Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:19 AM - Plexiglass scratch repair (Ostategrad@cs.com)
2. 04:25 AM - Re: What Wire for Wiring? (Tim Olson)
3. 05:13 AM - Re: AFS primer (Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX)
4. 05:19 AM - Re: Accidents in RVsAccidents in RVs (Link McGarity)
5. 05:32 AM - Re: Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection (Jesse Saint)
6. 05:33 AM - Re: Torque Wrenches (Link McGarity)
7. 06:39 AM - Re: Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection (Perry Casson)
8. 07:23 AM - Re: AFS primer ()
9. 09:00 AM - Re: Dual Lightspeed? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
10. 09:00 AM - Re: Dual Lightspeed? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
11. 09:36 AM - Re: Dual Lightspeed? (LarryRosen@comcast.net)
12. 09:45 AM - Re: Dual Lightspeed? (Chris Johnston)
13. 10:29 AM - Re: Dual Lightspeed? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
14. 10:44 AM - Re: Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection (linn Walters)
15. 10:48 AM - Re: Dual Lightspeed? (Tim Olson)
16. 12:34 PM - Re: Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection (James K Hovis)
17. 01:45 PM - Re: Dual Lightspeed? (John W. Cox)
18. 04:20 PM - Re: Dual Lightspeed? (Deems Davis)
19. 04:59 PM - Re: Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection (John Testement)
20. 05:13 PM - Re: Dual Lightspeed? (Kevin Belue)
21. 06:22 PM - Re: Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection (Larry Rosen)
22. 07:48 PM - FW: [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit (John W. Cox)
23. 08:48 PM - Re: RV10-List Digest: AFS primer (Phil White)
24. 09:00 PM - Re: FW: [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit (Simon Barber)
25. 09:01 PM - Re: FW: [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit (Simon Barber)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Plexiglass scratch repair |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Ostategrad@cs.com
Problem:
Attempt to remove a scratch in Plexiglas has created a visual ripple distortion
at the repair site.
Cause:
I believe my scratch removal attempt was too localized (just could not get that
scratch out). I think the excessive and localized material removal has caused
the distortion. Scratch length 2-- hand wet sanded and sanded and sanded using
600-grit abrasive then 1000 grit slurry, 2000, and 3000. The repair area
did polish nicely and no haze/fog can be seen. Just that blasted ripple where
the scratch was located.
Fix (?):
Hopefully, there is someone out there that has been there and done that with regards
to being too aggressive in removing a scratch. I would like to know if
anyone has experienced a similar problem and how to fix it? My first thought,
the repair area is too local and needs to be feathered it into the surrounding
area. The unknown is, will this work or only succeed in making the distortion
larger?
Thanks,
Tim
Trying to help a friend, should have stayed home.
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: What Wire for Wiring? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
You're correct to assume I'm not parting with any electrical tools.
Riveting tools some day may go (I doubt it) but electrical, never.
I use them all the time for other projects.
But, here's a good list for you since it's basically most of them.
http://www.steinair.com/tools.htm
Tim
John W. Cox wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>
> Okay Tim, I'll bite. What is your price for the sale of your cool
> wiring tools? I am ready with Cash $$.
>
> You were kidding?? Oh, Okay, can you list the cool electrical wiring
> tools you won't sell as a start point for beginner's.
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 6:07 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: What Wire for Wiring?
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> Can you tell that once you start wiring you've opened the
> box? :) It's a lot of miscellaneous stuff, but you'll
> absolutely save some money doing it, and go away with some
> cool tools for your toolbox too. (Or sell them to the next
> guy)
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I just got through priming my VS, Rudder, and the rear spar to the HS
this weekend. I used the AFS gray primer/sealer and liked the results.
My application wasn't perfect, but I honestly believe it was my
technique ( or lack there of) that was the culprit. I chose AFS because
it's water based so lower flammability issues (I'm working in my
basement), lower fumes, and toxicity. I still wore a mask, but no one
upstairs complained and I did have a window and door open with a fan
running. I really can't rank it because I haven't used anything else,
but it was easy to apply (Harbor Freight HVLP gun) and cleanup. I'm
going to start smashing rivets tonight so I'll let you know how it holds
up to that process. So I tentatively give it a thumbs up, but we'll see
for sure after I abuse it a little.
FYI, I also chose to go the Sanchem route vs. alodine, again trying to
avoid toxic chemicals to maximum extent possible. This was also easy to
use, but it didn't give me a warm fuzzy that the treatment is actually
took. The color change was pretty uneven in places and on the whole,
very light. I followed the directions to the letter so hopefully all is
well, but there's know way to know for sure.
Todd
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Dsyvert@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 10:18 PM
Subject: RV10-List: AFS primer
Group,
I searched Matronics and VansAirforce on AFS primer. My questions
are:
1) Do you use it? If yes why? If not, why not?
2) On a scale of zero to ten do you think it is good? One being worse
than no primer; Two being equivalent to no primer; Four being as good as
SW988; Six beings as good Var-prime; and ten being as good as epoxy.
3) It seems that AFS is really a fabric covering company. Does anyone
know if they have any major customers like Boeing or has any of the
majors tested it?
4) Is there any long term tests?
5) Any other thoughts?
I like the idea of it being more environmentally friendly to me, but
there does not seem to be a lot of information out there. I am a bit
concerned it not having a SW or PPG name on it. You would think that
these companies would have come up with something similar.
I plan on calling them tomorrow with similar questions.
Thanks
Dave Syvertson
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Accidents in RVsAccidents in RVs |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Link McGarity <wv4i@bellsouth.net>
Russ, My RV6 stalls at abt 48mph/55 mph, avg 1450 gross. Can't comment
on RV-10 as I'm at elevator bldg stage. My comments go to wing loading,
forgiveness factor of various airframes, complexity of instrumentation
and systems, take off distances, etc..
Link McGarity
#40622
RV6/N42GF/flying
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
The kit comes with (or at least used to) a switching breaker (5A) for the
boost pump. For Injected engines, you need a 10A. You can just switch out
the breaker and change the size of wire, if necessary, based on the amperage
and the length of the run. You don't ever, that I can think of, need the
boost pump when the master is off, and you mainly just use it for startup
when the master is on, of course. You definitely do not want to run it all
the time when the ignition switch is in the RUN position. Just a breaker
would certainly not be the way to go, even if it is a push/pull breaker.
