Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:13 AM - Re: IFR (KiloPapa)
2. 12:13 AM - Re: Re: smoking rivets (KiloPapa)
3. 03:54 AM - Re: Re: smoking rivets (Robert Woods)
4. 06:26 AM - Lower Motor Mount Tube Clearance (Vicki Jones)
5. 07:00 AM - Re: door latched security system (Tim Olson)
6. 07:36 AM - Re: Re: smoking rivets (Noel & Yoshie Simmons)
7. 08:26 AM - Re: IFR (John Jessen)
8. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: tailcone rivets (John Jessen)
9. 08:52 AM - Re: door latched security system (John Gonzalez)
10. 08:58 AM - Re: door latched security system (Jesse Saint)
11. 08:58 AM - Re: door latched security system (LIKE2LOOP@aol.com)
12. 09:15 AM - Re: IFR (KiloPapa)
13. 09:18 AM - Re: door latched security system (Jesse Saint)
14. 09:46 AM - Re: door latched security system - Door Closer (Larry Rosen)
15. 09:48 AM - Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks (MauleDriver)
16. 09:55 AM - Stall Warning and/or AOA (Michael Wellenzohn)
17. 10:13 AM - Re: Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks (Larry Rosen)
18. 10:22 AM - Re: Smokin Rivets (John Jessen)
19. 10:22 AM - Re: door latched security system (Vern W. Smith)
20. 10:24 AM - Re: Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks (James Hein)
21. 10:27 AM - Re: Stall Warning and/or AOA (Chris Johnston)
22. 10:35 AM - Re: Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks (John Gonzalez)
23. 10:43 AM - Re: Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks (Noel & Yoshie Simmons)
24. 10:59 AM - Re: door latched security system (Deems Davis)
25. 11:30 AM - Skin Edge Deburring (Jeff Carpenter)
26. 12:53 PM - Re: door latched security system (Vern W. Smith)
27. 01:10 PM - AOA (Fred Williams, M.D.)
28. 01:13 PM - Re: door latched security system - Door Closer (David McNeill)
29. 01:36 PM - Re: AOA (Mark Ritter)
30. 01:55 PM - Re: AOA (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
31. 02:13 PM - Setting the elevator trim tab hinge (Les Kearney)
32. 02:23 PM - Re: door latched security system (Tim Olson)
33. 02:30 PM - Re: Stall Warning and/or AOA (JSMcGrew@aol.com)
34. 02:35 PM - Re: Stall Warning and/or AOA (JSMcGrew@aol.com)
35. 02:40 PM - Re: door latched security system (Jesse Saint)
36. 02:44 PM - Re: Stall Warning and/or AOA (JSMcGrew@aol.com)
37. 03:56 PM - Re: Skin Edge Deburring (Bruce Patton)
38. 03:56 PM - Re: door latched security system (David McNeill)
39. 04:07 PM - Re: Smokin Rivets (Noel & Yoshie Simmons)
40. 06:04 PM - Door latch and Weld-On for windows (ddddsp1@juno.com)
41. 06:52 PM - Re: Door latch and Weld-On for windows (John Gonzalez)
42. 07:07 PM - Re: Door latch and Weld-On for windows (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
43. 07:10 PM - Re: Lower Motor Mount Tube Clearance (Marcus Cooper)
Message 1
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What didn't you like about Sporty's?
Thanks,
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: John Jessen
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 6:36 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: IFR
I cannot discuss this topic other than say that the Sporty's DVD set
was completely, IMHO, a waste of money. I actually sent them back.
Now, they may have changed them since I bought several years ago, so
they might be better. Gleim got me through the private and was boring
but effective. I've not seen the King material. If you can borrow a
set, just to preview them, then go buy, that'd be one route.
John Jessen
#40328 - (back at it, finally, and trying to read through over 400
emails on this list, some about taking showers?)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RE: smoking rivets |
Nice visual with the drawings. Thanks for taking the time.
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <noel@blueskyaviation.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 4:51 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RE: smoking rivets
Here are some drawings I did quickly to help picture acidental
countersinking of the base metal.
Noel
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RE: smoking rivets |
Hey Noel,
Could you resend those rivet drawings. I couldn't open due to "corrupted"
file..
Thanks.
Robb
192RL....reserved
----- Original Message -----
From: "KiloPapa" <kilopapa@antelecom.net>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: smoking rivets
Nice visual with the drawings. Thanks for taking the time.
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <noel@blueskyaviation.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 4:51 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RE: smoking rivets
Here are some drawings I did quickly to help picture acidental
countersinking of the base metal.
Noel
Message 4
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| Subject: | Lower Motor Mount Tube Clearance |
The clearance between the oil sump on my Mattituck TMXIO-540 D4A5 and the
lower mount
tube is 1/8". I have heard that Van's recommends a minimum of 3/16" but
prefers 1/2".
Has anyone had a 1/8" clearance but not had the modification completed by
Vans? If so, have you had any problems?
Thanks,
Vicki
_________________________________________________________________
Your Hotmail address already works to sign into Windows Live Messenger! Get
it now
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: door latched security system |
What happens is this:
The RV-10 doors are ok, but a bit flimsy and there is no rear
handle. So with the handle forward on the door, you pull it
in to shut it, and the front pin slides forward nicely. Often
though, you will see RV-10's with chips in the fiberglass
behind the aft pin. This is because the rear of the door
isn't pulled in as tightly and someone tried to engage
the pins (push the door handle forward). So what happens is
the pin goes not through the airframe, but chips the paint
on the outside of the plane and the pin is left sticking on
the outside of the plane, where it is useless. Worse than
that, there's now nothing holding the door from blowing
aft. So the plane takes off and the door rips itself from
the plane, or breaks the hinges.
I have heard that there have been 5 incidents so far. I know
for sure that one was a person on this list with a silver
plane, and one was a plane up here by me (not me). I don't
know who the others are.
So vans came out with a warning light kit that would be
a good idea to install...although not foolproof. No matter
what, the door pin check should be done after every single
entry/exit, and should be ingrained as part of your
preflight.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Gonzalez wrote:
>
>
> Can someone explain what happened when the door was not latched
> correctly. What did the door do? What did the plane do?
>
> JOhn G.
>
>> From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
>> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: door latched security system
>> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:21:40 -0500
>>
>> I would say that it is quite useful. If/When somebody else ever flies
>> your
>> plane, they won't understand how important it is (no matter how you
>> stress
>> it) to check the back of the doors. Seeing the lights on, though, will
>> automatically let them know that something is wrong. Ask me how I know!
>>
>>
>>
>> Do not archive.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jesse Saint
>>
>> I-TEC, Inc.
>>
>> jesse@itecusa.org
>>
>> www.itecusa.org
>>
>> Cell: 352-427-0285
>>
>> Fax: 815-377-3694
>>
>> _____
>>
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
>> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:40 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: door latched security system
>>
>>
>>
>> I spoke with Vans this week and discussed the latching system and the
>> warning lights. They indicated that the two incidents of the convertible
>> RV10 both occurred on the same airplane before and then after the light
>> system was installed. I am debating whether to install a Vans modified
>> system or just depend on the checklist and physical feel of the pins. For
>> flying 10s: have you installed the warning light system? Opinion of its
>> usefulness? For building 10s: are you installing? I have run the
>> wiring and
>> designed a simpler system whereby a light for each side is red when
>> the door
>> is unlatched (without all the automotive reversing relays).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | RE: smoking rivets |
Try these, if you can't open them someone else with greater computer skills
than I will have to intervene.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Woods
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: smoking rivets
Hey Noel,
Could you resend those rivet drawings. I couldn't open due to "corrupted"
file..
Thanks.
Robb
192RL....reserved
----- Original Message -----
From: "KiloPapa" <kilopapa@antelecom.net>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: smoking rivets
Nice visual with the drawings. Thanks for taking the time.
