Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:37 AM - Re: Headliner Install (Rob Kermanj)
2. 06:17 AM - Re: Experimental Inquiry (Russell Daves)
3. 06:46 AM - Re: tubing bender (llsbiii3@netzero.net)
4. 07:29 AM - Re: Experimental Inquiry (James K Hovis)
5. 07:37 AM - tubing cutter?? (John Gonzalez)
6. 08:52 AM - Re: Re: RV Fly-In, Madison, Ky, I39, This Sat ()
7. 10:40 AM - Re: tubing cutter?? (JOHN STARN)
8. 10:56 AM - Re: tubing cutter?? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
9. 02:01 PM - Re: tubing bender (linn Walters)
10. 02:05 PM - Re: tubing bender (linn Walters)
11. 04:54 PM - Re: RV Fly-In, Madison, Ky, I39, This Sat (Bruce Snyder)
12. 05:56 PM - IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) (James S. Clark IV)
13. 06:42 PM - Re: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) (John W. Cox)
14. 07:04 PM - Re: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) (Jesse Saint)
15. 07:14 PM - Re: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) (James S. Clark IV)
16. 07:17 PM - FAA Meeting (Jesse Saint)
17. 08:13 PM - Re: infant ear protectors (PILOTDDS@aol.com)
18. 08:55 PM - Re: Re: infant ear protectors (Tim Olson)
19. 08:56 PM - Re: Engine Mount Hole Alignment to Firewall (Rob Wright)
20. 09:18 PM - Re: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) (bob.kaufmann)
21. 10:44 PM - Re: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) (ddddsp1@juno.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Headliner Install |
Can you provide pictures?
Do not archive
On Feb 19, 2007, at 7:14 PM, Thane States wrote:
> Hello to you all. I am new to posting on this site, but I thought I
> would share something about the headliner install debacle.
> I will be using the flight line interior from Abby. As many of you
> know it is difficult to get a good finished look around the windows.
> Here is what I did: After carefully installing my headliner,
> trimming around edges, and then using a soldering iron to seal the
> edges. I used "Style Guard" Door trim, for automobiles, purchased
> from Pep Boys; 25' roll,(Black) I carefully put it around the
> window edges, using a putty knife to help it over the edge and keep
> the fabric from pushing out. I then used a heat gun to set the
> glue and it turned out beautiful. For the tight corners, I applied
> some heat to the trim to help it bend around. Once you do this,
> the glue will want to close up the trim, so again I just ran a
> putty knife between it to help it over the edge.
> If anyone would like any further info, I would be happy to share
> what worked for me. I don't know if anyone else used this
> technique, but I am very pleased with the result.
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List_-
> ============================================================ _-
> forums.matronics.com_-
> ===========================================================
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Inquiry |
Wayne asked me to post this. He is having some problems posting:
Russ Daves
With regards to the discussion on placing the "Experimental" marking on
the inside of the plane, here is the FAR that covers this. But having
looked at several planes it appear it isn't always followed.
Wayne Edgerton #40336
=A7 45.23 Display of marks; general
(a) Each operator of an aircraft shall display on that aircraft marks
consisting of the Roman capital letter "N" (denoting United States
registration) followed by the registration number of the aircraft. Each
suffix letter used in the marks displayed must also be a Roman capital
letter.
(b) When marks that include only the Roman capital letter "N" and the
registration number are displayed on limited or restricted category
aircraft or experimental or provisionally certificated aircraft, the
operator shall also display on that aircraft near each entrance to the
cabin or cockpit, in letters not less than 2 inches nor more than 6
inches in height, the words "limited," "restricted," "experimental," or
"provisional airworthiness," as the case may be.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: tubing bender |
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:of
fice" />
Take a look at the Imperial 470. It has a smaller radius and will bend
a 180. At Aircraft spruce for less than $40.
Sherman Butler
Idaho Falls.
<html><BR>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><?xml:namespace prefi
x = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT fa
ce="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times N
ew Roman" size=3>Take a look at the Imperial 470.<SPAN style="mso-sp
acerun: yes"> </SPAN>It has a smaller radius and will bend a 180.<
SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>At Aircraft spruce for le
ss than $40.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT face="Ti
mes New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times N
ew Roman" size=3>Sherman Butler </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times N
ew Roman" size=3>Idaho Falls.</FONT></P>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Inquiry |
Russ / Wayne,
The intent here is to give warning to "unsuspecting" passengers that
the airplane they are geting into is NOT a TC type aircraft. As long
as the required placards are visible to the passengers when they enter
the aircraft, they can be applied just about anywhere and the DAR
should approve. The reg doesn't mean the placard has to be on the
outside of the aircraft. Personally, I'd rather have a placard that
said: " This aircraft was built by the person sitting to your left (or
ahead/behind as the case may be). If you do not trust that this person
built this aircraft correctly or has the capacity to be an effective
pilot, then get the hell out of the airplane."
