Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:54 AM - Re: Re: 0-540 E vs C0-540 E vs C (Murray Randall)
2. 03:56 AM - Re: Kits/Family - A Review (William Condon)
3. 04:43 AM - Re: Kits/Family - A Review (Phillips, Jack)
4. 06:19 AM - Re: Post Component Construction Priming (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
5. 06:46 AM - Re: Kits/Family - A Review (Werner Schneider)
6. 10:45 AM - Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: Okay - Okay tell me I'm just sarcastic on the RV-12 (John W. Cox)
7. 11:03 AM - Re: Kits/Family - A Review (John W. Cox)
8. 11:36 AM - Re: Kits/Family - A Review (John W. Cox)
9. 12:05 PM - Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: Okay - Okay tell me I'm just sarcastic on the RV-12 (Kelly McMullen)
10. 02:22 PM - Some Observations after Two Years of Building (Jeff Carpenter)
11. 03:08 PM - Re: Some Observations after Two Years of Building (McGANN, Ron)
12. 05:17 PM - Honda (Paul Walter)
13. 05:22 PM - Re: Some Observations after Two Years of Building (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
14. 05:45 PM - Re: Some Observations after Two Years of Building (Deems Davis)
15. 05:58 PM - Re: glassing rivets into glass (Chris Johnston)
16. 06:19 PM - Re: Some Observations after Two Years of Building (John Dunne)
17. 07:22 PM - Re: glassing rivets into glass (John W. Cox)
18. 07:47 PM - Re: Some Observations after Two Years of Building (Rick)
19. 08:02 PM - Re: glassing rivets into glass (David McNeill)
20. 08:17 PM - Re: glassing rivets into glass (John Jessen)
21. 08:17 PM - Re: Some Observations after Two Years of Building (bob.kaufmann)
22. 08:18 PM - FW: glassing rivets into glass (John Jessen)
23. 08:39 PM - Re: Some Observations after Two Years of Building (Deems Davis)
24. 08:42 PM - Re: Some Observations after Two Years of Building ()
25. 09:17 PM - Re: glassing rivets into glass (John Gonzalez)
26. 09:28 PM - Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: Okay - Okay tell me I'm just sarcastic on the RV-12 ()
27. 09:30 PM - Re: FW: glassing rivets into glass (John Gonzalez)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 0-540 E vs C0-540 E vs C |
An easy way to get all the Type Certificate Data Sheets.....Google in
"type certificate data sheets", conveniently gets you down a few layers
in FAA.gov, in the FAA search window enter lycoming A1D5 say....you'll
get the Lycoming E295 data sheet in PFD format which provides much
interesting information play with it....all the TCD's are available
and make interesting reading Murray
Message 2
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| Subject: | Kits/Family - A Review |
As another Builder Wanna-be (I became a wanna-be in 1999 and have been on
the wanna-be list continuously since), I'll add a perspective that may, or
may not, be of value --
In this thread, there is one missing statistic, and replies missing from one
group. The missing statistic is: how many/what percentage of kits end up in
a garage/storage shed, never to see the light of day again? The missing
perspective is from those previous builders who stopped building - what
happened such that they couldn't / didn't complete their kit? I don't know
what the number/percentage of unfinished kits is, but I know that it is more
than zero.
Certainly, some kits go unfinished because of the death of the owner or the
workshop burns down, but I have to believe that many kits go unfinished
because the newbie simply bites off more than he can chew. As a 20-year
Navy veteran, I continually witnessed every day as outside agencies tried to
shoehorn in one program after another into our workdays - their
justification was that there was always more slop time left to accomplish
the newly important program. But, I always asked the question - if you want
me to spend time on this new program, which old program should I spend less
time on?
Building an airplane undoubtedly takes time, and a prospective builder needs
to do a realistic check, comparing what he/she does with his time now
against what his/her schedule will look like while building. In the
abstract, it may sound easy to extract 5, 10 or 20 hours per week form one's
current calendar (equating to 2 - 8 years to build a 2000 hour aircraft) -
but remember that those 5, 10 or 20 hours must come from somewhere. It may
be easy if you are merely giving up watching TV or surfing the internet.
Likewise, if you are retired or have a nag of a spouse, you might relish the
option of putting your time towards a project. But, if you have a demanding
job, a pending move, or family commitments (and only you can define what
your family commitments are), then it will be more difficult to stay focused
on a project.
After 7 years as a wanna-be, I have chosen to work towards saving money for
my project and make the plunge once I know that I can make the required
commitment to my project. This view may not reflect on the members of this
newsgroup (who are clearly a highly motivated and capable group), nor may it
reflect the exhortations of kit manufacturers, but it does reflect the
reality facing me. And, it has kept me from becoming a statistic in the
group of 'kit unfinished - no current progress'. I'm not certain, but I
think that once one enters the statistic of 'kit unfinished - no current
progress', it is very difficult to get re-motivated to get back to 'kit
unfinished - work in progress'. (my apologies to those who have made this
recovery)
Bill C.
Wanna-be builder
Navy vet, and now a Navy spouse
Naples IT
mgeans@provide.net wrote:
> All,
>
> For those that may be interested and some who may be
> lurking, attached is some observations/converastions that
> my wife and I had based on all of the replies we recieved
> from the Kits and Family thread.
>
> It is a bit long, ~3 pages in Word, but an interesting read
> for those wanting to add thier 2 cents (we describe our
> buidling status scenerio in more detail and invite
> suggestions) and those considering building to have some
> helpful insight.
>
> On another note:
> I fished for a reply with a one liner on the original post
> with no specific replies and will try once more. It may
> have gotten scanned over.
> I have an opportunity to switch careers in which my
> employer will be overseas. If anyone has any expirience or
> knows someone who does, in such matters and what to be wary
> of or be sure you include in your "package" as an employee
> I would like to share more info about the scenerio for your
> feedback. It is a life altering opportunity and I am
> checking all sorts of leads where I could make myself
> knowledgeable before my visit with them.
>
> For those who are considering a build, or know of someone
> who is, I will be downloading all the replies that we
> recieved from this original post into a Word document to
> consolidate all the advice for our and anyone's future use.
> Contact me directly if you would be interested in getting
> this document.
>
> Thanks to all for your help.
>
> Matt Geans
> Builder Wanna-be
Message 3
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| Subject: | Kits/Family - A Review |
Bill, I expect EAA has some statistics on the number of projects
completed vs. projects started. It is probably higher now that most
projects are kits, but for years the number of completed projects was
less than 25%. I personally know of more unfinished (and never likely
to be finished) projects than I do active projects in my area, and we
have a pretty active builder base in our local EAA chapter.
An interesting statistic is that fewer than 1 in 4 builders complete
their projects, but many builders, perhaps 1 in 3, build a second or
third airplane after completing their first one. The RV-10 is my third
airplane project (and my first kit), having worked in steel tube (Pitts
Special), wood (Pietenpol Air Camper) and now aluminum. I'm already
thinking about what kind of plane I'll build next, after the -10 is
finished. The logical choice would be something made of composites, but
I really don't like working with fiberglass.
I think you are smart to consider all these factors before plunging into
building. I find I can pretty consistently average 10 hours a week on
an airplane project while working a full time job that requires some
travel, keeping a newlywed wife happy (it helps that she likes to fly
and is anxious to get the -10 finished so she can be more comfortable
than she is in the back seat of my RV-4), and maintaining and flying the
RV-4 and Pietenpol. More than 10 hours a week becomes somewhat of a
strain.
You're very astute in your statement that "...once one enters the
statistic of 'kit unfinished - no current progress', it is very
difficult to get re-motivated to get back to 'kit unfinished - work in
progress'. " The best way to avoid that is to try to do SOMETHING on
the project every day, even if it is just to look at the plans and
figure out how you're going to do the next step, or plan your instrument
panel, or dream up a paint scheme. Do something to keep the project in
your mind and you will never have to come back to it and say "Now where
was I? What was I doing when I last worked on this? Oh yeah, I had
screwed up and put a big ding in the stabilizer skin". I think a lot of
projects get abandoned because the builder made a mistake and lost
interest, rather than going back and correcting the mistake. There are
very few mistakes in building a plane that can't be fixed, and NO
airplane is flying without a few screw-ups hidden in them somewhere.
Just correct the mistake (either repair it or replace the damaged
component) and move on. By the way, a copy of AC 43.13 is very handy to
have when it comes time to repair something on your project. It is the
BIBLE for how to repair aircraft structures.
Good luck,
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
#40610
Building Elevators now
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Condon
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:55 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Kits/Family - A Review
As another Builder Wanna-be (I became a wanna-be in 1999 and
have been on the wanna-be list continuously since), I'll add a
perspective that may, or may not, be of value --
In this thread, there is one missing statistic, and replies
missing from one group. The missing statistic is: how many/what
percentage of kits end up in a garage/storage shed, never to see the
light of day again? The missing perspective is from those previous
builders who stopped building - what happened such that they couldn't /
didn't complete their kit? I don't know what the number/percentage of
unfinished kits is, but I know that it is more than zero.
