Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:52 AM - unbelievable!!! (Russell Daves)
2. 05:12 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Question (Michael Schipper)
3. 05:49 AM - Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve (steveadams)
4. 07:08 AM - Re: factory built RVs (wasRe: unbelievable!!!) (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
5. 07:16 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Question (Kelly McMullen)
6. 09:05 AM - Re: Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve (Sam Marlow)
7. 09:30 AM - Re: unbelievable!!! (Eric Ekberg)
8. 09:57 AM - Re: factory built RVs (wasRe: unbelievable!!!) (James K Hovis)
9. 10:32 AM - Re: factory built RVs (wasRe: unbelievable!!!) (Deems Davis)
10. 10:56 AM - Re: unbelievable!!! (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
11. 11:35 AM - Re: unbelievable!!! (William Curtis)
12. 11:46 AM - Re: unbelievable!!! (Niko)
13. 12:36 PM - Re: unbelievable!!! (Mark Ritter)
14. 01:24 PM - Sun-N-Fun (Jesse Saint)
15. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve (Chris Johnston)
16. 05:13 PM - Re: Sun-N-Fun (Bill DeRouchey)
17. 05:26 PM - Re: factory built RVs (wasRe: unbelievable!!!) (John W. Cox)
18. 06:02 PM - Re: unbelievable!!! (John W. Cox)
19. 06:28 PM - Re: unbelievable!!! (John W. Cox)
20. 06:33 PM - Re: Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve (Michael Schipper)
21. 06:48 PM - Re: Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve (Larry Rosen)
22. 07:04 PM - Re: Sun-N-Fun (David Maib)
23. 07:45 PM - Re: Sun-N-Fun (Jesse Saint)
24. 08:37 PM - Re: Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve (Patrick Pulis)
25. 09:34 PM - Oil access pannel (Paul Walter)
26. 10:26 PM - Re: Re: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet (Robin Marks)
27. 11:14 PM - Re: Sec 12: Empennage Fairings (jerry petersen)
Message 1
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While I have strong feelings against those people who have
commercialized the RV building process to the point that they are
finding a buyer and then custom building an RV from start to finish for
a particular buyer I have no issue with builders who buy a kit and build
it to the stage of being ready to hang an engine, install a panel and do
the interior and then sell the kit OR agree to finish out the kit for
someone else to buy.
The FAA rule is not violated in any way, shape or form if the intent of
the builder is to build the kit for education or recreation and that
includes missionaries in Ecuador who are helping to educate new
Christians to aircraft building. I currently am helping complete an
RV-8 kit that another builder spent years getting it within 10% of being
ready for the engine, panel, interior. There is no doubt that the
original builder was doing it for education and/or recreation and the
FAA rule does not forbid the compellation from this stage by others
helping. If so, all the panel builders, interior builders, and engine
builders would have to shut down.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Russ Daves
N710RV - Flying RV-10
N65RV - RV-6A Sold (After 70% of RV-10 built)
To add to the mix, I have a friend who is retired and he had built 6 or
7
RV-6 and -7's because he enjoys doing it and needs something to
do. He
doesn't make much on them, but he keeps building because he enjoys
it. He
builds planes because he can, but I don't think he is abusing the
rules. He
is doing it as recreation, which definitely fits within the intent
and
letter of the law. The litmus test that you mention would
obviously cause
him unjust problems.
I know some of you are pointing your finger at me without knowing
what we
really are doing. That's fine.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Question |
Thanks everyone for the help. I guess the rubber gasket and ProSeal
is redundant, so I will probably just go ahead and ProSeal those
suckers in without the rubber seal.
Mike Schipper
#40576 - Wings - www.rvten.com
do not archive
On Feb 13, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Niko wrote:
> The advice I received at that stage was to use the rubber gasket
> and also apply ProSeal. The fuel tank design is similar to what
> Piper has and I know of an A&P who only used the gasket with no
> ProSeal in his Piper and has no leaks. I used both, however, if I
> had to do it over I would only use the rubber gasket, as this
> avoids having to clean up the proseal if you ever have to replace
> the sending unit.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve |
http://www.asapmachineryrepair.com/airvalves2.htm
I put a similar 3 port valve in my panel. It is simple, accessible, and easy to
use.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94958#94958
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: unbelievable!!!) |
That is good news. If you have time, let us know when you have
signoff by the feds and how the process went. I've said it before, I at
least respect the intentions that you have in doing this as part of your
mission. But turnkey is turnkey regardless of intentions. It is very
good to hear you are working with the feds.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:20 PM
Subject: RE: factory built RVs (wasRe: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!)
My point exactly. Thanks. I think it's a great program and a fantastic
example of the best of both worlds. Yes, the builder builds enough to
safely be the builder/maintainer of the airplane. Not only this, but he
is
taught things in the program that he might not be taught elsewhere that
will
benefit him in maintenance. This opens the world of experimental
aviation
to more people than those who have the 2,000 hours to put into a build
project, and it makes them much safer, IMHO, than many of the Cessna
drivers
out there who don't know a bolt from a rivet or a cylinder from a sump.
For
those who want to know, that is exactly what Saint Aviation is doing
with
the -10. We are working on the blessing part now.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: factory built RVs (wasRe: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!)
Jesse Saint wrote:
<jesse@saintaviation.com>
>
> Enter the "Two Weeks to Taxi" program.
...which falls under the "FAA blessed 'builder assistance
centers'".
The FAA has physically inspected the operation at the Glasair Aviation
facility and approved the TWT program.
I've personally talked to a Sportsman builder that lives nearby
that
went through the program. It is a VERY busy program, but there is no
question in his mind (or in mine after talking to him) that the builder
does more than 51% of the operations required by the FAA, and it is well
documented so there should not be any problem obtaining the repairman
certificate.
I was seriously considering the TWT program at one time, and did
a
lot
of personal research on it. There may be some "questionable" builder
assist centers out there, but I don't think the TWT program is one of
them.
