Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:45 AM - Re: "Experimental" Mark Inquiry (Rob Kermanj)
2. 05:40 AM - Axle extenders (Dave Leikam)
3. 05:59 AM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (James Hein)
4. 06:01 AM - Re: Electrical System Critique (Scott Keadle)
5. 06:41 AM - Fuel Filter (John Hasbrouck)
6. 07:09 AM - Axle Extensions (cloudvalley@comcast.net)
7. 07:18 AM - Re: Fuel Filter (Deems Davis)
8. 07:42 AM - Re: Axle Extensions (John Jessen)
9. 07:49 AM - Re: Electrical System Critique (John Testement)
10. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: Electrical System Critique (John Testement)
11. 08:05 AM - Re: "Experimental" Mark Inquiry (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
12. 08:43 AM - Whelen A-500A Strobe Installation (James Hein)
13. 09:21 AM - Re: Whelen A-500A Strobe Installation (Deems Davis)
14. 09:26 AM - Re: Fuel Filter (David Boone)
15. 10:19 AM - What pop rivet does Van's static port kit use (Tim Lewis)
16. 11:44 AM - Missing VA-141 Finger Strainer Flanges (Ben Westfall)
17. 11:53 AM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (John W. Cox)
18. 12:58 PM - Re: Fuel Filter (Albert Gardner)
19. 01:26 PM - Re: elevator control horn drilling (MauleDriver)
20. 02:08 PM - Re: CAD Drawings (don wentz)
21. 03:24 PM - RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) (James S. Clark IV)
22. 03:56 PM - Re: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) (Tim Olson)
23. 04:09 PM - Re: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) (Rene)
24. 04:13 PM - Re: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) (John Jessen)
25. 05:02 PM - Re: Whelen A-500A Strobe Installation (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
26. 05:52 PM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
27. 07:04 PM - Re: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) (Jesse Saint)
28. 07:46 PM - Re: elevator control horn drilling (John Gonzalez)
29. 08:20 PM - Re: Missing VA-141 Finger Strainer Flanges (orchidman)
30. 08:28 PM - Missing VA - 141 flanges (Fred Williams, M.D.)
31. 08:35 PM - Re: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) (Bill DeRouchey)
32. 08:53 PM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (Matt Reeves)
33. 09:17 PM - Re: Crossbow vs Pinpoint (Bill DeRouchey)
34. 10:50 PM - Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? (John W. Cox)
35. 11:05 PM - Re: Crossbow vs Pinpoint (John W. Cox)
36. 11:29 PM - Re: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) (John W. Cox)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: "Experimental" Mark Inquiry |
Mine is on the baggage compartment's aft bulkhead. The DAR was
interested to see that it was visible to passengers boarding the plane.
do not archive
On Feb 17, 2007, at 9:54 PM, Deems Davis wrote:
>
> I've seen that most builders have placed the "Experimental" on the
> doors above the windows. I'm interested in seeing if anyone has had
> any thoughts/plans/conversations/discussions about any other
> locations?
>
> Above the doors on the cabin cover?
> Aft Bulkhead? (how near is near?)
> Center Console?
>
>
> /FAR 45.23 Display of marks;
>
>
> (b) When marks that include only the Roman capital letter "N" and
> the registration
> number are displayed on limited or restricted category aircraft or
> experimental or
> provisionally certificated aircraft, the operator shall also
> display on that aircraft *near each
> entrance to the cabin or cockpit, *in letters not less than 2
> inches nor more than 6 inches
> in height, the words "limited," "restricted," "experimental," or
> "provisional airworthiness,"
> as the case may be./
>
>
> Appreciate any comments feedback
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
> http://deemsrv10.com/*
> *
>
>
Message 2
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Got my parts Tim. Thanks. Can't wait to be at the point to use them!
Dave Leikam
40496
Finishing emp, waiting for fuse and wings.
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
Thank you all for responding, especially Tim and Matt Reeves; I truly
find all the information very helpful indeed.
I will probably buy a quart kit to start so I don't have too much
material sitting around (I haven't even ordered the fuselage kit yet...
need more $$$).
I have no idea what a TAP plastics store is, so I'll just do some
dumpster diving at work where the prototype shop has all sorts of
plastics, lexan, etc. in various thicknesses.
One advantage I may have in this particular level of hell is a coworker
who seems to LOVE fiberglass work, and actually wants to help with my
wingtips! I think he's inhaled too much of the stuff myself (j/k)! I
want to do the smal fairings myself to get an idea of what I'm doing first.
In other news, I have a fantastic way to mount the tail strobe! I will
send a procedure with pictures to Tim and the list when I'm done (should
be later today for those chomping at the bit).
-Jim 40384 Wing skins all riveted! (noit much left to do... all control
surfaces and pushrods are already done)
Matt Reeves wrote:
> Here's an AWESOME link I promised.
>
> Very well written. Definately applies to RV's too.
>
> Have a great day.
>
>
> FINISHING A COMPOSITE AIRPLANE LINK:
> http://curedcomposites.netfirms.com/finish.html
>
>
> */linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>/* wrote:
>
> The problems with peeling or separating are usually due to not
> cleaning all the sanding dust after sanding. The epoxies are
> unlike polyester resins that have wax that rises to the surface
> and produces the 'shine'. I've not had any problems adding epoxy
> resin on epoxy rexin without sanding in between. But then I just
> may have been lucky! :-)
> Linn
>
> Bruce Patton wrote:
>
>> That is a Masters Degree in dreaded fiberglass. The think that
>> keeps it from being a PhD is he left out the sanding of the part
>> that to which the fiberglass will be applied. Without that, you
>> may have a wonderful mold of the part when the new glass peals
>> off the old.
>>
>> Bruce Patton
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: rv10builder <rv10builder@bellsouth.net>
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 8:48:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: What starter materials for fiberglass
>> would you recommend?
>>
>> <rv10builder@bellsouth.net>
>>
>> Check this out:
>>
>> http://www.rvpilot.com/Fiberglass/fiberglass.html
>>
>> Brian
>> #40308
>>
>>
>> James Hein wrote:
>> >
>> > I am going to finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of
>> you
>> > are already passed this particular level of hell.
>> >
>> > My question is: What "starter kit" would you recommend for
>> doing the
>> > tail fairings and wingtips?
>> > I plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I
>> order with
>> > it? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or fast)?
>> >
>> > -Jim 40384
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > sp; - The RV10-List Email Forum
>> -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Li - NEW
>> MATRONICS==
>>
>>* *
>>
>
>*
>
>
>*
>
>**
>
>
>**
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Critique |
All,
I have my panel completed from SteinAir, and was planning on running two alternators,
because I didn't think that it was possible to charge two batteries simultaneously
with one alternator. Is this correct? If not, then I think I could
just charge both with one 60amp alternator. Honestly, I could ask Stein, but
I'm too embarrassed to aggravate him any further with a question that I probably
already asked him several months ago!
I am running two seperate busses, each of which is capable of operating the airplane
in IFR conditions indefinitely. My thought was that if I were going to count
on a "backup" system, then I should be constantly monitoring that system
for operational readiness, lest I turn to the "backup" and find that it doesn't
work when I really need it (this seems common in the typical small business
computer backup, for instance).
I am also running dual Lightspeed ignitions, and will run separate physical routing
of each wire directly to the battery, in case of a master-solenoid failure,
which is actually not that uncommon and pretty much unpreventable. The seperate
physical routing is in case of something weird happening to the wire bundle
(fire, big toe, AAA from spamcan ground defenses, etc.).
I too, am just now realizing the starter/avionics clash for battery power, and
trying to decide how to handle the situation. It may be as simple as starting
on the "backup" bus, which doesn't have the Chelton's on it, and using a "cranking"
style battery on that bus. I would appreciate any suggestions.
I have a wiring diagram that I would be happy to share if anyone cared to see it,
but it is a hard copy produced by SteinAir, and I'm not quite sure I know how
to get it onto the computer. I am copying this message to Stein, so maybe he
has a digital copy that he can send to the list.
Scott
[quote="GenGrumpy(at)aol.com"]For what it's worth.
My 2 batteries automatically come together when cranking, wired it that way so
that the start position of the ignition uses both (Avionics systems did this
in the panel).
Lightspeed? You need to run the hot wire through either a fuse or breaker and
tie it directly to the battery. Don't tie it to a bus relay that can fail on
you.
As an example, during flight test I lost an entire bus unexpectedly.
Troubleshooting found that the battery switch wire to the solenoid pulled out
of the terminal, so the solenoid lost its ground, and the bus went dead.
I wouldn't want my Lightspeed to go dead because of that.
And Klaus says that if you shut the battery solenoid off, and the battery goes
down to 4-5 volts, the light speed will still work!!
So........don't wire your lightspeed into a battery bus controlled by a battery
solenoid!!
Grumpy
do not archive
In a message dated 2/17/2007 9:42:33 AM Central Standard Time, jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
writes:
> John, Larry
>
> I also liked the idea of 2 same size batteries (17ah) and an annual swap. The
concern I ran into was if you use one for cranking and the other for the start-up
avionics, I would have only half the cranking power that I would have had
with the one 25ah battery. According to Tim, you want to start up your Cheltons
as well as your engine monitor before cranking and you do not want to have
these or the e. ignition on the cranking battery (will re-boot the Cheltons and
this takes some time). If I tie the two 17ah batteries together for cranking
then I have tied the avionics to the cranking batteries. This led me to having
one larger cranking battery and one smaller battery for start-up avionics,
e. ign., and essential bus backup. Is there an option I am missing here?
>
> I dropped the idea of a second alternator after discussions with several people.
The main reason is that if I have any electrical failure, I am going to land
as soon as possible. I do not need a second alternator to take me? to the
end of my fuel endurance (might be a dangerous temptation to keep going). With
2 quality RG batteries I should get about 1 1/2 hours of backup (plus my AFS3400
internal battery - 1 hr.). This should easily get me to an airport or instrument
approach if IFR. The other reason was the cost of the accessory pad back
up alternator - about $1,000.
>
> I don't want to sound like I am any kind of expert or know the right answer.
