Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:49 AM - Re: Heater control hardware (Cal Hoffman)
2. 02:00 PM - Re: what do you call yourself to ATC? (Scott Schmidt)
3. 02:25 PM - 600HP RV-10 (Chris Johnston)
4. 03:13 PM - Re: 600HP RV-10 (John Hasbrouck)
5. 03:13 PM - Re: 600HP RV-10 (Albert Gardner)
6. 03:33 PM - Re: what do you call yourself to ATC? (Dave Saylor)
7. 04:03 PM - Re: 600HP RV-10 (Bruce Patton)
8. 05:37 PM - Re: what do you call yourself to ATC? (B. Rig)
9. 05:59 PM - Introduction To List (James S. Clark IV)
10. 06:20 PM - Firewall penetration (L Aune)
11. 06:23 PM - Re: what do you call yourself to ATC? (John Erickson)
12. 06:25 PM - Re: what do you call yourself to ATC? (bob.kaufmann)
13. 06:55 PM - Re: Introduction To List (Pascal)
14. 06:58 PM - Re: Introduction To List (John W. Cox)
15. 07:15 PM - Re: Introduction To List (John Hasbrouck)
16. 08:10 PM - Re: Introduction To List (Jesse Saint)
17. 08:16 PM - Re: Introduction To List (Rob Wright)
18. 08:58 PM - Re: Introduction To List (Kelly McMullen)
19. 09:12 PM - Re: Electrical System Critique (marcausman)
20. 09:15 PM - Re: Introduction To List (Deems Davis)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Heater control hardware |
Thanks,
Cal
----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert Gardner" <ibspud@adelphia.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 1:15 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Heater control hardware
>
> FF1-3
> Albert Gardner
> Yuma, AZ
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | what do you call yourself to ATC? |
I would say more and more I am hearing "RV XXXX", and Experimental is
phasing out. I have talked to a few different ATC controllers and they
all know what an RV is and like to hear that.
Is Steve Darton listening? What do you think?
Is there any problems saying "RV 104XP"? It seems like everyone up here
calls themselves "RV" and I have continued to called myself Experimental
but that is such a long word. I'm actually going to start saying "RV"
now and see what they say.
Scott Schmidt
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 7:37 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: what do you call yourself to ATC?
I hear some call "experimental", a few call "red experimental" and most
call
"rv-whatever". I don't know what is officially the right way, but most,
in
my experience, say the actual model of airplane, not experimental. I
have
heard of several cases where ATC wanted to know about and chat about
"that
4-seat RV" and one case where they actually asked the pilot to change
frequencies to chat about the plane, especially when hitting ground
speeds
over 185Kts on descent into an airport.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: what do you call yourself to ATC?
You've got it right. "Experimental <N-Number>, 10 miles East at 6500'
inbound with Oscar" For filing, I had been filing HXB/G, but now that
I hear "RV10" is in the system, RV10/G should work too. Usually
ATC asks what kind of plane we are, when they see the speeds we're
making....then I tell them I'm an RV10.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Chris Johnston wrote:
> Hey all -
>
> just sitting around staring at the James cowl that I picked up this
> evening from the freight station, and I wondered... when you call
> ATC and you're flying an RV, what do you call yourself? I know about
> 97% of you guys just rolled your eyes, but I've never flown in an RV
> of any type. Or anything experimental at all. Do you say
> "experimental 12345 downwind abeam" or what? Inquiring minds want to
> know.
>
> cj #40410 fuse www.perfectlygoodairplane.net do not archive
Message 3
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>From the Ebay ad...
Q: Is the plane more complete than the photos? What are the
included electronics? Is the finishing kit included, Are there any other
planes with this engine that flying that can comfirm the speeds ?
A: No, the plane is not more complete than the photos. In fact, in
the photos the fuselage looks complete as clecos are holding it together
temporarily to prove all the holes are perfectly drilled. With
everything drilled, dimpled, and deburred; it's ready to be assembled
like an erector set. The wings are completed. The expert and I have
worked for two years (him full time); I predict a one-month completion
time.
Sweet. That's excellent news. My RV-10 is way farther along than the
one in these pictures, so I should be flying in like a week or two
right? Awesome. Except I won't be able to go as fast with only 260
horses under the hood. Should I add nitrous?
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
do not archive this sillyness
Message 4
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Chris,
I think that nitrous is already included. The seller is obviously breathing
it!!!!