-Dj
--
1:23 PM
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Question |
Given that I have had the "pleasure" of removing and repairing Proseal
in my Mooney tanks, I'd suggest you consider just the opposite. Use
the rubber gasket. Fuel sending units do fail and do need replacement,
and you will regret having them bonded in with Proseal when you have
to remove them. I suppose one alternative would be to use the
non-hardening version of Proseal that Mooney specifies for the
inspection covers of the fuel tanks if you have concerns about the
gasket. Gaskets are easy to replace. Proseal is a PITA to remove and
replace. JMHO having done repair work with the stuff.
On 2/14/07, Michael Schipper <mike@learningplanet.com> wrote:
> Thanks everyone for the help. I guess the rubber gasket and ProSeal is
> redundant, so I will probably just go ahead and ProSeal those suckers in
> without the rubber seal.
>
> Mike Schipper
> #40576 - Wings - www.rvten.com
>
> do not archive
>
>
> On Feb 13, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Niko wrote:
> The advice I received at that stage was to use the rubber gasket and also
> apply ProSeal. The fuel tank design is similar to what Piper has and I know
> of an A&P who only used the gasket with no ProSeal in his Piper and has no
> leaks. I used both, however, if I had to do it over I would only use the
> rubber gasket, as this avoids having to clean up the proseal if you ever
> have to replace the sending unit.
>
> - The RV10-List Email Forum -
> to browse
> Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> much more:
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> the Web Forums!
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve |
To bad they need a $75.00 min order. Looks like a good solutin to the
alternate air problem.
steveadams wrote:
>
> http://www.asapmachineryrepair.com/airvalves2.htm
>
> I put a similar 3 port valve in my panel. It is simple, accessible, and easy
to use.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94958#94958
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: unbelievable!!! |
Who/where in Oklahoma? Thanks
-Eric
do not archive
On 2/13/07, John W. Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you for respectfully withdrawing your observation. The RV-10 is
> being mass produced in South Africa, Russian, the P.I., Central America
> and yes in Oklahoma. The loophole has a truck running through it and the
> FAA has convened a committee to close the door or give approval on those
> current actions. Your answer will be forthcoming quite soon.
>
>
> Just a rhetorical question for the masses. Just how many RV-10s beyond
> ONE should a builder be allowed to complete before the group yells "Foul"
?
> I guess the silence is a compelling answer.
>
>
> The "For hire" boys are alive and well buying RV-10 kits.
>
>
> Here is the final question. Who finds it inappropriate for a manufacture
r
> to ship a second, third, fourth or fifth kit to those repeat builders?
>
>
> Bill, you should be hearing soon from a few of those builders (predators)
> about their product offering.
>
>
> *John Cox*
> *#40600*
>
>
> Do not Archive
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *William Condon
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:00 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
>
>
> Given that the below is all true, one cannot have any sympathy for the tw
o
> doctors involved or the former owner of the company. Not only did were t
he
> doctors displaying an unbelievable level of foolishness (by giving away h
uge
> sums of money to a possible crook), but they were directly threatening th
e
> experimental building community, as a whole.
>
>
> I say that because this apparently involved the 'for-hire' building of an
> experimental aircraft ' since the doctors didn't know anything about th
e
> scam, they obviously hadn't invested any of their own labor in the buildi
ng
> of the aircraft. Of course, to get an airworthiness certificate for this
> aircraft, the people would have to defraud the FAA. And, when people are
> out there defrauding the FAA, this will eventual lead to them (the FAA)
> eating away at the public's right to build its own airplanes.
>
>
> Unless, of course, there is a loophole that I don't know about (where one
> can pay to have kit airplanes professionally built) ' if that is the ca
se, I
> respectfully withdraw my comments (except for the foolishness / crook par
t,
> which still stands).
>
>
> Bill C.
>
> Dream ' 100%, everything else ' 0%
>
> US military stationed overseas until 2009
>
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
--
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: unbelievable!!!) |
Let me say up front, I think the 51% rule is good and needs to
continue as is so those of us who WANT to build a good airplane can
continue to do so. Perhaps the key to all this is what reasonable
level of Federal oversight can be tolerated without damaging the
industry, but keeping the bad players from totally ruining it as
stated by others (insurance rates, etc.). Most aircraft experimenters
come into the process with an idea (I hope) of what is expected and a
willingness to get their hands dirty. By putting in the sweat equity,
they deserve the benefits of ownership of their creations such as a
fine machine no spam-can company has been willing to take the time and
money to develop for the last several years and reduced future
maintenance costs. However, I think there is a segment of the
population out there that looks at the offerings in the experimental /
kitplane market and just drool, but they have NO desire or time to put
in the sweat equity needed to get the benefits. That's where the shady
operations are getting customers and where the FAA and the 51%
committee should focus its efforts.
The FAA is somewhat in a quandary, it has a mandate to promote
aviation while at the same time protect the safety of the general
public. Sometimes those two mandates conflict with each other. I think
we can all agree we don't want to see crapily built aircraft out
there, but keeping those airplanes out of the air may result in
over-regulation that'll kill off a significant portion of the
industry. Perhaps a re-shuffling of the regulations might come out
that keeps the 51% rule intact for the true builder working for his
own education and recreation with the goal of long-term ownership of
his creation. Also, let's look at "builder assist". If the guy who
bought the kit is actually getting his hands dirty, but having someone
looking over the shoulder and helping with rivet bucking etc., he
probably should qualify for an "Experimental Amateur-Built"
airworthiness certificate and then a repairman's cert after the
project is done. This seems to me is what Jesse's working on and
getting the Feds to review. The "pros" doing the help is what maybe
the Feds need to review, maybe something similar to a repair station
certification.