Certainly, some kits go unfinished because of the death of the
owner or the workshop burns down, but I have to believe that many kits
go unfinished because the newbie simply bites off more than he can chew.
As a 20-year Navy veteran, I continually witnessed every day as outside
agencies tried to shoehorn in one program after another into our
workdays - their justification was that there was always more slop time
left to accomplish the newly important program. But, I always asked the
question - if you want me to spend time on this new program, which old
program should I spend less time on?
Building an airplane undoubtedly takes time, and a prospective
builder needs to do a realistic check, comparing what he/she does with
his time now against what his/her schedule will look like while
building. In the abstract, it may sound easy to extract 5, 10 or 20
hours per week form one's current calendar (equating to 2 - 8 years to
build a 2000 hour aircraft) - but remember that those 5, 10 or 20 hours
must come from somewhere. It may be easy if you are merely giving up
watching TV or surfing the internet. Likewise, if you are retired or
have a nag of a spouse, you might relish the option of putting your time
towards a project. But, if you have a demanding job, a pending move, or
family commitments (and only you can define what your family commitments
are), then it will be more difficult to stay focused on a project.
After 7 years as a wanna-be, I have chosen to work towards
saving money for my project and make the plunge once I know that I can
make the required commitment to my project. This view may not reflect
on the members of this newsgroup (who are clearly a highly motivated and
capable group), nor may it reflect the exhortations of kit
manufacturers, but it does reflect the reality facing me. And, it has
kept me from becoming a statistic in the group of 'kit unfinished - no
current progress'. I'm not certain, but I think that once one enters
the statistic of 'kit unfinished - no current progress', it is very
difficult to get re-motivated to get back to 'kit unfinished - work in
progress'. (my apologies to those who have made this recovery)
Bill C.
Wanna-be builder
Navy vet, and now a Navy spouse
Naples IT
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it i
n error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any
other use of the email by you is prohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
Message 4
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| Subject: | Post Component Construction Priming |
It is also sold at Napa as 7220, made by a division of Sherwin Williams,
and often easier to get in rural areas, because the automotive paint
stores for them are difficult to find outside of big cities
Dan
N289DT (RV10E)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Post Component Construction Priming
Chris Stanley wrote:
>
> I am using a Sherwin Williams rattle can one step. I can't remember
> the numbers, but it's something like Primer no. 348. If you're really
> interested, I'll go back and get specifics for you.
>
Sherwin Williams 988:
<http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/products/show_product.cfm?product=756
5>
-Dj
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Kits/Family - A Review |
William Condon wrote:
> And, it has kept me from becoming a statistic in the group of 'kit
> unfinished - no current progress'. I'm not certain, but I think that
> once one enters the statistic of 'kit unfinished - no current
> progress', it is very difficult to get re-motivated to get back to
> 'kit unfinished - work in progress'. (my apologies to those who have
> made this recovery)
>
Hi William,
depending on your friends, I have one which already quit once, but I did
involve him on my final stages of finishing my aircraft and took him up
helping me on flighttesting. This motivated him, after 2 years not doing
anything, to go back and continue, now he is flying my plane from time
to time, to keep him motivated, next year he will finish!
Werner
do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Okay - Okay tell me I'm just sarcastic |
on the RV-12
John, for the purpose of expanded clarification, do you espouse that
those aircraft which have added additional fuel tanks have moved to the
dark side as well? The reason for asking is the additional weight on
the VAN designed spar (with extension) cannot perform to the same
standards in maneuvering speed turbulence as the prototype N410RV used
for kit certification.
That was the reason for the phrase I used last week "Design for
Aerobatic, Load to Utility and fly Standard Category... 3.8 G". I
perceive many builders have dismissed it our did not understand the
consequence. It was commonplace for the Lancair plastics to just up
their Gross Weight on paper for certification to cover the additional
mods without regard to the spar and the landing gear capability.
Kabang.
For those willing to move to the dark side, the process is as easy as
finding a DER (Designated Engineering Rep) willing to go with you and
then provide the plane for the same testing that the FAA required of
VAN. Remember to pack a current chute.
J Cox
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN STARN
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: RV10-List: Okay - Okay tell me I'm
just sarcastic on the RV-12
NOPE, I'm not, but my minor was in aeronautical engineering...BUT if I
were building a -10 and wanted to change something, anything I'd spend a
little bit and seek the advise of one. I'd do the same thing if I wanted
to go from light shingles to a heavy tile roof on my home. BUT there
seems to be a lot of -10 guys who are looking the same answer, sooo pool
your funds and buy the advise. Do Not Archive. KABONG BE HAPPY..
On the other hand maybe, just maybe, Van has considered all the other
ways but he also didn't want to be "dickin' with anything that may
affect the airworthiness of the plane" either.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Kits/Family - A Review |
I got a motorhome just in case, but the desire to build did not subside
with the purchase.
The answer to your question is YES. Spars can and should be checked
with both Eddy Current and Ultrasonic to find hidden flaws. How often?
Probably not in our aircraft's lifetime. If it was a Harmon Rocket,
probably but not necessarily I would do it. If I was doing a
pre-purchase for a client on a Beech T-6 or T-34 then the cost would be
clearly a prudent expenditure. If I was doing one on the Yaks and
Nanchang warbirds I work on, ABSOLUTELY. What has been learned or
Revisited is that metal indeed has memory. It is going to fail after it
has lived its life. Corrosion only speeds the reality of the memory.
Hence the value of corrosion protection. Hence the value of NDT - Non
Destructive Testing.
At work, if we even slip and induce a simple scratch in the skin of our
birds, then Eddy Current is called in after blending away the scratch to
confirm no crack was induced from the initial damage or from the heat of
sanding (that's hand sanding not mechanical). (Automatic $1,000 cost to
the company and a letter to Engineering to ask permission to remediate
and test). Ultra-sound is used to determine that the final thickness is
still within 0.003" of the original 0.060". If you took that anal
approach to 0.025" then we would all be in a world of hurt. Alclad is
only 5% of 0.025" per side. Ever looked at the skin after dragging
across the dimpler.
We have one gal at work that bought the $125,000 equipment just to
provide such tasks to the outside GA market. These hired guns get paid
doctors wages to find the cancer before the aircraft becomes a
statistic.
(This recital is a result of reading your Word attachment).
There is probably no finer 4 passenger kit available today than the
RV-10. Simply following of the instruction documents and a modicum of
budget excess to allow for improvement in avionics and you can exceed
Certificated Aircraft alternatives on a much more prudent budget.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
mgeans@provide.net
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 11:02 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Kits/Family - A Review
All,
For those that may be interested and some who may be
lurking, attached is some observations/converastions that
my wife and I had based on all of the replies we recieved
from the Kits and Family thread.
It is a bit long, ~3 pages in Word, but an interesting read
for those wanting to add thier 2 cents (we describe our
buidling status scenerio in more detail and invite
suggestions) and those considering building to have some
helpful insight.
On another note:
I fished for a reply with a one liner on the original post
with no specific replies and will try once more. It may
have gotten scanned over.
I have an opportunity to switch careers in which my
employer will be overseas. If anyone has any expirience or
knows someone who does, in such matters and what to be wary
of or be sure you include in your "package" as an employee
I would like to share more info about the scenerio for your
feedback. It is a life altering opportunity and I am
checking all sorts of leads where I could make myself
knowledgeable before my visit with them.
For those who are considering a build, or know of someone
who is, I will be downloading all the replies that we
recieved from this original post into a Word document to
consolidate all the advice for our and anyone's future use.
Contact me directly if you would be interested in getting
this document.
Thanks to all for your help.
Matt Geans
Builder Wanna-be
Message 8
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| Subject: | Kits/Family - A Review |
Tim, you had me at "I'm a sociable guy".
The too romantic part... I mean. Great post to the community.
John
Do not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Kits/Family - A Review
Matt, (and any other interested)
Ok, ya'll are gonna have to hold back from being too romantic
about this post....it was actually written by my wife in regards
to her thoughts about the Family experience of building an RV-10.
