Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:10 AM - Re: Re: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet (Deems Davis)
2. 07:58 AM - Re: Re: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet (Ben Westfall)
3. 09:02 AM - Re: Re: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet (John W. Cox)
4. 10:50 AM - VS-1014 Question in Empennage (Bob Leffler)
5. 10:57 AM - Re: VS-1014 Question in Empennage (James Hein)
6. 11:45 AM - Re: Re: 600HP RV-10 (lessdragprod@aol.com)
7. 12:01 PM - Re: unbelievable!!! (lessdragprod@aol.com)
8. 12:26 PM - Re: unbelievable!!! (David Boone)
9. 01:01 PM - Fuel Tank Attach Nutplates (Shawn Moon)
10. 01:06 PM - Re: Re: 600HP RV-10 (JOHN STARN)
11. 01:08 PM - Re: Fuel Tank Attach Nutplates (James Hein)
12. 01:10 PM - Re: unbelievable!!! (John W. Cox)
13. 03:16 PM - Re: Re: 600HP RV-10 (Mike Doble (Home Office))
14. 03:38 PM - Re: VS-1014 Question in Empennage (Jesse Saint)
15. 03:53 PM - Re: unbelievable!!! (Jesse Saint)
16. 03:56 PM - Re: unbelievable!!! (SteinAir, Inc.)
17. 04:24 PM - Re: unbelievable!!! (James Hein)
18. 04:34 PM - 2+How many? (Jesse Saint)
19. 05:20 PM - Re: Re: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet (John Testement)
20. 05:26 PM - Re: unbelievable!!! (LessDragProd@aol.com)
21. 05:32 PM - Re: Fuel Tank Attach Nutplates (Shawn Moon)
22. 05:52 PM - Re: Fuel Tank Attach Nutplates (Jesse Saint)
23. 06:28 PM - Re: unbelievable!!! (Steven DiNieri)
24. 06:36 PM - Re: Electrical System Critique (John Testement)
25. 07:14 PM - Re: 2+How many? (Dj Merrill)
26. 08:29 PM - Re: 2+How many? (JOHN STARN)
27. 08:29 PM - Re: Electrical System Critique (Larry Rosen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet |
Jim
Some things to consider adding to your list.
1. Shipping, Not just for QB, but for Empenage, Finishing, FFW,
Engine, Avionics, etc. and the 20-50 additional orders that you will
place to Van's, Aircraft Spruce, etc. (it adds up!). Easily another $1-2k
2. Heated Pitot (IFR?) $400
3. Wiring. Harnesses; Are you going to do it yourself? Even so you will
have hundreds to thousands of dollars in wire, pins,connectors,
terminals, circuit breakers, switches, dimmers etc. Do you have the
tools to do the wiring crimpers, strippers, pin insertion/removal,
solder ? If not add at least a couple hundred more for these.
4. Replacement parts and shipping, you may be the only builder to do it
all right the 1st time, but if not you may have to purchase replacement
parts, packaging, shipping... (min several hundred $'s
5. Will you prime your aircraft? if so add cost of primer (not cheap)
and application tools. Will you paint the interior of your plane?
6. Interior? The front seats that Van's sends do not include even the
foam for cushions. Add $1k -$10k
7. Composite/fiberglass supplies epoxy, hardener, cloth, fillers,
thickeners, primers, and tools. (Fiberglass dulls/ruins metal working
tools very fast) There's more fiberglass on this kit than you would
suspect at 1st
8. Do you have an existing shop that is well equipped with tools? (e.g
2 different torque wrenches, compressor, spray gun/s, air hoses, ...),
The RV kits are just the additional tools that you will need. You should
think seriously about a pneumatic squeezer, or think about extending the
timeframe to build. There must easily be 20,000 rivets in the plane.
9. Not sure what you include in Firewall Forward accessories, but Van's
kit price exceeds your cost for this and the prop governor.
10. CHT & EGT probes and sensors and wiring harness.
12. A professional paint job After you are flying will likely cost you
at least $7-8K. and those that do it for RV's are booked a year out.
(You may be able to do it for less if you find someone locally and paint
the parts while you're building. but I talked with another builder a
couple of nights ago who went this route and it cost him $6-8k)
11. Have you considered the annual operating costs? Insurance alone will
likely run you $3-4k
When I was at a similar stage in my decision/planning process I thought
I could build and fly the plane for $129k. (that was 2 price increase
cycles ago) I've blown through that figure considerably, part of the
reason was I didn't anticipate some of the above, and the rest of the
reasons were decisions I made along the way that consciously added cost.
I think that virtually all of the people on this list will tell you that
their costs/ final estimates exceeded their original estimates by a
significantly greater margin than they originally anticipated. (I
finally got to the point where I quit updating my spreadsheet, because I
wanted to stay in a state of denial!). Just make sure that your
planning/decision process leaves some realistic contingencies available
if you miss your original budget. There's too much love and passion
that goes into building these things to see it lost/halted part way
through the process.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing FWF - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
James S. Clark IV wrote:
> Hello again all,
>
> Thanks for the responses. I have tried to combine new questions and
> responses to others questions here to save list traffic...
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet |
James,
I didn't see any mention of antennas. Here are some examples for
planning...
COM $149 x 2 CI-122
NAV $299 x 1 (VOR) CI-157C
XPDR $129 x 1 KA-61
-Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S. Clark IV
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 9:04 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet
Hello again all,
Thanks for the responses. I have tried to combine new questions and
responses to others questions here to save list traffic...
Research is the best part of getting ready for this...I'll bet I
already have 300-400 hours and only a DVD from Vans purchased so far...
Jesse-Thanks, I appreciate the advice to save on the panel at first.
I'll work on trimming that to a minimal IFR platform with glass that
can be grown without buying anything in panel that later gets out-ed
by something else.
Kelly-Thanks, the 32k already included the TruTrak digiflight-II VSGV
and a Garmin 496 in the airgizmo mount.
Russ-Actually, I was looking at 3 screen Horizon 1 with 2x AHRS (I'm
a timid IFR pilot who likes backup). Although this is what I have
spending the most time looking at recently...no matter how much I
read the cross connects and interconnects in the GRT documentation, I
can't get a clear picture of how it would work with: (Horizon1
GRTSport Horizon1) as you have it. Doesn't that limit the HSI from
being on the 2nd screen where you want it? I'll probably have lots
more questions for you to help me in this area in the coming weeks.