Kevin H.
On 2/20/07, Russell Daves <dav1111@cox.net> wrote:
> Wayne asked me to post this. He is having some problems posting:
>
> Russ Daves
>
> With regards to the discussion on placing the "Experimental" marking on the
> inside of the plane, here is the FAR that covers this. But having looked at
> several planes it appear it isn't always followed.
>
> Wayne Edgerton #40336
>
> 45.23 Display of marks; general
> (a) Each operator of an aircraft shall display on that aircraft marks
> consisting of the Roman capital letter "N" (denoting United States
> registration) followed by the registration number of the aircraft. Each
> suffix letter used in the marks displayed must also be a Roman capital
> letter.
>
> (b) When marks that include only the Roman capital letter "N" and the
> registration number are displayed on limited or restricted category aircraft
> or experimental or provisionally certificated aircraft, the operator shall
> also display on that aircraft near each entrance to the cabin or cockpit, in
> letters not less than 2 inches nor more than 6 inches in height, the words
> "limited," "restricted," "experimental," or "provisional airworthiness," as
> the case may be.
>
Message 5
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I should have asked this question yesterday when I asked about the tubing
bender.
What are people using to cut the tubing. Does anyone make a cutter similar
to the ones used in plumbing for cutting copper pipe? I don't seem to see
anything advertised, or is it easy enough to cut the tube with a dremel and
seperating disk?
Suggestions.
Thanks,
JOhn G. 409
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RV Fly-In, Madison, Ky, I39, This Sat |
Here are some directions for those who might be driving.
Providing there is good weather, there will be a fly-in at the Madison County airport
this Saturday, the 24th. People usually start showing up around 10 - 12.
It will primarily be Vansaircraft kitplanes (3,4,6,6A,7,7A,8,8A,9,9A, and
maybe a 10 if we are lucky) It's not limited to RV's but this will make up most
of the planes there. There is no cost for the event other than they take donations.
The airport is off the 77 exit, turn right and then your next right
at the gas station then follow the road out till you get to airport road. You
can follow the green airport signs from the highway and find it quite easy.
Do Not Archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: tubing cutter?? |
YES...Ridgid makes replacement wheels for cutting all types of materials
from stainless to thin wall PVC. (Yes, Virginia there are lots of different
types) Most larger plumbing/air conditioning supply house's have them or
order the type required for your brand of cutter on line. www.ridgid.com
KABONG Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
Subject: RV10-List: tubing cutter??
> What are people using to cut the tubing. Does anyone make a cutter similar
> to the ones used in plumbing for cutting copper pipe? I don't seem to see
> anything advertised, or is it easy enough to cut the tube with a dremel
> and seperating disk?
> Suggestions.
> Thanks,
> JOhn G. 409
Message 8
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You bet! It happens to look identical to the one you use for cutting
copper pipe and you can get it from any Lowes Depot type store. ;-)
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 9:34 AM
Subject: RV10-List: tubing cutter??
<indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
I should have asked this question yesterday when I asked about the
tubing
bender.
What are people using to cut the tubing. Does anyone make a cutter
similar
to the ones used in plumbing for cutting copper pipe? I don't seem to
see
anything advertised, or is it easy enough to cut the tube with a dremel
and
seperating disk?
Suggestions.
Thanks,
JOhn G. 409
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: tubing bender |
John, FWIW, I like the benders (break types?) with long handles ......
more expensive than the 'aviation' benders (which Harbor Freight also
sells for smaller ODs) but far easier to get good bends. Check
McMaster-carr or Grainger. The 'Springy' benders are for ...... Hmmm,
what are they for????
Linn
John Gonzalez wrote:
>
> I need to order a tubing bender from Avery today, for the brake and
> fuel lines. Should have orderred it when I orderred my flaring tool!
>
> Any recommendations. I see that there are spring type overserts and
> then there is the break type bender around a radius. Should I get both
> and what are the differences between the break types?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John G. 409
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: tubing bender |
Great idea, but use sugar instead of sand. It washes out clean!!!!
Linn
Carl Froehlich wrote:
>
>On one occasion I had to make a tight bend in 3/8" tubing, but both of these
>type tube benders produced a kink in the tubing. For this one bend I took a
>short piece of tubing, flared both ends (after putting on the nuts), filled
>it with sand and then capped off the ends. After making the bend I trimmed
>the tubing to fit and re-flared. It took about three tries to get it right.
