Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:40 AM - Re: Electrical System Critique (John Testement)
2. 08:11 AM - What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (James Hein)
3. 08:36 AM - Boost Pump & Filter (Jesse Saint)
4. 08:47 AM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (Tim Olson)
5. 08:50 AM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (rv10builder)
6. 08:55 AM - Re: Boost Pump & Filter ()
7. 10:22 AM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (Bruce Patton)
8. 03:16 PM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (Rob Kermanj)
9. 04:10 PM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (Larry Rosen)
10. 04:13 PM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (Larry Rosen)
11. 04:18 PM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (Larry Rosen)
12. 04:29 PM - Crossbow vs Pinpoint (Indran Chelvanayagam)
13. 04:57 PM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (linn Walters)
14. 05:02 PM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (linn Walters)
15. 05:13 PM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (zackrv8)
16. 05:35 PM - Re: Crossbow vs Pinpoint (Tim Olson)
17. 05:53 PM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (Matt Reeves)
18. 05:57 PM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (Matt Reeves)
19. 06:03 PM - Re: Boost Pump & Filter (John W. Cox)
20. 06:08 PM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (John W. Cox)
21. 06:32 PM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (John W. Cox)
22. 06:37 PM - Re: Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (John W. Cox)
23. 06:54 PM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (John W. Cox)
24. 06:54 PM - "Experimental" Mark Inquiry (Deems Davis)
25. 07:07 PM - Re: "Experimental" Mark Inquiry (Jesse Saint)
26. 07:49 PM - Re: Electrical System Critique (GenGrumpy@aol.com)
27. 08:18 PM - Re: "Experimental" Mark Inquiry (Deems Davis)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Electrical System Critique |
John, Larry
I also liked the idea of 2 same size batteries (17ah) and an annual
swap.
The concern I ran into was if you use one for cranking and the other for
the
start-up avionics, I would have only half the cranking power that I
would
have had with the one 25ah battery. According to Tim, you want to start
up
your Cheltons as well as your engine monitor before cranking and you do
not
want to have these or the e. ignition on the cranking battery (will
re-boot
the Cheltons and this takes some time). If I tie the two 17ah batteries
together for cranking then I have tied the avionics to the cranking
batteries. This led me to having one larger cranking battery and one
smaller battery for start-up avionics, e. ign., and essential bus
backup. Is
there an option I am missing here?
I dropped the idea of a second alternator after discussions with several
people. The main reason is that if I have any electrical failure, I am
going
to land as soon as possible. I do not need a second alternator to take
me
to the end of my fuel endurance (might be a dangerous temptation to keep
going). With 2 quality RG batteries I should get about 1 1/2 hours of
backup
(plus my AFS3400 internal battery - 1 hr.). This should easily get me to
an
airport or instrument approach if IFR. The other reason was the cost of
the
accessory pad back up alternator - about $1,000.
I don't want to sound like I am any kind of expert or know the right
answer.
So please challenge my thinking.
Couple of issues I am struggling over now:
1) Lightspeed suggest that you run a 18awg shielded power wire to a
breaker
and then all the way back to the battery. I am resisting this, thinking
of
running the shielded wire to the breaker, then the 2nd battery bus at
the
panel, I am not sure that I will not get ignition noise if I do this.
What
have others done and what has been your experience with ignition noise?
2) I can't decide if I should put a switch between the 2nd battery and
the
ebus alternate feed (see attached schematic).
3) Still looking for a good 12-17ah small/light 2nd battery.
Thanks for all the inputs
John Testement
HYPERLINK "mailto:jwt@roadmapscoaching.com"jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
FWF, engine, wiring
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]
Hi John,
I am also struggling with this design and am probably two steps behind
you.
I like the way you have laid yours out, combining physical location with
the
electrical diagram. This helps me conceptualise.
My own thoughts are not dissimilar to yours with a couple of variations.
I
am keen to bullet proof my electrical system so at a conceptual level
what I
am thinking is as follows:-
* Two batteries of equal size so you can change them out
alternately
and always have a relatively new battery for the avionics/endurance
buss.
Two 17AH batteries should suffice
* Run two fairly equal size busses, one with the main airframe
electrics as you have done, the second with the critical to flight
safety
avionics etc. The critical to flight safety buss might be on two busses,
an
avionics buss and an endurance buss. To balance out the busses I am
considering putting the engine monitor system on the main power buss
because
I want it for engine start and if I lose a circuit I figure I can live
without this for the time it takes to sort out what has happened and
what I
need to do. If necessary, completing the rest of the flight without it
is
probably OK if not desirable. As pointed out, most items on the main
buss
are separately switched, so after things settle you can switch as
desired to
get back what you can afford to carry.
* Set the batteries up so you can choose to run either battery
with
either circuit. If both batteries are down the back, this creates a
problem
with added wire weight to my mind, because you need to run three 4AWG
wires
from the back if you plan to use both batteries to crank, and two 4AWG
plus
1 2AWG if you plan to use one battery to crank. We live in Australia so
we
don=92t get the freezing conditions where I plan to do most my flying,
so I
like the idea of using the older battery on the power circuit, using it
to
crank the engine on its own, and at the first sign of not doing that
task
well, change that battery out for a new one and rotate batteries. I
recognize that this approach won=92t suit all situations. I would like
to put
the main battery up the front so I can run very short wires from it to
crank
the engine, but I am not sure yet whether this is appropriate from a
weight
and balance perspective. I do like Jesse Saint=92s logic from a weight
and
balance perspective with doing this.