After reading it, I thought I better just make it a web page, because
it may be appreciated by other people down the road. Here's the
link to it:
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/why/wifesperspective.html
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Okay - Okay tell me I'm just sarcastic |
on the RV-12
John,
Color me confused. What kit certification? Is it not an amateur built
experimental aircraft? Is there some certification beyond DAR
acceptance of the completed aircraft? IIRC, Van's only FAA
certification is for the quick build complying with the 51% rule. Or
are you talking about the RV-12 and Light Sport certification? Has Van
provided a G number that the wing spar is good for, positive and
negative? Do we even know if that is the weak point, or perhaps the
tail, or the gear leg mounting points or who knows what the
recommended gross weight is based on? Certainly it can't be balked
landing climb rate. ;-)
On 11/16/06, John W. Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> wrote:
>
>
> John, for the purpose of expanded clarification, do you espouse that those
> aircraft which have added additional fuel tanks have moved to the dark side
> as well? The reason for asking is the additional weight on the VAN designed
> spar (with extension) cannot perform to the same standards in maneuvering
> speed turbulence as the prototype N410RV used for kit certification.
>
>
> That was the reason for the phrase I used last week "Design for Aerobatic,
> Load to Utility and fly Standard Category 3.8 G". I perceive many builders
> have dismissed it our did not understand the consequence. It was
> commonplace for the Lancair plastics to just up their Gross Weight on paper
> for certification to cover the additional mods without regard to the spar
> and the landing gear capability. Kabang.
>
>
> For those willing to move to the dark side, the process is as easy as
> finding a DER (Designated Engineering Rep) willing to go with you and then
> provide the plane for the same testing that the FAA required of VAN.
> Remember to pack a current chute.
>
>
> J Cox
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Some Observations after Two Years of Building |
Today marks the two year anniversary of the arrival of my tail kit
and it seems a good time to post some observations I've made over the
course of those 730 days:
I've put in 905 hours... an average of 1.74 per day, 5 days per
week. Not quite the 2 hours per day that I had planned. As others
have pointed out on this list from time to time, things happen over
during a project like this. Life changes, and if you're going to
finish, you will likely have to change your expectations from time to
time and keep forging ahead in any way you can. In my case, it was
severe Tennis Elbow in both arms (the result of a four hour riveting
session with my pneumatic squeezer) that cost me the better part of
three months of work and about $1,000 in physical therapy.
The DRDT-2 is a must, and with it you should dimple "missionary"
style. I spent a long time dragging skins over the male dimple
die... hunting around for the hole (all puns here are intended)...
before I realized how easy it was to dimple skins from the top down.
Time spent setting up is time saved working.
Measure three times. Cut once.
Find a comfortable position to stand in before pulling the trigger on
the rivet gun. That will save your skins as well as your back.
Some riveting simply can't be done alone
If you feel as if you are about to make a mistake, you're probably
right. Read the plans again... and again... and again... until what
you are doing becomes clear. And, remember, it's the left side
that's pictured in the plans.
If you're tired, don't work.
If it hurts, stop.
Vary your work. Don't just countersink for hours on end... or rivet
or deburr or even dimple. Repetitive tasks will take their toll over
time ( I have the elbows to prove it)
Finally, there are no "stupid" questions. None of us learn or
understand things in the same way and what might be obvious to one
person is anything but that to another. For me, it took an
embarrassing amount of time to really understand why we deburr. I
did it, dutifully, but it wasn't until I was well into the wing that
I got the mental picture of a sharp edged rib flange cutting into a
skin as the plane vibrated under power. I think we need to make a
better effort on this list to avoid jumping all over someone for
asking a question (even a priming question) just because the answer
is obvious to some of us. I have a sense that there are many
"lurkers" out there afraid to address the list for fear that they
will appear less smart or less sophisticated or just flat out
stupid. If we want a safe fleet of RV-10's flying in the future,
then we have to indulge even the most basic questions and we have to
remember that new people coming on to the list have to go through the
same discovery process as those who started it. Hats off to Tim
Olson for his contributions, but even more so for his tone. I think
it's an example we should all follow.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Elbow braces securely fastened
Riveting the right flap
Message 11
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| Subject: | Some Observations after Two Years of Building |
Excellent post Jeff. After 2.75 yrs and 2000 hrs of slow build, I can
endorse everything you have said. I too have suffered significant elbow
pain through repetetive tasks and posted to the list on this some time
ago. Got nil response, so I thought it was just me getting old and
soft. Just worked through it. I'm well into the finshing stages now,
and find that the old elbows are much healthier now the edge and hole
deburring (I think that's what caused me most strain) are finished.
Lurkers should be aware that building is an enormous challenge and great
fun - I would definitley do it all again in an instant and will likley
build another RV in the future. But there are some hazards. Crook
elbows, the odd hole bored into unsuspecting fingers (and knuckles),
pinching skin in the pneumatic squeezer, exposure to alodine, toluene,
isocyanates, epoxies, fiberglass dust, flying debris from grinding,
aluminium dust, sharp edges (esp firewall!!). . . all makes the build
process that much more exciting! I think it was Rick Sked who said to
call it quits for the night when you first draw blood :-D
As pilots, I am sure we are all very safety conscious, and take every
precaution during the build process. Unfortunately, s^&t happens, and
you can't plan for allergic reactions and debiltating conditions like
RSI.
Not intending to turn anyone off at all - but the last thing we need is
to lose our medicals because of building misphaps.
build safe, fly safe
Ron
187 finishing
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
Sent: Friday, 17 November 2006 8:52 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Some Observations after Two Years of Building
Today marks the two year anniversary of the arrival of my tail kit
and it seems a good time to post some observations I've made over the
course of those 730 days:
I've put in 905 hours... an average of 1.74 per day, 5 days per
week. Not quite the 2 hours per day that I had planned. As others
have pointed out on this list from time to time, things happen over
during a project like this. Life changes, and if you're going to
finish, you will likely have to change your expectations from time to
time and keep forging ahead in any way you can. In my case, it was
severe Tennis Elbow in both arms (the result of a four hour riveting
session with my pneumatic squeezer) that cost me the better part of
three months of work and about $1,000 in physical therapy.
The DRDT-2 is a must, and with it you should dimple "missionary"
style. I spent a long time dragging skins over the male dimple
die... hunting around for the hole (all puns here are intended)...
before I realized how easy it was to dimple skins from the top down.
Time spent setting up is time saved working.
Measure three times. Cut once.
Find a comfortable position to stand in before pulling the trigger on
the rivet gun. That will save your skins as well as your back.
Some riveting simply can't be done alone
If you feel as if you are about to make a mistake, you're probably
right. Read the plans again... and again... and again... until what
you are doing becomes clear. And, remember, it's the left side
that's pictured in the plans.
If you're tired, don't work.
If it hurts, stop.
Vary your work. Don't just countersink for hours on end... or rivet
or deburr or even dimple. Repetitive tasks will take their toll over
time ( I have the elbows to prove it)
Finally, there are no "stupid" questions. None of us learn or
understand things in the same way and what might be obvious to one
person is anything but that to another. For me, it took an
embarrassing amount of time to really understand why we deburr. I
did it, dutifully, but it wasn't until I was well into the wing that
I got the mental picture of a sharp edged rib flange cutting into a
skin as the plane vibrated under power. I think we need to make a
better effort on this list to avoid jumping all over someone for
asking a question (even a priming question) just because the answer
is obvious to some of us. I have a sense that there are many
"lurkers" out there afraid to address the list for fear that they
will appear less smart or less sophisticated or just flat out
stupid. If we want a safe fleet of RV-10's flying in the future,
then we have to indulge even the most basic questions and we have to
remember that new people coming on to the list have to go through the
same discovery process as those who started it. Hats off to Tim
Olson for his contributions, but even more so for his tone. I think
it's an example we should all follow.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Elbow braces securely fastened
Riveting the right flap
Message 12
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|
Does any one have an up date on the progress of the Honda - Continental
joint study on aircraft engines, i think the joint venture was announced
back in 2002.
P.D.W
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil door latch
> <billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Chris, I have been looking for the round hole latch (Hartwell equivalent
> function) variety for some time with no luck. They are available as I
> just
> saw one on a new Micco (Meyers 145 maybe) that flew in for an airshow. It
> was like the round cover Access used on wheel pants (link below) except
> that
> as you pushed it in, it released a latching mechanism. Very clean!
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/accessdoors.php
>
> Maybe someone else can help? Last resort would be to call the folks at
> Tecnam (Micco Aircraft Company) and ask them where they got them?
>
> Thanks Bill S
> 7a
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 7:25 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil door latch
>
> --> <CJohnston@popsound.com>
>
> Yea, but I was thinking about the round hole versions that you see on some
> aircraft.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv10builder
> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 4:49 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: oil door latch
>
>
> Like this?
>
> http://www.justrvparts.com/Oil%20Door%20Hidden%20Hinge.htm
>
> Chris Johnston wrote:
> <CJohnston@popsound.com>
>>
>> Sorry - forgot to change the subject.
>>
>> Hey all -
>>
>> Here's a silly question that I've been wondering - why doesn't anyone
>> use a flush latch on the oil door like on a Cessna? also, anyone know
>> where you can pick one up? I was just looking at the baggage door
>> latch, then started thinking about the Cessna version, which got me
>> thinking about the oil door... of course, i'm supposed to be
> working...
