Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:21 AM - Re: Oxygen exterior fill port (Richard Reynolds)
2. 04:35 AM - Re: Oxygen exterior fill port (David Maib)
3. 07:15 AM - Re: Burn test on Plenum rated conduit (John Gonzalez)
4. 07:32 AM - Re: Oxygen exterior fill port (John Gonzalez)
5. 07:48 AM - Re: Oxygen exterior fill port (Tim Olson)
6. 08:00 AM - Re: Baggage door (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
7. 08:43 AM - Re: D2 Update (Stein Bruch)
8. 09:22 AM - Re: Baggage door (Robert Woods)
9. 10:12 AM - Re: D2 Update (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com)
10. 10:18 AM - Re: Oxygen exterior fill port (John W. Cox)
11. 11:11 AM - Re: Oxygen exterior fill port (linn Walters)
12. 11:28 AM - Re: D2 Update (Kevin Belue)
13. 12:11 PM - cleco size (noel@blueskyaviation.net)
14. 12:28 PM - Re: D2 Update (Neil Colliver)
15. 12:32 PM - Re: short field performance (NYTerminat)
16. 01:05 PM - Re: D2 Update (David McNeill)
17. 01:08 PM - Re: Oxygen exterior fill port (Kelly McMullen)
18. 01:11 PM - Re: D2 Update (David McNeill)
19. 03:40 PM - Re: Oxygen exterior fill port (John Gonzalez)
20. 04:13 PM - Re: Rudder wiring (Rick Gray)
21. 04:33 PM - Re: Baggage door (Rick)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Oxygen exterior fill port |
A removable Q2 bottle provides a lot more options (cheaper) for
refilling .
On my RV-6A, I chose a Mountain High E&S carbon fiber 48 cu-ft O2
bottle (CFFC-048). Total weight filled with 2 stations was 10 lbs. It
lasts a very long time, which is good for x/c out west because you do
not have to refill at every stop. If you do not want the weight for
local flying, just remove the O2 bottle.
We plan to install the same system on the RV-10 with the O2 bottle
just behind the rear left pax seat where it is accessible for
removable and refilling.
Richard Reynolds
On Dec 24, 2006, at 1:10 AM, L Aune wrote:
>
> I was talking to a local FBO guy who said that all the aircraft in
> their fleet were having to remove the O2 bottle for refill rather
> than having O2 fill-up carts come out to the aircraft. Is the
> external O2 filler port being outlawed or is this just a local
> problem? Has anyone heard bout this problem? Do not archive.
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Oxygen exterior fill port |
Is your bottle plumbed into an O2 delivery system in the airplane or
do you just have long hoses from the bottle? If connected to a
plumbed in system, I would love to have some details and photos if
available.
David Maib
#40559
tailcone
On Dec 24, 2006, at 6:20 AM, Richard Reynolds wrote:
A removable Q2 bottle provides a lot more options (cheaper) for
refilling .
On my RV-6A, I chose a Mountain High E&S carbon fiber 48 cu-ft O2
bottle (CFFC-048). Total weight filled with 2 stations was 10 lbs. It
lasts a very long time, which is good for x/c out west because you do
not have to refill at every stop. If you do not want the weight for
local flying, just remove the O2 bottle.
We plan to install the same system on the RV-10 with the O2 bottle
just behind the rear left pax seat where it is accessible for
removable and refilling.
Richard Reynolds
On Dec 24, 2006, at 1:10 AM, L Aune wrote:
>
> I was talking to a local FBO guy who said that all the aircraft in
> their fleet were having to remove the O2 bottle for refill rather
> than having O2 fill-up carts come out to the aircraft. Is the
> external O2 filler port being outlawed or is this just a local
> problem? Has anyone heard bout this problem? Do not archive.
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Burn test on Plenum rated conduit |
It was me who asked you to do it.
Sorry I missed this post a couple of days ago, but better late then never.
My conduit from Van's arrived and I worked with it yesterday. They claim it
has no PolyVinylChlorite it it so it shouldn't be toxic. I'll smoke(Burn)
some today and tell you all what happens.
Thanks Tim for the effort.
Happy Holidays to all you other building nuts
Thinking about all the toy planes I got when I was a child. How come i
don't get them as gifts anymore????
JOhn G.
Do NOt Archive
>From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV10-List: Burn test on Plenum rated conduit
>Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 06:22:26 -0600
>
>
>A couple weeks ago someone asked if someone would go and burn
>test that orange interduct plenum rated conduit that I used,
>to see what it did. It's commonly used as fiberoptic conduit
>in the networking and telcom world, so most of you probably
>have a friend who has some they could cut off for you.
>
>I took a piece and stuck it in front of my glowing red hot
>kerosene torpedo heater, holding it with a needle nose
>pliers. Those things get darn hot. It softened and sagged,
>and started to melt and flow, and I held it right next to
>the glowing dome. In a short time it started to blacken,
>but not charcoal, but it never did actually support a
>flame, even though it looked burned. It was very
>interesting, as I expected to at least get it burning
>kind of like a milk jug. (yeah, I've been known to
>throw things in the fire while camping to see what they
>do. )
>
>So I came away impressed, and am now even more happy with
>the stuff than in the past. I also did not detect any
>fumes that smelled like the normal toxic plastic smell.
>So this stuff may be perfect for what we're doing.
>
>--
>Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Oxygen exterior fill port |
Richard,
Out of curiosity, what are the estimated dimensions of that 48cuft bottle.
Not using your numbers for anything but thought. I was planning on putting
my bottle in the baggage area between the two seats, right on top of the
tunnel. Seems like a lot of areas to tie it down to. Also easier for the air
lines to go between the seats to all the occupants. Not planning on
permanent plumming in my undercomplex machine.
>From: Richard Reynolds <rvreynolds@macs.net>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oxygen exterior fill port
>Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 07:20:07 -0500
>
>
>A removable Q2 bottle provides a lot more options (cheaper) for refilling
>.
>
>On my RV-6A, I chose a Mountain High E&S carbon fiber 48 cu-ft O2 bottle
>(CFFC-048). Total weight filled with 2 stations was 10 lbs. It lasts a
>very long time, which is good for x/c out west because you do not have to
>refill at every stop. If you do not want the weight for local flying, just
>remove the O2 bottle.
>
>We plan to install the same system on the RV-10 with the O2 bottle just
>behind the rear left pax seat where it is accessible for removable and
>refilling.
>
>Richard Reynolds
>
>On Dec 24, 2006, at 1:10 AM, L Aune wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I was talking to a local FBO guy who said that all the aircraft in their
>>fleet were having to remove the O2 bottle for refill rather than having
>>O2 fill-up carts come out to the aircraft. Is the external O2 filler
>>port being outlawed or is this just a local problem? Has anyone heard
>>bout this problem? Do not archive.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Oxygen exterior fill port |
John,
This recent O2 thread just got me contemplating the same location,
but then I realized this: Every time I've packed up the plane for
a cross-country flight with suitcases, We've had to slide the suitcases
into the baggage area, and the door doesn't have a lot of extra
height, nor the baggage compartment a lot of extra width....so
putting an O2 bottle right in the middle would drastically change
my useability of the baggage area.
Right now I have it in a padded case between the rear seats, which
works well. But, I think ideally it would be in the rear behind
the baggage wall. Unfortunately, doing that makes it only fillable
with a moveable fill station or a really long whip. So I'm kind of
torn on the ultimate solution right now. If you go behind the baggage
wall, I'd be inclined to say to make sure you have a huge bottle,
because you may have a much harder time getting it filled during
a trip. Some places though, may have a portable fill station.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Gonzalez wrote:
>
>
> Richard,
>
> Out of curiosity, what are the estimated dimensions of that 48cuft
> bottle. Not using your numbers for anything but thought. I was
> planning on putting my bottle in the baggage area between the two seats,
> right on top of the tunnel. Seems like a lot of areas to tie it down to.