So please challenge my thinking.
>
> Couple of issues I am struggling over now:
> 1) Lightspeed suggest that you run a 18awg shielded power wire to a breaker
and then all the way back to the battery. I am resisting this, thinking of running
the shielded wire to the breaker, then the 2nd battery bus at the panel,
I am not sure that I will not get ignition noise if I do this. What have others
done and what has been your experience with ignition noise?
> 2) I can't decide if I should put a switch between the 2nd battery and the ebus
alternate feed (see attached schematic).
> 3) Still looking for a good 12-17ah small/light 2nd battery.
>
> Thanks for all the inputs
>
> John Testement
> jwt@roadmapscoaching.com (jwt@roadmapscoaching.com)
> 40321
> Richmond, VA
> FWF, engine, wiring
>
>
> [b]
--------
Scott Keadle
14A, Lake Norman Airpark
N426AK RV-10, building
N180MP G202, flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p-811#95811
Message 5
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Has anyone come up with an alternate placement of the fuel filter. I'd like
a location FWF so as not to have to open the tunnel for filter service. (
I'll have a console below the panel over the tunnel ) Any reason it could
not be located on the firewall? Use a gascolator instead? The subject was
brought up in previous posts but don't remember any posts regarding a
solution...john
John Hasbrouck
#40264
Message 6
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Hello Tim,
Ruth and I got our axle extension bolts yesterday . Thanks to you and all who helped,
including your cute daughters !
We also can't wait until it's time to install them...
Brian and Ruth
#40666
<html><body>
<DIV>Hello Tim,</DIV>
<DIV>Ruth and I got our axle extension bolts yesterday . Thanks to you
and all who helped, including your cute daughters !</DIV>
<DIV>We also can't wait until it's time to install them...</DIV>
<DIV>Brian and Ruth</DIV>
<DIV>#40666</DIV>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 7
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Not an alternate placement, But During a recent visit from Al Gardner,
he shared that he was planning on installing an access panel similar to
the stall warning panel on the bottom of the aircraft so that you could
change/remove the filter from the bottom and avoid having gas inside of
the tunnel/plane. sounded like something that deserves some consideration.
Al you got your ears on???
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
John Hasbrouck wrote:
>
> Has anyone come up with an alternate placement of the fuel filter.
> I'd like a location FWF so as not to have to open the tunnel for
> filter service. ( I'll have a console below the panel over the tunnel
> ) Any reason it could not be located on the firewall? Use a
> gascolator instead? The subject was brought up in previous posts but
> don't remember any posts regarding a solution...john
>
Message 8
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Where do you plan to install them? The daughters, that is. Sorry. Just
couldn't help it.
John
do not archive
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cloudvalley@comcast.net
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 7:09 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Axle Extensions
Hello Tim,
Ruth and I got our axle extension bolts yesterday . Thanks to you and all
who helped, including your cute daughters !
We also can't wait until it's time to install them...
Brian and Ruth
#40666
Message 9
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| Subject: | Electrical System Critique |
Grumpy,
Would you run the shielded wire all the way to the back of the plane to the
battery or just to a battery buss (non-contactor) at the panel?
John Testement
HYPERLINK "mailto:jwt@roadmapscoaching.com"jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
FWF, engine, wiring
do not archive
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GenGrumpy@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Electrical System Critique
For what it's worth.
My 2 batteries automatically come together when cranking, wired it that way
so that the start position of the ignition uses both (Avionics systems did
this in the panel).
Lightspeed? You need to run the hot wire through either a fuse or breaker
and tie it directly to the battery. Don't tie it to a bus relay that can
fail on you.
As an example, during flight test I lost an entire bus unexpectedly.
Troubleshooting found that the battery switch wire to the solenoid pulled
out of the terminal, so the solenoid lost its ground, and the bus went dead.
I wouldn't want my Lightspeed to go dead because of that.
And Klaus says that if you shut the battery solenoid off, and the battery
goes down to 4-5 volts, the light speed will still work!!
So........don't wire your lightspeed into a battery bus controlled by a
battery solenoid!!
Grumpy
do not archive
In a message dated 2/17/2007 9:42:33 AM Central Standard Time,
jwt@roadmapscoaching.com writes:
John, Larry
I also liked the idea of 2 same size batteries (17ah) and an annual swap.
The concern I ran into was if you use one for cranking and the other for the
start-up avionics, I would have only half the cranking power that I would
have had with the one 25ah battery. According to Tim, you want to start up
your Cheltons as well as your engine monitor before cranking and you do not
want to have these or the e. ignition on the cranking battery (will re-boot
the Cheltons and this takes some time). If I tie the two 17ah batteries
together for cranking then I have tied the avionics to the cranking
batteries. This led me to having one larger cranking battery and one
smaller battery for start-up avionics, e. ign., and essential bus backup. Is
there an option I am missing here?
I dropped the idea of a second alternator after discussions with several
people. The main reason is that if I have any electrical failure, I am going
to land as soon as possible. I do not need a second alternator to take me
to the end of my fuel endurance (might be a dangerous temptation to keep
going). With 2 quality RG batteries I should get about 1 1/2 hours of backup
(plus my AFS3400 internal battery - 1 hr.). This should easily get me to an
airport or instrument approach if IFR. The other reason was the cost of the
accessory pad back up alternator - about $1,000.
I don't want to sound like I am any kind of expert or know the right answer.
So please challenge my thinking.
Couple of issues I am struggling over now:
1) Lightspeed suggest that you run a 18awg shielded power wire to a breaker
and then all the way back to the battery. I am resisting this, thinking of
running the shielded wire to the breaker, then the 2nd battery bus at the
panel, I am not sure that I will not get ignition noise if I do this. What
have others done and what has been your experience with ignition noise?
2) I can't decide if I should put a switch between the 2nd battery and the
ebus alternate feed (see attached schematic).
3) Still looking for a good 12-17ah small/light 2nd battery.
Thanks for all the inputs
John Testement
HYPERLINK "mailto:jwt@roadmapscoaching.com"jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
FWF, engine, wiring
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"http://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?RV10-List
--
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Critique |
Scott - and others,
Based on all of great inputs on and off line I am now leaning back towards
the 2 PC680 17ah battery scheme. I will allow the 2nd battery to
independently run avionics during start up. I would provide the option to
tie the 2nd battery to the main battery through a contactor if in a cold
situation the main battery cannot start the engine.
Once started I can also tie the 2nd battery to the main bus to let it
charge. If the 1st battery fails and I need main bus items I can power the
main bus from the second battery.
Unless I am overlooking something (which I usually do), this seems like the
best of all worlds - independent avionics on start, annual rotation of
batteries, minimal weight impact, longer ebus backup time.
Please give me your reactions - diagram attached.
John Testement
jwt@roadmapscoaching.com
40321
Richmond, VA
FWF, engine, wiring
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Keadle
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:01 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Electrical System Critique
All,
I have my panel completed from SteinAir, and was planning on running two
alternators, because I didn't think that it was possible to charge two
batteries simultaneously with one alternator. Is this correct? If not, then
I think I could just charge both with one 60amp alternator. Honestly, I
could ask Stein, but I'm too embarrassed to aggravate him any further with a
question that I probably already asked him several months ago!
I am running two seperate busses, each of which is capable of operating the
airplane in IFR conditions indefinitely. My thought was that if I were going
to count on a "backup" system, then I should be constantly monitoring that
system for operational readiness, lest I turn to the "backup" and find that
it doesn't work when I really need it (this seems common in the typical
small business computer backup, for instance).
I am also running dual Lightspeed ignitions, and will run separate physical
routing of each wire directly to the battery, in case of a master-solenoid
failure, which is actually not that uncommon and pretty much unpreventable.
The seperate physical routing is in case of something weird happening to the
wire bundle (fire, big toe, AAA from spamcan ground defenses, etc.).
I too, am just now realizing the starter/avionics clash for battery power,
and trying to decide how to handle the situation. It may be as simple as
starting on the "backup" bus, which doesn't have the Chelton's on it, and
using a "cranking" style battery on that bus. I would appreciate any
suggestions.
I have a wiring diagram that I would be happy to share if anyone cared to
see it, but it is a hard copy produced by SteinAir, and I'm not quite sure I
know how to get it onto the computer. I am copying this message to Stein, so
maybe he has a digital copy that he can send to the list.
Scott
--
Message 11
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| Subject: | "Experimental" Mark Inquiry |
Rick Gray has also put it on the upper Baggage wall. Abby can embroider
it there as well. I put mine on the doors like Tim.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: "Experimental" Mark Inquiry
THANKS Jesse! that' exactly the answer I was looking for!
Deems
do not archive
Jesse Saint wrote:
<jesse@saintaviation.com>
>
> We have put them on the top of the rear baggage wall. The DARs have
had no
> problems with that whatsoever.
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Whelen A-500A Strobe Installation |
Tim, You may put this on your site if you wish.
Here's what I did:
1. Start by cutting a 1" hole in the center of the tail fairing where
the strobe is supposed to be located. Be careful, the seam in the
fiberglass on mine was not exactly in the middle, so don't use it to
determine the centerline.
2. Enlarge the hole slightly with a file until the strobe assembly drops
in place.
3. Take apart strobe assembly, then enlarge the mounting holes in both
the strobe assembly, and the retaining cover carefully to 5/32". Remove
material that is toward the outside of the strobe. This is most easilly
accomplished by using a step drill by hand, turning the bit half way
around, then back a half turn. This is needed so that the head of a 6-32
screw can sit flat on the strobe cover.
4. Mark and drill the mounting holes for the strobe "tabs" in the
fiberglass.
5. Take two K1000-06 nutplates, and cut off one of the tabs.
6. Drill the nutplate holes in the fiberglass (see photo for approximate
location)
7. Countersink the nutplate rivet holes
8. Make sure the nutplates are trimmed well enough so that they fit
properly in the fairing.
9. Using CCR-264SS-3-2 pop rivets, rivet the nutplates in place.
10. Install strobe assembly using two commercially available pan head
6-32 1" long screws.