>>
>>
>> cj
>> #40410
>> fuse
>> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Some Observations after Two Years of Building |
I'm beginning to think we need a support group for Riveting Elbow! I
too suffered this affliction but I'm too stubborn (or is that stupid) to
stop working. I originally got it 15 years ago from playing Racquetball
anyway. Oh well. My little 6 month break due to my move is letting it
heal up finally. I guess some good advice out of this is to wear a
tennis elbow brace right from the beginning.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Fuselage
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:07 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Some Observations after Two Years of Building
Excellent post Jeff. After 2.75 yrs and 2000 hrs of slow build, I can
endorse everything you have said. I too have suffered significant elbow
pain through repetetive tasks and posted to the list on this some time
ago. Got nil response, so I thought it was just me getting old and
soft. Just worked through it. I'm well into the finshing stages now,
and find that the old elbows are much healthier now the edge and hole
deburring (I think that's what caused me most strain) are finished.
Lurkers should be aware that building is an enormous challenge and great
fun - I would definitley do it all again in an instant and will likley
build another RV in the future. But there are some hazards. Crook
elbows, the odd hole bored into unsuspecting fingers (and knuckles),
pinching skin in the pneumatic squeezer, exposure to alodine, toluene,
isocyanates, epoxies, fiberglass dust, flying debris from grinding,
aluminium dust, sharp edges (esp firewall!!). . . all makes the build
process that much more exciting! I think it was Rick Sked who said to
call it quits for the night when you first draw blood :-D
As pilots, I am sure we are all very safety conscious, and take every
precaution during the build process. Unfortunately, s^&t happens, and
you can't plan for allergic reactions and debiltating conditions like
RSI.
Not intending to turn anyone off at all - but the last thing we need is
to lose our medicals because of building misphaps.
build safe, fly safe
Ron
187 finishing
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
Sent: Friday, 17 November 2006 8:52 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Some Observations after Two Years of Building
Today marks the two year anniversary of the arrival of my tail kit
and it seems a good time to post some observations I've made over the
course of those 730 days:
I've put in 905 hours... an average of 1.74 per day, 5 days per
week. Not quite the 2 hours per day that I had planned. As others
have pointed out on this list from time to time, things happen over
during a project like this. Life changes, and if you're going to
finish, you will likely have to change your expectations from time to
time and keep forging ahead in any way you can. In my case, it was
severe Tennis Elbow in both arms (the result of a four hour riveting
session with my pneumatic squeezer) that cost me the better part of
three months of work and about $1,000 in physical therapy.
The DRDT-2 is a must, and with it you should dimple "missionary"
style. I spent a long time dragging skins over the male dimple
die... hunting around for the hole (all puns here are intended)...
before I realized how easy it was to dimple skins from the top down.
Time spent setting up is time saved working.
Measure three times. Cut once.
Find a comfortable position to stand in before pulling the trigger on
the rivet gun. That will save your skins as well as your back.
Some riveting simply can't be done alone
If you feel as if you are about to make a mistake, you're probably
right. Read the plans again... and again... and again... until what
you are doing becomes clear. And, remember, it's the left side
that's pictured in the plans.
If you're tired, don't work.
If it hurts, stop.
Vary your work. Don't just countersink for hours on end... or rivet
or deburr or even dimple. Repetitive tasks will take their toll over
time ( I have the elbows to prove it)
Finally, there are no "stupid" questions. None of us learn or
understand things in the same way and what might be obvious to one
person is anything but that to another. For me, it took an
embarrassing amount of time to really understand why we deburr. I
did it, dutifully, but it wasn't until I was well into the wing that
I got the mental picture of a sharp edged rib flange cutting into a
skin as the plane vibrated under power. I think we need to make a
better effort on this list to avoid jumping all over someone for
asking a question (even a priming question) just because the answer
is obvious to some of us. I have a sense that there are many
"lurkers" out there afraid to address the list for fear that they
will appear less smart or less sophisticated or just flat out
stupid. If we want a safe fleet of RV-10's flying in the future,
then we have to indulge even the most basic questions and we have to
remember that new people coming on to the list have to go through the
same discovery process as those who started it. Hats off to Tim
Olson for his contributions, but even more so for his tone. I think
it's an example we should all follow.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Elbow braces securely fastened
Riveting the right flap
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Re: Some Observations after Two Years of Building |
What a bunch of whiners!!!!! :-* I Had wrist / Carpel tunnel
surgery and had my forearm in a cast for 10 weeks, The Doc said "don't
lift anything more than 5 lbs for 3 months" I was riveting with the
cast on 1 week after surgery, probably not too smart, but I told you all
I am compulsive!!!!! :-!
Do Not archive
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
>*
>*
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | glassing rivets into glass |
Hey all -
I kind of expected there to be more discussion about this... John -
what is the meaning of "David's findings after Cooperstate" ? what are
his modifications to the shoulder mount harness, and why are they
good/bad? I can't really tell from your post if you think it's bad,
good, or what the heck it all means. Are you poo-pooing or applauding?
I'm considering using hard points in the cabin top for the rear seats
seatbelts along with the stock front seat hard point locations. Is this
a bad idea? I'm very much out of my element when it comes to
composites, and it all seems very fragile to me, but whatever. Smarter
people than me came up with this composite stuff. I'm just trying to
catch up :-)
What say you all?
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:54 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Just wondering what the "more revealing" findings were about the
shoulder harness mods and thus the post crash survivability.
John J
do not archive
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:10 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Composites, even VANs RV-10 canopies do not set until the matrix
reaches final threshold temperature (Well above 175 degrees). Carbon
fiber is usually cured in an oven under vacuum which aids the matrix to
reach target and the resin to reach SET. Those aircraft which use
dissimilar materials won't see the shrink for one to three annual heat
soak cycles. A have scores of pictures of $25K + Lancair paint jobs
which enter the area just after the builder gets through recovering from
their investment. It sneaks up and bites the big one.
No RV builder is going to see this phenomena for some time,
unless their aircraft is left in the sun of FL, TX or AZ and out in the
elements for an extended period. This is one of the unfortunate truisms
of composite matrix. David's findings were most interesting to view
after Copperstate. His modifications to the shoulder harness mount are
even more revealing when you address the subject of Safety and post
crash survivability. Oh yeh, I forgot, statistically no RV-10s have
crashed yet. Only one had an unfortunate landing in CA.
John C
#600
Do not Archive
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 3:16 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Two pictures of my Glastar ; One had the rivets in the cowl
seamed over with a single layer (1") of E glass. The rivets holding the
oil access door did not have a layer of glass. The rivet heads appeared
between 100-200 TT.
The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link
attachments:
IMG_0020
IMG_0021
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href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Some Observations after Two Years of Building |
That's nothin....
I had back surgery and 2 weeks later had my wife sling me over the fuse in
my old hang gliding harness so I could keep on going .....whinge whinge..
:-D
John 40315 (halfway..because I still don't have the windshield in)
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deems Davis" <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Some Observations after Two Years of Building
>
> What a bunch of whiners!!!!! :-* I Had wrist / Carpel tunnel
> surgery and had my forearm in a cast for 10 weeks, The Doc said "don't
> lift anything more than 5 lbs for 3 months" I was riveting with the cast
> on 1 week after surgery, probably not too smart, but I told you all I am
> compulsive!!!!! :-!
>
> Do Not archive
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
> http://deemsrv10.com/
>
>>*
>>*
>>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | glassing rivets into glass |
Chris -
David can best post in the first person. I think Safety improvements
are a For Sure thing to do. Halon Fire Suppression, Shoulder harness
airbags , Pitot/Static test port at the panel, but the real deal winner
was the improvement on the four passenger shoulder mounts into the
composite substrate. His battery retention bracket was pretty cool too.
Glassing over rivets was more Aesthetic than Safety
I always apply S.A.F.E to all of VAN's final product. Can it be made
(S)afer; more (A)esthetically pleasing; can the (F)unctionality be
enhanced; and finally can things be finished more (E)rgonomically. I
would like to think the RV-10 could be brought into the 21st century
like the RV-12 which is by design VFR Day Only. I do love steam gages in
WWII aircraft though. I am no fan of trying to stop a 200+ pound
passenger being held down by a single point fastener than thinking a wet
cardboard box can hold rocks. I am all for Glass EFIS and ergonomically
canted panels and prudently placed controls. I still miss John Denver
and Yes, my eight track is broken.
How about Emmett Smith and those Cowboys?
John
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Hey all -
I kind of expected there to be more discussion about this... John -
what is the meaning of "David's findings after Cooperstate" ? what are
his modifications to the shoulder mount harness, and why are they
good/bad? I can't really tell from your post if you think it's bad,
good, or what the heck it all means. Are you poo-pooing or applauding?