> Also easier for the air lines to go between the seats to all the
> occupants. Not planning on permanent plumming in my undercomplex machine.
>
>> From: Richard Reynolds <rvreynolds@macs.net>
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oxygen exterior fill port
>> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 07:20:07 -0500
>>
>>
>> A removable Q2 bottle provides a lot more options (cheaper) for
>> refilling .
>>
>> On my RV-6A, I chose a Mountain High E&S carbon fiber 48 cu-ft O2
>> bottle (CFFC-048). Total weight filled with 2 stations was 10 lbs. It
>> lasts a very long time, which is good for x/c out west because you do
>> not have to refill at every stop. If you do not want the weight for
>> local flying, just remove the O2 bottle.
>>
>> We plan to install the same system on the RV-10 with the O2 bottle
>> just behind the rear left pax seat where it is accessible for
>> removable and refilling.
>>
>> Richard Reynolds
>>
>> On Dec 24, 2006, at 1:10 AM, L Aune wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I was talking to a local FBO guy who said that all the aircraft in
>>> their fleet were having to remove the O2 bottle for refill rather
>>> than having O2 fill-up carts come out to the aircraft. Is the
>>> external O2 filler port being outlawed or is this just a local
>>> problem? Has anyone heard bout this problem? Do not archive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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I too agree that Barrett's is the way to go for a Lycoming. I spent
allot of time with them on the phone trying to make the decision, and
they were really good at helping me understand the different models and
options. If I had gone with a Lycoming, I would have chosen them to
build mine.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:38 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Baggage door
Chrome valve covers and nice paint :)
lol...82????? it's not even 82 in Vegas right now!!!
Barrett's is my engine builder, and that means nothing against anyone
else...they spent the time talking to me at OSH, explained everything,
have a great reputation and Rhonda and the gang monitor the list. Monty
Barrett's reputation and knowledge was enough for me along with all the
good things all their customers had to say..and I did check..
Ric kS.
40185
Message 7
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Guys/Gals,
Since I'm out of town for the holidays (like many of you) I can't take the
time to call each one of you individually so I'm going to make a post here.
MANY of you guys purchased your Chelton systems through my business and
henceforth we'll all be in this together. I'm embarrassed, upset and scared
as to what is ultimately going to happen with this whole debacle. I do know
it's pretty crappy that this was dropped on all of us 24hrs before the
holidays. I'm not in the office and most of you aren't at home so we can't
even communicate about it.
Right now we just don't know all of the facts and what is going to happen so
it's far to early to speculate as to the outcome. What I do know is that
all of the dealers aren't sitting on your money. Per D2A, we sent your
payments to them for systems. Some of you have complete systems, some of
you have partial systems and a few have nothing. All of you can be
guaranteed that us dealers are in contact with each other already, and we're
all doing as much as we can to figure out this mess and find some sort of
solution. This can't happen until after the holidays so don't expect much of
an update before the new year. As dealers we're in a really horrible
position....and if we had your money the solutions would be easy...we'd just
give your money back or buy something else. But, the huge problem is that
we don't have your money - and frankly not a single one of us dealers could
survive or financially afford to eat this. Remember, we're not talking
about a couple people, we're talking about many dozens of you. So, the end
result is that we all have to just wait a few days and see what gets sorted
out. We're all devastated, sick, scared and stressed as to what the
ultimate outcome is. We all had some sort of "gut feeling" that things at
D2A were tough, but we had literally NO idea it was this bad. Heck, it was
just Friday that I received a shipment of SV-10 harnesses for a variety of
customers from them.
The only thing I can hope is that cooler heads prevail and everyone can
still end up with a system. Personally I still think the actual units are
good units, but this whole mess is leaving a really bad taste in my mouth.
Suffice to say that as an outcome of this, as a business we WILL NOT ever
sell another product to customers where the distributor or mfgr requires
money up front, even 50% (like another EFIS mfgr). I'm able to run my
business without using customers money up front, and I expect the same from
mfgrs. If they can't do it, then something is wrong. I can't stand sitting
on customers money when there is no product, hence the reason we just can't
easily "pay everyone back".
In closing, I'd urge everyone to try and be patient for a few days while all
of us dealers sort out this mess and figure out our options both legally and
professionally for us and out customers. Rest assured we've all had some
initial legal counsel on this and there is no doubt going to be more. As
the largest seller of Chelton products to the RV market, I can guarantee you
I'll sleep less than anyone during the next few days/weeks. We're all
working off of very little information, and what we do have is sketchy at
best. Getting good, accurate & detailed information in the next week is
going to be impossible. We're going to do our best to contact each one of
you individually to review your specific situation, but at the moment there
isn't going to be any solid answers because we just don't know where this is
going to end up. Like I said, hopefully some intelligent and cool heads at
Chelton will prevail. Like Tim, I'm deeply saddened by this mess because I
was one the loudest proponents of the Chelton EFIS line and personally have
the good fortune to call many of you my friends. Being treated like this
isn't fair, good, or reasonable and not the way to do business. I sincerely
apologize for what I can right now.....but we all need to sit tight for a
few days and see what comes out of this. It just makes me sick to see this
sort of thing happen over and over again in aviation. What is it with
people who run these businesses that they just think it's ok to
take/spend/loose people's hard earned money and then walk away? Dealing
with issues like this makes my blood boil. I can't fathom treating people
like that, and I can't imagine why anyone would let their business get to
that point without even asking for help, warning the customers/dealers,
etc......these sort of things don't happen overnight and to pretend they do
is dubious at best and unfortuneately I'm sure this won't be the last time
we see it.
Best regards and try to have a happy holiday,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 9:41 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: FW: [LML] D2 Update
Here is a valued post from someone I respect. For a few RV-10 builders,
this may cause some trepidation. As many of you know, I have been a strong
supporter of Chelton products. This is going to be a better year in 2007.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Don't shoot the messenger.
John Cox
the Turbanator #40600
Do not archive as this information will be worthless shortly and has no
archival value!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of
Brent Regan
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 2:12 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] D2 Update
I have reviewed the situation with Kirk (D2) and Gordon (CFS). Here is
what I have learned.
It is true that D2 has closed its doors. CFS has picked up new orders with
Lancair, Epic and D2's other dealers.
CFS has an agreement with Pinpoint Inertial to distribute their ADAHRS /
GADAHRS.
CFS is NOT responsible for commitments made by any of their dealers. CFS's
official information release is copied below.
CFS is committed to supporting their products.
So what happened? In my opinion the tipping point came with the X-bow 42X
problem. D2 could have told their customers that the 425 problems were a
X-bow warranty issue but instead they took the high road and offered to
replace the 425s with Pinpoints. One could imagine that this put a
tremendous strain on cash flow. Kirk thought it was a risk worth taking but
did not foresee two additional events. One was X-bow getting into the EFIS
market (Advanced). This begs the question: If X-bow can make an ADAHRS for
their own EFIS, why didn't they fix the 42Xs???
Second was Garmin's entry into the experimental market. This one is a real
mystery. As Hamid pointed out to me, why would Garmin's least profitable
division (avionics) enter the least profitable sector of that market
(experimental)? I am unaware of any other certified aviation company that
has made this retrograde market expansion. It is like being married to
Cindy Crawford and then having an affair with Janet Reno. If I were a Garmin
experimental customer I would be nervous that Garmin will wake up and gnaw
their arm off to get out of the market as fast as possible. Remember the
Starship?