You want a switch, but again, that is what the kit comes with. It just
happens to have the breaker in the switch as well (switching breaker) to
keep things simple.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry Casson
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 10:21 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection
--> RV10-List message posted by: Perry Casson <pcasson@sasktel.net>
Hi All,
The Van's RV-10 wiring harness kit is designed for a carbureted engine with
a boost pump. I'm
installing a fuel injected engine so need to make some modifications. It
looks as if the easy thing
would be just to install a 10A breaker and upsize the wire to convert the
boost pump circuit to a
injection pump circuit but is that really what is best? Seems to me we want
that pump running as
long as the ignition switch is in a run position and not switched with the
master on/off. Like to
hear what others are doing.
Thanks
Perry Casson - still wiring....
Regina, Canada
--
--
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Torque Wrenches |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Link McGarity <wv4i@bellsouth.net>
You'll need in-lbs and ft-lbs. Drive sizes can be accommodated with
adapters, although with extensions you technically incur a correction
factor, math. Source. Get good ones. Harbor Freight, avoid re Q
wrenches, IMHO.
Link McGarity
#40622
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Perry Casson <pcasson@sasktel.net>
So I think you are telling me somewhere on the large lump in the corner of the
shop (aka io540) is a
mechanical fuel pump and the electric one is just a backup? I guess I better read
that stack of
manuals and ask questions less....
I guess I've missed a step in technology between carbureted C150's and EFI where
everything is
electric.
Thanks,
Perry Casson
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 6:32 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
You don't ever, that I can think of, need the
boost pump when the master is off, and you mainly just use it for startup
when the master is on, of course. You definitely do not want to run it all
the time when the ignition switch is in the RUN position.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> RV10-List message posted by: <seanblair@adelphia.net>
Hi Dave,
I'm well into my construction process and have used the AFS white primer the whole
time. My impression of it is good so far. It's very easy to work with and
the water based composition is a biggy for me because I have to run an LP heater
in the uninsulated hangar where I build in Colorado.
I have never tried the other brands you mention, but did try the Sherwin Williams
Wash Primer that Van's uses on the rudder. I much prefer the AFS.
You should still use breathing protection with this stuff.
I recommend using Alumiprep, and Scotch Brite Pads for prep as well. Once the
primer dries, it's fairly tough.
If you want to check out more, my builder's site is: http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/
Lots of primer pics there.
Good luck,
Sean Blair
#40225
---- Dsyvert@aol.com wrote:
> Group,
>
> I searched Matronics and VansAirforce on AFS primer. My questions are:
>
> 1) Do you use it? If yes why? If not, why not?
> 2) On a scale of zero to ten do you think it is good? One being worse than
> no primer; Two being equivalent to no primer; Four being as good as SW988;
> Six beings as good Var-prime; and ten being as good as epoxy.
> 3) It seems that AFS is really a fabric covering company. Does anyone know
> if they have any major customers like Boeing or has any of the majors tested
> it?
> 4) Is there any long term tests?
> 5) Any other thoughts?
>
> I like the idea of it being more environmentally friendly to me, but there
> does not seem to be a lot of information out there. I am a bit concerned it
> not having a SW or PPG name on it. You would think that these companies would
> have come up with something similar.
>
> I plan on calling them tomorrow with similar questions.
>
> Thanks
> Dave Syvertson
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Dual Lightspeed? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Just to throw a skew on this, Allen HATES Lightspeed ignitions,
especially dual. He sees better performance in the test stand off of
mags and the install, and Klaus, can be a serious PITA compared to mags.
Even with his strong objection (which he still mutters something under
his breath when LSE comes up) I felt there is enough evidence out there
to go with dual Lightspeeds. Mind you, that was my dual lightspeed
IO-540-X on display at BPE's booth this last Airventure, but he wasn't
happy about the LSE on it.
Allen and his family were absolutely wonderful to work with and I bow
to their much greater knowledge in engine building. But I had my mind
set on the dual LSE's and they graciously accommodated that. The engine
still turned out beautifully and is a work of art. Oh ya, and I have a
standing offer for him to rip off the Lightspeed and put in good ole
mags anytime. :-)
If the eMag guys had their 6 cyl version ready I probably would have
went with those. I was back in Texas this last weekend chatting with
some of the guys in the know and the eMag guys have some really cool
things they are working on and are moving to a new building to ramp up
production. They are well aware that they are missing out on a huge
opportunity with the 6cyl market and will hopefully have something out
next year.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Holding Pattern
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gorejr@bellsouth.net
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Dual Lightspeed?
--> RV10-List message posted by: <gorejr@bellsouth.net>
Before you decide you might talk to some larger players in the engine
building business like BPE. They are building my engine and said they
would not consider building it with either the Lightspeed or Lazar
systems. They have had to many problems. They are building mine with 2
Bendix mags. As an aside I have the Lazar on my mooney and have not had
a problem. There is supposed to be a new system coming out this next
year that is superior to these 2 according to BPE. Good luck! Jim
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Dual Lightspeed? |
One of the things I posted a while back was a summary of a
conversation I had with a instructor at a Sportair workshop. He is a
long time A&P/IA, teaches A&P at a university in the DC area, EAA
contributor, blah, blah, blah, knows his stuff and is a smart guy.
Basically his thought on the matter was that with a single mag and a EI,
the flame front would no longer meet at the optimum point because of the
differences in timing. Now he didn't have any evidence that this would
cause any problems, but his feeling was that it is less than optimum.
This is why Klaus says that the addition of a second LSE wouldn't
improve things very much, but it also shows that flame front propagation
does have a measurable effect.
This was one of the key factors that led me to make the decision on
dual LSE's. There could also be a negative effect of additional stress
if the flame front is no longer meeting in the center of the piston, but
again I have no evidence of this and it was just a possibility the
Sportair instructor mentioned. Wave propagation isn't the easiest thing
to model but the guys at GAMI and some at Lycoming/Continental are doing
a lot to understand it. This is the same reason you now see odd shaped
piston heads in high performance applications, to get optimal wave
propagation and focus the shockwaves in the cylinder.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 fuselage - still in Texas
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 7:00 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Dual Lightspeed?