* Install two alternators which are switched to run either/or,
not
both because of the complexity associated with trying to get both
alternators working at the same time, plus I think it is better
redundancy
planning this way.
* Run one electronic and one mag ignition as you have done, so
that
in the absolute worse case scenario the engine keeps running on the mag.
* No vacuum system because of their weight and inherent
unreliability.
* Run over voltage protection on both alternators because of the
damage that can be done to everything without it.
That=92s about where I am with my thinking at this stage and I am now
ready to
move to the more detailed planning phase.
Would you please post an ACAD version of your layout if you have one?
Thanks very much for kicking this thread off, it is very helpful.
John Cleary
(finishing wings, started fuse)
--
2/16/2007
Message 2
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| Subject: | What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
I am going to finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of you are
already passed this particular level of hell.
My question is: What "starter kit" would you recommend for doing the
tail fairings and wingtips?
I plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I order with
it? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or fast)?
-Jim 40384
Message 3
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| Subject: | Boost Pump & Filter |
This came up yesterday when a list member called me. It is quite a pain in
the neck to get all of those little short lines between the filter and pump,
then from the pump to the floscan. We realized that it would be easy to
rearrange the brackets on the tunnel floor so all 3 of these parts are
directly aligned. That way the lines between them are just straight stubs
of line with flared ends. Is there a reason that this is not a good idea?
It is not a difficult modification, but I want to know if I am missing
something.
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
You will go through a LOT of West System stuff throughout the
project. If I'd have known earlier, I would have ordered at least
the mid-sized cans...but instead I had lots of orders of the small
sized cans.
This was what I started with:
Quantity
(2) of 105-A (1qt resin)
(2) 205-A (hardener),
(1) 300 Mini Pump Set A,
(1) 403 Microfibers,
(1) 406 Colloidal Silica,
(1) 410 Microlight.
My total was ~ $125.
Use 406 for Thickening (white)
Use 410 Brown Power Mix like Bondo for Filler
You will likely use a lot of 410, and you'll use the 406 a lot when
you're working on the canopy, but not the tip fairings. The 403
is not used as often but is a cheap filler. I would at least start
with the above list, but maybe up the quantity right away to 2 of the
410's.
I think by the time I was all done, I probably used 5 or 6 cans
of resin and hardener, probably 1 or 2 403's, at least 2 406's,
and 3 or maybe even 4 of the 410's. I'm sure with good efficiency
you can finish a plane with less, but I did many batches and did
lots of filling on things like the canopy doorposts and stuff
that made it turn out nice and smooth. The 410 will be fantastic
stuff for filling the fiberglass tips and surface dings. Better
than bondo type stuff most of the time. For cloth, you will
need some of the E-Glass for under the windshield area, but
there isn't a lot of need for other cloths in most cases, unless
you're going beyond the plans, which some people do.
As far as the slow or fast, I can't remember which step it was,
the windshield fairing or the doors, but there was at least
one time when it was nice to have the opposite of what I
listed above. I think that's 206 if I remember right. But
I only had one can of that.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
James Hein wrote:
>
> I am going to finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of you are
> already passed this particular level of hell.
>
> My question is: What "starter kit" would you recommend for doing the
> tail fairings and wingtips?
> I plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I order with
> it? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or fast)?
>
> -Jim 40384
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
Check this out:
http://www.rvpilot.com/Fiberglass/fiberglass.html
Brian
#40308
James Hein wrote:
>
> I am going to finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of you
> are already passed this particular level of hell.
>
> My question is: What "starter kit" would you recommend for doing the
> tail fairings and wingtips?
> I plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I order with
> it? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or fast)?
>
> -Jim 40384
>
>
> .
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Boost Pump & Filter |
Would you worry about thermal expansion of the straight sections putting stress
on the connections. At least those runs with bends in them have something to
flex slightly.
Getting the straight pieces cut exactly the right length might also be tougher
to do.
Jim C
N312F - Finish Kit (Still!)
===========================================================
From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@saintaviation.com>
Subject: RV10-List: Boost Pump & Filter
This came up yesterday when a list member called me. It is quite a pain in
the neck to get all of those little short lines between the filter and pump,
then from the pump to the floscan. We realized that it would be easy to
rearrange the brackets on the tunnel floor so all 3 of these parts are
directly aligned. That way the lines between them are just straight stubs
of line with flared ends. Is there a reason that this is not a good idea?
It is not a difficult modification, but I want to know if I am missing
something.
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
===========================================================
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
That is a Masters Degree in dreaded fiberglass. The think that keeps it fr
om being a PhD is he left out the sanding of the part that to which the fib
erglass will be applied. Without that, you may have a wonderful mold of t
he part when the new glass peals off the old.=0A=0ABruce Patton=0A=0A=0A---
-- Original Message ----=0AFrom: rv10builder <rv10builder@bellsouth.net>=0A
=0ASubject: Re: RV10-List: What starter materials for fiberglass would you
r@bellsouth.net>=0A=0ACheck this out:=0A=0Ahttp://www.rvpilot.com/Fiberglas
s/fiberglass.html=0A=0ABrian=0A#40308=0A=0A=0AJames Hein wrote:=0A> --> RV1
0-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim@arrl.net>=0A>=0A> I am going to
finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of you =0A> are already pas
sed this particular level of hell.=0A>=0A> My question is: What "starter ki
t" would you recommend for doing the =0A> tail fairings and wingtips?=0A> I
plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I order with =0A> i
t? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or fast)?=0A>=0A>
=========================0A
-========================
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
Use West System 401 Filler. It is a brown color, light weight filler
that sands well. 4oz. weight cloth should take care of all your non
structural needs. If you need something heavier, you can add several
layers.
do not archive.