In the end it was D2's commitment to it's customers that was their
undoing. D2's failure is a loss for everyone but their competitors.
Ironically, D2's failure is also bad news for X-bow as all the customers
that are holding 425's will be looking to X-bow to make them well.
The good news is that it seems all the products that were distributed by
D2 will still be available to builders through other distributors.
I would also point out that the above is hearsay or the opinion of a
confessed idiot and should not be taken seriously.
The authorized information is copied below.
Wishing you and yours the Merriest Christmas possible and a safe New Year
with blue skies and cheap fuel.
Regards
Brent Regan
CHELTON FLIGHT SYSTEMS
AUTHORIZED INFORMATION RELEASE REGARDING
Direct 2 Avionics
<>
December 22, 2006
NOTE: THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS THE ONLY EXPLANATION THAT CHELTON HAS
AUTHORIZED RELATING TO DIRECT 2 AVIONICS SITUATION BY ANY EMPLOYEE OF
CHELTON. THIS EXPLANATION IS THE ONLY EXPLANATION YOU ARE AUTHORIZED TO
PROVIDE ABOUT DIRECT 2 AVIONICS, ITS OWNERS OR EMPLOYEES, AND BUSINESS
RELATIONSHIP WITH CHELTON. ANY OTHER STATEMENT, SPECULATION, GOSSIP OR
RUMOR REGARDING DIRECT 2 AVONICS WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
<>
STATEMENT:
To Whom It May Concern:
By now you have probably heard that DIRECT 2 AVIONICS ("D2A")
had to close its business. Like you, we at Chelton Flight Systems were
disappointed and concerned that D2A felt it had to take this action.
D2A was an authorized, independently-owned distributor for Chelton.
Chelton has no ownership or other relationship with D2A. Chelton has
received various inquiries from persons who have alleged that they were told
by D2A that parts for which they claimed to have paid D2A were "back
ordered." Chelton currently has no purchase orders from D2A and there are
no "back orders" to be filled. Chelton has also suspended taking any
further purchase orders from D2A and has suspended D2A's status as an
authorized distributor.
Chelton regrets any inconvenience or financial loss the situation with D2A
may have caused you.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Baggage door |
Hey Rick S.,
Last weekend Bob K. was kind enough to show me the ropes on building
by helping me with my toolbox kit from Vans. Many thanks Bob. He
mentioned you several times while we were bangin away. I would love to
see your -10 and help the both of you with anything I can. Reach me at
429-7291 anytime. And there is no time like the present:)
Robb
N192RL.....reserved
Message 9
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Stein, I appreciate your EMAIL and will wait til you have more information
for us. Really screws up the holiday season for lots of folks.
Regards,
Doug
Message 10
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| Subject: | Oxygen exterior fill port |
It must be local. The risk of removal can be greater than the refill at
the hands of an experienced O2 refiller.
On the other hand. Putting High Pressure into a low pressure (non
hydrostatically tested) tank can have unforeseen consequences.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of L Aune
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:10 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Oxygen exterior fill port
I was talking to a local FBO guy who said that all the aircraft in
their fleet were having to remove the O2 bottle for refill rather
than having O2 fill-up carts come out to the aircraft. Is the
external O2 filler port being outlawed or is this just a local
problem? Has anyone heard bout this problem? Do not archive.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Oxygen exterior fill port |
I'm not positive, but I believe the reason they don't fill high bottles
in planes (or other vehicles!)is:
The possibility of explosion from overpressure.
The possibility of extra risk from leaking connections/ignition sources.
The additional risk to their insurance carriers.
I've never seen a water tank in the FBO (may have missed it!) but SCUBA
bottles are required to be filled in a water tank to try and lessen the
explosion damage and cool the bottles while they're being filled.
Linn
L Aune wrote:
>
> I was talking to a local FBO guy who said that all the aircraft in
> their fleet were having to remove the O2 bottle for refill rather
> than having O2 fill-up carts come out to the aircraft. Is the
> external O2 filler port being outlawed or is this just a local
> problem? Has anyone heard bout this problem? Do not archive.
>
>
Message 12
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Stein,
It's good to read your email. I was nervous about handing over $26k to
D2A without a product shipping - I certainly didn't want to. I studied
all of the systems available at the time (1.5 years ago) and determined
that Chelton was what I wanted. So I reluctantly paid and waited - I had
no other choice if I as an individual wanted their product. If everyone,
especially the dealers, say no to this "pay now and receive the product
at some later date" scheme, it would provide much better protection to
consumers as well as insuring that companies have the backing to be a
successful company and not a business that is hanging on a thread, using
customer's money to keep them in business day-to-day. I believe there
are a lot of customers that have bought Chelton systems and are still
waiting on components. I hope everyone will stick together when
considering future products and only buy from companies that require
money when the product ships.
Good luck Stein, and all of us involved in this.
Kevin Belue
RV6A flying
RV10 finish
----- Original Message -----
From: Stein Bruch
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 10:44 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: D2 Update
Guys/Gals,
Since I'm out of town for the holidays (like many of you) I can't take
the time to call each one of you individually so I'm going to make a
post here. MANY of you guys purchased your Chelton systems through my
business and henceforth we'll all be in this together. I'm embarrassed,
upset and scared as to what is ultimately going to happen with this
whole debacle. I do know it's pretty crappy that this was dropped on
all of us 24hrs before the holidays. I'm not in the office and most of
you aren't at home so we can't even communicate about it.
Right now we just don't know all of the facts and what is going to
happen so it's far to early to speculate as to the outcome. What I do
know is that all of the dealers aren't sitting on your money. Per D2A,
we sent your payments to them for systems. Some of you have complete
systems, some of you have partial systems and a few have nothing. All
of you can be guaranteed that us dealers are in contact with each other
already, and we're all doing as much as we can to figure out this mess
and find some sort of solution. This can't happen until after the
holidays so don't expect much of an update before the new year. As
dealers we're in a really horrible position....and if we had your money
the solutions would be easy...we'd just give your money back or buy
something else. But, the huge problem is that we don't have your money
- and frankly not a single one of us dealers could survive or
financially afford to eat this. Remember, we're not talking about a
couple people, we're talking about many dozens of you. So, the end
result is that we all have to just wait a few days and see what gets
sorted out. We're all devastated, sick, scared and stressed as to what
the ultimate outcome is. We all had some sort of "gut feeling" that
things at D2A were tough, but we had literally NO idea it was this bad.
Heck, it was just Friday that I received a shipment of SV-10 harnesses
for a variety of customers from them.
The only thing I can hope is that cooler heads prevail and everyone
can still end up with a system. Personally I still think the actual
units are good units, but this whole mess is leaving a really bad taste
in my mouth. Suffice to say that as an outcome of this, as a business
we WILL NOT ever sell another product to customers where the distributor
or mfgr requires money up front, even 50% (like another EFIS mfgr). I'm
able to run my business without using customers money up front, and I
expect the same from mfgrs. If they can't do it, then something is
wrong. I can't stand sitting on customers money when there is no
product, hence the reason we just can't easily "pay everyone back".