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <noel@blueskyaviation.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 4:51 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RE: smoking rivets
Here are some drawings I did quickly to help picture acidental
countersinking of the base metal.
Noel
Message 7
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Yes, sorry. I should not say I don't like something and not explain why.
I'm pretty sure that Sporty's moved their tape product over to the DVD's
just to get something out in that format. So what you got was not as much
interactivity as it was straight monologue. Also, at the time, I was
getting more information from reading IFR manuals, such as the Jeppesen
tome. The Sporty's simply had a person talking to you, quickly, as if
reading from a book. Very little, and I mean very little, explanation about
anything, none of the "gotchas" that you need to understand if you don't
follow the regs here or there. Plus I didn't like the person doing the
talking. The first DVD or CD-ROM, not sure what format, actually, it came
on, was Richard Collins, and that's what got me hooked. It was an IFR
flight that he took the viewer on, explaining what happens and what you have
to do when an emergency situation makes everyone's plans go awry. That was
interesting and gave me a sense of how, in actual IMC, one has to be able to
react. The rest was not as informative. I would have to think that they
have updated since then.
John Jessen
#40328 (edge deburring everything is sight)
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: IFR
What didn't you like about Sporty's?
Thanks,
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:jjessen@rcn.com"John Jessen
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 6:36 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: IFR
I cannot discuss this topic other than say that the Sporty's DVD set was
completely, IMHO, a waste of money. I actually sent them back. Now, they
may have changed them since I bought several years ago, so they might be
better. Gleim got me through the private and was boring but effective.
I've not seen the King material. If you can borrow a set, just to preview
them, then go buy, that'd be one route.
John Jessen
#40328 - (back at it, finally, and trying to read through over 400 emails
on this list, some about taking showers?)
"http://www.aeroelectric.com"www.aeroelectric.com
"http://www.buildersbooks.com"www.buildersbooks.com
"http://www.kitlog.com"www.kitlog.com
"http://www.homebuilthelp.com"www.homebuilthelp.com
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribution
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"http://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?RV10-List
1:45 PM
--
1:45 PM
Message 8
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| Subject: | RE: tailcone rivets |
Bruce, I had to hide them because it's a family web site. That rear shot of
your was just to provocative.
Try this:
http://www.soundingsresearch.com/RV-10/Techniques/Techniques_08.htm
Also, I noticed some screwy things happening on the site, and at least one
person has pointed this out to me. I'll try to get it fixed today. Still
an amateur at this stuff.
John Jessen
#40328 (bah humbug to all this Holiday stuff; got me some deburrrrrrrring
to do)
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bruce
breckenridge
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 5:24 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RE: tailcone rivets
John Jessen recorded how I did mine. I looked on his website, but just
couldn't find the pics!
I used a back rivet plate; flipped the cone over on it's top and made sure
it was on the plate. Because the cone overhung my table, I could stand in
the hole of the missing forward top skin and lean into the cone. To be sure
I was flat on the back rivet plate, I used a 1" (or so) round stick-on
bubble level laid right next to the rivet I was going to smash. Because it
was a little bit of a tight fit between the stringers, I could lean left or
right and the cone would rotate until the bubble was centered. I don't
recall having to drill out any of the rivets set with this method.
Hopefully, John will pipe in and direct you to his website where this
technique is documented.
Bruce Breckenridge
40018 Wings
--
1:45 PM
--
1:45 PM
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: door latched security system |
This is not good news that this happened, but for me it is good news to know
that the door does break away from the airframe while in flight and that the
plane still flies dispite the huge hole in the side of the airframe.
Why do I care? My desire to have everyone wearing a parachutte. Nice to
know the door may not clamshell and scissor you to death on exit, but one
never knows the behavior of the plane in such an emergency.
It sounds to me that rather than design a light, a new latch needs to be
designed.
One more thing to think about when I get there, unless someone beats me to
it. Three point latch with the bottom one sucking in the door (Friction
latch) to allow the fore and aft pins to engage the frame.
Thanks,
John
>From: "David McNeill" <dlm46007@cox.net>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: door latched security system
>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:19:19 -0700
>
>
>the door departed the aircraft on takeoff and the aircraft was flown around
>the pattern and landed. Very little damage as I understand it and the door
>was returned to the aircraft. The Van's kit was distributed to builders and
>installed on said aircraft. My understanding was the lights worked as
>advertised but the pilot took off again and lost the door again. My guess
>is that the door is warped and difficult to insert the rear latch pin;
>apparently extends outside the door frame. Perhaps someone else has more
>info?
>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 10:33 PM
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: door latched security system
>
>
>>
>>
>>Can someone explain what happened when the door was not latched correctly.
>>What did the door do? What did the plane do?
>>
>>JOhn G.
>>
>>>From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
>>>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>>>Subject: RE: RV10-List: door latched security system
>>>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:21:40 -0500
>>>
>>>I would say that it is quite useful. If/When somebody else ever flies
>>>your
>>>plane, they won't understand how important it is (no matter how you
>>>stress
>>>it) to check the back of the doors. Seeing the lights on, though, will
>>>automatically let them know that something is wrong. Ask me how I know!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Do not archive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Jesse Saint
>>>
>>>I-TEC, Inc.
>>>
>>>jesse@itecusa.org
>>>
>>>www.itecusa.org
>>>
>>>Cell: 352-427-0285
>>>
>>>Fax: 815-377-3694
>>>
>>> _____
>>>
>>>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
>>>Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:40 PM
>>>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: RV10-List: door latched security system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I spoke with Vans this week and discussed the latching system and the
>>>warning lights. They indicated that the two incidents of the convertible
>>>RV10 both occurred on the same airplane before and then after the light
>>>system was installed. I am debating whether to install a Vans modified
>>>system or just depend on the checklist and physical feel of the pins. For
>>>flying 10s: have you installed the warning light system? Opinion of its
>>>usefulness? For building 10s: are you installing? I have run the wiring
>>>and
>>>designed a simpler system whereby a light for each side is red when the
>>>door
>>>is unlatched (without all the automotive reversing relays).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | door latched security system |
On the story that I "heard through the grape vine" A door opened on takeoff
because the rear pin was not in. The Lord was merciful and the door did not
actually depart the aircraft when it flew open, but one of the hinges broke
and part of the fiberglass was damaged. It was at an airport away from
home, so the door was closed on the ground with the pins, even with the
broken hinge, and flown home without any trouble. The hinges were replaces,
the fiberglass fixed, and now it is fine. That plane now has another
security mechanism that is not pretty, but is very functional that will not
allow the door to come open even if the latches are not latched. I see a
request for pictures coming...if I get a chance to ask this "hypothetical
person" about this "hypothetical plane" to get some "hypothetical pictures",
I will post them. Oh, btw, it was N256H being flown by a pilot who was not
the owner and it happened in Pensacola, FL. I hear it gets very windy very
fast.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 12:33 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: door latched security system
Can someone explain what happened when the door was not latched correctly.
What did the door do? What did the plane do?
JOhn G.
>From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@itecusa.org>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: door latched security system
>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:21:40 -0500
>
>I would say that it is quite useful. If/When somebody else ever flies your
>plane, they won't understand how important it is (no matter how you stress
>it) to check the back of the doors. Seeing the lights on, though, will
>automatically let them know that something is wrong. Ask me how I know!
>
>
>Do not archive.
>
>
>Jesse Saint
>
>I-TEC, Inc.
>
>jesse@itecusa.org
>
>www.itecusa.org
>
>Cell: 352-427-0285
>
>Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> _____
>
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
>Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:40 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: door latched security system
>
>
>I spoke with Vans this week and discussed the latching system and the
>warning lights. They indicated that the two incidents of the convertible
>RV10 both occurred on the same airplane before and then after the light
>system was installed. I am debating whether to install a Vans modified
>system or just depend on the checklist and physical feel of the pins. For
>flying 10s: have you installed the warning light system? Opinion of its
>usefulness? For building 10s: are you installing? I have run the wiring and
>designed a simpler system whereby a light for each side is red when the
>door
>is unlatched (without all the automotive reversing relays).