Message 5
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Well, I don't see a problem with finishing up in 1 month. After all, the
only thing left to do is riveting everything, cabin top, doors, windows,
landing gear, fairings, hang engine, baffles, cowl, etc. No paint or
pants I
assume-I mean if you're in a hurry....
They are working on the theory that if 1 guy can walk across the country
in
10 months, then 10 guys can do it in 1 month. So-all that is required is
more workers.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
-----Original Message-----
Subject: RV10-List: 600HP RV-10
>From the Ebay ad...
Q: Is the plane more complete than the photos? What are the
included electronics? Is the finishing kit included, Are there any other
planes with this engine that flying that can comfirm the speeds ?
A: No, the plane is not more complete than the photos. In fact,
in
the photos the fuselage looks complete as clecos are holding it together
temporarily to prove all the holes are perfectly drilled. With
everything drilled, dimpled, and deburred; it's ready to be assembled
like an erector set. The wings are completed. The expert and I have
worked for two years (him full time); I predict a one-month completion
time.
Sweet. That's excellent news. My RV-10 is way farther along than the
one in these pictures, so I should be flying in like a week or two
right? Awesome. Except I won't be able to go as fast with only 260
horses under the hood. Should I add nitrous?
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
do not archive this sillyness
Message 6
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| Subject: | what do you call yourself to ATC? |
AIM says to use "experimental" initially, then omit, and most operating
limitations only require that much when calling the tower.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 1:57 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: what do you call yourself to ATC?
--> <sschmidt@ussynthetic.com>
I would say more and more I am hearing "RV XXXX", and Experimental is
phasing out. I have talked to a few different ATC controllers and they all
know what an RV is and like to hear that.
Is Steve Darton listening? What do you think?
Is there any problems saying "RV 104XP"? It seems like everyone up here
calls themselves "RV" and I have continued to called myself Experimental but
that is such a long word. I'm actually going to start saying "RV"
now and see what they say.
Scott Schmidt
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 7:37 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: what do you call yourself to ATC?
I hear some call "experimental", a few call "red experimental" and most call
"rv-whatever". I don't know what is officially the right way, but most, in
my experience, say the actual model of airplane, not experimental. I have
heard of several cases where ATC wanted to know about and chat about "that
4-seat RV" and one case where they actually asked the pilot to change
frequencies to chat about the plane, especially when hitting ground speeds
over 185Kts on descent into an airport.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: what do you call yourself to ATC?
You've got it right. "Experimental <N-Number>, 10 miles East at 6500'
inbound with Oscar" For filing, I had been filing HXB/G, but now that I
hear "RV10" is in the system, RV10/G should work too. Usually ATC asks what
kind of plane we are, when they see the speeds we're making....then I tell
them I'm an RV10.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Chris Johnston wrote:
> Hey all -
>
> just sitting around staring at the James cowl that I picked up this
> evening from the freight station, and I wondered... when you call ATC
> and you're flying an RV, what do you call yourself? I know about 97%
> of you guys just rolled your eyes, but I've never flown in an RV of
> any type. Or anything experimental at all. Do you say "experimental
> 12345 downwind abeam" or what? Inquiring minds want to know.
>
> cj #40410 fuse www.perfectlygoodairplane.net do not archive
Message 7
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You do not understand the genius behind this RV 10. With 600 HP hung on th
e nose you fly it with the clecos, without the cabin, windows, fairings etc
. These are needed for both drag to keep it below supersonic and weight in
the tail.=0A =0ABruce Patton=0A =0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A----- Original M
essage ----=0AFrom: Albert Gardner <ibspud@adelphia.net>=0ATo: rv10-list@ma
tronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, February 8, 2007 3:12:31 PM=0ASubject: RE: RV
10-List: 600HP RV-10=0A=0A=0AWell, I don't see a problem with finishing up
in 1 month. After all, the only thing left to do is riveting everything, ca
bin top, doors, windows, landing gear, fairings, hang engine, baffles, cowl
, etc. No paint or pants I assume-I mean if you're in a hurry....=0AThey ar
e working on the theory that if 1 guy can walk across the country in 10 mon
ths, then 10 guys can do it in 1 month. So-all that is required is more wor
kers.=0AAlbert Gardner=0AYuma, AZ=0A =0A =0A-----Original Message-----=0A S
ubject: RV10-List: 600HP RV-10=0A>From the Ebay ad...=0A =0AQ: Is t
he plane more complete than the photos? What are the=0Aincluded electronics
? Is the finishing kit included, Are there any other=0Aplanes with this eng
ine that flying that can comfirm the speeds ? =0A =0AA:
No, the plane is not more complete than the photos. In fact, in=0Athe photo
s the fuselage looks complete as clecos are holding it together=0Atemporari
ly to prove all the holes are perfectly drilled. With=0Aeverything drilled,
dimpled, and deburred; it's ready to be assembled=0Alike an erector set. T
he wings are completed. The expert and I have=0Aworked for two years (him f
ull time); I predict a one-month completion=0Atime. =0A =0A =0ASweet. That
's excellent news. My RV-10 is way farther along than the=0Aone in these p
ictures, so I should be flying in like a week or two=0Aright? Awesome. Ex
cept I won't be able to go as fast with only 260=0Ahorses under the hood.