-Jim 40384
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Whelen A-500A Strobe Installation |
Brilliant !
THANKS!
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
do not archive
James Hein wrote:
> Tim, You may put this on your site if you wish.
>
Message 14
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John, we returned the original fuel filter to Vans, bought 2 new filters
from a "race car" supplier, positioned 1 each under the pilot and copilot
seat, installed a valve on the fuel tank side of each filter (to limit the
fuel spillage when changing/cleaning the filter). David Boone 40138
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hasbrouck" <jhasbrouck@woh.rr.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:41 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Filter
>
> Has anyone come up with an alternate placement of the fuel filter. I'd
> like a location FWF so as not to have to open the tunnel for filter
> service. ( I'll have a console below the panel over the tunnel ) Any
> reason it could not be located on the firewall? Use a gascolator instead?
> The subject was brought up in previous posts but don't remember any posts
> regarding a solution...john
>
> John Hasbrouck
> #40264
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | What pop rivet does Van's static port kit use |
Listers,
Can somebody tell me what pop rivet Vans includes in their static port
kit? It looks like an SB-42-BSLF, but I'm not sure.
Thanks,
Tim Lewis
--
Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
RV-6A N47TD -- 850 hrs
RV-10 #40059 under construction
Message 16
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| Subject: | Missing VA-141 Finger Strainer Flanges |
My wing kit inventory paperwork says the VA-141 flanges should have been in
BAG 1217. The VA-112 fuel drain flanges were but not the 141's. Does
anyone recall where the VA-141's were packaged in their kit? I have looked
high and low and then some in my shop for them. Looks like I am missing
them and missed it during wing kit inventory.
My BAG 1217 has a 2/01/06 date stamp on it.
-Ben
#40579
Message 17
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| Subject: | What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
http://www.tapplastics.com/
dumpster diving is exactly what I was doing, it was just a plastic box
and pennies on the dollar.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 5:57 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: What starter materials for fiberglass would you
recommend?
Thank you all for responding, especially Tim and Matt Reeves; I truly
find all the information very helpful indeed.
I will probably buy a quart kit to start so I don't have too much
material sitting around (I haven't even ordered the fuselage kit yet...
need more $$$).
I have no idea what a TAP plastics store is, so I'll just do some
dumpster diving at work where the prototype shop has all sorts of
plastics, lexan, etc. in various thicknesses.
One advantage I may have in this particular level of hell is a coworker
who seems to LOVE fiberglass work, and actually wants to help with my
wingtips! I think he's inhaled too much of the stuff myself (j/k)! I
want to do the smal fairings myself to get an idea of what I'm doing
first.
In other news, I have a fantastic way to mount the tail strobe! I will
send a procedure with pictures to Tim and the list when I'm done (should
be later today for those chomping at the bit).
-Jim 40384 Wing skins all riveted! (noit much left to do... all control
surfaces and pushrods are already done)
Matt Reeves wrote:
> Here's an AWESOME link I promised.
>
> Very well written. Definately applies to RV's too.
>
> Have a great day.
>
>
> FINISHING A COMPOSITE AIRPLANE LINK:
> http://curedcomposites.netfirms.com/finish.html
>
>
> */linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>/* wrote:
>
> The problems with peeling or separating are usually due to not
> cleaning all the sanding dust after sanding. The epoxies are
> unlike polyester resins that have wax that rises to the surface
> and produces the 'shine'. I've not had any problems adding epoxy
> resin on epoxy rexin without sanding in between. But then I just
> may have been lucky! :-)
> Linn
>
> Bruce Patton wrote:
>
>> That is a Masters Degree in dreaded fiberglass. The think that
>> keeps it from being a PhD is he left out the sanding of the part
>> that to which the fiberglass will be applied. Without that, you
>> may have a wonderful mold of the part when the new glass peals
>> off the old.
>>
>> Bruce Patton
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: rv10builder <rv10builder@bellsouth.net>
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 8:48:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: What starter materials for fiberglass
>> would you recommend?
>>
>> <rv10builder@bellsouth.net>
>>
>> Check this out:
>>
>> http://www.rvpilot.com/Fiberglass/fiberglass.html
>>
>> Brian
>> #40308
>>
>>
>> James Hein wrote:
>> >
>> > I am going to finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of
>> you
>> > are already passed this particular level of hell.
>> >
>> > My question is: What "starter kit" would you recommend for
>> doing the
>> > tail fairings and wingtips?
>> > I plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I
>> order with
>> > it? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or
fast)?
>> >
>> > -Jim 40384
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > sp; - The RV10-List Email Forum
>> -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Li - NEW
>> MATRONICS==
>>
>>* *
>>
>
>*
>
>
>*
>
>**
>
>
>**
>
Message 18
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Hi Deems, yes my ears are on-it's my head that's the problem!. As soon as I
get the *%!@ headliner glued down I'll post some pics. I like it but since
there has been no fuel in the system so far, I don't know if it will
allow/minimize any leaks or not when changing the filter.
Albert Gardner
Yuma, AZ
-----Original Message
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Filter
Not an alternate placement, But During a recent visit from Al Gardner,
he shared that he was planning on installing an access panel similar to
the stall warning panel on the bottom of the aircraft so that you could
change/remove the filter from the bottom and avoid having gas inside of
the tunnel/plane. Sounded like something that deserves some consideration.
Al you got your ears on???
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: elevator control horn drilling |
John (or anyone), what was Vans final advice regarding this situation?
I may be facing a similar situation with reduced material between the
hole and the end of the horn.
I've searched the forum but can't find additional references.
Thanks
do not archive
John Gonzalez wrote:
>
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> I just got off the phone with Van's and asked them to have the powers
> that be review the building manual and make a comment about being
> careful to respect the up/down dimension of where the drill will exit
> out of the second hole on the second horn. Not jus tbe concerned about
> the most aft horn being the designated guide.
>
> I wanted to ask you the minimum edge distance as you stated, is that
> in steel or in alluminum?
>
> I discussed the issue of welding on a plate and and he did not think
> that was necessary, there also could be a weakening of the original
> material at the intersection of the new plate and the horn.
>
> Just for discussion, (If I could not sleep because of this) he
> discussed an alternate remedy, riveting another plate of similair
> material(4130 steel) with say 6 rivets using the same hole, just to
> extend the gap between the hole edge and the bottom edge of the horn.
>
> As I have stated, I have 6/32 of material on the bottom edge from hole
> edge to horn bottom edge, and when this is all torqued down with
> washers pinching this together I wonder how exposed to stresses this
> 6/32" of material will be. still need to review the connection, but
> alteast there are a couple of alternative remedies other than rework
>
> JOhn G. 409
>
>
Message 20
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Jesse,
I have my original RV-6 panel dwg that was used to laser cut my panel
(back
in the old days, when laser cutting was =91new=92 ;-).
I=92ll send you some files that are TurboCad compatible. There are
cutouts of
instruments, radios, nice .8=94 spaced switch/breaker switch banks, etc.
The TCad website has =91some=92 electrical symbols available, but most
of them
are for things we wouldn=92t need.
If you have specific questions about the files, feel free to contact me.
Anyone else that wants the files, please send me a note offline and
I=92ll
forward them.
Don
RV-6 980hrs
HYPERLINK "mailto:dasduck@comcast.net"dasduck@comcast.net
Duckworks Aviation LLC
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
noel@blueskyaviation.net
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 8:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: CAD Drawings
I hope someone has these I just have to use my calipers and the actual
part.
Noel
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 8:23 PM
Subject: RV10-List: CAD Drawings
Does anybody have a link where I can download CAD drawings of common
instrument panel items, like switches, breakers and namely, the standard
Mag
switch? Is there a library anyway like the Aero Electric one for
electrical
drawings? By the way, I=92m using TurboCAD. I do have a bunch of items
that
I have drawn myself, which people are welcome to use if they need to.
Contact me offline if you need something and I will let you know if I
have
it.
Thanks.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
HYPERLINK "mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com"jesse@saintaviation.com
HYPERLINK "http://www.saintaviation.com"www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
--
2/16/2007
--
2/16/2007
Message 21
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| Subject: | RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
I would appreciate hearing peoples comments on the following
comparison (archer vs RV10). Don't start laughing yet :)
I am doing this for budgetary planning purposes against something
that I am familiar with.
I would like to know if people think some of these numbers are off
the mark.
I know people will scream these planes are not even in the same
category (mostly in speed, newness, & avionics). Otherwise both are 4
seaters, with only slightly different useful loads.
I know people will say its not the aircraft its the buy/build
decision, but honestly I would enjoy either process.
The following assumptions are used:
I am convinced I would LOVE building, not just flying. We do have the
time/patience to build.
Financing for loan payments (forced home refi due to balloon payment
coming due - 6.25% 30 year fixed with cash out to purchase 1/2 of
aircraft):
Shared ownership/building with each owner purchasing half
$4 fuel / gallon
Insurance for low time IFR pilot (250 total hours, only 30 complex in
a mooney).
200 total hours / year on aircraft (~100 per owner)
RV-10:
Total Loan Amount $150,000
Total loan payment per month: $924
Hanger / month: %330 a must to protect all the hard work
Gallons / hour: 12
Cruise Speed: 165 knots
Useful Load: 1180
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: $5000???
Maintenance / year: 1000 parts, free labor??
Fuel Cost / year: 9600
Total / year: 30,642
Total / month: $2554
Total / individual / month: 1277
Cost per flight hour: 153
Available: 3 years from now (but with fun experience of building)
Features: NEW everything, owner KNOWs aircraft inside & out
1976 Used Piper Archer II
Total Loan Amount 65k
Total loan payment per month: $400
Tiedown / month: 85 (tiedown ok for used plane)
Gallons / hour: 10
Cruise Speed: 120 knots
Useful Load: 1008
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: 2500???
Maintenance / year: 3000 parts/labor
Fuel Cost / year: 8000
Total / year: 19322
Total / month: 1610
Total / individual / month: 805
Cost per flight hour: 97
Available: 2 weeks
Features: Used, average paint, IFR ready now, dull and boring (not
much owner maintenance)
Do these look like reasonable numbers? Do the monthly operations
costs seem right?