On Feb 17, 2007, at 11:07 AM, James Hein wrote:
>
> I am going to finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of you
> are already passed this particular level of hell.
>
> My question is: What "starter kit" would you recommend for doing
> the tail fairings and wingtips?
> I plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I order
> with it? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or
> fast)?
>
> -Jim 40384
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
Popsicle sticks
Those metal brushes that plumbers use
plastic squeegees that are use with bondo
consider glass bubbles, cab-o-sil and flocked cotton in lieu of the West
fillers.
Lots of sand paper
Consider Perma-Grit sanding blocks. Contour Block, flat sanding block
with fine on one side and course on the other, they also have bits that
can go in your die grinder.
Larry
#356
Rob Kermanj wrote:
>
> Use West System 401 Filler. It is a brown color, light weight filler
> that sands well. 4oz. weight cloth should take care of all your non
> structural needs. If you need something heavier, you can add several
> layers.
>
> do not archive.
>
> On Feb 17, 2007, at 11:07 AM, James Hein wrote:
>
>>
>> I am going to finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of you
>> are already passed this particular level of hell.
>>
>> My question is: What "starter kit" would you recommend for doing the
>> tail fairings and wingtips?
>> I plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I order with
>> it? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or fast)?
>>
>> -Jim 40384
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
Popsicle sticks
Those metal brushes that plumbers use
plastic squeegees that are use with bondo
consider glass bubbles, cab-o-sil and flocked cotton in lieu of the West
fillers.
Lots of sand paper
Consider Perma-Grit sanding blocks. Contour Block, flat sanding block
with fine on one side and course on the other, they also have bits that
can go in your die grinder.
Larry
#356
Rob Kermanj wrote:
>
> Use West System 401 Filler. It is a brown color, light weight filler
> that sands well. 4oz. weight cloth should take care of all your non
> structural needs. If you need something heavier, you can add several
> layers.
>
> do not archive.
>
> On Feb 17, 2007, at 11:07 AM, James Hein wrote:
>
>>
>> I am going to finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of you
>> are already passed this particular level of hell.
>>
>> My question is: What "starter kit" would you recommend for doing the
>> tail fairings and wingtips?
>> I plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I order with
>> it? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or fast)?
>>
>> -Jim 40384
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
Popsicle sticks
Those metal brushes that plumbers use
plastic squeegees that are use with bondo
consider glass bubbles, cab-o-sil and flocked cotton in lieu of the West
fillers.
Lots of sand paper
Consider Perma-Grit sanding blocks. Contour Block, flat sanding block
with fine on one side and course on the other, they also have bits that
can go in your die grinder.
Larry
#356
Rob Kermanj wrote:
>
> Use West System 401 Filler. It is a brown color, light weight filler
> that sands well. 4oz. weight cloth should take care of all your non
> structural needs. If you need something heavier, you can add several
> layers.
>
> do not archive.
>
> On Feb 17, 2007, at 11:07 AM, James Hein wrote:
>
>>
>> I am going to finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of you
>> are already passed this particular level of hell.
>>
>> My question is: What "starter kit" would you recommend for doing the
>> tail fairings and wingtips?
>> I plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I order with
>> it? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or fast)?
>>
>> -Jim 40384
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Crossbow vs Pinpoint |
Guys, as part of the D2A recovery package from Lancair avionics, I've been
offered the choice between a Pinpoint and a Crossbow 425EX AHRS (Crossbow is
cheaper)
I realise that Crossbow had problems with this model, but they claim to have
fixed them all
On the other hand, Pinpoint is a relatively "new" (and small?) company, with
strong ties to D2A.
What are the experiences regarding installing & flying these different
units?
Indran
#40228
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
Good info there! I might add ...... the rotary cutter can be had from
any good crafts store. While you're there, get a box of popsicle sticks
..... works better than the tongue depressors. For squeegees, I use old
plastic credit cards, hotel room cards ..... you get the picture.
Linn
new owner of 40118
rv10builder wrote:
>
> Check this out:
>
> http://www.rvpilot.com/Fiberglass/fiberglass.html
>
> Brian
> #40308
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
The problems with peeling or separating are usually due to not cleaning
all the sanding dust after sanding. The epoxies are unlike polyester
resins that have wax that rises to the surface and produces the
'shine'. I've not had any problems adding epoxy resin on epoxy rexin
without sanding in between. But then I just may have been lucky! :-)
Linn
Bruce Patton wrote:
> That is a Masters Degree in dreaded fiberglass. The think that keeps
> it from being a PhD is he left out the sanding of the part that to
> which the fiberglass will be applied. Without that, you may have a
> wonderful mold of the part when the new glass peals off the old.
>
> Bruce Patton
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: rv10builder <rv10builder@bellsouth.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 8:48:17 AM
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: What starter materials for fiberglass would
> you recommend?
>
>
> Check this out:
>
> http://www.rvpilot.com/Fiberglass/fiberglass.html
>
> Brian
> #40308
>
>
> James Hein wrote:
> >
> > I am going to finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of you
> > are already passed this particular level of hell.