Should I add nitrous?=0A =0Acj=0A#40410=0Afuse=0Awww.perfectlygoodairplane.
=======
Message 8
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| Subject: | what do you call yourself to ATC? |
Message 9
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| Subject: | Introduction To List |
Hello all,
My name is Jim Clark and I would like to introduce myself to your
wonderful online community. I have been lurking for ~10 weeks now and
am finally brave enough to say hello. I'm addicted.
I, in partnership with a close colleague at work, have decided to
undertake this monumental project. I have been planning and budgeting
for several months and am still waffling on what may seem to you guys
as a very important fundamental decision: which kit RV-7 or RV-10.
First a brief background on my goals/budget for this project. Knowing
this info may elicit some targeted advice from you folks:
First: although I haven't finalized an airframe decision, the
following is pretty firmed up:
3 screen GRT EFIS / EM / MFD with internal WAAS & 5 Hz & probably
dual AHRS. (Want the chelton 2/3 screen but can't afford it).
Garmin GTX330 with TIS
Garmin SL30 Nav/Com
8000 audio panel
Panel mount GPS & other comm undecided.
New engine, & redundancy in most areas.
Cross country from east coast to midwest and occasional CA trips.
I am finishing up my IFR rating and absolutely cannot spend more than
150k over the next 2 years. With a strong desire for moderate IFR
capability and redundancy and nice avionics, I am finding myself
having to cut costs somewhere. My question is this: Is it crazy to
save 25k by choosing the RV-7 over the RV-10? I know it seems strange
to pick everything but the airframe first, but those are my
priorities (IFR & avionics first).
I want quickbuild and with ~32k worth of avionics, the RV-10 is
pushing 140k with a new 260 HP. I'd like to hear your thoughts,
should I get the RV-10 and initially save costs in the avionics area
by leaving blank panel area on the right side? I am single, but have
a strong desire to take more than 1 friend along on camping / biking
trips. My partner in this project is a coworker and luckily also a
neighbor. He has a family of 4.
I understand to both get Repairman certs we will need to purchase as
an LLC/corp is this right?
How much more gas / hr do you think the RV-10 is vs the RV-7. Are
there any other extra OPERATING expenses for the RV-10 over the RV-7
that I am misssing.
Thanks in advance for any responses. I apologize for the longwinded
introduction. I can hardly contain my excitement, but I am cautiously
approaching this project.
Cheers,
-Jim Clark
RV-Story DVD in hand and...
On the fence...
Message 10
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| Subject: | Firewall penetration |
I have heard from the Grand Rapids people that some builders have
used cannon plugs for their EIS wiring (EGT and CHT) and they have
not heard about any great problems. I would like to do the same and
am wondering about the cannon plug itself. I know that a temp.
difference at any joint can be problematic and was going to go the
alumel chromel pin and socket route. Did anybody solder these
connections. Feedback would be appreciated.
Len in Kelowna Canada 40381. Knee deep in wire.
Message 11
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| Subject: | what do you call yourself to ATC? |
Scott,
The AIM is very specific about this. Here is the quote (the examples in the
quote are from the AIM also).
QUOTE
"3. Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft type, model or
manufacturer's name, followed by the digits/letters of the registration
number. When the aircraft manufacturer's name or model is stated, the prefix
"N" is dropped; e.g., Aztec Two Four Six Four Alpha.
EXAMPLE-
1. Bonanza Six Five Five Golf.
2. Breezy Six One Three Romeo Experimental (omit "Experimental" after
initial contact)."