I have attached a spreadsheet so those who want to change my numbers
may do so. I'd appreciate a copy back of your ideas if you think my
numbers should be changed. Especially the insurance figures. What is
everyone else paying for insurance with various numbers of piloting
hours. Also attached is an updated RV10 budget including many of the
hidden costs offered up by list members (others still yet to be
included).
Thanks in advance,
Jim Clark
-Trying to figure out how to win the lottery...cowering in
expectation of responses to my questions...
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
I'll do the unusual and give my short answer...
Hands down go with the Archer. If you're borrowing
that kind of cash to build the plane, it seems to
be overextending quite a bit for a "toy". Save a pile
of cash, make it a fairly risk-free thing, and spend 2 or
3 years flying your Archer to get used to the costs of
ownership. You can also wait a year and start on your
tail kit for the -10 with minimal cash outlay, if you've
found the finances to be working properly...and fly the
Archer until you actually *need* the cash to dump into the
RV-10 project...which would be a few MONTHS after you
start building it.
Owning and aircraft is a considerable expense. Knowing that
there are those who would crucify me for saying this, I'll
still be willing to say that you're just not going to own and
operate an RV-10 for anywhere near the costs of a <$75K spam
can, when all is said and done. Getting the experience in
a risk-free way can go a long way into helping you determine
the best future path.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
James S. Clark IV wrote:
> I would appreciate hearing peoples comments on the following comparison
> (archer vs RV10). Don't start laughing yet :)
> I am doing this for budgetary planning purposes against something that I
> am familiar with.
> I would like to know if people think some of these numbers are off the
> mark.
> I know people will scream these planes are not even in the same category
> (mostly in speed, newness, & avionics). Otherwise both are 4 seaters,
> with only slightly different useful loads.
> I know people will say its not the aircraft its the buy/build decision,
> but honestly I would enjoy either process.
>
> The following assumptions are used:
> I am convinced I would LOVE building, not just flying. We do have the
> time/patience to build.
> Financing for loan payments (forced home refi due to balloon payment
> coming due - 6.25% 30 year fixed with cash out to purchase 1/2 of
> aircraft):
> Shared ownership/building with each owner purchasing half
> $4 fuel / gallon
> Insurance for low time IFR pilot (250 total hours, only 30 complex in a
> mooney).
> 200 total hours / year on aircraft (~100 per owner)
>
> RV-10:
> Total Loan Amount $150,000
> Total loan payment per month: $924
> Hanger / month: %330 a must to protect all the hard work
> Gallons / hour: 12
> Cruise Speed: 165 knots
> Useful Load: 1180
> Seats: 4
> Insurance / year: $5000???
> Maintenance / year: 1000 parts, free labor??
> Fuel Cost / year: 9600
> Total / year: 30,642
> Total / month: $2554
> Total / individual / month: 1277
> Cost per flight hour: 153
> Available: 3 years from now (but with fun experience of building)
> Features: NEW everything, owner KNOWs aircraft inside & out
>
> 1976 Used Piper Archer II
> Total Loan Amount 65k
> Total loan payment per month: $400
> Tiedown / month: 85 (tiedown ok for used plane)
> Gallons / hour: 10
> Cruise Speed: 120 knots
> Useful Load: 1008
> Seats: 4
> Insurance / year: 2500???
> Maintenance / year: 3000 parts/labor
> Fuel Cost / year: 8000
> Total / year: 19322
> Total / month: 1610
> Total / individual / month: 805
> Cost per flight hour: 97
> Available: 2 weeks
> Features: Used, average paint, IFR ready now, dull and boring (not much
> owner maintenance)
>
> Do these look like reasonable numbers? Do the monthly operations costs
> seem right?
> I have attached a spreadsheet so those who want to change my numbers may
> do so. I'd appreciate a copy back of your ideas if you think my numbers
> should be changed. Especially the insurance figures. What is everyone
> else paying for insurance with various numbers of piloting hours. Also
> attached is an updated RV10 budget including many of the hidden costs
> offered up by list members (others still yet to be included).
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Jim Clark
> -Trying to figure out how to win the lottery...cowering in expectation
> of responses to my questions...
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
My comments would be....
If you want to be apples to apples, or something like that.
Equal up the fuel burn, you can always fly Lean of Peak and reduce power in
the RV 10.
Insurance costs look a little high for the RV-10, I don't have my final
insurance quote.....but it looks like it should be are $3300 for me.
Just my .5 cents.
Rene'
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S. Clark IV
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 4:23 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
I would appreciate hearing peoples comments on the following
comparison (archer vs RV10). Don't start laughing yet :)
I am doing this for budgetary planning purposes against something
that I am familiar with.
I would like to know if people think some of these numbers are off
the mark.
I know people will scream these planes are not even in the same
category (mostly in speed, newness, & avionics). Otherwise both are 4
seaters, with only slightly different useful loads.
I know people will say its not the aircraft its the buy/build
decision, but honestly I would enjoy either process.
The following assumptions are used:
I am convinced I would LOVE building, not just flying. We do have the
time/patience to build.
Financing for loan payments (forced home refi due to balloon payment
coming due - 6.25% 30 year fixed with cash out to purchase 1/2 of
aircraft):
Shared ownership/building with each owner purchasing half
$4 fuel / gallon
Insurance for low time IFR pilot (250 total hours, only 30 complex in
a mooney).
200 total hours / year on aircraft (~100 per owner)
RV-10:
Total Loan Amount $150,000
Total loan payment per month: $924
Hanger / month: %330 a must to protect all the hard work
Gallons / hour: 12
Cruise Speed: 165 knots
Useful Load: 1180
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: $5000???
Maintenance / year: 1000 parts, free labor??
Fuel Cost / year: 9600
Total / year: 30,642
Total / month: $2554
Total / individual / month: 1277
Cost per flight hour: 153
Available: 3 years from now (but with fun experience of building)
Features: NEW everything, owner KNOWs aircraft inside & out
1976 Used Piper Archer II
Total Loan Amount 65k
Total loan payment per month: $400
Tiedown / month: 85 (tiedown ok for used plane)
Gallons / hour: 10
Cruise Speed: 120 knots
Useful Load: 1008
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: 2500???
Maintenance / year: 3000 parts/labor
Fuel Cost / year: 8000
Total / year: 19322
Total / month: 1610
Total / individual / month: 805
Cost per flight hour: 97
Available: 2 weeks
Features: Used, average paint, IFR ready now, dull and boring (not
much owner maintenance)
Do these look like reasonable numbers? Do the monthly operations
costs seem right?
I have attached a spreadsheet so those who want to change my numbers
may do so. I'd appreciate a copy back of your ideas if you think my
numbers should be changed. Especially the insurance figures. What is
everyone else paying for insurance with various numbers of piloting
hours. Also attached is an updated RV10 budget including many of the
hidden costs offered up by list members (others still yet to be
included).
Thanks in advance,
Jim Clark
-Trying to figure out how to win the lottery...cowering in
expectation of responses to my questions...
Message 24
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| Subject: | RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
Jim, I haven't looked over your scenario in depth, but I keep going through
the comparison myself. Except for me, I chose to look at something with
comparable speed, as well as seats. You can get a nice Bonanza 33A for $150
- 175,000. Or, a older V35 for $65 - 85,000. 4 seats and 150 cruise. Do
some upgrades and get it nice and you're around, for the latter, $100,000.
Cheaper and you get in the air faster than building a -10. I've also looked
at Comanche's, but not sure if they are a good investment, given lack of
parts and a very odd panel for most of the older ones. It's an interesting
exercise. Keep one thing in mind. A 33A driver, with a gorgeous plane that
he owns with a partner, a few hangers down from mine, would trade me any day
for a finished -10. He can't just get in his 33A and go have fun. For him
it's a traveling machine. The -10 can almost act like a 2-seat RV-9A. Just
get in a have fun. Much more comfortable and more expensive to drive, but
fun nonetheless. Great visibility; excellent handling; comfortable. Great
avionics, even for those opting to do less than the latest and greatest.
You can do your own annuals and upgrades. And so on.
Just a few thoughts...
John Jessen
#328
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S. Clark IV
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 3:23 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
I would appreciate hearing peoples comments on the following comparison
(archer vs RV10). Don't start laughing yet :) I am doing this for budgetary
planning purposes against something that I am familiar with.
I would like to know if people think some of these numbers are off the mark.
I know people will scream these planes are not even in the same category
(mostly in speed, newness, & avionics). Otherwise both are 4 seaters, with
only slightly different useful loads.
I know people will say its not the aircraft its the buy/build decision, but
honestly I would enjoy either process.
The following assumptions are used:
I am convinced I would LOVE building, not just flying. We do have the
time/patience to build.
Financing for loan payments (forced home refi due to balloon payment coming
due - 6.25% 30 year fixed with cash out to purchase 1/2 of
aircraft):
Shared ownership/building with each owner purchasing half
$4 fuel / gallon
Insurance for low time IFR pilot (250 total hours, only 30 complex in a
mooney).
200 total hours / year on aircraft (~100 per owner)
RV-10:
Total Loan Amount $150,000
Total loan payment per month: $924
Hanger / month: %330 a must to protect all the hard work Gallons / hour: 12
Cruise Speed: 165 knots Useful Load: 1180
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: $5000???
Maintenance / year: 1000 parts, free labor??
Fuel Cost / year: 9600
Total / year: 30,642
Total / month: $2554
Total / individual / month: 1277
Cost per flight hour: 153
Available: 3 years from now (but with fun experience of building)
Features: NEW everything, owner KNOWs aircraft inside & out
1976 Used Piper Archer II
Total Loan Amount 65k
Total loan payment per month: $400
Tiedown / month: 85 (tiedown ok for used plane) Gallons / hour: 10 Cruise
Speed: 120 knots Useful Load: 1008
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: 2500???
Maintenance / year: 3000 parts/labor
Fuel Cost / year: 8000
Total / year: 19322
Total / month: 1610
Total / individual / month: 805
Cost per flight hour: 97
Available: 2 weeks
Features: Used, average paint, IFR ready now, dull and boring (not much
owner maintenance)
Do these look like reasonable numbers? Do the monthly operations costs seem
right?