Flame front propagation is a fascinating topic. F/A mixture is hotter
near the exhaust valve that a comparatively cooler intake valve. Heat is
a catalyst for combustion. If it is a charged carbon deposit and
ignites a mixture at other than the required timing it gets its own name
- Detonation. If the event happens before the piston is ready to
provide the power-stroke and it is before the exalted event, it is
called PRE - ignition. Read the GAMI site. The theory is they both
meet in the middle in perfect harmony. Distributor, Mag timing and
Electronic timing and all things spark related need to change with the
change of engine load and rpm. A finite setting does not enhance this
phenomena.
The phrase Optimum is a mis-leader in that it is the better of a poor
trade off. PRISM will address this need for a changing advanced spark
curve. One of the vulnerabilities of Mags is they are Primeval - Brain
Dead simple and reliable at a single setting throughout a range of
performance requirements.
Everyone building should make their personal decision based on research
rather than popularity of the moment.
John Cox
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Dual Lightspeed? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: LarryRosen@comcast.net
In fact BPE no longer offers a lightspeed option. They will sell the engine less
one or 2 mags, make the appropriate modifications required so you can install
the lightspeed(s).
Mike, I think it was the issues they had with your lightspeeds that convinced them
to go that way.
I am going with 2 mags and if and when a pmag comes out then make the transition.
Larry Rosen
#356
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)"
> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
> Just to throw a skew on this, Allen HATES Lightspeed ignitions,
> especially dual. He sees better performance in the test stand off of
> mags and the install, and Klaus, can be a serious PITA compared to mags.
> Even with his strong objection (which he still mutters something under
> his breath when LSE comes up) I felt there is enough evidence out there
> to go with dual Lightspeeds. Mind you, that was my dual lightspeed
> IO-540-X on display at BPE's booth this last Airventure, but he wasn't
> happy about the LSE on it.
>
> Allen and his family were absolutely wonderful to work with and I bow
> to their much greater knowledge in engine building. But I had my mind
> set on the dual LSE's and they graciously accommodated that. The engine
> still turned out beautifully and is a work of art. Oh ya, and I have a
> standing offer for him to rip off the Lightspeed and put in good ole
> mags anytime. :-)
>
> If the eMag guys had their 6 cyl version ready I probably would have
> went with those. I was back in Texas this last weekend chatting with
> some of the guys in the know and the eMag guys have some really cool
> things they are working on and are moving to a new building to ramp up
> production. They are well aware that they are missing out on a huge
> opportunity with the 6cyl market and will hopefully have something out
> next year.
>
> Michael Sausen
> -10 #352 Holding Pattern
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> gorejr@bellsouth.net
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:55 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Dual Lightspeed?
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: <gorejr@bellsouth.net>
>
> Before you decide you might talk to some larger players in the engine
> building business like BPE. They are building my engine and said they
> would not consider building it with either the Lightspeed or Lazar
> systems. They have had to many problems. They are building mine with 2
> Bendix mags. As an aside I have the Lazar on my mooney and have not had
> a problem. There is supposed to be a new system coming out this next
> year that is superior to these 2 according to BPE. Good luck! Jim
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Dual Lightspeed? |
>>. This is the same reason you now see odd shaped piston heads in high
performance applications, to get optimal wave propagation and focus the
shockwaves in the cylinder.
I think I agree with all except the above, because mostly (at least in
the automotive world) the piston dome shape is as a direct result of
the size and shape of the combustion chamber in the cylinder head, and
how much compression you want. You also end up having to have valve
relief areas on the head of the piston depending on the lift of the
camshaft profile so that the valves don't crash into the top of the
piston. I think (just a hunch) the effect of wave propagation would be
a very difficult thing to test by changing the shape of the top of the
piston. Aftermarket cylinder heads for performance applications can
have differently shaped combustion chambers (heart shaped, etc) and
designs that have the valves sitting at a different angle, but this is
an attempt to increase and optimize airflow. The sparkplug location is
the thing I've heard of most being used as a tool in the hunt for a more
optimal charge ignition. I suspect that optimizing the combustion
chamber (including the top of the piston) for the speed at which the
charge burns would be a tail chasing adventure, because you'd never get
exactly the same conditions for each test. Too many variables.
Mixture, slight changes in actual octane ratings of fuel, timing,
cylinder leakage, charge contamination (water, oil). I guess you could
build a sealed combustion chamber of a specific shape, compress gas in
it, and ignite it, but you wouldn't be taking account of the movement of
the air through the cylinder. Also, you'd basically be building a bomb
:-).
These are all things that I just think based on experience. I don't
actually know anything. Engineers?
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Dual Lightspeed? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
I do believe that was the impression he gave me after my setup. :-)
Didn't help that Klaus sent a used connector that was worthless and then
tried to say it wasn't his problem. I've always had the impression from
others that when the LSE worked, it was great but when it didn't, Klaus
could be a pain to get a solution out of. Goes back to the whole
starter, he said/she said thing with why Sky-tec's starters were being
ripped apart on LSE installs. Klaus still insists it wasn't his fault
and yet he modified his system to reduce the chances of kickback. I
also went with the new Sky-tec Inline HT model rather than the stock PM
model. Little pricier, and heavier, but more compact, lower inrush, and
it has more torque.
I don't see that as a problem for people that really want to run LSE.
BPE does the basic mods necessary for LSE, and then runs it in the test
cell with mags for benchmarking, leaving it to the home builder to do
the LSE install. Tim, wasn't this basically what Aerosport did?
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
LarryRosen@comcast.net
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 11:35 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Dual Lightspeed?
--> RV10-List message posted by: LarryRosen@comcast.net
In fact BPE no longer offers a lightspeed option. They will sell the
engine less one or 2 mags, make the appropriate modifications required
so you can install the lightspeed(s).
Mike, I think it was the issues they had with your lightspeeds that
convinced them to go that way.
I am going with 2 mags and if and when a pmag comes out then make the
transition.
Larry Rosen
#356
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection |
--> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Perry Casson wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: Perry Casson <pcasson@sasktel.net>
>
>So I think you are telling me somewhere on the large lump in the corner of the
shop (aka io540) is a mechanical fuel pump
>
Yup
> and manuals
>
Maybe, but probably not
> and ask questions less....