What needs to be addressed is what I mentioned in the first paragraph,
that segment of the market who wants to circumvent the 51% rule. Here
I suggest a new category for airworthiness that will satisfy the
market and help the FAA in performing its two prime mandates. Why
can't rules be set-up that would allow a kitplane owner "Joe
Sixbanger" to buy a kit from someone like Van's, drop-ship it to,
let's say "Bud's Airplane Shop", and "Bud's" crew of aviation
professionals build the ship for a fee and get it ready for DAR review
and delivery to "Joe"? This would qualify for that new category
"Experimental Commercial Built". And in order to qualify for
"Commercial Build" cert., the shop would have to comply with a set of
regulations that maybe falls somewhere in between Production Cert
under part 21 and a repair station. But, "Joe" in no way qualifies for
a repairman's cert., the airplane would need inspection just like any
TC ship. In order to eliminate the danger behind something like the
subject aircraft that started this thread, when the DAR reviews the
build, he also reviews any deviations from the published kit specs
supplied by the original designer and will only sign off if "Bud's"
shows that there is legitimate engineering justification behind the
modifications. This proposal doesn't require any change nor has any
affect on the real home-builder.
I'm afraid trying to eliminate the "hired-guns", will end up hurting
the entire homebuilt aviation industry. The market is there for the
hired-gun, so maybe we should embrace it. Afterall, more good quality
kitplanes flying will only help the insurance pool too.
Kevin Hovis.
RV-10 in the future.
On 2/14/07, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
> That is good news. If you have time, let us know when you have
> signoff by the feds and how the process went. I've said it before, I at
> least respect the intentions that you have in doing this as part of your
> mission. But turnkey is turnkey regardless of intentions. It is very
> good to hear you are working with the feds.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:20 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: factory built RVs (wasRe: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!)
>
>
> My point exactly. Thanks. I think it's a great program and a fantastic
> example of the best of both worlds. Yes, the builder builds enough to
> safely be the builder/maintainer of the airplane. Not only this, but he
> is
> taught things in the program that he might not be taught elsewhere that
> will
> benefit him in maintenance. This opens the world of experimental
> aviation
> to more people than those who have the 2,000 hours to put into a build
> project, and it makes them much safer, IMHO, than many of the Cessna
> drivers
> out there who don't know a bolt from a rivet or a cylinder from a sump.
> For
> those who want to know, that is exactly what Saint Aviation is doing
> with
> the -10. We are working on the blessing part now.
>
> Do not archive.
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> jesse@saintaviation.com
> www.saintaviation.com
> Cell: 352-427-0285
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 9:10 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: factory built RVs (wasRe: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!)
>
>
> Jesse Saint wrote:
> <jesse@saintaviation.com>
> >
> > Enter the "Two Weeks to Taxi" program.
>
> ...which falls under the "FAA blessed 'builder assistance
> centers'".
> The FAA has physically inspected the operation at the Glasair Aviation
> facility and approved the TWT program.
>
> I've personally talked to a Sportsman builder that lives nearby
> that
> went through the program. It is a VERY busy program, but there is no
> question in his mind (or in mine after talking to him) that the builder
> does more than 51% of the operations required by the FAA, and it is well
> documented so there should not be any problem obtaining the repairman
> certificate.
>
> I was seriously considering the TWT program at one time, and did
> a
> lot
> of personal research on it. There may be some "questionable" builder
> assist centers out there, but I don't think the TWT program is one of
> them.
>
> -Dj
>
>
> --
> 1:23 PM
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: unbelievable!!!) |
I think that we're making this too complicated, it's clear to me what
the purpose and intent if the 51% rule is.
I believe it to be a generous rule. i.e. it could have been 100% or 75%
or ?
It's also clear to me that the 3 week to taxi programs notwithstanding
the FAA's review/tacit approval go way beyond the purpose and intent of
the 51% rule. there is NO WAY that in 504 hours (3 sleepless weeks) you
can build and debug a safe airplane.
Judging what is 51% is clearly discretionary. IMO that should be left up
to the DAR.
If there is a dispute it could be appealed, just like a medical review
issue.
Seems to me we have the regulations we just need to enable an
enforcement of them.
IF someone believes that there is a need for an additional Category of
certificating, let them petition for it separately similar to the LSA.
Don't screw up the existing Experimental class by bastardizing it to
accommodate a segment of the market that wants to fit in between the
price/performance of fully certified aircraft and run under the guise of
being Experimental. These people have more time than money. Let them
spend their money wisely and let the insurance underwriters price the
risk accordingly as the history develops.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
Message 10
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I definitely agree that a buyer is not a builder, and that there should
be another category for them to show in especially the prestigious
builders awards.
Dan
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN STARN
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
Would you then also agree that a "buyer" should be restricted from
winning a "Builders" award for workmanship....like the Bronze Lindy at
OSH, as a very true life example...? ? KABONG Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Lloyd, Daniel R. <mailto:LloydDR@wernerco.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:13 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
I would beg to differ, I am very aware of the build to profit
and know several individuals doing it, and am approaching the whole
scenario very cautiously. What I do have an issue with is that someone
that paid for the construction, and not participating, even with another
previous build claiming the repairman's certificate. Let me repeat that,
I do personally do not have an issue with someone building for profit,
as long as the buyer does not get the repairman cert, in other words the
aircraft must be found airworthy at the time of certification, and it
must be maintained by the person who built it, or a qualified shop.
My opinion only, and no I am not naive just aware of what
everyone has done to bend the rules occasionally to met their individual
needs.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 6:13 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
.
By the way, I have every intention of setting up shop
just as soon as the rules are clarified. I do have a dog in this hunt
and would be just as happy if the Build Assist required FAA monitoring
for violation and financial penalties. When going into a street fight,
you don't bring a knife when the other guy has a knife you bring a
shotgun - Sean Connery.
John
Do not Archive
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:03 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
Knowing everyone from down there, this could not be
farther from the truth. The NWPA shop is there to give new builders an
introduction to metal kit plane building, specifically the RV series.
Remember, I do not have an affiliation with them, just know them from
being in the area, and highly respecting their efforts for the building
community.