>
>If you do this make sure you use air to blow out the sand, followed by a
>flush.
>
>I found the fine grain sand at craft stores to work best.
>
>Carl Froehlich
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim Lewis
>Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 3:36 PM
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: tubing bender
>
>
>
>I've found having both is handy.
>
>--
>Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
>RV-6A N47TD -- 850 hrs
>RV-10 #40059 under construction
>
>
>John Gonzalez wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I need to order a tubing bender from Avery today, for the brake and
>>fuel lines. Should have orderred it when I orderred my flaring tool!
>>
>>Any recommendations. I see that there are spring type overserts and
>>then there is the break type bender around a radius. Should I get both
>>and what are the differences between the break types?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>John G. 409
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | RV Fly-In, Madison, Ky, I39, This Sat |
There is usually a formation flyover or two. They also have door prizes that
are donated from various companies. Donuts and coffee in the morning,
Hooters wings for lunch, complete with a few Hooters girls. All for
whatever you want to donate. Lots of RVs with the ramp/taxiways full so get
there as early as you can, especially if the weather is nice.
Bruce
40353
Fuselage
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GenGrumpy@aol.com
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV Fly-In, Madison, Ky, I39, This Sat
Anybody have more details??
grumpy
40404
In a message dated 2/19/2007 9:53:27 PM Central Standard Time,
snyderbd888@sbcglobal.net writes:
I'm planning on coming down from Dayton in an Arrow (been there the last 4
years and it's a great get together).
Bruce
40353
Fuselage
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Parlow
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:21 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RV Fly-In, Madison, Ky, I39, This Sat
Who's going?
4th Annual RV Fly-In
at I39 in Madison, KY
Forecast is for partly sunny and 62.
I'm flying from Williamsport, PA in the Archer.
ERic--
40014
N104EP
Fiberglass
Message 12
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| Subject: | IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
Linn, I like the idea on the panel. I'd be interested in hearing more
about your panel choices.
Tim, sorry for the confusion: no I don't plan to borrow all 150k, but
for budgeting I think it is good to plan for the lost earnings that
those dollars could be used for if not tied up in an aircraft (or toy).
I am interested in cost savings though: Specifically, if an IFR RV-10
is a must (even if using steam gauges), what is the lowest reasonable
target figure? I find it very hard to come in at <130. But I have
heard several say lower. What am I missing?
I have heard the following suggestions which I like very much:
Don't paint right away. -Jesse, how does this change if stored outside?
Store RV-10 outside (ouch, I don't know if I can live with this). How
well will an RV-10 endure VA weather with covers? If I know up front
it will be stored outside, any special priming areas I should consider?
Save money on engine - don't get new (with conflicting ideas on how
much this saves) - various posters
Buy steam gauges for first panel (but still IFR), wait to go glass
IFR for later if mission/desires dictate. Try to keep panel
instruments from first panel revision, useful for 2nd panel down the
road. - Linn
Go slow build to save...-various
John, thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate the comparison with the
Archer and like Jesse's idea about fewer wasted pit stops.
Bill, thanks for your comparison of the archer. I would be interested
if you have any numbers on how much savings can be expected in the
maintenance. What would be your yearly numbers for each?
What would others consider a minimalist RV-10 IFR panel?
Thanks for all your help,
Best regards,
Jim Clark
On Feb 20, 2007, at 4:45 PM, linn Walters wrote:
> James, It's really hard to compare a new RV-10 with a '76 Archer.
> If you do, the $150K for the comparable RV-10 is way too high .....
> mostly because of the panel comparison. The Archer has older
> radios and steam gauges ..... and they can be had comparably cheap
> on the used market. I think 100K is a more reasonable figure for
> the -10 unless you get really wild with glass panel and avionics.
> There's also the auto-pilot in the Archer (if it has one) Vs. a new
> GPSS compatible autopilot in the -10. You also need to consider
> your mission ..... how you fly. When I started gathering info on
> the -10, I looked at a full glass-panel and IFR capable GPS and
> autopilot. I've now backed off and am considering an 'Archer
> panel' and will build the fancy one ..... IF MY MISSION REQUIRES
> IT. Almost all the stuff in the simple panel will be used in a
> fancy panel .... with the exception of a few guages.
>
> You also have to balance your time spent building the RV-10 (which
> is going to be much faster) Vs. the slower Archer .... again, a
> mission thingy. I didn't look at all the costs .... because I know
> nothing of either the Archer or the RV-10. There is also some
> value of being able to install just about anything 'new' in your
> RV-10 without having to worry about expensive STCs and 337s ......
> which you'll need to get the Archer to the level of the RV-10.
>
> Sorry I didn't answer your question, but I hope I gave you
> something to ponder .... as if you really needed it!!!
