted since the initial spate of accidents.
I'm no accident or aviation expert but I sure believe that the Cirrus's
saw-tooth wing certainly has a much more critical stall speed compared to the
Van's modified "piperish" style wing. I have several friends that fly the
Cirrus and they say the wing will slow down considerably when it is wet or in
cloudy, wet conditions. I'm sort of guessing that the wing is pretty critical
and the laminar boundary's flow is being reduced considerable when moisture
covers the flow characteristics as explained in Richard von Mises book, Theory
of Flight. If one want to delve into laminar flow von Mise's book
Mathematical Theory of Compressible Fluid Flow, is a must read but it was way above
my
math background.
The concept of laminar flow deals with the movement of fluids and not it's
application on wing lift..it is generally considered, the flowing of liquid
through a channel of some type. One can take this application in liquids and
apply it in aviation since the wing is really flowing through a "liquid"
medium...moist air.
I'm not convenced that plastic materials add to the fatal accident rates,
yet. Most of the current "plastic" aircraft have very unique wing designs
compared to the other spar/rib riveted certified aircraft, including Al Mooney
wing or certified wings. But only time and experience will play out. I don't
know if any of you have spent any time with Harry Ribblet...he's has a lot to
say in an interesting way...if I'm not mistaken he consulted on the
"Raven"...the composite Commanche from South Africa. You might want to read his
book
or chat him up one day.
Anyway, as I said I'm no expert, but I sort of think that the Cirrus will
eventually calm down to a good "incident" rate when the fleet has experience and
trained CFI/I in place. Van's being able to take a good basic designed
aircraft and flush all the rivets add's to it's speed and handling...thanks to
Howard Hughes and his team for being one of the first to consider flush rivets
to hold on our skins and decrease resistance.
Always a learning curve when one changes technology a bit, the learning
curve is pretty steep and can be dangerous at times. Please take all this as
just my opinion and not facts, your research and information may lead to a
different conclusion.
I wrote a reply to AC about my research and got a waffle reply from the
publisher who agreed with me but did not want to publish my reply to their
article.
Are experimentals more accident prone than certified aircraft...depends how
you split the data and how you use the data. It could go like this...powered
lawn chairs vs Cessna...Cessna wins...Van's vs. Cirrus...Van's wins...that's
my opinion, tho.
Patrick
do not archive
Message 10
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John Nys and his son are now mass producing them so he can obviously
quote the best baseline. I think I heard six sold to date. They are
not selling like hotcakes yet. We are getting a statically appropriate
number of job conflicts, divorce, cancellation of projects and death by
natural causes to show it should produce normal ratios of sales. The
price will be impossible to adjust the Comps due to quality, features
and ranges of steam gages to four screen glass EFIS. Jesse will be able
to provide a safe "Bell Cow" soon. Too many are being sold, too soon
after completion IMHO. Time should shake this out or raise eyebrows.
By the end of next summer there should be 100 flying which means Mass
Exposure to the potential ownership market - everywhere. I would expect
worldwide sales will see a remarkable jump. Component weaknesses,
stress cracks and small issues should develop a pattern and receive
corrective action by then. I think most builders are pleasantly
surprised at how well the kit is designed. Tragically, the demand for
engine blocks will produce the greatest increase in pricing. Hello
Lycoming/Thunderbolt "Can you hear us now?" Just as Lancair and
Advanced got into the composite panel market, I would expect two or
three suppliers of pre-made wiring harnesses to surface. Abby should
see some big name upholstery shops wake up and go after her market as
well. As the James exterior cowl and pressure plenum goes into its
third iteration, others will enter that market as well. All in all it
is an exciting time for kit-builds.
Oh yeh, the 51% Task Force is supposed to produce some tangible results
next month... stay tuned.
John
40600
Do not Archive
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ddddsp1@juno.com
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:17 AM
Subject: RV10-List: RV10's SOLD?