Dan
N289DT
Message 11
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|
=0A=0AJohn, =0A=0AAm I misunderstanding something here or are
you planning to do the very same thing that you suggest the FAA should step
in and legislate?- I though I heard you say this before which is why I w
as taken aback when you suggested that the FAA should "clamp down" on these
"hired guns."- Is your version of the "shotgun" to offer you advantage b
ecause you have been and are accustomed to dealing with the FAA for so long
?=0A=0AWilliam=0Ahttp://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ =0A=0A----------
------------------------------=0A=0AReturn-Path: <owner-rv10-list-ser
ver@matronics.com> Tue Feb 13 17:26:51 2007=0A---- ---------------------
- --------------------------------------------------=0AX-Rcpt-To: <wcurt
is@nerv10.com> =0A=0A Dan, you are right there are great shops.- B
ut respectfully, you have not seen the Build Assists which allow the owner
to drink coffee (hour after hour, days on end, week after week) and watch w
hile the paid staff does the work.- Then at the end of the day, they prep
the "Builder" in how to explain what was done. - I don't consider you
na=EFve, I just think you are a bit Wide Eyed and innocent in the ways of 5
1% violations in today's lucrative market. - By the way, I have every i
ntention of setting up shop just as soon as the rules are clarified.- I d
o have a dog in this hunt and would be just as happy if the Build Assist re
quired FAA monitoring for violation and financial penalties.- When going
into a street fight, you don't bring a knife when the other guy has a knife
you bring a shotgun - Sean Connery. - =0A=0AJohn=0A=0ADo
not Archive =0A----------------------------------------=0A From:
owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matro
nics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.=0ASent: Tuesday, February 13, 20
07 8:03 AM=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: RV10-List: un
believable!!! - Knowing everyone from down there, this could not be far
ther from the truth. The NWPA shop is there to give new builders an introdu
ction to metal kit plane building, specifically the RV series. They are gre
at people, and do not bend the rules, they help the new builder complete th
e emp, and give the builder a solid foundation in correct building practice
s and the builder gets to try multiple tools while under instruction. But t
o make it clear, it is the builder that does the construction, the shop wil
l-HELP, not do,-with the priming and deburring but the builder is doing
the majority of the work. This shop is well organized and highly recommend
ed by other builders in the area. This is a great way to complete an emp in
7 days and get a solid footing to finish your project. Remember, I do not
have an affiliation with them, just know them from being in the area, and
highly respecting their efforts for the building community. Dan N289DT
======== =0A
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: unbelievable!!! |
I believe there currently exists another category. Its where buyers can ge
t Cessnas, Pipers, Columbias, Cirrus's, Diamonds etc. without having to bui
ld them themselves or know much about them. These companies had to jump th
rough hoops to certify both the aircraft itself and their facilities/ manuf
acturing. It seems to me unfair that they have to jump through all those h
oops and someone else can come in and compete with them without having to d
o any of that. If someone wants to build and sell RV10s they can. Modify
the design a bit and get it certified under a different name. Then get the
manufacturing facility certified also. Don't forget some of the above com
panies were experimental aircraft operations not too long ago. By the time
all this is done the RV10 look alike will be about 400K in line with all t
he other aircraft above. The intent of the experimental category is meant
for someone wanting to build their own aircraft not someone wanting to buy
a prebuilt
aircraft at a lower cost. Under this scenario there is nothing to stop a
shop from cutting corners and putting out very poor quality aircraft so the
y can make more profits. Who is going to know ? The customer? No oversi
ght of the shop whatsoever. =0A=0ANiko=0A40188=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A
=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco
.com>=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 1:
55:55 PM=0ASubject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!=0A=0A=0AI definitely agr
ee that a buyer is not a builder, and that there should be another category
for them to show in especially the prestigious builders awards.=0ADan=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-l
ist-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN STARN=0ASent: Tuesday, February
13, 2007 10:17 PM=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: RV10-List:
unbelievable!!!=0A=0A=0AWould you then also agree that a "buyer" should be
restricted from winning a "Builders" award for workmanship....like the Bron
ze Lindy at OSH, as a very true life example...? ? KABONG Do Not Archive
=0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: Lloyd, Daniel R. =0ATo: rv10-list@
matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:13 PM=0ASubject: RE: RV
10-List: unbelievable!!!=0A=0A=0AI would beg to differ, I am very aware of
the build to profit and know several individuals doing it, and am approachi
ng the whole scenario very cautiously. What I do have an issue with is that
someone that paid for the construction, and not participating, even with a
nother previous build claiming the repairman's certificate. Let me repeat t
hat, I do personally do not have an issue with someone building for profit,
as long as the buyer does not get the repairman cert, in other words the a
ircraft must be found airworthy at the time of certification, and it must b
e maintained by the person who built it, or a qualified shop.=0AMy opinion
only, and no I am not naive just aware of what everyone has done to bend th
e rules occasionally to met their individual needs.=0ADan=0A-----Original M
essage-----=0AFrom: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10
-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox=0ASent: Tuesday, Febru
ary 13, 2007 6:13 PM=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: RV10-List
: unbelievable!!!=0A=0A.=0A =0ABy the way, I have every intention of settin
g up shop just as soon as the rules are clarified. I do have a dog in this
hunt and would be just as happy if the Build Assist required FAA monitorin
g for violation and financial penalties. When going into a street fight, y
ou don=92t bring a knife when the other guy has a knife you bring a shotgun
' Sean Connery.=0A =0AJohn=0A=0A=0ADo not Archive=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: owner
-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.co
m] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.=0ASent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:03 AM
=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!=0A
=0AKnowing everyone from down there, this could not be farther from the tr
uth. The NWPA shop is there to give new builders an introduction to metal k
it plane building, specifically the RV series. Remember, I do not have an a
ffiliation with them, just know them from being in the area, and highly res
pecting their efforts for the building community.=0ADan=0AN289DT=0A =0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://ww
w.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List=0Ahref="http://forums.matronics.com">
===========
Message 13
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I believe the fuzzy line is between the "builder assist" shops that have
different levels of builder participation. I suppose there are some shops
on one end of the spectrum that have the "builder" show up on a couple of
weekends, put a rivet gun in his hand, take some pictures to prove he was
educated and instructed and built the plane - then send him home so he
doesn't get in the way of the folks building the plane. They put the
builders name on the data plate and he goes to the FAA and gets a repairman
certificate. Clearly wrong but what do I know.