> Linn
>
> James S. Clark IV wrote:
>
>> I would appreciate hearing peoples comments on the following
>> comparison (archer vs RV10). Don't start laughing yet :)
>> I am doing this for budgetary planning purposes against something
>> that I am familiar with.
>> I would like to know if people think some of these numbers are
>> off the mark.
>> I know people will scream these planes are not even in the same
>> category (mostly in speed, newness, & avionics). Otherwise both
>> are 4 seaters, with only slightly different useful loads.
>> I know people will say its not the aircraft its the buy/build
>> decision, but honestly I would enjoy either process.
>>
>> The following assumptions are used:
>> I am convinced I would LOVE building, not just flying. We do have
>> the time/patience to build.
>> Financing for loan payments (forced home refi due to balloon
>> payment coming due - 6.25% 30 year fixed with cash out to
>> purchase 1/2 of aircraft):
>> Shared ownership/building with each owner purchasing half
>> $4 fuel / gallon
>> Insurance for low time IFR pilot (250 total hours, only 30 complex
>> in a mooney).
>> 200 total hours / year on aircraft (~100 per owner)
>>
>> RV-10:
>> Total Loan Amount $150,000
>> Total loan payment per month: $924
>> Hanger / month: %330 a must to protect all the hard work
>> Gallons / hour: 12
>> Cruise Speed: 165 knots
>> Useful Load: 1180
>> Seats: 4
>> Insurance / year: $5000???
>> Maintenance / year: 1000 parts, free labor??
>> Fuel Cost / year: 9600
>> Total / year: 30,642
>> Total / month: $2554
>> Total / individual / month: 1277
>> Cost per flight hour: 153
>> Available: 3 years from now (but with fun experience of building)
>> Features: NEW everything, owner KNOWs aircraft inside & out
>>
>> 1976 Used Piper Archer II
>> Total Loan Amount 65k
>> Total loan payment per month: $400
>> Tiedown / month: 85 (tiedown ok for used plane)
>> Gallons / hour: 10
>> Cruise Speed: 120 knots
>> Useful Load: 1008
>> Seats: 4
>> Insurance / year: 2500???
>> Maintenance / year: 3000 parts/labor
>> Fuel Cost / year: 8000
>> Total / year: 19322
>> Total / month: 1610
>> Total / individual / month: 805
>> Cost per flight hour: 97
>> Available: 2 weeks
>> Features: Used, average paint, IFR ready now, dull and boring
>> (not much owner maintenance)
>>
>> Do these look like reasonable numbers? Do the monthly operations
>> costs seem right?
>> I have attached a spreadsheet so those who want to change my
>> numbers may do so. I'd appreciate a copy back of your ideas if
>> you think my numbers should be changed. Especially the insurance
>> figures. What is everyone else paying for insurance with various
>> numbers of piloting hours. Also attached is an updated RV10
>> budget including many of the hidden costs offered up by list
>> members (others still yet to be included).
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Jim Clark
>> -Trying to figure out how to win the lottery...cowering in
>> expectation of responses to my questions...
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
The minimalist panel is not IFR it is VFR as VAN designed with steam
gages. Stay away from induction and control surface icing and get the
most out of a minimalist budget. Save panel real estate for the point in
time you have the amended perspective. You will be quite pleased. The
only big change since it was first introduced is the inflation rate
applied , by VAN to the kit components and the drying up of used IO-540
cores as VAN had originally budgeted. Randy used a reconditioned prop
and there has been little discussion on the value of that route.
Know your mission, do not sell yourself short.
John Cox
#40600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S.
Clark IV
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:53 PM
Subject: RV10-List: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
<james.s.clark@comcast.net>
Linn, I like the idea on the panel. I'd be interested in hearing more
about your panel choices.
Tim, sorry for the confusion: no I don't plan to borrow all 150k, but
for budgeting I think it is good to plan for the lost earnings that
those dollars could be used for if not tied up in an aircraft (or toy).
I am interested in cost savings though: Specifically, if an IFR RV-10
is a must (even if using steam gauges), what is the lowest reasonable
target figure? I find it very hard to come in at <130. But I have
heard several say lower. What am I missing?
I have heard the following suggestions which I like very much:
Don't paint right away. -Jesse, how does this change if stored outside?
Store RV-10 outside (ouch, I don't know if I can live with this). How
well will an RV-10 endure VA weather with covers? If I know up front
it will be stored outside, any special priming areas I should consider?
Save money on engine - don't get new (with conflicting ideas on how
much this saves) - various posters
Buy steam gauges for first panel (but still IFR), wait to go glass
IFR for later if mission/desires dictate. Try to keep panel
instruments from first panel revision, useful for 2nd panel down the
road. - Linn
Go slow build to save...-various
John, thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate the comparison with the
Archer and like Jesse's idea about fewer wasted pit stops.