>
Definitely a NOT!!! It's how we learn. We're not born with knowledge,
just survival instinct. Everything we learn, we learn from others
...... well, mostly ..... we do learn from doing stupid things .....
hmmmmm maybe I'm stretching this a little :-D
>I guess I've missed a step in technology between carbureted C150's and EFI where
everything is
>electric.
>
Oh yeah! I find it amazing that the Feds keep harping on safety ....
safety .... safety ..... and yet they still prevent a certificated
aircraft from enjoying the technology advances since the stone age. I
really believe that electronic ignition (EI) coupled with electronic
fuel injection (EFI) would be a huge step forward in making our engines
more fuel efficient and prevent high cylinder temps on takeoff etc. EI
would eliminate fixed firing advance and EFI would take care of the
changing mixture requirements. But, I guess I tend to dream too much.
Maybe when I have more time to fiddle ..... :-P
Linn
>
>Thanks,
>
>Perry Casson
>
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Dual Lightspeed? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Yeah, they drilled my ring gear for the lightspeed magnets, installed
the crank sensor (and maybe timed it since I never had to adjust it),
and they bolted my coils on the engine, but other than that, it was
up to me to finish it....which wasn't a very hard task overall. They
test ran it with mags.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
> I do believe that was the impression he gave me after my setup. :-)
> Didn't help that Klaus sent a used connector that was worthless and then
> tried to say it wasn't his problem. I've always had the impression from
> others that when the LSE worked, it was great but when it didn't, Klaus
> could be a pain to get a solution out of. Goes back to the whole
> starter, he said/she said thing with why Sky-tec's starters were being
> ripped apart on LSE installs. Klaus still insists it wasn't his fault
> and yet he modified his system to reduce the chances of kickback. I
> also went with the new Sky-tec Inline HT model rather than the stock PM
> model. Little pricier, and heavier, but more compact, lower inrush, and
> it has more torque.
>
> I don't see that as a problem for people that really want to run LSE.
> BPE does the basic mods necessary for LSE, and then runs it in the test
> cell with mags for benchmarking, leaving it to the home builder to do
> the LSE install. Tim, wasn't this basically what Aerosport did?
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> LarryRosen@comcast.net
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 11:35 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Dual Lightspeed?
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: LarryRosen@comcast.net
>
> In fact BPE no longer offers a lightspeed option. They will sell the
> engine less one or 2 mags, make the appropriate modifications required
> so you can install the lightspeed(s).
>
> Mike, I think it was the issues they had with your lightspeeds that
> convinced them to go that way.
>
> I am going with 2 mags and if and when a pmag comes out then make the
> transition.
>
> Larry Rosen
> #356
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection |
The Feds are still in the stone age when alternators/generators lived
extremely short lives and batteries tended to discharge fairly quickly due
to the high draw from old-style electronics. Modern EFI systems have minimal
draw compared to landing lights, etc. Batteries today have AHr ratings for
the wieght unheard of 30 years ago. There's NO REASON for not using
electronic engine monitoring/management.
On 10/23/06, linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
>
> Perry Casson wrote:
>
> >--> RV10-List message posted by: Perry Casson <pcasson@sasktel.net>
> >
> >So I think you are telling me somewhere on the large lump in the corner
> of the shop (aka io540) is a mechanical fuel pump
> >
> Yup
>
> > and manuals
> >
> Maybe, but probably not
>
> > and ask questions less....
> >
> Definitely a NOT!!! It's how we learn. We're not born with knowledge,
> just survival instinct. Everything we learn, we learn from others
> ...... well, mostly ..... we do learn from doing stupid things .....
> hmmmmm maybe I'm stretching this a little :-D
>
> >I guess I've missed a step in technology between carbureted C150's and
> EFI where everything is
> >electric.
> >
> Oh yeah! I find it amazing that the Feds keep harping on safety ....
> safety .... safety ..... and yet they still prevent a certificated
> aircraft from enjoying the technology advances since the stone age. I
> really believe that electronic ignition (EI) coupled with electronic
> fuel injection (EFI) would be a huge step forward in making our engines
> more fuel efficient and prevent high cylinder temps on takeoff etc. EI
> would eliminate fixed firing advance and EFI would take care of the
> changing mixture requirements. But, I guess I tend to dream too much.
> Maybe when I have more time to fiddle ..... :-P
> Linn
>
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Perry Casson
> >
>
>
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Dual Lightspeed? |
Michael, this is exactly the kind of data which keeps the cavity prone
sugar sweetened kool-aid at bay. I agree. I want to know why the
horsepower drop vs. two pre-cambrian magnetos with no timing change on a
dynamometer run.
John
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 8:36 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Dual Lightspeed?
One of the things I posted a while back was a summary of a
conversation I had with a instructor at a Sportair workshop. He is a
long time A&P/IA, teaches A&P at a university in the DC area, EAA
contributor, blah, blah, blah, knows his stuff and is a smart guy.
Basically his thought on the matter was that with a single mag and a EI,
the flame front would no longer meet at the optimum point because of the
differences in timing. Now he didn't have any evidence that this would
cause any problems, but his feeling was that it is less than optimum.
This is why Klaus says that the addition of a second LSE wouldn't
improve things very much, but it also shows that flame front propagation
does have a measurable effect.
This was one of the key factors that led me to make the decision on
dual LSE's. There could also be a negative effect of additional stress
if the flame front is no longer meeting in the center of the piston, but
again I have no evidence of this and it was just a possibility the
Sportair instructor mentioned. Wave propagation isn't the easiest thing
to model but the guys at GAMI and some at Lycoming/Continental are doing
a lot to understand it. This is the same reason you now see odd shaped
piston heads in high performance applications, to get optimal wave
propagation and focus the shockwaves in the cylinder.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 fuselage - still in Texas
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 7:00 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Dual Lightspeed?
Flame front propagation is a fascinating topic. F/A mixture is hotter
near the exhaust valve that a comparatively cooler intake valve. Heat is
a catalyst for combustion. If it is a charged carbon deposit and
ignites a mixture at other than the required timing it gets its own name
- Detonation. If the event happens before the piston is ready to
provide the power-stroke and it is before the exalted event, it is
called PRE - ignition. Read the GAMI site. The theory is they both
meet in the middle in perfect harmony. Distributor, Mag timing and
Electronic timing and all things spark related need to change with the
change of engine load and rpm. A finite setting does not enhance this
phenomena.