Then there are the shops on the other end of the spectrum doing it the right
way - instructing and educating while the builder actually participates in
building the plane to a degree that satisfies the 51% rule (wish I
understood the rule). That works for me.
The rest of the shops are some where in the middle. Maybe we'll get some
guidance from the FAA (sure and I'm from the IRS and I'm here to help you).
Hopefully Jesse will enlighten us after the government folks put their
blessing on his operation.
The folks cranking out planes for sale with no pretense of being a "build
assist" shop or doing it for eduaction and/or recreation are clearly in a
category all to themselves. I believe these guys can be identified by the
"facts and circumstances" of their operation.
Mark
N410MR
>From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
>Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:55:55 -0500
>
>I definitely agree that a buyer is not a builder, and that there should
>be another category for them to show in especially the prestigious
>builders awards.
>Dan
>
> _____
>
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN STARN
>Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:17 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
>
>
>Would you then also agree that a "buyer" should be restricted from
>winning a "Builders" award for workmanship....like the Bronze Lindy at
>OSH, as a very true life example...? ? KABONG Do Not Archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lloyd, Daniel R. <mailto:LloydDR@wernerco.com>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:13 PM
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
>
> I would beg to differ, I am very aware of the build to profit
>and know several individuals doing it, and am approaching the whole
>scenario very cautiously. What I do have an issue with is that someone
>that paid for the construction, and not participating, even with another
>previous build claiming the repairman's certificate. Let me repeat that,
>I do personally do not have an issue with someone building for profit,
>as long as the buyer does not get the repairman cert, in other words the
>aircraft must be found airworthy at the time of certification, and it
>must be maintained by the person who built it, or a qualified shop.
> My opinion only, and no I am not naive just aware of what
>everyone has done to bend the rules occasionally to met their individual
>needs.
> Dan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 6:13 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
>
>
> .
>
>
> By the way, I have every intention of setting up shop
>just as soon as the rules are clarified. I do have a dog in this hunt
>and would be just as happy if the Build Assist required FAA monitoring
>for violation and financial penalties. When going into a street fight,
>you don't bring a knife when the other guy has a knife you bring a
>shotgun - Sean Connery.
>
>
> John
>
>
> Do not Archive
>
>
> _____
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
>R.
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:03 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
>
>
> Knowing everyone from down there, this could not be
>farther from the truth. The NWPA shop is there to give new builders an
>introduction to metal kit plane building, specifically the RV series.
>Remember, I do not have an affiliation with them, just know them from
>being in the area, and highly respecting their efforts for the building
>community.
>
> Dan
>
> N289DT
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get in the mood for Valentine's Day. View photos, recipes and more on your
Live.com page.
http://www.live.com/?addTemplate=ValentinesDay&ocid=T001MSN30A0701
Message 14
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Any interest in having a small gathering at X35 on everybody's way to
Sun-N-Fun this year? It has been mentioned in the past. The dates for the
fly-in are April 17-23. How many people are planning to attend, and how
many of those will be flying in with their RV-10's?
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve |
This is super cool. Can you give details? Which part number? did you
use the 10-32 threaded one? the MTV-3? I think I want my mtv. And
some more info!
Thanks
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steveadams
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:49 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve
http://www.asapmachineryrepair.com/airvalves2.htm
I put a similar 3 port valve in my panel. It is simple, accessible, and
easy to use.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94958#94958
Message 16
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I'll be flying out. Where is X35?
Bill DeRouchey
billderou@yahoo.com
N939SB
do not archive
Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com> wrote:
Any interest in having a small gathering at X35 on everybodys way
to Sun-N-Fun this year? It has been mentioned in the past. The dates for
the fly-in are April 17-23. How many people are planning to attend, and how many
of those will be flying in with their RV-10s?
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: unbelievable!!!) |
Kevin, an excellent assessment but one where you presented a conflict.
"Let's have no more new restrictive regulations; Let's create some new
regulations for hired guns". For anyone who has not already deleted the
read on this topic, you will need to understand exactly what led to the
Federal order of review on the 51% rule. Regulations by their nature
are RESTRICTIVE. They neither encourage nor promote General Aviation
except for the possible exception of increasing operational safety.
A Florida gun slinger was jealous of Rick Schramech (of Nevada)
inventing a computer conceived, Lancair IV on steroids (The Epic), which
could carry 6 POB and use a recycled and mothballed PT-6 powerplant from
the former Beech Starship. Rick successfully obtained Oregon Lottery
dollars, similar to the same source of dollars that VAN used to move
from Forest Grove, OR to Aurora, OR and expand his operations for all of
us. Dr. Carl Cadwell, a Pacific NW builder and operator of a Lancair
IVP, plucked down the money (more than a million)and brought a team of
friends over to build the dreamship in the Epic LT facility in Bend, OR.
They thoroughly documented that it was an OBAM project and fully
compliant with the existing 51% rule. The jealous Kit Manufacturer in
Florida could see where this was going - he called attorneys, he called
politicians, he called the EAA and the FAA.
Techniques have improved, fast build kits have become a way of
completion. This is no longer a fabric and wood industry or a steel tube
and simple VFR putter. The list of 51% tasks and those things not
considered became Obsolete. Wannabe Builders with money have motivation
to fly. Builders with experience and desire for money want to build for
profit. No it is not for their education, enjoyment or flying.
Electronic Gee Whiz and composite construction along with feature
comforts have left Spam Can manufacturers scrambling.
The regulations exist today. Produce more than one, get a Production
Certificate. Make the second, third and beyond, get a TC. Subject it to
production testing, spend millions, invest years, hope people will spend
the exorbitant inflated cost - then wait for the market to respond. And
oh how it does. The problem has become so perverse that Schrameck has
built a major production facility in Canada, a country whose lawyers
have not yet totally distorted this pursuit. The Carnahan lawsuit
shocked manufacturers. The Lycoming crankcase lawsuit has not helped.
In the US of A, you can operate under the radar screen and twist the
intent all you want. Get attention, even with one single builder, Dr.
Cadwell and the rest is where we are going next week and next month.