Please tell me what is overkill and what makes sense: 3 Horizon (each
with a 5H WAAS GPS) & 2 separate AHRS? I see now that you can buy a
second AHRS one in the same box for only 1500. Is this any less
redundant? Your panel has been one of my "mentors" :). Why did you
choose the sport & the middle location instead of position #3 for the
sport? Thanks. If I get 2 of the Horizon1's each with internal WAAS
5Hz GPS, I assume I have to run 2 antennas. 3 internal gps's would
probably be nuts right?
Jeff- I'm located in northern VA.
Crazy ebay ad: Noticed the RV7 N-Number of ad posters neighbor/friend
is also visible in last picture in ad: N577AZ has address near
individual you listed so I think your little investigative work is
correct.
Attached is a spreadsheet I have spent weeks compiling (will probably
spend weeks more refining). I have one set of quantities shown but
would be interested in hearing others suggestions to add or subtract
specific items. This as it stands indicates price > 140k and that
worries me because I'm sure there is at least 10k of hidden costs as
indicated by Anh and Tim. I hope this spreadsheet might be useful to
someone. If others have spreadsheets / lists such as this it would
help me greatly to see them. Where can I save money in this list... :)
Thanks,
Jim Clark
---Wishing 3 cheltons cost the same as 3 dynons...
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet |
Deems - you did a comprehensive and accurate assessment on the pursuit
towards reality cost of an RV-10. I might add that the modifications
that you made would be found by many as "Wow, I should have done that as
well". I think your review is balanced and accurate.
Tim might chime in on his final flying cost as well. Even Randy would
likely say finishing a flyable RV-10 for Jim's budget number is a long
shot. Let me acknowledge that several have done it on the cheap, but for
the lack of a nail, corners should not be cut. Choosing IFR makes the
budget an entirely different beast than the Day VFR Cruiser this was
supposed to be. Jesse could list exactly what things could be
considered to leave it "Upgradeable to IFR" well down the road.
It won't be a Cirrus but it will fit like a glove and be custom to your
needs, while still being much more fiscally realistic to operate. Take
the original VANS estimate of cost (2005 dollars), factor in the
increases in kit prices since then, add the % increase in engine cost in
just the last 36 months. Now project it out another 36 months. You
should be within 7% accurate.
John Cox
"Eyes Wide Open" through the entire process - 25% more than budget is
the norm.
#40600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:07 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet
Jim
Some things to consider adding to your list.
1. Shipping, Not just for QB, but for Empenage, Finishing, FFW,
Engine, Avionics, etc. and the 20-50 additional orders that you will
place to Van's, Aircraft Spruce, etc. (it adds up!). Easily another
$1-2k
2. Heated Pitot (IFR?) $400
3. Wiring. Harnesses; Are you going to do it yourself? Even so you will
have hundreds to thousands of dollars in wire, pins,connectors,
terminals, circuit breakers, switches, dimmers etc. Do you have the
tools to do the wiring crimpers, strippers, pin insertion/removal,
solder ? If not add at least a couple hundred more for these.
4. Replacement parts and shipping, you may be the only builder to do it
all right the 1st time, but if not you may have to purchase replacement
parts, packaging, shipping... (min several hundred $'s
5. Will you prime your aircraft? if so add cost of primer (not cheap)
and application tools. Will you paint the interior of your plane?
6. Interior? The front seats that Van's sends do not include even the
foam for cushions. Add $1k -$10k
7. Composite/fiberglass supplies epoxy, hardener, cloth, fillers,
thickeners, primers, and tools. (Fiberglass dulls/ruins metal working
tools very fast) There's more fiberglass on this kit than you would
suspect at 1st
8. Do you have an existing shop that is well equipped with tools? (e.g
2 different torque wrenches, compressor, spray gun/s, air hoses, ...),
The RV kits are just the additional tools that you will need. You should
think seriously about a pneumatic squeezer, or think about extending the
timeframe to build. There must easily be 20,000 rivets in the plane.
9. Not sure what you include in Firewall Forward accessories, but Van's
kit price exceeds your cost for this and the prop governor.
10. CHT & EGT probes and sensors and wiring harness.
12. A professional paint job After you are flying will likely cost you
at least $7-8K. and those that do it for RV's are booked a year out.
(You may be able to do it for less if you find someone locally and paint
the parts while you're building. but I talked with another builder a
couple of nights ago who went this route and it cost him $6-8k)
11. Have you considered the annual operating costs? Insurance alone will
likely run you $3-4k
When I was at a similar stage in my decision/planning process I thought
I could build and fly the plane for $129k. (that was 2 price increase
cycles ago) I've blown through that figure considerably, part of the
reason was I didn't anticipate some of the above, and the rest of the
reasons were decisions I made along the way that consciously added cost.
I think that virtually all of the people on this list will tell you that
their costs/ final estimates exceeded their original estimates by a
significantly greater margin than they originally anticipated. (I
finally got to the point where I quit updating my spreadsheet, because I
wanted to stay in a state of denial!). Just make sure that your
planning/decision process leaves some realistic contingencies available
if you miss your original budget. There's too much love and passion
that goes into building these things to see it lost/halted part way
through the process.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing FWF - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
James S. Clark IV wrote:
> Hello again all,
>
> Thanks for the responses. I have tried to combine new questions and
> responses to others questions here to save list traffic...
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | VS-1014 Question in Empennage |
After match drilling the holes of both VS-1014 with VS-1003 in the RV-10
empennage kit, I noticed that the last hole on each of the VS-1014 is too
close to the end. After countersinking, the edge of the counter sink hole
is at the end of the VS-1014.
I see three options, with the option two appearing to make the most sense to
me.
1. Leave it as is, but with the hole this close, I suspect this will
eventually crack and my cause a problem with the VS-1014 doubler down the
road.
2. Trim the VS-1014 a little shorter to remove this last hole. This would
shorten the piece about 1/4 inch.
3. There is always start over with a new part, but since this is a length
issue on a part that I didn't cut, I'm not sure I wouldn't end up in the
same boat again.
I can forward a picture if necessary.
What option would you recommend I take?
Thanks,
Bob
#40684
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: VS-1014 Question in Empennage |
Bob,
Send me a photo and which page of the plans you are on and I'll try
to help you out. I can also send you some photos of my VS construction.
-Jim 40384
Bob Leffler wrote:
>
>
>After match drilling the holes of both VS-1014 with VS-1003 in the RV-10
>empennage kit, I noticed that the last hole on each of the VS-1014 is too
>close to the end. After countersinking, the edge of the counter sink hole
>is at the end of the VS-1014.