In closing, I'd urge everyone to try and be patient for a few days
while all of us dealers sort out this mess and figure out our options
both legally and professionally for us and out customers. Rest assured
we've all had some initial legal counsel on this and there is no doubt
going to be more. As the largest seller of Chelton products to the RV
market, I can guarantee you I'll sleep less than anyone during the next
few days/weeks. We're all working off of very little information, and
what we do have is sketchy at best. Getting good, accurate & detailed
information in the next week is going to be impossible. We're going to
do our best to contact each one of you individually to review your
specific situation, but at the moment there isn't going to be any solid
answers because we just don't know where this is going to end up. Like
I said, hopefully some intelligent and cool heads at Chelton will
prevail. Like Tim, I'm deeply saddened by this mess because I was one
the loudest proponents of the Chelton EFIS line and personally have the
good fortune to call many of you my friends. Being treated like this
isn't fair, good, or reasonable and not the way to do business. I
sincerely apologize for what I can right now.....but we all need to sit
tight for a few days and see what comes out of this. It just makes me
sick to see this sort of thing happen over and over again in aviation.
What is it with people who run these businesses that they just think
it's ok to take/spend/loose people's hard earned money and then walk
away? Dealing with issues like this makes my blood boil. I can't
fathom treating people like that, and I can't imagine why anyone would
let their business get to that point without even asking for help,
warning the customers/dealers, etc......these sort of things don't
happen overnight and to pretend they do is dubious at best and
unfortuneately I'm sure this won't be the last time we see it.
Best regards and try to have a happy holiday,
Stein.
Message 13
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anyone on line right now that can give me the barel dimentions of a celeco
and the largerest damiter pice that kees into the coleco plyers.
Thank you noel
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .
Message 14
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Hi Stein
Yeup, the timing is horrible. At least I'm only wondering about one
system. I'm not surprised you feel sick. it could be worse though, if
someone just released a cross between Chelton & Google earth that was
Pinpoint & software on a Mac! I guess that will eventually come, but in
the intervening 10 years, I'll stick with our Chelton order, and hope
you guys get it sorted by the time we need it.
I'll be patient & wait (do I have any choice?) Anyhow, it's Christmas /
Hannukah. & we have 5 small children that need playing with. More
valuable & enjoyable than any box of electronics. & certainly more
complicated. Most were delivered late, although only by a couple of
weeks.
Hope you have your own family & kids to play with. It will all
eventually get sorted, and life will go on. We will all be a bit wiser.
All the best.
Neil
On 25 Dec 2006, at 5:44, Stein Bruch wrote:
> Guys/Gals,
> -
> Since I'm out of town for the holidays (like many of you) I can't take
> the time to call each one of you individually so I'm going to make a
> post here.- MANY of you guys purchased your Chelton systems through
my
> business and henceforth we'll all be in this together.- I'm
> embarrassed, upset and scared as to what is ultimately going to happen
> with this whole debacle.- I do know it's pretty crappy that this was
> dropped on all of us 24hrs before the holidays. I'm not in the office
> and most of you aren't at home so we can't even communicate about it.
> -
> Right now we just don't know all of the facts and what is going to
> happen so it's far to early to speculate as to the outcome.- What I
do
> know is that all of the dealers aren't sitting on your money.- Per
> D2A, we sent your payments to them for systems.- Some of you have
> complete systems, some of you have partial systems and a few have
> nothing.- All of you can be guaranteed that us dealers are in
contact
> with each other already, and we're all doing as much as we can to
> figure out this mess and find some sort of solution. This can't happen
> until after the holidays so don't expect much of an update before the
> new year.-- As dealers we're in a really horrible position....and
if
> we had your money the solutions would be easy...we'd just give your
> money back or buy something else.- But, the huge problem is that we
> don't have your money - and frankly not a single one of us dealers
> could survive or financially afford to eat this.- Remember, we're
not
> talking about a couple people, we're talking about many dozens
> of-you.-So, the end result is that we all have to just wait a few
days
> and see what gets sorted out.- We're all devastated, sick, scared
and
> stressed as to what the ultimate outcome is.- We all had some sort
of
> "gut feeling" that things at D2A were tough, but we had literally NO
> idea it was this bad.- Heck, it was just Friday that I received a
> shipment of SV-10 harnesses for a variety of customers from them.-
> -
> The only thing I can hope is that cooler heads prevail and everyone
> can still end up with a system.- Personally I still think the actual
> units are good units, but this whole mess is leaving-a really bad
> taste in my mouth.- Suffice to say that as an outcome of this, as a
> business we WILL NOT ever sell another product to customers where the
> distributor or mfgr requires money up front, even 50% (like another
> EFIS mfgr).- I'm able to run my business without using customers
money
> up front, and I expect the same from mfgrs.- If they can't do it,
then
> something is wrong.- I can't stand sitting on customers money when
> there is no product, hence the reason we just can't easily "pay
> everyone back".
> -
> In closing, I'd urge everyone to try and be patient for a few days
> while all of us dealers sort out this mess and figure out our options
> both legally and professionally for us and out customers. Rest assured
> we've all had some initial legal counsel on this and there is no doubt
> going to be more.- As the largest seller of Chelton products to the
RV
> market, I can guarantee you I'll sleep less than anyone during the
> next few days/weeks.- We're all working off of very little
> information, and what we do have is sketchy at best.- Getting good,
> accurate-& detailed-information in the next week is going to be
> impossible.- We're going to do our best to contact each one of you
> individually to review your specific situation, but at the moment
> there isn't going to be any solid answers because we just don't know
> where this is going to end up.- Like I said, hopefully some
> intelligent and cool heads at Chelton will prevail.- Like Tim, I'm
> deeply saddened by this mess because I was one the loudest proponents
> of the Chelton EFIS line and personally have the good fortune to call
> many of you my friends.- Being treated like this isn't fair, good,
or
> reasonable and not the way to do business.- I sincerely apologize
for
> what I can right now.....but we all need to sit tight for a few days
> and see what comes out of this.- It just makes me sick to see this
> sort of thing happen over and over again in aviation.- What is it
with
> people who run these businesses that-they just think it's ok to
> take/spend/loose people's hard earned money and then walk away?-
> Dealing with issues like this makes my blood boil.- I can't fathom
> treating people like that, and I can't imagine why anyone would let
> their business get to that point without even asking for help, warning
> the customers/dealers, etc......these sort of things don't happen
> overnight and to pretend they do is dubious at best and unfortuneately
> I'm sure this won't be the last time we see it.
> -
> Best regards and try to have a happy holiday,
> Stein.
> -
> -
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. Cox
>> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 9:41 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: FW: [LML] D2 Update
>>
>> Here is a valued post from someone I respect.- For a few RV-10
>> builders, this may cause some trepidation.- As many of you know, I
>> have been a strong supporter of Chelton products.- This is going to
>> be a better year in 2007.- Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
>> -
>> Don=92t shoot the messenger.
>> -
>>
>> John Cox
>> the Turbanator #40600
>>
>> Do not archive as this information will be worthless shortly and has
>> no archival value!
>>
>> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf
>> Of Brent Regan
>> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 2:12 PM
>> To: lml@lancaironline.net
>> Subject: [LML] D2 Update
>> -
>>
>> I have reviewed the situation with Kirk (D2) and Gordon (CFS). Here
>> is what I have learned.
>>
>> It is true that D2 has closed its doors. CFS has picked up new orders
>> with Lancair, Epic and D2's other dealers.
>>
>> CFS has an agreement with Pinpoint Inertial to distribute their
>> ADAHRS- /- GADAHRS.
>>
>> CFS is NOT responsible for commitments made by any of their dealers.
>> CFS's official information release is copied below.
>>
>> CFS is committed to supporting their products.