The phrase Optimum is a mis-leader in that it is the better of a poor
trade off. PRISM will address this need for a changing advanced spark
curve. One of the vulnerabilities of Mags is they are Primeval - Brain
Dead simple and reliable at a single setting throughout a range of
performance requirements.
Everyone building should make their personal decision based on research
rather than popularity of the moment.
John Cox
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Dual Lightspeed? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
John, Good Luck in finding out the answer to this. I really hope that
you (or someone does). I asked both Allen Barrett and Klaus S. directly.
>From Allen I got: " I really don't know why it is this way perhaps it
has something to do with Altitude, The engines on the dyno might perform
better @ altitude with the EI than they do here on the ground, but I
have no way of simulating altitude differences here in the dyno room".
From Klaus S. " That's just what I'd expect an engine builder to say,
they just don't want to be bothered with the extra work to hook up the
LS EI to the dyno. (according to Allen there is several hours extra work
involved). If it were true why would all of the Reno racers be running
my ignition?"
So, that's the extent of what I was able to get from 2 of the experts.
Perhaps someone with more engine knowledge/wisdom than I who knows the
more appropriate questions to ask could help to narrow down the mystery.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing (A Misnomer!)
http://deemsrv10.com/
John W. Cox wrote:
> Michael, this is exactly the kind of data which keeps the cavity prone
> sugar sweetened kool-aid at bay. I agree. I want to know why the
> horsepower drop vs. two pre-cambrian magnetos with no timing change on
> a dynamometer run.
>
> John
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *RV
> Builder (Michael Sausen)
> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2006 8:36 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Dual Lightspeed?
>
> One of the things I posted a while back was a summary of a
> conversation I had with a instructor at a Sportair workshop. He is a
> long time A&P/IA, teaches A&P at a university in the DC area, EAA
> contributor, blah, blah, blah, knows his stuff and is a smart guy.
> Basically his thought on the matter was that with a single mag and a
> EI, the flame front would no longer meet at the optimum point because
> of the differences in timing. Now he didn't have any evidence that
> this would cause any problems, but his feeling was that it is less
> than optimum. This is why Klaus says that the addition of a second LSE
> wouldn't improve things very much, but it also shows that flame front
> propagation does have a measurable effect.
>
> This was one of the key factors that led me to make the decision on
> dual LSE's. There could also be a negative effect of additional stress
> if the flame front is no longer meeting in the center of the piston,
> but again I have no evidence of this and it was just a possibility the
> Sportair instructor mentioned. Wave propagation isn't the easiest
> thing to model but the guys at GAMI and some at Lycoming/Continental
> are doing a lot to understand it. This is the same reason you now see
> odd shaped piston heads in high performance applications, to get
> optimal wave propagation and focus the shockwaves in the cylinder.
>
> Michael Sausen
>
> -10 #352 fuselage - still in Texas
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *John W. Cox
> *Sent:* Friday, October 20, 2006 7:00 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: Dual Lightspeed?
>
> Flame front propagation is a fascinating topic. F/A mixture is hotter
> near the exhaust valve that a comparatively cooler intake valve. Heat
> is a catalyst for combustion. If it is a charged carbon deposit and
> ignites a mixture at other than the required timing it gets its own
> name Detonation. If the event happens before the piston is ready to
> provide the power-stroke and it is before the exalted event, it is
> called PRE ignition. Read the GAMI site. The theory is they both
> meet in the middle in perfect harmony. Distributor, Mag timing and
> Electronic timing and all things spark related need to change with the
> change of engine load and rpm. A finite setting does not enhance this
> phenomena.
>
> The phrase Optimum is a mis-leader in that it is the better of a poor
> trade off. PRISM will address this need for a changing advanced spark
> curve. One of the vulnerabilities of Mags is they are Primeval Brain
> Dead simple and reliable at a single setting throughout a range of
> performance requirements.
>
> Everyone building should make their personal decision based on
> research rather than popularity of the moment.
>
> John Cox
>
> < Forum Email RV10-List The>< to Navigator Features List Matronics><
> Subscriptions the as such utilities>< Chat, Browse, 7-Day Search><
> much and Photoshare,>< - FORUMS WEB MATRONICS>< Web via available also
> now content>< - MATRONICS WIKI LIST>< info>< - List Web Site><
> generous your for you Thank><>
>
>* *
>
>* *
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>*http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>**
>
>* *
>
>*
>
>
>*
>
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Testement" <jwt@roadmapscoaching.com>
Why would the fuel injected engine require a different breaker size for the
boost pump?
John Testement
jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
Finish kit - wheel fairings, cowl prep
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 8:32 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
The kit comes with (or at least used to) a switching breaker (5A) for the
boost pump. For Injected engines, you need a 10A. You can just switch out
the breaker and change the size of wire, if necessary, based on the amperage
and the length of the run. You don't ever, that I can think of, need the
boost pump when the master is off, and you mainly just use it for startup
when the master is on, of course. You definitely do not want to run it all
the time when the ignition switch is in the RUN position. Just a breaker
would certainly not be the way to go, even if it is a push/pull breaker.
You want a switch, but again, that is what the kit comes with. It just
happens to have the breaker in the switch as well (switching breaker) to
keep things simple.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry Casson
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 10:21 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection
--> RV10-List message posted by: Perry Casson <pcasson@sasktel.net>
Hi All,
The Van's RV-10 wiring harness kit is designed for a carbureted engine with
a boost pump. I'm installing a fuel injected engine so need to make some
modifications. It looks as if the easy thing would be just to install a 10A
breaker and upsize the wire to convert the boost pump circuit to a injection
pump circuit but is that really what is best? Seems to me we want that pump
running as long as the ignition switch is in a run position and not switched
with the master on/off. Like to hear what others are doing.
Thanks
Perry Casson - still wiring....
Regina, Canada
--
--
--
--
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Dual Lightspeed? |
The Cafe Foundation has done research on magneto vs. the Jeff Rose
electronic ignition. This is a 3 part report that has interesting
results - it appears that magnetoes are slightly faster but the
electronic ignition is more efficient. Read at:
http://cafefoundation.org/v2/research_reports.php
Kevin Belue
----- Original Message -----
From: John W. Cox
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 3:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Dual Lightspeed?