>
>I see three options, with the option two appearing to make the most sense to
>me.
>
>1. Leave it as is, but with the hole this close, I suspect this will
>eventually crack and my cause a problem with the VS-1014 doubler down the
>road.
>
>2. Trim the VS-1014 a little shorter to remove this last hole. This would
>shorten the piece about 1/4 inch.
>
>3. There is always start over with a new part, but since this is a length
>issue on a part that I didn't cut, I'm not sure I wouldn't end up in the
>same boat again.
>
>I can forward a picture if necessary.
>
>What option would you recommend I take?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Bob
>#40684
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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I didn't realize the RV-10 list were this insensitive.
The builder died suddenly from a heart attack. Hopefully his wife isn't seeing
your posting about her husbands dream machine.
It appears the seller is trying to get out of a bad situation.
I thought the "list" was here to help. Perhaps I'm wrong, again.
Regards,
Jim Ayers
-----Original Message-----
From: jdalton77@comcast.net
Sent: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: 600HP RV-10
Hey, don't laugh. I read about a guy in a glass plane that did just that. He
didn't attach his wing attach bolts with nuts but just glassed over them. It
made for a very troubling first test flight.
Jeff
oshare
________________________________________________________________________
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: unbelievable!!! |
I certainly like to see how easy it is for some people WITHOUT ANY APPARRENT KNOWLWDGE
OF A PROJECT to be critical of another persons dream.
It's my understanding that the builder who had this RV-10 dream machine died of
a sudden heart attack.
I like your style of picking on a dead guy. NOT.
Jim Ayers
-----Original Message-----
From: johnwcox@pacificnw.com
Sent: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 5:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
"Amen."
Now imagine two adults, one a physician each investing two years and
full time. That's somewhere between 2,000 and 8,000 man-hours and all
they have to show is all of the cleco's installed. First thing that
came to mind is thank heaven they did not set any rivets.
As a favorite movie star said on the big screen to me..."A man has to
know his limitations".
I am all for improvements in safety, aesthetics, and function but trying
to turn a 92" prop with 600 BHP will increase drag by what %? Guess Ken
Scott's news article on Flutter and VNE authored by Ken Krueger needs a
second reading at bedtime tonight before my next prayers. Now this is
one kit that will need static and dynamic balancing before flight.
Did anyone learn who made the PSRU?
John Cox
the Turbanator #40600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
I think it's time we all bow our heads for a moment of silence
and perhaps a moment of prayer. "Lord please help keep this
aircraft from affecting our insurance records."
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
________________________________________________________________________
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: unbelievable!!! |
I have not made any comments about this plane. But its time. The guy
that is selling this plane did not die, his helper did. This plane
should not be built with 600 hp, I don't care if it is his dream or not.
We all make decisions about what is prudent to put in our airplanes and
thank God that our laws allow us to do that.
Those laws are based upon reasonable people attempting to
make reasonable decisions based upon sound engineering. Sometime
calculations are wrong, mistakes are made and bad things happen and
people get hurt or die. This airplane with 600 hp is not a
miscalculation, it is idiotic. Someone will get hurt or possibly someone
will die. And if enough of this idiotic product gets built, then it
jeopardizes all of us who have the freedom to build experimental
aircraft.
We all have a vested interest in experimental aircraft safety. David
O Boone. 40138
----- Original Message -----
From: lessdragprod@aol.com
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
I certainly like to see how easy it is for some people WITHOUT ANY
APPARRENT KNOWLWDGE OF A PROJECT to be critical of another persons
dream.
It's my understanding that the builder who had this RV-10 dream
machine died of a sudden heart attack.
I like your style of picking on a dead guy. NOT.
Jim Ayers
-----Original Message-----
From: johnwcox@pacificnw.com
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 5:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
"Amen."
Now imagine two adults, one a physician each investing two years and
full time. That's somewhere between 2,000 and 8,000 man-hours and all
they have to show is all of the cleco's installed. First thing that
came to mind is thank heaven they did not set any rivets.
As a favorite movie star said on the big screen to me..."A man has to
know his limitations".
I am all for improvements in safety, aesthetics, and function but trying
to turn a 92" prop with 600 BHP will increase drag by what %? Guess Ken
Scott's news article on Flutter and VNE authored by Ken Krueger needs a
second reading at bedtime tonight before my next prayers. Now this is
one kit that will need static and dynamic balancing before flight.
Did anyone learn who made the PSRU?
John Cox
the Turbanator #40600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
I think it's time we all bow our heads for a moment of silence
and perhaps a moment of prayer. "Lord please help keep this
aircraft from affecting our insurance records."
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Message 9
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| Subject: | Fuel Tank Attach Nutplates |
All,=0A I am working on the wing spars and on page 13-4 step 3 I need to
machine countersink the nutplate attach rivet holes. That's all fine and
dandy but there are two holes for the fuel tank nutplates that are too clos
e to the spar step to get the countersink in there. How have you been able
to get in there? I am sure I am missing something very obvious. Thanks i
n advance.=0A=0A--Shawn=0A40366=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A_________________________
___________________________________________________________=0AWant to start
iness.yahoo.com/r-index
Message 10
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If I got the story straight, the owner/dreamer is the seller and still
very much alive. His (the owner/sellers) "builder" is the one who passed
away. KABONG Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: lessdragprod@aol.com
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: 600HP RV-10
I didn't realize the RV-10 list were this insensitive.
The builder died suddenly from a heart attack. Hopefully his wife
isn't seeing your posting about her husbands dream machine.
It appears the seller is trying to get out of a bad situation.
I thought the "list" was here to help. Perhaps I'm wrong, again.
Regards,
Jim Ayers
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Attach Nutplates |
I just used a deburring bit (100 degree) in an electric screwdriver...
Just keep going until the rivet is flush.
Takes longer than the microstop, and you need to be careful of the
depth, but it works!
-Jim 40384
Shawn Moon wrote:
> All,
> I am working on the wing spars and on page 13-4 step 3 I need to
> machine countersink the nutplate attach rivet holes. That's all fine
> and dandy but there are two holes for the fuel tank nutplates that are
> too close to the spar step to get the countersink in there. How have
> you been able to get in there? I am sure I am missing something very
> obvious. Thanks in advance.
>
> --Shawn
> 40366
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Never Miss an Email
> Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started!
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43909/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/services?promote=mail>
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Message 12
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Hey Jim, grab a quick reality grip. I am unaware of anyone making
disparaging comments regarding Chris Opperman's untimely death or what
should be the rightful needs of his wife to rectify their joint
financial affairs.
