---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/16/07: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:08 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Question (Rob Kermanj) 2. 04:19 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Question (tadsargent) 3. 04:20 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Question (Rob Kermanj) 4. 06:37 AM - Re: Oil access pannelOil access pannel (Wayne Edgerton) 5. 06:40 AM - Re: Camlocs (was Oil access pannel) (Wayne Edgerton) 6. 07:10 AM - Re: Oil access panel (Perry Casson-home) 7. 07:17 AM - Re: Camlocs (was Oil access pannel) (Lloyd, Daniel R.) 8. 07:33 AM - Re: Re: Camlocs (was Oil access pannel) () 9. 07:34 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Question (Niko) 10. 07:37 AM - Re: Oil access pannel (Niko) 11. 08:04 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Question (Vern W. Smith) 12. 11:08 AM - Fuel Guardian (Chris Johnston) 13. 11:30 AM - SS fastener galling (John Ackerman) 14. 11:59 AM - Re: SS fastener galling (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 15. 02:11 PM - 51% Committee Meeting (John W. Cox) 16. 04:37 PM - infinity grips () 17. 05:24 PM - Re: infinity grips (Jesse Saint) 18. 06:06 PM - Re: SS fastener galling (John Ackerman) 19. 06:06 PM - Re: infinity grips (GenGrumpy@aol.com) 20. 06:28 PM - Re: infinity grips (Tim Olson) 21. 07:26 PM - CAD Drawings (Jesse Saint) 22. 07:37 PM - Re: infinity grips (Lloyd, Daniel R.) 23. 08:22 PM - Re: CAD Drawings () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:08:23 AM PST US From: Rob Kermanj Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Question You could also use a serrated putty knife. do not archive. On Feb 15, 2007, at 10:38 PM, John W. Cox wrote: > Correction from the field. Do not use a metallic putty knife to > clean proseal. A stress riser is introduced which begins cracking > of the skin material. > > > It is an automatic termination offence at work if you are caught > with any metallic screwdriver, razor knife or putty knife with > Proseal. We use a beveled fiberglas reinforced plastic hand > scrapper. Wear a glove so you don=92t ramp the other end into the > palm of your hand. > > > Proseal is used like Greek Windex=85 everywhere for just about > everything. > > > John Cox > > > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern W. Smith > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:52 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Question > > > When I built my tanks I called Van=92s and talked with them about the > pros and cons of the different way of sealing the senders. It was > suggested to use proseal only. I asked about the concern of having > to replace a sender unit and was told it=92s not a problem just use a > putty knife and clean to residue off. Then install the new sender > unit and reseal it. > > > Pulling a tank to replace a sender unit sound like a lot of work, > but to remove a tank because a gasket leaked would be down right > frustrating. > > > Vern Smith (#324) > > Do not archive > > > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf OfDave & Brenda Emond > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:46 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Question > > > I would advise regular checks of the gaskets, should you choose to > go the route of gaskets only. I would hate anyone to suffer the > problems I experienced. The gaskets appeared to react with the fuel > and swelled. > > > I originally decided against proseal, and went with gaskets only. > After developing fuel leaks on both tanks, I have subsequently > removed the gaskets and have used proseal on both sender units. > Proseal does provide a more permanent fix, with less chance of a > fuel leak. > > > Dave Emond > > 40159 > > Flying > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > > http://forums.matronics.com > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > http://forums.matronics.com > List > ======================== > ======================== > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:19:01 AM PST US From: "tadsargent" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Question What is the source of this, I would like to hear more about how this could happen. Thanks Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Kermanj To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 7:05 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Question You could also use a serrated putty knife. do not archive. On Feb 15, 2007, at 10:38 PM, John W. Cox wrote: Correction from the field. Do not use a metallic putty knife to clean proseal. A stress riser is introduced which begins cracking of the skin material. It is an automatic termination offence at work if you are caught with any metallic screwdriver, razor knife or putty knife with Proseal. We use a beveled fiberglas reinforced plastic hand scrapper. Wear a glove so you don=92t ramp the other end into the palm of your hand. Proseal is used like Greek Windex=85 everywhere for just about everything. John Cox ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern W. Smith Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:52 PM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Question When I built my tanks I called Van=92s and talked with them about the pros and cons of the different way of sealing the senders. It