IMHO, I don't think we need more or new regs. I think as long as the
dynamic for gain is present we need to tighten the ability of DARs to
grant airworthiness certificates to the violators. Ethics, honesty and
intent get distorted due to the large sums a gunslinger can make.
I think the OBAM rules should be for single individuals and can identify
those who are making multiple copies for gain. Now at this juncture in
time it is the manufacturers of kits who are the majority on the
committee who will determine Chapter 2 - stay tuned.
Oh by the way. Dr. Cadwell is selling his pristine Lancair IVP, won his
lawsuit, got his Epic approved under OBAM and is thrilled with the rules
that allow him to "Live his Dream". Live your's too, build it yourself.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James K Hovis
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: factory built RVs (wasRe: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!)
<james.k.hovis@gmail.com>
Let me say up front, I think the 51% rule is good and needs to
continue as is so those of us who WANT to build a good airplane can
continue to do so. Perhaps the key to all this is what reasonable
level of Federal oversight can be tolerated without damaging the
industry, but keeping the bad players from totally ruining it as
stated by others (insurance rates, etc.). Most aircraft experimenters
come into the process with an idea (I hope) of what is expected and a
willingness to get their hands dirty. By putting in the sweat equity,
they deserve the benefits of ownership of their creations such as a
fine machine no spam-can company has been willing to take the time and
money to develop for the last several years and reduced future
maintenance costs. However, I think there is a segment of the
population out there that looks at the offerings in the experimental /
kitplane market and just drool, but they have NO desire or time to put
in the sweat equity needed to get the benefits. That's where the shady
operations are getting customers and where the FAA and the 51%
committee should focus its efforts.
The FAA is somewhat in a quandary, it has a mandate to promote
aviation while at the same time protect the safety of the general
public. Sometimes those two mandates conflict with each other. I think
we can all agree we don't want to see crapily built aircraft out
there, but keeping those airplanes out of the air may result in
over-regulation that'll kill off a significant portion of the
industry. Perhaps a re-shuffling of the regulations might come out
that keeps the 51% rule intact for the true builder working for his
own education and recreation with the goal of long-term ownership of
his creation. Also, let's look at "builder assist". If the guy who
bought the kit is actually getting his hands dirty, but having someone
looking over the shoulder and helping with rivet bucking etc., he
probably should qualify for an "Experimental -Amateur-Built"
airworthiness certificate and then a repairman's cert after the
project is done. This seems to me is what Jesse's working on and
getting the Feds to review. The "pros" doing the help is what maybe
the Feds need to review, maybe something similar to a repair station
certification.
What needs to be addressed is what I mentioned in the first paragraph,
that segment of the market who wants to circumvent the 51% rule. Here
I suggest a new category for airworthiness that will satisfy the
market and help the FAA in performing its two prime mandates. Why
can't rules be set-up that would allow a kitplane owner "Joe
Sixbanger" to buy a kit from someone like Van's, drop-ship it to,
let's say "Bud's Airplane Shop", and "Bud's" crew of aviation
professionals build the ship for a fee and get it ready for DAR review
and delivery to "Joe"? This would qualify for that new category -
"Experimental - Commercial Built". And in order to qualify for
"Commercial Build" cert., the shop would have to comply with a set of
regulations that maybe falls somewhere in between Production Cert
under part 21 and a repair station. But, "Joe" in no way qualifies for
a repairman's cert., the airplane would need inspection just like any
TC ship. In order to eliminate the danger behind something like the
subject aircraft that started this thread, when the DAR reviews the
build, he also reviews any deviations from the published kit specs
supplied by the original designer and will only sign off if "Bud's"
shows that there is legitimate engineering justification behind the
modifications. This proposal doesn't require any change nor has any
affect on the real home-builder.
I'm afraid trying to eliminate the "hired-guns", will end up hurting
the entire homebuilt aviation industry. The market is there for the
hired-gun, so maybe we should embrace it. Afterall, more good quality
kitplanes flying will only help the insurance pool too.
Kevin Hovis.
RV-10 in the future....
Message 18
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I am the first that I know of that took a career sabbatical course
change, attended A & P school in my time off at 53. Took a job with a
World class Regional Airline to learn ropes with 20 and 25 year veterans
(who mostly are younger than I)_ and intends to take my 23 years as a
DPE and 30+ years as an instructor to a new arena. Living in the heart
of Kit Aviation helps with Oregon Aero, EI, VANS, Lancair, Mountain
High, OP Technologies, Epic, Max Viz, Artex, UPS now Garmin.
I waited a decade for the FAA to change the 60 year old "You are Dead as
a Professional Airline Pilot" rule.
I intend to serve as an A & P mechanic with IA designation - Long Term,
become a respected EAA tech advisor for decades and gain the wisdom and
respect of someone like Joe Gauthier. I intend to construct and manage
a Builder Assist Facility that is world class in scope and is compliant
with the Next Generation of rule interpretation. Yes I was spurred on
by all of the former Lancair Employees who without A & P certificates
would ask six figures to produce those beautiful flying machines.
I have more than fifty frustrated career airline mechanics (from a pool
of over 400) who would love to moonlight on an hourly basis and bring
their World Class experience in Hydraulics, Avionics, Electrical
Distribution, Sheet Metal, Composites, Interiors and yes Topcoat
Painting to the OBAM world. Dick VanGrunsven does not see the benefit
in what Joe Bartels has accomplished with Lancair Factory Assist... so
be it. Risk Aversion has its merits.
If you want to build it in your garage by yourself, so be it. Post it
on Tim's site so we can all enjoy in your dream.
5,000 aircraft build. Hit me over the head. I am just not going to do
it by circumventing the intent of the Regs. Will I build for solely for
a paycheck? No way, would I love to assist scores of others, You bet.
Have I seen what a few reckless individuals can do to scores of
builders, not yet completed, when they skew the insurance underwriters
guidelines, you bet. Do I encourage High Performance Proficiency
Training like Deem's presented. YOU BET.