Bill, thanks for your comparison of the archer. I would be interested
if you have any numbers on how much savings can be expected in the
maintenance. What would be your yearly numbers for each?
What would others consider a minimalist RV-10 IFR panel?
Thanks for all your help,
Best regards,
Jim Clark
Message 14
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| Subject: | IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
I will reply below.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S. Clark IV
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:53 PM
Subject: RV10-List: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
<james.s.clark@comcast.net>
Linn, I like the idea on the panel. I'd be interested in hearing more
about your panel choices.
Tim, sorry for the confusion: no I don't plan to borrow all 150k, but
for budgeting I think it is good to plan for the lost earnings that
those dollars could be used for if not tied up in an aircraft (or toy).
[Jesse Saint] Very valid point - always good to include opportunity cost.
I am interested in cost savings though: Specifically, if an IFR RV-10
is a must (even if using steam gauges), what is the lowest reasonable
target figure? I find it very hard to come in at <130. But I have
heard several say lower. What am I missing?
[Jesse Saint] I would say that, if you are using a new engine and prop, the
$150,000 mark is hard to beat by much, but can probably be done if done very
carefully.
I have heard the following suggestions which I like very much:
Don't paint right away. -Jesse, how does this change if stored outside?
[Jesse Saint] First of all, let me say that I don't necessarily highly
recommend this, but it is a way to cut down on the initial investment if you
can't cut it. It would definitely be my recommendation to go ahead and
paint before flying, but it can be done without. If you are going to store
it outside, then you would at least want to prime all of the fiberglass with
UV protection. Either way, I would recommend getting a decent coat of
primer on the whole thing before flying, because it is probably easier to
get oil and crud off a coat of primer, even by some sanding, than off the
metal and out of the pinholes, rivet holes and seams in the skins. Even if
you paint on a fairly crude primer (not professionally applied) which can be
sanded down/smooth when you get to final painting time, this would help.
Again, I would recommend painting ahead of time if you can spring for it.
Store RV-10 outside (ouch, I don't know if I can live with this). How
well will an RV-10 endure VA weather with covers? If I know up front
it will be stored outside, any special priming areas I should consider?
Save money on engine - don't get new (with conflicting ideas on how
much this saves) - various posters
[Jesse Saint] I know a guy who got a used engine for under $20,000 in great
condition, and he tore it down and reassembled it with all new gaskets (it
had been sitting a while) and should end up with a good powerplant, but
those are not easy to find.
Buy steam gauges for first panel (but still IFR), wait to go glass
IFR for later if mission/desires dictate. Try to keep panel
instruments from first panel revision, useful for 2nd panel down the
road. - Linn
[Jesse Saint] I would start out with an inexpensive EFIS/EMS (Dynon
FlightDEK is a great way to get started), as you will get flight instruments
and engine monitoring at less than the price of a half-decent set of steam
gauges. You can even decide what you may want in a radio stack later and
get the wiring harnesses and trays from someone like Stark, and then add the
actual instruments when you have the money. Starting out with an SL-40 and
a GTX-327 is a cheap way to get COM and XPNDR, and then the SL-40 can be
backup when you add something like a 430, 480 or 530, if you are going to be
going that route. Notice that a common VFR panel has the SL-40, GTX-327,
GMA-340 and a 296 or 396, along with a Dynon or similar EFIS/EMS. This is a
great way to get a very functional panel that can be easily added to.
Go slow build to save...-various
John, thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate the comparison with the
Archer and like Jesse's idea about fewer wasted pit stops.
Bill, thanks for your comparison of the archer. I would be interested
if you have any numbers on how much savings can be expected in the
maintenance. What would be your yearly numbers for each?
What would others consider a minimalist RV-10 IFR panel?
[Jesse Saint] Dynon FlightDEK or combination of EFIS and EMS
Garmin GMA-340
Garmin GNS-430
Garmin G?-106A
Garmin SL-40
Garmin GTX-327
TruTrak ADI
A couple of cheap Backups
Actually, with a good TruTrak autopilot (read SORCERER!!!) and a Garmin 396,
this is a very functional and practical IFR package on a budget. My dad has
almost this exact panel and has flown a lot of quite hard IFR with no
problems. He has the Digiflight II, but the Sorcerer takes that much more
guess-work out of flying and leaves the pilot more time for general
situational awareness and planning ahead. Yes, those fancy EFIS systems are
awesome, but if you are on a budget, this is, IMHO, almost a perfect panel.