Michael, this is exactly the kind of data which keeps the cavity prone
sugar sweetened kool-aid at bay. I agree. I want to know why the
horsepower drop vs. two pre-cambrian magnetos with no timing change on a
dynamometer run.
John
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 8:36 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Dual Lightspeed?
One of the things I posted a while back was a summary of a
conversation I had with a instructor at a Sportair workshop. He is a
long time A&P/IA, teaches A&P at a university in the DC area, EAA
contributor, blah, blah, blah, knows his stuff and is a smart guy.
Basically his thought on the matter was that with a single mag and a EI,
the flame front would no longer meet at the optimum point because of the
differences in timing. Now he didn't have any evidence that this would
cause any problems, but his feeling was that it is less than optimum.
This is why Klaus says that the addition of a second LSE wouldn't
improve things very much, but it also shows that flame front propagation
does have a measurable effect.
This was one of the key factors that led me to make the decision on
dual LSE's. There could also be a negative effect of additional stress
if the flame front is no longer meeting in the center of the piston, but
again I have no evidence of this and it was just a possibility the
Sportair instructor mentioned. Wave propagation isn't the easiest thing
to model but the guys at GAMI and some at Lycoming/Continental are doing
a lot to understand it. This is the same reason you now see odd shaped
piston heads in high performance applications, to get optimal wave
propagation and focus the shockwaves in the cylinder.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 fuselage - still in Texas
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 7:00 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Dual Lightspeed?
Flame front propagation is a fascinating topic. F/A mixture is hotter
near the exhaust valve that a comparatively cooler intake valve. Heat is
a catalyst for combustion. If it is a charged carbon deposit and
ignites a mixture at other than the required timing it gets its own name
- Detonation. If the event happens before the piston is ready to
provide the power-stroke and it is before the exalted event, it is
called PRE - ignition. Read the GAMI site. The theory is they both
meet in the middle in perfect harmony. Distributor, Mag timing and
Electronic timing and all things spark related need to change with the
change of engine load and rpm. A finite setting does not enhance this
phenomena.
The phrase Optimum is a mis-leader in that it is the better of a poor
trade off. PRISM will address this need for a changing advanced spark
curve. One of the vulnerabilities of Mags is they are Primeval - Brain
Dead simple and reliable at a single setting throughout a range of
performance requirements.
Everyone building should make their personal decision based on
research rather than popularity of the moment.
John Cox
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
The carburated fuel pump is a Facet Pump and the injected engine uses an
ES Airflow fuel pump. Thats the difference, but I do not know if there
is any difference in power requirements. The electrical design per
Van's wiring diagram calls for a 5 amp toggle switch breaker with 18 AWG
wire. And no note for a difference between the 2 pumps.
Larry
John Testement wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Testement" <jwt@roadmapscoaching.com>
>
> Why would the fuel injected engine require a different breaker size for the
> boost pump?
>
> John Testement
> jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
> 40321
> Richmond, VA
> Finish kit - wheel fairings, cowl prep
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 8:32 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
>
> The kit comes with (or at least used to) a switching breaker (5A) for the
> boost pump. For Injected engines, you need a 10A. You can just switch out
> the breaker and change the size of wire, if necessary, based on the amperage
> and the length of the run. You don't ever, that I can think of, need the
> boost pump when the master is off, and you mainly just use it for startup
> when the master is on, of course. You definitely do not want to run it all
> the time when the ignition switch is in the RUN position. Just a breaker
> would certainly not be the way to go, even if it is a push/pull breaker.
> You want a switch, but again, that is what the kit comes with. It just
> happens to have the breaker in the switch as well (switching breaker) to
> keep things simple.
>
> Jesse Saint
> I-TEC, Inc.
> jesse@itecusa.org
> www.itecusa.org
> W: 352-465-4545
> C: 352-427-0285
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry Casson
> Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 10:21 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Vans wiring kit - mods for fuel injection
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Perry Casson <pcasson@sasktel.net>
>
> Hi All,
>
> The Van's RV-10 wiring harness kit is designed for a carbureted engine with
> a boost pump. I'm installing a fuel injected engine so need to make some
> modifications. It looks as if the easy thing would be just to install a 10A
> breaker and upsize the wire to convert the boost pump circuit to a injection
> pump circuit but is that really what is best? Seems to me we want that pump
> running as long as the ignition switch is in a run position and not switched
> with the master on/off. Like to hear what others are doing.
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Perry Casson - still wiring....
> Regina, Canada
>
>
>
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | FW: [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit |
My apologies to the world wide group but Fred's post below is just too
good not to share in the spirit of improved knowledge. Can anyone here
agree to the value of data like Tim and Michael present? Or is it just
a bunch of Lurkers from OSH?
I am going to Google "Speed with Economy". If it is available from
Technical Books, then all the better. What say the rest of you on
Moreno's Aviator's Challenge?
John Cox
#40600
________________________________
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of
Fred Moreno
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 1:38 PM
Subject: [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit
This forum is superb for exchanging ideas, problems, and solutions, but
we seem to be very short on hard data. Maybe that is because it is hard
to get, or because some people don't know how to calibrate and test
carefully, or some don't want to know. As a result we have a lot of
anecdotal evidence, much of which is clearly wrong. Example: one LIV-P
owner proudly announced at the Lancair dinner he was getting 305 knots
at 70%. I had flown in that the airplane, and knew the airspeed
indicator was not calibrated, and the owner's calculation was based on
an E6B which meant it had a built in 20 knot error based on OAT and
compressibility effects. Put that in, and you get about 285 knots
pretty much like everyone else. And he really had no clue about the
exact power setting, just a guess.
Maybe we just prefer rumors and BS to facts. Perhaps that is why rumors
are so popular. Facts are such nasty things. They just won't go away.
I propose we make a concerted effort to gather and exchange
reproducible, defensible data, and share it with the group. Not the
swing of the needle in an updraft or satisfying GPS reading while
screaming downwind, but data that is good enough for us to compare the
relative performance of props, modifications, etc.