The real issue here was the posting of a 92" custom propeller being spun
by a water-cooled, 600 horsepower, turbocharged, automotive engine with
custom PSRU (unidentified). And by the way, I do have direct
experience with the individuals who tried to solve the PSRU issues after
the EngineAir folded. It only takes a short walk down memory lane of
the loss of lives and loss of millions invested by duped builders who
were directly connected with the EngineAir fiasco. It is with the
millions of dollars of needless additional premiums that Lancair
builders/pilots today could identify with the poorly phrased posting of
an assemblage of fabricated parts as a prudent purchase. NOT. As I
said before, it is great they didn't set any rivets. If any reader is
unable to grasp VANS objection to Hot Rodding, or Ken Krueger's RVAvator
article on exceeding VNE and having an aircraft come apart "In Flight"
due to flutter, so be it. You must have liked the 3,000 liter oxygen
tank too and the ability to fly at FL250.
The RV-10 is a great kit. I believe (without aeronautical engineering
support) that some modification to the Lycoming six-cylinder engine and
propeller combination can be done safely and with prudent forethought. I
was a fan of the MT - three blades. I even watch in awe at those
considering the Subie solution. Only a fool would attempt to disregard
the safety designed into the RV-10 kit and try something as bold as a
600 hp powerplant. For the record, Chris was an A & P. Don't try this
with your future Repairman Certificate. Let's focus the lack of good
judgment on the Doctor from Idaho Falls who tried to embellish the
marketing as being a dream machine. Fortunately for the wife, $100,000
is fair compensation for clecoed parts that others can buy from VANS
tomorrow morning for much less. I would even speculate that Jesse could
get all of the parts deburred and dimpled for the difference in price.
The above statements may not be self evident to many readers so its
(IMHO). Draw your own conclusion or point out the error of this post.
Let this issue R.I.P.
John Cox
#40600
Do not Archive
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
lessdragprod@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
I certainly like to see how easy it is for some people WITHOUT ANY
APPARRENT KNOWLWDGE OF A PROJECT to be critical of another persons
dream.
It's my understanding that the builder who had this RV-10 dream machine
died of a sudden heart attack.
I like your style of picking on a dead guy. NOT.
Jim Ayers
-----Original Message-----
From: johnwcox@pacificnw.com
Sent: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 5:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
<javascript:parent.ComposeTo(> >
"Amen."
Message 13
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Mr. Ayers:
I understand your concern. We ARE trying to help!
If and when this RV-10 gets airborne with 600 hp and the design limits of
the airframe are exceeded, it will crash. This crash will cause the death
of those aboard. It's quite simple. We do not want to see this happen.
Please research and understand the design limits of this aircraft before you
criticize this list and its members for being insensitive.
I could go on, but I'll leave it at this: You're way off base!
Mike Doble
Builder 40691
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
lessdragprod@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: 600HP RV-10
I didn't realize the RV-10 list were this insensitive.
The builder died suddenly from a heart attack. Hopefully his wife isn't
seeing your posting about her husbands dream machine.
It appears the seller is trying to get out of a bad situation.
I thought the "list" was here to help. Perhaps I'm wrong, again.
Regards,
Jim Ayers
-----Original Message-----
From: jdalton77@comcast.net
Sent: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: 600HP RV-10
Hey, don't laugh. I read about a guy in a glass plane that did just that.
He didn't attach his wing attach bolts with nuts but just glassed over them.
It made for a very troubling first test flight.
Jeff
oshare
_____
size=2 width="100%" align=center>
Message 14
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| Subject: | VS-1014 Question in Empennage |
Are you referring to the top hole on each piece? If so, are you machine
countersinking the VS-1014 or the VS-1003. The hole that need to be
countersunk are the VS-1003 to accept a dimple in the skin for the head of
the 426AD3 rivet. If you countersunk the VS-1014, then I may recommend
getting it replaced and countersinking the hold on the spar with the new one
in place. If this is the case, then you should talk to Van's, but that part
can't be too expensive.
If you did countersink the hold in the VS-1003 and the countersink reaches
to the edge of the VS-1014, then I would recommend shortening it and using
an OOPS rivet in that hole because it is bigger because of the countersink
in the spar.
If you are talking about the bottom hole, then that shouldn't need a
countersink because that gets the 470AD3 rivet if I'm not mistaken.
If I am looking at the wrong part, then ignore this and give me an
electronic slap to straighten me up.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:49 PM
Subject: RV10-List: VS-1014 Question in Empennage
After match drilling the holes of both VS-1014 with VS-1003 in the RV-10
empennage kit, I noticed that the last hole on each of the VS-1014 is too
close to the end. After countersinking, the edge of the counter sink hole
is at the end of the VS-1014.
I see three options, with the option two appearing to make the most sense to
me.
1. Leave it as is, but with the hole this close, I suspect this will
eventually crack and my cause a problem with the VS-1014 doubler down the
road.
2. Trim the VS-1014 a little shorter to remove this last hole. This would
shorten the piece about 1/4 inch.
3. There is always start over with a new part, but since this is a length
issue on a part that I didn't cut, I'm not sure I wouldn't end up in the
same boat again.
I can forward a picture if necessary.
What option would you recommend I take?
Thanks,
Bob
#40684
Message 15
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In all fairness to the seller, he is offering to sell the kit without the
engine for $80,000 as the listing states. What I am missing, then, is where
all of the added value is. The amount of time put into a project adds very
little value beyond the amount of work that has actually been done. If you
guess that the kit and add-ons from Van's he has already are worth $40,000,
then what gives it the other $40,000 in value? Are there avionics? Does he
even have the stock engine mount, cowling, etc? These are unknowns, but
just because somebody claims to have spent $187,000 or whatever it was,
doesn't mean much. Again, I add to JC's comments about the V8-powered
Lancair with the PSRU issues (among many other things). I had N450HP (or
something like that) sitting in my hangar for about a year. They had, as I
recall, $600,000 invested in a plane that can't fly without the ever-missing
engine computer. The best thing that owner can do it take that engine off
and pay the price to have an IO-550 installed so he can fly/sell the plane.
Is it worth anything near the $600,000 invested? I submit that it is not,
especially as a non-flying, airplane-look-alike hangar space-taker-upper
(Oh, I am enjoying this word-inventing). Anyway, it may be a deal at
$80,000 without the engine and prop, depending on what is included. Can it
be finished in a month as was claimed? NOT IN YOUR WILDEST DREAMS! Will it
ever fly with that engine? I DOUBT IT! Can the buyer buy it? ABSOLUTELY,
as it's his money! I just hope the buyer gets it without the engine and
tries to complete a reasonable project with an IO-540 (or Subie or Innodyn -
not that those are anywhere near in the same ballpark - OK, just 'or
Subie').