>
>
--
1:45 PM
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: door latched security system |
In a message dated 12/19/06 11:54:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
indigoonlatigo@msn.com writes:
It sounds to me that rather than design a light, a new latch needs to be
designed.
One more thing to think about when I get there, unless someone beats me to
it. Three point latch with the bottom one sucking in the door (Friction
latch) to allow the fore and aft pins to engage the frame.
YES!! that is new thinking. EVERY RV-10 i have seen has the outside paint
chipped next to the poorly designed pin latch. Who is an engineer out there,
design a part for 500+ customers!! x 2 doors.
Do not archive
Steve
Message 12
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Thanks for the additional information.
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: John Jessen
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 8:24 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: IFR
Yes, sorry. I should not say I don't like something and not explain
why.
I'm pretty sure that Sporty's moved their tape product over to the
DVD's just to get something out in that format. So what you got was not
as much interactivity as it was straight monologue. Also, at the time,
I was getting more information from reading IFR manuals, such as the
Jeppesen tome. The Sporty's simply had a person talking to you,
quickly, as if reading from a book. Very little, and I mean very
little, explanation about anything, none of the "gotchas" that you need
to understand if you don't follow the regs here or there. Plus I didn't
like the person doing the talking. The first DVD or CD-ROM, not sure
what format, actually, it came on, was Richard Collins, and that's what
got me hooked. It was an IFR flight that he took the viewer on,
explaining what happens and what you have to do when an emergency
situation makes everyone's plans go awry. That was interesting and gave
me a sense of how, in actual IMC, one has to be able to react. The rest
was not as informative. I would have to think that they have updated
since then.
John Jessen
#40328 (edge deburring everything is sight)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 12:12 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: IFR
What didn't you like about Sporty's?
Thanks,
Kevin
40494
tail/empennage
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | door latched security system |
No aft handle? Paint chipped? Those are things of the past.for some. This
aft handle and these stainless plates make a big difference. The latch
system is very functional (although ugly), but the problem comes in when you
pull on the front part of a fairly flimsy door and the aft pin misses.
Having the aft handle makes a HUGE difference in getting the door closed.
Also, the strike plates also help if the door pins are part of the way out
with the door open and the door falls/closes (am I the only one that has had
problems with some of the shocks being too weak to hold the doors?).
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LIKE2LOOP@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: door latched security system
In a message dated 12/19/06 11:54:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
indigoonlatigo@msn.com writes:
It sounds to me that rather than design a light, a new latch needs to be
designed.
One more thing to think about when I get there, unless someone beats me to
it. Three point latch with the bottom one sucking in the door (Friction
latch) to allow the fore and aft pins to engage the frame.
YES!! that is new thinking. EVERY RV-10 i have seen has the outside
paint chipped next to the poorly designed pin latch. Who is an engineer out
there, design a part for 500+ customers!! x 2 doors.
Do not archive
Steve
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: door latched security system - Door Closer |
Anyone have a solution to add a rear handle. How would it attach to the
fiberglass door? Would any reinforcement be necessary.
Here is a photo of the Lancair closer
<http://lrosen.nerv10.com/door%5Fhandle/>
and also what looks like one on Vic's RV-10
<http://lrosen.nerv10.com/Construct/SunNFun_2006/Vic%20RV10/slides/2006-04-07-SnF-13.html>
Larry Rosen
#356
Tim Olson wrote:
>
> there is no rear handle.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks |
I find that sandpaper on an aluminum block makes deburring long straight
edges pretty easy. The disksander works well on smaller parts. I'm
thinking of using a rubber block on some of those gently curving skins
on the tailcone.
Any thoughts on optimal grit and type of paper for this kind of work?
Aluminum oxide would seem to be a good choice but I just don't know.
What do you do?
Noel and Yoshie I believe mentioned using sandpaper for some hole
deburring - can you comment as to how and with what? I assume they are
using a block on prepunched sheets to knock down the 'volcanoes'. Would
you wait until after dimpling or while it's flat? BTW, thanks for the
tip about using a dimpled piece of scrap for dimpling sheet that will
need to accept another dimpled piece. Will be trying that.
Thanks all,
Bill "disassembling the tailcone and still riveting the elevator/trim
tab" Watson #40605
Message 16
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| Subject: | Stall Warning and/or AOA |
Hello group,
for those who are flying did you build the standard stall warning into the wing
or an AOA or both?
Thanks
Michael
#40511 (QB Wings)
http://www.wellenzohn.net
--------
RV-10 builder (wings)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82466#82466
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks |
Another question, I have to drill a hole to put in a pop rivet since I
cannot get to the back side. I can ream the hole, how do I debur the
back side?
Larry
MauleDriver wrote:
>
> I find that sandpaper on an aluminum block makes deburring long
> straight edges pretty easy. The disksander works well on smaller
> parts. I'm thinking of using a rubber block on some of those gently
> curving skins on the tailcone.
>
> Any thoughts on optimal grit and type of paper for this kind of work?
> Aluminum oxide would seem to be a good choice but I just don't know.
> What do you do?
>
> Noel and Yoshie I believe mentioned using sandpaper for some hole
> deburring - can you comment as to how and with what? I assume they
> are using a block on prepunched sheets to knock down the 'volcanoes'.
> Would you wait until after dimpling or while it's flat? BTW, thanks
> for the tip about using a dimpled piece of scrap for dimpling sheet
> that will need to accept another dimpled piece. Will be trying that.
>
> Thanks all,
> Bill "disassembling the tailcone and still riveting the elevator/trim
> tab" Watson #40605
>
>
Message 18
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Noel, thanks for the informative post. Can you enlighten me about point
number 3f, below? I'm not getting the mental image of what you're
saying.
Thanks,
John Jessen
do not archive
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel & Yoshie
Simmons
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 11:35 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Smokin Rivets
The anatomy of the smokin=92 rivet.
What is smoke? The black residue that streams down wind of a rivet is
Aluminum oxide, the second hardest substance on earth with the first
being
diamonds. Aluminum oxide is a by product of corrosion that naturally
occurs. Aluminums is considered to be self lubricating, meaning it will
continue to sluff, and the aluminum oxide being harder than the base
metal
will exponentially carve more aluminum oxide out of the base metal,
A rivet that has been properly set will eventually smoke given a
structure
subjected to vibration that has been under engineered, meaning not
enough
rivets per inch. I have seen, and repaired these structures (again and
again), mostly engine nacelles on jets, fortunately or unfortunately how
every you want to look at the subject, Van=92s aircraft does not have
any
under engineered structures that would qualify for the under engineered
place to look for smoking rivets. Yes all rivet joints move to one
degree
or another so a rivet can be set in such a way that it will smoke. In
conclusion smoking rivets on RV is a builder flaw.
How to set rivets that will smoke.
First let us look at the parts that Van=92s sends us. The Punching
process is
extremely actuate, Fin Power CNC punch press have a tolerance of .004 in
8
linear feet. Van=92s has CAD people that really know their system and
can
tell the punch press exactly where to put holes. Given the .004
tolerance
there are some places on the aircraft that have the same hole in 4
sheets of
aluminum that each have this tolerance so you will see holes that are a
little hard to put a reamer through, but is still very accurate.
The punching action causes aluminum to =93flow=94. That is the cause of
the
volcano on the exit side of the sheet. This flow is not like the burr
created from using a drill bit. You must remove the volcano completely
with
out countersinking the base metal.
Below is how to cause voids and entrap, well let=92s call it =91Stuff=92
for lack
of better words, which promote the corrosive environment to create
copious
amounts of SMOKE.