I'm considering using hard points in the cabin top for the rear seats
seatbelts along with the stock front seat hard point locations. Is this
a bad idea? I'm very much out of my element when it comes to
composites, and it all seems very fragile to me, but whatever. Smarter
people than me came up with this composite stuff. I'm just trying to
catch up :-)
What say you all?
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:54 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Just wondering what the "more revealing" findings were about the
shoulder harness mods and thus the post crash survivability.
John J
do not archive
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:10 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Composites, even VANs RV-10 canopies do not set until the matrix
reaches final threshold temperature (Well above 175 degrees). Carbon
fiber is usually cured in an oven under vacuum which aids the matrix to
reach target and the resin to reach SET. Those aircraft which use
dissimilar materials won't see the shrink for one to three annual heat
soak cycles. A have scores of pictures of $25K + Lancair paint jobs
which enter the area just after the builder gets through recovering from
their investment. It sneaks up and bites the big one.
No RV builder is going to see this phenomena for some time,
unless their aircraft is left in the sun of FL, TX or AZ and out in the
elements for an extended period. This is one of the unfortunate truisms
of composite matrix. David's findings were most interesting to view
after Copperstate. His modifications to the shoulder harness mount are
even more revealing when you address the subject of Safety and post
crash survivability. Oh yeh, I forgot, statistically no RV-10s have
crashed yet. Only one had an unfortunate landing in CA.
John C
#600
Do not Archive
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 3:16 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Two pictures of my Glastar ; One had the rivets in the cowl
seamed over with a single layer (1") of E glass. The rivets holding the
oil access door did not have a layer of glass. The rivet heads appeared
between 100-200 TT.
The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link
attachments:
IMG_0020
IMG_0021
e-mail security
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Some Observations after Two Years of Building |
Not to down play all the name calling He-men out there but I had 6 surgeries on
my right hand since May of 2003, the last in October 2005 as a result of a crushed
finger that ultimately was replaced by a nifty carbon fiber and titanium
bone replacement unit (#2 to get one in the country) that will never really
replace the original but beats the heck out of amputation or fusion.
So nanner nanner Deems, and your Wussy comment ;)
Getting back to the building process was a major motivator and in between some
350 odd physical therapy appointments and work I managed to get to the point Deems
is at minus a few months....
Never give in, never surrender...
Rick S.
40185
FWIW, I think Anh went through a bunch more with the torn achillies tendon...
do not archive
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: glassing rivets into glass |
Basically I will relate the history of our restraint installation.
Although retired since 1995, I still have two rugrats 7 and 10. They
want to move around a lot when we travel, so I began to look for a way
to install inertial belts. I happened to see an inertial system in a
super cub and upon examination found an AMSAFE part number. I contacted
them since they are a local company in PHX. After meeting one of their
technical managers, he was reluctant to design anything around the Van's
hardpoint. Fortunately I have access to a couple of neighbors who have
ridden about in my C177RG. They happen to have 3 PhDs between them from
Caltech. They too were concerned about the single #5 countersunk screw
holding the shoulder harness. They believe that the constant pull on the
harness would cause "working" of the screw in the hardpoint and that in
a crash the screw would easily pull through. You can see our alternative
at www.inertialbelts.com. I would recommend strengthening the hardpoints
even if you do not go with inertial belts. A simple improvement would be
a large CS Stainless steel washer , a standard procedure in composite to
spread the load.
----- Original Message -----
From: John W. Cox
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 8:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Chris -
David can best post in the first person. I think Safety improvements
are a For Sure thing to do. Halon Fire Suppression, Shoulder harness
airbags , Pitot/Static test port at the panel, but the real deal winner
was the improvement on the four passenger shoulder mounts into the
composite substrate. His battery retention bracket was pretty cool too.
Glassing over rivets was more Aesthetic than Safety
I always apply S.A.F.E to all of VAN's final product. Can it be made
(S)afer; more (A)esthetically pleasing; can the (F)unctionality be
enhanced; and finally can things be finished more (E)rgonomically. I
would like to think the RV-10 could be brought into the 21st century
like the RV-12 which is by design VFR Day Only. I do love steam gages in
WWII aircraft though. I am no fan of trying to stop a 200+ pound
passenger being held down by a single point fastener than thinking a wet
cardboard box can hold rocks. I am all for Glass EFIS and ergonomically
canted panels and prudently placed controls. I still miss John Denver
and Yes, my eight track is broken.
How about Emmett Smith and those Cowboys?
John
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:57 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Hey all -
I kind of expected there to be more discussion about this. John -
what is the meaning of "David's findings after Cooperstate" ? what are
his modifications to the shoulder mount harness, and why are they
good/bad? I can't really tell from your post if you think it's bad,
good, or what the heck it all means. Are you poo-pooing or applauding?
I'm considering using hard points in the cabin top for the rear seats
seatbelts along with the stock front seat hard point locations. Is this
a bad idea? I'm very much out of my element when it comes to
composites, and it all seems very fragile to me, but whatever. Smarter
people than me came up with this composite stuff. I'm just trying to
catch up J
What say you all?
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:54 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Just wondering what the "more revealing" findings were about the
shoulder harness mods and thus the post crash survivability.
John J
do not archive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:10 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Composites, even VANs RV-10 canopies do not set until the matrix
reaches final threshold temperature (Well above 175 degrees). Carbon
fiber is usually cured in an oven under vacuum which aids the matrix to
reach target and the resin to reach SET. Those aircraft which use
dissimilar materials won't see the shrink for one to three annual heat
soak cycles. A have scores of pictures of $25K + Lancair paint jobs
which enter the area just after the builder gets through recovering from
their investment. It sneaks up and bites the big one.
No RV builder is going to see this phenomena for some time, unless
their aircraft is left in the sun of FL, TX or AZ and out in the
elements for an extended period. This is one of the unfortunate truisms
of composite matrix. David's findings were most interesting to view
after Copperstate. His modifications to the shoulder harness mount are
even more revealing when you address the subject of Safety and post
crash survivability. Oh yeh, I forgot, statistically no RV-10s have
crashed yet. Only one had an unfortunate landing in CA.
John C
#600
Do not Archive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 3:16 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Two pictures of my Glastar ; One had the rivets in the cowl seamed
over with a single layer (1") of E glass. The rivets holding the oil
access door did not have a layer of glass. The rivet heads appeared
between 100-200 TT.
The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link
attachments:
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Message 20
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| Subject: | glassing rivets into glass |
Okay, let's go through the add on stuff. I'm up to the following:
Camera in the VS
VS intake for overhead mounted air vents (ala Ed's)
Space saved for air conditioning
LED position lights all around
HID in both wings
Wig wag in wing tips
Pitot/static test port at the panel
Alternate static?
New seat belt attach points?
Return line for tanks?
Halon system
Firewall material?
Holly Cowl
Barrette engine
exhaust?
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 10:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Chris -
David can best post in the first person. I think Safety improvements are a
For Sure thing to do. Halon Fire Suppression, Shoulder harness airbags ,
Pitot/Static test port at the panel, but the real deal winner was the
improvement on the four passenger shoulder mounts into the composite
substrate. His battery retention bracket was pretty cool too. Glassing over
rivets was more Aesthetic than Safety
I always apply S.A.F.E to all of VAN's final product. Can it be made
(S)afer; more (A)esthetically pleasing; can the (F)unctionality be enhanced;
and finally can things be finished more (E)rgonomically. I would like to
think the RV-10 could be brought into the 21st century like the RV-12 which
is by design VFR Day Only. I do love steam gages in WWII aircraft though. I
am no fan of trying to stop a 200+ pound passenger being held down by a
single point fastener than thinking a wet cardboard box can hold rocks. I
am all for Glass EFIS and ergonomically canted panels and prudently placed
controls. I still miss John Denver and Yes, my eight track is broken.
How about Emmett Smith and those Cowboys?
John
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Hey all -
I kind of expected there to be more discussion about this. John - what is
the meaning of "David's findings after Cooperstate" ? what are his
modifications to the shoulder mount harness, and why are they good/bad? I
can't really tell from your post if you think it's bad, good, or what the
heck it all means. Are you poo-pooing or applauding? I'm considering
using hard points in the cabin top for the rear seats seatbelts along with
the stock front seat hard point locations. Is this a bad idea? I'm very
much out of my element when it comes to composites, and it all seems very
fragile to me, but whatever. Smarter people than me came up with this
composite stuff. I'm just trying to catch up :-)
What say you all?
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:54 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Just wondering what the "more revealing" findings were about the shoulder
harness mods and thus the post crash survivability.