With the new Chelton (and other) instrumentation, factory calibrated far
better than your steam gauges, good GPS data, and careful data recording
(OAT, Altitude, fuel flow, etc.) we can get excellent data without a
long and painful calibration process. The new Electronics International
MVP-50 is also a superb instrument, built to good standards with
reasonably accurate sensors and ability to record and regurgitate vast
amounts of data. When I was ordering mine, I found that some of their
customers have used the extra channels to monitor things like engine
cooling air delta P, firewall temperature (how hot is that epoxy REALLY
getting?), and other nuggets of information useful to the rest of us.
This rant is motivated by last night's rereading Kent Paser's excellent
book, Speed with Economy (1994, possibly available through EAA). It
documents Kent's 20+ years of modifications with his 160 HP Mustang II.
Kent is an aeronautical engineer, and took the time to calibrate his
instruments and conduct careful experiments making changes one at a time
to isolate what worked and what didn't. Net result: an increase of 64
MPH in top speed and 59 MPH in cruise speed. Slowed to his old economy
cruise speed, fuel flow was cut IN HALF.
Our Lancairs already incorporate a lot of the features that Kent
explored and adopted, but most of us have failed to learn his (and
other) lessons about exhaust systems, engine air cooling, exhaust air
leakage in low pressure areas, where we should lavish our attention to
detail and such.
If we can collect and disseminate GOOD data in a format that another can
study, digest, and learn, then we can advance our aviation interests
even better than we are now doing.
Moreno's challenge: produce and publish (here, of course) "test reports"
documenting what you measured, how you measured it, if and how you
checked your instruments, and any helpful comments. I promise that if I
ever get my Lancair IV finished (early next year?) I will keep testing
and recording and share the news, good or bad, because it should not be
an ego thing, but a sharing of information thing to help advance our
"state-of-the-art."
I recall one year that Brent Regan and I walked around Oshkosh trying to
capture the essence of the place in a few short words. The Greeks
thought the world consisted of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. We
concluded that Oshkosh consisted of Hope, Denial (of the laws of
physics), Money, and Bullshit.
It need not be that way. Advancement comes from knowledge, and
knowledge comes (in part) from testing, experiments, and real data.
Fred Moreno, Thirsting for Data
--
20/10/2006
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RV10-List Digest: AFS primer |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Phil White <philwhite9@aol.com>
Dave: I have used AFS primer on my -10 for interior mating surfaces, and am very
satisfied with it. Can't speak to the long-term effectiveness, or its suitability
under their finish coatings, but they seem to be a reputable firm.
Phil #40220 (doors)
Time: 07:18:23 PM PST US
From: Dsyvert@aol.com
Subject: RV10-List: AFS primer
Group,
I searched Matronics and VansAirforce on AFS primer. My questions are:
1) Do you use it? If yes why? If not, why not? YES. NON-TOXIC IN THE GARAGE.
2) On a scale of zero to ten do you think it is good? One being worse than
no primer; Two being equivalent to no primer; Four being as good as SW988;
Six beings as good Var-prime; and ten being as good as epoxy. I RATE IT A FIVE
3) It seems that AFS is really a fabric covering company. Does anyone know
if they have any major customers like Boeing or has any of the majors tested
it?
4) Is there any long term tests?
5) Any other thoughts?
I like the idea of it being more environmentally friendly to me, but there
does not seem to be a lot of information out there. I am a bit concerned it
not having a SW or PPG name on it. You would think that these companies would
have come up with something similar.
I plan on calling them tomorrow with similar questions.
Thanks
Dave Syvertson
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: FW: [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Simon Barber <simon@superduper.net>
One step towards us having data we can make sense of would be for
someone to put together a short FAQ on how to gather and report
performance data - ideally together with a form that can be filled out
with data. Using the form when reporting would make it obvious what
units were used, and which pieces of data were missing, etc. This would
be a great step towards making results comparable, or at least knowing
that they are not.
Simon
John W. Cox wrote:
>
> My apologies to the world wide group but Freds post below is just too
> good not to share in the spirit of improved knowledge. Can anyone here
> agree to the value of data like Tim and Michael present? Or is it just
> a bunch of Lurkers from OSH?
>
> I am going to Google Speed with Economy. If it is available from
> Technical Books, then all the better. What say the rest of you on
> Morenos Aviators Challenge?
>
> John Cox
>
> #40600
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf
> Of *Fred Moreno
> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2006 1:38 PM
> *To:* Lancair Mailing List
> *Subject:* [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit
>
> This forum is superb for exchanging ideas, problems, and solutions,
> but we seem to be very short on hard data. Maybe that is because it is
> hard to get, or because some people dont know how to calibrate and
> test carefully, or some dont want to know. As a result we have a lot
> of anecdotal evidence, much of which is clearly wrong. Example: one
> LIV-P owner proudly announced at the Lancair dinner he was getting 305
> knots at 70%. I had flown in that the airplane, and knew the airspeed
> indicator was not calibrated, and the owners calculation was based on
> an E6B which meant it had a built in 20 knot error based on OAT and
> compressibility effects. Put that in, and you get about 285 knots
> pretty much like everyone else. And he really had no clue about the
> exact power setting, just a guess.
>
> Maybe we just prefer rumors and BS to facts. Perhaps that is why
> rumors are so popular. Facts are such nasty things. They just wont go
> away.
>
> I propose we make a concerted effort to gather and exchange
> reproducible, defensible data, and share it with the group. Not the
> swing of the needle in an updraft or satisfying GPS reading while
> screaming downwind, but data that is good enough for us to compare the
> relative performance of props, modifications, etc.
>
> With the new Chelton (and other) instrumentation, factory calibrated
> far better than your steam gauges, good GPS data, and careful data
> recording (OAT, Altitude, fuel flow, etc.) we can get excellent data
> without a long and painful calibration process. The new Electronics
> International MVP-50 is also a superb instrument, built to good
> standards with reasonably accurate sensors and ability to record and
> regurgitate vast amounts of data. When I was ordering mine, I found
> that some of their customers have used the extra channels to monitor
> things like engine cooling air delta P, firewall temperature (how hot
> is that epoxy REALLY getting?), and other nuggets of information
> useful to the rest of us.