was suggested to use proseal only. I asked about the concern of having to replace a sender unit and was told it=92s not a problem just use a putty knife and clean to residue off. Then install the new sender unit and reseal it. Pulling a tank to replace a sender unit sound like a lot of work, but to remove a tank because a gasket leaked would be down right frustrating. Vern Smith (#324) Do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf OfDave & Brenda Emond Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:46 AM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Question I would advise regular checks of the gaskets, should you choose to go the route of gaskets only. I would hate anyone to suffer the problems I experienced. The gaskets appeared to react with the fuel and swelled. I originally decided against proseal, and went with gaskets only. After developing fuel leaks on both tanks, I have subsequently removed the gaskets and have used proseal on both sender units. Proseal does provide a more permanent fix, with less chance of a fuel leak. Dave Emond 40159 Flying http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com - The RV10-List Email Forum - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:20:50 AM PST US From: Rob Kermanj Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Question I meant to say that you could also use a serrated plastic party knife. do not archive. On Feb 16, 2007, at 7:05 AM, Rob Kermanj wrote: > You could also use a serrated putty knife. > > do not archive. > > On Feb 15, 2007, at 10:38 PM, John W. Cox wrote: > >> Correction from the field. Do not use a metallic putty knife to >> clean proseal. A stress riser is introduced which begins cracking >> of the skin material. >> >> >> It is an automatic termination offence at work if you are caught >> with any metallic screwdriver, razor knife or putty knife with >> Proseal. We use a beveled fiberglas reinforced plastic hand >> scrapper. Wear a glove so you don=92t ramp the other end into the >> palm of your hand. >> >> >> Proseal is used like Greek Windex=85 everywhere for just about >> everything. >> >> >> John Cox >> >> >> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list- >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern W. Smith >> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:52 PM >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Question >> >> >> When I built my tanks I called Van=92s and talked with them about >> the pros and cons of the different way of sealing the senders. It >> was suggested to use proseal only. I asked about the concern of >> having to replace a sender unit and was told it=92s not a problem >> just use a putty knife and clean to residue off. Then install the >> new sender unit and reseal it. >> >> >> Pulling a tank to replace a sender unit sound like a lot of work, >> but to remove a tank because a gasket leaked would be down right >> frustrating. >> >> >> Vern Smith (#324) >> >> Do not archive >> >> >> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list- >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf OfDave & Brenda Emond >> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:46 AM >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Question >> >> >> >> >> >> I would advise regular checks of the gaskets, should you choose to >> go the route of gaskets only. I would hate anyone to suffer the >> problems I experienced. The gaskets appeared to react with the >> fuel and swelled. >> >> >> I originally decided against proseal, and went with gaskets only. >> After developing fuel leaks on both tanks, I have subsequently >> removed the gaskets and have used proseal on both sender units. >> Proseal does provide a more permanent fix, with less chance of a >> fuel leak. >> >> >> Dave Emond >> >> 40159 >> >> Flying >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> >> http://forums.matronics.com >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> http://forums.matronics.com >> >> - The RV10-List Email Forum - class="Apple-converted- >> space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10- >> List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple- >> converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com >> > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:57 AM PST US From: "Wayne Edgerton" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oil access pannelOil access pannel I also installed the Sky Bolt cam locks and I just looked up the invoice for them. They have an RV10 kit that I bought and it was 438.68. But because of the spacing I used I had to buy more cam locks. That was another $132. I also had to buy a com lock tool for about $50. So that adds up to about $620 total. I like I how they turned out also. But time will tell how it works out. These are adjustable cam locks so as they become loose over time you can tighten them up. Wayne Edgerton #40336 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:07 AM PST US From: "Wayne Edgerton" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Camlocs (was Oil access pannel) If any of you want photos of the cam lock install just let me know and I can forward them to you. Wayne Edgerton #40336 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:40 AM PST US From: Perry Casson-home Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oil access panel