I have attached a spreadsheet so those who want to change my numbers may do
so. I'd appreciate a copy back of your ideas if you think my numbers should
be changed. Especially the insurance figures. What is everyone else paying
for insurance with various numbers of piloting hours. Also attached is an
updated RV10 budget including many of the hidden costs offered up by list
members (others still yet to be included).
Thanks in advance,
Jim Clark
-Trying to figure out how to win the lottery...cowering in expectation of
responses to my questions...
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Whelen A-500A Strobe Installation |
You can also flox in a couple pieces of 6061 or other aluminum. Once
set up you can drill and tap it. That's what I ended up doing.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Whelen A-500A Strobe Installation
Brilliant !
THANKS!
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
do not archive
James Hein wrote:
> Tim, You may put this on your site if you wish.
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
Too bad they are only on the far west coast.
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:53 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: What starter materials for fiberglass would you
recommend?
http://www.tapplastics.com/
dumpster diving is exactly what I was doing, it was just a plastic box
and pennies on the dollar.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Hein
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 5:57 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: What starter materials for fiberglass would you
recommend?
Thank you all for responding, especially Tim and Matt Reeves; I truly
find all the information very helpful indeed.
I will probably buy a quart kit to start so I don't have too much
material sitting around (I haven't even ordered the fuselage kit yet...
need more $$$).
I have no idea what a TAP plastics store is, so I'll just do some
dumpster diving at work where the prototype shop has all sorts of
plastics, lexan, etc. in various thicknesses.
One advantage I may have in this particular level of hell is a coworker
who seems to LOVE fiberglass work, and actually wants to help with my
wingtips! I think he's inhaled too much of the stuff myself (j/k)! I
want to do the smal fairings myself to get an idea of what I'm doing
first.
In other news, I have a fantastic way to mount the tail strobe! I will
send a procedure with pictures to Tim and the list when I'm done (should
be later today for those chomping at the bit).
-Jim 40384 Wing skins all riveted! (noit much left to do... all control
surfaces and pushrods are already done)
Matt Reeves wrote:
> Here's an AWESOME link I promised.
>
> Very well written. Definately applies to RV's too.
>
> Have a great day.
>
>
> FINISHING A COMPOSITE AIRPLANE LINK:
> http://curedcomposites.netfirms.com/finish.html
>
>
> */linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>/* wrote:
>
> The problems with peeling or separating are usually due to not
> cleaning all the sanding dust after sanding. The epoxies are
> unlike polyester resins that have wax that rises to the surface
> and produces the 'shine'. I've not had any problems adding epoxy
> resin on epoxy rexin without sanding in between. But then I just
> may have been lucky! :-)
> Linn
>
> Bruce Patton wrote:
>
>> That is a Masters Degree in dreaded fiberglass. The think that
>> keeps it from being a PhD is he left out the sanding of the part
>> that to which the fiberglass will be applied. Without that, you
>> may have a wonderful mold of the part when the new glass peals
>> off the old.
>>
>> Bruce Patton
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: rv10builder <rv10builder@bellsouth.net>
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 8:48:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: What starter materials for fiberglass
>> would you recommend?
>>
>> <rv10builder@bellsouth.net>
>>
>> Check this out:
>>
>> http://www.rvpilot.com/Fiberglass/fiberglass.html
>>
>> Brian
>> #40308
>>
>>
>> James Hein wrote:
>> >
>> > I am going to finally start the fiberglass work. I know some of
>> you
>> > are already passed this particular level of hell.
>> >
>> > My question is: What "starter kit" would you recommend for
>> doing the
>> > tail fairings and wingtips?
>> > I plan on using West Systems Epoxy, but what else should I
>> order with
>> > it? What cloth? What filler (if any)? What hardener (slow or
fast)?
>> >
>> > -Jim 40384
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > sp; - The RV10-List Email Forum
>> -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Li - NEW
>> MATRONICS==
>>
>>* *
>>
>
>*
>
>
>*
>
>**
>
>
>**
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
One thing I would consider is the difference in travel time and range.
Figure your average trip length and the need of a fuel stop in one or both
planes, then calculate the extra fuel used for the stop, and calculate the
cost per mile, not the cost per hour. I overall agree with Tim, but this is
a very important part of the equation. You can get in a 172 a LOT cheaper
than the -10, but if you are normally traveling 800nm, then the RV can make
it nonstop and the Cessna will have to make 2 fuel stops, and burning 8gph
instead of 10-11, flying twice as many hours because of the stops, then the
cost per mile is higher in the Cessna than the -10. These numbers are just
off the top of my head, so they are not perfect, but I think it is safe to
say, in my experience, that the -10 is cheaper to fly than the 172 if you
are traveling, and that's not counting your time worth anything. I would
mainly recommend that you try to limit your debt to something more
reasonable and enjoy flying, and then start slowly on building a tail kit
and see how you enjoy it. If you don't, then you are out $5,000 (but have
some tools to show for it) and some time, and have saved yourself a LOT of
time and money and can enjoy flying still in the archer.
I also think the insurance on the -10 is estimated high. I would go with
$4,000 to be safe. Also, treat both planes equally. You could go with a
cheap paint job and save yourself money and feel more comfortable parking it
on the ramp. You can get covers for just about everything anyway, so I
would put the same treatment on both planes, either hangar both or tie both
down.
All IMHO, so do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S. Clark IV
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 6:23 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
I would appreciate hearing peoples comments on the following
comparison (archer vs RV10). Don't start laughing yet :)
I am doing this for budgetary planning purposes against something
that I am familiar with.
I would like to know if people think some of these numbers are off
the mark.
I know people will scream these planes are not even in the same
category (mostly in speed, newness, & avionics). Otherwise both are 4
seaters, with only slightly different useful loads.
I know people will say its not the aircraft its the buy/build
decision, but honestly I would enjoy either process.
The following assumptions are used:
I am convinced I would LOVE building, not just flying. We do have the
time/patience to build.
Financing for loan payments (forced home refi due to balloon payment
coming due - 6.25% 30 year fixed with cash out to purchase 1/2 of
aircraft):
Shared ownership/building with each owner purchasing half
$4 fuel / gallon
Insurance for low time IFR pilot (250 total hours, only 30 complex in
a mooney).
200 total hours / year on aircraft (~100 per owner)
RV-10:
Total Loan Amount $150,000
Total loan payment per month: $924
Hanger / month: %330 a must to protect all the hard work
Gallons / hour: 12
Cruise Speed: 165 knots
Useful Load: 1180
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: $5000???
Maintenance / year: 1000 parts, free labor??
Fuel Cost / year: 9600
Total / year: 30,642
Total / month: $2554
Total / individual / month: 1277
Cost per flight hour: 153
Available: 3 years from now (but with fun experience of building)
Features: NEW everything, owner KNOWs aircraft inside & out
1976 Used Piper Archer II
Total Loan Amount 65k
Total loan payment per month: $400
Tiedown / month: 85 (tiedown ok for used plane)
Gallons / hour: 10
Cruise Speed: 120 knots
Useful Load: 1008
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: 2500???
Maintenance / year: 3000 parts/labor
Fuel Cost / year: 8000
Total / year: 19322
Total / month: 1610
Total / individual / month: 805
Cost per flight hour: 97
Available: 2 weeks
Features: Used, average paint, IFR ready now, dull and boring (not
much owner maintenance)
Do these look like reasonable numbers? Do the monthly operations
costs seem right?
I have attached a spreadsheet so those who want to change my numbers
may do so. I'd appreciate a copy back of your ideas if you think my
numbers should be changed. Especially the insurance figures. What is
everyone else paying for insurance with various numbers of piloting
hours. Also attached is an updated RV10 budget including many of the
hidden costs offered up by list members (others still yet to be
included).
Thanks in advance,
Jim Clark
-Trying to figure out how to win the lottery...cowering in
expectation of responses to my questions...
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: elevator control horn drilling |
I had the additional requirement of needing to align my counter balance
arms, my horn hole was slightly less than 90 degrees itrue in all
dimensions. I ended doing the plate and riveting it on to the horn.
I"ll send picture tomorrow if you are interested.
JOhn G.
>From: MauleDriver <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: elevator control horn drilling
>Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:25:58 -0500
>
>
>John (or anyone), what was Vans final advice regarding this situation? I
>may be facing a similar situation with reduced material between the hole
>and the end of the horn.
>
>I've searched the forum but can't find additional references.
>
>Thanks
>do not archive
>
>John Gonzalez wrote:
>>
>>
>>Hi Richard,
>>
>>I just got off the phone with Van's and asked them to have the powers that
>>be review the building manual and make a comment about being careful to
>>respect the up/down dimension of where the drill will exit out of the
>>second hole on the second horn. Not jus tbe concerned about the most aft
>>horn being the designated guide.
>>
>>I wanted to ask you the minimum edge distance as you stated, is that in
>>steel or in alluminum?
>>
>>I discussed the issue of welding on a plate and and he did not think that
>>was necessary, there also could be a weakening of the original material at
>>the intersection of the new plate and the horn.
>>
>>Just for discussion, (If I could not sleep because of this) he discussed
>>an alternate remedy, riveting another plate of similair material(4130
>>steel) with say 6 rivets using the same hole, just to extend the gap
>>between the hole edge and the bottom edge of the horn.
>>
>>As I have stated, I have 6/32 of material on the bottom edge from hole
>>edge to horn bottom edge, and when this is all torqued down with washers
>>pinching this together I wonder how exposed to stresses this 6/32" of
>>material will be. still need to review the connection, but alteast there
>>are a couple of alternative remedies other than rework
>>
>>JOhn G. 409
>>
>>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Missing VA-141 Finger Strainer Flanges |
I just received my kit and did the inventory this weekend. My Bag 1217 is dated
7/18/06 and has a problem with it also. I received 3 VA-141's and only 1 VA-112.
Should have been 2 and 2.