Was curious how many of the RV10's that were up for sale had been sold
and what the selling price was. Anyone know? Some have been
advertised on here from John Stewart's, Jesse's, RV10 in Minnesota, to
325HP. What will the "Market VALUE" be on the RV10?
Dean
40449 Completing modification #188 of John Cox's 387. :)
________________________________________________________________________
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Torque Wrenches |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "bcondrey" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
The vast majority of the bolts are AN3 and AN4 size. There are some larger size
bolts to hold on the engine mount, wings, wheels, etc. IIRC, the largest is
AN7.
You will indeed wind up with multiple torque wrenches.
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69515#69515
Message 12
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Hi Indran, I'll be at Wagga from Thursday evening through Saturday. I'm
also hoping to see a few 10's there. I'll contact you off-line with a
mobile number. It would be good to see a few 10 builders there. We may
see the operators of the 0-540, the IO 's and the turbo for some good
comparative notes. Here's hoping!
John 40315 do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: Indran Chelvanayagam
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 1:19 AM
Subject: RV10-List:
Any RV-10 builders (or their planes) going to the SAAA fly-in in Wagga
next weekend? We should get together for a beer or three!
I'd also love to see the turbocharged -10 that Ron mentioned a few
days ago.
Indran
#40228
WOW Fri/Sat
Message 13
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John,
Does anyone know what John Ny is getting for his projects? ..........and
WHO has bought these project planes, and are they flying them to any no
table flyins? At least we could conclude his price would establish the
lower end of the market .............rite?
Dean
40449
________________________________________________________________________
<html><P>John,</P>
<P>Does anyone know what John Ny is getting for his projects? ..........
and WHO has bought these project planes, and are they flying them to any
notable flyins? At least we could conclude his price would
establish the lower end of the market .............rite?</P>
<P>Dean</P>
<P>40449</P>
<font face="Times-New-Roman" size="2"><br><br>______________________
__________________________________________________<br>
Visit <a href="http://www.juno.com/value">http://www.juno.com/value</a
> to sign up today!<br></font>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Accidents in RVs |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@bellsouth.net>
Russ,
Actually, I have the same stall numbers you do and my RV-6 stalled in the
high 30s with full flaps. Having said that, my comment about being more
tricky was probably too strong. My experience is simply that the -10 seems
to bleed off energy faster than I remember in a light Cessna on final and
while the -10 is a dream to fly and very simple, if you let it get slower
than desired it might catch someone that's not expecting it.
My real point in the original message is that the Van's airplanes are far
safer than the glass ships from the standpoint that if you find yourself
engine out, you have more options thanks to the slower approach speed. It's
just that the -10 isn't as slow as the 2 seaters, but still a whole lot
better than the other options. Obviously this is only my opinion.
Marcus
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Accidents in RVs
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Russell Daves" <dav1111@cox.net>
Dear Link & Marcus:
Sorry but I just couldn't fail to respond to your comments:
I haven't experienced the same stall speed in my RV-10 that you must be
having, or our 6's were way different.
My RV-10 stalls clean at 53-54 knots indicated and with full flaps at 48-49
knots indicated. I would have loved it if my RV-6A had stalled 15 knots
slower than that.
I just spent some time last week with another RV-10 builder letting him get
some stick time in my RV-10 (about 5 hours) and Bob currently flies a C-172
in a flying club. Hopefully Bob Kaufman, will speak to whether or not he
thinks my RV-10 is trickery than a C-172 and whether or not you "don't want
to get too slow.
Russ Daves
N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Accidents in RVs
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@bellsouth.net>
>
> Link,
> I agree 100% regarding RV-s getting you into trouble less than the glass
> ships. I had an RV-6 that had an engine come apart. Due to the
> surrounding
> terrain, I would have had a really bad day in a glass ship not only with a
> high wing loading, but also a laminar flow wing that likes a love of speed
> to keep the air attached. It still was not pretty, but I was very
> thankful
> to be in an RV-6 that day. My RV-10 stalls at least 15 knots faster than
> the -6, but it's still respectable although, as you mentioned, it's
> trickier
> than a C-172 and you really don't want to get too slow.