1. Use a drill bit instead of a reamer.
a. Just for giggles take a =BC=94 drill bit and begin drilling a
hole in a
piece of .032 sheet metal. You will see that the hole that begins to
develop is triangular, and as the drill bit finally passes the hole is
not
truly round. This is obviously a start of voids in the rivet joint.
b. USE a Reamer they turn triangular holes into properly sized
round
ones. Reamers should be used everywhere on the van=92s pre-punched
holes
2. Don=92t deburr/ deburr to deeply
a. The punching process causes a volcano like structure on the
punch
exit. Not only will this cause a void but will chip the rim of the
volcano
into the joint acting like grist in a roller mill.
b. The head and or shop head will sit up on the volcano and will
not
properly clamp the rivet joint.
c. Deburring to deeply is a very, very common mistake RV
builder=92s
make due to the punching process.
d. Look at some of the heavier aluminum that has been punched with
1/8=94
holes. You will see one side that is pressed in and the other side will
be
coned out like a volcano. If you take a 100 degree countersink or some
of
the other rotary deburring tools and cut this volcano off to the point
that
there is no aluminum that protrudes above the base metal you will have a
shallow countersink. This shallow countersink WILL NOT be completely
filled
by the expansion of a rivet. This is the stating point of corrosion
e. We use sand paper to deburr. The sand paper will remove the
volcano with out causing a shallow countersink. Two notes WE PRIME, WE
don=92t build polished aircraft.
3. Dimpling / countersinking the sub structure with the same dimple
as
the skin.
a. Easy test, take two small pieces of scrap aluminum and drill
#30
holes, Deburr.
b. Dimple each with your #30 dimple dies.
c. Mate the two pieces and you will see that they don=92t fit very
well.
This cause lots of voids and is the primary thing that RV builders do to
cause smoke.
d. Take those same two pieces of aluminum and dimple them together
using your #30 dimple dies.
i. Better fit isn=92t it! They don=92t rock like a bobble head
doll
e. Point here is that most people don=92t dimple the substructures
(ribs) to =93receive=94 the overlaying dimple.
f. We take a small =BD=94X 1/2=94 scrap and attach it to the male
dimple
die to dimple all the sub structure. This eliminates the rocking caused
by
having two improperly formed dimples pinched together by a rivet.
g. I have seen people dimpling with the plastic sill in place, bad
idea.
h. I have seen people afraid of over dimpling so they hit the
dimplier
once instead of twice (real hard). Dimpling is a forming process that
must
be complete; a half dimple will cause the skin to warp, bad idea.
Sorry if this is a little anal, I have spent many years trying to get
the
best looking rivets I can. I have piles of scrap that I drill holes in
and
look at with a magnifying glass. Rivet and inspect, change the technique
a
little here and there then drill and rivet inspect until ,In my opinion
we
do some of the finest riveting on RV=92s. Every airplane we do get=92s
a little
better and a little faster.
Noel Simmons
Blue Sky Aviation, Inc.
HYPERLINK "http://www.blueskyaviation.net/"www.blueskyaviation.net
"http://www.aeroelectric.com"www.aeroelectric.com
"http://www.buildersbooks.com"www.buildersbooks.com
"http://www.kitlog.com"www.kitlog.com
"http://www.homebuilthelp.com"www.homebuilthelp.com
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribut
ion
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"http://www.matronics.com/Na
vig
ator?RV10-List
12/19/2006
1:17 PM
--
12/19/2006
1:17 PM
Message 19
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| Subject: | door latched security system |
If the doors are a bit flimsy, would it work to run some foam and fiber
glass "spars" inside to frame work between the inside and outside
shells?
Just looking at the drawing if an X shaped frame work was added above
and below the window it seems like it would help. Downside is it would
add some weight to the doors.
Vern (#324 fuselage)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: door latched security system
What happens is this:
The RV-10 doors are ok, but a bit flimsy and there is no rear
handle. So with the handle forward on the door, you pull it
in to shut it, and the front pin slides forward nicely. Often
though, you will see RV-10's with chips in the fiberglass
behind the aft pin. This is because the rear of the door
isn't pulled in as tightly and someone tried to engage
the pins (push the door handle forward). So what happens is
the pin goes not through the airframe, but chips the paint
on the outside of the plane and the pin is left sticking on
the outside of the plane, where it is useless. Worse than
that, there's now nothing holding the door from blowing
aft. So the plane takes off and the door rips itself from
the plane, or breaks the hinges.
I have heard that there have been 5 incidents so far. I know
for sure that one was a person on this list with a silver
plane, and one was a plane up here by me (not me). I don't
know who the others are.
So vans came out with a warning light kit that would be
a good idea to install...although not foolproof. No matter
what, the door pin check should be done after every single
entry/exit, and should be ingrained as part of your
preflight.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks |
>how do I debur the back side?
Use a Cogsdil Burraway tool.
<http://www.cogsdill.com/pdf%20files/usdeb_burraway.pdf>
Nifty little tool...
-Jim 40384
Larry Rosen wrote:
>
> Another question, I have to drill a hole to put in a pop rivet since I
> cannot get to the back side. I can ream the hole, how do I debur the
> back side?
>
> Larry
>
> MauleDriver wrote:
>>
>> I find that sandpaper on an aluminum block makes deburring long
>> straight edges pretty easy. The disksander works well on smaller
>> parts. I'm thinking of using a rubber block on some of those gently
>> curving skins on the tailcone.
>>
>> Any thoughts on optimal grit and type of paper for this kind of
>> work? Aluminum oxide would seem to be a good choice but I just don't
>> know. What do you do?
>>
>> Noel and Yoshie I believe mentioned using sandpaper for some hole
>> deburring - can you comment as to how and with what? I assume they
>> are using a block on prepunched sheets to knock down the
>> 'volcanoes'. Would you wait until after dimpling or while it's
>> flat? BTW, thanks for the tip about using a dimpled piece of scrap
>> for dimpling sheet that will need to accept another dimpled piece.
>> Will be trying that.
>>
>> Thanks all,
>> Bill "disassembling the tailcone and still riveting the elevator/trim
>> tab" Watson #40605
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Stall Warning and/or AOA |
Went with only AOA. Riveted stall warning holes closed with 426 3-3
rivets.
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Wellenzohn
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 9:54 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Stall Warning and/or AOA
<michael@wellenzohn.net>
Hello group,
for those who are flying did you build the standard stall warning into
the wing or an AOA or both?
Thanks
Michael
#40511 (QB Wings)
http://www.wellenzohn.net
--------
RV-10 builder (wings)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82466#82466
Message 22
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| Subject: | Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks |
One of the tols I think works great are the fingernail emory boards, not the
normal ones with the red/brown/orange sandpaper, but the ones with the black
sandpaper and thick sanding core backing. There are two grits one on each
side.
John
>From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
>To: RV10-List Digest Server <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV10-List: Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks
>Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:47:07 -0500
>
>
>I find that sandpaper on an aluminum block makes deburring long straight
>edges pretty easy. The disksander works well on smaller parts. I'm
>thinking of using a rubber block on some of those gently curving skins on
>the tailcone.
>
>Any thoughts on optimal grit and type of paper for this kind of work?
>Aluminum oxide would seem to be a good choice but I just don't know. What
>do you do?
>
>Noel and Yoshie I believe mentioned using sandpaper for some hole deburring
>- can you comment as to how and with what? I assume they are using a block
>on prepunched sheets to knock down the 'volcanoes'. Would you wait until
>after dimpling or while it's flat? BTW, thanks for the tip about using a
>dimpled piece of scrap for dimpling sheet that will need to accept another
>dimpled piece. Will be trying that.
>
>Thanks all,
>Bill "disassembling the tailcone and still riveting the elevator/trim tab"
>Watson #40605
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks |
In certain cases you can deburr like piper aircraft.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Using Sandpaper for various deburring tasks
Another question, I have to drill a hole to put in a pop rivet since I
cannot get to the back side. I can ream the hole, how do I debur the
back side?