>>
>> So what happened? In my opinion the tipping point came with the X-bow
>> 42X problem. D2 could have told their customers that the 425 problems
>> were a X-bow warranty issue but instead they took the high road and
>> offered to replace the 425s with Pinpoints. One could imagine that
>> this put a tremendous strain on cash flow. Kirk thought it was a risk
>> worth taking but did not foresee two additional events. One was X-bow
>> getting into the EFIS market (Advanced).- This begs the question:
If
>> X-bow can make an ADAHRS for their own EFIS, why didn't they fix the
>> 42Xs???
>>
>> Second was Garmin's entry into the experimental market. This one is a
>> real mystery. As Hamid pointed out to me, why would Garmin's least
>> profitable division (avionics) enter the least profitable sector of
>> that market (experimental)? I am unaware of any other certified
>> aviation company that has made this retrograde market expansion.-
It
>> is like being married to Cindy Crawford and then having an affair
>> with Janet Reno. If I were a Garmin experimental customer I would be
>> nervous that Garmin will wake up and gnaw their arm off to get out of
>> the market as fast as possible.- Remember the Starship?
>>
>> In the end it was D2's commitment to it's customers that was their
>> undoing. D2's failure is a loss for everyone but their competitors.
>> Ironically, D2's failure is also bad news for X-bow as all the
>> customers that are holding 425's will be looking to X-bow to make
>> them well.
>>
>> The good news is that it seems all the products that were distributed
>> by D2 will still be available to builders through other
>> distributors.-
>>
>> I would also point out that the above is hearsay or the opinion of a
>> confessed idiot and should not be taken seriously.
>>
>> The authorized information is copied below.
>>
>> Wishing you and yours the Merriest Christmas possible and a safe New
>> Year with blue skies and cheap fuel.
>>
>> Regards
>> Brent Regan
>>
>> CHELTON FLIGHT SYSTEMS
>>
>> AUTHORIZED INFORMATION RELEASE REGARDING
>>
>> Direct 2 Avionics
>> - <>-
>> December 22, 2006
>>
>>
>> NOTE: THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS THE ONLY EXPLANATION THAT CHELTON
>> HAS AUTHORIZED RELATING TO DIRECT 2 AVIONICS SITUATION BY ANY
>> EMPLOYEE OF CHELTON. -THIS EXPLANATION IS THE ONLY EXPLANATION YOU
>> ARE AUTHORIZED TO PROVIDE ABOUT DIRECT 2 AVIONICS, ITS OWNERS OR
>> EMPLOYEES, AND BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP WITH CHELTON.- ANY OTHER
>> STATEMENT, SPECULATION, GOSSIP OR RUMOR REGARDING DIRECT 2 AVONICS
>> WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
>> -
>> ---
>> <>
>>
>> STATEMENT:
>> To Whom It May Concern:
>> ----------- By now you have probably heard that
DIRECT 2 AVIONICS
>> (=93D2A=94) had to close its business.- Like you, we at Chelton
Flight
>> Systems were disappointed and concerned that D2A felt it had to take
>> this action.
>> D2A was an authorized, independently-owned distributor for Chelton.--
>> Chelton has no ownership or other relationship with D2A.- Chelton
has
>> received various inquiries from persons who have alleged that they
>> were told by D2A that parts for which they claimed to have paid D2A
>> were =93back ordered.=94- Chelton currently has no purchase orders
from
>> D2A and there are no =93back orders=94 to be filled.- Chelton has
also
>> suspended taking any further purchase orders from D2A and has
>> suspended D2A=92s status as an authorized distributor.
>>
>> Chelton regrets any inconvenience or financial loss the situation
>> with D2A may have caused you.
>> -
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: short field performance |
To all that are flying the RV10,
What is your take on the short field performance of the 10? The Vans site is quoting
a lightly loaded (2200lb) 10 will get off the ground in 325 ft and land
in 525. Is this a real number of hype? I have a private strip with 1300 feet of
grass and obstacles at both ends, will the 10 fit in it? I am considering building
a 10 or a Sportsman 2+2. Believe it or not the 10 is less money for the
kit. I am not a new pilot, 1400 hrs in single, multi and Helicopter.
Thanks and have a Merry Christmas
Bob Spudis
Message 16
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Thanks for the info. This was part of my original
concerns when I sent the money direct to D2A rather than a dealer. As it
turns out the dealers were probably more stable than D2A. I will be OK
as I
have all the parts except the Pinpoint and then some. I insisted that
D2A
ship everything to me 09/2005 and I checked it all out by 11/2005 so it
was
working for me then. Although I did have to send the IDUs back several
times to fix some infant mortality problems. On the positive side Regan
Designs is still in business (to my knowledge) and they supply and
maintain the IDUs. The software should be the Chelton standard so
software and data base updates are going to be available. The big
question for most will probably be how to obtain the new or old
GAD(AHRS).
I have been asking Kirk and Amy for a couple of months
how they were staying in business given that they were unable to sell
new
systems. For awhile I thought they were using any new Pinpoint shipments
to sell
new customers and leave their old customers bare. I did , however, get
the new
connector kit and GPS antenna and installed them. About a month ago I
told
D2A that I would not ship my old AHRS back to them until receipt of the
Pinpoint. Looks like I might have to use the XBOW until it fails
depending
on what Chelton offers. Having been through the Stoddard Hamilton
bankruptcy, I would expect a new "at cost" price for the D2A units not
received
(but paid for) as Chelton (if not careful) will still spend a lot in the
courts over this. my IDUs say Chelton on the exterior.
----- Original Message -----
From: Stein Bruch
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 9:44 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: D2 Update
Guys/Gals,
Since I'm out of town for the holidays (like many of you) I can't take
the time to call each one of you individually so I'm going to make a
post here. MANY of you guys purchased your Chelton systems through my
business and henceforth we'll all be in this together. I'm embarrassed,
upset and scared as to what is ultimately going to happen with this
whole debacle. I do know it's pretty crappy that this was dropped on
all of us 24hrs before the holidays. I'm not in the office and most of
you aren't at home so we can't even communicate about it.
Right now we just don't know all of the facts and what is going to
happen so it's far to early to speculate as to the outcome. What I do
know is that all of the dealers aren't sitting on your money. Per D2A,
we sent your payments to them for systems. Some of you have complete
systems, some of you have partial systems and a few have nothing. All
of you can be guaranteed that us dealers are in contact with each other
already, and we're all doing as much as we can to figure out this mess
and find some sort of solution. This can't happen until after the
holidays so don't expect much of an update before the new year. As
dealers we're in a really horrible position....and if we had your money
the solutions would be easy...we'd just give your money back or buy
something else. But, the huge problem is that we don't have your money
- and frankly not a single one of us dealers could survive or
financially afford to eat this. Remember, we're not talking about a
couple people, we're talking about many dozens of you. So, the end
result is that we all have to just wait a few days and see what gets
sorted out. We're all devastated, sick, scared and stressed as to what
the ultimate outcome is. We all had some sort of "gut feeling" that
things at D2A were tough, but we had literally NO idea it was this bad.
Heck, it was just Friday that I received a shipment of SV-10 harnesses
for a variety of customers from them.
The only thing I can hope is that cooler heads prevail and everyone
can still end up with a system. Personally I still think the actual
units are good units, but this whole mess is leaving a really bad taste
in my mouth. Suffice to say that as an outcome of this, as a business
we WILL NOT ever sell another product to customers where the distributor
or mfgr requires money up front, even 50% (like another EFIS mfgr). I'm
able to run my business without using customers money up front, and I
expect the same from mfgrs. If they can't do it, then something is
wrong. I can't stand sitting on customers money when there is no
product, hence the reason we just can't easily "pay everyone back".