>
> I did a lot of research and soul-searching before committing on the -10.
> I
> really like the Express and the Lancair ES from a performance and sex
> appeal
> standpoint, but from a "keep my family safe" standpoint it was easy for me
> to give up the high end cruise for low speed capability.
>
> Off the soapbox, guess this one struck a nerve for me.
>
> Marcus
> 66hrs and counting
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Link McGarity
> Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 9:31 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Accidents in RVs
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Link McGarity <wv4i@bellsouth.net>
>
> Was reading my AOPA email and wound up on link to NTSB summary of
> accidents in Cirrus SR20/22. For comparison, I did a search of all RV
> accidents in same time period. List was about the same length, and equal
> distribution of injuries, i.e. none/minor/serious/fatal. Saw NO RV-10's,
> yet. Only did cursory look at data, but food for thought. I hear that
> Cirrus is now requiring time in type to turn the new owner loose? Or
> would that be the insurance cos? RV-10 insurers?
>
> I don't think RV's will get you in trouble as fast as a
> Glasair/Lancair/other composite with higher wing loading, but they are
> definitely not Cessnas/Pipers either, and demand respect. Need to really
> become a student of aerodynamics, wing loading, wt & bal, etc., and be
> receptive to learning, IMHO.
>
> Link McGarity
> #40622
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Accidents in RVs |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann@cox.net>
Russ et al
I would have to say that the RV-10 is an easy aircraft to fly. It is more
responsive than most, has more than enough power to get you out of
embarrassment and the ratio from stall speed to top speed is very good. We
never got Russ's 10 in a complete stall because my wife was in the back seat
and I am trying to make flying as easy on her as I can and stalls are not
what she is ready for. We did do slow flight in the very low 60's with no
sink rate, not a lot of power, and was very comfortable, no burble, and very
controllable. If my wife would not have been along we would have been a
little more radical but .......
I own a portion of a 172, and I can get it down to mid 40s but it is way
behind the power curve and impossible to do any maneuvering at the speed.
It is kind of fun to fly that slow, reminds me of my old hang gliding days,
think I should open the window and hang my head out for the total sensation.
This airplane, the 10, is not hard to fly. The speeds are not that much
different than the 172 in the pattern and I think that anyone with some time
is a 172 or 182 should be able to handle the plane quite well.
For what its worth, a friend of mine just bought a new 182 for $355,000 so
keep pounding those rivets if you want to go faster and farther than his 355
is taking him. Do not archive.
Bob K
Fiberglass and catchup. 90/90
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Accidents in RVs
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Russell Daves" <dav1111@cox.net>
Dear Link & Marcus:
Sorry but I just couldn't fail to respond to your comments:
I haven't experienced the same stall speed in my RV-10 that you must be
having, or our 6's were way different.
My RV-10 stalls clean at 53-54 knots indicated and with full flaps at 48-49
knots indicated. I would have loved it if my RV-6A had stalled 15 knots
slower than that.
I just spent some time last week with another RV-10 builder letting him get
some stick time in my RV-10 (about 5 hours) and Bob currently flies a C-172
in a flying club. Hopefully Bob Kaufman, will speak to whether or not he
thinks my RV-10 is trickery than a C-172 and whether or not you "don't want
to get too slow.
Russ Daves
N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Accidents in RVs
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@bellsouth.net>
>
> Link,
> I agree 100% regarding RV-s getting you into trouble less than the glass
> ships. I had an RV-6 that had an engine come apart. Due to the
> surrounding
> terrain, I would have had a really bad day in a glass ship not only with a
> high wing loading, but also a laminar flow wing that likes a love of speed
> to keep the air attached. It still was not pretty, but I was very
> thankful
> to be in an RV-6 that day. My RV-10 stalls at least 15 knots faster than
> the -6, but it's still respectable although, as you mentioned, it's
> trickier
> than a C-172 and you really don't want to get too slow.