END QUOTE
Basically, using "Experimental XXX" is counter to what the AIM says. When
you think about it, it makes sense. The purpose of using the manufacturers
name in the callsign (not trying to start an argument on who the
manufacturer of an experimental is... For these purposes let's just call it
RV...) is to give the controller a small clue as to your capabilities. RV
XXX does that while Experimental XXX doesn't. Just tag Experimental to the
end of your callsign on initial contact to fulfill the requirements of the
ops limits and the AIM and you're good...
John
RV-10 #40208 Wings
RV-8 N94DW (or should that be RV 94DW Experimental? :-) )
(btw, moving to Ogden in 2 weeks... Any chance I can get a look at that
gorgeous plane?)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:57 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: what do you call yourself to ATC?
--> <sschmidt@ussynthetic.com>
I would say more and more I am hearing "RV XXXX", and Experimental is
phasing out. I have talked to a few different ATC controllers and they all
know what an RV is and like to hear that.
Is Steve Darton listening? What do you think?
Is there any problems saying "RV 104XP"? It seems like everyone up here
calls themselves "RV" and I have continued to called myself Experimental but
that is such a long word. I'm actually going to start saying "RV"
now and see what they say.
Scott Schmidt
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 7:37 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: what do you call yourself to ATC?
I hear some call "experimental", a few call "red experimental" and most call
"rv-whatever". I don't know what is officially the right way, but most, in
my experience, say the actual model of airplane, not experimental. I have
heard of several cases where ATC wanted to know about and chat about "that
4-seat RV" and one case where they actually asked the pilot to change
frequencies to chat about the plane, especially when hitting ground speeds
over 185Kts on descent into an airport.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: what do you call yourself to ATC?
You've got it right. "Experimental <N-Number>, 10 miles East at 6500'
inbound with Oscar" For filing, I had been filing HXB/G, but now that I
hear "RV10" is in the system, RV10/G should work too. Usually ATC asks what
kind of plane we are, when they see the speeds we're making....then I tell
them I'm an RV10.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Chris Johnston wrote:
> Hey all -
>
> just sitting around staring at the James cowl that I picked up this
> evening from the freight station, and I wondered... when you call ATC
> and you're flying an RV, what do you call yourself? I know about 97%
> of you guys just rolled your eyes, but I've never flown in an RV of
> any type. Or anything experimental at all. Do you say "experimental
> 12345 downwind abeam" or what? Inquiring minds want to know.
>
> cj #40410 fuse www.perfectlygoodairplane.net do not archive
__________ NOD32 2046 (20070208) Information __________
Message 12
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| Subject: | what do you call yourself to ATC? |
Damn Lucky
Bob K 0<))
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B. Rig
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 5:37 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: what do you call yourself to ATC?
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Introduction To List |
It's a matter of a 2 seater or 4 seater. Have a family of 4? want to fly 2
of them at once than the 7 won't work, want more camping space; the RV-10
back seat folds down. Going to fly solo everywhere the 7 is more than
enough, etc.
I would ask yourself what your mission is first than determine the avionics.
There is a whole lot of resources on all of this in the EAA Homebuilders
link.( http://www.eaa.org/education/homebuilt_aircraft.html ) If your a
current EAA member- check out all the stages covered and the FAQ under each.
You're going to burn more fuel in the RV-10 simply because it's a slightly
larger plane that uses a larger engine, but again..mission. Makes no
difference if the RV-7 has better MPG and everything else if you want to
carry more than 1 passenger.
As far as the repairman's cert- 1 per person per plane:
from the EAA site: When a Chapter (or school, club, or partnership) builds
an aircraft, only one individual will be considered for a Repairman
Certificate for each aircraft built. Typically, the designated project
leader will be the one who applies for the Repairman Certificate. The
project leader should also be the on who signs for the airworthiness of the
aircraft on FAA Form 8130-6 block III.
Best of success with this decision.
Pascal
----- Original Message -----
From: "James S. Clark IV" <james.s.clark@comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 5:59 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Introduction To List
> <james.s.clark@comcast.net>
>
> Hello all,
>
> My name is Jim Clark and I would like to introduce myself to your
> wonderful online community. I have been lurking for ~10 weeks now and am
> finally brave enough to say hello. I'm addicted.
>
> I, in partnership with a close colleague at work, have decided to
> undertake this monumental project. I have been planning and budgeting for
> several months and am still waffling on what may seem to you guys as a
> very important fundamental decision: which kit RV-7 or RV-10.
>
> First a brief background on my goals/budget for this project. Knowing
> this info may elicit some targeted advice from you folks:
>
> First: although I haven't finalized an airframe decision, the following
> is pretty firmed up:
> 3 screen GRT EFIS / EM / MFD with internal WAAS & 5 Hz & probably dual
> AHRS. (Want the chelton 2/3 screen but can't afford it).