> >
> > My question is: What "starter kit" would you recommend for doing the
> > tail fairings and wingtips?
> > I plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I order with
> > it? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or fast)?
> >
> > -Jim 40384
> >
> >
> >
> > sp; - The RV10-List Email Forum
> -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Li - NEW MATRONICS==
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
Jim,
In addition to what everyone else stated, one of the best tools that you can
own while working with fiberglass is a good air sander. After 7 years and many,
many paint jobs, I highly recommend the Dual Action (DA)AirVantage sander.
It is bullet proof and very easy to use.
(http://www.autobodystore.com/tools.htm).
A good air sander will knock down the epoxy and fiberglass very easily in no
time with the right grit on it. I recommend a box of each...40, 80, 120, 220,
and 320. These grits are just for the fiberglass and primer work. Painting
is a different story!
Zack
n8vim(at)arrl.net wrote:
> I am going to finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of you are
> already passed this particular level of hell.
>
> My question is: What "starter kit" would you recommend for doing the
> tail fairings and wingtips?
> I plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I order with
> it? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or fast)?
>
> -Jim 40384
--------
RV8 #80125
RV10 # 40512
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p-754#95754
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Crossbow vs Pinpoint |
Indran,
You won't find much on the list yet for experiences from people flying
with pinpoints, as I think I and Vic the only ones who are, in an RV-10.
There are some other models of aircraft flying the pinpoint though.
Having flown them both, I have some experience behind both of them with
about 70 hours on the crossbow and 125 on the pinpoint. If Crossbow
has all of the bugs completely worked out, which right now I would say
still needs the test of time, then I think you could really use either.
This isn't to say that I don't trust the product, because they have
been much more forthcoming with information in recent months. I just
think we need to see it re-develop a track record...different than
the one it had previously developed. There's no reason why that
unit couldn't be acceptable. The largest more recent problems were
caused by issues with the GPS aiding that were supposedly fixed in
software, so it very well could be good now.
So, lets assume they are both good...then what?
Well, the pinpoint will be a bit easier to install and does include
some benefits as well.
1) It has a remote magnetometer which allows easier mounting in
a magnetically stable location. It is actually quite hard to
find a good location for the 425, because the best I could do
at the time was above the battery, and it doesn't really get
as far out of the area of the battery and AP servo for me to
feel as comfortable with it.
2) The pinpoint comes with its own air data computer, and its
highly accurate. It has been flown next to a known and tested
air data unit in my plane that was also accurate to within 7'
of altitude, and the airspeed on the 2 units matches perfectly
too. So even if you have a 2nd air data system, you now have
multiple systems that you can compare for data.
3) The algorithm within the pinpoint is not at all GPS dependent.
In fact, the GPS is not internally connected at all to the AHRS,
so you will never develop attitude related issues due to GPS
signal loss. I have also tested mine by disconnecting in various
ways the pitot and static lines during turning flight and that
does not upset it either, so it should be very reliable.
4) The pinpoint does have a superior mounting and alignment software
function. You can mount it oriented in any of the 4 directions,
so you're not tied to one specific installation, and in fact you
can mount it under the panel. And due to it's configuration
software on the Chelton, you don't have to be as precise in regards
to the level as others. The calibration procedure is accurate
and much easier, and can be done without a PC...all from the
screen.
The downside to the pinpoint is really the delivery. I don't
know any of the recent specifics as to shipping time, but I'm
sure you could get a Crossbow in short order, where you may
wait 30-60 days I'd suppose for the pinpoint.
As for your comment about strong ties to D2A, I won't go too
into it on this forum, but whereas the pinpoint was perhaps
strongly tied to D2A before, that's just because they were
the only distributor. In fact, today I would say that
there are no companies with "strong ties" to D2A, because
Chelton itself is distributing the pinpoint, and they are also
involved in suing D2A....so there are no warm fuzzies even
by them for the people at D2A. Products are products, and
should be judged on their product quality. Politics aren't
really things that enhance the ability to choose the right
product. There were lots of bad things happening by multiple
parties a year ago. At present, I think the real bad eggs
are now expunged and what's left is the same products being
offered, but from a more reliable source. And Crossbow has
really whipped themselves into a good playing team too...so
you really can't go too awful wrong today.
What you really should do is dig in though on the Chelton
EFIS forum at http://www.CheltonEFISpilots.com, because there
you should be able to ask these questions and get responses
from a much higher number of people who can respond with
actual in-flight experience with either. With either
system, make sure you do a real "by the book" install
and you'll likely have success. The pinpoint just makes
the job easier by it's design. Hopefully we'll eventually
see a similar unit available by another manufacturer like
Crossbow, as the design itself is much easier to work with.
For the small price difference today though, I myself
would choose the pinpoint if I was in your shoes.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Indran Chelvanayagam wrote:
> Guys, as part of the D2A recovery package from Lancair avionics, I've
> been offered the choice between a Pinpoint and a Crossbow 425EX AHRS
> (Crossbow is cheaper)
>
> I realise that Crossbow had problems with this model, but they claim to
> have fixed them all
> On the other hand, Pinpoint is a relatively "new" (and small?) company,
> with strong ties to D2A.
>
> What are the experiences regarding installing & flying these different
> units?
>
> Indran
> #40228
>
> *
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
Jim,
Bruce is right. I built a Lancair and taught my brother all I know about fiberglass
for his RV-7A. The number 1 thing to remember is cleanliness. Lance
- designer of Lancair always said, "If it ain't clean, it ain't gunna stick."