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 4:11 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
Hey Jim, grab a quick reality grip. I am unaware of anyone making
disparaging comments regarding Chris Opperman's untimely death or what
should be the rightful needs of his wife to rectify their joint financial
affairs.
The real issue here was the posting of a 92" custom propeller being spun by
a water-cooled, 600 horsepower, turbocharged, automotive engine with custom
PSRU (unidentified). And by the way, I do have direct experience with the
individuals who tried to solve the PSRU issues after the EngineAir folded.
It only takes a short walk down memory lane of the loss of lives and loss of
millions invested by duped builders who were directly connected with the
EngineAir fiasco. It is with the millions of dollars of needless additional
premiums that Lancair builders/pilots today could identify with the poorly
phrased posting of an assemblage of fabricated parts as a prudent purchase.
NOT. As I said before, it is great they didn't set any rivets. If any
reader is unable to grasp VANS objection to Hot Rodding, or Ken Krueger's
RVAvator article on exceeding VNE and having an aircraft come apart "In
Flight" due to flutter, so be it. You must have liked the 3,000 liter
oxygen tank too and the ability to fly at FL250.
The RV-10 is a great kit. I believe (without aeronautical engineering
support) that some modification to the Lycoming six-cylinder engine and
propeller combination can be done safely and with prudent forethought. I was
a fan of the MT - three blades. I even watch in awe at those considering the
Subie solution. Only a fool would attempt to disregard the safety designed
into the RV-10 kit and try something as bold as a 600 hp powerplant. For the
record, Chris was an A & P. Don't try this with your future Repairman
Certificate. Let's focus the lack of good judgment on the Doctor from Idaho
Falls who tried to embellish the marketing as being a dream machine.
Fortunately for the wife, $100,000 is fair compensation for clecoed parts
that others can buy from VANS tomorrow morning for much less. I would even
speculate that Jesse could get all of the parts deburred and dimpled for the
difference in price.
The above statements may not be self evident to many readers so its (IMHO).
Draw your own conclusion or point out the error of this post.
Let this issue R.I.P.
John Cox
#40600
Do not Archive
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
lessdragprod@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
I certainly like to see how easy it is for some people WITHOUT ANY APPARRENT
KNOWLWDGE OF A PROJECT to be critical of another persons dream.
It's my understanding that the builder who had this RV-10 dream machine died
of a sudden heart attack.
I like your style of picking on a dead guy. NOT.
Jim Ayers
-----Original Message-----
From: johnwcox@pacificnw.com
Sent: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 5:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
<javascript:parent.ComposeTo(> >
"Amen."
Message 16
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Wow....I can't believe all the banter about these planes from literally
everyone who has little to NO knowledge themselves. It seems even Jims
"understanding" is just flat wrong. The facts are:
Predator Aviation was building a custom plane called the "Kymera 750" (aka
an RV-10 with a 700+somethingth hp engine) and also the Kymera 440.
They Kymera "750" was priced/sold around $300K and the "440" was around
$200K.
They had to call them a new plane, because Predator Aviation themselves got
in trouble selling/advertising turnkey RV-10's (The FAA got in the middle of
it some time ago).
Predator Aviation/Chris Opperman sold TWO "Kymera 750's or 440's" to
individuals who BOTH paid a LOT of money (we're talking hundreds of
thousands of $$'s here).
Incidentally, both of the buyers / customers are doctors - I know one of
them very well and just met the other after this whole debacle. I was
building the panel for one of the customers and the other was being built by
Predator (supposedly).
Chris ordered avionis from me for "both" planes.
Predator Aviation constantly send updates to both "customers" complete with
pictures, progress reports, etc.. on BOTH planes.
Both customers truly believed that each of them was having a plane built by
Opperman and relied on his "progress reports" of newly clecoed together
pieces as proof of progress.
Both customers previous to his "death" last year did not know each other.
Both customers didn't spend time on site.
Both customers found out after Oppermans death that in fact there was only
ONE airplane, and an incomplete one at that.
Both customers fought over who's plane it was (since both of them had paid a
LOT OF $$'s for their plane).
The "Kymera 750 or 440" was promised to be a super fast, super structurally
modified (Chris told me many times personally about all his "engineering"
modifications to the airplane that made it so different from an RV-10).
Quote from their sales brochure says "Airframe Reinforced for high payload".
This whole thing was/is a bloody mess with both guys losing a ton of money.
Look at the Predator Aviation website if you want the details. They claimed:
274mph cruise, 2400 nm range, 1850lb usefull load, 120gal fuel capacity and
750+ hp turbocharged engine.
The only sad thing here is that the current owner of the kit was so ignorant
(who in the world honestly thinks that plane is even remotely done). The
fact is there is about 2% of work done on that plane.....I don't think the
guy is stupid, just one of the most ignorant people I've ever met. Who
thinks they have 9" GRT displays, or a 92" prop, or an 80% completed
airplane that's barely unpacked from the crate?!?!?!? I feel bad for anyone
that now falls for those lies or plain ignorance (I don't know which), just
like the original two owners fell for Oppermans lies.
As far as picking on a Dead Guy, well.....it turns out he wasn't the most
ethical, moral, or honest person in the world when it came to customers and
business. We all may wonder how in the world people get involved in things
like that, and at the time of his supposed death when I found out all the
nasty details from both customers I thought - - "Who would send that much
money without getting anything back, etc.. or checking in constantly".
Then, I find myself losing hundreds of thousands of $$'s myself in the
middle of this D2A/Chelton debacle and I see how easy it is to end up on the
receiving end of bad deals.
Just my 2 cents as usual! Sorry if anyone gets offended, but it seems like
I've seen lots banter here with little to no first hand knowledge of the
situation.
Cheers,
Stein.
P.S., I've attached a copy of their sales brochure (if it makes it) for your
review. Chris actually thought I'd be crazy enough to try and "resell"
these things for him...!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
lessdragprod@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:00 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
I certainly like to see how easy it is for some people WITHOUT ANY
APPARRENT KNOWLWDGE OF A PROJECT to be critical of another persons dream.
It's my understanding that the builder who had this RV-10 dream machine
died of a sudden heart attack.
I like your style of picking on a dead guy. NOT.