This hinge with a pair or Hartwell latches looks pretty nice: http://www.justrvparts.com/Oil%20Door%20Hidden%20Hinge.htm Perry Casson _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walter Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 11:33 PM Subject: RV10-List: Oil access pannel Some time back there was a post that told where onecould purchase a flush moumted Cessna type latch for the oil access panel. Would you please give me details of the provider. Thank you P.Walter ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:38 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Camlocs (was Oil access pannel) From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." I would like them and I am sure many others would too. Can you send them to Tim and he can post them under the mods section? Tim is this good? Dan N289DT _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Edgerton Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 9:40 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Camlocs (was Oil access pannel) If any of you want photos of the cam lock install just let me know and I can forward them to you. Wayne Edgerton #40336 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:17 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: RE: RV10-List: Camlocs (was Oil access pannel) I would like to see the pics. Did you use hinges on one side and camlocks? Jim > > From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." > Date: 2007/02/16 Fri AM 10:17:08 EST > To: > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Camlocs (was Oil access pannel) > > I would like them and I am sure many others would too. Can you send them > to Tim and he can post them under the mods section? > Tim is this good? > Dan > N289DT > > _____ > > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne > Edgerton > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 9:40 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Camlocs (was Oil access pannel) > > > If any of you want photos of the cam lock install just let me know and I > can forward them to you. > > Wayne Edgerton #40336 > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:53 AM PST US From: Niko Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Question It's nothing particular to proseal. Using sharp metal tools results in scr atches which are stress risers thus this results in more work, At a minimu m the scratches have to be removed, if they are deep a repair might have to be incorporated.=0A=0ANiko=0A40188=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AF rom: tadsargent =0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0A Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 7:18:25 AM=0ASubject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel T ank Question=0A=0A=0AWhat is the source of this, I would like to hear more about how this could happen.=0AThanks=0ATad=0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: Rob Kermanj =0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, Febru ary 16, 2007 7:05 AM=0ASubject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Question=0A=0A=0AY ou could also use a serrated putty knife. =0A=0A=0Ado not archive.=0A=0A=0A On Feb 15, 2007, at 10:38 PM, John W. Cox wrote:=0A=0A=0ACorrection from th e field. Do not use a metallic putty knife to clean proseal. A stress ris er is introduced which begins cracking of the skin material.=0A=0A =0AIt is an automatic termination offence at work if you are caught with any metall ic screwdriver, razor knife or putty knife with Proseal. We use a beveled fiberglas reinforced plastic hand scrapper. Wear a glove so you don=92t ra mp the other end into the palm of your hand.=0A=0A =0AProseal is used like Greek Windex=85 everywhere for just about everything.=0A=0A =0AJohn Cox =0A =0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10- list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern W. Smith=0ASent: Thursday, Feb ruary 15, 2007 1:52 PM=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: RV10-Li st: Fuel Tank Question=0A=0A =0AWhen I built my tanks I called Van=92s and talked with them about the pros and cons of the different way of sealing th e senders. It was suggested to use proseal only. I asked about the concern of having to replace a sender unit and was told it=92s not a problem just u se a putty knife and clean to residue off. Then install the new sender unit and reseal it.=0A=0A =0APulling a tank to replace a sender unit sound like a lot of work, but to remove a tank because a gasket leaked would be down right frustrating.=0A=0A =0AVern Smith (#324)=0ADo not archive=0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0AFrom: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-se rver@matronics.com] On Behalf OfDave & Brenda Emond=0ASent: Thursday, Febru ary 15, 2007 11:46 AM=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: RV10-Lis t: Fuel Tank Question=0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0AI would advise regular checks of the gaskets, should you choose to go the route of gaskets only. I would hate anyone to suffer the problems I experienced. The gaskets appear ed to react with the fuel and swelled.=0A=0A =0AI originally decided agains t proseal, and went with gaskets only. After developing fuel leaks on both tanks, I have subsequently removed the gaskets and have used proseal on bot h sender units. Proseal does provide a more permanent fix, with less chance of a fuel leak.