You MUST scratch up good the area that needs to be bonded and I mean with 40-80
grit and then vacuum it good, then acetone or MEK with a clean cloth, then
sand 40-80 grit again (because wiping with acetone may have spread dirt or residue
into the scratches). Use a paint brush and paint some mixed up resin onto
the clean scratched up surface. Not a lot, just enough to get it wet.
(This should already be done and waiting) - Fiberglass is a woven cloth. You'll
almost always use the weave like small XXX's to get the most strength - what
this means when you unravel the roll of fiberglass you get from Aircraft Spruce
or wherever, you will cut strips of it on a 45 degree angle - ususally about
2 inches wide - or whatever you need) Do the layup as the link suggests -
although I don't use a sponge to saturate, I just pour it on there and spread
it out with my paint brush - I think the sponge might offer some contaminates
but whatever works. Put plastic on the top and I use a long screw I got from
Home Depot but Aircraft Spruce now has a tool that looks like a miniature rolling
pin but it's grooved like a screw. Get it. Don't push too hard or not hard
enough. You just want to squeeze out excess resin - that's it - if it gets
white, you took out too much resin - put more back in. When you apply the sandwich,
make sure you peel off the plastic.
Sounds stupid but EVERYONE has done it. Use a colored plastic to remind you.
When applied, use your long 4-6 inch screw or tool from ACS and push out as
many air bubbles as you can without pushing out too much resin. You can do you
over and over. If it's starting to cure, and you can't push out anymore, I
use a pin to poke the air bubble until it escapes.
I had a reaction to West System and switched to Jeffco which Aircraft Spruce
sells. It is clear to greenish and has no smell. I like it better. The MOST
important thing is the mixing ratio has to be perfect. After you have your mixture,
you can do whatever you want with it - saturate the cloth, mix up micro,
flox, or whatever. There are no set amounts of the fillers so if you want
micro wet and runny, use less - if you want strength and less pinholes, use 90%
micro bubbles and 10% cabosil - which looks like sugar but it contains some
particles to prevent micro from sagging on vertical surfaces, but it also helps
prevent pinholes somewhat.
You will always have pinholes. There is some cool new stuff now called rage
that is a cool filler guaranteed not to have pinholes but you'll still get a few.
You asked about slow and fast hardeners. Use slow until you get the hang of
it. But definately the factor on both is temperature. 70-75 is ideal. Never
let mixed up resin sit around while you do something else. It will exotherm
or boil and gets hot, smokes, and stinks. When you mix it up, get to it. There
is no stopping resin from curing so if the phone rings, forget it - even if
it's the Million dollar sweepstakes notifying you are a winner!
Have a garbage can ready. Acetone will clean up messes pretty good.
There's a thousand things I could tell you. Making the layup is just one step.
Filling it is a whole other ball game. Never use filler over cured fiberglass
without sanding and cleaning just as before - this time using about 120-180
grit. Make sure the clear appearance is gone. Clean with acetone, sand, vacuum
and paint wet resin and apply filler. I use a razor blade to push it down
into all the holes well without a lot of left over sanding to do.
Here's a trick to save you some time. Use peel-ply exactly like a layer of glass.
Make sure you have it on the TOP and not the bottom when you apply the
layup. When cured, simply peel it off and no sanding or cleaning is necessary
to apply more layers of fiberglass OR apply filler - still paint a thin layer
of wet resin on it though if you need to fill.
When mostly done, ONLY use 3M foam sanding blocks. Spray glue 100-180 grit
to it. I'd use at least a 1 foot block and no less than 6 inches. Spray some
crappy black spray paint on it - let it dry and sand at 45 degrees and then
90. You are looking for high and low spots. You will sand off high and the paint
will show the low. Don't ruin the fiberglass by sanding too low just to
get rid of the low spots. Sand and fill those spots with micro - micro/flox if
they are deeper.
Anyway, I hope this helps a little. My brother Danny (RV-7A) has a nice write
up and description of the entire process with good pictures and it has some
good pointers. I'll find that and send it to you too.
Good luck.
WEAR a mask.
Matt Reeves
Rochester, NY
Bruce Patton <bpattonsoa@yahoo.com> wrote:
That is a Masters Degree in dreaded fiberglass. The think that keeps
it from being a PhD is he left out the sanding of the part that to which the
fiberglass will be applied. Without that, you may have a wonderful mold of the
part when the new glass peals off the old.
Bruce Patton
----- Original Message ----
From: rv10builder <rv10builder@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 8:48:17 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend?
Check this out:
http://www.rvpilot.com/Fiberglass/fiberglass.html
Brian
#40308
James Hein wrote:
>
> I am going to finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of you
> are already passed this particular level of hell.
>
> My question is: What "starter kit" would you recommend for doing the
> tail fairings and wingtips?
> I plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I order with
> it? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or fast)?
>
> -Jim 40384
>
>
> sp; - The RV10-List Email Forum -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Li - NEW MATRONICS==
---------------------------------
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
Here's an AWESOME link I promised.
Very well written. Definately applies to RV's too.
Have a great day.