> Garmin GTX330 with TIS
> Garmin SL30 Nav/Com
> 8000 audio panel
> Panel mount GPS & other comm undecided.
> New engine, & redundancy in most areas.
> Cross country from east coast to midwest and occasional CA trips.
>
> I am finishing up my IFR rating and absolutely cannot spend more than
> 150k over the next 2 years. With a strong desire for moderate IFR
> capability and redundancy and nice avionics, I am finding myself having
> to cut costs somewhere. My question is this: Is it crazy to save 25k by
> choosing the RV-7 over the RV-10? I know it seems strange to pick
> everything but the airframe first, but those are my priorities (IFR &
> avionics first).
>
> I want quickbuild and with ~32k worth of avionics, the RV-10 is pushing
> 140k with a new 260 HP. I'd like to hear your thoughts, should I get the
> RV-10 and initially save costs in the avionics area by leaving blank
> panel area on the right side? I am single, but have a strong desire to
> take more than 1 friend along on camping / biking trips. My partner in
> this project is a coworker and luckily also a neighbor. He has a family
> of 4.
>
> I understand to both get Repairman certs we will need to purchase as an
> LLC/corp is this right?
>
> How much more gas / hr do you think the RV-10 is vs the RV-7. Are there
> any other extra OPERATING expenses for the RV-10 over the RV-7 that I am
> misssing.
>
> Thanks in advance for any responses. I apologize for the longwinded
> introduction. I can hardly contain my excitement, but I am cautiously
> approaching this project.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jim Clark
> RV-Story DVD in hand and...
> On the fence...
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Introduction To List |
Jim, add the RV-9 to your evaluation. The wing and tail give similar
flight performance as the RV-10 to a cruiser/IFR platform. If you
wanted a nimble hot-rod then the RV-7A or RV-7 would be better "Mission
Suitable". Read the archives on how the path to having EFIS and
multi-screen EFIS was made more difficult by the placement of support
ribs, in their design.
A little research is going to help you a lot in your decision. The
first step is selecting the journey. You are now well on your way. You
will find a lot of support in anything you chose. JMHO.
Your absolute needs to be balanced with the reality of builders that are
now flying the RV-10 which meets your mission. Both the kit and the
engine continue to reflect the Time Value of Money. A quick build well
help you reach your absolute much sooner. Out of Money. Only one of
you will get a Repairman Certificate. Figure that out early. If your
partner must have 4 POB then you better do a lean budget and get a firm
grip. Fuel burn at 12.5gph at 65% is a good benchmark for fuel
consumption. An IO-360 or 400 is not going to push an RV-10. Come on
over the grass is always Green and in need of cutting.
Help make us 1,000 kits strong.
John Cox
#40600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S.
Clark IV
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 5:59 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Introduction To List
<james.s.clark@comcast.net>
Hello all,
My name is Jim Clark and I would like to introduce myself to your
wonderful online community. I have been lurking for ~10 weeks now and
am finally brave enough to say hello. I'm addicted.
I, in partnership with a close colleague at work, have decided to
undertake this monumental project. I have been planning and budgeting
for several months and am still waffling on what may seem to you guys
as a very important fundamental decision: which kit RV-7 or RV-10.
First a brief background on my goals/budget for this project. Knowing
this info may elicit some targeted advice from you folks:
First: although I haven't finalized an airframe decision, the
following is pretty firmed up:
3 screen GRT EFIS / EM / MFD with internal WAAS & 5 Hz & probably
dual AHRS. (Want the chelton 2/3 screen but can't afford it).
Garmin GTX330 with TIS
Garmin SL30 Nav/Com
8000 audio panel
Panel mount GPS & other comm undecided.
New engine, & redundancy in most areas.
Cross country from east coast to midwest and occasional CA trips.
I am finishing up my IFR rating and absolutely cannot spend more than
150k over the next 2 years. With a strong desire for moderate IFR
capability and redundancy and nice avionics, I am finding myself
having to cut costs somewhere. My question is this: Is it crazy to
save 25k by choosing the RV-7 over the RV-10? I know it seems strange
to pick everything but the airframe first, but those are my
priorities (IFR & avionics first).