My 1217 is one of the clear plastic bags with the printed inventory on it.
Sounds like they are having problems with their 1217's
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
(N410GB reserved)
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p-956#95956
Message 30
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| Subject: | Missing VA - 141 flanges |
Ben:
You are looking in the correct place. Mine were missing from the kit.
Called Vans and they were nice enough to send them to me. No charge. I
have kit 40515.
Fred Williams
Riveting on those fun loving lower wing skins and wishing I was back
doing proseal..........not!.
Message 31
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| Subject: | RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
In April 2006 I sold my 1977 Archer II and flew my RV-10 in August. Owned the Archer
for 14 years and kept it in good condition. Only value of an Archer is if
money is tight you can put it on lease back - but the General Public will rip
the plane apart.
The RV-10 is all new and much less expensive to maintain. The RV-10 flys 50%
faster with less fuel costs. Actual numbers are 13.5 MPG for the Archer and 16.3
MPG for the RV-10 at the same altitude. Only a great aerodynamic design can
accomplish this feat!
I thought I liked flying the Archer. But now after flying the RV-10, flying in
an Archer seems like a waste of time. In fact, the certified aircraft without
glass panels are basically dead at this time and their value will continue to
drop.
Sorry to be so discouraging ... or encourging depending how you view the situation.
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB, Flying
billderou@yahoo.com
Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com> wrote:
One thing I would consider is the difference in travel time and range.
Figure your average trip length and the need of a fuel stop in one or both
planes, then calculate the extra fuel used for the stop, and calculate the
cost per mile, not the cost per hour. I overall agree with Tim, but this is
a very important part of the equation. You can get in a 172 a LOT cheaper
than the -10, but if you are normally traveling 800nm, then the RV can make
it nonstop and the Cessna will have to make 2 fuel stops, and burning 8gph
instead of 10-11, flying twice as many hours because of the stops, then the
cost per mile is higher in the Cessna than the -10. These numbers are just
off the top of my head, so they are not perfect, but I think it is safe to
say, in my experience, that the -10 is cheaper to fly than the 172 if you
are traveling, and that's not counting your time worth anything. I would
mainly recommend that you try to limit your debt to something more
reasonable and enjoy flying, and then start slowly on building a tail kit
and see how you enjoy it. If you don't, then you are out $5,000 (but have
some tools to show for it) and some time, and have saved yourself a LOT of
time and money and can enjoy flying still in the archer.
I also think the insurance on the -10 is estimated high. I would go with
$4,000 to be safe. Also, treat both planes equally. You could go with a
cheap paint job and save yourself money and feel more comfortable parking it
on the ramp. You can get covers for just about everything anyway, so I
would put the same treatment on both planes, either hangar both or tie both
down.
All IMHO, so do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S. Clark IV
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 6:23 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
I would appreciate hearing peoples comments on the following
comparison (archer vs RV10). Don't start laughing yet :)
I am doing this for budgetary planning purposes against something
that I am familiar with.
I would like to know if people think some of these numbers are off
the mark.
I know people will scream these planes are not even in the same
category (mostly in speed, newness, & avionics). Otherwise both are 4
seaters, with only slightly different useful loads.
I know people will say its not the aircraft its the buy/build
decision, but honestly I would enjoy either process.
The following assumptions are used:
I am convinced I would LOVE building, not just flying. We do have the
time/patience to build.
Financing for loan payments (forced home refi due to balloon payment
coming due - 6.25% 30 year fixed with cash out to purchase 1/2 of
aircraft):
Shared ownership/building with each owner purchasing half
$4 fuel / gallon
Insurance for low time IFR pilot (250 total hours, only 30 complex in
a mooney).
200 total hours / year on aircraft (~100 per owner)
RV-10:
Total Loan Amount $150,000
Total loan payment per month: $924
Hanger / month: %330 a must to protect all the hard work
Gallons / hour: 12
Cruise Speed: 165 knots
Useful Load: 1180
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: $5000???
Maintenance / year: 1000 parts, free labor??
Fuel Cost / year: 9600
Total / year: 30,642
Total / month: $2554
Total / individual / month: 1277
Cost per flight hour: 153
Available: 3 years from now (but with fun experience of building)
Features: NEW everything, owner KNOWs aircraft inside & out
1976 Used Piper Archer II
Total Loan Amount 65k
Total loan payment per month: $400
Tiedown / month: 85 (tiedown ok for used plane)
Gallons / hour: 10
Cruise Speed: 120 knots
Useful Load: 1008
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: 2500???
Maintenance / year: 3000 parts/labor
Fuel Cost / year: 8000
Total / year: 19322
Total / month: 1610
Total / individual / month: 805
Cost per flight hour: 97
Available: 2 weeks
Features: Used, average paint, IFR ready now, dull and boring (not
much owner maintenance)
Do these look like reasonable numbers? Do the monthly operations
costs seem right?
I have attached a spreadsheet so those who want to change my numbers
may do so. I'd appreciate a copy back of your ideas if you think my
numbers should be changed. Especially the insurance figures. What is
everyone else paying for insurance with various numbers of piloting
hours. Also attached is an updated RV10 budget including many of the
hidden costs offered up by list members (others still yet to be
included).
Thanks in advance,
Jim Clark
-Trying to figure out how to win the lottery...cowering in
expectation of responses to my questions...
Message 32
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| Subject: | What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
Thanks for the kind words John!! I'm more than happy to help out anyone who has
questions with fiberglass. I'm not an expert, just a guy with an opinion and
a hell of a lot of sanding under my belt!!
mattreeves@yahoo.com
John, what's your opinion on Sikkens vs. Imron? I've always used Imron 5 &
6000 and LOVE it but heard Sikkens is more user friendly. I did see an RV-7A
painted with Sikkens and buffed to perfection and it was awesome!
Just wondering.
Have a great day.
Matt
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> wrote:
Matt, after thirty years of car restoration and yes, aircraft painting.
I can clearly endorse your below post as a treatise for a Masters in
Fiberglas in 1,000 words or less (935 to be exact).
RV-10 builders should use this as a roadmap to their diplomas as well. They
may have a little trouble with visualization of some of the products right now,
but in time, they will go Wow, Matt really knew his stuff.
Lance was right, if its not Clean it wont stick. If the air is too humid, it
wont stick. 70-75 the porridge should be just right. That is air temperature
and the temperature of the resin.
John Cox
---------------------------------
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Reeves
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend?
Jim,
Bruce is right. I built a Lancair and taught my brother all I know about fiberglass
for his RV-7A. The number 1 thing to remember is cleanliness. Lance
- designer of Lancair always said, "If it ain't clean, it ain't gunna stick."
You MUST scratch up good the area that needs to be bonded and I mean with 40-80
grit and then vacuum it good, then acetone or MEK with a clean cloth, then
sand 40-80 grit again (because wiping with acetone may have spread dirt or residue
into the scratches). Use a paint brush and paint some mixed up resin
onto the clean scratched up surface. Not a lot, just enough to get it wet.
(This should already be done and waiting) - Fiberglass is a woven cloth. You'll
almost always use the weave like small XXX's to get the most strength -
what this means when you unravel the roll of fiberglass you get from Aircraft
Spruce or wherever, you will cut strips of it on a 45 degree angle - ususally
about 2 inches wide - or whatever you need) Do the layup as the link suggests
- although I don't use a sponge to saturate, I just pour it on there and spread
it out with my paint brush - I think the sponge might offer some contaminates
but whatever works. Put plastic on the top and I use a long screw I got from
Home Depot but Aircraft Spruce now has a tool that looks like a miniature rolling
pin but it's grooved like a screw. Get it. Don't push too hard or not
hard enough. You just want to squeeze out excess resin - that's it - if it gets
white, you took out too much resin - put more back in. When you apply the
sandwich, make sure you peel off the plastic.
Sounds stupid but EVERYONE has done it. Use a colored plastic to remind you.
When applied, use your long 4-6 inch screw or tool from ACS and push out as
many air bubbles as you can without pushing out too much resin. You can do you
over and over. If it's starting to cure, and you can't push out anymore, I
use a pin to poke the air bubble until it escapes.
I had a reaction to West System and switched to Jeffco which Aircraft Spruce
sells. It is clear to greenish and has no smell. I like it better. The MOST
important thing is the mixing ratio has to be perfect. After you have your
mixture, you can do whatever you want with it - saturate the cloth, mix up micro,
flox, or whatever. There are no set amounts of the fillers so if you want
micro wet and runny, use less - if you want strength and less pinholes, use
90% micro bubbles and 10% cabosil - which looks like sugar but it contains some
particles to prevent micro from sagging on vertical surfaces, but it also helps
prevent pinholes somewhat.
You will always have pinholes. There is some cool new stuff now called rage
that is a cool filler guaranteed not to have pinholes but you'll still get a
few.
You asked about slow and fast hardeners. Use slow until you get the hang of
it. But definately the factor on both is temperature. 70-75 is ideal. Never
let mixed up resin sit around while you do something else. It will exotherm
or boil and gets hot, smokes, and stinks. When you mix it up, get to it. There
is no stopping resin from curing so if the phone rings, forget it - even
if it's the Million dollar sweepstakes notifying you are a winner!
Have a garbage can ready. Acetone will clean up messes pretty good.
There's a thousand things I could tell you. Making the layup is just one step.
Filling it is a whole other ball game. Never use filler over cured fiberglass
without sanding and cleaning just as before - this time using about 120-180
grit. Make sure the clear appearance is gone. Clean with acetone, sand,
vacuum and paint wet resin and apply filler. I use a razor blade to push it
down into all the holes well without a lot of left over sanding to do.
Here's a trick to save you some time. Use peel-ply exactly like a layer of
glass. Make sure you have it on the TOP and not the bottom when you apply the
layup. When cured, simply peel it off and no sanding or cleaning is necessary
to apply more layers of fiberglass OR apply filler - still paint a thin layer
of wet resin on it though if you need to fill.