=0A=0A =0ADave Emond=0A40159=0AFlying=0A=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A =0A =0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List=0A http://forums.matron ics.com=0A http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matr onics.com =0A - The RV10-List Email Forum - class="Apple-converte d-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List - N EW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://fo rums.matronics.com=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List=0Ahref="ht ===================== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:09 AM PST US From: Niko Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oil access pannel Thanks Mark,=0A =0ANice job.=0A =0ANiko=0ADo not archive=0A=0A=0A----- Orig inal Message ----=0AFrom: Mark Ritter =0ATo: rv10-list@ matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:07:48 PM=0ASubject: Re: RV10-List: Oil access pannel=0A=0A=0ANiko,=0A=0AThis is the best I can com e up tonight. I used 1 3/4" .063 strip around the =0Afuse to mount the cam loc recepticles. I believe you could use .050 which =0Awould bend around t he curves much easier. The cutouts between the =0Arecepticles reduce weigh t and make bending the tabs down to fit the slope of =0Athe cowling much ea sier.=0A=0AMark=0AN410MR=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>From: Niko =0A> : Re: RV10-List: Oil access pannel=0A>Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:47:22 -0800 (PST)=0A>=0A>Mark,=0A>=0A>Do you have any pictures of your mounting you ca n share with the group?=0A>=0A>Niko=0A>40188=0A>=0A>=0A>----- Original Mess age ----=0A>From: Mark Ritter =0A>To: rv10-list@matroni cs.com=0A>Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 4:54:28 PM=0A>Subject: Re: RV10 Ritter" =0A>=0A>I used the Skybolt camlocs around the f uselage to avoid having to push the=0A>piano wire around the curves and pia no hinges between the upper and lower=0A>cowls. The camlocs worked great. =0A>=0A>Mark=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> >From: Niko =0A> >Repl y-To: rv10-list@matronics.com=0A> >To: rv10-list@matronics.com=0A> >Subject : Re: RV10-List: Oil access pannel=0A> >Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:35:18 -08 00 (PST)=0A> >=0A> >I noticed Skybolt has a camloc set for the RV10 cowl. Has anyone =0A>installed=0A> >these? Do they work well?=0A> >=0A> >Niko=0A > >40188=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >----- Original Message ----=0A> >From: Mark Ritte r =0A> >To: rv10-list@matronics.com=0A> >Sent: Thursday , February 15, 2007 12:25:07 PM=0A> >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oil access pan r509@msn.com>=0A> >=0A> >Skybolt camlocs work well.=0A> >=0A> >Mark=0A> > =0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > >From: Michael Schipper m=0A> > >Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oil access pannel=0A> > >Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:25:19 -0600=0A> > >=0A> > >Paul,=0A> > >=0A> > >If you are referri ng to the Hartwell latches, you can get them from=0A> >Wicks:=0A> > >=0A> > >http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=1456/=0A> >i ndex.html=0A> > >=0A> > >Mike Schipper=0A> > >#40576 - Tanks - www.rvten.co m=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > >On Feb 14, 2007, at 11:33 PM, Paul Walter wrote:=0A> > >=0A> > >>Some time back there was a post that told where onec ould purchase a=0A> > >>flush moumted Cessna type latch for the oil acces s panel. Would you=0A> > >>please give me details of the provider.=0A> > > >=0A> > >>Thank you=0A> > >>=0A> > >>P.Walter=0A> > >>=0A> > >>http://www.m atronic=0A> >______________________________________________________________ ___=0A> >FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo ' buy and se= ==========0A>=0A>________________________________________ _________________________=0A>Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your frie nds list with W=========0A=0A______________________________ ___________________________________=0AWant a degree but can't afford to qui t? Top school degrees online - in as =0Afast as 1 year =0Ahttp://forms.next ag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearch=n&tm=y&se arch=education_text_links_88_h288c&s=4079&p=5116 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:03 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Question From: "Vern W. Smith" Two problems come to mind first if the aluminum sheet is scratched it sets up an area where stresses are concentrated and can (will?) result in a crack. This is why scratches must be blended into the surrounding area. You can read more about this in the book "Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices: Aircraft Inspection and Repair, Aircraft Alterations Ac 43.13." Second if the tool is a dissimilar metal it can leave tiny partials behind and setup small galvanic cells that promote corrosion. This is why one should never use steel wool on aluminum. Sorry about any miss leading advice. I should have though through what I was told before passing it on. I think I will now go remove my foot from my mouth:) Vern Smith _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tadsargent Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 