Where we go from here is totally dependent on what you as builders ask
of your committee, respond to the NPRM and tell your elected officials
what you want. You are going to get it your way or you are going to get
screwed. The laws of physics acknowledge that this mass is growing and
IS in motion. Before I invest the hundreds of thousands in the
infrastructure, the dust from that whiner in Florida is going to need a
long-term published resolution. So far, I have about 6,000 hours
invested in Living my Dream. It began long before VAN made that first
Prototype flight in the RV-10. The RV-10 is just the finest platform to
realize my dream.
The road traveled includes a Christen Eagle wood, tube and fabric
project, a composite Lancair project and now the best of all worlds the
RV-10. And yes my 60'x48'x14' hangar was just completed last week so it
is time to challenge Deems' prognosis of a completion date of 2020
before kit 1,000 is finished.
William you are mistaken if you think I encourage hired gun OBAM
production. I envision something more lofty like what Dan Checkoway has
done after building only his first kit. He is now an Expert, an Author,
an Instructor and is "Helping others Live their Dreams". You would be
in error to confuse me with the other John in Oklahoma.
John Cox
#40600
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Curtis
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
John,
Am I misunderstanding something here or are you planning to do the very
same thing that you suggest the FAA should step in and legislate? I
though I heard you say this before which is why I was taken aback when
you suggested that the FAA should "clamp down" on these "hired guns."
Is your version of the "shotgun" to offer you advantage because you have
been and are accustomed to dealing with the FAA for so long?
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
Message 19
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Oh yeh, do I need to remind all of you RV-10 builders that you are the
youngest, strongest most respected 800 pound Gorillas on the world's
playground. I just want to live quietly being a Great Silver in my Ole
Age in the lush, rich Rain Forest of the Pacific NW.
Happy Valentines... treat your partner right tonight. Celebrate 5,000
flying RVs - together.
John Cox
the Turbanator #40600
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
I am the first that I know of that took a career sabbatical course
change, attended A & P school in my time off at 53. Took a job with a
World class Regional Airline to learn ropes with 20 and 25 year veterans
(who mostly are younger than I)_ and intends to take my 23 years as a
DPE and 30+ years as an instructor to a new arena. Living in the heart
of Kit Aviation helps with Oregon Aero, EI, VANS, Lancair, Mountain
High, OP Technologies, Epic, Max Viz, Artex, UPS now Garmin.
I waited a decade for the FAA to change the 60 year old "You are Dead as
a Professional Airline Pilot" rule.
I intend to serve as an A & P mechanic with IA designation - Long Term,
become a respected EAA tech advisor for decades and gain the wisdom and
respect of someone like Joe Gauthier. I intend to construct and manage
a Builder Assist Facility that is world class in scope and is compliant
with the Next Generation of rule interpretation. Yes I was spurred on
by all of the former Lancair Employees who without A & P certificates
would ask six figures to produce those beautiful flying machines.
I have more than fifty frustrated career airline mechanics (from a pool
of over 400) who would love to moonlight on an hourly basis and bring
their World Class experience in Hydraulics, Avionics, Electrical
Distribution, Sheet Metal, Composites, Interiors and yes Topcoat
Painting to the OBAM world. Dick VanGrunsven does not see the benefit
in what Joe Bartels has accomplished with Lancair Factory Assist... so
be it. Risk Aversion has its merits.
If you want to build it in your garage by yourself, so be it. Post it
on Tim's site so we can all enjoy in your dream.
5,000 aircraft build. Hit me over the head. I am just not going to do
it by circumventing the intent of the Regs. Will I build for solely for
a paycheck? No way, would I love to assist scores of others, You bet.
Have I seen what a few reckless individuals can do to scores of
builders, not yet completed, when they skew the insurance underwriters
guidelines, you bet. Do I encourage High Performance Proficiency
Training like Deem's presented. YOU BET.
Where we go from here is totally dependent on what you as builders ask
of your committee, respond to the NPRM and tell your elected officials
what you want. You are going to get it your way or you are going to get
screwed. The laws of physics acknowledge that this mass is growing and
IS in motion. Before I invest the hundreds of thousands in the
infrastructure, the dust from that whiner in Florida is going to need a
long-term published resolution. So far, I have about 6,000 hours
invested in Living my Dream. It began long before VAN made that first
Prototype flight in the RV-10. The RV-10 is just the finest platform to
realize my dream.
The road traveled includes a Christen Eagle wood, tube and fabric
project, a composite Lancair project and now the best of all worlds the
RV-10. And yes my 60'x48'x14' hangar was just completed last week so it
is time to challenge Deems' prognosis of a completion date of 2020
before kit 1,000 is finished.
William you are mistaken if you think I encourage hired gun OBAM
production. I envision something more lofty like what Dan Checkoway has
done after building only his first kit. He is now an Expert, an Author,
an Instructor and is "Helping others Live their Dreams". You would be
in error to confuse me with the other John in Oklahoma.
John Cox
#40600
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Curtis
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!
John,
Am I misunderstanding something here or are you planning to do the very
same thing that you suggest the FAA should step in and legislate? I
though I heard you say this before which is why I was taken aback when
you suggested that the FAA should "clamp down" on these "hired guns."
Is your version of the "shotgun" to offer you advantage because you have
been and are accustomed to dealing with the FAA for so long?
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve |
I was intrigued as well, so a little searching and I found this:
http://www.clippard.com/store/display_details.asp?sku=MTV-2P
1/8" NPT on the back. That should make a really nice alternate air
source selector. Price: less than 12 bucks.
Mike Schipper
#40576 - Wings - www.rvten.com
On Feb 14, 2007, at 4:53 PM, Chris Johnston wrote:
> <CJohnston@popsound.com>
>
> This is super cool. Can you give details? Which part number? did
> you
> use the 10-32 threaded one? the MTV-3? I think I want my mtv. And
> some more info!
>
> Thanks
> cj
>
> #40410
> fuse
> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steveadams
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:49 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve
>
> <dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com>
>
> http://www.asapmachineryrepair.com/airvalves2.htm
>
> I put a similar 3 port valve in my panel. It is simple, accessible,
> and
> easy to use.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94958#94958
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve |
Here is the clippard catalog
<http://www.clippard.com/downloads/general/PDF_Documents/2006%20Catalog/Catalog%20by%20Section/2-Way%20Control%20Valves.pdf>
I was thinking the TV-2SP
$9.03 or $9.85 with epdm seals. But the catch $5 handling and $10 shipping.