Larry
MauleDriver wrote:
>
> I find that sandpaper on an aluminum block makes deburring long
> straight edges pretty easy. The disksander works well on smaller
> parts. I'm thinking of using a rubber block on some of those gently
> curving skins on the tailcone.
>
> Any thoughts on optimal grit and type of paper for this kind of work?
> Aluminum oxide would seem to be a good choice but I just don't know.
> What do you do?
>
> Noel and Yoshie I believe mentioned using sandpaper for some hole
> deburring - can you comment as to how and with what? I assume they
> are using a block on prepunched sheets to knock down the 'volcanoes'.
> Would you wait until after dimpling or while it's flat? BTW, thanks
> for the tip about using a dimpled piece of scrap for dimpling sheet
> that will need to accept another dimpled piece. Will be trying that.
>
> Thanks all,
> Bill "disassembling the tailcone and still riveting the elevator/trim
> tab" Watson #40605
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: door latched security system |
I don't think the 'flimsyness' of the doors is related to their stucture
per se, (There is some reinforcement vis a glass matt that 'locks' the
doors internally) but rather to the manner in which they are attached to
the Cabin Cover. they are attached with 2 hinges that are aprox 12-14"
apart at the top of the door. Physics and legerage take over when you
open the door and the long moment between the wide bottom of the door
where the latches are located and the relatively narrow hinge attachment
makes for an easily twistable situation. I believe that most of the
'twist' comes from the immediate area that surrounds the hinges in at
the top of the door. You could try reinforcing that area, but the
inherant nature and flex of fiberglass is still going to be an issue
IMHO. The windows are also smack dab in the middle of this area.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
Vern W. Smith wrote:
>
>If the doors are a bit flimsy, would it work to run some foam and fiber
>glass "spars" inside to frame work between the inside and outside
>shells?
>Just looking at the drawing if an X shaped frame work was added above
>and below the window it seems like it would help. Downside is it would
>add some weight to the doors.
>
>Vern (#324 fuselage)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
>Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:00 AM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: door latched security system
>
>
>What happens is this:
>
>The RV-10 doors are ok, but a bit flimsy and there is no rear
>handle. So with the handle forward on the door, you pull it
>in to shut it, and the front pin slides forward nicely. Often
>though, you will see RV-10's with chips in the fiberglass
>behind the aft pin. This is because the rear of the door
>isn't pulled in as tightly and someone tried to engage
>the pins (push the door handle forward). So what happens is
>the pin goes not through the airframe, but chips the paint
>on the outside of the plane and the pin is left sticking on
>the outside of the plane, where it is useless. Worse than
>that, there's now nothing holding the door from blowing
>aft. So the plane takes off and the door rips itself from
>the plane, or breaks the hinges.
>
>I have heard that there have been 5 incidents so far. I know
>for sure that one was a person on this list with a silver
>plane, and one was a plane up here by me (not me). I don't
>know who the others are.
>
>So vans came out with a warning light kit that would be
>a good idea to install...although not foolproof. No matter
>what, the door pin check should be done after every single
>entry/exit, and should be ingrained as part of your
>preflight.
>
>
>Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>do not archive
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Skin Edge Deburring |
I see some discussion today about edge deburring, and thought I'd
share a method I learned from another 10 builder (Nick Gautier) a
couple of miles from me. This technique has cut my edge deburring
time from 15-20 minutes per large skin down to 2-3 minutes and it is
unbelievably simple:
Take a curved tooth file (with the handle removed) and run it
lengthwise flat to the edge of the skin. On the return trip, run the
file lengthwise at a 45 degree angle to the top side of the edge and
make a final pass with the file lengthwise at a 45 degree angle to
the bottom side of the edge.
The result is an edge that is far smoother than anything I've been
able to accomplish with my double edge deburring tool... or any other
method I've fumbled around with.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Message 26
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| Subject: | door latched security system |
Thanks, I think I understand the problem more clearly. Another fix maybe
to build the door or hang the hinges with a preload so the back of the
door always comes in contact with frame opening before the front of the
door contacts the frame. Or maybe install a fisheye mirror somewhere to
visual check the doors. Anyway, I look forward to this new challenge.
Till then it's time to pound the rivets:)
Vern (#324 fuselage)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: door latched security system
I don't think the 'flimsyness' of the doors is related to their stucture
per se, (There is some reinforcement vis a glass matt that 'locks' the
doors internally) but rather to the manner in which they are attached to
the Cabin Cover. they are attached with 2 hinges that are aprox 12-14"
apart at the top of the door. Physics and legerage take over when you
open the door and the long moment between the wide bottom of the door
where the latches are located and the relatively narrow hinge attachment
makes for an easily twistable situation. I believe that most of the
'twist' comes from the immediate area that surrounds the hinges in at
the top of the door. You could try reinforcing that area, but the
inherant nature and flex of fiberglass is still going to be an issue
IMHO. The windows are also smack dab in the middle of this area.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
Vern W. Smith wrote:
>
>If the doors are a bit flimsy, would it work to run some foam and fiber
>glass "spars" inside to frame work between the inside and outside
>shells?
>Just looking at the drawing if an X shaped frame work was added above
>and below the window it seems like it would help. Downside is it would
>add some weight to the doors.
>
>Vern (#324 fuselage)
>
Message 27
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|
I built in both. Makes sense not to put in the regular stall warning
device, but I opted to have the other as an starting backup. As I
understand it, the AOA will not be calibrated until one "flys " the
unit. I didn't want to be flying my new 10 and not be able to recognize
an approaching stall.
I do plan to get transition training and from what I understand that is
one of the first things that one goes over in the training.
Fred Williams
40515
working on wings.
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: door latched security system - Door Closer |
I plan to add a rear handle and the easy way to do it is create a couple of
1/2" circular hardpoints in the doors then drill and tap. Also considering
adding another hand inserted pin for each door at the rear.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Rosen" <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: door latched security system - Door Closer
>
> Anyone have a solution to add a rear handle. How would it attach to the
> fiberglass door? Would any reinforcement be necessary.
>
> Here is a photo of the Lancair closer
> <http://lrosen.nerv10.com/door%5Fhandle/>
> and also what looks like one on Vic's RV-10
> <http://lrosen.nerv10.com/Construct/SunNFun_2006/Vic%20RV10/slides/2006-04-07-SnF-13.html>
>
> Larry Rosen
> #356
>
> Tim Olson wrote:
>>
>> there is no rear handle.
>
>
>
Message 29
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I believe you can order an AOA that is calibrated for the RV-10. Mine was
and it works great.
Mark (N410MR Flying)
>From: "Fred Williams, M.D." <drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: AOA
>Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:00:57 -0600
>
><drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
>
>I built in both. Makes sense not to put in the regular stall warning
>device, but I opted to have the other as an starting backup. As I
>understand it, the AOA will not be calibrated until one "flys " the unit.
>I didn't want to be flying my new 10 and not be able to recognize an
>approaching stall.
>
>I do plan to get transition training and from what I understand that is one
>of the first things that one goes over in the training.
>
>Fred Williams
>40515
>working on wings.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Fixing up the home? Live Search can help
Message 30
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Rob at AFS has a predefined profile for the -10 built into his units
that is supposed to be fairly accurate out of the box.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred
Williams, M.D.
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 1:01 PM
Subject: RV10-List: AOA
<drfred@suddenlinkmail.com>
I built in both. Makes sense not to put in the regular stall warning
device, but I opted to have the other as an starting backup. As I
understand it, the AOA will not be calibrated until one "flys " the
unit. I didn't want to be flying my new 10 and not be able to recognize
an approaching stall.
I do plan to get transition training and from what I understand that is
one of the first things that one goes over in the training.
Fred Williams
40515
working on wings.