4:18 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Tank Question What is the source of this, I would like to hear more about how this could happen. Thanks Tad On Feb 15, 2007, at 10:38 PM, John W. Cox wrote: Correction from the field. Do not use a metallic putty knife to clean proseal. A stress riser is introduced which begins cracking of the skin material. It is an automatic termination offence at work if you are caught with any metallic screwdriver, razor knife or putty knife with Proseal. We use a beveled fiberglas reinforced plastic hand scrapper. Wear a glove so you don't ramp the other end into the palm of your hand. Proseal is used like Greek Windex... everywhere for just about everything. John Cox _____ When I built my tanks I called Van's and talked with them about the pros and cons of the different way of sealing the senders. It was suggested to use proseal only. I asked about the concern of having to replace a sender unit and was told it's not a problem just use a putty knife and clean to residue off. Then install the new sender unit and reseal it. Pulling a tank to replace a sender unit sound like a lot of work, but to remove a tank because a gasket leaked would be down right frustrating. Vern Smith (#324) Do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:30 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Guardian From: "Chris Johnston" Hey Scott - I kept meaning to ask you how your fuel guardian is working for you. do you like it? does it really go off where you thought it would? I think it was 5.5 gallons right? Just wondering cause I copied your install... also, I got a question from another builder about the install, and I couldn't seem to find the page where you explained it. is that still up? Inquiring minds want to know! cj #40410 fuse www.perfectlygoodairplane.net ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:54 AM PST US From: John Ackerman Subject: RV10-List: SS fastener galling I want to install a magnetometer shelf behind the baggage compartment , bolting it to the longerons with AN3 hardware. I ordered the appropriate stainless steel bolts, nuts, and washers; placed the first set in the first hole, and began tightening. The nut tightened up early, long before reaching the end of the threads, and could not be backed off. I finally had to twist hard enough to shear the bolt in order to remove it. Experimenting with a SS bolt held in the shop vise gave the same result - the nut "galled" on the bolt and froze solid. I could not remove the nut except by shearing the bolt. I didn't tighten particularly fast, either, so although there was some friction heating, it was not abnormal. Substituting a regular steel AN365 nut solved the problem - it behaved perfectly normally. Likewise, substituting a steel AN3 bolt for the SS bolt and using a stainless nut gave no problem. A generous coat of Boelube solid wax lubricant allowed the stainless nut and bolt to work together. Now "everybody" in my previous life (high temperature chemical and electrochemical technology) knew better than to use stainless-on- stainless threaded fasteners because of this very same galling phenomenon, but it just did not occur to me that it would be a problem, especially at room temperature. Talk about forgetting lessons learned! Solution: use a steel AN365 nut and accept the miniscule magnetic field it causes. BTW, the nut wighs about 2 g and the bolt about 4 g. I'm thinking that there's not any significant dissimilar metal corrosion problem - the difference is much smaller than steel vs aluminum. Boelube would work for the first few SS-on-SS assembly/disassembly cycles, but it could conceivably dry out or be removed by repeated assembly and disassembly and lose its protective film. Somebody else down the line could also use new SS hardware and not know... FWIW John Ackerman 40458 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:03 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: SS fastener galling From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Any chance you got a nut with a different thread count per inch than the bolt? I personally have never run across this before and it sounds very odd. I have used the Lowes Depot variety of SS nuts and bolts together tons of times with no problems. Maybe they just have a bit more "slop" than what you are using. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Limbo Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Ackerman Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 1:28 PM Subject: RV10-List: SS fastener galling I want to install a magnetometer shelf behind the baggage compartment , bolting it to the longerons with AN3 hardware. I ordered the appropriate stainless steel bolts, nuts, and washers; placed the first set in the first hole, and began tightening. The nut tightened up early, long before reaching the end of the threads, and could not be backed off. I finally had to twist hard enough to shear the bolt in order to remove it. Experimenting with a SS bolt held in the shop vise gave the same result - the nut "galled" on the bolt and froze solid. I could not remove the nut except by shearing the bolt. I didn't tighten particularly fast, either, so although there was some friction heating, it was not abnormal. Substituting a regular steel AN365 nut solved the problem - it behaved perfectly