Jim Ayers
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: unbelievable!!! |
I think that the tipoff that this *might* be BS is the 2500 mile range
with 120 gallons, economy cruise of around 225mph. With these numbers,
that means over 11 hour endurance, which equates to *10GPH fuel burn on
a 700+HP engine. *
As Scotty says: "You cannot change the laws of physics!" Doctors you
say? Must be Psychology.... You just can't make this stuff up...
-Jim
SteinAir, Inc. wrote:
> Wow....I can't believe all the banter about these planes from
> literally everyone who has little to NO knowledge themselves. It
> seems even Jims "understanding" is just flat wrong. The facts are:
>
> Predator Aviation was building a custom plane called the "Kymera 750"
> (aka an RV-10 with a 700+somethingth hp engine) and also the Kymera 440.
>
> They Kymera "750" was priced/sold around $300K and the "440" was
> around $200K.
>
> They had to call them a new plane, because Predator Aviation
> themselves got in trouble selling/advertising turnkey RV-10's (The FAA
> got in the middle of it some time ago).
>
> Predator Aviation/Chris Opperman sold TWO "Kymera 750's or 440's" to
> individuals who BOTH paid a LOT of money (we're talking hundreds of
> thousands of $$'s here).
>
> Incidentally, both of the buyers / customers are doctors - I know one
> of them very well and just met the other after this whole debacle. I
> was building the panel for one of the customers and the other was
> being built by Predator (supposedly).
>
> Chris ordered avionis from me for "both" planes.
>
> Predator Aviation constantly send updates to both "customers" complete
> with pictures, progress reports, etc.. on BOTH planes.
>
> Both customers truly believed that each of them was having a plane
> built by Opperman and relied on his "progress reports" of newly
> clecoed together pieces as proof of progress.
>
> Both customers previous to his "death" last year did not know each other.
>
> Both customers didn't spend time on site.
>
> Both customers found out after Oppermans death that in fact there was
> only ONE airplane, and an incomplete one at that.
>
> Both customers fought over who's plane it was (since both of them had
> paid a LOT OF $$'s for their plane).
>
> The "Kymera 750 or 440" was promised to be a super fast, super
> structurally modified (Chris told me many times personally about all
> his "engineering" modifications to the airplane that made it so
> different from an RV-10).
>
> Quote from their sales brochure says "Airframe Reinforced for high
> payload".
>
> This whole thing was/is a bloody mess with both guys losing a ton of
> money. Look at the Predator Aviation website if you want the
> details. They claimed: 274mph cruise, 2400 nm range, 1850lb usefull
> load, 120gal fuel capacity and 750+ hp turbocharged engine.
>
> The only sad thing here is that the current owner of the kit was so
> ignorant (who in the world honestly thinks that plane is even remotely
> done). The fact is there is about 2% of work done on that plane.....I
> don't think the guy is stupid, just one of the most ignorant people
> I've ever met. Who thinks they have 9" GRT displays, or a 92" prop,
> or an 80% completed airplane that's barely unpacked from the
> crate?!?!?!? I feel bad for anyone that now falls for those lies or
> plain ignorance (I don't know which), just like the original two
> owners fell for Oppermans lies.
>
> As far as picking on a Dead Guy, well.....it turns out he wasn't the
> most ethical, moral, or honest person in the world when it came
> to customers and business. We all may wonder how in the world people
> get involved in things like that, and at the time of his supposed
> death when I found out all the nasty details from both customers I
> thought - - "Who would send that much money without getting anything
> back, etc.. or checking in constantly".
>
> Then, I find myself losing hundreds of thousands of $$'s myself in the
> middle of this D2A/Chelton debacle and I see how easy it is to end up
> on the receiving end of bad deals.
>
> Just my 2 cents as usual! Sorry if anyone gets offended, but it seems
> like I've seen lots banter here with little to no first hand knowledge
> of the situation.
>
> Cheers,
> Stein.
>
> P.S., I've attached a copy of their sales brochure (if it makes it)
> for your review. Chris actually thought I'd be crazy enough to try
> and "resell" these things for him...!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]*On Behalf Of*
> lessdragprod@aol.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:00 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
>
> I certainly like to see how easy it is for some people WITHOUT ANY
> APPARRENT KNOWLWDGE OF A PROJECT to be critical of another persons
> dream.
>
> It's my understanding that the builder who had this RV-10 dream
> machine died of a sudden heart attack.
>
> I like your style of picking on a dead guy. NOT.
>
> Jim Ayers
>
Message 18
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Anybody been following "The 18-Day Sportsman" series in Kitplanes? I was
just reading the March 2007 issue where he talks about the total cost. He's
got $180,000 invested (and the TWT folks will have more in it to get to
where he is) and says that he combined the back "seats" into one so his wife
would have more headroom in the middle of the back. Anybody wish they were
investing their $180,000-200,000 in a 2+1 Sportsman? Good choices going
with the -10.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet |
Jim,
I am in Richmond. You are welcome to come down and look our 10 over.
John Testement
jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
FWF, engine, wiring
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S. Clark IV
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 12:04 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet
Hello again all,
Thanks for the responses. I have tried to combine new questions and
responses to others questions here to save list traffic...
Research is the best part of getting ready for this...I'll bet I already
have 300-400 hours and only a DVD from Vans purchased so far...
Jesse-Thanks, I appreciate the advice to save on the panel at first.
I'll work on trimming that to a minimal IFR platform with glass that can be
grown without buying anything in panel that later gets out-ed by something
else.
Kelly-Thanks, the 32k already included the TruTrak digiflight-II VSGV and a
Garmin 496 in the airgizmo mount.
Russ-Actually, I was looking at 3 screen Horizon 1 with 2x AHRS (I'm a timid
IFR pilot who likes backup). Although this is what I have spending the most
time looking at recently...no matter how much I read the cross connects and
interconnects in the GRT documentation, I can't get a clear picture of how
it would work with: (Horizon1 GRTSport Horizon1) as you have it. Doesn't
that limit the HSI from being on the 2nd screen where you want it? I'll
probably have lots more questions for you to help me in this area in the
coming weeks.
Please tell me what is overkill and what makes sense: 3 Horizon (each with a
5H WAAS GPS) & 2 separate AHRS? I see now that you can buy a second AHRS one
in the same box for only 1500. Is this any less redundant? Your panel has
been one of my "mentors" :). Why did you choose the sport & the middle
location instead of position #3 for the sport? Thanks. If I get 2 of the
Horizon1's each with internal WAAS 5Hz GPS, I assume I have to run 2
antennas. 3 internal gps's would probably be nuts right?