In closing, I'd urge everyone to try and be patient for a few days
while all of us dealers sort out this mess and figure out our options
both legally and professionally for us and out customers. Rest assured
we've all had some initial legal counsel on this and there is no doubt
going to be more. As the largest seller of Chelton products to the RV
market, I can guarantee you I'll sleep less than anyone during the next
few days/weeks. We're all working off of very little information, and
what we do have is sketchy at best. Getting good, accurate & detailed
information in the next week is going to be impossible. We're going to
do our best to contact each one of you individually to review your
specific situation, but at the moment there isn't going to be any solid
answers because we just don't know where this is going to end up. Like
I said, hopefully some intelligent and cool heads at Chelton will
prevail. Like Tim, I'm deeply saddened by this mess because I was one
the loudest proponents of the Chelton EFIS line and personally have the
good fortune to call many of you my friends. Being treated like this
isn't fair, good, or reasonable and not the way to do business. I
sincerely apologize for what I can right now.....but we all need to sit
tight for a few days and see what comes out of this. It just makes me
sick to see this sort of thing happen over and over again in aviation.
What is it with people who run these businesses that they just think
it's ok to take/spend/loose people's hard earned money and then walk
away? Dealing with issues like this makes my blood boil. I can't
fathom treating people like that, and I can't imagine why anyone would
let their business get to that point without even asking for help,
warning the customers/dealers, etc......these sort of things don't
happen overnight and to pretend they do is dubious at best and
unfortuneately I'm sure this won't be the last time we see it.
Best regards and try to have a happy holiday,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 9:41 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: FW: [LML] D2 Update
Here is a valued post from someone I respect. For a few RV-10
builders, this may cause some trepidation. As many of you know, I have
been a strong supporter of Chelton products. This is going to be a
better year in 2007. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Don't shoot the messenger.
John Cox
the Turbanator #40600
Do not archive as this information will be worthless shortly and has
no archival value!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf
Of Brent Regan
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 2:12 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] D2 Update
I have reviewed the situation with Kirk (D2) and Gordon (CFS). Here
is what I have learned.
It is true that D2 has closed its doors. CFS has picked up new
orders with Lancair, Epic and D2's other dealers.
CFS has an agreement with Pinpoint Inertial to distribute their
ADAHRS / GADAHRS.
CFS is NOT responsible for commitments made by any of their dealers.
CFS's official information release is copied below.
CFS is committed to supporting their products.
So what happened? In my opinion the tipping point came with the
X-bow 42X problem. D2 could have told their customers that the 425
problems were a X-bow warranty issue but instead they took the high road
and offered to replace the 425s with Pinpoints. One could imagine that
this put a tremendous strain on cash flow. Kirk thought it was a risk
worth taking but did not foresee two additional events. One was X-bow
getting into the EFIS market (Advanced). This begs the question: If
X-bow can make an ADAHRS for their own EFIS, why didn't they fix the
42Xs???
Second was Garmin's entry into the experimental market. This one is
a real mystery. As Hamid pointed out to me, why would Garmin's least
profitable division (avionics) enter the least profitable sector of that
market (experimental)? I am unaware of any other certified aviation
company that has made this retrograde market expansion. It is like
being married to Cindy Crawford and then having an affair with Janet
Reno. If I were a Garmin experimental customer I would be nervous that
Garmin will wake up and gnaw their arm off to get out of the market as
fast as possible. Remember the Starship?
In the end it was D2's commitment to it's customers that was their
undoing. D2's failure is a loss for everyone but their competitors.
Ironically, D2's failure is also bad news for X-bow as all the customers
that are holding 425's will be looking to X-bow to make them well.
The good news is that it seems all the products that were
distributed by D2 will still be available to builders through other
distributors.
I would also point out that the above is hearsay or the opinion of a
confessed idiot and should not be taken seriously.
The authorized information is copied below.
Wishing you and yours the Merriest Christmas possible and a safe New
Year with blue skies and cheap fuel.
Regards
Brent Regan
CHELTON FLIGHT SYSTEMS
AUTHORIZED INFORMATION RELEASE REGARDING
Direct 2 Avionics
<>
December 22, 2006
NOTE: THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS THE ONLY EXPLANATION THAT CHELTON
HAS AUTHORIZED RELATING TO DIRECT 2 AVIONICS SITUATION BY ANY EMPLOYEE
OF CHELTON. THIS EXPLANATION IS THE ONLY EXPLANATION YOU ARE AUTHORIZED
TO PROVIDE ABOUT DIRECT 2 AVIONICS, ITS OWNERS OR EMPLOYEES, AND
BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP WITH CHELTON. ANY OTHER STATEMENT, SPECULATION,
GOSSIP OR RUMOR REGARDING DIRECT 2 AVONICS WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
<>
STATEMENT:
To Whom It May Concern:
By now you have probably heard that DIRECT 2 AVIONICS
("D2A") had to close its business. Like you, we at Chelton Flight
Systems were disappointed and concerned that D2A felt it had to take
this action.
D2A was an authorized, independently-owned distributor for Chelton.
Chelton has no ownership or other relationship with D2A. Chelton has
received various inquiries from persons who have alleged that they were
told by D2A that parts for which they claimed to have paid D2A were
"back ordered." Chelton currently has no purchase orders from D2A and
there are no "back orders" to be filled. Chelton has also suspended
taking any further purchase orders from D2A and has suspended D2A's
status as an authorized distributor.
Chelton regrets any inconvenience or financial loss the situation
with D2A may have caused you.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Oxygen exterior fill port |
Many of your turbo-charged aircraft come with built-in tanks and a
fill port. I haven't looked at the fill port close enough to see if it
has a pressure gauge, but probably does. Any built-in system has to
be capable of your standard FBO 2000-2200psi max charge. Also, the IA
doing the annual on such a plane has to ensure the tank will be within
the time limits for a hydrostatic check for the next year, or remove
it and have it tested. Most turbocharged Mooneys came a Kevlar wrapped
tank that has a relatively short life span, something like 14-15
years, so many are being changed out now, and some opt to go to a
lower capacity aluminum tank with longer DOT lifespan to keep the wt.
the same.
On 12/24/06, linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> I'm not positive, but I believe the reason they don't fill high bottles
> in planes (or other vehicles!)is:
> The possibility of explosion from overpressure.
> The possibility of extra risk from leaking connections/ignition sources.
> The additional risk to their insurance carriers.
>
> I've never seen a water tank in the FBO (may have missed it!) but SCUBA
> bottles are required to be filled in a water tank to try and lessen the
> explosion damage and cool the bottles while they're being filled.
> Linn
>
>
> L Aune wrote:
>
> >
> > I was talking to a local FBO guy who said that all the aircraft in
> > their fleet were having to remove the O2 bottle for refill rather
> > than having O2 fill-up carts come out to the aircraft. Is the
> > external O2 filler port being outlawed or is this just a local
> > problem? Has anyone heard bout this problem? Do not archive.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 18
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Be advised that this type of thing happens not only in avionics but also
engines. Take a poll of those on the net who have paid for an engine and
not received it or received a painted "wreck". One of the Phoenix RV
builders has experience with paying for an engine to be shipped from
Canada but after $25K+ he received nothing. Try legal action across
countries boundaries.
----- Original Message -----
From: Stein Bruch
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 9:44 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: D2 Update
Guys/Gals,
Since I'm out of town for the holidays (like many of you) I can't take
the time to call each one of you individually so I'm going to make a
post here. MANY of you guys purchased your Chelton systems through my
business and henceforth we'll all be in this together. I'm embarrassed,
upset and scared as to what is ultimately going to happen with this
whole debacle. I do know it's pretty crappy that this was dropped on
all of us 24hrs before the holidays. I'm not in the office and most of
you aren't at home so we can't even communicate about it.