Thanks for all your help,
Best regards,
Jim Clark
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
John,
I'm not sure I followed everything in your post, or how it was meant
to apply to me.
Just to clear things up: I am not interested in a minimalist VFR
panel. I will build an IFR plane or I will buy an IFR TC aircraft. I
am trying to budget these options with some detail.
My mission is quite clear to me: End up with a 4 seat IFR platform
that I can use for several years (it doesn't have to be the top of
the line or my final configuration for the first few years). This
platform may have steam gauges (archer or other) or electronic flight
instruments or glass flight instruments (RV10).
My question was intended to get people's ideas on a reasonable
minimal cost IFR panel for the RV10. It seems that roughly no matter
how I cut it: Quickbuild + Shipping + New Engine +FWF = 100k.
Avionics + Finishing is where I have choices and drastically
different costs.
For example one possible IFR option:
2 GRT EFIS 1 + EIS
8000B audio panel
GNS480
DigiFlight-IIVSGV
SL30 NavCom
GTX327
ADI, Alt, AS, Compass
The above adds roughly 33k. The remainder in the spreadsheet version
3 I have sent out seem to come to 14k more (including some nice
hidden costs that Anh sent out)
Naturally, I will do everything within my power and budget not to
"sell myself short".
Best regards,
Jim Clark
-Still learning the ropes...
On Feb 20, 2007, at 9:39 PM, John W. Cox wrote:
> <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
>
> The minimalist panel is not IFR it is VFR as VAN designed with steam
> gages. Stay away from induction and control surface icing and get the
> most out of a minimalist budget. Save panel real estate for the
> point in
> time you have the amended perspective. You will be quite pleased. The
> only big change since it was first introduced is the inflation rate
> applied , by VAN to the kit components and the drying up of used
> IO-540
> cores as VAN had originally budgeted. Randy used a reconditioned prop
> and there has been little discussion on the value of that route.
>
> Know your mission, do not sell yourself short.
>
> John Cox
> #40600
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S.
> Clark IV
> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:53 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
>
> <james.s.clark@comcast.net>
>
> Linn, I like the idea on the panel. I'd be interested in hearing more
> about your panel choices.
>
> Tim, sorry for the confusion: no I don't plan to borrow all 150k, but
> for budgeting I think it is good to plan for the lost earnings that
> those dollars could be used for if not tied up in an aircraft (or
> toy).
>
> I am interested in cost savings though: Specifically, if an IFR RV-10
> is a must (even if using steam gauges), what is the lowest reasonable
> target figure? I find it very hard to come in at <130. But I have
> heard several say lower. What am I missing?
>
> I have heard the following suggestions which I like very much:
> Don't paint right away. -Jesse, how does this change if stored
> outside?
> Store RV-10 outside (ouch, I don't know if I can live with this). How
> well will an RV-10 endure VA weather with covers? If I know up front
> it will be stored outside, any special priming areas I should
> consider?
> Save money on engine - don't get new (with conflicting ideas on how
> much this saves) - various posters
> Buy steam gauges for first panel (but still IFR), wait to go glass
> IFR for later if mission/desires dictate. Try to keep panel
> instruments from first panel revision, useful for 2nd panel down the
> road. - Linn
> Go slow build to save...-various
>
> John, thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate the comparison with the
> Archer and like Jesse's idea about fewer wasted pit stops.
>
> Bill, thanks for your comparison of the archer. I would be interested
> if you have any numbers on how much savings can be expected in the
> maintenance. What would be your yearly numbers for each?
>
> What would others consider a minimalist RV-10 IFR panel?
>
> Thanks for all your help,
> Best regards,
> Jim Clark
>
>
Message 16
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Well, I am sure some of you are wondering how the meeting with the FAA went
today. I will try to get around to going into more detail for those who
want to know in the next couple of days, but the short version is that it
went extremely well. Many thanks to whoever "squealed" anonymously to the
FAA trying to hurt us (if you are reading this, it backfired unless you
truly were trying to help us :-) ), because it actually helped a lot both in
our understanding of what is and is not (probably, since these rules are
changing and even they don't really know where they are going yet)
appropriate, and in their understanding more fully what we are about and how
we are going about it. We will see when the dust of all of this
rule-rewriting settled how things actually stand, but we believe we have
made great strides towards complying with the rules that are not even set
yet, and there is an outside chance that we may even be able to be a test
case for helping to determine how the rules are written/worded. Time will
tell!
do not archive
Speaking of which, does anybody know if the above tag keeps the posts out of
the online forum? I have seen my DNA posts on the forum and wondered if
maybe they are removed after a certain amount of time. I have e-mailed Matt
without a reply. If they are posted there and left, that would certainly
make a difference in the amount I would be willing to write to the list,
since they truly would be archived, even when I don't want them to be. Is
if possible that having some other punctuation touching makes the phrase
unrecognized by the server?