$25 makes a pretty slick alternate air set up.
Larry
Michael Schipper wrote:
> <mike@learningplanet.com>
>
> I was intrigued as well, so a little searching and I found this:
>
> http://www.clippard.com/store/display_details.asp?sku=MTV-2P
>
> 1/8" NPT on the back. That should make a really nice alternate air
> source selector. Price: less than 12 bucks.
>
> Mike Schipper
> #40576 - Wings - www.rvten.com
>
>
> On Feb 14, 2007, at 4:53 PM, Chris Johnston wrote:
>
>> <CJohnston@popsound.com>
>>
>> This is super cool. Can you give details? Which part number? did you
>> use the 10-32 threaded one? the MTV-3? I think I want my mtv. And
>> some more info!
>>
>> Thanks
>> cj
>>
>> #40410
>> fuse
>> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steveadams
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:49 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve
>>
>>
>> http://www.asapmachineryrepair.com/airvalves2.htm
>>
>> I put a similar 3 port valve in my panel. It is simple, accessible, and
>> easy to use.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94958#94958
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 22
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I would be interested. We are planning on flying our old Bonanza
since the RV-10 is a ways from being done. Where is X35?
David Maib
#40559
On Feb 14, 2007, at 3:24 PM, Jesse Saint wrote:
Any interest in having a small gathering at X35 on everybody=92s way to
Sun-N-Fun this year? It has been mentioned in the past. The dates
for the fly-in are April 17-23. How many people are planning to
attend, and how many of those will be flying in with their RV-10=92s?
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
=========
Message 23
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About 75 miles NNW from Lakeland. The cheapest fuel around available 24x7
self-serve.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Sun-N-Fun
I'll be flying out. Where is X35?
Bill DeRouchey
billderou@yahoo.com
N939SB
do not archive
Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com> wrote:
Any interest in having a small gathering at X35 on everybody's way to
Sun-N-Fun this year? It has been mentioned in the past. The dates for the
fly-in are April 17-23. How many people are planning to attend, and how
many of those will be flying in with their RV-10's?
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com <http://www.saintaviation.com/>
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve |
Michael, I too am interested in acquiring one of these valves and would
be prepared to send you the funds for purchase of an additional valve
with your order, inclusive of costs for shipping downunder.
Regards
Patrick Pulis
Adelaide, South Australia
#40299
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Rosen [mailto:LarryRosen@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, 15 February 2007 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve
Here is the clippard catalog
<http://www.clippard.com/downloads/general/PDF_Documents/2006%20Catalog/
Catalog%20by%20Section/2-Way%20Control%20Valves.pdf>
I was thinking the TV-2SP
$9.03 or $9.85 with epdm seals. But the catch $5 handling and $10
shipping.
$25 makes a pretty slick alternate air set up.
Larry
Michael Schipper wrote:
> <mike@learningplanet.com>
>
> I was intrigued as well, so a little searching and I found this:
>
> http://www.clippard.com/store/display_details.asp?sku=MTV-2P
>
> 1/8" NPT on the back. That should make a really nice alternate air
> source selector. Price: less than 12 bucks.
>
> Mike Schipper
> #40576 - Wings - www.rvten.com
>
>
> On Feb 14, 2007, at 4:53 PM, Chris Johnston wrote:
>
>> <CJohnston@popsound.com>
>>
>> This is super cool. Can you give details? Which part number? did
>> you use the 10-32 threaded one? the MTV-3? I think I want my mtv.
>> And some more info!
>>
>> Thanks
>> cj
>>
>> #40410
>> fuse
>> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steveadams
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:49 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Static Air System - Alternate Air Valve
>>
>> --> <dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com>
>>
>> http://www.asapmachineryrepair.com/airvalves2.htm
>>
>> I put a similar 3 port valve in my panel. It is simple, accessible,
>> and easy to use.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94958#94958
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Oil access pannel |
Some time back there was a post that told where onecould purchase a
flush moumted Cessna type latch for the oil access panel. Would you
please give me details of the provider.
Thank you
P.Walter
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet |
Jim,
I may have missed it in the disussion but insurance is another
consideration. The -10 will probably be significantly more expensive to
insure; fortunately you get to split that cost too.
On the other side one day you will sell your plane. More likely
sooner rather than later when in a partnership. If you choose to build a
-10 I suspect that you will see more of your initial "investment" back
from a -10 than a fully loaded -7(A). (IMHO)
Robin
RV-4 Sold
Flying RV-6A 325 Hours
RV-10 in pieces
I have an unlimited budget & I expect to exceed it.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Sec 12: Empennage Fairings |
I'm working from e memory that is nearly two years old
but I believe that bump occurs at an area where
multiple layers of aluminum meet and it is attempting
to transition that area. You can certainly do some
glass work if you want but I would wait until it is
riveted. When you do the glasswork is a personal
choice. You may want to do some of it now because you
are very likely to get very sick of it later on.
Jerry
--- orchidman <gary@wingscc.com> wrote:
> <gary@wingscc.com>
>
> I am finishing up my Emp kit working on Sec 12 and
> have a question for those already flying or in the
> final stages.
>
> Fitting the elevator tip, I find that there is a
> slight wave about 2 long in the fiberglass about
> half way back from the front tip to the back tip
> where it attaches to the elevator. I would like to
> smooth this out as well as fill in any small
> imperfections where the tip mates up with the metal.
>
> How much fiberglass work are people doing in this
> area and when? Are they filling any seams visible
> as well as smoothing any variations in the glass or
> glass & metal?
>
> After the tip is riveted on, I sure hope it is never
> coming off again. I could do the sanding and
> filling now or wait until I do the glass work on the
> cabin/doors. I am sure the same situation will be
> present with the wings.
>
> --------
> Gary Blankenbiller
> RV10 - # 40674
> (N410GB reserved)
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94766#94766
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
>
>
>
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