FINISHING A COMPOSITE AIRPLANE LINK:
http://curedcomposites.netfirms.com/finish.html
linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
The problems with peeling or separating are usually due to not cleaning all the
sanding dust after sanding. The epoxies are unlike polyester resins that have
wax that rises to the surface and produces the 'shine'. I've not had any
problems adding epoxy resin on epoxy rexin without sanding in between. But then
I just may have been lucky! :-)
Linn
Bruce Patton wrote:
That is a Masters Degree in dreaded fiberglass. The think that keeps
it from being a PhD is he left out the sanding of the part that to which the
fiberglass will be applied. Without that, you may have a wonderful mold of the
part when the new glass peals off the old.
Bruce Patton
----- Original Message ----
From: rv10builder <rv10builder@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 8:48:17 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend?
Check this out:
http://www.rvpilot.com/Fiberglass/fiberglass.html
Brian
#40308
James Hein wrote:
>
> I am going to finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of you
> are already passed this particular level of hell.
>
> My question is: What "starter kit" would you recommend for doing the
> tail fairings and wingtips?
> I plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I order with
> it? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or fast)?
>
> -Jim 40384
>
>
> sp; - The RV10-List Email Forum -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Li - NEW MATRONICS==
---------------------------------
Message 19
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| Subject: | Boost Pump & Filter |
The AC 43.13 gives the reason for angles and bends in rigid tubing (flex
tubing as well) as a dampener for Flex and improved connection between
two devices that happen to be Inline.
When the B nut or the ferrule chafe from vibration, flex or pressure
change, it is becomes much easier to understand the directive.
John Cox
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 8:34 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Boost Pump & Filter
This came up yesterday when a list member called me. It is quite a pain
in the neck to get all of those little short lines between the filter
and pump, then from the pump to the floscan. We realized that it would
be easy to rearrange the brackets on the tunnel floor so all 3 of these
parts are directly aligned. That way the lines between them are just
straight stubs of line with flared ends. Is there a reason that this is
not a good idea? It is not a difficult modification, but I want to know
if I am missing something.
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
Message 20
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| Subject: | What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
In defense of smaller packaging. Reduced contamination, reduced
oxidation with the larger lid being open, possible tighter inventor
control within the Limitation Date, space management in a small garage.
However, knowing what is needed is highly valuable. Thanks for the
inventory report.
John Cox
Dreaming of Flying
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: What starter materials for fiberglass would you
recommend?
You will go through a LOT of West System stuff throughout the
project. If I'd have known earlier, I would have ordered at least
the mid-sized cans...but instead I had lots of orders of the small
sized cans.
This was what I started with:
Quantity
(2) of 105-A (1qt resin)
(2) 205-A (hardener),
(1) 300 Mini Pump Set A,
(1) 403 Microfibers,
(1) 406 Colloidal Silica,
(1) 410 Microlight.
My total was ~ $125.
Use 406 for Thickening (white)
Use 410 Brown Power Mix like Bondo for Filler
You will likely use a lot of 410, and you'll use the 406 a lot when
you're working on the canopy, but not the tip fairings. The 403
is not used as often but is a cheap filler. I would at least start
with the above list, but maybe up the quantity right away to 2 of the
410's.
I think by the time I was all done, I probably used 5 or 6 cans
of resin and hardener, probably 1 or 2 403's, at least 2 406's,
and 3 or maybe even 4 of the 410's. I'm sure with good efficiency
you can finish a plane with less, but I did many batches and did
lots of filling on things like the canopy doorposts and stuff
that made it turn out nice and smooth. The 410 will be fantastic
stuff for filling the fiberglass tips and surface dings. Better
than bondo type stuff most of the time. For cloth, you will
need some of the E-Glass for under the windshield area, but
there isn't a lot of need for other cloths in most cases, unless
you're going beyond the plans, which some people do.
As far as the slow or fast, I can't remember which step it was,
the windshield fairing or the doors, but there was at least
one time when it was nice to have the opposite of what I
listed above. I think that's 206 if I remember right. But
I only had one can of that.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Message 21
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| Subject: | What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
Visit your local TAP plastics store. They have a waste box (near their
scale)with a cheap source of PVC, Acrylic, Lexan, Cutting board material
and HDPE, Release Film is valuable to buy as well. It is amazing the
things that can be made as tools from scrap. It's usually about $0.50
per pound. I have an assortment of cutting board plastic which astounds
the guys at work. The word is always the same "Where did you get,
That?".
When doing composites, there are lots of shortcuts to the Masters or PHD
of sanding.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: What starter materials for fiberglass would you
recommend?
<pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Good info there! I might add ...... the rotary cutter can be had from
any good crafts store. While you're there, get a box of popsicle sticks
..... works better than the tongue depressors. For squeegees, I use old
plastic credit cards, hotel room cards ..... you get the picture.
Linn
new owner of 40118
rv10builder wrote:
<rv10builder@bellsouth.net>
>
> Check this out:
>
> http://www.rvpilot.com/Fiberglass/fiberglass.html
>
> Brian
> #40308
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
The best tool is a comfortable fitting face mask. Even if your sander
has a discharge bag it can help those respiratory issues at night and
down the road.
Always wear approved barrier gloves with MEK. Clean prudently and
often. We actually wear a Tyvek (painter's) Bunny Suit to keep the
waste dust off our daily duds. Of course we cut the booties off cause
they are such a pain.
We also have a cheap vacuum which has been sacrificed for only composite
work. The stuff that comes out is disgusting material you would not
want down your windpipe.
Don't forget to read Andy Marshall's Book.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of zackrv8
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 5:13 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you
recommend?