I want quickbuild and with ~32k worth of avionics, the RV-10 is
pushing 140k with a new 260 HP. I'd like to hear your thoughts,
should I get the RV-10 and initially save costs in the avionics area
by leaving blank panel area on the right side? I am single, but have
a strong desire to take more than 1 friend along on camping / biking
trips. My partner in this project is a coworker and luckily also a
neighbor. He has a family of 4.
I understand to both get Repairman certs we will need to purchase as
an LLC/corp is this right?
How much more gas / hr do you think the RV-10 is vs the RV-7. Are
there any other extra OPERATING expenses for the RV-10 over the RV-7
that I am misssing.
Thanks in advance for any responses. I apologize for the longwinded
introduction. I can hardly contain my excitement, but I am cautiously
approaching this project.
Cheers,
-Jim Clark
RV-Story DVD in hand and...
On the fence...
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Introduction To List |
Jim,
I've always been a fan of Van's aircraft but, at 6' 3", I found the two
place RV's tight in the headroom department. The -10 was a better "fit" for
me. It impresses me as a great, comfortable cross country plane with room to
stretch. I also want to take friends along on occasion and the -10 is
obviously better for that mission than the -7. I'm instrument rated but
will probably equip my plane simply at first with the option to upgrade.
I'm designing the panel with that in mind.
A Lycoming IO-360 will burn 10 GPH in cruise. That's what you'd
probably use in the -7. The IO-540 in the -10 will burn 12 to 15 GPH in
cruise ( check Tim's site for better numbers) multiply the difference by
$4.50/gal avgas to get a rough idea if increased fuel costs. Speeds are
close enough for either so no advantage one way or the other. When I owned
factory built planes I'd figure the total hourly operating cost to be 3X the
hourly fuel cost and it seemed to work well for 100 hours/year minimum.
Nowadays 4X the hourly fuel cost may be more appropriate. In reality I
think you'll fly the -10 for more than the -7 but the mission capablities
are greater with the -10. I think the additional cost are worth the greater
flexability.
Don't jump too quickly (pardon the pun) into the quickbuild options.
I'm going standard kits all the way and have progressed very quickly using
only the spare time I have after work and weekends. Most of that working on
my own. I decided to save the bucks I'd have spent on the quickbuild and
put it into other areas of the plane.
I'm sure you'll get a lot of advice from the group, just my $.02 worth.
John Hasbrouck
#40264
Message 16
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| Subject: | Introduction To List |
I will answer below a little.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S. Clark IV
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 8:59 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Introduction To List
<james.s.clark@comcast.net>
Hello all,
My name is Jim Clark and I would like to introduce myself to your
wonderful online community. I have been lurking for ~10 weeks now and
am finally brave enough to say hello. I'm addicted.
I, in partnership with a close colleague at work, have decided to
undertake this monumental project. I have been planning and budgeting
for several months and am still waffling on what may seem to you guys
as a very important fundamental decision: which kit RV-7 or RV-10.
[Jesse Saint] This should not be too hard, considering your comments below
on possibly needing more than 2 seats sometimes. I agree with JC that RV-9
should be in consideration possibly before the -7, but I still recommend the
-10.
First a brief background on my goals/budget for this project. Knowing
this info may elicit some targeted advice from you folks:
First: although I haven't finalized an airframe decision, the
following is pretty firmed up:
3 screen GRT EFIS / EM / MFD with internal WAAS & 5 Hz & probably
dual AHRS. (Want the chelton 2/3 screen but can't afford it).
Garmin GTX330 with TIS
Garmin SL30 Nav/Com
8000 audio panel
Panel mount GPS & other comm undecided.
New engine, & redundancy in most areas.
Cross country from east coast to midwest and occasional CA trips.
[Jesse Saint] Sounds like a good panel, but you should be able to get going
a fair bit cheaper (~$10K) by slimming this down to start with if your
budget doesn't allow.
I am finishing up my IFR rating and absolutely cannot spend more than
150k over the next 2 years. With a strong desire for moderate IFR
capability and redundancy and nice avionics, I am finding myself
having to cut costs somewhere. My question is this: Is it crazy to
save 25k by choosing the RV-7 over the RV-10? I know it seems strange
to pick everything but the airframe first, but those are my
priorities (IFR & avionics first).
[Jesse Saint] Where is your neighbor/partner in this area? Depending on
what you do for an engine, paint and interior, you should be able to do this
if you are careful. I would say that in many areas, including resale, a 25K
difference in cost would scream "RV-10" as a choice. It is a very
comfortable and practical x-country platform, much easier (from all I have
heard) to control in turbulence and very comfortable for just about all
sizes of people. The -7 and -9 are great planes, but your mission seems to
be a much better fit for the -10, if you can afford it. Even leaving it
unpainted and with a fairly bare interior would make sense if you can't
spring for it to start with.