>
> I did a lot of research and soul-searching before committing on the -10.
> I
> really like the Express and the Lancair ES from a performance and sex
> appeal
> standpoint, but from a "keep my family safe" standpoint it was easy for me
> to give up the high end cruise for low speed capability.
>
> Off the soapbox, guess this one struck a nerve for me.
>
> Marcus
> 66hrs and counting
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Link McGarity
> Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 9:31 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Accidents in RVs
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Link McGarity <wv4i@bellsouth.net>
>
> Was reading my AOPA email and wound up on link to NTSB summary of
> accidents in Cirrus SR20/22. For comparison, I did a search of all RV
> accidents in same time period. List was about the same length, and equal
> distribution of injuries, i.e. none/minor/serious/fatal. Saw NO RV-10's,
> yet. Only did cursory look at data, but food for thought. I hear that
> Cirrus is now requiring time in type to turn the new owner loose? Or
> would that be the insurance cos? RV-10 insurers?
>
> I don't think RV's will get you in trouble as fast as a
> Glasair/Lancair/other composite with higher wing loading, but they are
> definitely not Cessnas/Pipers either, and demand respect. Need to really
> become a student of aerodynamics, wing loading, wt & bal, etc., and be
> receptive to learning, IMHO.
>
> Link McGarity
> #40622
>
>
>
Message 16
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LOL
Bob K
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ddddsp1@juno.com
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10's SOLD?
John,
Does anyone know what John Ny is getting for his projects? ..........and WHO
has bought these project planes, and are they flying them to any notable
flyins? At least we could conclude his price would establish the lower end
of the market .............rite?
Dean
40449
________________________________________________________________________
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Torque Wrenches |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
You'll need a big one (1/2") for the prop and a few
things. You'll need a medium one (3/8") for a few
duties like spark plugs and such. You'll find a lot
of use for an inch-lb small one (1/4") for doing your AN3's
and AN4's. So really, if you wanted to be perfectly
prepared, I'd start shopping for good deals early.
Tim
Les Kearney wrote:
> Hi
>
>
>
> I have been reading the archives regarding torque wrenches. Section 5 of
> the builders manual refers to torque specifications from 20 1500
> in-lbs for AN bolts AN3 AN10. My empennage kit only has AN3 & 4 bolds
> which implies all I need for now is a wrench that will do 20 70 in-lbs.
>
>
>
> My question is: what is the largest bolt size I will have to deal with
> on the RV10. Is there a recommended torque wrench size? If I want to
> cover off the requirements of Section 5, it looks like I will ultimately
> need at least two torque wrenches. Is this really the case?
>
>
>
> Inquiring minds need to know.
>
>
>
> Les Kearney
>
> Rv10 # 40643 still awaiting tool order
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: RV10's SOLD? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I've recently heard that one of the above went for $245K, but I don't
know if that's true. I know the one in Minnesota just sold, but
I'm not sure for how much. I'm pretty sure it wasn't $285K though.
And hasn't 325HP been offered out for something in the $220K range??
Not sure on that one either. I thought I heard one of Nys's early
ones went for $185K or something like that.
So, I'd think the range for the market would be something like $180K
for one that was trimmed minimally and not built to the highest
of standards, while $260K might be a fairly good price for a really
nicely equipped and well built -10....and if someone had every bell
and whistle, perhaps even closer to $280K or maybe a little more.
But even with a beautiful plane equipped like a production plane,
with something like a G1000, I would think that would be very
very hard to command a price of anywhere near $300K. Once you
get to that price point, you're now in direct competition with the
Cirrus and some others, and people with that kind of cash would
probably lean more towards factory built and certified planes.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
ddddsp1@juno.com wrote:
> Was curious how many of the RV10's that were up for sale had been sold
> and what the selling price was. Anyone know? Some have been
> advertised on here from John Stewart's, Jesse's, RV10 in Minnesota, to
> 325HP. What will the "Market VALUE" be on the RV10?