When mostly done, ONLY use 3M foam sanding blocks. Spray glue 100-180 grit
to it. I'd use at least a 1 foot block and no less than 6 inches. Spray some
crappy black spray paint on it - let it dry and sand at 45 degrees and then
90. You are looking for high and low spots. You will sand off high and the
paint will show the low. Don't ruin the fiberglass by sanding too low just to
get rid of the low spots. Sand and fill those spots with micro - micro/flox
if they are deeper.
Anyway, I hope this helps a little. My brother Danny (RV-7A) has a nice write
up and description of the entire process with good pictures and it has some
good pointers. I'll find that and send it to you too.
Good luck.
WEAR a mask.
Matt Reeves
Rochester, NY
Bruce Patton <bpattonsoa@yahoo.com> wrote:
That is a Masters Degree in dreaded fiberglass. The think that keeps it
from being a PhD is he left out the sanding of the part that to which the fiberglass
will be applied. Without that, you may have a wonderful mold of the
part when the new glass peals off the old.
Bruce Patton
---------------------------------
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Crossbow vs Pinpoint |
Last October I sat in a conference room at Crossbow and went over each problem
they resolved. All of the problems were of the maturing variety and none pertained
to core technical changes. I was quite puzzled by D2A "toss everything out"
reactions.
I met with Crossbow face-to-face and came away comfortable with their answers
and their product and choose Crossbow for my WTD Aviation Technology primary
flight display product. Two of these units have been installed to date and both
work flawlessly.
During 3 years of investigating and installing gyros it was apparent that the
numbers you get from the gyro depends greatly on the installation. See the attached
photos (yes- we turned the XBow around). By far the best location for the
Crossbow is on a reinforced (stiffened) plate attached to the longerons using
the same holes where the aft end of the rear shoulder harness cable connects
to the longerons. In fact, the shoulder harness cable end was relocated to the
plate. This location allows the gyro to be perfectly aligned with the aircraft
axis and is magnetically minimized from the pitch servo and the trim servo.
Don't let the small size of the trim servo fool you - it casts a magnetic field
20 inches from the unit. Note that the gyro was attached with brass screws.
Looking over the possible locations for the gyro GPS antenna its obvious that
the best probable location is the forward tip of the vertical stablizer and an
easy location is just under the fiberglass fuselage to vertical stab fairing.
Out of curiousity, I took the easy route and it has worked without fail. The
antenna was aligned with the vertical stab to minimize the RF shadow. A status
on my PFD shows when the gyro has locked the GPS constellation and it locks
about one minute after I start my taxi from the hanger. Once locked on it has
never dropped. If it starts dropping out then I will relocate the antenna to the
vertical stab forward tip.
The Crossbow gyro has the capability to calibrate its compass for hard iron interferrence.
From my previous experience with gyros it was obvious that the Crossbow
is very sensitive, so I included the commands necessary to begin and end
this procedure into my PFD product. It is a quick and simple procedure that
will maximize the accuracy.
Now when I look back at D2A they look more like a kool-aid manufacturing company
than an avionics distribution company. They slammed Crossbow far beyond sanity
and then elevated Pinpoint to angel status - always positioning themselves
as heros. Just now, I only believe what I can see and touch on this subject.
And what I have seen is that Crossbow is a very good and very serious engineering
company with experience producing (in quantity) solid state gyros.
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB, Flying
billderou@yahoo.com
Indran,
You won't find much on the list yet for experiences from people flying
with pinpoints, as I think I and Vic the only ones who are, in an RV-10.
There are some other models of aircraft flying the pinpoint though.
Having flown them both, I have some experience behind both of them with
about 70 hours on the crossbow and 125 on the pinpoint. If Crossbow
has all of the bugs completely worked out, which right now I would say
still needs the test of time, then I think you could really use either.
This isn't to say that I don't trust the product, because they have
been much more forthcoming with information in recent months. I just
think we need to see it re-develop a track record...different than
the one it had previously developed. There's no reason why that
unit couldn't be acceptable. The largest more recent problems were
caused by issues with the GPS aiding that were supposedly fixed in
software, so it very well could be good now.
So, lets assume they are both good...then what?
Well, the pinpoint will be a bit easier to install and does include
some benefits as well.
1) It has a remote magnetometer which allows easier mounting in
a magnetically stable location. It is actually quite hard to
find a good location for the 425, because the best I could do
at the time was above the battery, and it doesn't really get
as far out of the area of the battery and AP servo for me to
feel as comfortable with it.
2) The pinpoint comes with its own air data computer, and its
highly accurate. It has been flown next to a known and tested
air data unit in my plane that was also accurate to within 7'
of altitude, and the airspeed on the 2 units matches perfectly
too. So even if you have a 2nd air data system, you now have
multiple systems that you can compare for data.
3) The algorithm within the pinpoint is not at all GPS dependent.
In fact, the GPS is not internally connected at all to the AHRS,
so you will never develop attitude related issues due to GPS
signal loss. I have also tested mine by disconnecting in various
ways the pitot and static lines during turning flight and that
does not upset it either, so it should be very reliable.
4) The pinpoint does have a superior mounting and alignment software
function. You can mount it oriented in any of the 4 directions,
so you're not tied to one specific installation, and in fact you
can mount it under the panel. And due to it's configuration
software on the Chelton, you don't have to be as precise in regards
to the level as others. The calibration procedure is accurate
and much easier, and can be done without a PC...all from the
screen.
The downside to the pinpoint is really the delivery. I don't
know any of the recent specifics as to shipping time, but I'm
sure you could get a Crossbow in short order, where you may
wait 30-60 days I'd suppose for the pinpoint.
As for your comment about strong ties to D2A, I won't go too
into it on this forum, but whereas the pinpoint was perhaps
strongly tied to D2A before, that's just because they were
the only distributor. In fact, today I would say that
there are no companies with "strong ties" to D2A, because
Chelton itself is distributing the pinpoint, and they are also
involved in suing D2A....so there are no warm fuzzies even
by them for the people at D2A. Products are products, and
should be judged on their product quality. Politics aren't
really things that enhance the ability to choose the right
product. There were lots of bad things happening by multiple
parties a year ago. At present, I think the real bad eggs
are now expunged and what's left is the same products being
offered, but from a more reliable source. And Crossbow has
really whipped themselves into a good playing team too...so
you really can't go too awful wrong today.
What you really should do is dig in though on the Chelton
EFIS forum at http://www.CheltonEFISpilots.com, because there
you should be able to ask these questions and get responses
from a much higher number of people who can respond with
actual in-flight experience with either. With either
system, make sure you do a real "by the book" install
and you'll likely have success. The pinpoint just makes
the job easier by it's design. Hopefully we'll eventually
see a similar unit available by another manufacturer like
Crossbow, as the design itself is much easier to work with.
For the small price difference today though, I myself
would choose the pinpoint if I was in your shoes.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Indran Chelvanayagam wrote:
> Guys, as part of the D2A recovery package from Lancair avionics, I've
> been offered the choice between a Pinpoint and a Crossbow 425EX AHRS
> (Crossbow is cheaper)
>
> I realise that Crossbow had problems with this model, but they claim to
> have fixed them all
> On the other hand, Pinpoint is a relatively "new" (and small?) company,
> with strong ties to D2A.
>
> What are the experiences regarding installing & flying these different
> units?
>
> Indran
> #40228
>
> *
Message 34
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| Subject: | What starter materials for fiberglass would you recommend? |
Imron (DuPont tm) was the rage twenty years ago (oh gosh, it was over
30) when I painted a Frat Fire truck and a bunch of Corvettes. It was
the first beer or fuel impervious paint. Due to my affinity for BMWs, I
have come to appreciate the Sikkens line. Azko does pretty well as an
alternative. For downright common sense and cost, I think both Randy
and Tim hit it on the head with PPG White. Randy's was GMC color and
Tim's was Base tint. You can't get closer for panel repair after a
hangar rash incident.
Scott, you can pipe in here about your tail and your Pearl. We have
missed your posts... your night shots are beautiful.
Two part catalytic or Clear Topcoat sanded with 1500 or 2000 and then
three step power buff cannot be beat. But then again it's just an
opinion and boy does it take hours (days). I hear Deems chuckle in the
background that I just slid back to a completion date in 2021.
John
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Reeves
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 8:53 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: What starter materials for fiberglass would you
recommend?
Thanks for the kind words John!! I'm more than happy to help out anyone
who has questions with fiberglass. I'm not an expert, just a guy with
an opinion and a hell of a lot of sanding under my belt!!
<http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/04.gif>
mattreeves@yahoo.com
John, what's your opinion on Sikkens vs. Imron? I've always used Imron
5 & 6000 and LOVE it but heard Sikkens is more user friendly. I did
see an RV-7A painted with Sikkens and buffed to perfection and it was
awesome!
Just wondering.
Have a great day.
Matt
"John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> wrote:
Matt, after thirty years of car restoration and yes, aircraft
painting. I can clearly endorse your below post as a treatise for a
"Masters in Fiberglas" in 1,000 words or less (935 to be exact).
RV-10 builders should use this as a roadmap to their diploma's
as well. They may have a little trouble with visualization of some of
the products right now, but in time, they will go Wow, "Matt really knew
his stuff".
Lance was right, if it's not Clean it won't stick. If the air
is too humid, it won't stick. 70-75 the porridge should be just right.
That is air temperature and the temperature of the resin.
John Cox
Message 35
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| Subject: | Crossbow vs Pinpoint |
Bill your comments on brass hardware rather than S. steel is a great
post specially for sailors. I am curious about other builders
determining where the CG and CL is on their aircraft. Lycoming reports
that the CG on their engine is 0.5" below the crankshaft centerline.
The human torso has a CG even lower sitting on those Oregon Aero seats.
Wouldn't the cross mount to longeron actually be about 3.5" higher than
perfection. And is that a determination on magnetic, ferrous and
electro-magnetic neutrality?
I am considering a further aft and outboard to the starboard, battery
tray and was wondering about such things. I am aware that VAN declares
112.3" aft of datum the perfect CG. That would put it right in the
middle of Deems Console under his lid.
John Cox
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
DeRouchey
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Crossbow vs Pinpoint
Last October I sat in a conference room at Crossbow and went over each
problem they resolved. All of the problems were of the maturing variety
and none pertained to core technical changes. I was quite puzzled by D2A
"toss everything out" reactions.