John J
do not archive
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Composites, even VANs RV-10 canopies do not set until the matrix reaches
final threshold temperature (Well above 175 degrees). Carbon fiber is
usually cured in an oven under vacuum which aids the matrix to reach target
and the resin to reach SET. Those aircraft which use dissimilar materials
won't see the shrink for one to three annual heat soak cycles. A have
scores of pictures of $25K + Lancair paint jobs which enter the area just
after the builder gets through recovering from their investment. It sneaks
up and bites the big one.
No RV builder is going to see this phenomena for some time, unless their
aircraft is left in the sun of FL, TX or AZ and out in the elements for an
extended period. This is one of the unfortunate truisms of composite
matrix. David's findings were most interesting to view after Copperstate.
His modifications to the shoulder harness mount are even more revealing when
you address the subject of Safety and post crash survivability. Oh yeh, I
forgot, statistically no RV-10s have crashed yet. Only one had an
unfortunate landing in CA.
John C
#600
Do not Archive
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 3:16 PM
Subject: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Two pictures of my Glastar ; One had the rivets in the cowl seamed over with
a single layer (1") of E glass. The rivets holding the oil access door did
not have a layer of glass. The rivet heads appeared between 100-200 TT.
IMG_0020
IMG_0021
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
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-- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
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this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided
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--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you for your generous support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
- The RV10-List Email Forum -
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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www.buildersbooks.com
www.kitlog.com
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Some Observations after Two Years of Building |
Sounds like a session of I've got one better than you. Well golly, I got a
bunch of work to go do in my garage. LOL.
Bob K
90/90
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 7:46 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Some Observations after Two Years of Building
Not to down play all the name calling He-men out there but I had 6
surgeries on my right hand since May of 2003, the last in October 2005 as a
result of a crushed finger that ultimately was replaced by a nifty carbon
fiber and titanium bone replacement unit (#2 to get one in the country)
that will never really replace the original but beats the heck out of
amputation or fusion.
So nanner nanner Deems, and your Wussy comment ;)
Getting back to the building process was a major motivator and in between
some 350 odd physical therapy appointments and work I managed to get to the
point Deems is at minus a few months....
Never give in, never surrender...
Rick S.
40185
FWIW, I think Anh went through a bunch more with the torn achillies
tendon...
do not archive
Message 22
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| Subject: | glassing rivets into glass |
Whoops! sorry folks. Starting to make a holiday list and hit the send
button by accident.
do not archive
_____
From: John Jessen [mailto:jjessen@rcn.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:16 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Okay, let's go through the add on stuff. I'm up to the following:
Camera in the VS
VS intake for overhead mounted air vents (ala Ed's)
Space saved for air conditioning
LED position lights all around
HID in both wings
Wig wag in wing tips
Pitot/static test port at the panel
Alternate static?
New seat belt attach points?
Return line for tanks?
Halon system
Firewall material?
Holly Cowl
Barrette engine
exhaust?
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 10:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Chris -
David can best post in the first person. I think Safety improvements are a
For Sure thing to do. Halon Fire Suppression, Shoulder harness airbags ,
Pitot/Static test port at the panel, but the real deal winner was the
improvement on the four passenger shoulder mounts into the composite
substrate. His battery retention bracket was pretty cool too. Glassing over
rivets was more Aesthetic than Safety
I always apply S.A.F.E to all of VAN's final product. Can it be made
(S)afer; more (A)esthetically pleasing; can the (F)unctionality be enhanced;
and finally can things be finished more (E)rgonomically. I would like to
think the RV-10 could be brought into the 21st century like the RV-12 which
is by design VFR Day Only. I do love steam gages in WWII aircraft though. I
am no fan of trying to stop a 200+ pound passenger being held down by a
single point fastener than thinking a wet cardboard box can hold rocks. I
am all for Glass EFIS and ergonomically canted panels and prudently placed
controls. I still miss John Denver and Yes, my eight track is broken.
How about Emmett Smith and those Cowboys?
John
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Hey all -
I kind of expected there to be more discussion about this. John - what is
the meaning of "David's findings after Cooperstate" ? what are his
modifications to the shoulder mount harness, and why are they good/bad? I
can't really tell from your post if you think it's bad, good, or what the
heck it all means. Are you poo-pooing or applauding? I'm considering
using hard points in the cabin top for the rear seats seatbelts along with
the stock front seat hard point locations. Is this a bad idea? I'm very
much out of my element when it comes to composites, and it all seems very
fragile to me, but whatever. Smarter people than me came up with this
composite stuff. I'm just trying to catch up :-)
What say you all?
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:54 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Just wondering what the "more revealing" findings were about the shoulder
harness mods and thus the post crash survivability.
John J
do not archive
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Composites, even VANs RV-10 canopies do not set until the matrix reaches
final threshold temperature (Well above 175 degrees). Carbon fiber is
usually cured in an oven under vacuum which aids the matrix to reach target
and the resin to reach SET. Those aircraft which use dissimilar materials
won't see the shrink for one to three annual heat soak cycles. A have
scores of pictures of $25K + Lancair paint jobs which enter the area just
after the builder gets through recovering from their investment. It sneaks
up and bites the big one.
No RV builder is going to see this phenomena for some time, unless their
aircraft is left in the sun of FL, TX or AZ and out in the elements for an
extended period. This is one of the unfortunate truisms of composite
matrix. David's findings were most interesting to view after Copperstate.
His modifications to the shoulder harness mount are even more revealing when
you address the subject of Safety and post crash survivability. Oh yeh, I
forgot, statistically no RV-10s have crashed yet. Only one had an
unfortunate landing in CA.
John C
#600
Do not Archive
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 3:16 PM
Subject: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
Two pictures of my Glastar ; One had the rivets in the cowl seamed over with
a single layer (1") of E glass. The rivets holding the oil access door did
not have a layer of glass. The rivet heads appeared between 100-200 TT.
IMG_0020
IMG_0021
e-mail security
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?RV10-List
-- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
the Contribution link below to find out more about
this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided
by:
* AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com
* The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com
* Aeroware Enterprises www.kitlog.com
* HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com
List Contribution Web Site
--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you for your generous support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
- The RV10-List Email Forum -
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.kitlog.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Some Observations after Two Years of Building |
I'm humbled................. (I Think ;-) )
Deems
Rick wrote:
>
>Not to down play all the name calling He-men out there but I had 6 surgeries
on my right hand since May of 2003, the last in October 2005 as a result of a
crushed finger that ultimately was replaced by a nifty carbon fiber and titanium
bone replacement unit (#2 to get one in the country) that will never really
replace the original but beats the heck out of amputation or fusion.
>
>So nanner nanner Deems, and your Wussy comment ;)
>
>Getting back to the building process was a major motivator and in between some
350 odd physical therapy appointments and work I managed to get to the point
Deems is at minus a few months....
>
>Never give in, never surrender...
>
>Rick S.
>40185
>
>FWIW, I think Anh went through a bunch more with the torn achillies tendon...
>
>do not archive
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Some Observations after Two Years of Building |
Jeff Carpenter wrote:
"I have a sense that there are many "lurkers" out there
afraid to address the list for fear that they will appear
less smart or less sophisticated or just flat out stupid."
Well.....Not this one!!! Type! - Type! - Type! - Lurk! -
Lurk! - Lurk! Hey! Look! I have no empenage in my garage!
I have no money in the bank yet! I have time to Type!
Type! Type! :-P "They're comeing to take me away! HOO HOO
:-O HA HA :-) They're taking me away to the RV farm!!!"
(the preceeding message was intended for notions of humor
and silliness and in no way should be mistaken as sarcasim.
Mr. Carpenter's well written piece on correct ergonomic
control of one's extremities should serve us all a good
notion to utilize good planning during our build and use
correct working heights for one's personal altitude that
one climbs and maintains throughout each day. It would
also be good to add the common sense of using our PPE
(personal protective equipment) when in our shop. No
elbows were harmed in the makeing of this e-mail.)
John,
Thank you for your update on your 2 year progress. It is a
good milestone to be able to look at your progress. Its
more than I can say for my progress. Let those who have
not be happy for those who do! Congradulations John!
Matt Geans,
Builder Wanna-be
On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:21:50 -0800
Jeff Carpenter <jeff@westcottpress.com> wrote:
> <jeff@westcottpress.com>
>
> Today marks the two year anniversary of the arrival of my
> tail kit and it seems a good time to post some
> observations I've made over the course of those 730
> days:
>
> I've put in 905 hours... an average of 1.74 per day, 5
> days per week. Not quite the 2 hours per day that I had
> planned. As others have pointed out on this list from
> time to time, things happen over during a project like
> this. Life changes, and if you're going to finish, you
> will likely have to change your expectations from time to
> time and keep forging ahead in any way you can. In my
> case, it was severe Tennis Elbow in both arms (the
> result of a four hour riveting session with my pneumatic
> squeezer) that cost me the better part of three months
> of work and about $1,000 in physical therapy.