normally. Likewise, substituting a steel AN3 bolt for the SS bolt and using a stainless nut gave no problem. A generous coat of Boelube solid wax lubricant allowed the stainless nut and bolt to work together. Now "everybody" in my previous life (high temperature chemical and electrochemical technology) knew better than to use stainless-on- stainless threaded fasteners because of this very same galling phenomenon, but it just did not occur to me that it would be a problem, especially at room temperature. Talk about forgetting lessons learned! Solution: use a steel AN365 nut and accept the miniscule magnetic field it causes. BTW, the nut wighs about 2 g and the bolt about 4 g. I'm thinking that there's not any significant dissimilar metal corrosion problem - the difference is much smaller than steel vs aluminum. Boelube would work for the first few SS-on-SS assembly/disassembly cycles, but it could conceivably dry out or be removed by repeated assembly and disassembly and lose its protective film. Somebody else down the line could also use new SS hardware and not know... FWIW John Ackerman 40458 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:13 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: 51% Committee Meeting From: "John W. Cox" Due to Presidents Day next Monday, the 51% Committee convened by FAA order 1110.143, is being held in Bend, OR at the offices of Epic LT on Tuesday, February 27th and again on Wednesday, February 28th. Out of courtesy to those RV-10 builders who do not find the outcome of importance on this list, Please email me direct if you have further interest in hearing of the resolution of rewriting this archaic regulation which has allowed mass production by individual builders. Just make the Subject Line - 51% Project. I can take it offline like it has been handled by the previous two meetings. John Cox Legislative Affairs - Oregon Pilots Association ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:35 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!! Other than an EAA rep, and several FAA reps, there is Dave Saylor who is one of the few true builders, (non kit manufacturers). Dave has asked on this list for your opinions and posted his address so you could keep informed. At least the wolves only go after the weakest hens when guarding the roost. Now when was the last time VAN, or Joe or Rick asked what builders wanted to protect the builder's interests with this unique pursuit. I think they just might already know what is in their own self-interests and they believe that is in ours as well. FAA Order 1110.143 dated 07/26/2006 National ARC Policy - Amateur-Built initiated by AIR-230 Frank Paskiewicz FAA Manager Earl Lawrence, EAA Vice President of Industry - (Co Chairman) Richard Van Grunsven - VANS Aircraft (Co-Chairman) engineering2@vansaircraft.com Rick Schrameck - Epic LT rickschrameck@cox.net David Saylor - AirCrafters Dave@airCraftersLLC.com Joe Bartels - Lancair International JoeB@lancair.com The condition of the kit manufacturers is quite healthy, Thank you for asking. Sales are brisk. Each of you should already know who is on the panel, what is being discussed and what they are proposing. Or just sleep tight tonight cause the roost is well guarded. Wouldn't it be cute to have a custom EAA dash plate which read "The majority of construction of this aircraft you are about to fly in has been built by individuals I have no knowledge of from an unidentified country other than the US of A." John Cox #40600 Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R. Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 6:42 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!! SO here is a thought on this, how can the FAA be expected to review the employment condition of every person that applies for an airworthiness certificate? We all complain about how much oversight they have now, and the associated costs. You want to see fee's go through the roof, add an additional administrative overhead to the process and see how much more money it costs us, and how much additional time will be added to the review/paperwork process? Not saying the system does not need to be re-worked, but we need to figure out how to fix it, and I personally do not think that by having vendors on the committee, we the builders are being looked out for. I would like to ask John Cox who else is on the panel, and who is representing "all of us?" those with the money who vote? Dan N289DT ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:09 PM PST US From: Subject: RV10-List: infinity grips I have purchased the Infinity grips for my RV-10. The guy who is helping build it is a retired airline pilot. He has a concern that there is so much stuff on the grip that more could go wrong and ergonomics such as moving the hat for trim is awkward. Advised to go with simple wood grips with Push to talk and auto-pilot disconnect only. He knows alot more than I do about flying. Recommendations??? Wood grip suppliers? Jim ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:21 PM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RE: RV10-List: infinity grips Infinity is awesome. People who I know who have tried them out wouldn't think of going back. I haven't heard anybody complain about them at all. Just make sure to angle them towards the outside hand so it is comfortable to hold. Trims are comfortable, everything is at your fingertips (3 trims, flaps, PTT, A/P disc and an extra that could be boost pump through a relay - I hook them up to cockpit lights for night flying). Wouldn't have it any other way. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gorejr@bellsouth.net Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 7:34 PM Subject: RV10-List: infinity grips I have purchased the Infinity grips for my RV-10. The guy who is helping build it is a retired airline pilot. He has a concern that there is so much stuff on the grip that more could go wrong and ergonomics such as moving the hat for trim is awkward. Advised to go with simple wood grips with Push to talk and auto-pilot disconnect only. He knows alot more than I do about flying. Recommendations??? Wood grip suppliers? Jim -- 5:40 PM ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:33 PM PST US From: John Ackerman Subject: Re: RV10-List: SS fastener galling Any chance you got a nut with a different thread count per inch than the bolt? Very little. Several bolts and nuts were used, all were 1/4" -28tpi (AN3, 10-32) purpose bought from ACS. Besides, thread mismatch shows up earlier in the tightening process, and allows one to back the nut off. Here, both nut and bolt worked fine with their carbon steel equivalents. Finally, lubricant stopped the problem, at least temporarily. > I have used the Lowes Depot variety of SS nuts and bolts together > tons of times with no problems. Maybe they just have a bit more > "slop" > than what you are using. I think you're right about the "slop" in non-aviation consumer hardware. The galling problem occurs with other metals where the two threaded parts are made of the same stuff, but SS is far worse than non- stainless steel. I think it's related to the poor "machineability" of most stainless steels - they tend to become plastic, or "gummy" under severe localized stresses. We would almost always purposely make the two threaded parts of different materials, or would avoid threads entirely in favor of other connecting means where galling was a problem. Our experience with SS galling involved equipment run at high temperatures (350=B0-650=B0C, or about 575=B0 to 1200=B0F). in that case, we could frequently assemble OK, but be unable to disassemble after a heating cycle. It didn't take long for it to become SOP to avoid stainless-on-stainless threads. Today's experience points out that galling can be a problem at room temperature, too. What happens, I believe, is that drag causes heating on a microscopic scale. The metal becomes very plastic locally, and the two parts conform to each other and stick, causing even worse heating on a micro scale. The whole thing gets stuck because a lot of the gross thread area has very good contact - and excellent adhesion because the crystal structures of both parts are essentially identical. Backing off does not help once this positive feedback process gets started. A really sloppy fit leaves lots of non-adhering surface (gaps), so the problem is not so bad. Also, appropriate lubricant or anti-seize compound keeps the two surfaces from intimate contact. John Ackerman 40458 fuselage On Feb 16, 2007, at 12:56 PM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: > > > Any chance you got a nut with a different thread count per inch > than the > bolt? I personally have never run across this before and it sounds > very > odd. I have used the Lowes Depot variety of SS nuts and bolts > together > tons of times with no problems. Maybe they just have a bit more > "slop" > than what you are using. > > Michael Sausen > -10 #352 Limbo > Do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John > Ackerman > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 1:28 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: SS fastener galling > > > I want to install a magnetometer shelf behind the baggage > compartment , bolting it to the longerons with AN3 hardware. > > I ordered the appropriate stainless steel bolts, nuts, and washers; > placed the first set in the first hole, and began tightening. The nut > tightened up early, long before reaching the end of the threads, and > could not be backed off. I finally had to twist hard enough to shear > the bolt in order to remove it. > > Experimenting with a SS bolt held in the shop vise gave the same > result - the nut "galled" on the bolt and froze solid. I could not > remove the nut except by shearing the bolt. I didn't tighten > particularly fast, either, so although there was some friction > heating, it was not abnormal. Substituting a regular steel AN365 nut > solved the problem - it behaved perfectly normally. Likewise, > substituting a steel AN3 bolt for the SS bolt and using a stainless > nut gave no problem. A generous coat of Boelube solid wax lubricant > allowed the stainless nut and bolt to work together. > > Now "everybody" in my previous life (high temperature chemical and > electrochemical technology) knew better than to use stainless-on- > stainless threaded fasteners because of this very same galling > phenomenon, but it just did not occur to me that it would be a > problem, especially at room temperature. Talk about forgetting > lessons learned! > > Solution: use a steel AN365 nut and accept the miniscule magnetic > field it causes. BTW, the nut wighs about 2 g and the bolt about 4 > g. I'm thinking that there's not any significant dissimilar metal > corrosion problem - the difference is much smaller than steel vs > aluminum. > Boelube would work for the first few SS-on-SS assembly/disassembly > cycles, but it could conceivably dry out or be removed by repeated > assembly and disassembly and lose its protective film. Somebody else > down the line could also use new SS hardware and not know... > > FWIW > John Ackerman 40458 > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:34 PM PST US From: GenGrumpy@aol.