>
> Dean
>
> 40449 Completing modification #188 of John Cox's 387. :)
>
>
>
Message 19
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--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
I have one each of the two that Avery sells (the plastic-handle CDI's). The
small one is used mainly, but the big one will be needed for engine mount,
engine install, wing install and prop install. Those few are probably
important enough to get a good one, although you could also borrow one for
that need, I reckon. Did I just say, "I reckon?" Man, I have been out of
MN and in FL too long, ay Tim and Stein? (answer, "Ya sure, you betcha!")
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 8:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Torque Wrenches
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
You'll need a big one (1/2") for the prop and a few
things. You'll need a medium one (3/8") for a few
duties like spark plugs and such. You'll find a lot
of use for an inch-lb small one (1/4") for doing your AN3's
and AN4's. So really, if you wanted to be perfectly
prepared, I'd start shopping for good deals early.
Tim
Les Kearney wrote:
> Hi
>
>
>
> I have been reading the archives regarding torque wrenches. Section 5 of
> the builders manual refers to torque specifications from 20 1500
> in-lbs for AN bolts AN3 AN10. My empennage kit only has AN3 & 4 bolds
> which implies all I need for now is a wrench that will do 20 70 in-lbs.
>
>
>
> My question is: what is the largest bolt size I will have to deal with
> on the RV10. Is there a recommended torque wrench size? If I want to
> cover off the requirements of Section 5, it looks like I will ultimately
> need at least two torque wrenches. Is this really the case?
>
>
>
> Inquiring minds need to know.
>
>
>
> Les Kearney
>
> Rv10 # 40643 still awaiting tool order
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
--
Message 20
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|
His first sold to a lady in CA (who rescues dogs) made it to OSH this
year. Pictures available - your conclusion has merit.
John
40600
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ddddsp1@juno.com
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 4:17 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10's SOLD?
John,
Does anyone know what John Ny is getting for his projects? ..........and
WHO has bought these project planes, and are they flying them to any
notable flyins? At least we could conclude his price would establish
the lower end of the market .............rite?
Dean
40449
________________________________________________________________________
Message 21
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|
--> RV10-List message posted by: Les Kearney <kearney@shaw.ca>
Tim / Jessie
As we would say in Newfoundland, "lovely tell yer mudder". I get to buy a
couple or three torque wrenches! Maybe I'll just find another -10 builder
and steal theirs when they are not looking. Oops, did I just say that out
loud!
Thanks for the info, any excuse to buy more tools.
Cheers
Les Kearney
Rv10 # 40643 - still awaiting tool order
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Torque Wrenches
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
I have one each of the two that Avery sells (the plastic-handle CDI's). The
small one is used mainly, but the big one will be needed for engine mount,
engine install, wing install and prop install. Those few are probably
important enough to get a good one, although you could also borrow one for
that need, I reckon. Did I just say, "I reckon?" Man, I have been out of
MN and in FL too long, ay Tim and Stein? (answer, "Ya sure, you betcha!")
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 8:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Torque Wrenches
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
You'll need a big one (1/2") for the prop and a few
things. You'll need a medium one (3/8") for a few
duties like spark plugs and such. You'll find a lot
of use for an inch-lb small one (1/4") for doing your AN3's
and AN4's. So really, if you wanted to be perfectly
prepared, I'd start shopping for good deals early.
Tim
Les Kearney wrote:
> Hi
>
>
>
> I have been reading the archives regarding torque wrenches. Section 5 of
> the builder's manual refers to torque specifications from 20 - 1500
> in-lbs for AN bolts AN3 - AN10. My empennage kit only has AN3 & 4 bolds
> which implies all I need for now is a wrench that will do 20 - 70 in-lbs.
>
>
>
> My question is: what is the largest bolt size I will have to deal with
> on the RV10. Is there a recommended torque wrench size? If I want to
> cover off the requirements of Section 5, it looks like I will ultimately
> need at least two torque wrenches. Is this really the case?
>
>
>
> Inquiring minds need to know.