Right now we just don't know all of the facts and what is going to
happen so it's far to early to speculate as to the outcome. What I do
know is that all of the dealers aren't sitting on your money. Per D2A,
we sent your payments to them for systems. Some of you have complete
systems, some of you have partial systems and a few have nothing. All
of you can be guaranteed that us dealers are in contact with each other
already, and we're all doing as much as we can to figure out this mess
and find some sort of solution. This can't happen until after the
holidays so don't expect much of an update before the new year. As
dealers we're in a really horrible position....and if we had your money
the solutions would be easy...we'd just give your money back or buy
something else. But, the huge problem is that we don't have your money
- and frankly not a single one of us dealers could survive or
financially afford to eat this. Remember, we're not talking about a
couple people, we're talking about many dozens of you. So, the end
result is that we all have to just wait a few days and see what gets
sorted out. We're all devastated, sick, scared and stressed as to what
the ultimate outcome is. We all had some sort of "gut feeling" that
things at D2A were tough, but we had literally NO idea it was this bad.
Heck, it was just Friday that I received a shipment of SV-10 harnesses
for a variety of customers from them.
The only thing I can hope is that cooler heads prevail and everyone
can still end up with a system. Personally I still think the actual
units are good units, but this whole mess is leaving a really bad taste
in my mouth. Suffice to say that as an outcome of this, as a business
we WILL NOT ever sell another product to customers where the distributor
or mfgr requires money up front, even 50% (like another EFIS mfgr). I'm
able to run my business without using customers money up front, and I
expect the same from mfgrs. If they can't do it, then something is
wrong. I can't stand sitting on customers money when there is no
product, hence the reason we just can't easily "pay everyone back".
In closing, I'd urge everyone to try and be patient for a few days
while all of us dealers sort out this mess and figure out our options
both legally and professionally for us and out customers. Rest assured
we've all had some initial legal counsel on this and there is no doubt
going to be more. As the largest seller of Chelton products to the RV
market, I can guarantee you I'll sleep less than anyone during the next
few days/weeks. We're all working off of very little information, and
what we do have is sketchy at best. Getting good, accurate & detailed
information in the next week is going to be impossible. We're going to
do our best to contact each one of you individually to review your
specific situation, but at the moment there isn't going to be any solid
answers because we just don't know where this is going to end up. Like
I said, hopefully some intelligent and cool heads at Chelton will
prevail. Like Tim, I'm deeply saddened by this mess because I was one
the loudest proponents of the Chelton EFIS line and personally have the
good fortune to call many of you my friends. Being treated like this
isn't fair, good, or reasonable and not the way to do business. I
sincerely apologize for what I can right now.....but we all need to sit
tight for a few days and see what comes out of this. It just makes me
sick to see this sort of thing happen over and over again in aviation.
What is it with people who run these businesses that they just think
it's ok to take/spend/loose people's hard earned money and then walk
away? Dealing with issues like this makes my blood boil. I can't
fathom treating people like that, and I can't imagine why anyone would
let their business get to that point without even asking for help,
warning the customers/dealers, etc......these sort of things don't
happen overnight and to pretend they do is dubious at best and
unfortuneately I'm sure this won't be the last time we see it.
Best regards and try to have a happy holiday,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 9:41 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: FW: [LML] D2 Update
Here is a valued post from someone I respect. For a few RV-10
builders, this may cause some trepidation. As many of you know, I have
been a strong supporter of Chelton products. This is going to be a
better year in 2007. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Don't shoot the messenger.
John Cox
the Turbanator #40600
Do not archive as this information will be worthless shortly and has
no archival value!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf
Of Brent Regan
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 2:12 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] D2 Update
I have reviewed the situation with Kirk (D2) and Gordon (CFS). Here
is what I have learned.
It is true that D2 has closed its doors. CFS has picked up new
orders with Lancair, Epic and D2's other dealers.
CFS has an agreement with Pinpoint Inertial to distribute their
ADAHRS / GADAHRS.
CFS is NOT responsible for commitments made by any of their dealers.
CFS's official information release is copied below.
CFS is committed to supporting their products.
So what happened? In my opinion the tipping point came with the
X-bow 42X problem. D2 could have told their customers that the 425
problems were a X-bow warranty issue but instead they took the high road
and offered to replace the 425s with Pinpoints. One could imagine that
this put a tremendous strain on cash flow. Kirk thought it was a risk
worth taking but did not foresee two additional events. One was X-bow
getting into the EFIS market (Advanced). This begs the question: If
X-bow can make an ADAHRS for their own EFIS, why didn't they fix the
42Xs???
Second was Garmin's entry into the experimental market. This one is
a real mystery. As Hamid pointed out to me, why would Garmin's least
profitable division (avionics) enter the least profitable sector of that
market (experimental)? I am unaware of any other certified aviation
company that has made this retrograde market expansion. It is like
being married to Cindy Crawford and then having an affair with Janet
Reno. If I were a Garmin experimental customer I would be nervous that
Garmin will wake up and gnaw their arm off to get out of the market as
fast as possible. Remember the Starship?
In the end it was D2's commitment to it's customers that was their
undoing. D2's failure is a loss for everyone but their competitors.
Ironically, D2's failure is also bad news for X-bow as all the customers
that are holding 425's will be looking to X-bow to make them well.
The good news is that it seems all the products that were
distributed by D2 will still be available to builders through other
distributors.
I would also point out that the above is hearsay or the opinion of a
confessed idiot and should not be taken seriously.
The authorized information is copied below.
Wishing you and yours the Merriest Christmas possible and a safe New
Year with blue skies and cheap fuel.
Regards
Brent Regan
CHELTON FLIGHT SYSTEMS
AUTHORIZED INFORMATION RELEASE REGARDING
Direct 2 Avionics
<>
December 22, 2006
NOTE: THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS THE ONLY EXPLANATION THAT CHELTON
HAS AUTHORIZED RELATING TO DIRECT 2 AVIONICS SITUATION BY ANY EMPLOYEE
OF CHELTON. THIS EXPLANATION IS THE ONLY EXPLANATION YOU ARE AUTHORIZED
TO PROVIDE ABOUT DIRECT 2 AVIONICS, ITS OWNERS OR EMPLOYEES, AND
BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP WITH CHELTON. ANY OTHER STATEMENT, SPECULATION,
GOSSIP OR RUMOR REGARDING DIRECT 2 AVONICS WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
<>
STATEMENT:
To Whom It May Concern:
By now you have probably heard that DIRECT 2 AVIONICS
("D2A") had to close its business. Like you, we at Chelton Flight
Systems were disappointed and concerned that D2A felt it had to take
this action.
D2A was an authorized, independently-owned distributor for Chelton.
Chelton has no ownership or other relationship with D2A. Chelton has
received various inquiries from persons who have alleged that they were
told by D2A that parts for which they claimed to have paid D2A were
"back ordered." Chelton currently has no purchase orders from D2A and
there are no "back orders" to be filled. Chelton has also suspended
taking any further purchase orders from D2A and has suspended D2A's
status as an authorized distributor.
Chelton regrets any inconvenience or financial loss the situation
with D2A may have caused you.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Oxygen exterior fill port |
You like me friend have women that you are travelling with. In my case I
only have two. I have thought about your ideas, but i still believe
removable bottle is a must. I have two for my glider but use only one at a
time. I might use one of these inside the RV. I think I will get the
refill bottles, set of three at a time and set up a delivery station via my
dental office address, but at home, so I can refill my own.