Message 31
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| Subject: | Setting the elevator trim tab hinge |
Hi
A local builder passed on his method for getting perfect alignment of
the
elevator trim tab when installing the piano hinge. Based on his
instruction
this is what I did:
* Cut a piece of thin aluminum stock into a template strip the
same
size as the hinge to be installed.
* Cleco clamped the template strip to the trim tab as if it was
the
hinge matching sure that the inboard side lined up with the trim tab
* Match drilled the template to the trim tab and clecoed every
hole
* Fitted the trim tab with the template piece in place to the
elevator setting up the alignment desired (a piece of angle aluminum
made a
great straight edge for alignment)
* Matched drilled a few holes on the elevator side of the
template
(roughly evenly spaced)
* Drew a rivet line on the trim tab side of the piano hinge and
cleco clamped the template to it. Care was taken to ensure that the
rivet
line went through the center of each hole on the trim tab side of the
template.
* Match drilled the piano hinge using the template. All the
holes,
including the few on the elevator side were drilled.
* The piano hinge was clecoed to the trim tab and the elevator
and
all remaining holes were match drilled.
At that pointed I riveted everything together. The end result is a trim
tab
trailing edge that exactly matches the trailing edge of the elevator. As
well the outboard alignment is exact as well. I guess this method works
so
well because it eliminates using the piano hinge for whole alignment
(there
is a small bit of play in the hinge).
Attached are three of pictures.
* One shows the template installed (I had to redo it because I didn't
size it correctly so it doesn't match the next photo). The template
still
has the blue vinyl sheath still on so it is quite visible where the
hinge is
to be installed.
* The next shows the alignment of the trim tab to the elevator after I
had match drilled a couple of holes on the elevator side of the
template.
The angle aluminum at the bottom was used to set the alignment.
* The final photo shows the end result
Cheers
Les
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: door latched security system |
Actually, it's pretty easy to see if you have a door not shut properly.
The hard part is just remembering to check. You can also just
reach around behind the door and feel for the pin protruding into
the cabin in the back. From a simplicity and security standpoint,
I think Van's latch pins are great. Having some fancier latches
could possibly just cause additional problems. The real help would
just be having a rear pull so you could pull evenly on the door.
Nothing too complex about the problem, or the check.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Vern W. Smith wrote:
>
> Thanks, I think I understand the problem more clearly. Another fix maybe
> to build the door or hang the hinges with a preload so the back of the
> door always comes in contact with frame opening before the front of the
> door contacts the frame. Or maybe install a fisheye mirror somewhere to
> visual check the doors. Anyway, I look forward to this new challenge.
> Till then it's time to pound the rivets:)
>
> Vern (#324 fuselage)
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:59 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: door latched security system
>
>
> I don't think the 'flimsyness' of the doors is related to their stucture
>
> per se, (There is some reinforcement vis a glass matt that 'locks' the
> doors internally) but rather to the manner in which they are attached to
>
> the Cabin Cover. they are attached with 2 hinges that are aprox 12-14"
> apart at the top of the door. Physics and legerage take over when you
> open the door and the long moment between the wide bottom of the door
> where the latches are located and the relatively narrow hinge attachment
>
> makes for an easily twistable situation. I believe that most of the
> 'twist' comes from the immediate area that surrounds the hinges in at
> the top of the door. You could try reinforcing that area, but the
> inherant nature and flex of fiberglass is still going to be an issue
> IMHO. The windows are also smack dab in the middle of this area.
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
> http://deemsrv10.com/
>
>
>
> Vern W. Smith wrote:
>
>>
>> If the doors are a bit flimsy, would it work to run some foam and fiber
>> glass "spars" inside to frame work between the inside and outside
>> shells?
>> Just looking at the drawing if an X shaped frame work was added above
>> and below the window it seems like it would help. Downside is it would
>> add some weight to the doors.
>>
>> Vern (#324 fuselage)
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Stall Warning and/or AOA |
I built in both AOA and the standard stall warning. The stall warning works
very well once the tab is adjusted correctly. Even more importantly my RV-10
really lets me know when it is going to stall. After training with Mike
Seager and practice during flight testing I would have to be extremely distracted
to miss the buffet and feel of the airplane before it stalls (actual mileage
may vary).
Maybe I failed to calibrate the AOA system correctly the first, second or
third times, but I can't get it to provide useful information. Additionally, the
"AOA PUSH!" voice is extremely distracting during slow flight, take off and
flare to land. (The calibration was bad on my first flight and I had to
listen to that voice continuously during my first flight - as if I didn't have
enough to deal with). I loved AOA in the T-38 and F-15. In theory, it is a very
nice back up system to have on board. I haven't given up yet, but I am
struggling to get it to provide useful information in the RV-10.
Jim
40134
In a message dated 12/19/2006 12:57:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
michael@wellenzohn.net writes:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Michael Wellenzohn"
<michael@wellenzohn.net>
Hello group,
for those who are flying did you build the standard stall warning into the
wing or an AOA or both?
Thanks
Michael
#40511 (QB Wings)
http://www.wellenzohn.net
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Stall Warning and/or AOA |
-----------------------------1166567309--
Message 35
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| Subject: | door latched security system |
And adding some weight to the doors would render the shocks useless as
designed (they are barely strong enough as it is). The door, when closed
properly, is as strong as it needs to be. The strength, IMHO, proves to be
lacking a little when trying to close the door by just holding on to the
front handle. Adding the rear handle (just a place to grab, not anything
fancy) really helps with that. To do this, we just drilled 2 3/4" holes in
the inside of the shell where we wanted the handle, filled the area with
flocks, then drilled the holes and put in countersunk screws from the
outside. The handle is a cupboard handle from Lowe's, I think. It works
well, looks good (IMHO) and is very easy. The only downside I see is the
two screw heads showing on the outside, but you already have two at the door
handle, and about 1,500 on the wing root fairings, so what's two more?
Just my thoughts, no engineering or technical knowledge used.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern W. Smith
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: door latched security system
If the doors are a bit flimsy, would it work to run some foam and fiber
glass "spars" inside to frame work between the inside and outside
shells?
Just looking at the drawing if an X shaped frame work was added above
and below the window it seems like it would help. Downside is it would
add some weight to the doors.
Vern (#324 fuselage)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: door latched security system
What happens is this:
The RV-10 doors are ok, but a bit flimsy and there is no rear
handle. So with the handle forward on the door, you pull it
in to shut it, and the front pin slides forward nicely. Often
though, you will see RV-10's with chips in the fiberglass
behind the aft pin. This is because the rear of the door
isn't pulled in as tightly and someone tried to engage
the pins (push the door handle forward). So what happens is
the pin goes not through the airframe, but chips the paint
on the outside of the plane and the pin is left sticking on
the outside of the plane, where it is useless. Worse than
that, there's now nothing holding the door from blowing
aft. So the plane takes off and the door rips itself from
the plane, or breaks the hinges.
I have heard that there have been 5 incidents so far. I know
for sure that one was a person on this list with a silver
plane, and one was a plane up here by me (not me). I don't
know who the others are.
So vans came out with a warning light kit that would be
a good idea to install...although not foolproof. No matter
what, the door pin check should be done after every single
entry/exit, and should be ingrained as part of your
preflight.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Stall Warning and/or AOA |
Just to follow up on my previous post. Overall, my recommendation is:
If you are on the fence about getting AOA, get it. But, keep Van's stall
warning system as well.
Jim
40134
In a message dated 12/19/2006 5:31:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
JSMcGrew@aol.com writes:
I built in both AOA and the standard stall warning. The stall warning works
very well once the tab is adjusted correctly. Even more importantly my RV-10
really lets me know when it is going to stall. After training with Mike
Seager and practice during flight testing I would have to be extremely distracted
to miss the buffet and feel of the airplane before it stalls (actual mileage
may vary).