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: infinity grips Jim, I have them installed with specific functions set to each. I would not trade mine for a simple PTT and autopilot disconnect any day....... But then again, I am biased based on my past experience. grumpy do not archive In a message dated 2/16/2007 6:38:49 PM Central Standard Time, gorejr@bellsouth.net writes: I have purchased the Infinity grips for my RV-10. The guy who is helping build it is a retired airline pilot. He has a concern that there is so much stuff on the grip that more could go wrong and ergonomics such as moving the hat for trim is awkward. Advised to go with simple wood grips with Push to talk and auto-pilot disconnect only. He knows alot more than I do about flying. Recommendations??? Wood grip suppliers? Jim ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:36 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: infinity grips Yeah, like he said... They're just fantastic. If anything, I wish it had just one or two more switches available. Ergonomics are just fine. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Jesse Saint wrote: > > Infinity is awesome. People who I know who have tried them out wouldn't > think of going back. I haven't heard anybody complain about them at all. > Just make sure to angle them towards the outside hand so it is comfortable > to hold. Trims are comfortable, everything is at your fingertips (3 trims, > flaps, PTT, A/P disc and an extra that could be boost pump through a relay - > I hook them up to cockpit lights for night flying). Wouldn't have it any > other way. > > Jesse Saint > Saint Aviation, Inc. > jesse@saintaviation.com > www.saintaviation.com > Cell: 352-427-0285 > Fax: 815-377-3694 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > gorejr@bellsouth.net > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 7:34 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: infinity grips > > > I have purchased the Infinity grips for my RV-10. The guy who is helping > build it is a retired airline pilot. He has a concern that there is so much > stuff on the grip that more could go wrong and ergonomics such as moving the > hat for trim is awkward. Advised to go with simple wood grips with Push to > talk and auto-pilot disconnect only. He knows alot more than I do about > flying. Recommendations??? Wood grip suppliers? Jim > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:05 PM PST US From: "Jesse Saint" Subject: RV10-List: CAD Drawings Does anybody have a link where I can download CAD drawings of common instrument panel items, like switches, breakers and namely, the standard Mag switch? Is there a library anyway like the Aero Electric one for electrical drawings? By the way, I'm using TurboCAD. I do have a bunch of items that I have drawn myself, which people are welcome to use if they need to. Contact me offline if you need something and I will let you know if I have it. Thanks. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:56 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: infinity grips From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." It was a toss up for me, and after trying several I really liked the CH products sticks, of course I have been using their joysticks and yokes for many years at home game flying so I could be biased, but I love the ones they made for me. Dan N289DT -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gorejr@bellsouth.net Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 7:34 PM Subject: RV10-List: infinity grips I have purchased the Infinity grips for my RV-10. The guy who is helping build it is a retired airline pilot. He has a concern that there is so much stuff on the grip that more could go wrong and ergonomics such as moving the hat for trim is awkward. Advised to go with simple wood grips with Push to talk and auto-pilot disconnect only. He knows alot more than I do about flying. Recommendations??? Wood grip suppliers? Jim ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:46 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: RV10-List: CAD Drawings I hope someone has these I just have to use my calipers and the actual part. Noel _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 8:23 PM Subject: RV10-List: CAD Drawings Does anybody have a link where I can download CAD drawings of common instrument panel items, like switches, breakers and namely, the standard Mag switch? Is there a library anyway like the Aero Electric one for electrical drawings? By the way, I'm using TurboCAD. I do have a bunch of items that I have drawn myself, which people are welcome to use if they need to. Contact me offline if you need something and I will let you know if I have it. Thanks. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com www.saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.