>
> The DRDT-2 is a must, and with it you should dimple
> "missionary" style. I spent a long time dragging skins
> over the male dimple die... hunting around for the hole
> (all puns here are intended)... before I realized how
> easy it was to dimple skins from the top down.
>
> Time spent setting up is time saved working.
>
> Measure three times. Cut once.
>
> Find a comfortable position to stand in before pulling
> the trigger on the rivet gun. That will save your skins
> as well as your back.
>
> Some riveting simply can't be done alone
>
> If you feel as if you are about to make a mistake, you're
> probably right. Read the plans again... and again...
> and again... until what you are doing becomes clear.
> And, remember, it's the left side that's pictured in
> the plans.
>
> If you're tired, don't work.
>
> If it hurts, stop.
>
> Vary your work. Don't just countersink for hours on
> end... or rivet or deburr or even dimple. Repetitive
> tasks will take their toll over time ( I have the elbows
> to prove it)
>
> Finally, there are no "stupid" questions. None of us
> learn or understand things in the same way and what
> might be obvious to one person is anything but that to
> another. For me, it took an embarrassing amount of time
> to really understand why we deburr. I did it,
> dutifully, but it wasn't until I was well into the wing
> that I got the mental picture of a sharp edged rib
> flange cutting into a skin as the plane vibrated under
> power. I think we need to make a better effort on this
> list to avoid jumping all over someone for asking a
> question (even a priming question) just because the
> answer is obvious to some of us. I have a sense that
> there are many "lurkers" out there afraid to address the
> list for fear that they will appear less smart or less
> sophisticated or just flat out stupid. If we want a
> safe fleet of RV-10's flying in the future, then we have
> to indulge even the most basic questions and we have to
> remember that new people coming on to the list have to
> go through the same discovery process as those who
> started it. Hats off to Tim Olson for his
> contributions, but even more so for his tone. I think
> it's an example we should all follow.
>
> Jeff Carpenter
> 40304
> Elbow braces securely fastened
> Riveting the right flap
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Admin.
>
> page,
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | glassing rivets into glass |
>From one John to another and another John to the rest of the list. You my
fine feathered friend speak in a dialect of riddles. Quite certain you know
what you say, but for other, they may not be as near to your brain and
therefore our synapses may not be capable of picking up those strong,
electro-chemical impulses which you yourself respond to.
Perhaps a brief stint into the world of politics is in your future whether
you are aware of it or not. Sooner or later however, they will pin you down
and make you confess to your deepest beliefs and behaviors. Inhaled or not
or made up big stories. Although life is a circle you will not find many
who will see the end as the beginning and the beginning as the end.
Attempting to be more clear I am, but only my opinion it is.
A well laid up composite is much stronger than these sardine cans. Hate that
tin canning!
The harness for the rear seats is in my opinion in the correct position
being that it is in the truest opposite direction as the body will be going
in a crash, 180 degrees. But if you must change things, you would either
need to through bolt to a plate on the other side of the lid, because I
would not want to laminate in a hard point into the fiberglass/core
sandwich. Although that core is flimsy by itself, sandwiched with glass,
you can stand on it. Don't interrupt it. Unless you want to laminate a big
block of hardwood on top of the structure(ceiling) and glass the hell out of
it. That will look like sh....t! The hard points that the fabricators made
were laid up into the structure.
Also consider my email a few days ago about the impression of the main fuse
and the tail cone joining point. When that tail cone separates, all one has
to do is remember to hold onto the rear seat shoulder harness and you have
an ejection seat. You will be flying a canard at that point.
Of course I am sure most of you have not considered a backpack parachute.
Then again, there is no guarantee that one will be able to get out of the
aircraft, but one thing is for certain, I would rather have a fighting
chance then to helplessly wait as the ground rises up to meet me. It could
be several minutes of thinking that you made the wrong choice.
Being a sailplane guy, I fly with a parachute all the time. I need to
purchase only two more.
Last August a corporate jet slammed into a glider near Minden, Nv.
Fortunately all involved survived. But the glider pilot bailed out after
his last few feet of wing got permanently imbedded in the Hawker's nose.
Three summers ago a MD80 nearly took me out at 15K while I thermalled. My
transponder was squawking 1200 in mode C.
This is why I am concerned about all these fancy glass panels, very sexy
indeed and we all know what happens when many of us guys pass one of these
while driving a car. The neck is on that spring swivel, but for some reason,
many of us gentlemen have springs that don't recoil very fast. I guess I
am starting to not be real clear either. What say you, Lynn.
Seriously, here is a great set of composite videos to look for and they are
quite enjoyable too.
Look for Mike Arnold's AR-5 tapes. It is a series and you can get the ones
that most interest you.
The AR-5 is a foam core fiberglass single seat airplane he made flying with
65Hp rotax that went over 200mph in level flight. Now, that's what I'm
talking about. Cleaner ship, less Hp, less fuel. Plastic is really cool once
you learn about them.
John, in case you can't tell, I always like what you say and the way you say
it.
JOhn G. Writing, not building. No more progress then where I was yesterday.
>From: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
>Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:20:12 -0800
>
>Chris -
>
>David can best post in the first person. I think Safety improvements
>are a For Sure thing to do. Halon Fire Suppression, Shoulder harness
>airbags , Pitot/Static test port at the panel, but the real deal winner
>was the improvement on the four passenger shoulder mounts into the
>composite substrate. His battery retention bracket was pretty cool too.
>Glassing over rivets was more Aesthetic than Safety
>
>
>I always apply S.A.F.E to all of VAN's final product. Can it be made
>(S)afer; more (A)esthetically pleasing; can the (F)unctionality be
>enhanced; and finally can things be finished more (E)rgonomically. I
>would like to think the RV-10 could be brought into the 21st century
>like the RV-12 which is by design VFR Day Only. I do love steam gages in
>WWII aircraft though. I am no fan of trying to stop a 200+ pound
>passenger being held down by a single point fastener than thinking a wet
>cardboard box can hold rocks. I am all for Glass EFIS and ergonomically
>canted panels and prudently placed controls. I still miss John Denver
>and Yes, my eight track is broken.
>
>
>How about Emmett Smith and those Cowboys?
>
>
>John
>
>
>________________________________
>
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
>Johnston
>Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:57 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
>
>
>Hey all -
>
>
>I kind of expected there to be more discussion about this... John -
>what is the meaning of "David's findings after Cooperstate" ? what are
>his modifications to the shoulder mount harness, and why are they
>good/bad? I can't really tell from your post if you think it's bad,
>good, or what the heck it all means. Are you poo-pooing or applauding?
>I'm considering using hard points in the cabin top for the rear seats
>seatbelts along with the stock front seat hard point locations. Is this
>a bad idea? I'm very much out of my element when it comes to
>composites, and it all seems very fragile to me, but whatever. Smarter
>people than me came up with this composite stuff. I'm just trying to
>catch up :-)
>
>
>What say you all?
>
>
>cj
>
>#40410
>
>fuse
>
>www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
>Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:54 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
>
>
>Just wondering what the "more revealing" findings were about the
>shoulder harness mods and thus the post crash survivability.
>
>
>John J
>
>
>do not archive
>
>
>________________________________
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:10 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
>
> Composites, even VANs RV-10 canopies do not set until the matrix
>reaches final threshold temperature (Well above 175 degrees). Carbon
>fiber is usually cured in an oven under vacuum which aids the matrix to
>reach target and the resin to reach SET. Those aircraft which use
>dissimilar materials won't see the shrink for one to three annual heat
>soak cycles. A have scores of pictures of $25K + Lancair paint jobs
>which enter the area just after the builder gets through recovering from
>their investment. It sneaks up and bites the big one.
>
>
> No RV builder is going to see this phenomena for some time,
>unless their aircraft is left in the sun of FL, TX or AZ and out in the
>elements for an extended period. This is one of the unfortunate truisms
>of composite matrix. David's findings were most interesting to view
>after Copperstate. His modifications to the shoulder harness mount are
>even more revealing when you address the subject of Safety and post
>crash survivability. Oh yeh, I forgot, statistically no RV-10s have
>crashed yet. Only one had an unfortunate landing in CA.
>
>
> John C
>
> #600
>
>
> Do not Archive
>
>
>________________________________
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 3:16 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
>
>
> Two pictures of my Glastar ; One had the rivets in the cowl
>seamed over with a single layer (1") of E glass. The rivets holding the
>oil access door did not have a layer of glass. The rivet heads appeared
>between 100-200 TT.
>
> The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link
>attachments:
> IMG_0020
> IMG_0021
>
> e-mail security
>
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics
>.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
>
> -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
> (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
> the Contribution link below to find out more about
> this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided
> by:
> * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com
> * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com
> * Aeroware Enterprises www.kitlog.com
> * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com
> List Contribution Web Site
> --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> Thank you for your generous support!