I want quickbuild and with ~32k worth of avionics, the RV-10 is
pushing 140k with a new 260 HP. I'd like to hear your thoughts,
should I get the RV-10 and initially save costs in the avionics area
by leaving blank panel area on the right side? I am single, but have
a strong desire to take more than 1 friend along on camping / biking
trips. My partner in this project is a coworker and luckily also a
neighbor. He has a family of 4.
[Jesse Saint] Saving initial costs in the panel is the best way to go IMHO,
because it is the easiest to add to down the road, especially a little at a
time if necessary. The QB will probably save about 500 hours. This is a
good place, IMHO, to save 12K and go for the avionics and paint to start
with, but it will take longer to get in the air, of course.
I understand to both get Repairman certs we will need to purchase as
an LLC/corp is this right?
[Jesse Saint] Only ONE person can get a repairman certificate for the plane,
period. If one of you is an A&P, then he wouldn't need it.
How much more gas / hr do you think the RV-10 is vs the RV-7. Are
there any other extra OPERATING expenses for the RV-10 over the RV-7
that I am misssing.
[Jesse Saint] In my experience, maybe contrary to popular belief, the
operating costs shouldn't be much different, and actually will be much
cheaper in the -10 per seat if you fill them (uh, if you fill the seats than
the -7 is out anyway, right?)
Thanks in advance for any responses. I apologize for the longwinded
introduction. I can hardly contain my excitement, but I am cautiously
approaching this project.
Cheers,
-Jim Clark
RV-Story DVD in hand and...
On the fence...
--
3:33 PM
Message 17
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| Subject: | Introduction To List |
Family of 4 is your neighbor? Either commit now to $150K split 2 ways or
find another partner who wants an RV-7. If you go with the -7 I have a
feeling the neighbor will want the -10 halfway through the project and leave
you holding the 100% bag.
Even taking 1 friend on your stated trips, the -10 will be a nice addition
for the large-sized gear you'll have to take, but that's a $30k question
you'll have to answer. How much camping/biking gear can you rent locally for
$30k over the next 10 years, but that you're not familiar with and changes
each time you go?
Save money and go with the -10: Use a 2 screen GRT setup with a DA-10 Dynon
backup for unrelated redundancy, or at least go with an overhauled motor.
You'll save at least $10-20K right there on the motor.
Rob Wright
-10 QB #392
Trying to stay under $150K with G-900X in the plans (overhauled motor with
new cyl's, Hartzell Prop, no other major mods)....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S. Clark IV
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 7:59 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Introduction To List
<james.s.clark@comcast.net>
Hello all,
My name is Jim Clark and I would like to introduce myself to your
wonderful online community. I have been lurking for ~10 weeks now and
am finally brave enough to say hello. I'm addicted.
I, in partnership with a close colleague at work, have decided to
undertake this monumental project. I have been planning and budgeting
for several months and am still waffling on what may seem to you guys
as a very important fundamental decision: which kit RV-7 or RV-10.
First a brief background on my goals/budget for this project. Knowing
this info may elicit some targeted advice from you folks:
First: although I haven't finalized an airframe decision, the
following is pretty firmed up:
3 screen GRT EFIS / EM / MFD with internal WAAS & 5 Hz & probably
dual AHRS. (Want the chelton 2/3 screen but can't afford it).
Garmin GTX330 with TIS
Garmin SL30 Nav/Com
8000 audio panel
Panel mount GPS & other comm undecided.
New engine, & redundancy in most areas.
Cross country from east coast to midwest and occasional CA trips.
I am finishing up my IFR rating and absolutely cannot spend more than
150k over the next 2 years. With a strong desire for moderate IFR
capability and redundancy and nice avionics, I am finding myself
having to cut costs somewhere. My question is this: Is it crazy to
save 25k by choosing the RV-7 over the RV-10? I know it seems strange
to pick everything but the airframe first, but those are my
priorities (IFR & avionics first).
I want quickbuild and with ~32k worth of avionics, the RV-10 is
pushing 140k with a new 260 HP. I'd like to hear your thoughts,
should I get the RV-10 and initially save costs in the avionics area
by leaving blank panel area on the right side? I am single, but have
a strong desire to take more than 1 friend along on camping / biking
trips. My partner in this project is a coworker and luckily also a
neighbor. He has a family of 4.