I think a thing to think about is the kind of bags you are using and what
clothes you are taking on a trip. I know of several people who send their
cloths ahead via UPS, kind of a pain in the rear???? If your wife likes
shopping, give her the ability to shop in stores that are for backpackers
and hikers. All clothes need to be light and collapsible and kept in bags
that are prepacked and stored in the closet just for travel in the RV.
On one of the Mike Arnold's AR5 tapes, he shows making an external storage
pod for beneath the right and left wings of an RV that bolt to the main
spar. There must always be a problem with space in our small planes.
JOhn G.
Do Not Archive.
>From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oxygen exterior fill port
>Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 09:48:00 -0600
>
>
>John,
>
>This recent O2 thread just got me contemplating the same location,
>but then I realized this: Every time I've packed up the plane for
>a cross-country flight with suitcases, We've had to slide the suitcases
>into the baggage area, and the door doesn't have a lot of extra
>height, nor the baggage compartment a lot of extra width....so
>putting an O2 bottle right in the middle would drastically change
>my useability of the baggage area.
>
>Right now I have it in a padded case between the rear seats, which
>works well. But, I think ideally it would be in the rear behind
>the baggage wall. Unfortunately, doing that makes it only fillable
>with a moveable fill station or a really long whip. So I'm kind of
>torn on the ultimate solution right now. If you go behind the baggage
>wall, I'd be inclined to say to make sure you have a huge bottle,
>because you may have a much harder time getting it filled during
>a trip. Some places though, may have a portable fill station.
>
>Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>do not archive
>
>
>John Gonzalez wrote:
>>
>>
>>Richard,
>>
>>Out of curiosity, what are the estimated dimensions of that 48cuft bottle.
>> Not using your numbers for anything but thought. I was planning on
>>putting my bottle in the baggage area between the two seats, right on top
>>of the tunnel. Seems like a lot of areas to tie it down to. Also easier
>>for the air lines to go between the seats to all the occupants. Not
>>planning on permanent plumming in my undercomplex machine.
>>
>>>From: Richard Reynolds <rvreynolds@macs.net>
>>>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oxygen exterior fill port
>>>Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 07:20:07 -0500
>>>
>>>
>>>A removable Q2 bottle provides a lot more options (cheaper) for
>>>refilling .
>>>
>>>On my RV-6A, I chose a Mountain High E&S carbon fiber 48 cu-ft O2 bottle
>>>(CFFC-048). Total weight filled with 2 stations was 10 lbs. It lasts a
>>>very long time, which is good for x/c out west because you do not have
>>>to refill at every stop. If you do not want the weight for local flying,
>>>just remove the O2 bottle.
>>>
>>>We plan to install the same system on the RV-10 with the O2 bottle just
>>>behind the rear left pax seat where it is accessible for removable and
>>>refilling.
>>>
>>>Richard Reynolds
>>>
>>>On Dec 24, 2006, at 1:10 AM, L Aune wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I was talking to a local FBO guy who said that all the aircraft in
>>>>their fleet were having to remove the O2 bottle for refill rather than
>>>>having O2 fill-up carts come out to the aircraft. Is the external O2
>>>>filler port being outlawed or is this just a local problem? Has anyone
>>>>heard bout this problem? Do not archive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder wiring |
Hi Les....yup...I'm missed it (sorry).....posting my reply here for
archives:
-yes...build your rudder 'completely'...this includes top and bottom
fairings. You can send it off for paint as well.
-yes again...the wires will run through the lower vert stab spar...just
below the lower rod end bearing attach bracket (off to the side of the
internal tie down mount). Route the wires into the rudder about 1/8"
above the upper cutout of the lower rudder fairing....you can notch the
fairing in this area if needed to accept the wires.
-as mentioned earlier....make your harness long enough to a) pull the
harness out of the light attach fairing portion of the fairing for light
replacement and b) to pull the wires 'forward' for rudder removal (you
never know) using some type of plug connection (molex or spade will
work...just makes sure it's small enough to pass through the hole for
the light).
-lastly...the wire loom will be laying in the bottom of the fairing for
time and all eternity......your concerns of wire abrasion and chaffing
are valid...the inside of the fiberglass fairing is rough. I always wrap
my wire loom in this area with some 'spiral wrap'. You can buy it at ACS
or at your local Radio Shack. The stuff at Radio Shack is a lot cheaper
and will work fine in this area but the stuff from ACS is more heat
tolerant.
Good luck and Happy Holidays.
Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
Hi Rick
I posted this after your last post on the RV10 list and perhaps you
missed
it. I have taken the liberty of sending it to you directly as I am still
a
bit confused / uncertain as to whether or not I can form the rudder
leading
edges in advance of installing the rudder wiring.
I am assuming that the rudder lighting wires run through the interior of
the
rudder - is this the case?
I have an opportunity to have some of my completed sections painted and
would like to include the rudder section included when I drop them off
at
the paint shop.
Regards & Merry Christmas
Les Kearney
----- Original Message -----
From: LES KEARNEY
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rudder wiring
Hi Rick
I understand what you have posted - many thanks. Is there a chaffing
issue for the wires that run the length of the rudder interior? I would
be concerned about chaffing against the rudder stringers or is this a
misplaced concern?
Inquiring minds need to know
Les Kearney
RV10 #40643 - Lost in the empennage
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Gray <rickgray@roadrunner.com>
Date: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:47 pm
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Rudder wiring
> Hi Les,
> 1-The servo wiring will terminate at the servo in the forward
> section of the tailcone.
>
> 2-The trim motor wiring will terminate at the trim motor just
> below the forward emp fairing.
>
> 3-As for the rudder....depending on your lighting....you'll end up
> with wires for the strobe and nav light passing through the lower
> section of the vertical stab spar. Easiest way (imo) is to drill
> just below the bottom rudder hinge bracket. You may need to place
> a grommet in from each end of the spar for protection. Also, you
> may want to drill just off to the side as to not penetrate the
> tail tie down reinforcement. This will line your wires up just
> below the lower rod end bearing, allowing you to pass the wires
> through the lower fairing. For clarity....the wires will pass
> through the leading edge of the rudder in the opening just above
> the fiberglass fairing. I've done 5 or 6 these now and I always
> use a good connector in this area. Leave your harness long enough
> so that you can pull the tail light out and disconnect the wires
> for a) tail light replacement and b) rudder removal. The harness
> and connector will be stowed inside the lower fairing...savvy??
>
> Also, the wire for the lights can terminate at the bolt (use a
> ring terminal) at the lower rod end bearing attach.....rudder side
> of the spar.
>
> Hope this helps....Good Luck Les,
>
> Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
> http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Les Kearney
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:51 PM
> Subject: RV10-List: Rudder wiring
>
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> I have been wandering through the archives for info on rudder
> wiring. I believe that the preferred exit for trim servo wiring as
> well as other wiring is at the base of the rudder. For me wiring
> is a dark art at the moment and I am a bit concerned about
> building myself into a corner. In particular, my access to the
> rudder interior will be somewhat limited if I roll and rivet the
> rudder leading edges.
>
>
>
> My question is: how are wires secured in the interior of the
> rudder so that they do not chaff against the rudder stiffeners?
> Should I wait until wiring is done to complete the rudder?
>
>
>
> Inquiring minds need to know
>
>
>
> Les Kearney
>
> #40643 - Lost in the empennage
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Baggage door |
Robb..
Glad to, easy week next week so I'll be in touch. I hope I can get to you soon
enough, you know, to wipe out all those bad things Bob showed you. I'll give you
a call Tuesday...family awaits till then. Before you flame me ...I just snuck
away for a minute to peek at the emails...whew...wish I hadn't!!
Rick S.
40185
do notarchive
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