Maybe I failed to calibrate the AOA system correctly the first, second or
third times, but I can't get it to provide useful information. Additionally,
the "AOA PUSH!" voice is extremely distracting during slow flight, take off and
flare to land. (The calibration was bad on my first flight and I had to
listen to that voice continuously during my first flight - as if I didn't have
enough to deal with). I loved AOA in the T-38 and F-15. In theory, it is a very
nice back up system to have on board. I haven't given up yet, but I am
struggling to get it to provide useful information in the RV-10.
Jim
40134
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Re: Skin Edge Deburring |
Yes, but always wear a leather glove. If you slip off the edge, the result
is a nice long cut.=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Jeff Carpe
nter <jeff@westcottpress.com>=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday
, December 19, 2006 11:30:22 AM=0ASubject: RV10-List: Skin Edge Deburring
s.com>=0A=0AI see some discussion today about edge deburring, and thought I
'd =0Ashare a method I learned from another 10 builder (Nick Gautier) a
=0Acouple of miles from me. This technique has cut my edge deburring =0At
ime from 15-20 minutes per large skin down to 2-3 minutes and it is =0Aun
believably simple:=0A=0ATake a curved tooth file (with the handle removed)
and run it =0Alengthwise flat to the edge of the skin. On the return tri
p, run the =0Afile lengthwise at a 45 degree angle to the top side of the
edge and =0Amake a final pass with the file lengthwise at a 45 degree angl
e to =0Athe bottom side of the edge.=0A=0AThe result is an edge that is fa
r smoother than anything I've been =0Aable to accomplish with my double ed
ge deburring tool... or any other =0Amethod I've fumbled around with.=0A
=========
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: door latched security system |
That was my original reluctance to install the lights; One more complication
that supposedly provides peace of mind can itself fail. I agree that
additional handles are going to installled in the rear. Extra pins may cause
problems in an emergency exit.
One other consideration: I will be looking for a way to ensure that an
article of clothing or errant power cord can not catch the handle and
unlatch the pins in flight.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: door latched security system
>
> Actually, it's pretty easy to see if you have a door not shut properly.
> The hard part is just remembering to check. You can also just
> reach around behind the door and feel for the pin protruding into
> the cabin in the back. From a simplicity and security standpoint,
> I think Van's latch pins are great. Having some fancier latches
> could possibly just cause additional problems. The real help would
> just be having a rear pull so you could pull evenly on the door.
> Nothing too complex about the problem, or the check.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> Vern W. Smith wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, I think I understand the problem more clearly. Another fix maybe
>> to build the door or hang the hinges with a preload so the back of the
>> door always comes in contact with frame opening before the front of the
>> door contacts the frame. Or maybe install a fisheye mirror somewhere to
>> visual check the doors. Anyway, I look forward to this new challenge.
>> Till then it's time to pound the rivets:)
>>
>> Vern (#324 fuselage)
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:59 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: door latched security system
>>
>>
>> I don't think the 'flimsyness' of the doors is related to their stucture
>>
>> per se, (There is some reinforcement vis a glass matt that 'locks' the
>> doors internally) but rather to the manner in which they are attached to
>>
>> the Cabin Cover. they are attached with 2 hinges that are aprox 12-14"
>> apart at the top of the door. Physics and legerage take over when you
>> open the door and the long moment between the wide bottom of the door
>> where the latches are located and the relatively narrow hinge attachment
>>
>> makes for an easily twistable situation. I believe that most of the
>> 'twist' comes from the immediate area that surrounds the hinges in at the
>> top of the door. You could try reinforcing that area, but the inherant
>> nature and flex of fiberglass is still going to be an issue IMHO. The
>> windows are also smack dab in the middle of this area.
>>
>> Deems Davis # 406
>> Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
>> http://deemsrv10.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> Vern W. Smith wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> If the doors are a bit flimsy, would it work to run some foam and fiber
>>> glass "spars" inside to frame work between the inside and outside
>>> shells?
>>> Just looking at the drawing if an X shaped frame work was added above
>>> and below the window it seems like it would help. Downside is it would
>>> add some weight to the doors.
>>>
>>> Vern (#324 fuselage)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 39
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One more picture of the shim itself
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:21 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Smokin Rivets
Noel, thanks for the informative post. Can you enlighten me about point
number 3f, below? I'm not getting the mental image of what you're
saying.
Thanks,
John Jessen
do not archive
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel & Yoshie
Simmons
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 11:35 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Smokin Rivets
The anatomy of the smokin=92 rivet.
What is smoke? The black residue that streams down wind of a rivet is
Aluminum oxide, the second hardest substance on earth with the first
being
diamonds. Aluminum oxide is a by product of corrosion that naturally
occurs. Aluminums is considered to be self lubricating, meaning it will
continue to sluff, and the aluminum oxide being harder than the base
metal
will exponentially carve more aluminum oxide out of the base metal,
A rivet that has been properly set will eventually smoke given a
structure
subjected to vibration that has been under engineered, meaning not
enough
rivets per inch. I have seen, and repaired these structures (again and
again), mostly engine nacelles on jets, fortunately or unfortunately how
every you want to look at the subject, Van=92s aircraft does not have
any
under engineered structures that would qualify for the under engineered
place to look for smoking rivets. Yes all rivet joints move to one
degree
or another so a rivet can be set in such a way that it will smoke. In
conclusion smoking rivets on RV is a builder flaw.
How to set rivets that will smoke.
First let us look at the parts that Van=92s sends us. The Punching
process is
extremely actuate, Fin Power CNC punch press have a tolerance of .004 in
8
linear feet. Van=92s has CAD people that really know their system and
can
tell the punch press exactly where to put holes. Given the .004
tolerance
there are some places on the aircraft that have the same hole in 4
sheets of
aluminum that each have this tolerance so you will see holes that are a
little hard to put a reamer through, but is still very accurate.
The punching action causes aluminum to =93flow=94. That is the cause of
the
volcano on the exit side of the sheet. This flow is not like the burr
created from using a drill bit. You must remove the volcano completely
with
out countersinking the base metal.
Below is how to cause voids and entrap, well let=92s call it =91Stuff=92
for lack
of better words, which promote the corrosive environment to create
copious
amounts of SMOKE.
1. Use a drill bit instead of a reamer.
a. Just for giggles take a =BC=94 drill bit and begin drilling a
hole in a
piece of .032 sheet metal. You will see that the hole that begins to
develop is triangular, and as the drill bit finally passes the hole is
not
truly round. This is obviously a start of voids in the rivet joint.
b. USE a Reamer they turn triangular holes into properly sized
round
ones. Reamers should be used everywhere on the van=92s pre-punched
holes
2. Don=92t deburr/ deburr to deeply
a. The punching process causes a volcano like structure on the
punch
exit. Not only will this cause a void but will chip the rim of the
volcano
into the joint acting like grist in a roller mill.
b. The head and or shop head will sit up on the volcano and will
not
properly clamp the rivet joint.
c. Deburring to deeply is a very, very common mistake RV
builder=92s
make due to the punching process.
d. Look at some of the heavier aluminum that has been punched with
1/8=94
holes. You will see one side that is pressed in and the other side will
be
coned out like a volcano. If you take a 100 degree countersink or some
of
the other rotary deburring tools and cut this volcano off to the point
that
there is no aluminum that protrudes above the base metal you will have a
shallow countersink. This shallow countersink WILL NOT be completely
filled
by the expansion of a rivet. This is the stating point of corrosion
e. We use sand paper to deburr. The sand paper will remove the
volcano with out causing a shallow countersink. Two notes WE PRIME, WE
don=92t build polished aircraft.
3. Dimpling / countersinking the sub structure with the same dimple
as
the skin.
a. Easy test, take two small pieces of scrap aluminum and drill
#30
holes, Deburr.
b. Dimple each with your #30 dimple dies.
c. Mate the two pieces and you will see that they don=92t fit very
well.