I understand to both get Repairman certs we will need to purchase as
an LLC/corp is this right?
How much more gas / hr do you think the RV-10 is vs the RV-7. Are
there any other extra OPERATING expenses for the RV-10 over the RV-7
that I am misssing.
Thanks in advance for any responses. I apologize for the longwinded
introduction. I can hardly contain my excitement, but I am cautiously
approaching this project.
Cheers,
-Jim Clark
RV-Story DVD in hand and...
On the fence...
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Introduction To List |
I'm with others on cut back on your avionics. I don't believe you
mentioned an autopilot. Absolutely get at least a wing leveler or
better. Dump the 330 transponder. TIS will slowly go away and there
are better, cheaper ways to get traffic. That alone will get you
started on an autopilot. Look to other sources than Van's for a custom
built engine for less money.
Your missions really speak 4 place. You aren't carrying enough baggage
to go coast to coast with a pax in a two place with much comfort.
Especially not with any form of paper charts. Consider 2 screen rather
than three, and some 2 1/4 backup steam gauges..you will lose
electrics some time. Consider 496 in a panel mount for nav backup.
On 2/8/07, Rob Wright <armywrights@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> Family of 4 is your neighbor? Either commit now to $150K split 2 ways or
> find another partner who wants an RV-7. If you go with the -7 I have a
> feeling the neighbor will want the -10 halfway through the project and leave
> you holding the 100% bag.
>
> Even taking 1 friend on your stated trips, the -10 will be a nice addition
> for the large-sized gear you'll have to take, but that's a $30k question
> you'll have to answer. How much camping/biking gear can you rent locally for
> $30k over the next 10 years, but that you're not familiar with and changes
> each time you go?
> First: although I haven't finalized an airframe decision, the
> following is pretty firmed up:
> 3 screen GRT EFIS / EM / MFD with internal WAAS & 5 Hz & probably
> dual AHRS. (Want the chelton 2/3 screen but can't afford it).
> Garmin GTX330 with TIS
> Garmin SL30 Nav/Com
> 8000 audio panel
> Panel mount GPS & other comm undecided.
> New engine, & redundancy in most areas.
> Cross country from east coast to midwest and occasional CA trips.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Critique |
John,
Unless you believe that you'll have a disabling catastophic failure caused by the
main battery, you could simplify your system by wiring the two batteries in
parallel and eliminate a contactor and switch. It may be hard to properly diagnose
and manage such a failure while in flight. And if that type of failure occurred,
you'd lose your attitude sources while you diagnosed the problem and
switched to the backup batt.
It sounds likes you mainly want some extra juice for starting and alternator failure,
and if that's the case, wiring the batteries in parallel would take care
of that and always be available.
--------
Marc Ausman
http://www.verticalpower.com
RV-7 IO-390 Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93860#93860
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Introduction To List |
Jim. congratulations on having made the decision to build your own
airplane. Sticking with the RV series of planes will provide you a
support system and the benefits of engineering derived from a fleet of
flying planes that totals nearly 5000 !. (That's more than either
Columbia or Cirus) Doing so you will join a group of
motivated,opinionated, and enthusiastic people that do something that
others think impossible.
Now at the risk of p*****g you off. I think you're going about the
decision from the wrong end. It's easy to get enamored with the 'electro
whizzies/ (Believe me I know I've got a panel full of them!!!!).
BUT----- unless you're going to quit work and build 10 hours a day every
day, this project is going to take you at least a couple of years. (I've
quit work, work 4-6 hours on the plane every day and ITS STILL going to
take me over 2 years to finish!!!!) In that time frame the list of
viable/and affordable electro wizzies will very likely change. The neat
thing about building these planes is that one of the easiest things to
change after you've built the plane is the panel itself. WITHOUT A DOUBT
the MOST DIFFICULT thing to change would be to add 2 more seats to a 2
seat airplane!!!!!.
So.... Think seriously about whether 2 or 4 seats will suit the type of
flying you and your partner will be doing. that's the 1st step to
defining your mission. If it's 4 Stop cause you won't find a better 4
place plane than the -10. If its 2, then decide whether Acro is
important to you or not, if not look @ a -9, if it is then decide if you
want tandem or sidebyside seating. (-7 or -8). then you can move on to
the engine/avionics and assorted decisions. I know this isn't the
answer you were looking for,...... but you were asking for help! And
that's the spirit that this is intended in.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
J
>
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