Jeff- I'm located in northern VA.
Crazy ebay ad: Noticed the RV7 N-Number of ad posters neighbor/friend is
also visible in last picture in ad: N577AZ has address near individual you
listed so I think your little investigative work is correct.
Attached is a spreadsheet I have spent weeks compiling (will probably spend
weeks more refining). I have one set of quantities shown but would be
interested in hearing others suggestions to add or subtract specific items.
This as it stands indicates price > 140k and that worries me because I'm
sure there is at least 10k of hidden costs as indicated by Anh and Tim. I
hope this spreadsheet might be useful to someone. If others have
spreadsheets / lists such as this it would help me greatly to see them.
Where can I save money in this list... :)
Thanks,
Jim Clark
---Wishing 3 cheltons cost the same as 3 dynons...
--
--
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: unbelievable!!! |
Hi Stein,
Opinions are like belly buttons. Everyone has one.
Jim Ayers
Build more - Type less.
In a message dated 02/11/2007 3:59:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
stein@steinair.com writes:
Wow....I can't believe all the banter about these planes from literally
everyone who has little to NO knowledge themselves. It seems even Jims
"understanding" is just flat wrong.
(Stuff Cut)
Just my 2 cents as usual! Sorry if anyone gets offended, but it seems like
I've seen lots banter here with little to no first hand knowledge of the
situation.
Cheers,
Stein.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Attach Nutplates |
That is what I was thinking about. Thought there might be a better way to
do it but I guess not. Thanks for the reply.=0A=0A--Shawn=0A40366=0A=0A---
-- Original Message ----=0AFrom: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>=0ATo: rv10-lis
t@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:07:17 PM=0ASubject: Re:
RV10-List: Fuel Tank Attach Nutplates=0A=0A--> RV10-List message posted by
: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>=0A=0AI just used a deburring bit (100 degree)
in an electric screwdriver... =0AJust keep going until the rivet is flush
.=0A=0ATakes longer than the microstop, and you need to be careful of the
=0Adepth, but it works!=0A=0A-Jim 40384=0A=0AShawn Moon wrote:=0A=0A> All,
=0A> I am working on the wing spars and on page 13-4 step 3 I need to
=0A> machine countersink the nutplate attach rivet holes. That's all fine
=0A> and dandy but there are two holes for the fuel tank nutplates that are
=0A> too close to the spar step to get the countersink in there. How have
=0A> you been able to get in there? I am sure I am missing something very
=0A> obvious. Thanks in advance.=0A>=0A> --Shawn=0A> 40366=0A>=0A> ------
------------------------------------------------------------------=0A> Neve
r Miss an Email=0A> Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get sta
rted! =0A> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43909/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/ser
===================0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A___________________________________________________________
_________________________=0AIt's here! Your new message! =0AGet new email
alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.=0Ahttp://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolba
r/features/mail/
Message 22
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| Subject: | Fuel Tank Attach Nutplates |
You could also just put the countersink bit in the deburring bit holder
(depending on which one you have), which makes a better countersink than the
deburring bit because it tends to wander and the countersink bit stays
centered.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shawn Moon
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Attach Nutplates
That is what I was thinking about. Thought there might be a better way to
do it but I guess not. Thanks for the reply.
--Shawn
40366
----- Original Message ----
From: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:07:17 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Attach Nutplates
I just used a deburring bit (100 degree) in an electric screwdriver...
Just keep going until the rivet is flush.
Takes longer than the microstop, and you need to be careful of the
depth, but it works!
-Jim 40384
Shawn Moon wrote:
> All,
> I am working on the wing spars and on page 13-4 step 3 I need to
> machine countersink the nutplate attach rivet holes. That's all fine
> and dandy but there are two holes for the fuel tank nutplates that are
> too close to the spar step to get the countersink in there. How have
> you been able to get in there? I am sure I am missing something very
> obvious. Thanks in advance.
>
> --Shawn
> 40366
>
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See all the new
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Message 23
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You're absolutely right, bellybuttons are prevalent, but
Opinions based on fact seem to be in short supply..(just my ill informed
opinion)
I find myself strangely curious as to the different takes on the
many subjects touched on in this group.
I really don't mind the banter; I have a quick delete finger. But, I really
appreciate when someone steps up and clears the air. In this case its Stein,
But I tip my hat to all contributors who educate, inform, and entertain on a
daily basis.
Steve d
40205
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
LessDragProd@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
Hi Stein,
Opinions are like belly buttons. Everyone has one.
Jim Ayers
Build more - Type less.
In a message dated 02/11/2007 3:59:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
stein@steinair.com writes:
Wow....I can't believe all the banter about these planes from literally
everyone who has little to NO knowledge themselves. It seems even Jims
"understanding" is just flat wrong.
(Stuff Cut)
Just my 2 cents as usual! Sorry if anyone gets offended, but it seems like
I've seen lots banter here with little to no first hand knowledge of the
situation.
Cheers,
Stein.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Electrical System Critique |
Thank you Tim, Larry, Jesse, and Carl for you inputs.
My guess is that there are a lot of us deliberating the numerous options and
trade offs on the electrical system. I would like to encourage us to get a
useful dialog going to sort through the pros and cons of the various
approaches.
Based on what I have learned, I have changed my approach considerably. I
have attached my new design as well as the old design (as a PDF for those
who could not open it before). Let's continue to critique the approach for
everyone's benefit.
Tim made some really good points about having independent power (not on the
cranking battery) to the Cheltons, Eng. Monitor and Elect. Ignition for
engine start. This caused me to drop the idea of having a 2nd battery
available for cranking and use the second battery for start-up avionics and
Ebus backup. The main changes I have made are:
I am going with one large main battery - Odyssey 925, 25AH; and a smaller
12AH auxiliary battery (much like Tim's).
During engine start I will run the Ebus (PFD, Eng Mon and E Ign) off of the
Aux battery while cranking from the main battery. After start, I will turn
off the Ebus alternate feed, turn on the Avionics switch, and run everything
off the main battery. I will run the E Ign. off the aux battery (everything
is really running off the alternator during flight anyway).
I have moved the pitot heat and the fuel boost pump to the main bus.
If the alternator fails I will switch to the Ebus alt feed, manually load
shed the main bus (most loads are on switches anyway). And if I need fuel
boost or pitot, I can turn the main bus back on. The only downside is if the
main battery fails I can only power the Ebus from the aux battery.