This cause lots of voids and is the primary thing that RV builders do to
cause smoke.
d. Take those same two pieces of aluminum and dimple them together
using your #30 dimple dies.
i. Better fit isn=92t it! They don=92t rock like a bobble head
doll
e. Point here is that most people don=92t dimple the substructures
(ribs) to =93receive=94 the overlaying dimple.
f. We take a small =BD=94X 1/2=94 scrap and attach it to the male
dimple
die to dimple all the sub structure. This eliminates the rocking caused
by
having two improperly formed dimples pinched together by a rivet.
g. I have seen people dimpling with the plastic sill in place, bad
idea.
h. I have seen people afraid of over dimpling so they hit the
dimplier
once instead of twice (real hard). Dimpling is a forming process that
must
be complete; a half dimple will cause the skin to warp, bad idea.
Sorry if this is a little anal, I have spent many years trying to get
the
best looking rivets I can. I have piles of scrap that I drill holes in
and
look at with a magnifying glass. Rivet and inspect, change the technique
a
little here and there then drill and rivet inspect until ,In my opinion
we
do some of the finest riveting on RV=92s. Every airplane we do get=92s
a little
better and a little faster.
Noel Simmons
Blue Sky Aviation, Inc.
www.blueskyaviation.net <http://www.blueskyaviation.net/>
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
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Message 40
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| Subject: | Door latch and Weld-On for windows |
Thinking about this door latch issue and WHY the original design is no
t sufficient for some is interesting. I would be curious to see some of
the planes that are having an issue as to whether #1 : The door was f
it and mounted well. #2 : Is the interior cloth/leather on the door i
mpacting how it closes PRIOR to finishing it? It seems a lot of the t
imes our modifications to make the plane nicer/attractive changes how th
e plane was designed to work. We wonder after we get all done why it w
eighs 90 lbs. more than other RV10's. Just a thought.
Also, I called Vans today to order some K1100-8 nutplates (that they do
not send enough of with the kit and 4 more dimpled END LUG nut plates w
hich they send only 2 of), and asked about my out dated Weld-On. The we
bsite and catalog says it has a shelf life of 12 months. I was told NO.
.......it is only a 6 month shelf life! Could this be the cause of some
of the CRACKING around the windows we are seeing on the RV10? Sure wou
ld be nice if Van told people to NOT order the Weld-on until they are re
ady to use it! I know when we got ours it was already on the shelf for
3 months. Hopes this saves others some trouble.
Anybody wants 5 bottles of Weld-On ...........CHEAP? :)
Venting,
Dean 40449
________________________________________________________________________
<html><P> Thinking about this door latch issue and WHY the origina
l design is not sufficient for some is interesting. I would be cur
ious to see some of the planes that are having an issue as to whether&nb
sp; #1 : The door was fit and mounted well. #2 :
Is the interior cloth/leather on the door impacting how it closes PRIOR
to finishing it? It seems a lot of the times our modi
fications to make the plane nicer/attractive changes how the plane was d
esigned to work. We wonder after we get all done why it weig
hs 90 lbs. more than other RV10's. Just a thought.</P>
<P>Also, I called Vans today to order some K1100-8 nutplates (that
they do not send enough of with the kit and 4 more dimpled END LUG nut
plates which they send only 2 of), and asked about my out dated Weld-On.
The website and catalog says it has a shelf life of 12 months.&nb
sp; I was told NO........it is only a 6 month shelf life! Could th
is be the cause of some of the CRACKING around the windows we are seeing
on the RV10? Sure would be nice if Van told people to NOT order t
he Weld-on until they are ready to use it! I know when we got ours
it was already on the shelf for 3 months. Hopes this saves others
some trouble.</P>
<P>Anybody wants 5 bottles of Weld-On ...........CHEAP? :) </
P>
<P>Venting, </P>
<P>Dean 40449</P>
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> to sign up today!<br></font>
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Message 41
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| Subject: | Door latch and Weld-On for windows |
It is amazing that these chemicals have such a short self life. Why can
McDonalds make hamburger buns last five months on the tray before they get
mold or make meet which can go through ones digestive tract and come out the
other end still looking like the meat patty when it went in? And these
chemicals aren't even made for consumption. Go figure!
I feel your pain. I've got a third right elevator trim tab bonded with an
unproven flexible epoxy. My proseal was out of date.
Leaves one with a dought and it keeps the economy going by forcing people to
spend $$$$$$ to buy only that which the manual says to use.
Yesterdays trailing edge bonding issue comes to mind.
John G
>From: "ddddsp1@juno.com" <ddddsp1@juno.com>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: Door latch and Weld-On for windows
>Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 02:02:52 GMT
>
> Thinking about this door latch issue and WHY the original design is not
>sufficient for some is interesting. I would be curious to see some of the
>planes that are having an issue as to whether #1 : The door was fit and
>mounted well. #2 : Is the interior cloth/leather on the door impacting
>how it closes PRIOR to finishing it? It seems a lot of the times our
>modifications to make the plane nicer/attractive changes how the plane was
>designed to work. We wonder after we get all done why it weighs 90 lbs.
>more than other RV10's. Just a thought.
>Also, I called Vans today to order some K1100-8 nutplates (that they do
>not send enough of with the kit and 4 more dimpled END LUG nut plates which
>they send only 2 of), and asked about my out dated Weld-On. The website
>and catalog says it has a shelf life of 12 months. I was told NO........it
>is only a 6 month shelf life! Could this be the cause of some of the
>CRACKING around the windows we are seeing on the RV10? Sure would be nice
>if Van told people to NOT order the Weld-on until they are ready to use it!
> I know when we got ours it was already on the shelf for 3 months. Hopes
>this saves others some trouble.
>Anybody wants 5 bottles of Weld-On ...........CHEAP? :)
>Venting,
>Dean 40449
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
Message 42
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| Subject: | Door latch and Weld-On for windows |
Keep your WeldOn in the freezer until you are ready to use it. It will
greatly increase the shelf life.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ddddsp1@juno.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 8:03 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Door latch and Weld-On for windows
Thinking about this door latch issue and WHY the original design is
not sufficient for some is interesting. I would be curious to see some
of the planes that are having an issue as to whether #1 : The door was
fit and mounted well. #2 : Is the interior cloth/leather on the door
impacting how it closes PRIOR to finishing it? It seems a lot of the
times our modifications to make the plane nicer/attractive changes how
the plane was designed to work. We wonder after we get all done why it
weighs 90 lbs. more than other RV10's. Just a thought.
Also, I called Vans today to order some K1100-8 nutplates (that they do
not send enough of with the kit and 4 more dimpled END LUG nut plates
which they send only 2 of), and asked about my out dated Weld-On. The
website and catalog says it has a shelf life of 12 months. I was told
NO........it is only a 6 month shelf life! Could this be the cause of
some of the CRACKING around the windows we are seeing on the RV10? Sure
would be nice if Van told people to NOT order the Weld-on until they are
ready to use it! I know when we got ours it was already on the shelf
for 3 months. Hopes this saves others some trouble.
Anybody wants 5 bottles of Weld-On ...........CHEAP? :)
Venting,
Dean 40449
________________________________________________________________________
Message 43
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| Subject: | Lower Motor Mount Tube Clearance |
Vicki,
Mine was a little over 1/8" so I checked with Van's and they said it
wouldn't be a problem. To date with 119 hours it hasn't been an issue.
However you could always check with Vans again to see if they have any newer
thoughts.
Marcus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vicki Jones
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 9:24 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Lower Motor Mount Tube Clearance
The clearance between the oil sump on my Mattituck TMXIO-540 D4A5 and the
lower mount
tube is 1/8". I have heard that Van's recommends a minimum of 3/16" but
prefers 1/2".
Has anyone had a 1/8" clearance but not had the modification completed by
Vans? If so, have you had any problems?
Thanks,
Vicki
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