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
Message 17
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| Subject: | re: infant ear protectors |
When i was at oshkosh another 10 pilot & his wife discussed using dog hearing
protectors to protect their infant's ears. Does anyone have a pirep on this
technique or any other suggestions to protect a four month old child's ears.
The 10 is a family plane, right? 728DD 113 hours and loving it!
**************************************
Check out free AOL at
of free high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and much more.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: re: infant ear protectors |
We had both kids flying by 5 weeks. The early months were done by
using the kid carrier. The part that normally gets the sun shield
canopy was covered by a big slab of eggcrate style foam covered in
large bath towels. That deadened the sound drastically in the
car carrier. When the kids came out to feed, we put a blanket
over them. They slept a lot.
As they got older, we used a very lightweight pair of hearing
protectors designed for construction or shooting. They folded up
really small, and thus fit their head too. When they didn't
want to wear those, we made them wear "macs ear plugs" that you
can get from walmart.
After they learned kids music, they liked using ANR headsets to
listen to kids songs. We had kids sized headsets initially.
Now, I find that the Bose headsets fit young kids great, and
are more comfortable for them...but by the time they hit
4 or 5 years they should be ready for nice headsets and plenty
of DVD's and music.
Traveling with kids is great. Do bring pairs of those foam
earplugs that you use in loud commercial situations. I found
them very helpful during potty training and diaper changes....
used in the nose. ;)
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
PILOTDDS@aol.com wrote:
> When i was at oshkosh another 10 pilot & his wife discussed using dog
> hearing protectors to protect their infant's ears. Does anyone have a
> pirep on this technique or any other suggestions to protect a four month
> old child's ears.
> The 10 is a family plane, right? 728DD 113 hours and loving it!
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Engine Mount Hole Alignment to Firewall |
I have "encouraged" my engine mount into position while installing bolts. I
wonder what real problems there could be in that little bit of static
tension, as long as it's not using a winch to stretch the thing. I'm
thinking that it may reduce the amount of settling that many experience.
Rob
#392
Cleaning up emails from a week of vacation - need a blackberry!
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Niko
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:23 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Engine Mount Hole Alignment to Firewall
I tried to drill the engine mount holes in the firewall this weekend. After
drilling the left upper hole first (pilots side) I noticed that the firewall
pilot hole on the upper right side is about 3/16 inch off (outboard.) The
lower holes are not too bad. I sent an email to Vans asking if I should
simply stretch the engine mount frame into place since it appears I can pull
it into place with just my hands (no clamps ). Here is the response.
"Since the engine mount weldment moves somewhat when it it
removed from the jig, we don't expect all the holes to line up. If
after drilling the upper left hole, some of the other holes seem to be
fairly close, drill them first. Drill the upper right hole last. Don't
force the mount into position."
I am including this since when I did a search on the archives I found
references to forcing the mount into position.
Following the recommended procedure it would be interesting if one has to
replace an engine mount frame. I hope they all move the same amount after
removal from the jig.
Niko
40188
Message 20
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| Subject: | IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
Jim
You are adding unnecessary expenses by wanting more than a good IFR
platform.. Price out Dual grand rapids efis, SL30, 300 xl the Gtx 327, drop
down in quality to Maybe a 1000II audio, and a lesser auto pilot and you
will save a lot of money, and you will have a certified IFR aircraft, that
is better than what's in every DC-8 or 707 in the world.
2 cents worth
Bob K
Panel and fiberglass and wires and oxygen system and a few rivets now and
then just to keep in practice.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S. Clark IV
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
John,
I'm not sure I followed everything in your post, or how it was meant to
apply to me.
Just to clear things up: I am not interested in a minimalist VFR panel. I
will build an IFR plane or I will buy an IFR TC aircraft. I am trying to
budget these options with some detail.
My mission is quite clear to me: End up with a 4 seat IFR platform that I
can use for several years (it doesn't have to be the top of the line or my
final configuration for the first few years). This platform may have steam
gauges (archer or other) or electronic flight instruments or glass flight
instruments (RV10).
My question was intended to get people's ideas on a reasonable minimal cost
IFR panel for the RV10. It seems that roughly no matter how I cut it:
Quickbuild + Shipping + New Engine +FWF = 100k. Avionics + Finishing is
where I have choices and drastically different costs.