I met with Crossbow face-to-face and came away comfortable with their
answers and their product and choose Crossbow for my WTD Aviation
Technology primary flight display product. Two of these units have been
installed to date and both work flawlessly.
During 3 years of investigating and installing gyros it was apparent
that the numbers you get from the gyro depends greatly on the
installation. See the attached photos (yes- we turned the XBow around).
By far the best location for the Crossbow is on a reinforced (stiffened)
plate attached to the longerons using the same holes where the aft end
of the rear shoulder harness cable connects to the longerons. In fact,
the shoulder harness cable end was relocated to the plate. This location
allows the gyro to be perfectly aligned with the aircraft axis and is
magnetically minimized from the pitch servo and the trim servo. Don't
let the small size of the trim servo fool you - it casts a magnetic
field 20 inches from the unit. Note that the gyro was attached with
brass screws.
Looking over the possible locations for the gyro GPS antenna its obvious
that the best probable location is the forward tip of the vertical
stablizer and an easy location is just under the fiberglass fuselage to
vertical stab fairing. Out of curiousity, I took the easy route and it
has worked without fail. The antenna was aligned with the vertical stab
to minimize the RF shadow. A status on my PFD shows when the gyro has
locked the GPS constellation and it locks about one minute after I start
my taxi from the hanger. Once locked on it has never dropped. If it
starts dropping out then I will relocate the antenna to the vertical
stab forward tip.
The Crossbow gyro has the capability to calibrate its compass for hard
iron interferrence. From my previous experience with gyros it was
obvious that the Crossbow is very sensitive, so I included the commands
necessary to begin and end this procedure into my PFD product. It is a
quick and simple procedure that will maximize the accuracy.
Now when I look back at D2A they look more like a kool-aid manufacturing
company than an avionics distribution company. They slammed Crossbow far
beyond sanity and then elevated Pinpoint to angel status - always
positioning themselves as heros. Just now, I only believe what I can see
and touch on this subject. And what I have seen is that Crossbow is a
very good and very serious engineering company with experience producing
(in quantity) solid state gyros.
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB, Flying
billderou@yahoo.com
<http://us.f344.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=billderou@yahoo.com>
Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
Indran,
You won't find much on the list yet for experiences from people flying
with pinpoints, as I think I and Vic the only ones who are, in an RV-10.
There are some other models of aircraft flying the pinpoint though.
Having flown them both, I have some experience behind both of them with
about 70 hours on the crossbow and 125 on the pinpoint. If Crossbow
has all of the bugs completely worked out, which right now I would say
still needs the test of time, then I think you could really use either.
This isn't to say that I don't trust the product, because they have
been much more forthcoming with information in recent months. I just
think we need to see it re-develop a track record...different than
the one it had previously developed. There's no reason why that
unit couldn't be acceptable. The largest more recent problems were
caused by issues with the GPS aiding that were supposedly fixed in
software, so it very well could be good now.
So, lets assume they are both good...then what?
Well, the pinpoint will be a bit easier to install and does include
some benefits as well.
1) It has a remote magnetometer which allows easier mounting in
a magnetically stable location. It is actually quite hard to
find a good location for the 425, because the best I could do
at the time was above the battery, and it doesn't really get
as far out of the area of the battery and AP servo for me to
feel as comfortable with it.
2) The pinpoint comes with its own air data computer, and its
highly accurate. It has been flown next to a known and tested
air data unit in my plane that was also accurate to within 7'
of altitude, and the airspeed on the 2 units matches perfectly
too. So even if you have a 2nd air data system, you now have
multiple systems that you can compare for data.
3) The algorithm within the pinpoint is not at all GPS dependent.
In fact, the GPS is not internally connected at all to the AHRS,
so you will never develop attitude related issues due to GPS
signal loss. I have also tested mine by disconnecting in various
ways the pitot and static lines during turning flight and that
does not upset it either, so it should be very reliable.
4) The pinpoint does have a superior mounting and alignment software
function. You can mount it oriented in any of the 4 directions,
so you're not tied to one specific installation, and in fact you
can mount it under the panel. And due to it's configuration
software on the Chelton, you don't have to be as precise in regards
to the level as others. The calibration procedure is accurate
and much easier, and can be done without a PC...all from the
screen.
The downside to the pinpoint is really the delivery. I don't
know any of the recent specifics as to shipping time, but I'm
sure you could get a Crossbow in short order, where you may
wait 30-60 days I'd suppose for the pinpoint.
As for your comment about strong ties to D2A, I won't go too
into it on this forum, but whereas the pinpoint was perhaps
strongly tied to D2A before, that's just because they were
the only distributor. In fact, today I would say that
there are no companies with "strong ties" to D2A, because
Chelton itself is distributing the pinpoint, and they are also
involved in suing D2A....so there are no warm fuzzies even
by them for the people at D2A. Products are products, and
should be judged on their product quality. Politics aren't
really things that enhance the ability to choose the right
product. There were lots of bad things happening by multiple
parties a year ago. At present, I think the real bad eggs
are now expunged and what's left is the same products being
offered, but from a more reliable source. And Crossbow has
really whipped themselves into a good playing team too...so
you really can't go too awful wrong today.
What you really should do is dig in though on the Chelton
EFIS forum at http://www.CheltonEFISpilots.com, because there
you should be able to ask these questions and get responses
from a much higher number of people who can respond with
actual in-flight experience with either. With either
system, make sure you do a real "by the book" install
and you'll likely have success. The pinpoint just makes
the job easier by it's design. Hopefully we'll eventually
see a similar unit available by another manufacturer like
Crossbow, as the design itself is much easier to work with.
For the small price difference today though, I myself
would choose the pinpoint if I was in your shoes.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Indran Chelvanayagam wrote:
> Guys, as part of the D2A recovery package from Lancair avionics, I've
> been offered the choice between a Pinpoint and a Crossbow 425EX AHRS
> (Crossbow is cheaper)
>
> I realise that Crossbow had problems with this model, but they claim
to
> have fixed them all
> On the other hand, Pinpoint is a relatively "new" (and small?)
company,
> with strong ties to D2A.
>
> What are the experiences regarding installing & flying these different
Message 36
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| Subject: | RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
James, I appreciate your effort and quantifying the endeavor we have all
embarked on. The first step as you have already read is to level the
playing field. A brand new life altering/ prideful RV-10 vs. a used 30
year old Archer will not be too similar but I understand.
Insurance quote needs correction. Hangar/storage costs needs equity in
your estimate technique - same storage technique - the RV-10 will hold
up longer. I think you are weighting it to make a used TC aircraft to
be similar to a Hi-performance self maintained dream machine.
Go out and fly in the back seat of an RV-10 - yes the back seat. At
6'3" and 240 pounds your comparison will be over. You can't get a panel
even remotely close to an RV-10 within $100,000. Get an IFR ticket if
you don't already have it. Get some 250+ horsepower time. Learn that
with MAP and RPM setting you can trim back the throttle to get the same
anemic performance from the RV-10 with the same miserly fuel flow per
hour as that worn out Archer. Be realistic on the future cost to buy
parts for the Archer and pay a mechanic to do the repairs. A close
friend made the decision on a 1986 C-182 at $136,000, then two years
later put another $40,000 into an engine replacement. Level the field
and come on in, the water is Great.
If I win the Lottery I will give you my RV-10 cause I am upgrading to an
Epic. You have to pay if you want to play... the Lottery that is.
John Cox
Do not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S.
Clark IV
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 3:23 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
I would appreciate hearing peoples comments on the following
comparison (archer vs RV10). Don't start laughing yet :)
I am doing this for budgetary planning purposes against something
that I am familiar with.
I would like to know if people think some of these numbers are off
the mark.
I know people will scream these planes are not even in the same
category (mostly in speed, newness, & avionics). Otherwise both are 4
seaters, with only slightly different useful loads.
I know people will say its not the aircraft its the buy/build
decision, but honestly I would enjoy either process.
The following assumptions are used:
I am convinced I would LOVE building, not just flying. We do have the
time/patience to build.
Financing for loan payments (forced home refi due to balloon payment
coming due - 6.25% 30 year fixed with cash out to purchase 1/2 of
aircraft):
Shared ownership/building with each owner purchasing half
$4 fuel / gallon
Insurance for low time IFR pilot (250 total hours, only 30 complex in
a mooney).
200 total hours / year on aircraft (~100 per owner)
RV-10:
Total Loan Amount $150,000
Total loan payment per month: $924
Hanger / month: %330 a must to protect all the hard work
Gallons / hour: 12
Cruise Speed: 165 knots
Useful Load: 1180
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: $5000???
Maintenance / year: 1000 parts, free labor??
Fuel Cost / year: 9600
Total / year: 30,642
Total / month: $2554
Total / individual / month: 1277
Cost per flight hour: 153
Available: 3 years from now (but with fun experience of building)
Features: NEW everything, owner KNOWs aircraft inside & out
1976 Used Piper Archer II
Total Loan Amount 65k
Total loan payment per month: $400
Tiedown / month: 85 (tiedown ok for used plane)
Gallons / hour: 10
Cruise Speed: 120 knots
Useful Load: 1008
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: 2500???
Maintenance / year: 3000 parts/labor
Fuel Cost / year: 8000
Total / year: 19322
Total / month: 1610
Total / individual / month: 805
Cost per flight hour: 97
Available: 2 weeks
Features: Used, average paint, IFR ready now, dull and boring (not
much owner maintenance)
Do these look like reasonable numbers? Do the monthly operations
costs seem right?
I have attached a spreadsheet so those who want to change my numbers
may do so. I'd appreciate a copy back of your ideas if you think my
numbers should be changed. Especially the insurance figures. What is
everyone else paying for insurance with various numbers of piloting
hours. Also attached is an updated RV10 budget including many of the
hidden costs offered up by list members (others still yet to be
included).
Thanks in advance,
Jim Clark
-Trying to figure out how to win the lottery...cowering in
expectation of responses to my questions...
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