Jim,
In addition to what everyone else stated, one of the best tools that
you can own while working with fiberglass is a good air sander. After 7
years and many, many paint jobs, I highly recommend the Dual Action
(DA)AirVantage sander. It is bullet proof and very easy to use.
(http://www.autobodystore.com/tools.htm).
A good air sander will knock down the epoxy and fiberglass very
easily in no time with the right grit on it. I recommend a box of
each...40, 80, 120, 220, and 320. These grits are just for the
fiberglass and primer work. Painting is a different story!
Zack
n8vim(at)arrl.net wrote:
> I am going to finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of you
are
> already passed this particular level of hell.
>
> My question is: What "starter kit" would you recommend for doing the
> tail fairings and wingtips?
> I plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I order with
> it? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or fast)?
>
> -Jim 40384
--------
RV8 #80125
RV10 # 40512
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p-754#95754
Message 23
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| Subject: | What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
Matt, after thirty years of car restoration and yes, aircraft painting.
I can clearly endorse your below post as a treatise for a "Masters in
Fiberglas" in 1,000 words or less (935 to be exact).
RV-10 builders should use this as a roadmap to their diploma's as well.
They may have a little trouble with visualization of some of the
products right now, but in time, they will go Wow, "Matt really knew his
stuff".
Lance was right, if it's not Clean it won't stick. If the air is too
humid, it won't stick. 70-75 the porridge should be just right. That is
air temperature and the temperature of the resin.
John Cox
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Reeves
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: What starter materials for fiberglass would you
recommend?
Jim,
Bruce is right. I built a Lancair and taught my brother all I know
about fiberglass for his RV-7A. The number 1 thing to remember is
cleanliness. Lance - designer of Lancair always said, "If it ain't
clean, it ain't gunna stick." You MUST scratch up good the area that
needs to be bonded and I mean with 40-80 grit and then vacuum it good,
then acetone or MEK with a clean cloth, then sand 40-80 grit again
(because wiping with acetone may have spread dirt or residue into the
scratches). Use a paint brush and paint some mixed up resin onto the
clean scratched up surface. Not a lot, just enough to get it wet.
(This should already be done and waiting) - Fiberglass is a woven cloth.
You'll almost always use the weave like small XXX's to get the most
strength - what this means when you unravel the roll of fiberglass you
get from Aircraft Spruce or wherever, you will cut strips of it on a 45
degree angle - ususally about 2 inches wide - or whatever you need) Do
the layup as the link suggests - although I don't use a sponge to
saturate, I just pour it on there and spread it out with my paint brush
- I think the sponge might offer some contaminates but whatever works.
Put plastic on the top and I use a long screw I got from Home Depot but
Aircraft Spruce now has a tool that looks like a miniature rolling pin
but it's grooved like a screw. Get it. Don't push too hard or not hard
enough. You just want to squeeze out excess resin - that's it - if it
gets white, you took out too much resin - put more back in. When you
apply the sandwich, make sure you peel off the plastic. Sounds stupid
but EVERYONE has done it. Use a colored plastic to remind you. When
applied, use your long 4-6 inch screw or tool from ACS and push out as
many air bubbles as you can without pushing out too much resin. You can
do you over and over. If it's starting to cure, and you can't push out
anymore, I use a pin to poke the air bubble until it escapes.
I had a reaction to West System and switched to Jeffco which Aircraft
Spruce sells. It is clear to greenish and has no smell. I like it
better. The MOST important thing is the mixing ratio has to be perfect.
After you have your mixture, you can do whatever you want with it -
saturate the cloth, mix up micro, flox, or whatever. There are no set
amounts of the fillers so if you want micro wet and runny, use less - if
you want strength and less pinholes, use 90% micro bubbles and 10%
cabosil - which looks like sugar but it contains some particles to
prevent micro from sagging on vertical surfaces, but it also helps
prevent pinholes somewhat.
You will always have pinholes. There is some cool new stuff now called
rage that is a cool filler guaranteed not to have pinholes but you'll
still get a few.
You asked about slow and fast hardeners. Use slow until you get the
hang of it. But definately the factor on both is temperature. 70-75 is
ideal. Never let mixed up resin sit around while you do something else.
It will exotherm or boil and gets hot, smokes, and stinks. When you mix
it up, get to it. There is no stopping resin from curing so if the
phone rings, forget it - even if it's the Million dollar sweepstakes
notifying you are a winner!
Have a garbage can ready. Acetone will clean up messes pretty good.
There's a thousand things I could tell you. Making the layup is just
one step. Filling it is a whole other ball game. Never use filler over
cured fiberglass without sanding and cleaning just as before - this time
using about 120-180 grit. Make sure the clear appearance is gone.
Clean with acetone, sand, vacuum and paint wet resin and apply filler.
I use a razor blade to push it down into all the holes well without a
lot of left over sanding to do.
Here's a trick to save you some time. Use peel-ply exactly like a layer
of glass. Make sure you have it on the TOP and not the bottom when you
apply the layup. When cured, simply peel it off and no sanding or
cleaning is necessary to apply more layers of fiberglass OR apply filler
- still paint a thin layer of wet resin on it though if you need to
fill.
When mostly done, ONLY use 3M foam sanding blocks. Spray glue 100-180
grit to it. I'd use at least a 1 foot block and no less than 6 inches.
Spray some crappy black spray paint on it - let it dry and sand at 45
degrees and then 90. You are looking for high and low spots. You will
sand off high and the paint will show the low. Don't ruin the
fiberglass by sanding too low just to get rid of the low spots. Sand
and fill those spots with micro - micro/flox if they are deeper.