For example one possible IFR option:
2 GRT EFIS 1 + EIS
8000B audio panel
GNS480
DigiFlight-IIVSGV
SL30 NavCom
GTX327
ADI, Alt, AS, Compass
The above adds roughly 33k. The remainder in the spreadsheet version 3 I
have sent out seem to come to 14k more (including some nice hidden costs
that Anh sent out)
Naturally, I will do everything within my power and budget not to "sell
myself short".
Best regards,
Jim Clark
-Still learning the ropes...
On Feb 20, 2007, at 9:39 PM, John W. Cox wrote:
The minimalist panel is not IFR it is VFR as VAN designed with steam
gages. Stay away from induction and control surface icing and get the
most out of a minimalist budget. Save panel real estate for the point in
time you have the amended perspective. You will be quite pleased. The
only big change since it was first introduced is the inflation rate
applied , by VAN to the kit components and the drying up of used IO-540
cores as VAN had originally budgeted. Randy used a reconditioned prop
and there has been little discussion on the value of that route.
Know your mission, do not sell yourself short.
John Cox
#40600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James S.
Clark IV
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:53 PM
Subject: RV10-List: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing)
<james.s.clark@comcast.net>
Linn, I like the idea on the panel. I'd be interested in hearing more
about your panel choices.
Tim, sorry for the confusion: no I don't plan to borrow all 150k, but
for budgeting I think it is good to plan for the lost earnings that
those dollars could be used for if not tied up in an aircraft (or toy).
I am interested in cost savings though: Specifically, if an IFR RV-10
is a must (even if using steam gauges), what is the lowest reasonable
target figure? I find it very hard to come in at <130. But I have
heard several say lower. What am I missing?
I have heard the following suggestions which I like very much:
Don't paint right away. -Jesse, how does this change if stored outside?
Store RV-10 outside (ouch, I don't know if I can live with this). How
well will an RV-10 endure VA weather with covers? If I know up front
it will be stored outside, any special priming areas I should consider?
Save money on engine - don't get new (with conflicting ideas on how
much this saves) - various posters
Buy steam gauges for first panel (but still IFR), wait to go glass
IFR for later if mission/desires dictate. Try to keep panel
instruments from first panel revision, useful for 2nd panel down the
road. - Linn
Go slow build to save...-various
John, thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate the comparison with the
Archer and like Jesse's idea about fewer wasted pit stops.
Bill, thanks for your comparison of the archer. I would be interested
if you have any numbers on how much savings can be expected in the
maintenance. What would be your yearly numbers for each?
What would others consider a minimalist RV-10 IFR panel?
Thanks for all your help,
Best regards,
Jim Clark
- The RV10-List Email Forum -
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: IFR RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
Jim,
Try to find someone already flying that did what you are trying to do.
They are out there. Also, one has to be willing to buy other brands INS
TEAD of GARMIN/KING if you wanna truly cuts costs. For example, A nice
Garmin 496 is roughly $3500? There are other GPS units that will fit
your bill for $1000. SAVINGS = $2500 Also, a Garmin SL30 is $3250
? A new Icom 200 and a yellow tagged Nav radio can be had for $2250. SA
VINGS = $1000. I would love the greatest and latest from Garmin too,
but I choose not to pay their PREMIUM price versus other Avionics that
do what I need. I flew a Cherokee 140 all day yesterday..............th
e newest thing in the IFR panel was a pair of KING 155's. The owner was
a happy pilot,,,,,,,,buy to meet your needs and your budget............
NOT to impress your friends and fellow pilots!
Dean 40449
________________________________________________________________________
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om/products/online_calendar.pd?c=uol5752
<html><P>Jim,</P>
<P>Try to find someone already flying that did what you are trying to do
. They are out there. Also, one has to be willing to buy oth
er brands INSTEAD of GARMIN/KING if you wanna truly cuts costs. Fo
r example, A nice Garmin 496 is roughly $3500? There a
re other GPS units that will fit your bill for $1000. SAVINGS =
$2500 Also, a Garmin SL30 is $3250? A new
Icom 200 and a yellow tagged Nav radio can be had for $2250. SAVINGS =
$1000. I would love the greatest and latest from Garmin too, but
I choose not to pay their PREMIUM price versus other Avionics that
do what I need. I flew a Cherokee 140 all day yesterday..........
....the newest thing in the IFR panel was a pair of KING 155's. Th
e owner was a happy pilot,,,,,,,,buy to meet your needs and your budget.
........... NOT to impress your friends and fellow pilots!</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Dean 40449</P>
<font face="Times-New-Roman" size="2"><br><br>______________________
__________________________________________________<br>
<a href="http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=197335&u=http://www.american
greetings.com/products/online_calendar.pd?c=uol5752"><B>FREE</B> Remin
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Click <B>HERE</B> and never forget a Birthday or Anniversary again!</a><
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