>
>
>
> Les Kearney
>
> Rv10 # 40643 - still awaiting tool order
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
--
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Dual Lightspeed? |
I worked for some time on a Reno Air Sports racer this year. We have a highly
modified Continental twin turbo, intercooled, ADI and water spray. We were trying
to balance the EGTs. We purchased a set of drills, .001" apart in the range
of the injectors.
It took a few tries, but by examining the data from the engine monitor post flight,
we reamed out the injectors on the hottest EGTs. After a while, we were
running within 100 degrees or less across the board. (We were running very rich
of peak, around 55 GPH at 42" boost, a lot of cooling by fuel. When we went
over 44", the thing went to 65 gph, way too rich, very rough. The pilot could
lean to run, but you don't have time to do that in a Race. Next year, the
system will be changed so the Pilot only has to push the throttle.) We had
a lot of spare injectors, but only went too far a couple of times. Seems .003
enlargement would get us around 180 degrees cooler. You have to drill with
care and then sort of polish out the holes by spinning the shank of the drill
in the hole for a time.
Bruce Patton
Message 23
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Group,
I searched Matronics and VansAirforce on AFS primer. My questions are:
1) Do you use it? If yes why? If not, why not?
2) On a scale of zero to ten do you think it is good? One being worse than
no primer; Two being equivalent to no primer; Four being as good as SW988;
Six beings as good Var-prime; and ten being as good as epoxy.
3) It seems that AFS is really a fabric covering company. Does anyone know
if they have any major customers like Boeing or has any of the majors tested
it?
4) Is there any long term tests?
5) Any other thoughts?
I like the idea of it being more environmentally friendly to me, but there
does not seem to be a lot of information out there. I am a bit concerned it
not having a SW or PPG name on it. You would think that these companies would
have come up with something similar.
I plan on calling them tomorrow with similar questions.
Thanks
Dave Syvertson
Message 24
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| Subject: | Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Perry Casson <pcasson@sasktel.net>
Hi All,
The Van's RV-10 wiring harness kit is designed for a carbureted engine with a boost
pump. I'm
installing a fuel injected engine so need to make some modifications. It looks
as if the easy thing
would be just to install a 10A breaker and upsize the wire to convert the boost
pump circuit to a
injection pump circuit but is that really what is best? Seems to me we want that
pump running as
long as the ignition switch is in a run position and not switched with the master
on/off. Like to
hear what others are doing.
Thanks
Perry Casson - still wiring....
Regina, Canada
Message 25
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| Subject: | What Wire for Wiring? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Testement" <jwt@roadmapscoaching.com>
Jim.
Strongly recommend you get and read the Aeroelectric Connection by Bob
Nuckels. Also Stein at SteinAir has been incredibly helpful to me and sells
wire by the foot. If you email me direct I can give you some other
resources.
John Testement
jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
Finish kit - wheel fairings, wiring panel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 8:32 PM
Subject: RV10-List: What Wire for Wiring?
--> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
Hey Y'all!
What type of wire should I use for wiring? Teflon? Tefzel? Tin coated
copper? silver coated copper?
I looked at wiremasters.net, and it appears that for 14ga. Tefzel, the
length is 1,200ft. I'm quite sure I don't need THAT much, especially in only
one color. (What am I doing wrong?)
Also, does anyone have an initial "shopping list" of wire that you bought to
start off with? Would you mind sharing it?
-Jim 40384, deburring bottom wing skins
--
--
Message 26
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| Subject: | What Wire for Wiring? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Okay Tim, I'll bite. What is your price for the sale of your cool
wiring tools? I am ready with Cash $$.
You were kidding?? Oh, Okay, can you list the cool electrical wiring
tools you won't sell as a start point for beginner's.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: What Wire for Wiring?
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Can you tell that once you start wiring you've opened the
box? :) It's a lot of miscellaneous stuff, but you'll
absolutely save some money doing it, and go away with some
cool tools for your toolbox too. (Or sell them to the next
guy)
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
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