Anyway, I hope this helps a little. My brother Danny (RV-7A) has a nice
write up and description of the entire process with good pictures and it
has some good pointers. I'll find that and send it to you too.
Good luck.
WEAR a mask.
Matt Reeves
Rochester, NY
Bruce Patton <bpattonsoa@yahoo.com> wrote:
That is a Masters Degree in dreaded fiberglass. The think that
keeps it from being a PhD is he left out the sanding of the part that to
which the fiberglass will be applied. Without that, you may have a
wonderful mold of the part when the new glass peals off the old.
Bruce Patton
Message 24
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| Subject: | "Experimental" Mark Inquiry |
I've seen that most builders have placed the "Experimental" on the
doors above the windows. I'm interested in seeing if anyone has had any
thoughts/plans/conversations/discussions about any other locations?
Above the doors on the cabin cover?
Aft Bulkhead? (how near is near?)
Center Console?
/FAR 45.23 Display of marks;
(b) When marks that include only the Roman capital letter "N" and the
registration
number are displayed on limited or restricted category aircraft or
experimental or
provisionally certificated aircraft, the operator shall also display on
that aircraft *near each
entrance to the cabin or cockpit, *in letters not less than 2 inches nor
more than 6 inches
in height, the words "limited," "restricted," "experimental," or
"provisional airworthiness,"
as the case may be./
Appreciate any comments feedback
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/*
*
Message 25
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| Subject: | "Experimental" Mark Inquiry |
We have put them on the top of the rear baggage wall. The DARs have had no
problems with that whatsoever.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:55 PM
Subject: RV10-List: "Experimental" Mark Inquiry
I've seen that most builders have placed the "Experimental" on the
doors above the windows. I'm interested in seeing if anyone has had any
thoughts/plans/conversations/discussions about any other locations?
Above the doors on the cabin cover?
Aft Bulkhead? (how near is near?)
Center Console?
/FAR 45.23 Display of marks;
(b) When marks that include only the Roman capital letter "N" and the
registration
number are displayed on limited or restricted category aircraft or
experimental or
provisionally certificated aircraft, the operator shall also display on
that aircraft *near each
entrance to the cabin or cockpit, *in letters not less than 2 inches nor
more than 6 inches
in height, the words "limited," "restricted," "experimental," or
"provisional airworthiness,"
as the case may be./
Appreciate any comments feedback
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/*
*
--
5:40 PM
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Critique |
For what it's worth.
My 2 batteries automatically come together when cranking, wired it that way
so that the start position of the ignition uses both (Avionics systems did this
in the panel).
Lightspeed? You need to run the hot wire through either a fuse or breaker
and tie it directly to the battery. Don't tie it to a bus relay that can fail
on you.
As an example, during flight test I lost an entire bus unexpectedly.
Troubleshooting found that the battery switch wire to the solenoid pulled out
of the terminal, so the solenoid lost its ground, and the bus went dead.
I wouldn't want my Lightspeed to go dead because of that.
And Klaus says that if you shut the battery solenoid off, and the battery
goes down to 4-5 volts, the light speed will still work!!
So........don't wire your lightspeed into a battery bus controlled by a
battery solenoid!!
Grumpy
do not archive
In a message dated 2/17/2007 9:42:33 AM Central Standard Time,
jwt@roadmapscoaching.com writes:
John, Larry
I also liked the idea of 2 same size batteries (17ah) and an annual swap. The
concern I ran into was if you use one for cranking and the other for the
start-up avionics, I would have only half the cranking power that I would have
had
with the one 25ah battery. According to Tim, you want to start up your
Cheltons as well as your engine monitor before cranking and you do not want to
have
these or the e. ignition on the cranking battery (will re-boot the Cheltons
and this takes some time). If I tie the two 17ah batteries together for cranking
then I have tied the avionics to the cranking batteries. This led me to
having one larger cranking battery and one smaller battery for start-up avionics,
e. ign., and essential bus backup. Is there an option I am missing here?
I dropped the idea of a second alternator after discussions with several
people. The main reason is that if I have any electrical failure, I am going to
land as soon as possible. I do not need a second alternator to take me to the
end of my fuel endurance (might be a dangerous temptation to keep going). With
2 quality RG batteries I should get about 1 1/2 hours of backup (plus my
AFS3400 internal battery - 1 hr.). This should easily get me to an airport or
instrument approach if IFR. The other reason was the cost of the accessory pad
back
up alternator - about $1,000.
I don't want to sound like I am any kind of expert or know the right answer.
So please challenge my thinking.
Couple of issues I am struggling over now:
1) Lightspeed suggest that you run a 18awg shielded power wire to a breaker
and then all the way back to the battery. I am resisting this, thinking of
running the shielded wire to the breaker, then the 2nd battery bus at the panel,
I
am not sure that I will not get ignition noise if I do this. What have others
done and what has been your experience with ignition noise?
2) I can't decide if I should put a switch between the 2nd battery and the
ebus alternate feed (see attached schematic).
3) Still looking for a good 12-17ah small/light 2nd battery.
Thanks for all the inputs
John Testement
jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
FWF, engine, wiring
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: "Experimental" Mark Inquiry |
THANKS Jesse! that' exactly the answer I was looking for!
Deems
do not archive
Jesse Saint wrote:
>
> We have put them on the top of the rear baggage wall. The DARs have had no
> problems with that whatsoever.
>
>
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