>
> This rant is motivated by last nights rereading Kent Pasers
> excellent book, _Speed with Economy_ (1994, possibly available through
> EAA). It documents Kents 20+ years of modifications with his 160 HP
> Mustang II. Kent is an aeronautical engineer, and took the time to
> calibrate his instruments and conduct careful experiments making
> changes one at a time to isolate what worked and what didnt. Net
> result: an increase of *64 MPH* in top speed and *59 MPH* in cruise
> speed. Slowed to his old economy cruise speed, fuel flow was cut IN HALF.
>
> Our Lancairs already incorporate a lot of the features that Kent
> explored and adopted, but most of us have failed to learn his (and
> other) lessons about exhaust systems, engine air cooling, exhaust air
> leakage in low pressure areas, where we should lavish our attention to
> detail and such.
>
> If we can collect and disseminate GOOD data in a format that another
> can study, digest, and learn, then we can advance our aviation
> interests even better than we are now doing.
>
> Morenos challenge: produce and publish (here, of course) test
> reports documenting what you measured, how you measured it, if and
> how you checked your instruments, and any helpful comments. I promise
> that if I ever get my Lancair IV finished (early next year?) I will
> keep testing and recording and share the news, good or bad, because it
> should not be an ego thing, but a sharing of information thing to help
> advance our state-of-the-art.
>
> I recall one year that Brent Regan and I walked around Oshkosh trying
> to capture the essence of the place in a few short words. The Greeks
> thought the world consisted of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. We
> concluded that Oshkosh consisted of Hope, Denial (of the laws of
> physics), Money, and Bullshit.
>
> It need not be that way. Advancement comes from knowledge, and
> knowledge comes (in part) from testing, experiments, and real *data*.
>
> Fred Moreno, Thirsting for Data
>
>
> --
> 20/10/2006
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: FW: [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Simon Barber <simon@superduper.net>
One step towards us having data we can make sense of would be for
someone to put together a short FAQ on how to gather and report
performance data - ideally together with a form that can be filled out
with data. Using the form when reporting would make it obvious what
units were used, and which pieces of data were missing, etc. This would
be a great step towards making results comparable, or at least making it
clear where they are not.
Simon
40420
John W. Cox wrote:
>
> My apologies to the world wide group but Freds post below is just too
> good not to share in the spirit of improved knowledge. Can anyone here
> agree to the value of data like Tim and Michael present? Or is it just
> a bunch of Lurkers from OSH?
>
> I am going to Google Speed with Economy. If it is available from
> Technical Books, then all the better. What say the rest of you on
> Morenos Aviators Challenge?
>
> John Cox
>
> #40600
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf
> Of *Fred Moreno
> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2006 1:38 PM
> *To:* Lancair Mailing List
> *Subject:* [LML] Hope, Denial, Money and Bullshit
>
> This forum is superb for exchanging ideas, problems, and solutions,
> but we seem to be very short on hard data. Maybe that is because it is
> hard to get, or because some people dont know how to calibrate and
> test carefully, or some dont want to know. As a result we have a lot
> of anecdotal evidence, much of which is clearly wrong. Example: one
> LIV-P owner proudly announced at the Lancair dinner he was getting 305
> knots at 70%. I had flown in that the airplane, and knew the airspeed
> indicator was not calibrated, and the owners calculation was based on
> an E6B which meant it had a built in 20 knot error based on OAT and
> compressibility effects. Put that in, and you get about 285 knots
> pretty much like everyone else. And he really had no clue about the
> exact power setting, just a guess.
>
> Maybe we just prefer rumors and BS to facts. Perhaps that is why
> rumors are so popular. Facts are such nasty things. They just wont go
> away.
>
> I propose we make a concerted effort to gather and exchange
> reproducible, defensible data, and share it with the group. Not the
> swing of the needle in an updraft or satisfying GPS reading while
> screaming downwind, but data that is good enough for us to compare the
> relative performance of props, modifications, etc.
>
> With the new Chelton (and other) instrumentation, factory calibrated
> far better than your steam gauges, good GPS data, and careful data
> recording (OAT, Altitude, fuel flow, etc.) we can get excellent data
> without a long and painful calibration process. The new Electronics
> International MVP-50 is also a superb instrument, built to good
> standards with reasonably accurate sensors and ability to record and
> regurgitate vast amounts of data. When I was ordering mine, I found
> that some of their customers have used the extra channels to monitor
> things like engine cooling air delta P, firewall temperature (how hot
> is that epoxy REALLY getting?), and other nuggets of information
> useful to the rest of us.
>
> This rant is motivated by last nights rereading Kent Pasers
> excellent book, _Speed with Economy_ (1994, possibly available through
> EAA). It documents Kents 20+ years of modifications with his 160 HP
> Mustang II. Kent is an aeronautical engineer, and took the time to
> calibrate his instruments and conduct careful experiments making
> changes one at a time to isolate what worked and what didnt. Net
> result: an increase of *64 MPH* in top speed and *59 MPH* in cruise
> speed. Slowed to his old economy cruise speed, fuel flow was cut IN HALF.
>
> Our Lancairs already incorporate a lot of the features that Kent
> explored and adopted, but most of us have failed to learn his (and
> other) lessons about exhaust systems, engine air cooling, exhaust air
> leakage in low pressure areas, where we should lavish our attention to
> detail and such.
>
> If we can collect and disseminate GOOD data in a format that another
> can study, digest, and learn, then we can advance our aviation
> interests even better than we are now doing.
>
> Morenos challenge: produce and publish (here, of course) test
> reports documenting what you measured, how you measured it, if and
> how you checked your instruments, and any helpful comments. I promise
> that if I ever get my Lancair IV finished (early next year?) I will
> keep testing and recording and share the news, good or bad, because it
> should not be an ego thing, but a sharing of information thing to help
> advance our state-of-the-art.
>
> I recall one year that Brent Regan and I walked around Oshkosh trying
> to capture the essence of the place in a few short words. The Greeks
> thought the world consisted of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. We
> concluded that Oshkosh consisted of Hope, Denial (of the laws of
> physics), Money, and Bullshit.
>
> It need not be that way. Advancement comes from knowledge, and
> knowledge comes (in part) from testing, experiments, and real *data*.
>
> Fred Moreno, Thirsting for Data
>
>
> --
> 20/10/2006
>
> *
>
>
> *
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|