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> - The RV10-List Email Forum -
> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Okay - Okay tell me I'm just sarcastic |
on the RV-12
John Cox,
Your Comment:
The reason for asking is the additional weight on the VAN
designed spar (with extension) cannot perform to the same
standards in maneuvering speed turbulence as the prototype
N410RV used for kit certification.
Just finding out that you are an A & P you ought to be
familiar with this concept so here goes.
I remember once reading an article about A/C that have tip
tanks and how the weight on the ends of the spars would
actually dispurses the load at the wing roots.
IE: 10' 2 x 4 on 2 sawhorses placed 6" from each end. hang
8 25Lb sand bags from looped rope within the center 2' of
the 9' span between the saw horses and note the load and
stress on the 2x4. NOW take 2 of the sandbags and hang
them on the ends of the 2 x 4 and note the change in the
load. The 2x4 is still holding the 200lbs but can do it
easier with 50lbs spread out to the ends of the "wings"
This was the article's point about tip tanks which seems
like the subject of the thread. I could see how 2 souls
and extra gas in the tips could gross out the weight of the
-10 but it seems logical that the spar roots would see less
stress dynamically during flight than normal wings with a
full gross load in the cabin. I could see how static
stress on the ramp could be affected but is that really
pushing the design limits past the -G's the A/C is rated
for?
Not meaning to question your more expertise on this, but am
I on to something or missing something about maneuvering
speed turbulence?
Matt Geans
Builder Wanna-be
Do not archive (I have GOT to remember to put that in more
often)
On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:44:36 -0800
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> wrote:
> John, for the purpose of expanded clarification, do you
> espouse that
> those aircraft which have added additional fuel tanks
> have moved to the
> dark side as well? The reason for asking is the
> additional weight on
> the VAN designed spar (with extension) cannot perform to
> the same
> standards in maneuvering speed turbulence as the
> prototype N410RV used
> for kit certification.
>
>
>
> That was the reason for the phrase I used last week
> "Design for
> Aerobatic, Load to Utility and fly Standard Category...
> 3.8 G". I
> perceive many builders have dismissed it our did not
> understand the
> consequence. It was commonplace for the Lancair plastics
> to just up
> their Gross Weight on paper for certification to cover
> the additional
> mods without regard to the spar and the landing gear
> capability.
> Kabang.
>
>
>
> For those willing to move to the dark side, the process
> is as easy as
> finding a DER (Designated Engineering Rep) willing to go
> with you and
> then provide the plane for the same testing that the FAA
> required of
> VAN. Remember to pack a current chute.
>
>
>
> J Cox
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
> Of JOHN STARN
> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:59 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: RV10-List: Okay - Okay
> tell me I'm
> just sarcastic on the RV-12
>
>
>
> NOPE, I'm not, but my minor was in aeronautical
> engineering...BUT if I
> were building a -10 and wanted to change something,
> anything I'd spend a
> little bit and seek the advise of one. I'd do the same
> thing if I wanted
> to go from light shingles to a heavy tile roof on my
> home. BUT there
> seems to be a lot of -10 guys who are looking the same
> answer, sooo pool
> your funds and buy the advise. Do Not Archive. KABONG
> BE HAPPY..
>
>
>
> On the other hand maybe, just maybe, Van has considered
> all the other
> ways but he also didn't want to be "dickin' with
> anything that may
> affect the airworthiness of the plane" either.
>
>
>
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | glassing rivets into glass |
You missed this one,
ACME
Instant runway.
Just add liquid and through out of aircraft. Guaranteed to produce a
perfectly smooth 3500 foot runwway surface in 35.5 seconds form time of
exposure to moisture.
Recommended storage location, between the legs. Male pilots must fly with
fly down.
Comes with sticker for placement next to master switch, remember: ZIP IT UP!
JOhn G. Do Not Archive
>From: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: FW: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
>Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 23:17:25 -0500
>
>Whoops! sorry folks. Starting to make a holiday list and hit the send
>button by accident.
>
>do not archive
>
>
> _____
>
>From: John Jessen [mailto:jjessen@rcn.com]
>Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:16 PM
>To: 'rv10-list@matronics.com'
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
>
>
>Okay, let's go through the add on stuff. I'm up to the following:
>
>Camera in the VS
>VS intake for overhead mounted air vents (ala Ed's)
>Space saved for air conditioning
>LED position lights all around
>HID in both wings
>Wig wag in wing tips
>Pitot/static test port at the panel
>Alternate static?
>New seat belt attach points?
>Return line for tanks?
>Halon system
>Firewall material?
>Holly Cowl
>Barrette engine
>exhaust?
>
>
> _____
>
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
>Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 10:20 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
>
>
>Chris -
>
>David can best post in the first person. I think Safety improvements are a
>For Sure thing to do. Halon Fire Suppression, Shoulder harness airbags ,
>Pitot/Static test port at the panel, but the real deal winner was the
>improvement on the four passenger shoulder mounts into the composite
>substrate. His battery retention bracket was pretty cool too. Glassing
>over
>rivets was more Aesthetic than Safety
>
>
>I always apply S.A.F.E to all of VAN's final product. Can it be made
>(S)afer; more (A)esthetically pleasing; can the (F)unctionality be
>enhanced;
>and finally can things be finished more (E)rgonomically. I would like to
>think the RV-10 could be brought into the 21st century like the RV-12 which
>is by design VFR Day Only. I do love steam gages in WWII aircraft though. I
>am no fan of trying to stop a 200+ pound passenger being held down by a
>single point fastener than thinking a wet cardboard box can hold rocks. I
>am all for Glass EFIS and ergonomically canted panels and prudently placed
>controls. I still miss John Denver and Yes, my eight track is broken.
>
>
>How about Emmett Smith and those Cowboys?
>
>
>John
>
>
> _____
>
>
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
>Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:57 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
>
>
>Hey all -
>
>
>I kind of expected there to be more discussion about this. John - what is
>the meaning of "David's findings after Cooperstate" ? what are his
>modifications to the shoulder mount harness, and why are they good/bad? I
>can't really tell from your post if you think it's bad, good, or what the
>heck it all means. Are you poo-pooing or applauding? I'm considering
>using hard points in the cabin top for the rear seats seatbelts along with
>the stock front seat hard point locations. Is this a bad idea? I'm very
>much out of my element when it comes to composites, and it all seems very
>fragile to me, but whatever. Smarter people than me came up with this
>composite stuff. I'm just trying to catch up :-)
>
>
>What say you all?
>
>
>cj
>
>#40410
>
>fuse
>
>www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
>Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:54 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
>
>
>Just wondering what the "more revealing" findings were about the shoulder
>harness mods and thus the post crash survivability.
>
>
>John J
>
>
>do not archive
>
>
> _____
>
>
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
>Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:10 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
>
>Composites, even VANs RV-10 canopies do not set until the matrix reaches
>final threshold temperature (Well above 175 degrees). Carbon fiber is
>usually cured in an oven under vacuum which aids the matrix to reach target
>and the resin to reach SET. Those aircraft which use dissimilar materials
>won't see the shrink for one to three annual heat soak cycles. A have
>scores of pictures of $25K + Lancair paint jobs which enter the area just
>after the builder gets through recovering from their investment. It sneaks
>up and bites the big one.
>
>
>No RV builder is going to see this phenomena for some time, unless their
>aircraft is left in the sun of FL, TX or AZ and out in the elements for an
>extended period. This is one of the unfortunate truisms of composite
>matrix. David's findings were most interesting to view after Copperstate.
>His modifications to the shoulder harness mount are even more revealing
>when
>you address the subject of Safety and post crash survivability. Oh yeh, I
>forgot, statistically no RV-10s have crashed yet. Only one had an
>unfortunate landing in CA.
>
>
>John C
>
>#600
>
>
>Do not Archive
>
>
> _____
>
>
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
>Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 3:16 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: glassing rivets into glass
>
>
>Two pictures of my Glastar ; One had the rivets in the cowl seamed over
>with
>a single layer (1") of E glass. The rivets holding the oil access door did
>not have a layer of glass. The rivet heads appeared between 100-200 TT.
>
>IMG_0020
>IMG_0021
>
>e-mail security
>
>
>href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
>href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
>href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
>href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com
>/Navigator?RV10-List
>
>
> -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
> (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
> the Contribution link below to find out more about
> this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided
> by:
> * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com
> * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com
> * Aeroware Enterprises www.kitlog.com
> * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com
> List Contribution Web Site
> --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> Thank you for your generous support!
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> - The RV10-List Email Forum -
> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
>
>www.aeroelectric.com
>www.buildersbooks.com
>www.kitlog.com
>www.homebuilthelp.com
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
>
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