I took the contactor off the aux battery since the load is under 15A and a
contactor would draw 1A during an emergency. I don't have an Aux battery
switch (other than the Ebus alt feed switch) since I can't think of a need
for one. The Aux battery will be charged through a diode to the main bus and
the E. Ign is tied through a breaker.
I put the Eng. Monitor on the Ebus since it will be on during start up. I
will be using the AFS3400 which gives me full EFIS back up with its own
internal battery.
Some concerns and questions: I am running #8 from the alternator to the main
bus. The wire size chart (AC43.13) says a #8 wire is good for 70A at 10ft.
Others are using #6 to go from alternator to the main bus. Do I have a
problem?
Should I put the smaller aux battery under the flap tunnel or next to the
main battery for W&B? What is a good/light 12AH battery?
Is the Ebus diode really needed in this design?
Should the main battery be grounded locally as well as running to the
firewall?
Let me know what you think and contribute any ideas for the benefit of all
the others who are working through their designs.
John Testement
jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
FWF, engine, wiring
--
Message 25
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Jesse Saint wrote:
> Anybody been following The 18-Day Sportsman series in Kitplanes? I
> was just reading the March 2007 issue where he talks about the total
> cost. Hes got $180,000 invested (and the TWT folks will have more in
> it to get to where he is) and says that he combined the back seats
> into one so his wife would have more headroom in the middle of the
> back. Anybody wish they were investing their $180,000-200,000 in a 2+1
> Sportsman? Good choices going with the -10.
A VFR Sportsman in the Two Weeks to Taxi program is $145k. You can see
a complete list of prices at:
<http://www.glasairaviation.com/pdf/pricing/SportsmanTwoWeekstoTaxiOrderFormEffectiveJanuary8_2007.pdf>
A close approximation in the certified world is a Cessna 182 at between
two to three time the cost, so the price seems fairly reasonable
considering you could literally be flying the airplane within a few
weeks of purchasing it. You can build the Sportsman for a lot less if
you want to do it the traditional way. From reading Marc's articles, he
went with some of the more expensive options, like the Lyc IO-390 engine
and IFR avionics, and as we all know it is not hard to add another $35k
into our toys. :-)
The RV-10 and the Sportsman are really designed for completely
different missions, so I'm not really sure how much of a fair comparison
there is between them. I've test flown both the Sportsman and the
RV-10, and both have excellent flying characteristics, but are very
different airplanes. The RV-10 is a great cross country traveling
machine that travels very fast and can carry 4 people comfortably, and
the Sportsman is a great bush-type airplane good for rough, short
landing strips but still has a decent cruise speed of about 140 kts, and
can carry 300 lbs of baggage, or can have a small rear seat that holds 2
people shorter than about 5'5 (the folding wings structure limits the
headroom in the rear). Which plane you choose depends on what you want
to do with it...
My half cents, for what it is worth...
-Dj
do not archive
Message 26
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Then again there's is the Murphy MOOSE...(one of our EAA members is building
one at APV. 8*) KABONG Do Not Archive (pronounced MOOOTH in these
here parts.)
Subject: Re: RV10-List: 2+How many?
>
> Jesse Saint wrote:
>> back. Anybody wish they were investing their $180,000-200,000 in a 2+1
>> Sportsman? Good choices going with the -10.
>
> A VFR Sportsman in the Two Weeks to Taxi program is $145k. You can see
> a complete list of prices at:
> <http://www.glasairaviation.com/pdf/pricing/SportsmanTwoWeekstoTaxiOrderFormEffectiveJanuary8_2007.pdf>
>
> A close approximation in the certified world is a Cessna 182 at between
> two to three time the cost, so the price seems fairly reasonable
> considering you could literally be flying the airplane within a few
> weeks of purchasing it. >
>The RV-10 and the Sportsman are really designed for completely
> different missions, so I'm not really sure how much of a fair comparison
> there is between them.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Critique |
Reply below
John Testement wrote:
> Thank you Tim, Larry, Jesse, and Carl for you inputs.
>
> My guess is that there are a lot of us deliberating the numerous options and
> trade offs on the electrical system. I would like to encourage us to get a
> useful dialog going to sort through the pros and cons of the various
> approaches.
>
I think I have considered every different type electrical design. It
went something like this: Dual alternator single battery, single
alternator dual battery, duel alternator duel battery, then back to a
dual alternator single battery design, which is where I am now. An now
with your comments I am considering a small battery just for start up.
My plan was to use the internal battery in the AFS-3400 to run the
engine monitor during start. All other avionics off.
> Based on what I have learned, I have changed my approach considerably. I
> have attached my new design as well as the old design (as a PDF for those
> who could not open it before). Let's continue to critique the approach for
> everyone's benefit.
>
> .....
>
> If the alternator fails I will switch to the Ebus alt feed,
Shut off the master battery contactor?
> manually load shed the main bus (most loads are on switches anyway).
And then turn on the master battery contactor to use the main battery
and the standby battery?
> And if I need fuel
> boost or pitot, I can turn the main bus back on. The only downside is if the
> main battery fails I can only power the Ebus from the aux battery.
>
If you do lose the main battery, won't the alternator still supply
power, although in may not be a stable?
> ...
>
> Some concerns and questions: I am running #8 from the alternator to the main
> bus. The wire size chart (AC43.13) says a #8 wire is good for 70A at 10ft.
> Others are using #6 to go from alternator to the main bus. Do I have a
> problem?
>
I am using AC 43.13-1B Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices -
Aircraft Inspection and Repair table 11-3 DC wire and circuit protector
chart. It recommends 8AWG up to 50 amp fuse or breaker and 6AWG for an
80amp breaker and 70amp fuse. But, I am sure the devil is in the
details. 11-49 says, "... This chart was prepared for the conditions
specified.... In general, the chart is conservative for all ordinary
aircraft electrical installations" However Table 11-9 Current carrying
capacity and resistance of copper wire. Figure 11-2 does say 8AWG wire
and 70 amps. Since the continuous load is not 60 amps I would think
8AWG is not a problem. That being said I am using 6AWG. I would like
to know more about the details.
> Should I put the smaller aux battery under the flap tunnel or next to the
> main battery for W&B? What is a good/light 12AH battery?
> Is the Ebus diode really needed in this design?
If you find one let me know
>
> Should the main battery be grounded locally as well as running to the
> firewall?
>
>
I think this would give more problems with ground loops.
> Let me know what you think and contribute any ideas for the benefit of all
> the others who are working through their designs.
>
> John Testement
> jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
> 40321
> Richmond, VA
> FWF, engine, wiring
>
>
>
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